Latest / Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute / 59: A Deeper Dive Into Objectification - with Stephen Thomas

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59: A Deeper Dive Into Objectification - with Stephen Thomas · Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute

• 0:00
  Hey everybody, so I got a question for you.
• 0:01
  Have you guys ever wondered how problematic is it or is it
• 0:06
  normal for me to notice other people when I'm out there
• 0:09
  walking down the road or driving down the road and I see people?
• 0:12
  How problematic is it for me to see them?
• 0:14
  That's what we're going to talk about today, so let's jump into
• 0:18
  it. Welcome to Beyond the Facade
• 0:22
  podcast. I'm your host, Luke Gordon, and
• 0:25
  I'm thrilled to have you join me in this space today.
• 0:27
  What we're going to be doing is diving deep into the trials and
• 0:29
  triumphs and truths of seeking authenticity.
• 0:33
  Becoming your true self isn't about a single action or a
• 0:35
  moment. It's a relentless pursuit, a
• 0:38
  commitment to self that reveals a rich connection and meaning
• 0:41
  that our life has to offer. So whether this is your first
• 0:44
  time tuning in or you're a regular listener, know this.
• 0:47
  What you're building here goes beyond a conversation.
• 0:50
  You're here to challenge, to change and to celebrate the
• 0:53
  incredible journey of becoming your authentic self.
• 0:56
  Because when you dare to show up fully, the rewards are
• 0:58
  immeasurable. So welcome to Beyond the Facade.
• 1:01
  Let's get started. All right, so everybody, I want
• 1:05
  to just welcome Stephen Thomas here with me today.
• 1:08
  He is somebody that have a much respect for his new coach with
• 1:11
  Choose Recovery Services. He's been coaching men for a
• 1:14
  while now and we brought him on because he has a passion for
• 1:18
  this. He has been.
• 1:20
  How long you been coaching, Steven?
• 1:22
  I've been coaching professionally for four years
• 1:24
  and then I used to lead recovery programs in church ministry
• 1:28
  settings before that for a few years also.
• 1:30
  So I think it's about 7:00 or 8 years now.
• 1:32
  OK, so he likes to work with men.
• 1:35
  We call them individuals seeking recovery, so the person that's
• 1:38
  betrayed their partner or act outside their values
• 1:41
  compulsively. So the listeners to this
• 1:43
  podcast, so he likes to work with them.
• 1:45
  And you mentioned to Stephen that you like to help men.
• 1:49
  I'll call it coming into empowerment or receiving some
• 1:53
  type of ownership. And hey, I want to do this work
• 1:57
  and I want something different than I have right now.
• 1:59
  And sometimes it can feel like I'm stuck and I have no power.
• 2:02
  Stephen, tell us anything that you want guys to know about you
• 2:04
  or the people listen to this podcast.
• 2:06
  Yeah, along with saying, hey, I've been doing this for a bit,
• 2:10
  even though I'm new with choose, I'd want everyone to know that I
• 2:14
  have been an individual seeking recovery.
• 2:16
  And I'm even going to talk today about a concept of sexual
• 2:19
  health. And I like that phrase because
• 2:21
  if you think of physical health, like you steward your physical
• 2:24
  health for your life. So sexual health is also
• 2:27
  something we steward. It's something woven into our
• 2:29
  humanity. But I've dealt with myself with
• 2:32
  problematic, compulsive, I would say unhealthy sexuality in my
• 2:36
  life. So I come from that background
• 2:38
  and understand that deeply. And like Luke said, the
• 2:42
  empowerment piece, I do love working with men and I also will
• 2:46
  venture into working with couples.
• 2:47
  But in the space of helping guys take ownership and being able to
• 2:52
  see the impact of their behaviors on their partner and
• 2:56
  rather than feel like they're stuck in victimhood.
• 2:58
  And again, I say that as raising my hand.
• 3:00
  Oh yeah, I know being the victim and I know the dead end of that.
• 3:04
  So I really love helping guys in that space, taking ownership.
• 3:08
  And then from from a place of ownership, you can actually get
• 3:11
  into empathy and do some relational repairs.
• 3:14
  So I love that stage. Yeah, yeah.
• 3:16
  End up in. Really excited to have you a
• 3:18
  part of the team, Stephen. I know you do good work with the
• 3:21
  people you spend time with. So I'm just excited that people
• 3:23
  are going to get a chance to know you through this content
• 3:25
  that we're going to cover today. OK?
• 3:27
  So the content is going to be around objectification,
• 3:30
  objectification and you could call it versus humanizing
• 3:33
  somebody. Stephen, where would you like us
• 3:35
  to start? I think defining objectification
• 3:38
  is really important as a starting point personally, and I
• 3:42
  would say that the way I define objectification is that when we
• 3:45
  assign value to an individual based on their physical
• 3:48
  appearance. OK.
• 3:49
  All right. You want to talk more about
• 3:50
  that? Because I like your definition.
• 3:52
  Yeah, what's interesting is that's different than noticing
• 3:55
  that someone is attractive. I think everybody on the planet
• 3:58
  notices that people are attractive.
• 4:00
  But when we begin fixating, I'm thinking about how attractive a
• 4:05
  person is to us or not when there's a habit or maybe you
• 4:07
  just notice how attract maybe you constantly think like that,
• 4:10
  that those are indicators that there's an objectification issue
• 4:14
  and yet you're placing value they're receiving more or less
• 4:17
  attention based on physical appearance.
• 4:20
  And that's like you've already talked about the roots and stuff
• 4:23
  that's typically indicative one of some root issues going on.
• 4:27
  But also I like to talk about doing a recovery in a partner
• 4:31
  sensitive way. So if, let me put it this way,
• 4:34
  my goal as a husband is to deliver my sexual attention to
• 4:38
  my wife only and everybody else is relating to them properly.
• 4:43
  And that's again where objectification comes in.
• 4:45
  So other women would be mothers, sisters, daughters, other men
• 4:49
  would be fathers, brothers, sons, but only one person gets
• 4:52
  to me in my life. And typically you find that
• 4:54
  partners, female partners especially want all of that
• 4:57
  attention. They don't love it shared and
• 4:59
  scattered. So again, this becomes an issue
• 5:01
  even just from relational repair standpoint, right?
• 5:04
  This is good. Can I add your definition?
• 5:06
  Is that OK? I just want to build on with
• 5:08
  you. Yeah.
• 5:09
  Well, the way you phrased it, so I want to add to it like it's
• 5:13
  the objectification it involves like reducing a person to a
• 5:17
  specific use the benefit, right. I'm going to have the benefit,
• 5:22
  so they're going to pay the price.
• 5:24
  And I just. Talked for a second about the
• 5:26
  price that's paid with objectification because we all I
• 5:29
  got to tell you in my journey, I didn't think I really hurt
• 5:32
  anybody. I know that some of it did, but
• 5:34
  if it was a stranger or something like that, it didn't
• 5:37
  really. And I think one of these we can
• 5:39
  best do to learn about objectification is be able to
• 5:43
  put ourselves in the shoes of that other person.
• 5:46
  And sometimes that can be hard as men because we're like men.
• 5:48
  I'd actually OK the bear with me on this one.
• 5:51
  This isn't like, you know that. Yeah, I know, right.
• 5:54
  I'm curious if this is everything I'm wrong with.
• 5:56
  I'd like to be objectified. I would love it if somebody took
• 5:59
  me in for my looks. Right.
• 6:01
  Man, if I got cat called or something like that, that would
• 6:03
  be amazing. Yeah, I think, I think that's
• 6:05
  just how much I'm missing a part of the picture.
• 6:08
  So I want an example that can help illustrate what
• 6:12
  objectification feels like. Knowing that if I talk about
• 6:16
  sexual objectification, objectification, even with what
• 6:19
  everything that I've learned, I'm still going to miss some
• 6:21
  pieces because we kind of need somebody that's the opposite sex
• 6:24
  to be here to really give us like a good look at sexual
• 6:28
  objectification. But anyway, I was going to give
• 6:30
  an example, but do you want to say something on this Stephen
• 6:32
  before I do? I'll just say you're already
• 6:34
  hitting on the root issues. For me, it's helpful to think
• 6:39
  about what I'm saying yes to and the goodness and what I'm saying
• 6:42
  yes to rather than trying to avoid a behavior.
• 6:45
  So what I found is my desire, like you said, oh, for people to
• 6:52
  actually objectify me. It's sterling one.
• 6:54
  I do objectify myself. I've struggled with insecurities
• 6:57
  about my physical appearance. So the idea that with within
• 7:03
  objectification is we're gaining identity or gaining status.
• 7:07
  I actually call this, you hear of inner childbirth, I call this
• 7:09
  the inner high schooler where it's like I want to associate
• 7:11
  with the cool people. If you're kind of defining who's
• 7:14
  cool by who looks good, it actually shows you have an
• 7:17
  insecurity present. So this part of us that even
• 7:20
  wants that attention, I think that wants that like to be
• 7:24
  objectified is saying, oh, what about coming to this place of
• 7:28
  I'm actually good as I am, as I embrace my own physical health
• 7:30
  journey. It's OK if you're like saying,
• 7:32
  hey, I can have work to do that. But we can we're putting in
• 7:34
  work. We're stewarding ourselves.
• 7:35
  And yeah, we're not gaining that status, that identity.
• 7:38
  I'm not going to take from you and others to to prop myself up.
• 7:44
  Actually, you know, there's such a contentment when we get into a
• 7:47
  place. I'm at peace with who I am and
• 7:49
  I'm at peace with what I have to steward in my life.
• 7:52
  I don't know if I veered you too awesome what you were going to
• 7:55
  say, but it it it's spot on. I was just.
• 7:57
  Going to give one that we could maybe relate to.
• 7:59
  And I get that it's not sexual objectification, OK, here for a
• 8:02
  second, but what does it feel like?
• 8:04
  What does it feel like? As close as we can relate, OK,
• 8:08
  just think for a second about some job you've had in the past,
• 8:11
  OK? A job that you've had where your
• 8:14
  boss did not value you. You were a means to an end for
• 8:17
  that person. You were, you know, like, I
• 8:20
  don't care what your feelings are.
• 8:21
  I pay you, you get a paycheck. So do what I say, right?
• 8:25
  You don't matter to me. Even if those aren't the words
• 8:27
  said, that's what you feel, that's what you notice, right?
• 8:31
  And certain people will be like, yeah, I got to be objectified to
• 8:33
  work because that is what I, I do is on a paycheck.
• 8:35
  But that person does not have the ability to be able to
• 8:38
  comprehend that you're a human and that you have your
• 8:41
  experience outside of that. So we know what that can feel
• 8:43
  like. And that could be a that could
• 8:45
  be somebody, a boss, that could be a maybe we played sports when
• 8:48
  you had a coach that objectified you, you were only then there
• 8:51
  for the W like that. They didn't care about what else
• 8:54
  came of that. They would run you ragged.
• 8:56
  So I know what that feels like and I know what it's like to be
• 8:59
  around somebody that takes and to humanize somebody's a lot of
• 9:02
  work. That's not I don't know.
• 9:04
  It's doesn't feel as easy if them have been used to
• 9:07
  objectifying and there's this this entitlement that comes with
• 9:11
  objectification. So anyway, that was just a shot.
• 9:13
  One example of that to Stephen in this.
• 9:16
  But anyway, thoughts on that? No.
• 9:18
  That you're spot on and you know all this is very dicey again,
• 9:24
  because right to notice attractive people doesn't mean
• 9:26
  you're objectifying, right? And actually to feel good if
• 9:29
  somebody compliments your physical appearance isn't a bad
• 9:32
  thing. But you're right, this idea of
• 9:35
  assigning value to a person based on appearance and then
• 9:40
  what you run up, it's sort of you could assign a value to a
• 9:42
  person based on their performance at work.
• 9:44
  And then you can overwork them to the means of, hey, again,
• 9:47
  like the boss employee thing, that boss wants approval from
• 9:50
  his boss, so he's going to use that employee that's showing up
• 9:52
  and doing the job and ruin their life to prop himself up.
• 9:56
  Yeah. Sucks.
• 9:57
  The one that I was also thinking of is who does objectification
• 10:01
  actually hurt? Does it hurt a stranger?
• 10:04
  Yeah. I'm walking in if I'm walking,
• 10:07
  if I'm in a grocery store and I see an attractive person, if I
• 10:10
  objectify them, what if they're not even aware of it?
• 10:13
  Does it even hurt them? And I wanted to share with you a
• 10:15
  story that I have permission to share from women that are around
• 10:19
  objectification. And their experience is because
• 10:24
  what does the world teaches? The world teaches us that women
• 10:27
  dress for attention. They dress to be noticed.
• 10:30
  They dress to be light. And I'm not saying I'm not going
• 10:33
  to be so black and white to say that never happens or that's not
• 10:36
  even the case. Yeah, here is this.
• 10:38
  As a man, I'm taught that that happens for a reason.
• 10:42
  That's just a new form of objectifications.
• 10:44
  So what I've learned from the women I've been around that have
• 10:48
  been objectified is that they noticed that when they're in
• 10:52
  public and men are in their space, maybe not even talking to
• 10:56
  them, but looking at them and staring at them, they feel taken
• 11:00
  from something is taken from them.
• 11:03
  And it's I got to tell you it it was hard for me to see until I
• 11:08
  started to really do my work. And the reason it was because I
• 11:11
  had to be in not an awareness around that.
• 11:15
  Any thoughts on that, Steven? Yeah, we talked about when when
• 11:20
  people listen to me, they're going to hear me use the phrase
• 11:22
  sexual health a lot. And I love that phrase because
• 11:24
  it encompasses more than problematic, compulsive,
• 11:28
  unhealthy sexuality in our lives.
• 11:30
  But what about our ability to bond and connect and develop
• 11:34
  real intimacy in an exclusive relationship and then get to
• 11:38
  sexual intimacy outside of that? And then also, what about this
• 11:41
  idea of properly relating to everyone else instead of taking
• 11:45
  from everyone else, right? So the point is what I hear from
• 11:48
  you, Lucas, on your journey into sexual health, If you're
• 11:51
  thinking of sexual health, if this is shared between me and my
• 11:53
  wife, how do my behaviors impact her?
• 11:56
  And when you start listening to women, and I actually think you
• 11:58
  can't define sexual health without input from a woman
• 12:01
  because there's a relational aspect between a man and a woman
• 12:04
  and what we're talking about. So when you think of it like
• 12:07
  that, when you start listening to women, you hear, no, I feel
• 12:10
  taken from the tension is about comes if I dress well or not and
• 12:14
  I hate it. It's that same thing of I'm
• 12:16
  getting value at work based on performance or my special skill
• 12:20
  or things like that. And there's more to me.
• 12:21
  And again, we can maybe all connect that idea of like I
• 12:24
  actually want to be recognized for what I'm good at.
• 12:26
  Sure. But when that's only that, you
• 12:29
  know what I mean? It gets old.
• 12:30
  And also, yeah, you hear from women like, yeah, you can feel
• 12:33
  it, and it feels a little disgusting.
• 12:35
  The other problem with objectification, and she's not
• 12:38
  giving it to you. I've heard some stories of guys.
• 12:41
  You hear guys like, taking pictures out in public of pretty
• 12:44
  girls. And it feels like such a
• 12:45
  violation when women hear about that.
• 12:47
  And it is, I said earlier about the idea of properly relating to
• 12:51
  everybody else. And what I'd like to appeal is
• 12:53
  I'm referring, this is not my idea, but it's brilliant.
• 12:56
  I heard it from a guy named Daryl Barons.
• 12:57
  But I think that I don't even know if I pronounce the same
• 13:00
  right. But he says when you're taking,
• 13:03
  if you think of like predator, predators consume, they chase
• 13:07
  after, they consume and they take.
• 13:09
  But the other option is to protect.
• 13:11
  And I think that we as men love to protect.
• 13:13
  And we can appeal to the idea of I want to protect again.
• 13:15
  That's why I like to even define mothers, sisters, daughters,
• 13:19
  fathers, brothers, sons, and then one partner, one partner,
• 13:22
  one who gets set attention. I don't know if that answered
• 13:26
  it, but it brings up all that. And I think it's connected to
• 13:29
  what? Yeah.
• 13:30
  Have you have any of you ever heard of Matt Fradd MATFRADD?
• 13:36
  Oh my goodness. He does some.
• 13:38
  He tries to. He not tries to.
• 13:40
  He actually does some really amazing work on Is Pornography
• 13:44
  Good or bad? And is pornography intrinsically
• 13:47
  evil? Like, like what is it?
• 13:49
  Is it is pornography only bad because because of, you know,
• 13:54
  rape culture, just misogyny, just whatever it might be.
• 13:59
  And he talks about what makes pornography intrinsically evil
• 14:04
  or bad is that is actually the consumption of one, one person.
• 14:10
  So I consume another person I recognize it can be like, if you
• 14:13
  never heard the word before, it can sound really intense.
• 14:17
  I consume another person to meet my needs, right?
• 14:21
  That isn't a willing participant, that isn't choosing
• 14:24
  into that. 100%. That's what makes pornography,
• 14:28
  outside of all those other things that you name them at the
• 14:31
  bare root, harmful and destructive.
• 14:34
  We're going to take a quick break for a moment.
• 14:36
  I want to let you know of some things that we have coming up at
• 14:38
  Choose Recovery Services. Hey friends, it's Hallie
• 14:42
  Roderick here and I wanted to personally invite you to an
• 14:45
  incredible opportunity coming up this summer from July 8th to
• 14:48
  11th. Luke Gordon and I will be Co
• 14:50
  facilitating a help her heal intensive for men in Spanish
• 14:54
  Fork, UT. And if you're a man who's
• 14:56
  serious about rebuilding trust, creating emotional safety, and
• 14:59
  doing the deep work of repair after betrayal, this space is
• 15:03
  created specifically for you. This Four Day Intensive is not a
• 15:06
  lecture series. It's a deeply experiential
• 15:09
  process designed to help you feel the shift, not just
• 15:13
  understand it intellectually. Together, we'll explore powerful
• 15:16
  tools and practices to help you develop real empathy, shame,
• 15:20
  resiliency, and a clear understanding of betrayal trauma
• 15:24
  so you can begin to show up as a safe, trustworthy partner again.
• 15:28
  You'll also have the opportunity to connect with other men who
• 15:31
  are on the same path. Men also committed to growth
• 15:35
  their integrity, doing the hard work and the beautiful work of
• 15:38
  relationship repair. So whether you're just beginning
• 15:41
  this process or you're well on your way, this intensive can be
• 15:44
  a powerful next step in your journey towards healing.
• 15:47
  So if you're ready to move forward, we'd love to have you
• 15:50
  join us. So to learn more or to reserve
• 15:53
  your spot, check out the show notes where you'll find a link
• 15:56
  to reach out to our office. So let's do this work together.
• 15:59
  Hope to see you in Utah. Well.
• 16:02
  Let's get back to our episode. This is why I'm dealing with
• 16:05
  objectification is important because it's often wearing the
• 16:09
  same lens as a guy wears when he uses pornography and you want to
• 16:14
  take off that lens. And especially if you're wanting
• 16:17
  to repair your marriage, you've got to take off that lens.
• 16:20
  But I hope that you can even see the correlation that you're just
• 16:23
  a consumer. And again, when we're consuming,
• 16:25
  it's like I actually underneath it is we're trying to feel
• 16:28
  better about ourselves. In the end, you're there's the
• 16:30
  subconscious questions and if this woman's attractive, maybe
• 16:34
  it's like, man, I want to associate with these people
• 16:36
  because I feel so bad about myself.
• 16:38
  So I want to be around beautiful people.
• 16:39
  Or are they vulnerable? Is this person, would this
• 16:43
  person notice me? And we're hoping to get this
• 16:46
  attention, but it's all coming from consuming rather than
• 16:49
  actual love, which is, I believe, more about giving.
• 16:52
  Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry.
• 16:53
  I'm just like saying again, Steven, I'm not trying to.
• 16:57
  Yeah. No, you're good.
• 16:58
  So they have this piece where I remember early on a recovery
• 17:02
  with Alana, I remember my therapist, my CSAT therapist,
• 17:06
  him, me talking about I, I was free from pornography and it was
• 17:10
  pretty bad for me. It wasn't a once in a while
• 17:12
  thing. I wasn't acting out with other
• 17:14
  people and things were going well from that type of behavior.
• 17:18
  But my partner was still feeling like sex was really, really
• 17:22
  important for me. And I was frustrated because I
• 17:25
  didn't have an outlet besides sex to be able to feel that.
• 17:30
  And I remember one time talking to him about think, I remember
• 17:35
  talking about me thinking about us being intimate.
• 17:39
  I was having sex and he talked about me the level of
• 17:42
  inappropriateness of me engaging in those thoughts outside of
• 17:48
  outside of her. And I'm like, Oh my God, I was
• 17:51
  so mad because I'm like, are you going to take, are you going to
• 17:53
  take something else away from me right now?
• 17:56
  Something else? And I was like, what is the
• 17:58
  problem with this? We're married and he's like it.
• 18:00
  It's the it's the same thing in a way is you are and he said it
• 18:04
  more kind than this and it was more clinical than this.
• 18:07
  But he said you're still consuming your partner, you're
• 18:10
  still taking your hard day or you're not feeling like you're
• 18:13
  enough and wanting love and connection.
• 18:16
  But doing that when she's not present and you're thinking
• 18:19
  about her and, and you're really, you've gone into
• 18:22
  another, you're not in reality because they're not there.
• 18:25
  And that took me a long time. That was a bunch of sessions.
• 18:28
  So me coming out of that and realizing objectification
• 18:30
  doesn't just happen with strangers.
• 18:32
  I can also, whether it's with my partner there or not, they can
• 18:37
  still feel very much taken from very much not a part of the
• 18:41
  process. That's still objectification.
• 18:43
  Yes, yeah, women love our pursuit and it talked about
• 18:47
  sexual health and again, the continuum of unhealthy sexuality
• 18:52
  or problematic compulsive sexuality.
• 18:54
  You put in that bucket, right? But then can you bond?
• 18:56
  And women want to know that they're delighted in beyond what
• 19:00
  they can give you. They don't want to feel like
• 19:02
  somebody they're being consumed when your wife doesn't want to
• 19:04
  feel that from you. So they want to know, hey, like
• 19:07
  you like me just for me without sex, right?
• 19:10
  So it's actually very good, I think in recovery for women to
• 19:14
  realize, hey, I need to feel that for my husband, that
• 19:17
  without sex on the table, does he see the gift of me?
• 19:20
  Because it actually will push a couple to intimacy that will
• 19:23
  just make their sexual intimacy. Well, it'll make sex through
• 19:26
  sexual experiences, actual sexual intimacy, I believe.
• 19:30
  And yeah, like there's layers to it.
• 19:33
  It's almost, I'll just say I'm pausing because I could go into
• 19:37
  into a couple spots here, but I just want me to let that point
• 19:40
  stand, which is to just riff off of what you're saying is women
• 19:45
  want to know they're delighted and beyond sex because otherwise
• 19:49
  we're consuming our wives. Yeah.
• 19:52
  And that's the part that I wanted you to come and speak
• 19:54
  more of us. So what is the intimacy about?
• 19:56
  And that's just the more of they want to be involved and have I
• 20:00
  like the word consent, they won't be a part of that
• 20:02
  experience rather than being, yes, being somebody that's just
• 20:06
  filling our needs. That is 100%.
• 20:08
  Yeah. In your wife doesn't your wife
• 20:11
  wants to be your partner, not your mom or not your caretaker.
• 20:15
  You know what I mean? And there's a psych dynamic of
• 20:17
  oh, he's he'll be OK if I give him sex.
• 20:20
  That kind of ruins the partnership a bit to agree, but
• 20:23
  it creates A dynamic that doesn't breed inequality and
• 20:26
  intimacy. Your wife will look down on you
• 20:28
  and she'll hate the sexual experience.
• 20:30
  The truth. Over time especially, maybe
• 20:32
  there's a degree of them feeling good that they can give you
• 20:34
  that. And that can happen in healthy
• 20:36
  sexuality too, Sure, but when it's out of balance especially,
• 20:41
  we run into some big problems. Yeah.
• 20:44
  And I want to call something out here to do a little bit of a
• 20:46
  mini pause and more on what I'm saying, Steven, than what you're
• 20:49
  saying is if you're a partner when you're listening to this
• 20:52
  podcast, because a little less than half are the betrayed
• 20:55
  partner, the partner in healing. If this isn't resonating, it's
• 20:58
  OK. And I also just invite you to if
• 21:00
  it doesn't fit or doesn't feel like it, we want to know about
• 21:03
  it because we're talking about what we've heard and what we've
• 21:06
  learned about what partners experience.
• 21:09
  But if that's all you experience, we want to know
• 21:10
  about it. And I think going back to
• 21:13
  Stephen, a lot of things that you're saying is this is about
• 21:15
  intimacy. This is about two people seeing
• 21:18
  each other and and also cutting out those dynamics that's so
• 21:23
  hard disrupting those old patterns.
• 21:25
  You're in a dynamic that consists of you're just a man
• 21:29
  waiting around for her to be ready and she just doesn't want
• 21:32
  anything to do with it. And I recognize this isn't
• 21:34
  everybody, but not only is she feel like she's having to do
• 21:39
  something she doesn't want to do, you're just feeling like
• 21:41
  you're having to wait. That can be disrupted.
• 21:44
  That can look different if we pull everything out, unpack it,
• 21:48
  and then we put it back in a new way.
• 21:50
  So if you want to know how to do that, let's talk more about it.
• 21:53
  So love it. What else around the
• 21:57
  objectification stuff, Stephen was on your mind?
• 21:59
  Yeah. So I want to talk about it's
• 22:02
  related to what you just said, which is just a positive impact
• 22:05
  of when you actually confront this in yourself.
• 22:09
  One, like I said, if you look at the deeper roots of are, you're
• 22:12
  needing to get that external attention.
• 22:15
  It points to some insecurity that you can bring to the
• 22:18
  surface and deal with. So there's that piece.
• 22:21
  The other thing is, is you said intimacy, right?
• 22:23
  This is about connection and intimacy.
• 22:26
  It's really difficult if you're battling this.
• 22:29
  Like you talk about consent. I think it's good for guys to
• 22:33
  get to the place of, hey, I'm just being real about where I'm
• 22:35
  at and I'm giving you this information as my partner.
• 22:39
  And you get to decide, hey, do I want to do this with you?
• 22:41
  Because otherwise part of the problem of the trail is like,
• 22:44
  who have you been? I feel duped into this
• 22:46
  relationship. And we have to get to the place
• 22:48
  where we try to stop controlling that.
• 22:50
  Our people choose us and try to manage the narrative and say,
• 22:53
  this is where I'm at. This is what I'm doing to work
• 22:55
  on this. But in the gift of when you do
• 22:58
  that in, when your partner chooses in, then you actually
• 23:00
  get intimacy. Otherwise you're stuck thinking
• 23:02
  she doesn't love me. She doesn't even know me.
• 23:03
  So there's this disconnect when we hide it.
• 23:05
  And this is that piece I think that we want to hide because
• 23:08
  maybe it feels like later recovery to suffer.
• 23:11
  Maybe I don't know if it has to be later recovery stuff.
• 23:13
  But the point is it gets us out of that place of trying to
• 23:16
  perform for our spouse because we as men, we actually want
• 23:18
  intimacy. We want to be known to.
• 23:20
  So the gift actually is, I think there's deeper layers of
• 23:23
  connection and also even I think that sometimes what can
• 23:27
  intensify the arousal is the fear related that you're even
• 23:30
  noticing. And then that then you have this
• 23:32
  fear response and you've kept that.
• 23:34
  You bring that on top of maybe just excitement of seeing an
• 23:36
  attractive person. You're scared.
• 23:38
  And now it's it's just become a bigger thing.
• 23:40
  And you take away that fear, you'll realize, oh, I actually
• 23:42
  don't. This is not as hard as I thought
• 23:44
  it was. That's really powerful.
• 23:46
  Thank you for pulling that in. Yeah, yeah.
• 23:50
  So you get connection, you get to realize, oh, people being
• 23:54
  attractive isn't the end of the world.
• 23:56
  I'll say, like, you know, I said sexual health is something we
• 23:58
  steward. For me knowing I have
• 24:00
  insecurities and doing work, it's like, hey, without shame,
• 24:04
  with my partner, knowing where I'm at, that I just go on the
• 24:06
  journey of, you know what I'm not going to take from this
• 24:08
  person. I'm not going to gain identity
• 24:10
  from others. And when I know like, OK,
• 24:12
  they're attractive without shame, I'm going to practice a
• 24:15
  new neuro pathway, so to speak. And again, just realizing this
• 24:18
  is where I'm at with my sexual health.
• 24:20
  It's out in the open. You can grow.
• 24:22
  And again, when you do that without that fear present growth
• 24:25
  is more it's, it really is attainable.
• 24:28
  And again, you're doing intimacy.
• 24:29
  We're not doing the secret stuff.
• 24:31
  And like you said too, and we should confront the consumer.
• 24:33
  So again, we want to get rid of that and turn into protectors
• 24:37
  and turn into people who love. Well, I mean, so I see so much
• 24:41
  benefit in going after this issue.
• 24:43
  And I think that it's that scary issue because we're still scared
• 24:46
  of our spouses and that's why intimacy isn't even happening.
• 24:48
  But I'm just saying part of recovery I think has to include
• 24:51
  this is reality. We have to look at our
• 24:53
  paradigms, so to speak, that we operate in and being willing to
• 24:56
  confront them. You know, I so love that you're
• 25:00
  saying confronting them. And I think about, I'm going to
• 25:03
  think about the trifecta, let me call it that, of the three
• 25:06
  things that have existed to create, what do you call a rich
• 25:11
  soil for objectification? So we were talking about roots
• 25:15
  before. Let me give you 3 pieces of
• 25:17
  this. And then because this is when
• 25:18
  you're talking about confronting it, this is what you have to,
• 25:20
  this is what I believe that we have to confront.
• 25:22
  So three pieces, a bunch of sexualized media, OK, a bunch of
• 25:27
  it. That's what our world's creative
• 25:28
  like television, the movies, like everything, frequently
• 25:32
  portrays people, specifically women, as bodies to be consumed,
• 25:37
  right? Not as humans to be known.
• 25:39
  OK, that's the first one. The second one is the toxic
• 25:42
  masculinity piece, right? So there's some big cultural
• 25:46
  norms around there. To be a man, you do exert power
• 25:51
  and dominance, right? And that's not where intimacy
• 25:54
  comes from, right? This emotional suppression.
• 25:57
  So that's the second one we talked about confronting.
• 25:59
  The third one is this in my favorite one to talk about
• 26:02
  lately, because I've never really looked out of this lens,
• 26:05
  which is this capitalistic framing of what objectification
• 26:10
  is, because capitalistic framing really is people are they're not
• 26:13
  valued for anything other than productivity, performance,
• 26:16
  appearance. And it reduces them, right?
• 26:19
  It reduces them. So as us as men, like this is
• 26:23
  our messaging. So when you confront it, we have
• 26:25
  to find proof and data that poke pokes holes in these three
• 26:31
  things, and that's kind of outing it.
• 26:34
  Yeah, I like that. All three of those points are
• 26:36
  really powerful. And I would appeal to men who
• 26:38
  might feel this, you know, you know, making you uncomfortable
• 26:42
  if you're listening to this, which is there's an opportunity
• 26:45
  to be a protector to humanity and there's an opportunity to
• 26:49
  1st be protector at your home. And the truth is when you step
• 26:53
  into that role, you're creating environment that will actually
• 26:56
  allow you're supposed to heal. And there's beauty.
• 26:59
  It feels good to to feel like a protector.
• 27:01
  I think we all want to feel that.
• 27:02
  And the other thing that stood out to me from what you just
• 27:06
  said, Luke, is just because it's common doesn't mean it's
• 27:09
  healthy. So yes, it's common that culture
• 27:12
  is just littered with objectification in teaching us
• 27:15
  and training us to objectify. But look at the fruit of
• 27:17
  culture. Look at the fruit of of
• 27:20
  relational health in our culture.
• 27:22
  Look at the fruit of violence in our culture, right?
• 27:24
  If you can't see the humanity, doesn't that perpetuate more
• 27:27
  violence? And so this is important.
• 27:30
  This is an important place. I'll say this, this kind of goes
• 27:33
  back to one of my core reasons why I am in the space.
• 27:36
  Obviously I no recovery from a personal standpoint, but I just
• 27:40
  think we solve society's problems if men can go home and
• 27:44
  be good husbands and fathers. Yeah.
• 27:47
  Can I give you Stephen? Can you tell me what you think
• 27:49
  about this? Sure.
• 27:50
  You keep reusing the word protector, and I keep thinking
• 27:54
  of going back to old, old language and old ways of
• 27:58
  thinking in this protector definition, OK, If I was
• 28:03
  listening earlier on, it would mean I need to be stronger and
• 28:06
  tougher and more masculine and all those things.
• 28:09
  And I just want to invite the protector technically is coming
• 28:14
  from a place of strength to empower other people.
• 28:18
  Because if I'm a protector, what I do with my daughter, right?
• 28:21
  If I'm going to stop objectification, what I'm going
• 28:24
  to do is I'm going to go, hey, look, so can we talk about what,
• 28:28
  what this all looks like, which is, Hey, you're not your body
• 28:31
  like you, you have more worth. And what is that?
• 28:33
  But also like consent, like offering up, like asking whether
• 28:38
  they want physical touch, like a hug or love.
• 28:41
  Protecting comes from a place of empowering or with my partner,
• 28:44
  like what do you need? Do you not need sex right now
• 28:47
  for a period of time? Empower somebody.
• 28:49
  That's how I protect them. I love that.
• 28:51
  I think you're hitting on a core thing here, which is, yeah, you
• 28:54
  don't get like bigger and protect.
• 28:57
  I'm appealing to the part of us as men that we love feeling
• 28:59
  bigger, but it actually looks like humbling yourself to
• 29:03
  empower others. Because if you're, if I'm secure
• 29:06
  in who Stephen Thomas is and secure where I'm at in my life
• 29:09
  process, I got problems. I got areas I'm growing in.
• 29:12
  But if I'm just secure, that's all OK.
• 29:14
  Then I like to say if I'm truly secure in my masculine identity,
• 29:17
  I don't need to prove it to everyone.
• 29:19
  So true. I love that.
• 29:21
  I love that so. Yeah, it becomes about, yeah,
• 29:23
  empowering others. It comes about taking ownership
• 29:27
  of my shortcomings when I impact others poorly.
• 29:31
  It's that humble path, truthfully.
• 29:33
  And it's actually really freeing because the truth is deep down,
• 29:36
  we all know we're full of it. In the sense that we all know
• 29:39
  we, we have vulnerabilities is really, I don't want to say full
• 29:42
  of it, but we all know nobody's perfect.
• 29:44
  You know what I'm saying? We all know our shortcomings.
• 29:46
  We all know our weaknesses. We all know our insecurities.
• 29:49
  So good. I could probably go forever with
• 29:50
  you, Steven. Like I could just keep talking
• 29:52
  and talking. We tend to do like shorter
• 29:54
  podcasts and this is going to be a little bit longer and that's
• 29:56
  good. I'm glad that happened.
• 29:58
  So Steven there there's more still more to talk about an
• 30:01
  objectification, but I just want to thank you for coming.
• 30:03
  I'm excited to have you back again in the future and I'm
• 30:06
  excited for you all to get a chance to spend time with
• 30:09
  Steven, whether it's in one of our groups or whether it's in
• 30:13
  individual work. And there's I just invite you
• 30:16
  to, if you feel like there's something there, we all do
• 30:20
  consults. So you get a chance to just meet
• 30:21
  us and say, hey, what's it like, spend time with you and talk
• 30:24
  about stuff. So Steven, just want to say
• 30:26
  thank you. Do you have any closing messages
• 30:28
  for anybody that you want to say?
• 30:31
  I would just say that at least for me to acknowledge these like
• 30:36
  even objectification issues, like I just know I felt free
• 30:39
  from porn and I was happy about that.
• 30:41
  But then do an objectification. It brought up the fear, Am I
• 30:44
  going to be rejected by my wife, by others?
• 30:47
  Who am I going to be rejected by it?
• 30:48
  It can be scary. There's a great quote I heard.
• 30:50
  I don't know who originated this, but everything you want in
• 30:52
  life is on the other side of fear.
• 30:54
  So the fear of becoming known in, in looking at the paradigms
• 30:58
  you're in and looking at even taking ownership of, gosh, I've
• 31:00
  been a consumer that's predatory.
• 31:02
  I'll just say that kind of humility is that's the guy I
• 31:05
  respect. And there's freedom in bringing
• 31:09
  it to the surface and dealing with it and being known and
• 31:12
  working on it and then actually getting chosen into by those
• 31:14
  people that you thought would reject you.
• 31:16
  That's what we're all chasing. Yeah, thank you for saying that.
• 31:20
  All right. It's good to spend time with you
• 31:21
  all. Take care.
• 31:22
  And we're looking forward to talking next time.
• 31:24
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• 32:38
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• 32:47
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