Latest / Identity at the Center / #202 - Trust in Identity with Eve Maler

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#202 - Trust in Identity with Eve Maler · Identity at the Center

0:01
This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with I
0:08
am this is the go-to podcast. So if you're a beginner or an
0:14
expert or anyone in between you've found your new home
0:18
welcome to Identity at the center now your host Jim
0:23
McDonald and Jeff Steadman Welcome to the identity of the
0:30
center podcast I'm Jeff and that's Jim.
0:32
Hey Jim. Hey Jeff, how are you?
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Not so bad yourself. Good.
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You're laughing because you see me smiling.
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As you know I got something funny.
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Something do I don't know. It's funny.
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You've been on a roller of the whole bunch of Downers recently.
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So hopefully it's funny. Yeah, yeah.
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Well I think this one's kind of funny so I normally don't do
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this but I mean everybody knows this is the trust and identity
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talk with email or so even I got together a little bit earlier to
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talk about What we're going to talk about and we came up with
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an idea, which is that everybody's going to think we're
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going to talk about zero trust, right?
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As part of trust and identity and we came up with a drinking
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game idea. So anytime someone says zero
1:13
trust on this episode, you got to do a shot but if we're not
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talking zero trust that drink then nobody's gonna be drinking
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or is that the intent? Well, the idea is that I think
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somebody's going to say at some point but Yeah, I mean the
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intent. Probably best thing for you is
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not to be doing shots because I asked you about what you're
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going to do tonight. And by the way, it is Friday.
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So it's Friday night and you're going to be working on
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statements work. So yeah, it's a funny Friday we
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shots. Yeah, I'm currently in Boston,
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still recording from a hotel room.
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And yeah, I will be working on what we statements of work,
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which is a good thing. That means that, you know,
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people are engaging with us to do stuff, not going to complain
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about that. Not the most exciting Friday,
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but that's fine. And yeah, and then I fly home
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Saturday and then I think I turn around and fly back out on
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Tuesday, so I got a pretty busy schedule.
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Actually, for travel, I think I'm on the road, every week
2:08
until the end of March right now and for those traveling men.
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Yeah, I'm a traveling man. And right now it's today is
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February 17th. So I think when this goes out,
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I'll be a couple weeks later but that's probably, that's part of
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the reason why I'm traveling so much as we're recording kind of
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work around that travel schedule, so good times.
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Yeah, I was going to make. I was going to make a comment
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about your back. And being so cool for a hotel
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like most hotels on have ceilings that look like that.
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It looks like you're out of a ski lodge or something, but as
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actually, it made me reflect on its on a couple calls this week
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with identity access management professionals.
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And it seems like 50% of people in identity and access
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management play instruments, primarily the guitar.
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And I mean, what better guests to have on the podcast that you
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may learn. When we're going to talk about,
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you know, playing rock and roll and doing identity and access
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management. Yeah.
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ZZ off Fame. So, you know, it's cool to have
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her on and she can bring her golden pipes.
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I think to the, to the episode, before we get to that, we're
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going to be at Gartner in a couple weeks, right?
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So we're going to be onstage and hopefully having a very
3:22
interesting and different show that maybe people are used to it
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Gartner, when we talked with, Enrique and Becky.
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It's on. I know you think it's going to
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go. I think it's doing a fantastic.
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I mean a lot of the questions that the community of already
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sent our way are really good. I think, what your point you
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pointed out in an earlier episode which was the idea that
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a lot of the questions are coming from the same angle.
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So we're going to have to like combine those because we only
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have like a half hour on stage so we can ask 20 questions.
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But if we get three or four or five, really good questions, I
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think it'll be fantastic. Then, of course, hard questions.
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Do not just softballs right, exactly.
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Yeah. Not like, like we do on the on
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the podcast, right, but it's gonna be more like Meet the
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Press. No, I mean, of course,
4:14
professional of course Matic, right.
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All that stuff, but all that goes, hopefully questions that
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you haven't heard before asked. And answered, you know, millions
4:23
of times before in different ways.
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Yeah. I'm trying to find another
4:26
conference but good different. I'm excited about the
4:29
conference. I'm also excited about the idea
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to center community event that we're going to be holding on
4:35
Tuesday night. So anybody is a listener of the
4:38
podcast, regular listener, want to get out and meet Jeff and I
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meet other people who listen to the podcast, please reach out
4:45
and make sure that we get you that registration link so you
4:49
can sign up. I think space is going to be
4:52
somewhat limited. So why should they get ahold of
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you send a message on LinkedIn? I think the best way to send a
4:57
message on. Tin.
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I mean, we might just through the link right on LinkedIn, but
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I'm a little worried about like that turning into some kind of
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like spam bot program. You know, we wind up getting I
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just kind of thousands of stuff like that.
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Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, all those kind of things,
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but best case, I think, just reach out to me and you and, you
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know, anybody who's out there listening to the podcast on a
5:25
regular basis, we'd like to confirm you anyway.
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You're personally invited. How about that?
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All right, why do we get to our topic which is trust in
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identity. We've got Eve.
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Mailer again, she's the chief technology officer at Ford Rock.
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Welcome back to the show. Eve, it is such a pleasure to be
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here guys. It's and I guess I'm going to
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see you at at Gartner because that's kind of around the corner
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for me. Yeah, exciting stuff.
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And maybe if we get lucky, we might even hear.
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Sabrina who I hear is traveling with you.
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She is currently. Traveling with me.
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That's my little Pomeranian Chihuahua miniature poodle up.
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So we'll be lucky if we get to hear that.
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We always encourage our guests and their pets to come on.
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And we have yet to have one make a peep on the show.
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So yeah, that's not that bad. Yeah.
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Now it now for sure it'll happen right?
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Well, so we were looking back into our many archives of shows
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now and you've been on the show now three and a half times.
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You were way back with us very early on episode number 48, we
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talked about um a episode 116, we talk through for Drought
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consumer identity breach report which is really fascinating
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report. So I'm looking forward to the
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next one that comes out and then we did also obviously today but
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the half episode is the one we did around?
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What is the difference between digital identity and identity
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and access management? And we asked identity friends,
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you know what was their take on it and you were kind enough to
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send in a response? What I want to do now is
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actually play You said and this would have been 50 episodes.
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Now. Roughly so almost a year.
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These are busy. Yeah, we're not so over here.
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So I'm going to play it and let's see what you said and then
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going to see if has your Viewpoint or answer change.
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Let me play that clip now. Identity language has been a
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contentious subject for a long time thinking back to the
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beginnings of iiw, the internet identity Workshop, the original
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effort by that Community was to actually Develop a lexicon
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comprehensive lexicon. It was tough going then and I
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think it's always tough going in this area.
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How I see digital identity as a phrase is that it applies to the
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users of or the interactors with identity technology.
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And I see, I am as being about the implementation of identity
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technology in whatever guys. So, when it comes to digital
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identity, the kind of the user perspective, you know, most
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people interact with identity in a way that actually isn't all
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that Pleasant identity theft is probably the first thing that
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comes to mind. And a lot of times that
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interaction is actually in an offline fashion versus an online
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runtime authentication. For example, fashion When it
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comes to I am that term itself is, is a bucket for a lot of
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other different things and sometimes they overlap.
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But I am sometimes there may be a little bit apart.
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So identity management, kind of life cycle, considerations
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access management, really all the runtime considerations and
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also governance and administration which gets into
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the world of really operational things.
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And there's this phrase that I really like lately bolts, which
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is business, operational, legal Technical and societal.
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So that's kind of the game that you get into when you talk about
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both the above, the water user considerations and the below,
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the water, implementer considerations one, of the
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things that I find when I just talked with ordinary people out
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there who don't do what I do about, what you could call the
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jobs to be done of digital identity.
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Is that all of the things people expect to get from this sort of
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Technology It cross Cuts would things businesses want as well.
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You know, I have a new Venn diagram about this where, I
9:18
think, in terms of protection, and personalization, and
9:22
payment, and people, so there are unique needs among all of
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those categories and they cross cut quite a lot of things like
9:30
achieving security is actually something that's welcomed by
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people. And by businesses, it applies
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across all of the identity language.
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Okay, so a couple things there, Eve one, I love that you called
9:44
other people. Ordinary People not weirdos in
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the identity space. Second of all has your thoughts
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on, you know what you said there?
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Change it all evolved or do you still think they hold true?
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Um, I I still represent those remarks I suppose, I would say
10:00
my understanding of the of the distinction, between the user
10:04
perspective and the implemented perspective has deepened.
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Since you know since that time you guys know I run the
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Innovation Labs here at Ford Rock and and you know I've been
10:15
working this great team and all last year we were putting
10:18
together a kind of a fully articulated long-term Vision so
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that we could be the Change. We want to see in the world for
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our customers and for their users and the topics all broke
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out really neatly into identity users and identity implementers.
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And I think, empathizing with users and interactors is
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something we can obviously do more of.
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It's one of the toughest things to do and when I go out to speak
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with our customers, who are, you know, there to tend to be large
10:51
Enterprises, many of them have. June's for the next hundred
10:57
years because some of them have been around 100 years.
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And you know here they are doing digital transformation and
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everything they kind of they do care a lot about the
11:05
implementation, right? They want to do that, right?
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But the reason they do it is for all the people who interact
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whether its Workforce or consumer or whatever.
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So I kind of find a split useful in my daily job, so that's good.
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So we're still on the same path. I thought was interesting about
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that. Clip was an end.
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I still say to this day when we, when we got all the answers back
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it seems like everybody in the The identity space had a
11:27
different answer and I like them.
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All right. I listen to them.
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Yeah, that's good, that's good. No, I agree with that one.
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Well, this works right them? No, I don't wanna Force Franco.
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Well, that's the interesting part, right?
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It was nobody was wrong. Like, I felt like everybody was
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right. And I think that sometimes, you
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know, speaks to maybe a little complexity sometimes and the
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Nuance that gets lost in identity conversations and that
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context matters. And you know, where do you?
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You know, what is your definition of digital identity?
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Compared to I am, right? That was the question and
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everyone's got a different Viewpoint, what did find
12:00
interesting, was the one person who sent in their response, Adam
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from Texas A&M, he's not an identity, vendor reseller
12:12
consultant, right? He's running it in the real
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world as I'll call it. Yeah, yeah.
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Doing identity for, you know, for real things and he had a
12:19
totally different answer than everyone else again, not wrong,
12:21
or not, right compared to everyone else's, but was just a
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totally different different definition.
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So It was fascinating. Correction.
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Yeah, how it all worked out. We're going to talk about trust
12:31
today and I think before we get too far along, I'm not going to
12:35
say the Z word because we're not talking about that.
12:37
Not only way to get drunk floor there, you know, pull over to
12:39
the side of the road. You know, dude, do bad things or
12:42
maybe and what I'd like to figure out first is, you know,
12:47
that definition? What are we calling trust?
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Like how do you, how do you define it to people that you
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interact with it's so tough. I actually had a really good
12:57
conversation with my bass player back.
12:59
When I was in Seattle about this, he was a psychologist by
13:01
training and he defined it as just you know, sort of feeling
13:07
like you had a guarantee of somebody's next behavior and it
13:11
didn't necessarily mean good behavior like you know if
13:14
somebody in your family you know constantly got drunk or whatever
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and you know, acted badly, you could trust that they were going
13:23
to do something, right? And that's not necessarily a
13:25
good thing. Thing.
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I thought that was interesting, but in our line of work, you
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know, I think people sort of keep on trying to steer around
13:32
the word because it just means so many different things to
13:35
different audiences. We pick different words like
13:37
Assurance, right? So recently I was, I was
13:42
speaking, I guess was a TI C on what it means to package, ethics
13:48
into a technology stack. And I had found a couple of
13:51
different definitions and I think these are my two favorite
13:54
definitions. One of them comes from Rachel
13:57
botsman, who's a, she's an expert in digital trust.
14:00
And she did this Ted Talk on how we've stopped trusting
14:04
institutions and started trusting strangers.
14:07
And her definition was trust, is a confident relationship to the
14:12
unknown. And I kind of like that one
14:16
because I think, particularly, from the perspective of the
14:19
individuals that we serve, so kind of like those identity
14:22
users, I think it talks to what what they're looking for.
14:28
They want sort of certainty, some level of certainty, maybe
14:32
it harks back to my bass player / psychologist.
14:37
But there's another definition that I liked and I like to pair
14:39
with it and this comes from my colleague, Alan Foster.
14:41
You many folks know, and his definition is Trust is shared
14:45
vulnerability, the consequences and I think this one's, it's
14:49
important in a certain way, it puts an onus.
14:52
First of all on the non-person entities, in the equation, you
14:55
can sort of, okay, if it's shared or you can even imagine
14:58
like employee-employer relationship.
15:00
You know, it has to be shared. That's what contracts try and
15:03
do. It covers even
15:04
business-to-business Notions of trust and it points.
15:08
The way towards figuring out. This is one of my favorite
15:11
subjects. The incentives in an ecosystem.
15:14
Because if you can figure out, who's involved, durable the
15:16
consequences that incentivizes bad behavior.
15:20
And I was thinking about this a little bit when I was listening
15:22
to your great podcast with Sarah recently because you were, you
15:26
guys were talking about the tension between enabling
15:29
anonymity online for, you know, being able to make comments, you
15:32
know, for people who are in tough situations and the desire
15:35
to authenticate to protect against that invulnerability to
15:38
consequences. So that's what I like to think
15:40
about. Well, what's the real job to be
15:43
done here? Thinking about, you know,
15:45
product management framework that I mentioned before you want
15:49
to ensure that the real goal, the quarter inch hole in the
15:52
wall versus the quarter inch drill bit in the situation is
15:56
ensure, everyone has consequences for bad digital
16:00
behavior and that includes four people which is why we
16:02
authenticate now but you know there's people are proposing
16:05
different ways to do that. So if anybody who tuned in to
16:08
this podcast, hoping to hear about trust between active
16:12
directory, domains or I think technical like that is probably
16:16
already stopped the episode, right?
16:18
We're going to be talking about a different kind of trust.
16:20
We're not going to talk about zero, trust drink up.
16:25
This will be my third drinking game by the way, actually forth
16:28
because I invented one about password list yesterday.
16:30
Okay, okay, well you're on the right show, so we're going to
16:34
talk about trust in three different stovepipes if you will
16:39
or three different context. So it's trust in the practice of
16:43
I I am trust and bios and Trust in.
16:47
I am vendors and by the way you work for one of those so you're
16:51
the perfect guest to talk about that but I think first and
16:54
foremost, you know, we'd be we're going to talk about that
16:57
trust in the practice of I am. And how could we not talk about
17:03
self Sovereign ID and verifiable credentials?
17:07
I think trust is a major thing that needs to be talked about in
17:11
those two topics. Don't you?
17:14
Just go ahead and riff. I mean I know this is something
17:16
you think a lot about, I like riffing.
17:21
I don't play guitar though. Yeah.
17:24
And and you know, you're referring to, you know, ad trust
17:27
kind of trust domains people. Often in our line of work.
17:31
Put things into buckets technical trust in business
17:33
trust. And really, what, I think
17:37
decentralized identity tries to do is to sort of marry those, in
17:41
a way. I mean, like I was just talking
17:42
to folks from the trust, overripe.
17:43
He Foundation where that's literally what they're trying to
17:45
do. They have two stacks that unify,
17:48
that's what they're trying to do.
17:50
But like, even with technical trust in the mix, I can't help
17:54
but get a little bit philosophical because you know
17:57
if you look way back to kind of like the beanie of the really
18:00
exciting blockchain conversation, that was my first
18:03
drinking game, it was about making things quote trust list.
18:06
Some people put it that way. That was kind of how a lot of
18:10
these conversations started and that is ironic with respect to
18:13
that zero thing, trustless trust free now with zero.
18:21
Hey I'm I got this shot right up to my lips at the moment.
18:25
I am. So going for a drink Friday
18:27
night, I don't write statements work.
18:29
I'm just saying, guys, but it sounds like a lot of fun.
18:34
So, decentralized architectures generally are You know, they're
18:39
making a pitch or evenly Distributing vulnerability to
18:43
consequences and I might describe that as, you know more
18:47
like resilient Mutual trust, write a better job of mutual,
18:51
trust, something like that, here's the challenge and
18:55
decentralized systems. There's always the possibility,
18:59
indeed, it's kind of a likelihood that over time.
19:03
Sometimes very quickly, you get what I call Insidious re
19:07
centralization. Which messes with the incentives
19:10
in one way or another. So through exchanges through
19:13
aggregated Services, you look at the crypto world and and you can
19:17
imagine looking at that in light of decentralized identity
19:21
verifiable credentials and so that verifiable credentials
19:24
World. It kind of makes a run at being
19:28
able to trust that it was something was issued properly.
19:31
Some piece of information was issued by somebody you care
19:35
about and you know exact yeah I'd go for that.
19:38
I leave that and also making Services more trustworthy.
19:43
I can't say that without sort of air quotes in this particular
19:45
show, for example, through a technique of revocation allowing
19:51
somebody to like share piece of data and then pull it back in a
19:55
technological sense. Not making a, you know, right of
19:58
a razor request. You know, I'm saying,
20:01
unfortunately, you know, even sharing a few little pieces of
20:05
information are very likely to be correlated.
20:08
Well, it doesn't take much and that's a kind of Insidious re
20:12
centralization that it's easy to kind of just sort of skip over
20:15
in our thinking. So I think we still have a tough
20:18
road ahead of us in improving things.
20:21
We have to be very careful how we Implement and very careful
20:23
how we set up systems and very careful how we setup ecosystems.
20:27
Yeah. How we Implement kind of segues
20:29
into my next question or my next topic which was really thinking
20:33
about organizations or I am practitioners trusting there.
20:38
I deep he's so whether it's an on-prem product or a product in
20:42
the cloud to authenticate users and to do it with high levels of
20:46
certainty that there are systems laying the right people in.
20:51
Not the not the wrong people, but there's an aspect of
20:54
configurability. So, even in the cloud, you can
20:58
set your own password policy, things like that.
21:00
So it's kind of a shared responsibility, right?
21:03
It's not like how I trust them to do the job for me.
21:07
There's still some of it that falls back on the practitioner
21:11
the organization. Yeah.
21:14
So our let me ask, are you thinking about work, force users
21:19
when you talk about that or just all kind of any users.
21:22
I think you could be any, I think it could be any.
21:25
So I mean obviously I think the responsibility does go in kind
21:28
of all directions. And what's interesting is giving
21:32
choice to end users, doesn't have to drain In assurance out
21:39
of a system. I mean, that's one of the things
21:41
that missed 800-637-8170 shared language about, you know the
21:48
quality of what you know some authentication that's been made
21:52
or the quality of all the backing systems.
21:55
And so I think that you can give choice in that context in a
21:58
really interesting way and by the way, giving choice to users
22:02
is a way of giving them that confidence.
22:05
And I would say, allowing To trust you being trustworthy
22:09
because you're all anybody really wants is convenience and
22:12
value and control. So if you can give them some
22:15
control while assuring yourself that you know, quality hasn't
22:20
degraded in, you know, how you're testing them.
22:24
I think that's super powerful. I'm not something.
22:26
You know, it's something we do actually inside for Dracula with
22:29
our, with our own, how we log into our own systems allows, a
22:33
great deal of choice including like Fido authenticators.
22:36
So I put the fact that you're going to be on the show out on
22:41
the ID Pro slack Channel and friend of the show Simon Moffat.
22:46
Who by the way I'm sure you remember.
22:48
As a former forgerock. Yeah, yeah.
22:50
He's a friend of weird rock to me.
22:52
Yeah, friend of for drug to and he commented on that topic that
22:57
I was mentioning that the user Trust of the IDP is an even more
23:03
interesting question. And so my question is, how do
23:06
Idps become more trusted by user.
23:09
So how do you move that? Move that bar move that line
23:13
and, you know, thinking of it from a practitioner perspective?
23:17
I always go down to kind of like the basics.
23:20
So, is this getting to the point of saying that if I have
23:23
stronger controls by, you know, require things like MFA.
23:28
Now, I'm going to increase my level of trust with the user
23:34
right? As is that kind of what he's
23:36
getting. Being at or is there something
23:38
beneath the surface? I thought it was an intriguing
23:41
question and I really you know, shout out to Simon for a very
23:44
intriguing question. I do think, you know, people
23:48
aren't generally aware of. You know what an IDP is, they
23:50
probably don't really know how to spell or capitalized.
23:54
IDP, they do have relationships with service providers and the
24:00
service Predator might be in an IDP role, might be an
24:03
architectural and the Paul's relationship with their service
24:08
providers in their life. It's kind of changing and people
24:10
are getting more suspicious cynical Savvy and there was a
24:18
had a great opportunity to do a white paper along with one
24:22
trust. And one of the things that one
24:25
of the stats that we were quoting from their this from a
24:28
couple years ago, Edelman is the the pr agency, huge PR agency.
24:32
And it does this annual trust barometer, which seems relevant
24:35
to this conversation. Ian and so from a couple of
24:37
years ago, they found that 60% of their upon the respondents
24:42
were saying that their default tendency is to distrust
24:46
something until they see evidence.
24:48
That is trustworthy. So that I mean that's kind of a
24:51
number to put to my assertion and forty percent of the
24:56
respondents said there are Brands they love but no longer
24:59
buy from because they don't trust them.
25:01
Now I'm one of those 40 percent at the high plurality, right?
25:06
A recent survey for Magna and catch found that 74% of
25:11
respondent Highly value data privacy.
25:13
And this was about 20 percent 20 percentage points more than
25:17
other modern, ethical issues of the day like sustainability.
25:21
And I think it makes sense to me because it like it could
25:23
personally affect you, right? It can, it can mess up your life
25:27
if you can't rely on some of these things.
25:28
So I do think there's a role for how practitioners Implement
25:34
these systems and there's an Awful lot to do with the
25:37
experience design, which is part of implementation of identity.
25:40
No question about it. It's also about ensuring there's
25:46
auditability and transparency for some time.
25:51
Now, I've talked about this kind of, I don't know, modern data,
25:54
privacy 2.0 pyramid of things that kind of make up privacy,
25:59
and at the bottom is data protection.
26:02
You know, that's what the original data protection
26:04
directive in Europe was called, and What they meant by privacy
26:07
but we piled more stuff on as requirements.
26:11
So in a modern kind of GDP are and all of its cousins era data
26:15
transparency. You know what you tell people,
26:17
you know about them. What you tell them you want from
26:19
them is, it's, you know, becoming equally as important.
26:23
It's starting to be mandated. And then, at that tippy top is
26:26
data control. What controls do you?
26:27
Give people? What choices do you give people?
26:31
And all of that adds up to different kind of knobs and
26:35
buttons. And you know switches that you
26:38
can use to engender trust from people.
26:42
That was a good question by Simon.
26:44
I think it very nuanced, I don't want to build them up too much
26:47
because he also asked if you get royalties on sam'l Integrations
26:53
and I was thinking like how amazing would that be?
26:56
That would be amazing. But you know we wouldn't be
26:58
talking to you if you were here World here have a standard and
27:02
of course you know in 2001 when we finished version 1 of Sam
27:06
We're like see our world here. It is, go use it, but you may
27:09
now begin and it took to like 2005.
27:12
So I learned to listen that I live five years in the future
27:16
but yeah, no royalties. That's why, you know, I'm sorry
27:19
for you but it's lucky for us because we probably wouldn't be
27:21
talking if you were anybody was, I guess that speaks to like
27:25
just, you know, the open source of having Open Standards, why
27:29
they were so important to not walk behind, you know, some sort
27:31
of cost I think. But I just thought that was
27:34
funny that I mean, you know, I did write a book once sgml the
27:43
precursor to XML but you know, we used in sam'l and other
27:47
things and I did get royalties off of that and it wasn't enough
27:51
to retire and I can assure you. Although with the advance I
27:53
bought a pool cue the time. I was playing a lot of
27:57
Billiards, I'm not good, but that was what I chose to do and
28:00
I was working for a company in Ann Arbor and I this was before
28:04
all the constraints and I could like walk onto A plane with with
28:07
a pool cue and Cody an arm. So it's kind of cool.
28:11
My story of royalties. Yeah.
28:13
No. That part kind of like if you
28:15
were getting royalties from sam'l, it kind of reminds me of
28:19
that scene in office space where Peters like you know, the penny
28:23
tray. Well, that's where people are
28:25
taking full pennies. I'm only talking about a
28:27
fraction of a penny. So yeah.
28:33
Yeah. Out of two.
28:34
So back on like my very simple level of thinking I think you
28:38
kind of like went way deeper but I did have a follow-up to that
28:42
which was I've heard people make this statement that having
28:46
passed wordless somehow makes people feel like it's less
28:50
secure. I think if somebody thinks is
28:52
less secure that would reduce their trust.
28:54
So what do you think of that? I did have some experiences and
28:59
this is back when I was at Forrester and I had some
29:01
conversations with some Financial Services folks.
29:04
And I think certainly experience is more recently, born this out
29:07
as well. Certain folks that you're trying
29:12
to protect like high-net-worth individuals.
29:14
For example, can become very suspicious if they just sort of
29:18
silently get into their service and you know I had heard of hard
29:23
tokens you know authenticators being used with that.
29:27
If it population specifically to like give them confidence that
29:32
everything was safe. I do think that it's going to
29:36
end up being sort of experiential and generational
29:38
over time. You know like the conversations
29:41
I used to have with people on planes 10, 15 years ago about
29:45
what do you do? Well, you end up, you can talk
29:48
to Sarah, you're here of users and passwords.
29:50
I do that. It was like, then you have the
29:52
conversation about how much you hate passwords and I kind of
29:54
still happens now. But more often I run into,
29:57
People these days who use password managers who have a
30:01
password strategy and I've always likened it to.
30:03
Well, you have a house key strategy, you know, so more
30:06
people have a password strategy because they see what's going
30:09
on. They've gotten more Savvy about
30:11
that and I do think that as a short as those service providers
30:16
idps provide visible assurances to a user about.
30:22
You know, it doesn't the personalization aspect, you
30:25
know, in the little clip you play it.
30:27
I was You about this Venn diagram, where I've got, you
30:29
know, protection and personalization and payments and
30:31
people, it's personalization can be valuable mutually and
30:38
ensuring that that person knows that, you know who they are, and
30:41
they know who you are. And, like, you know, that
30:44
actually is that helps you build the relationship between you
30:47
that's valuable stuff. And so, I think there's lots of
30:49
ways to do that and password list experiences.
30:54
As you know, we see them in their best expression with, you
30:57
know, Really, well-orchestrated Journey will give those signals,
31:02
I think so. I think it's going to be
31:03
possible to do. I don't know.
31:05
I was just talking with folks this week, saying, you know, how
31:09
movies started to have this like, modern TVs, have this
31:12
faster frame rate than they used to and movies.
31:17
Start looking really weird. You know, they did it so they
31:19
can capture Sports Action. And yet now it makes movies look
31:21
like a bad soap operas. And I really hated that and, you
31:26
know, sort of argued with With my husband about like what frame
31:28
rate we should set and will forever is how you knew you were
31:31
watching a soap opera, because we do it different than anything
31:34
else. I'm a high frame rate fanatic, I
31:37
love 60 frames or more, but I get the purity of a 24 or 30.
31:43
There were, there was also, like, you know, I'm thinking of
31:46
like Monty Python sketch has because they only used film when
31:49
they went Outdoors to to record. So you can tell whether it's
31:52
been doors, are not divorcing, just for that.
31:54
But in any case, my point being People can get used to the new
31:59
paradigm, I think. And I think, as long as those
32:02
signals are there presented to them, I mean, authentication is
32:07
moving to that direction that Bob Blakely called 20 years ago.
32:11
You know, from authentication to recognition being recognized in
32:16
a non-creepy respectful fashion is going to become the way of
32:22
doing things. And I think, you know, I was a
32:24
skeptic ten years ago, literally ten years ago and a Couple
32:27
months. When I was at Forrester, I wrote
32:29
a blog post called, kill your password policies.
32:34
Because remember, Matt Honan was on the cover of wired with the
32:37
long read. That was about how he got hacked
32:39
and passwords, or a nightmare and blah, blah, blah.
32:41
And that was all true and it is true.
32:43
And my reaction then was, I think it's going to be really
32:45
hard to root out static, shared Secrets really hard, so in in
32:51
service of a better experience, get rid of those stupid password
32:53
policies that are doing nothing, you know, bit strength is not
32:57
helping us. Essentially.
32:58
And now we all know that and is took it out of 800 actually
33:02
degree and so we're in a better place now and people have
33:05
learned and now we're on to the MFA profiling bombing, but I do
33:10
have to remind you, that Venn diagrams was the original.
33:13
I am drinking game. So remember, diagrams were
33:19
wasn't a drinking game around Venn diagrams.
33:21
How did I just that one? Know.
33:23
I'm kind of tongue-in-cheek saying that but it was like Venn
33:26
diagrams or everywhere. Are and like every I am
33:29
conference right, people just love the Venn diagrams.
33:32
Where were I would say identity sea shanties 1.0.
33:40
So you know what this whole conversation gets me thinking
33:44
about, like trust is really not a black-and-white issue, right?
33:47
Because there are times where I had that low Assurance of
33:53
requirement access to a website to, you know, Get access to my
33:58
son's baseball teams website. I will tell you though, when it
34:03
says, do you want to save this credit card, like heck no?
34:07
Heck, no. Do I want to see my credit card
34:08
on this website? But, you know, just kind of that
34:11
level of trust is not always the same.
34:14
Whether you're talking about, you know, high risk assets
34:17
versus low risk assets that you're trying to access and
34:21
Lorraine all'd from the ID Pro slack Channel throughout a
34:24
question. She wanted to get your thoughts
34:27
on the nist. 863 Dash C draft, For with draft revision, for
34:35
which, you know, is the level of assurance guideline from nist.
34:39
So what are your thoughts? Yeah, and that's great.
34:43
Great question. We've definitely been digging
34:46
into it. We're not done digging into it,
34:48
you know. It's it's getting better and
34:50
better for sure. You know I reference getting rid
34:53
of the the appendix from from rev one.
34:57
I think going to rev to the whole thing about.
34:59
Well make sure that it's you know super it strengthened and
35:02
learn that, that wasn't, you know, in the top five list of
35:06
things we want to do the initial thoughts that I have around ways
35:11
to comment, mostly have to do with finding ways to give
35:17
guidance around that, that notion of fine-grained,
35:21
contextual adaptive intelligent Dynamic Assurance levels and for
35:27
a long time, I've called this Ela a pie, like, he know, No.
35:31
How do you get into the cracks of the keyboard when it comes to
35:34
level some assurance and and figure out how to make it more
35:38
Dynamic? And that makes me first of all
35:41
think AI as a technology and technique you to apply and maybe
35:45
we'll talk more about that. But I actually went over to talk
35:50
with folks who are familiar with one of our UK government
35:53
customers, whose kind of in the same boat.
35:55
As, you know, the customers, the direct customers have missed to
35:58
say, you know, we'll do you have any recommendations and what I
36:01
Was this particular UK government customer has what
36:05
they call a transactional risking model and I quite like
36:09
it and it goes into more depth on transactions and sessions and
36:15
on behavior and on operational rules and, you know, maybe that,
36:20
maybe I'll come by rev 7. I don't know.
36:22
It's like something that, you know, they keep on deepening.
36:26
But that's the that whole kind of dynamic - is remains a Hot
36:31
Topic. Epic.
36:31
It will continue be Hot Topic. So you mentioned AI, which is a
36:34
hot-button word for me. I'm a big fan of all the
36:37
different tools that have come out and the democratization of
36:41
being able to leverage technology like that.
36:45
And you mentioned by us and where are these tools being
36:49
developed trained on right? It's being trained on.
36:52
Let's take Jackie Beauty, right? We've been talk about this.
36:55
We should just call it a tie into Center at some point
36:56
because we keep Check EPT has been, you know, basically
37:02
learning from the internet up through, I think 2021 is what
37:05
its data says good for and based on what it's been learning,
37:11
there are still some questions around bias and where do you get
37:14
answers from? And are they accurate?
37:17
Which I think is probably the most important thing is, is the
37:20
data fact or not Iran. A little experiment on myself.
37:26
Typing, it ends, like, tell me about me.
37:28
First of all, it didn't know who I was like, all right, well,
37:29
Thanks, dude. So they had to give the core
37:32
processor, okay? Right.
37:33
Say oh, I work at our SMI host, identity centers, they do that
37:37
Jeff Steadman. Okay great cool.
37:39
And then it started spitting out some stuff that some of it was
37:41
not true. Apparently, I've been promoted
37:44
apparently and I am a partner with ourselves, so Daniel run
37:48
with it. Thank you very much, right?
37:50
Yeah, exactly. I started skating.
37:53
Yeah, exactly. And then me being part of other
37:57
industry. Groups identity ecosystem.
37:59
Never even heard of that thing. I've certainly support idea,
38:02
say, for example, but I'm not a member of it and it just leaves
38:06
me down this path of okay well I you know it's one of those
38:09
things where I get so excited as I call this is gonna be so cool
38:12
and we when we figure it out and when we can trust it and that
38:17
bias is still there that lack of transparency of where the data
38:22
is coming from. You know if it was something was
38:23
like oh well this is where I pulled it from.
38:26
For example, why can go and correct that piece of
38:28
information So it's not citing it, which I think is a little
38:31
bit different than what being has, Microsoft Bing has
38:35
announced, and I'm in part of the beta.
38:36
So I actually get to play around with a, you know, the the chat
38:40
GPT integration within the Bing search which I would never use,
38:43
you know. Yeah.
38:45
So I know Sydney the code name and they have actually taken a
38:50
pretty unique approach where they actually site in the
38:53
answer, where they're pulling the information from.
38:56
So, it'll say, well here's the answer and then we'll give a
38:58
little, you know, footnote Of say, okay.
39:00
Well, this part came from this website and this other part came
39:02
from this other website, but you're still dealing with.
39:05
Okay. Well, why did it pick that
39:07
website versus another website and that bias that exists.
39:11
And I'm just curious. What, where do you see this
39:13
going from like a bias and a trust perspective on that.
39:17
A I said the word because it seems like that's a little bit
39:19
counter to what we want and security which is this binary
39:22
decision, right? Either you're good or your bag
39:24
and there isn't a yaxha between. I mean I think it's possible.
39:28
First of all to So those are the last little thing.
39:30
You said, it's possible for us to start answering those
39:33
questions of you're in or you're out in a more fine-grained way.
39:37
And to change our decision more more often.
39:40
And I think you know, there are different kinds of AI and large
39:44
language models are a kind of AI that you know it's practically
39:47
Mad Libs, right? It's filling in blanks and it's
39:50
using the data that started out, you know, written by humans, who
39:54
may have been incorrect, or lying, or whatever.
39:56
And so, it's not meant for the purpose of Of being true and
40:01
we'd have to ask it to do a lot of things to assure ourselves,
40:04
that something is true and there's a lot of usefulness.
40:08
Even even with that, I mean there's plenty of, you know, I
40:11
don't know, Junior reporters writing things, getting things
40:15
wrong in needing an editor, right?
40:16
It's not, it's not so surprising the, the key, I think you put
40:23
your finger right on it is there's a branch of a, I
40:27
literally called explainable AI. Xai for short and I think it's
40:32
really important if at all possible.
40:35
For adopters of AI technology to strive for explain ability,
40:39
there's another term interpretability which means
40:42
more like, you know, it's properly understood if you think
40:45
about like meaningful consent guidelines and sort of like
40:47
that, you know, did somebody understand what you're telling
40:49
it where you got the information.
40:52
So I think my colleague, Steve enema happened to just publish
40:58
really nice post. On for drug community.
41:01
So community that for direct.com, if you want to check
41:03
it out called creating trustworthy AI as it happens and
41:07
he's partly relaying some of the good work that nist has done
41:10
here. So they have a special
41:12
publication 1270 towards a standard for identifying and
41:15
managing bias in artificial intelligence and other work.
41:18
So it that special publication lays out a bunch of examples of,
41:25
you know, concerning results in Ai and And where we come down on
41:31
the advice and that post is, you know, yes, harm can be real
41:36
familiarize yourself with explainable.
41:38
AI and interpretable, AI course, you have to make ethical
41:43
management of consent around sharing data using data and the
41:47
storage of data management, you know, data, governance a guiding
41:51
principle and these are the sorts of things that will
41:55
increase confidence in. I would say really every kind of
42:00
AI. And so the kind of AI that, you
42:02
know, we specialize in, I would call it helps intelligent
42:05
decisioning and decisioning in identity is largely about
42:10
authorization, although not always, it could be finer
42:13
grained, like, you know, allow them to cut a PO of this size
42:19
but not that size or, you know, step up and test them harder if
42:23
they try and do this other thing or in circumstances that look
42:26
suspicious, you know, you That is a kind of funny, it's like
42:29
turning my CEO friend. Raj talks about, you know, what
42:34
seems like a dumb tool without that help can become a very
42:38
smart tool. I mean, and even that means
42:41
explain ability. And and that's a, that's a
42:43
stance. That's a principle that we
42:44
uphold in what we do when you're doing any kind of decisioning
42:48
and you always want to be able to sort of bottom out with the
42:50
some sort of human oversight. So I recommend people take a
42:53
look at that post just for like a just kind of an overview of
42:56
current state of the art and get a Advice.
42:59
Yeah, if you can send me the link, I'll be sure to add it to
43:01
our show notes for people to check out.
43:03
Absolutely, I had a question and maybe it sounds stupid, but
43:07
maybe it's not. Would we even recognize bias?
43:11
How would we even recognize it? I think it's quite difficult,
43:16
there's some the post relays, some some discussion there as
43:20
well. They're from a different, I
43:21
think from a different nests document if I'm not mistaken
43:24
about the ways that people fool themselves, I mean, you know, A
43:28
human beings are valued judgment machines.
43:34
So everything we do is intended to make patterns, see, patterns
43:39
and quite often get it wrong or just, you know, the world is
43:43
full of nuance for human beings and their brains.
43:45
So, there's some good advice about, you know, sort of how not
43:49
to fool yourself. And there's a, there's a concept
43:54
in this is actually in the rationalist community which I
43:58
Sometimes frequent online. The concept is steel Manning,
44:03
you know, like a straw man argument is kind of like a straw
44:05
argument is. Well, it's too easy of the
44:07
knockdown. That's, that's no tested.
44:09
All Steel Manning is when you imagine the all the best
44:14
Arguments for the thing that you hate or vice versa, you know,
44:18
all the all the totally awful, you know, Chiller arguments
44:22
against the thing you love and like do the work, do the work to
44:27
steal. Or implementation against that
44:30
and then enemy transparent about what you found.
44:32
I could sit here and gripe about AI all day because I and I do it
44:37
all the time, but, you know, it feels like every call center you
44:41
dial into these days is like answered by somebody who are
44:45
answered by a an AI voice. I'm a person.
44:49
I can understand complex. Question some join operator I
44:53
want to talk to her. No no 000 and it's like Well I
44:58
can really help you just give me your question.
45:00
Okay. Well I have questions about my
45:02
bill. I'm sorry I didn't understand
45:04
that. It's like, okay, operator needs
45:06
us. I'm gonna pull my hair out
45:09
anyway. Yeah, it's I mean that, that is
45:12
exactly that sort of like the vocal uncanny valley of, you
45:17
know, you just if you have that level of Suspicion going in, it
45:21
doesn't help for them to keep going down that path.
45:24
And they should just make it easy.
45:26
Yeah, it's a human. Why?
45:28
I also think that it just it carries over to the next time
45:31
you hear one of those systems as the phone and said, like poor
45:35
implementation of Technology just bills, that lack of trust
45:40
that you have for the technology, I guess that they
45:42
can expend. As I think you're saying it can
45:44
extend to sort of, you know, all service providers to all
45:47
retailers to all everybody maybe to all employers.
45:51
I mean, it's a heavy burden, and it's why being modest in our
45:54
aims is a good idea. When we deploy systems, Don't
45:58
feel like on the chat GPT from heard.
46:00
A lot of people talk about like a, this could take away our
46:03
jobs, but I actually think that where a I could flip the script
46:08
is actually just make us more productive because I find myself
46:11
doing like routine tasks over and over again throughout my
46:14
day. If I had some kind of true
46:17
virtual assistant that could be automated that it could just
46:21
talk to me and I could tell it everything I need done, it could
46:25
go and do it. I'd get huge value out of that.
46:28
I would be much more productive. I spend my time researching and
46:31
getting smarter. Yeah and I did.
46:34
So a few months ago I was starting to generate all my
46:38
weird illustrations in my talks and my presentations using Dolly
46:42
to and they do get more and more.
46:45
I don't know hallucinogenic and and I was talking to somebody at
46:50
work is like well this is just an affront that's not art.
46:53
And I say well the same thing was said about photography in
46:55
the beginning just so you know. Um, I actually find a lot of
47:00
creativity and like, people have already written novels and
47:02
illustrator, graphic novels with some of these things.
47:05
And like, obviously the engine didn't come up with itself, we
47:12
what comes after no code. This.
47:16
This is what comes after, no code.
47:17
And that's a new kind of democratization that it's
47:20
uncomfortable for, you know, the high Priests of whatever do that
47:26
thing. It's very Fertile for folks who
47:30
want to be able to do it because there's a lot of folks who need
47:32
the results. You know, it's beneficial.
47:35
Yeah, the example I always hear is the, you know, the electric
47:38
light, put it out, put people out of business who went around
47:42
late street lights, you know? But at the end Humanity, I think
47:46
that the potential of automation with AI, you know?
47:50
If all you do is repeatable mundane tasks.
47:54
Yes, I think you could. It's going to force you to Get
47:58
out of that business and do something that actually should
48:01
be more empowering. This is, I mean, this is kind of
48:04
creative destruction, right? Yes, just automation, right?
48:07
It's not. Yeah, it's just automation.
48:09
Well, as we're talking about, right?
48:11
I mean, this is It's a species of automating.
48:13
Something automating, and scaling something, and those are
48:16
very powerful things and they can be used for ill as well as
48:18
good. But and so you know, speaking of
48:22
trusting, all these things, how do we make these systems that
48:25
are starting to become so powerful?
48:28
How do we get a level of letting them do more, rather than
48:31
locking them down? And, and it's through, explain
48:35
ability, interpretability openness transparency.
48:40
That's so before we completely go off the rails.
48:44
I did want to hit this third area which was trusted vendors.
48:47
Again, perfect person to have on here because as somebody who's
48:51
the CTO for a company that creates cyber security software,
48:58
you know, what is it? That is needed to build trust in
49:01
your company and what can destroy that trust?
49:05
Huh. This is where I'm tempted to
49:08
reach for that pyramid. I was describing before again
49:11
because protection transparency and giving customers control I
49:17
think are all really good elements of achieving that
49:21
trust, you know. Lots of lots of things can go
49:24
wrong. I think everybody knows when
49:26
you're using a software vendor as a spender, whatever it is,
49:30
it's understood that nothing is perfect.
49:32
However, to maintain the Chip, you need to have unassailable
49:38
transparency, you mentioned the consumer identity breach report
49:42
that I'd come on and talked about at one point.
49:45
One of the things that we were watching last year.
49:47
We published, we're working on the new one.
49:49
The fifth. This will be our fifth annual
49:51
anniversary one. So you know, stay tuned, but
49:53
we're watching breach notification, delays, lengthen,
49:59
even as we see mandates, starting to encroach, to make
50:02
you do it and like And the best way to be trustworthy is to have
50:09
what I think an open Baby World, they call this compete, not
50:11
comply mindset, how do you become a leader in in that
50:15
openness how do you become a leader in doing better and I
50:20
just think that's best way for some reason.
50:22
I feel like this is an area that companies just plain struggle
50:26
with is getting the breaches. The breach notifications out the
50:30
transparency, whatever it may be.
50:33
I just In the Playbook happen, over and over and over again
50:36
where, you know, here's one that was hand, okay, everybody, you
50:39
know, everybody is going to get breached at some point, right?
50:42
How you handle it? I think is more important at
50:44
this point because it back in my day, when you got breached it
50:47
was game over, your company was done.
50:49
Now, it seems like everybody's getting breach for some reason
50:52
and it's not the, you know, the death knell that used to be but
50:56
every it's just seems like every company sucks at handling
51:01
breeches with period. Like they just, yeah, they're
51:03
just not good at it. Did you just say back in my day?
51:06
Back in my day? Yes, I did.
51:08
And you pulled that out of my lawn.
51:14
Parse uphill in the snow both ways.
51:18
Yeah, it's true. That more companies are getting
51:21
experience with it and it's being sort of democratizing, the
51:23
sense of it's not just the mega corporations, you know, having
51:26
you know, their billions of Records breached its smaller
51:30
players, smaller Enterprises. And we showed this actually in
51:32
our, in our report last year. It's it is becoming a little bit
51:38
like, you know, password knowledge, a fact of life.
51:42
And I think, what would really be killer is lack of good faith,
51:48
transparency. And I almost feel like everybody
51:52
should just put out a dirty laundry report monthly just to
51:54
get into the Habit, it's making the same mistake twice and it's
52:00
making the wrong choice, whatever that might be in
52:03
configuration or whatever, be the easiest choice for their
52:06
customers. So there's some commitments that
52:09
any company can make there and survived some bad storms.
52:12
I feel like one of the areas that creates a vulnerability in
52:16
this respect is Cloud delivered services.
52:21
So identity is a service, for example.
52:25
And I got, I think that's keeps, I am practitioners up at night
52:28
knowing that they put trust in a company and that they may be
52:33
running some software for example, like, like the
52:37
solarwinds incident, right? I think that I'm not trying to
52:40
pick on solar winds, but it's probably one of the biggest
52:44
breaches of our career as a supply chain in incident that
52:49
affected. So many organizations while now
52:52
I'm putting so much trust in identity as a service.
52:57
They may be running software that gets hacked.
52:59
They may get hacked themselves. You know, what's the?
53:03
I am practitioner to do, you know, it's funny.
53:05
I guess I'll mention the breach report again, just because what
53:10
we found last year was that supply chain attacks, were up
53:14
two hundred and ninety-seven percent.
53:17
That's a big deal. And this is where all right, I
53:23
guess it's time for drinking zero.
53:26
Trust architecture. Came up with, I mean, it is kind
53:29
of right here for us on a Friday night for the listeners.
53:33
Maybe this realism. There's but it came up with this
53:35
concept of the s bomb the software bill of materials.
53:39
And I really think that's a good idea because it sort of speaks
53:45
this trend towards proper inventorying of everything.
53:48
You know, GDP are Requires, proper inventorying, a personal
53:51
data, and that zero thing, really is starting to require
53:57
proper inventorying of, like all the software that you're using
54:00
in whatever guys. So I kind of feel like that is a
54:04
way to start having that conversation.
54:06
Obviously General Supply Chain management, vendor management is
54:12
that's what it sort of comes down to and and it can learn the
54:16
lessons actually of some of the if you think about the Duration
54:20
Assurance level work in this that allows for assessment of an
54:26
IDC, to be of any sort of third party that you're working with
54:30
and accreditation of assessors and all the rest of it.
54:33
So, there's so much going on this base.
54:34
I feel like we could talk for probably like ours.
54:37
And I hear a little like dangling.
54:39
Maybe that's Sabrina's collars. Sorry.
54:43
No, it's fine. I was really hoping this would
54:45
be the time that we would get, you know, the pet on on cam and
54:50
And I on the identities that are podcast but it is a document
54:53
fed. I think speaking they got in
54:56
fed, it is a Friday night, why don't we start to wrap things up
54:59
so that you can get on with your weekend?
55:01
I can get on with writing my statements of work which is
55:03
super exciting. But before we go we do like to
55:06
end on a lighter note. We're all going to be in Dallas
55:10
area Grapevine, Texas for Gartner, in a few weeks and that
55:13
is your neck of the woods. So one looking forward to
55:15
actually being able to give you a fist bump in real life but for
55:18
the people who are, you know, Congregating down there who
55:21
aren't from that area. What's a little-known place?
55:24
That people should try to go out of their way to grab a bite to
55:27
eat or drink or something like that.
55:29
That we should check out while we're there.
55:30
Yeah. Oh there's a dog you're hearing.
55:32
Yeah, sorry. So yeah I'm so excited.
55:37
People are going to be in my neck of the woods and so I live
55:42
really close to Grapevine and of course it's going to be at the
55:44
Gaylord Texan so it's kind of I actually found out that the
55:46
Gaylord Texan is the largest game.
55:50
And for those who've been to Gaylord Rockies for identifiers.
55:55
That's the smallest Taylor, just for the record.
55:59
And so what I would love to recommend to everybody is if you
56:03
want some good barbecue and I'm going to say good barbecue
56:07
experience, then I do recommend Hard Eight, there's one really
56:12
not far. They keep the The Smokers going,
56:15
like 24/7 and you walk up and you order by the pound.
56:19
And it's just a super cool experience.
56:21
And I also love, there's a town called Carrollton, and it's got
56:28
some amazing Korean food. It's also not far.
56:32
And so, if you're going to reach out and experience the the
56:37
general area, that's what I say you gotta do.
56:40
Okay, well, you had me at 24-hour smoker.
56:43
This is set it up. Hard hard eight, as in the
56:46
number Ocho barbecue, so that's definitely going to be.
56:50
The list for sure. What was the other?
56:52
Uh-oh. Uh-oh.
56:55
Yeah, exactly. I'm glad you got the reference.
56:58
Okay, we're going to go ahead and get things wrapped up.
57:01
You know, Eve, you've been generous as always with your
57:04
time with us. Super appreciate it.
57:05
You coming on, especially on a Friday night and taking time out
57:08
for us, and sharing your wisdom with us and the listeners are
57:11
out there. I'll have links in our show
57:13
notes to reach out to. You can connect with you on
57:16
LinkedIn there Sabrina. Oh, what a good little puffer.
57:19
Sorry guys. As you know, this is Audio Only,
57:21
but we got to see. We got finally got to see some
57:23
remix. Yeah, so we'll have show that
57:27
makes it our show notes. You can connect with Yvonne
57:30
LinkedIn will have linked to forgerock.
57:32
I did find this CTO Lounge on the for direct Community
57:35
website. They actually has a few
57:36
different articles on AI and stuff like that.
57:38
So yeah, do that and also explain a i.org so that if
57:43
you're interested in sort of that area, you can kind of see
57:45
what that's been working on and, of course, links for a gym and
57:47
myself to connect on LinkedIn. If you Are you know looking for
57:51
a very interesting conversation at Gartner.
57:54
We're going to be on stage, you know, talking with Enrique I'm
57:56
Becky send us your deepest darkest hardest questions for
58:00
Gardner was a still time. Send it over to us.
58:03
Sent to us via LinkedIn and we'll try to get try to identify
58:08
some themes and include that for part of the discussion will have
58:11
their. So we'll go ahead and leave it
58:12
there for this week. You can find us on the web
58:14
identity at the center.com. We're also on Twitter at IDC
58:18
podcast. And we'll go ahead and wrap it
58:20
up there. Thanks everyone for listening,
58:22
and we'll talk with you all in the next one.
58:25
You've been listening to Identity at the center.
58:29
We hope you've enjoyed the show, make sure to like rate and
58:33
review and we'll be back soon, but in the meantime, hit the
58:36
website at identity at the center.com and find us on
58:41
Twitter at idac podcast. See you next time on identity at
58:48
the center