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1-800-1865: But it's not about the civil war · 1-800-1800

• 0:01
  ring ring hello hi i'm looking for 1865 this is she how are you
• 0:09
  i'm doing okay it's
• 0:11
  been a long week but how are you happy sunday happy sunday um
• 0:16
  i'm good my name is
• 0:17
  mabel i'm madeline and this is 1-800-1800 the podcast brought
• 0:24
  to you by mandy lyon
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: press
• 0:30
  Hello,
• 0:31
  you've reached 1-800-1800 1-800-1800 I have a burning question
• 0:33
  1-800-1800 1-800-1800
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: 1-800-1800.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: I have a burning question.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: So each episode we call up one year of the long 19th century.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: And this year, I've got one for us that's right smack dab in the middle.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Thank God.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: No funny business.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: No messing around with the edges.
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  SPEAKER_01: So what year is it?
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  SPEAKER_01: It's 1865.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I already called it 1865.
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  SPEAKER_01: I know what year it is.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: You called me.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: So before we start...
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Did you learn anything this week?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: I was really afraid you were going to ask.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm cheating a little bit,
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: and it's something I learned a long time ago,
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: but that I'm interested in and do continue to think about.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is it like A is for aardvark?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: How long ago?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: B is for bitch.
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  um so i was at a party a long time ago and i was talking to
• 1:35
  this ai investor and
• 1:39
  with my friends and we were obviously taking the piss party
• 1:43
  with an ai investor it
• 1:45
  wasn't the first time and it wasn't the last time that i was at
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  a party with an ai
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  SPEAKER_02: investor
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  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe like, I don't know if he was an AI investor.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think he was sort of like an AI.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Enthusiast.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Enthusiast slash person in that field.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, blech.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: And he could tell I was like, blech.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: They must get it a lot.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: And then he muttered something to me and my friends.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Rude.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Rude.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: And we walked away.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, what did he just say?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: And the way I heard it was I heard him say Valerian Jihad.
• 2:15
  and okay and i thought which is a phrase that if you hear it
• 2:19
  your mind slowly rots
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  and you implode yeah i mean a few years later here we are no so
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  i thought valerian
• 2:26
  like the plant that makes you sleepy um but no i realized after
• 2:31
  some time and some
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: googling that what he was saying was butlerian jihad from dune
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: Did you know that the subtitle to the book Dune is The Butlerian Jihad?
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: What?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm actually surprised you don't know about this.
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  SPEAKER_01: Basically,
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  I watched the first 10 minutes of the new Dune movie in the ICU
• 2:49
  with my mom a
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  SPEAKER_01: couple weeks ago.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's about all of the exposure I have.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was so loud.
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  SPEAKER_02: Oh, God.
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  SPEAKER_02: I saw Dune 1 and I thought it was really loud.
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  um but basically no no dune the new dune one the dennisville
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  new one i've obviously
• 3:02
  seen the david lynch one because when i interviewed to work for
• 3:04
  tom sachs that was
• 3:05
  the only requirement that i had to do in preparation for the
• 3:08
  interview well was to
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  watch dune the david lynch dune film i've never fact i've never
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  seen the david
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  lynch one i've only seen the timothy chalamet one and i only
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  saw dune one i did not
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  SPEAKER_02: see dune two so my dune one is different than your dune one
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  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, Dune takes place in a post-apocalyptic universe.
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  SPEAKER_02: In a Pocahontas universe.
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  SPEAKER_02: And it is staged,
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  SPEAKER_02: I think,
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  10,000 years after there's a Butlerian jihad where all thinking
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  computers are
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  SPEAKER_02: eliminated and it's illegal for computers to be thinking.
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  SPEAKER_02: And it's all inspired by Samuel Butler, the Erewhon writer.
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  and you told me i wasn't allowed to have my computer for this
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  segment so i cannot
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  provide any further facts other than butlerian jihad if someone
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  mutters it to you
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  at a party watch out wait because he was accusing you of
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  wanting to get rid of all
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  computers yeah i think you're correct if that's true i think we
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  should do a
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  SPEAKER_02: butlerian jihad i know i think we need to do round two
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  SPEAKER_02: So what did you learn this week?
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  SPEAKER_01: Round two.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because round one, where the Dune universe was created already happened.
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  SPEAKER_01: We live in the Dune universe.
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  SPEAKER_01: 10,000 years ago.
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  SPEAKER_01: We didn't learn our lesson from the first Butlerian Jihad.
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  SPEAKER_01: Read the history books, folks.
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  SPEAKER_01: Read Erewhon.
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  SPEAKER_01: Frank Herbert.
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  SPEAKER_01: I really have been wanting an Erewhon hoodie.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: I know you said if you're ever looking to get me something,
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: you should get me this Erewhon hoodie.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it started because there's a Ballerina Farms Happier Grocer collab.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Cleo was telling me about.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was looking at Happier Grocer merch.
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  SPEAKER_01: Did I tell you that there's a rumor?
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  SPEAKER_01: I drifted to Erewhon merch.
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  SPEAKER_02: There's a rumor that there's an Erewhon opening in Marin.
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  SPEAKER_02: Jaw hits the floor.
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  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't surprise me, but at all.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
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  SPEAKER_01: My brother's house got shut down for like a month because of rats.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: Ew.
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  SPEAKER_02: So gross.
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  SPEAKER_02: I didn't even know they had rats in LA, to be honest.
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  SPEAKER_01: Are you kidding?
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  SPEAKER_02: I thought that was a New York thing.
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  SPEAKER_01: No.
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  SPEAKER_01: And a Paris thing.
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  SPEAKER_01: They have rats wherever people are.
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  SPEAKER_01: Rats are the vermin we deserve.
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  There's like all of this stuff about how like we've built a
• 5:22
  world that's for rats,
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  not for us.
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  i was talking to someone at a party recently and they were like
• 5:27
  why are we so
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  afraid of rats there's no more no more bubonic plague and i was
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  like that's not why
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  i'm afraid of rats not because i think i'm going to get the
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  black plague but
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  because they hit something in me that's deeply deeply scary
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  yeah this morning i
• 5:40
  watched a squirrel fall over like from a tree or sideways like
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  just tipped over
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  sideways i've done that i was like that squirrel is sick and
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  we're all gonna die
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  yeah i hope you were a harbinger of a new a new sort of
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  butlerian geod bubonic
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  plague i don't know what did you learn this week well my fact
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  is short okay did you
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  SPEAKER_01: know that owen jones designed george elliott's house no
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  that's all i have there are no pictures it's just that um yeah
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  george elliott's
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  house was designed by the architect and sort of collector of
• 6:29
  world world style owen
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  jones whose grammar of ornament came out at some point maybe in
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  the 1860s i
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  actually don't know it might have been 1840 yeah i feel like it
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  was out before 1851
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  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
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  SPEAKER_01: When you're right, you're right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, that's my fun fact.
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  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: Are you ready to get to 1865?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: If you speak into the mic.
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  SPEAKER_01: Are you ready?
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  So 1865,
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  when I said to my mom that we were doing this,
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  she said,
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  whoa,
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  big year.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there's a reason she said that.
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  SPEAKER_01: The Civil War ended.
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  SPEAKER_01: The Civil War ended.
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  SPEAKER_01: And...
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  shot guy shot guy abraham so now that we've addressed that i
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  will be moving on and
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  not talking about either of those things for the rest of the
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  episode because i just
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  feel like we've talked about abraham lincoln we've i mean like
• 7:29
  go back and listen
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  to the old episodes if you're curious about abraham lincoln if
• 7:32
  you want to know
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  SPEAKER_01: about the end of the civil war why would you ever ask me
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  i wouldn't i'd ask your mom yeah you asked my mom there just
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  must be some other
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  place to find out more about that go to the library or watch a
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  ken burns or
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  something watch a ken burns or something i but i have an art
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  sort of a grand
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  unifying theory of 1865 stop looking at my notes cheater i
• 7:56
  already read it but lay
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  SPEAKER_01: it on me
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  um my grand unifying theory of 1865 which is related to the
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  civil war and i think i
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  will like circle back to it at the end and sort of the debates
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  that are coming out
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  of the civil war and leading up to it whatever but only if
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  there's time only if we
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  SPEAKER_01: can possibly get to it and also um
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  it's a lot about the way that the civil war changed like
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  infrastructure in the
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  SPEAKER_01: United States and how that was affecting the world on a larger scale.
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  SPEAKER_01: The first new deal in a way.
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  SPEAKER_01: In a way.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's an interesting point.
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  SPEAKER_01: Let's circle back to that too.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I'm just like,
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  somebody surrendered on somewhereville like not for me to know
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  keep going okay so
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  i'm skipping births and deaths because it was boring when i
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  looked and the only one
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  SPEAKER_01: worth mentioning was
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: the death of President Abraham Lincoln,
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  SPEAKER_01: who was shot at the Ford's Theater by John Wilkes Booth while watching a
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  SPEAKER_01: performance.
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  SPEAKER_01: He died at 722 the next morning.
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  And then there was a sort of manhunt because I actually didn't
• 9:12
  know that his
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: assassination was part of like a larger,
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: I thought John Wilkes Booth was kind of a lone wolf.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was like a larger conspiracy plot.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: To do what?
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  to kill there were three of them so lewis powell and david
• 9:25
  harold were assigned to
• 9:26
  kill the secretary of state william h seward and um george at
• 9:32
  zarat who was tasked
• 9:34
  with killing andrew johnson who's the vice president who then
• 9:37
  became the president
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  and is remembered as one of the worst presidents in u.s history
• 9:41
  which is sort of
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: unfortunate given that
• 9:44
  they wanted to kill him well given the way he got into office
• 9:48
  anyway um and they
• 9:49
  were all hung they also all died in 1865 and then there was a
• 9:54
  woman who's the i
• 9:55
  think the first woman in the u.s ever to be publicly executed
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  who was the mother of
• 10:01
  one of the conspirators who ran a boarding house where they
• 10:04
  like did the plotting
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  SPEAKER_01: well she deserved to die she deserved to die yeah you know i'm for public
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: executions i know you are
• 10:13
  um okay so there's some other things that happened in 1865 that
• 10:18
  i believe are
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  helpful context the first is that on january 4th the new york
• 10:26
  stock exchange opened
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: its first permanent headquarters on broad street in new york city
• 10:32
  nice nice um on january 31st the 13th amendment passed
• 10:40
  prohibition of slavery and
• 10:41
  involuntary servitude um on february 8th and again on march 8th
• 10:47
  gregor mendel first
• 10:49
  presented his theory of plant inheritance you know mendels peas
• 10:53
  which is like the
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: beginning of genetic theory smart smart guy
• 10:59
  um april 9th confederate army surrendered to general robert oh
• 11:04
  no robert ely
• 11:05
  surrendered to this is how much i know april 9th confederate
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  states army general
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: robert ely surrenders to
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that big northern general, I assume.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Ulysses?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: S. Grant.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Probably.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Lincoln is assassinated on April 14th.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: On May 17th, the first international telegraph union is founded.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like a union of workers?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think that must be like the Western Union.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: But they'd had telegraphs for longer than that.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then from June to August, Francis Galton first describes eugenics.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting stuff happening in 1865.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: But where my story begins is on what might seem a less significant event,
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: which is that in 1865 in New York City,
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Land that I love.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: The first cold storage warehouse opens and they sell fish stored on ice.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's huge.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: That is huge.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: So at the time...
• 12:16
  refrigeration was a kind of coming coming of age technology
• 12:21
  it's like they had ice
• 12:22
  that but ice was made by being literally cut from frozen rivers
• 12:26
  so to use ice in
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: storage
• 12:33
  how am i saying this basically ice was stored in these cold
• 12:36
  warehouses that was
• 12:37
  like how you had ice all year like natural ice natural ice that
• 12:41
  was cut from lakes
• 12:42
  and rivers and they would literally ship like ice from the
• 12:44
  hudson river would be
• 12:45
  like shipped to india like it was like and they would do it in
• 12:49
  these big boats so
• 12:50
  they had this technology for moving ice around the 1860s
• 12:54
  warehousing technology is
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: like
• 12:57
  starting to really develop like warehousing as a concept is
• 13:00
  kind of a new thing in
• 13:02
  the mid 19th century which is crazy and you don't think about
• 13:04
  that yeah well i
• 13:06
  always think about this guy in a class i took once who wrote a
• 13:09
  whole paper about
• 13:10
  how they stored ceramics when they were shipping them from to
• 13:14
  and from asia and
• 13:14
  europe and he was like did they use boxes did they use crates
• 13:19
  crates were like a
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: massive technological revolution yeah um and so i
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Basically,
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: in 1865,
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: the connection was made of like,
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: we're storing this ice in these warehouses.
• 13:32
  We could also store other stuff that the ice keeps fresh in
• 13:36
  there with them.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that was Fish.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: And his name was Fish.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: And his name was Fish.
• 13:43
  so they sold they sold fish on ice and this was attacked at the
• 13:46
  time by progressive
• 13:47
  reformers who called the frozen fish quote congealed edibles
• 13:52
  from every quarter of
• 13:53
  the globe and would accuse the warehousers of not only storing
• 13:57
  like that it was
• 13:58
  unsafe and unclean to eat this like old fish that had just been
• 14:01
  sitting in ice but
• 14:03
  also that they were like in addition to ice storing like black
• 14:06
  bears and like they
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: were like accusing them of just selling any old thing as fish and
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think if I took a bite of a black bear piece of sushi,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: I would know it was black bear and not tuna.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe not.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I started off researching this episode being like,
• 14:24
  I'm going to write a kind of Maha expose about how there's
• 14:28
  always been this
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: reluctance to...
• 14:34
  new technologies around food and like the skepticism about like
• 14:38
  different types of
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: storage and you know,
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: whatever the,
• 14:42
  and the sort of anxiety about the relationship between
• 14:44
  technology and things we put
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: into our body.
• 14:47
  was where i started but it just got a lot bigger than that wow
• 14:52
  when i started
• 14:53
  investigating bigger than maha bigger than maha take me there
• 14:58
  so then i was so to
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: my point about the grand unifying theory of 1865
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: So if we think back to my 1886 episode,
• 15:08
  which I think ultimately I sort of made an argument that 1886
• 15:11
  was a year about like
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: alienation,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: like the kind of separation of labor and leisure.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: That was the one about Chicago?
• 15:18
  Yeah,
• 15:19
  about Chicago from like the removal of humanity from both labor
• 15:25
  and leisure.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think 1865 is about abstraction.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And about kind of the way that something like food,
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: which for so long had been such a sort of,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: you knew exactly where it was coming from.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: You went and purchased it.
• 15:42
  It was like a daily part of life was like sourcing food and
• 15:45
  knowing exactly like
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: where it came from.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Or you took it out of the ground yourself.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Or you took it out of the ground yourself to a kind of commodity.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 15:55
  that this like abstraction of the sort of like cold fish market
• 16:02
  represents a larger
• 16:03
  change that's happening in the way that particularly like flesh
• 16:08
  is flowing as a
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: commodity
• 16:15
  you ready i'm ready i'm on the edge of my seat as you should be
• 16:20
  i also wanted to
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: just bring in this quote from alice venner about ice cream which will we
• 16:25
  acknowledge the animal in the room the elephant in the room the
• 16:29
  black bear in the
• 16:29
  room no your dog is snoring she's snoring so loud i've been
• 16:33
  trying to ignore it for
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: such a small dog her lungs are so powerful
• 16:38
  No,
• 16:38
  I was just going to say that you're about to reference one of
• 16:41
  our new books.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: And as we mentioned, this podcast is brought to you by Mandy Lion Press.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: We publish novels written in the 19th century.
• 16:50
  And there are two new ones coming out in a reissue of one of
• 16:53
  our first books coming
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: out this October.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 16:56
  and one of them is called the hill of dreams by arthur macken
• 17:00
  yeah and one is lc
• 17:01
  venner by oliver wendell holmes and lc venner was published in
• 17:05
  1861 so it's like in
• 17:06
  the sort of area of the time i'm talking about and part of the
• 17:13
  reason that i
• 17:13
  started thinking about refrigeration is because there's this
• 17:16
  scene in lc venner
• 17:17
  where one of the townspeople has a dinner party and the kind of
• 17:21
  like- The sprowls.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: The sprowls, yes.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: And the big spectacle in the middle of the meal is this ice cream.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: And oysters.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: And oysters, which is disgusting.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And everyone's like, don't eat the oysters.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: But Oliver Wendell Holmes writes about the ice cream and I quote,
• 17:39
  there is something so audacious in the conception of ice cream
• 17:44
  that it is not
• 17:44
  strange that a population undabauched by the luxury of great
• 17:48
  cities looks upon it
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: with a kind of awe and speaks of it with a certain emotion.
• 17:54
  this defiance of the seasons forcing nature to do her work of
• 17:57
  congelation in the
• 17:59
  face of her sultriest noon might well inspire a timid mind with
• 18:04
  fear lest human art
• 18:05
  were revolting against the higher powers and raise the same
• 18:09
  scruples which resisted
• 18:10
  the use of ether and chloroform and certain contingencies i'm
• 18:14
  so glad we're
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: publishing this book
• 18:17
  craziest thing you've ever read this guy has an opinion about
• 18:20
  everything and i
• 18:22
  actually think he there was like a 19th century thing where it
• 18:24
  was like a book of
• 18:26
  quotes you know like people would publish a book of quotes and
• 18:28
  i think he published
• 18:29
  one where it was just like you want my opinion on aardvarks you
• 18:32
  want my opinion on
• 18:33
  ice cream like alphabetically running through a bunch of topics
• 18:36
  being like here's
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: what i think
• 18:38
  there is something so audacious in the conception of ice cream
• 18:42
  he says while you've
• 18:43
  been talking i've been thinking about the 19th century and ice
• 18:46
  and actually what
• 18:46
  came to mind for me initially was the scene in little women
• 18:49
  where um she falls
• 18:51
  through the lake yeah what's her name amy amy falls through the
• 18:54
  ice and it's like
• 18:55
  so terrifying and joe realizes that she's been a bad sister um
• 19:00
  because she like
• 19:01
  didn't watch out for her and tell her not to skate on one piece
• 19:04
  of weak ice yeah
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: it's kind of interesting to me to think,
• 19:08
  like to contrast the Elsie Venner quote about ice cream with
• 19:12
  the little women scene
• 19:13
  of ice skating and the way that like ice was this like
• 19:18
  untouched territory in a
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: way.
• 19:20
  like i guess it's not safe to the point of what i'm going to be
• 19:24
  talking about also
• 19:24
  it's like ice used to be kind of like part of this great like
• 19:28
  the the natural world
• 19:30
  this thing that was like dangerous and like unknown and then it
• 19:33
  is turned into this
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: kind of like party trick essentially
• 19:37
  well and also like i can make ice like i can go into my freezer
• 19:41
  and put water in
• 19:41
  there and make ice but like when you said that they shipped ice
• 19:44
  to india i was like
• 19:45
  i guess there probably just wasn't anywhere a place cold enough
• 19:49
  no to make ice yeah
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: i mean i might i feel like i'm gonna be in trouble for saying that but
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think that'll be wrong.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay if you're wrong.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was like an interesting, like, I don't know.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know they used to ship ice from the Hudson all around.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, I was going to say.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe to the Caribbean.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that makes more sense.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: It seems like India is really far.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you know what I was also thinking about?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: Something we talked about this week was I,
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: for some reason,
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: I can't really explain was on this website for an aerospace company.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: And they were talking about how like.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Mabel's a spy.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: I can't explain.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: For reasons that I would be killed for explaining.
• 20:29
  Basically the sort of argument made by the marketing team of
• 20:32
  this aerospace company
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: was that humans were meant to fly.
• 20:35
  yeah you did tell me that and it really unsettled me and and
• 20:38
  then i had this
• 20:39
  thought while you were talking about how horrifying it is that
• 20:41
  like everyone all
• 20:42
  these europeans got to america on boat on boat by sea yeah and
• 20:49
  i was like well that
• 20:50
  also seems really wrong to me like i don't think humans belong
• 20:53
  in the sky and i
• 20:54
  also don't think humans belong on the sea yeah i think that
• 20:57
  like on a kind of like
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: visceral level,
• 21:01
  getting on a piece of wood and floating across the ocean makes
• 21:04
  more sense to me
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: than getting in a metal tube and going in the sky.
• 21:08
  yeah well were you telling me that like someone oh maybe like
• 21:12
  we we know someone
• 21:13
  who knows someone whose relative like has a mental disorder and
• 21:19
  isn't allowed to
• 21:20
  fly long distances anymore like on by psychiatric order because
• 21:24
  like the time
• 21:25
  traveling of flying like leaving one time zone and being jet
• 21:28
  lagged like sets off
• 21:29
  his mania oh you didn't tell me that and so like and we've
• 21:32
  talked but we have
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: talked about how like it is wrong
• 21:34
  like you feel it in your body i mean you know i have this
• 21:37
  anxiety where it's like i
• 21:38
  think being on an airplane is like like tinkerbell where if i
• 21:41
  don't believe in it
• 21:42
  while it's happening the plane will crash so i sit there the
• 21:45
  whole time and go no
• 21:46
  no it's real it's this is makes sense yeah that's what i do the
• 21:49
  whole time i'm on
• 21:49
  the plane well no no yeah it makes sense that no it's science
• 21:53
  we're flying
• 21:55
  but then like the aerospace video then went on to be like so
• 21:58
  much of human life and
• 21:59
  society relies on flying and i was like i guess that's true and
• 22:02
  like i have family
• 22:03
  who lives really far away and i love being able to fly to see
• 22:06
  them and i've flown
• 22:07
  places my entire life and it's kind of like an abstraction like
• 22:10
  when we saw your
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: brother in europe it's like
• 22:12
  it's so weird it's like we could be anywhere did we yeah i
• 22:16
  don't think so well and
• 22:16
  sometimes if i talk to my brother like vividly on the phone and
• 22:20
  we have a great
• 22:20
  conversation i'll be like i just saw him but i'm like no i
• 22:23
  didn't we just like
• 22:23
  connected like i think what it actually means to see someone is
• 22:27
  just to like feel
• 22:27
  like you know them but i also kind of believe that talking on
• 22:30
  the phone is wrong
• 22:30
  well yeah i mean i think about that a lot i just am so confused
• 22:35
  all the time about
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: like what it means to be present anyway go back to ice
• 22:40
  ice ice ice baby i also think about the scene in 13 going on 30
• 22:45
  where the 13 year
• 22:45
  old and jennifer garner's body goes on the date with the guy
• 22:48
  who does a sexy dance
• 22:50
  to ice ice baby i forgot about that and how scary that would be
• 22:54
  if you were a 13
• 22:55
  year old girl that would be scary to me if somebody started
• 22:57
  dancing in front of me
• 22:58
  right now i would have to crawl out and he's a hockey player an
• 23:01
  ice hockey player
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: so it's all relevant it all comes back
• 23:08
  okay well so now i'm actually going to move on from ice because
• 23:13
  um i made my point
• 23:17
  when i was doing my like refrigerator episode which is again
• 23:22
  where i started with
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: this i read two books
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: One of which you've read parts of,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: which is Nature's Metropolis,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Chicago and the Great West by William Cronin.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that was published in 1991.
• 23:35
  And I know you've read the chapter that was also the first
• 23:37
  thing I ever read from it about meat.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Disgusting.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the annihilation of time and space.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so I read that.
• 23:44
  I read the whole book thinking I would be talking about that
• 23:47
  chapter in relation to
• 23:48
  fish storage because that's really a chapter about refrigerated
• 23:50
  train cars and how
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: the way that the meat packing and meat lots in Chicago,
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: the stockyards,
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: that's what it's called,
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: in Chicago developed over time led to this kind of
• 24:08
  um accelerated advancement in refrigerating shipping technology
• 24:12
  that like made meat
• 24:14
  packing this kind of dehumanized thing where people never saw
• 24:17
  the food like never
• 24:18
  saw the cow that they ate as a whole cow and kind of like
• 24:20
  distinction between meat
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: as a product and like the flesh of the animal
• 24:25
  or like beef as opposed to like cow cow um and that's like
• 24:31
  something you have to
• 24:32
  learn now is that something you have to learn but then i was
• 24:35
  reading it this book
• 24:37
  is amazing i should read more than that one chapter you should
• 24:40
  yeah five years ago
• 24:41
  yeah because so and then the other thing that i read is the
• 24:44
  chapter that i the book
• 24:46
  a chapter from the book that i first i read parts of the book
• 24:50
  that i first learned
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: about the fish market fact from the chapter i don't know what i'm saying
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: You read a book.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's by Daryl Orgenstein.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was published in 2019 and it's called Out of Stock,
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: the Warehouse and the History of Capitalism.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a chapter called Flow or Fixity in Motion,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: the Warehouse,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: which is where I first learned the frozen fish fact.
• 25:09
  But the whole book is about kind of from the mid 19th into the
• 25:12
  mid 20th century,
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: the development of the technology of the warehouse.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 25:19
  But the chapter that really struck me actually when I was
• 25:22
  reading the Cronin book
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: in full was not the meat chapter.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: It was a chapter that precedes it about grain elevators.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, cool.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the development of grain storage.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: What is a grain elevator and what is a silo?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for asking.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm about to tell you in excruciating detail.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: So 1865,
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: in addition to being the year that that frozen fish warehouse opened,
• 25:49
  is the first year that the Chicago Board of Trade began to
• 25:52
  regulate futures
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: contracts.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: So today when we talk about futures trading,
• 25:56
  that concept on the stock market has its origins in the grain
• 26:02
  trade of Chicago in
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: the mid-19th century in 1865.
• 26:05
  I mean,
• 26:06
  they were doing it earlier,
• 26:07
  but 1865 is the first year that it's regulated.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll explain why.
• 26:12
  So futures trading is born out of the shift from basically like
• 26:20
  before grain
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: elevators were developed.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: I will explain what they are.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: If I was a farmer who grew wheat.
• 26:29
  I would put my wheat into bushels and give it and either take
• 26:35
  it myself to the
• 26:36
  closest city that had some kind of like grain exchange market
• 26:42
  or I would sell it to
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: a kind of middleman.
• 26:46
  But my bushel of wheat would never like enter a sort of stream
• 26:50
  of commerce where it
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: was part of 50 bushels of wheat.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: It would always be my bushel of wheat.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: So the quality of the wheat that I grew,
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: the weight of it,
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: the time of year,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: all would make a difference.
• 27:01
  And if it's spoiled in transport or if something happened,
• 27:04
  then I was fucked.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: Poor Madeline's bushel of wheat.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: My bushel of wheat was mine and mine alone.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, which is something comforting about that.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: What is... I have a question.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: When someone says in the song,
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: bushel and a peck,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: I love you a bushel and a peck,
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: is a bushel like a hug,
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: you think?
• 27:23
  no it's a bushel and a peck peppers oh okay i love you a bushel
• 27:26
  and a peck and a
• 27:27
  hug around the neck let's not talk at the same time i love you
• 27:32
  a bushel and a peck
• 27:33
  and a hug around the neck i don't know that song but a bushel
• 27:36
  and a peck are both
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: like ways of measuring food so it's like saying i love you this value
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, got it.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, keep going.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it's a double entendre because a peck is also a kiss.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: And a pecker.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Ew.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Mabel.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's a family-friendly show.
• 28:06
  clearing out um okay so in 1862 there's this thing called the
• 28:16
  homesteading act
• 28:17
  where westward expansion in the u.s is encouraged by this act
• 28:22
  that basically is
• 28:23
  like if you settle the land it's yours it's free land and
• 28:26
  that's like a huge part
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: of the development of the american west and the economy in the 1860s and
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because of that,
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: farming is moving westward,
• 28:39
  and this is the same development that is happening with the
• 28:41
  meat trade too,
• 28:42
  where there's endless grazing land in the west that's being
• 28:45
  taken over by these
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: settlers.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: And all of that stuff,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: rather than,
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: because there aren't cities in the west,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: there's no local markets for those goods to go to,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: they're then all getting funneled back to Chicago.
• 29:02
  and that also has to do with the way the railroads are
• 29:04
  developing um and you know
• 29:07
  because there are other cities that are kind of gateway cities
• 29:09
  like st louis for
• 29:10
  example but because of the way that the railroads develop
• 29:14
  chicago like really
• 29:14
  becomes the metropolis in the west and it's like the gateway
• 29:19
  from kind of the the
• 29:22
  what do they call it like the grain belt or bread bowl of the
• 29:26
  country what do they
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: call that
• 29:28
  bread basket bread bowl yum the country's endless breadsticks
• 29:36
  um the bread basket
• 29:39
  of the country to the east and so green elevators develop from
• 29:45
  there so that
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: instead of keeping track of
• 29:48
  you know millions of bushels from individual farmers that are
• 29:52
  being kind of bought
• 29:55
  and sold on a one-to-one basis where like if you buy wheat
• 29:58
  you're buying a specific
• 29:59
  bushel of wheat from a specific farmer to a more abstract kind
• 30:03
  of like the green
• 30:04
  elevator essentially acts as a bank where i can deposit a
• 30:08
  bushel of wheat you can
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: take out a bushel of wheat and
• 30:11
  And it has no really like what I put in and what is taken out
• 30:15
  has no bearing on one another.
• 30:17
  Like I could put in my wheat and get my receipt and then come
• 30:20
  back two weeks later
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: and take my wheat out.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not my wheat anymore.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's just wheat.
• 30:26
  does that relate to like a standardization of what it costs to
• 30:29
  buy a bushel of
• 30:30
  wheat it relates to a standardization of what it would cost to
• 30:33
  buy it and it also
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: relates to a kind of like to the point of these like health concerns the
• 30:39
  introduction of a grading system about like quality that is
• 30:44
  sort of arbitrary
• 30:46
  because no longer are you able to like say like i want that one
• 30:49
  that one's better
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: if you're presented with three options and
• 30:52
  because you're just getting out whatever you give the receipt
• 30:55
  for so you have this
• 30:55
  kind of like flattening that degrades the standard of
• 30:58
  everything everything you
• 30:59
  know what it reminds me of you know when you get your dog
• 31:02
  tragically passes away
• 31:04
  and you get it cremated you have to pay extra to make sure that
• 31:07
  the ashes are like
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: at least 90 your dog what you haven't gotten there yet
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: No, my dog is alive.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: Well, she's sleeping.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: But if Fran ever dies,
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: which I'm not sure she will,
• 31:19
  you'll bring her to the vet or they'll put her down at the vet
• 31:22
  and then they'll
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: cremate her.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, all of my dogs have gotten put down at home.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, my dad's dog got put down at home.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, then you'll bring the corpse...
• 31:30
  To the vet and basically like it cost $200 to get a box of
• 31:35
  ashes and your dog was
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: in the crematorium when they set the fire.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: But it doesn't mean that you got Fran.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: You might have gotten like someone else's dog a little bit or mostly.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: But if you want like the kind of a la carte best option,
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: you pay like $500 to be like this is mostly Fran.
• 31:52
  My mom has like ashes from several of our dogs just like
• 31:55
  sitting around the house.
• 31:56
  that's like probably not your dog unless she paid more which
• 31:59
  she probably did she
• 32:00
  might have yeah but still like and this is true for humans too
• 32:04
  no what yeah because
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: i think it's like one big oven
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: You don't think they do humans one at a time?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think they gotta be efficient about it.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's really, like, holocaust-y.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it definitely is holocaust-y.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I know, but, like, I think... It's like a mass grave.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: I was at least,
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: comforted by the concept that,
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: it was one at a time,
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: and so,
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: it was kind of a respectful,
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: like...
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we need to have an episode about death ritual soon.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like every episode is about death.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: It was a very dark time in human history.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: The 19th century.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway,
• 32:36
  I think that what you're talking about for the green elevator
• 32:40
  is similar to the dog
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: crematorium.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like about to start crying.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's really crazy.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: I've really been... Okay.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm fine.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: How sad, you guys.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um...
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: What was I going to say?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I think that does relate to something I will get to later also.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think part of the reason this was so interesting to me is because,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 33:11
  I never really thought about the invention of these things
• 33:13
  because they're just so
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: much a part of our lives and,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: even...
• 33:19
  that like my family has a csa and like yeah like has this kind
• 33:24
  of like cutesy thing
• 33:26
  where we get our special stuff from our special farmers is like
• 33:30
  so such a luxury
• 33:32
  yeah that it's like it never would have occurred to me kind of
• 33:36
  the process by which
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: that stopped being the way that everyone did everything
• 33:43
  yeah well I was just thinking that too because I was just in
• 33:46
  Martha's Vineyard
• 33:46
  which is an island and then it's like there's amazing fish and
• 33:49
  there's also amazing
• 33:51
  livestock and there's amazing vegetables all of it grown and
• 33:54
  caught and you know
• 33:56
  butchered there and like I ate so well yeah and I felt so good
• 34:00
  when I came back
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: yeah and that is such a like
• 34:03
  it felt like vacation it's such a luxury i think and and yeah
• 34:07
  i've been in the
• 34:08
  hudson valley which is the same sort of like i haven't eaten
• 34:11
  anything that was like
• 34:12
  grown anywhere else anywhere else you feel better i'm glowing
• 34:16
  yeah you look great
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: thank you you too um
• 34:20
  But what was also interesting about this is so that's happening
• 34:23
  and there's all of
• 34:24
  these kind of conversations about like the way that people are
• 34:27
  cheating this system
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: and the fact that it's making the food quality worse.
• 34:29
  There's all these concerns like Chicago grain because of the
• 34:32
  development of these
• 34:33
  large grain elevators gets this really bad reputation where
• 34:37
  people will like favor
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: buying their grain from other places where they're not,
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: where it's not going through this kind of like massive grouping.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: What a grain elevator is essentially is like a,
• 34:51
  um you like because you grain is a bushel or whatever is like a
• 34:56
  it's all big you
• 34:58
  know yeah it's all big so basically a grain elevator is like a
• 35:03
  um almost like an
• 35:04
  assembly line thing where you like deposit your grain and it
• 35:07
  automatically like
• 35:08
  weighs it and there's someone there who like takes a sample of
• 35:12
  it and grades it to
• 35:14
  whatever quality and then just puts it into these much larger
• 35:17
  sort of silos of
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: storage
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: Does it get milled at some point or does that happen?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's a separate thing.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: The green elevator is really just like a bank at storage.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is it an elevator?
• 35:27
  I think it's called that because silos are high,
• 35:33
  go up and then things come out the bottom.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: I actually don't know though.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: okay so you told me you're going to explain what a grain elevator was and
• 35:40
  excruciating i know i didn't i didn't look into the
• 35:43
  architecture of it as much as i
• 35:44
  should have i do know that there is like a lot of architectural
• 35:47
  history about grain
• 35:51
  storage and like silo construction and modernist architecture
• 35:56
  because european
• 35:57
  modernists came to the u.s and were really inspired by these
• 36:02
  kind of industrial
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: buildings
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then like went back and started doing like minimalism in Europe.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like the Bechers and stuff.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: The what?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 36:11
  like that couple that took all those photos that were in the
• 36:15
  Met a couple of years
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: ago.
• 36:16
  They took like these amazing photos of factories,
• 36:18
  like every single factory in Germany.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: And they're really beautiful.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you do.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Google it.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know exactly what you're talking about,
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: but yeah,
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: like Breuer and Corbusier and all of these architects that are like,
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: people are like,
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: they're so avant-garde.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: They're so cutting edge.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: They're like doing things that have never been done before.
• 36:39
  They're like really inspired by concrete industrial
• 36:43
  architecture in the U.S.,
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 36:45
  it's also interesting to think about the barn as the
• 36:48
  architectural form of the
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: United States up until this moment.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: Everything looks like a barn.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: A church is a barn.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: A barn is a church.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: Your house looks like a barn, whatever it is.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: My house.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: Your house is a barn.
• 37:00
  you sleep i sleep in a hayloft you know and like i've read like
• 37:06
  medieval historical
• 37:07
  fiction where they are like at a big banquet hall that has like
• 37:09
  a hayloft around
• 37:11
  the edges and like going to sleep in the hayloft while
• 37:13
  everybody else is still
• 37:14
  partying downstairs sounds so fun and i've always wanted to do
• 37:17
  it but hay is itchy
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: and i would have been sneezing sneezing it was warm
• 37:21
  yeah that makes sense that's the thing yeah well heat rises
• 37:24
  this is important no i
• 37:26
  think hey like i remember reading some like historical fiction
• 37:29
  when i was a kid so
• 37:30
  far afield from what we're talking about where this girl is
• 37:33
  like like homeless and
• 37:34
  like cold and she gets in like a hay like a heap of hay that's
• 37:40
  kind of like a where
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: people are throwing garbage
• 37:42
  and it's so warm in there because all of the activity or like
• 37:46
  you know when you
• 37:47
  take a painting class and you can't put oil in the cans because
• 37:50
  like piles of
• 37:50
  garbage like generate heat and if you put oil rags in they can
• 37:54
  spontaneously
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: combust yeah it's like that totally i think that happens in tests of the
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: d'urbervilles yeah
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, okay.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: So grain elevators are invented.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: Homesteading act.
• 38:11
  All of this food is coming now through this one city,
• 38:13
  which has never happened before.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: And what all of this is leading to is essentially like...
• 38:22
  deeper and deeper levels of abstraction from the farmer growing
• 38:27
  grain as even like,
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 38:30
  a one-to-one thing into this kind of like abstract concept of
• 38:35
  grain and then even
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: further into sort of an abstract concept of value,
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: which is what the grain elevator becomes and what futures training is.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: So now I'll explain that.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: I did tell my family friend was like,
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: what are you guys talking about on the podcast this week?
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I said,
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to talk about the adventures,
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: the adventures,
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: the invention of futures trading.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: And he was like, you're going to talk about that?
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to figure out what a futures is, what a futures is.
• 39:09
  Okay.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: So basically,
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: as I was saying,
• 39:12
  it gets to the point where there's no longer any relationship
• 39:15
  between what I put
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: into the grain elevator and what I call out later.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: Can I offer a guess of what I think it is, futures?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 39:24
  I think that people probably start trading on the value of the
• 39:29
  crop that hasn't yet
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: been grown.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 39:32
  And whereas like in the past,
• 39:35
  a farmer's livelihood would be made or broken by the season.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: Or like the time they had growing that year and the quality of the crop.
• 39:44
  But what they're saying is like if we pull together the likely
• 39:47
  value of all the
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: farmers,
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: that's worth a million dollars.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: So they're like betting on the next crop essentially.
• 39:54
  And what it does is it stabilizes the market because it's no
• 39:59
  longer made or broken by one crop.
• 40:03
  but it also creates all these opportunities to manipulate the
• 40:07
  market which is why
• 40:09
  in 1865 the chicago board of trade starts regulating it for the
• 40:13
  first time so is it
• 40:18
  like the 2008 housing crisis basically it's like based on the
• 40:21
  invention of this
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: yeah yeah so
• 40:26
  the origin of the futures market is so this this like grain
• 40:29
  bank exists and from
• 40:34
  there i can start there start being these types of contracts
• 40:37
  futures contracts
• 40:39
  where i can set a price for the grain at a future date and
• 40:45
  regardless of what the
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: actual price of grain is at that date i
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I buy X amount of grain from you on X date,
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: when that date comes,
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: if grain is worth more than what we agreed to,
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: then I stand to make a lot of money.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's worth, worth less than you stand to make a lot of money.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's kind of this like gamble.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:11
  and it's like whether you buy or sell your bitcoin when it's
• 41:15
  high or low don't
• 41:16
  remind me what i did and when you sell your bitcoin for
• 41:21
  listeners i had six bitcoin
• 41:24
  that i sold in like 2016 for six thousand dollars which was way
• 41:31
  more than i paid
• 41:31
  for it and i bought three really expensive pairs of pants and
• 41:36
  today i could have
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: bought a house what pants did you get
• 41:41
  um i got a pair of leather pants i don't even have any of these
• 41:44
  pants anymore i
• 41:45
  think i'm done buying clothes and i'm saving up for gold by the
• 41:49
  way i meant to tell
• 41:50
  you well i have gold but i want to buy like a block of gold
• 41:54
  like a gold bar yeah
• 41:56
  that would be cool yeah you're wearing gold today i am wearing
• 42:00
  gold what happened
• 42:02
  something's changing the winds of change are blowing in maybe
• 42:05
  i've invested in a
• 42:06
  lot of bushels of wheat when those contracts come due you're
• 42:11
  gonna have a windfall
• 42:13
  money falling um okay yeah so this new kind of contract is
• 42:17
  called to arrive
• 42:18
  contracts i'm gonna have to just read this right now for a
• 42:20
  second because i don't
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: really understand and then we can talk about it again
• 42:25
  okay but basically the two arrive contracts which is like this
• 42:29
  date comes and you
• 42:30
  owe a certain amount whatever begins what in the two like what
• 42:38
  the big short is
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: about like this idea of short selling
• 42:40
  where you're gambling that the price is going to go down from
• 42:43
  what you originally
• 42:45
  thought it would or like that it's going to go down from what
• 42:49
  you think people will
• 42:50
  owe you for it so if if we have this contract where you owe me
• 42:53
  grain at x value and
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: the value of grain is way lower then like i make a lot of money um and
• 43:05
  it starts basically like this kind of contracting means that
• 43:13
  very little grain is
• 43:14
  actually changing hands because you and I are just buying grain
• 43:17
  elevator receipts
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: from one another while we do this.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's no,
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: like we're not,
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not actually when I say the contract is due being like,
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: give me my 50 bushels of wheat.
• 43:25
  You just have to pay me the difference in the value so that I
• 43:28
  could take out the
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: wheat if I want it.
• 43:30
  does this also mean that they end up producing way more wheat
• 43:32
  than anybody actually
• 43:33
  needs no because like there are still markets that are buying
• 43:38
  the wheat like people
• 43:39
  obviously need to eat bread yeah well this is like when russia
• 43:43
  invaded ukraine also
• 43:44
  like that is the bread basket of the world um there's a quote
• 43:49
  in this book that's
• 43:50
  about yeah i don't know have anything to say about that because
• 43:53
  i don't know about
• 43:54
  it's just interesting that like ultimately wheat prices went up
• 43:57
  right yeah but like
• 43:58
  yeah so the economy is one thing but then at some point like we
• 44:01
  do need to eat yeah
• 44:02
  people need to eat yeah so the the kind of like eventual
• 44:06
  outcome of this futures
• 44:07
  trading even though like futures trading does stabilize the
• 44:09
  market that's like the
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: thing about it that is good
• 44:12
  it also creates this volatility and these opportunities for
• 44:15
  people to like make a
• 44:15
  ton of money on which only works because at some point people
• 44:20
  do actually need to
• 44:20
  eat like if it was all so abstract to the point that like oh
• 44:24
  we're just trading
• 44:25
  these receipts back and forth and nobody's ever touching the
• 44:27
  grain in the elevator
• 44:28
  it wouldn't really matter but the problem arises when like
• 44:32
  people need to buy bread
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really expensive.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: But it creates a situation where this historian Morton Rothstein wrote,
• 44:42
  the futures market when viewed in the most cynical terms was a
• 44:44
  place where men who
• 44:45
  don't own something are selling that something to men who don't
• 44:48
  really want it.
• 44:50
  like it's just a gambling and it's sort of has nothing to do
• 44:55
  with the actual
• 44:55
  physical good and so the quality of grain suffers the like the
• 44:59
  consumer suffers
• 45:01
  when these things happen and it also leads to this thing called
• 45:05
  cornering the
• 45:05
  market which now is like sort of general stock trading term
• 45:10
  you've heard to corner
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: our market
• 45:12
  Oh,
• 45:13
  like if I want to corner the market on like 19th century novels
• 45:16
  or something.
• 45:17
  But what that was at the time is that basically you and I would
• 45:20
  start a syndicate
• 45:22
  and we would low key like go around and buy up all of the grain
• 45:26
  receipts that we
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: could.
• 45:28
  so that everyone needed to come to us yeah so that we could
• 45:33
  create we could create
• 45:34
  a situation where we own all of the grain and then when
• 45:37
  people's futures contracts
• 45:38
  come due since we own all the grain that is currently in
• 45:43
  whatever and we say we're
• 45:44
  not going to sell it then all of a sudden the price goes way up
• 45:48
  so people whose
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: contracts are due have to pay much higher prices so
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: then they,
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: it's a reversal of the short sale,
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: basically,
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: where we've forced the price up by owning all the grain.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like, everybody wants something that we have.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: We are so lucky.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: Out of breath.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's just crazy to me actually.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know what it's making me think about?
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: What?
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'll give you your lungs a break.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: Have you, you've read Stoner, right?
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: By John Williams.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: Have you read Butcher's Crossing?
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's his Western.
• 46:24
  And like the whole thing about John Williams is he like,
• 46:26
  he wrote a Western.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: He wrote like an academic novel.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: He wrote like a Roman, you know,
• 46:30
  trojan story genre guy he's a genre guy and the western
• 46:34
  butcher's crossing is about
• 46:36
  this guy who like i think went to yale and was like an east
• 46:39
  coast like highly
• 46:39
  educated elite young man who decides that he wants to spend his
• 46:42
  like last summer
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: before like probably entering the futures industry
• 46:46
  um out west and like maybe like he's just kind of like takes a
• 46:50
  train as far west as
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: he can he gets out of town he goes to a bar and he like meets this really
• 46:55
  charismatic older guy who's like oh you should we should use
• 46:59
  your money that you
• 47:00
  have to go to this place that nobody else can afford to go
• 47:03
  where there's tons and
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: tons and tons of um buffalo
• 47:07
  and so they take this like really treacherous journey to this
• 47:10
  place and the guy's
• 47:12
  like insisting like this is an oasis of all of these buffalo
• 47:15
  like and nobody knows
• 47:16
  about it it's my secret it's kind of like it it's like el
• 47:19
  dorado or something yeah
• 47:20
  but it's also like now i'm rereading this book in my mind it's
• 47:23
  kind of like a
• 47:24
  metaphor for all of what you're talking about so they make it
• 47:26
  to this butcher's
• 47:27
  crossing i think is what it's called yeah and they like have a
• 47:31
  are you ruining this
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: book for me if i ever read it yeah should i stop here
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, stop there.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because I want to read it.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's really good.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's, like, already on my list.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, like... Yeah.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway,
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: everyone should read it,
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: but...
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: I would say if I thought I would never read it and let you spoil it.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's really good.
• 47:46
  But there's something...
• 47:48
  Can I say just that,
• 47:49
  like,
• 47:49
  there's something about kind of,
• 47:50
  like...
• 47:51
  the oasis the place with the plenty and the like the
• 47:55
  impossibility of actually like
• 47:57
  translating that into the market that's like what i think like
• 48:00
  i think about this
• 48:01
  with different forms of fiction a lot it's like the sort of
• 48:04
  invention of the
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: western as this kind of like idol like edenic
• 48:10
  like bread basket only really comes about in this period where
• 48:13
  it's that's the
• 48:15
  reality of that is that it's being turned into this speculative
• 48:17
  market that has
• 48:18
  nothing to do with the kind of like fantasy of homesteading and
• 48:22
  western yeah life
• 48:24
  like you only get these kind of romantic fantasies of the like
• 48:28
  el dorado of buffalo
• 48:29
  and the nature in this time where the railroads being built
• 48:32
  across the u.s and
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: buffalo are being exterminated essentially and like you know
• 48:37
  like we created this situation where there's scarcity of
• 48:40
  buffalo and that that
• 48:41
  creates the fantasy of abundance and the value of the buffalo
• 48:44
  like the hides are
• 48:45
  the last hides or whatever yeah it's also making me i saw a
• 48:49
  preview for a new movie
• 48:50
  that's coming out that's called the fountain of youth and like
• 48:52
  emily blunt and like
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: maybe it's actually not emily bun it's like john krasinski her husband
• 48:58
  plays like these people who are like when people get married
• 48:59
  they become one
• 49:01
  they're like yeah it's 2025 and like we're on a new expedition
• 49:04
  to find the fountain
• 49:05
  of youth that really connects with me because i grew up in
• 49:08
  florida exactly it's so
• 49:10
  interesting that these like those sort of like fantastical
• 49:14
  things like the
• 49:14
  northwest passage and the fountain of youth these things that
• 49:17
  people came to like
• 49:18
  the americas to pursue yeah like that kind of fantasy sort of
• 49:22
  drops out the closer
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: in time you get to the 19th century
• 49:27
  in a way but it's like because people had more but like now i
• 49:30
  do think like i think
• 49:32
  ozempic is like a fountain of youth i think botox is a fountain
• 49:34
  of youth like it's
• 49:35
  all become way more commercial paddington no where he goes to
• 49:39
  peru paddington in
• 49:40
  peru no i didn't see it yet yet operative working out um that's
• 49:46
  about el dorado oh
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: okay that is interesting
• 49:50
  um and about kind of like a conquistador heritage that's oh
• 49:55
  that he has that
• 49:57
  paddington has that antonio banderas has well and paddington
• 50:02
  who's like a goodly
• 50:03
  soul kind of like runs up against it but not to spoil too much
• 50:07
  about i know it's
• 50:08
  like why am i not allowed to spoil a book and you're allowed to
• 50:11
  tell me what
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: paddington in peru is about
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: But the keepers of El Dorado are the bears,
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: which is kind of like this natural,
• 50:18
  like a sort of like nature versus culture fantasy of like
• 50:21
  Antonio Banderas being
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: the descendant of these conquistadors,
• 50:25
  this kind of conquering cultural force and the bears being the
• 50:30
  holders of El
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: Dorado,
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: which I won't say what that is.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what you think.
• 50:36
  Yeah.
• 50:37
  oh i'm so curious i'll be watching paddington goes to peru yeah
• 50:41
  no no no okay um it
• 50:43
  was also i mean not to always i've been thinking about a few
• 50:46
  other things while
• 50:47
  you've been talking okay like the in terms of like our personal
• 50:51
  distance um from
• 50:54
  like the food we eat and like i kind of i really remember
• 50:57
  distinctly when you moved
• 50:59
  to connecticut from new york a couple of years ago you were
• 51:02
  like i'm trying to eat
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: my pantry
• 51:05
  and i really remember that phrase and then yeah and you were
• 51:07
  like eating all the
• 51:08
  cans of beans that you had bought for no reason yeah and then
• 51:11
  when i moved recently
• 51:12
  i had to eat my pantry and my friend katie is now moving and
• 51:14
  she's eating her
• 51:15
  pantry yeah and like katie in particular shout out katie like
• 51:17
  she's just she's such
• 51:19
  a good cook and stuff she's like a chef yeah she's for me it
• 51:21
  was like a child i was
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_01: like why did i get like rice like what does one do with rice flour
• 51:25
  yeah and like katie probably knows and she's moving like
• 51:28
  further than we moved like
• 51:29
  she's moving across the country so she's like do i pack my
• 51:32
  pantry yeah and i think
• 51:33
  the answer is no but i'll see you next week i'll find out for
• 51:35
  sure um but just like
• 51:38
  we're surrounded by food but we don't even understand the value
• 51:42
  of what we have and
• 51:43
  yeah and like there's something comforting i think to all of us
• 51:46
  to stockpile and i
• 51:47
  think like both of our stockpiles of beans probably descends
• 51:50
  from covid in a way
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: yeah like i never had a pantry full of like
• 51:55
  food before covid yeah but i never thought i mean covid is the
• 51:59
  first time i ever
• 52:00
  had to think of like with any sort of like scarcity mentality
• 52:03
  about like being able
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: to get groceries the amount of toilet paper my mother bought
• 52:08
  like we're still working through it yeah it's just like it was
• 52:11
  like a novel
• 52:12
  experience to have to be like oh i might not be able to get xyz
• 52:18
  so i should have
• 52:19
  you know something on hand for if i can't get like fresh
• 52:22
  vegetable remember the
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: great dill shortage because
• 52:27
  um yeah and then i was thinking about this also now in
• 52:30
  relationship to ozambic
• 52:31
  where like i think that abstracts food too and like there's all
• 52:35
  these articles like
• 52:36
  what it means to date on ozambic and it's like the plate of
• 52:38
  food as prop that
• 52:39
  people are just like pushing around yeah um and rebecca and i
• 52:43
  were just talking
• 52:44
  about like will like thinness start to have a new like thinness
• 52:48
  and i think that is
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: going to go out
• 52:51
  yeah because i think there's actually going to be something
• 52:53
  like so empowering
• 52:54
  about like about eating well and having a need for food i think
• 52:58
  it's a bit of the
• 52:59
  like if everyone can have it i mean to go back to like why
• 53:03
  being thin historically
• 53:05
  has not been attractive is because everyone was thin because
• 53:07
  they were literally
• 53:08
  starving and laboring and that's like rebecca and i were
• 53:11
  talking about that like
• 53:12
  fat used to be like the goal because you were so rich that you
• 53:15
  didn't have to do
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_02: anything like i think that's gonna happen again
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: and like,
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: this like the kind of like,
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: everyone's on Ozempic so everyone can have this is kind of like,
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: it's pathetic and grasping to want to be seen in that way.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 53:29
  it's also like what you've been talking about has also been
• 53:32
  making me think yet
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_02: again about the thing I can't stop talking about,
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_02: which is the Lauren Greenfield documentaries.
• 53:37
  the queen of versailles and generation wealth and in generation
• 53:40
  wealth like the
• 53:41
  narrative kind of of the film in a way starts like in 1971 when
• 53:46
  they abolished the
• 53:47
  gold standard and like how that like unleashed this like market
• 53:51
  for money and this
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_02: wealth frenzy that was no longer tethered to an actual limited resource
• 53:57
  and it's like in some ways i think when you talk about this
• 54:00
  economy of wheat it's
• 54:01
  like nowadays i think people are nostalgic for that type of
• 54:05
  capitalism because now
• 54:06
  it's gone so bonkers that it's like yeah where it's like you're
• 54:09
  making up like like
• 54:10
  imagine trying to explain what a shit coin is to someone on the
• 54:13
  chicago or doge or
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: like 65 whatever psychotic
• 54:17
  or that like now if i have a lot of credit card debt i can get
• 54:20
  another credit card
• 54:21
  to pay off my credit card debt and like the cycle continues and
• 54:24
  my life is defined
• 54:25
  by debt and well i mean this is like that's one of the things
• 54:28
  that's interesting to
• 54:29
  the we've talked about like buying debt before as something
• 54:32
  that was happening in
• 54:33
  the 19th century like surprisingly early like the louisiana
• 54:36
  purchase but this feels
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: to me like the beginning of kind of this like i
• 54:42
  I was talking to someone recently about like running a business
• 54:45
  in the arts and how
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: it's essentially like,
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: it's a fucking like cup game.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like nobody has money.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's moving money around in all these weird ways.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like none of it's real.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't like,
• 54:57
  it's all kind of this sort of mentality of like futures trading
• 55:00
  where you're like
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: betting on getting this grant or like abstractly,
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: we know this money is coming in at some point.
• 55:08
  Like there's nothing concrete about the money that goes around,
• 55:11
  at least like in the arts.
• 55:12
  academia that I can understand it's all made up I recently met
• 55:16
  this lovely woman
• 55:17
  whose last name I can't remember but her name is Sophia you
• 55:19
  maybe met her and she
• 55:20
  wrote this Sophia yeah um and she wrote this book called I
• 55:24
  think sex work and it's
• 55:26
  she's like a sex worker but also works in the arts and it's
• 55:29
  about like how the art
• 55:30
  world and the sex work industry are truly the same thing I'm
• 55:34
  gonna get be talking
• 55:35
  about this later I feel like you're headed towards like the
• 55:37
  abstraction of flesh
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: the abstraction of value it's all the same that's an amazing transition
• 55:42
  let's move on you're welcome thank you yeah so so all of this
• 55:46
  is happening this
• 55:47
  like kind of very concrete economic abstraction is happening
• 55:52
  concrete abstraction
• 55:54
  is happening in the context of the american civil war and it's
• 55:58
  happening in the
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: u.s.
• 55:59
  And part of the reason that these markets are able to kind of
• 56:02
  be remade in this way
• 56:04
  and are stabilized is because the demand from the Union Army
• 56:07
  for goods like oats to
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: feed their horses and pork for the soldiers.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: Pork for the horses.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: Pork for the horses and oats for the soldiers is so...
• 56:20
  huge that speculative markets in these commodities like boom
• 56:24
  because there's just
• 56:26
  it's known that there's going to be this huge demand for them
• 56:29
  and the way that that
• 56:31
  the army is consuming is changing things beyond just goods like
• 56:37
  oats and pork
• 56:37
  although it's like those are i think food there's something
• 56:40
  about food that's very
• 56:41
  easy to connect with conceptually because it's like of course
• 56:44
  you need food
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_01: But this is also changing the way clothes are made, for example.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: You have the standardization of sizing coming out of...
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: Which was invented with Civil War uniforms.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, out of uniforms.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: And even the same way...
• 56:59
  um like textile production and which is obviously very deeply
• 57:05
  rooted to the
• 57:06
  southern economy because of cotton it's like this the whole
• 57:09
  global economic system
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: is being revealed in this way because of the american civil war yeah
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: And also with that,
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_01: you have the very direct,
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: obviously,
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: like trade in flesh that is the sort of root of the wars,
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: like the slave trade and the ethics of that.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm going to move us to Europe now.
• 57:34
  by United States by United States because the way that those
• 57:37
  questions are
• 57:38
  resonating through both like the moral economy and also the
• 57:44
  actual economy of
• 57:45
  Europe are like very relevant to the way that this is changing
• 57:49
  the economy on a
• 57:50
  global scale so slavery had been illegal in the UK since like
• 57:57
  the end of the 18th
• 57:58
  century I think 1805 or something is when they abolished the
• 58:01
  slave trade maybe 1805
• 58:03
  Yeah,
• 58:04
  I thought it was like the 1790s for some reason,
• 58:06
  but you're probably right.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't know.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think 1805 is when they did it in France.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 58:15
  So in France,
• 58:17
  slavery was abolished with the revolution,
• 58:19
  obviously for reasons.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: Liberté.
• 58:22
  Liberté that I don't really have to go into,
• 58:25
  but then was reinstated with Napoleon.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: Napoleon?
• 58:30
  no not napoleon i think with the with the bourbon restoration
• 58:35
  bourbon restoration
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: and that was like 1814 yeah and then i don't remember exactly when it was
• 58:43
  reinstated but basically it was reinstated at some point
• 58:45
  slavery was allowed again
• 58:46
  and then it was abolished for the second time in 1848 and is
• 58:49
  that like slavery in
• 58:50
  french colonies or slavery on the france mainland well in the
• 58:54
  colonies because i
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_01: don't
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to be smart about this,
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_01: but I don't like,
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: they didn't really have slaves on the mainland of France.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: Did they?
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think they had like house slaves.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: But it wasn't like integral to the economy of France in the same way.
• 59:12
  Like other than the fact that the colonies were integral to the
• 59:16
  economy of France.
• 59:17
  Like it wasn't like the United States South where like having
• 59:20
  slaves in the metropole was like,
• 59:24
  generating the income of the nation it was all kind of it was
• 59:27
  always like sort of a
• 59:27
  foreign concept and that it was like happening somewhere else
• 59:30
  we've talked about
• 59:31
  this with like Jane Austen novels where it's like people who
• 59:34
  are engaged in the
• 59:35
  slave trade and Jane Austen novels are like talking about the
• 59:38
  economics of it but
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: it remains kind of like always elsewhere mm-hmm
• 59:42
  it's compartmentalized to the colony is far whereas in the
• 59:44
  united states it's
• 59:45
  something that people are like living with on a very like
• 59:48
  intimate real intimate
• 59:50
  daily level so that's a huge difference between what is
• 59:52
  happening in europe and in
• 59:55
  america and i think that on that contributes to this kind of
• 1:00:00
  like the fact that
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: also by 1865 the uk and france have a kind of like
• 1:00:10
  uh temporal distance also from being engaged in the slave trade
• 1:00:14
  in the same way
• 1:00:15
  like makes the questions about the united states a bit more
• 1:00:19
  complicated and
• 1:00:20
  abstract like ethical and moral questions rather than these
• 1:00:25
  sort of like meaningful
• 1:00:27
  economic questions that they're sort of being treated as in the
• 1:00:30
  american south does
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: that make sense i think so
• 1:00:34
  keep going i just think there's like a bit more of a nuance and
• 1:00:38
  and i think that
• 1:00:39
  you see that really clearly in the art of the time in the uk
• 1:00:44
  and france whereas
• 1:00:45
  like the civil war is being represented in american art in a
• 1:00:49
  sort of different
• 1:00:50
  valence because it's about this kind of like like winslow homer
• 1:00:55
  like these like
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_01: brothers fighting or this kind of like um
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: What's the word?
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, uh, uh, um, what's the word?
• 1:01:07
  Like Winslow Homer will paint kind of like enslaved people,
• 1:01:11
  like in a,
• 1:01:12
  um,
• 1:01:14
  pastoral.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: Pastoral, but.
• 1:01:16
  bucolic no how do people always describe the victorian like
• 1:01:20
  sentimental i don't
• 1:01:22
  really agree what do you mean like about winslow homer's
• 1:01:27
  paintings of black i think
• 1:01:29
  he's like making an argument like he's making a political
• 1:01:32
  argument and those works
• 1:01:33
  that's like a bit different than what what i'm going to talk
• 1:01:35
  about is mayonnaise
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_01: olympia
• 1:01:37
  and the like racial argument of olympia is just it's it's
• 1:01:41
  operating on a different
• 1:01:42
  like emotional valence than winslow homer's depictions which
• 1:01:44
  are like making a
• 1:01:45
  political like abolitionist argument oh okay do you see what
• 1:01:48
  i'm saying yeah i
• 1:01:49
  thought you were going in a different direction where did you
• 1:01:51
  think i was going
• 1:01:52
  I thought you were saying that there was,
• 1:01:53
  like,
• 1:01:54
  no politic to Winslow Homer.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, I was saying the opposite.
• 1:01:56
  I'm saying there is a politic and that there's...
• 1:01:59
  Like,
• 1:02:00
  Manet is abstracting.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_01: Manet is abstracting.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I'm going.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_01: I agree with you.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm talking about abstraction.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:09
  And so in 1865,
• 1:02:12
  Manet's Olympia is exhibited for the first time in the Paris
• 1:02:14
  Salon.
• 1:02:15
  It was painted in 1863,
• 1:02:17
  but because of some bad publicity that Manet had,
• 1:02:22
  he didn't exhibit.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think he was refused that year, and then he didn't do 1864.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_01: He took a sabbatical.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, people did not like him.
• 1:02:33
  So I have some notes here that I'm just going to go over about
• 1:02:37
  the Paris Salon.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because I don't think, do people know what that is?
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: Probably not.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: We'll find out.
• 1:02:42
  So the Paris Salon was an annual exhibition that took place in
• 1:02:47
  May and began in 1673.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a longstanding tradition that preceded the revolution.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it was called the Salon because beginning in 1673,
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: it was held in a salon,
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_01: like a square room inside of the Louvre.
• 1:03:04
  um and it was an exhibition of living artists so every year
• 1:03:06
  then a palace which was
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: then the royal palace yeah um and every year
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think something like 3000 artists,
• 1:03:14
  mostly members of the Beaux Art Academy would submit their most
• 1:03:18
  recent works and a
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_01: jury of their peers would select the works that would go on display.
• 1:03:23
  And it was one of the only times that the public was able to
• 1:03:26
  like go look at the
• 1:03:28
  work of contemporary living artists because museums at the time
• 1:03:31
  didn't show like,
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: they were not like modern art museums.
• 1:03:34
  no and the louvre was the palace and i feel like an important
• 1:03:38
  point always to make
• 1:03:39
  about like french art history is just there were all of these
• 1:03:41
  royal academies and
• 1:03:43
  there was like sort of societies that you had to gain access to
• 1:03:46
  like if you wanted
• 1:03:46
  to be a painter you had to be trained in this really particular
• 1:03:49
  way and that's why
• 1:03:51
  like a lot of american painters went to france or went to italy
• 1:03:56
  which didn't have
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_02: necessarily the same systems but like had traditions of painting
• 1:04:00
  um yeah and like even when we were in Paris recently we walked
• 1:04:03
  by the building
• 1:04:04
  where you're like that's where all the words get made like
• 1:04:06
  France yeah like France
• 1:04:07
  still has that yeah exactly like and still like all these ways
• 1:04:10
  in which France like
• 1:04:11
  has always regulated what it means to be an artist and what it
• 1:04:14
  means to use
• 1:04:14
  language and I think a lot of that starts around I don't
• 1:04:16
  remember exactly like what
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: the um the like
• 1:04:21
  chronology is but 1673 is around the same time where it's like
• 1:04:24
  the birth of the
• 1:04:25
  enlightenment and you have the establishment of the Ecole de
• 1:04:28
  Beaux-Arts the Ecole
• 1:04:28
  de Belle Lettre I think is the language one and then there's
• 1:04:32
  the Royal Academy of
• 1:04:33
  Science and medicine I think there's one medicine yeah there's
• 1:04:36
  like four or five
• 1:04:37
  academies that got established at this time that are like in
• 1:04:40
  French society they
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_01: become like the standard
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_02: and I think not to spoil what you're going to say,
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_02: like I think the because there are all these rules and regulations,
• 1:04:49
  that's why there's also all these scandals when people paint
• 1:04:52
  something that's not
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_02: allowed.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and also so the mid 19th century.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that that happens under the monarchy.
• 1:04:58
  Then the French Revolution happens in the 1790s and the Louvre
• 1:05:02
  is turned into a
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_01: museum for the public.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 1:05:06
  there is a little bit of the because of the politics of the
• 1:05:11
  revolution the kind of
• 1:05:13
  authority of those academies is called into question but then
• 1:05:16
  there's the bourbon
• 1:05:17
  restoration and then there's napoleon and then there's the
• 1:05:20
  second empire and it's
• 1:05:23
  during the second empire in the mid-19th century that we are
• 1:05:26
  kind of entering this
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: story and
• 1:05:31
  Louis Napoleon's rule during the second empire is really
• 1:05:34
  skeptical of the kind of
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_01: Republicanism.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_01: So he's,
• 1:05:40
  he and his government are really interested in reasserting the
• 1:05:44
  authority of like
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: the Academy to Beaux-Arts.
• 1:05:46
  So it becomes newly important in the 1850s and 60s because it's
• 1:05:50
  threatening to have
• 1:05:52
  people who are working outside of the structures of the Academy
• 1:05:56
  to his rule as the
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_01: emperor.
• 1:05:58
  it's very like mafa like make france whatever like we're like
• 1:06:03
  maha mafa and i just
• 1:06:06
  was thinking for the you know like there's been all these quote
• 1:06:08
  no kings protests
• 1:06:09
  about trump yeah and like the i i've been like pretty
• 1:06:13
  fascinated and like don't
• 1:06:14
  quite know how to articulate what i'm saying like people
• 1:06:17
  protesting the idea that
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_02: trump is making himself into a king we should bring back the wig party
• 1:06:22
  maybe but and i'm going to talk about the wigs a little bit
• 1:06:25
  soon with you but like
• 1:06:27
  that trump wants to become the thing that like the united
• 1:06:30
  states was purportedly
• 1:06:31
  founded to reject like the idea that we deserved democracy and
• 1:06:36
  didn't want to be
• 1:06:37
  ruled by a monarch far away yeah and like that's so napoleon
• 1:06:41
  and so bourbon
• 1:06:41
  restoration like these people who were like actually we want to
• 1:06:44
  bring the kings
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_02: back we want to make the louvre back into a palace
• 1:06:48
  and Louis Napoleon or Napoleon the third is like in the second
• 1:06:52
  empire is kind of an
• 1:06:53
  interesting like struggle that I think is really resonant with
• 1:06:57
  what's happening
• 1:06:57
  today because he's like negotiating the fact that he's an
• 1:07:00
  emperor he's like ruling
• 1:07:02
  by military coup he has these like fake elections you know it's
• 1:07:05
  totally like he's
• 1:07:07
  doing like huge amounts of media suppression they're doing mass
• 1:07:11
  arrests like it's
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_01: really an authoritarian government and
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_01: but he's trying to still foster because he,
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_01: he knows the power of the people and he knows that,
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: this is now basically 60 years into France,
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_01: having a new government,
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_01: like every 10 years,
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_01: France is like one of the most unstable countries in the 19th century.
• 1:07:32
  It's like really crazy how often they were having revolutions
• 1:07:36
  and overthrows and to
• 1:07:38
  be producing like some of the most important cultural
• 1:07:41
  touchstones of the 19th
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_01: century.
• 1:07:42
  On top of that,
• 1:07:43
  I think like really speaks to something about the values of
• 1:07:45
  French culture,
• 1:07:46
  um,
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_02: Oh,
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_02: I was actually going to say too,
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_02: like you and I were just discussing because,
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:07:52
  the world is going to hell and it's such a terrible time in
• 1:07:55
  human history.
• 1:07:55
  Like we were kind of talking about the politics of our project
• 1:07:58
  of Mandy Lyon and of 1-800-1800.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's maybe like worth articulating that,
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think we both find it personally comforting to,
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_02: in a way,
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_02: talk about these moments in the past where the world as we know it,
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_02: the world as we value it was like really disruptive.
• 1:08:13
  like yeah the revolutionary principles of the french revolution
• 1:08:16
  like these
• 1:08:17
  beautiful ideas about liberty and equality and respect like
• 1:08:20
  we're totally lost and
• 1:08:22
  then they get revived and but then also like talking about this
• 1:08:25
  like horrific time
• 1:08:26
  in french history where everyone was totally suppressed but
• 1:08:28
  then that produced like
• 1:08:29
  some of the most important art that we still value yeah and
• 1:08:32
  like i don't and some
• 1:08:33
  of the most like revolution like quote revolutionary art like
• 1:08:36
  the world like to
• 1:08:38
  talk about abstraction like abstraction is invented in the arts
• 1:08:41
  in this period
• 1:08:42
  as a kind of like way to revoke the authority of the beaux art
• 1:08:50
  yeah well and like
• 1:08:51
  and the past isn't a blueprint but there are like ways that i
• 1:08:54
  think our own culture
• 1:08:55
  is like mirroring and replaying these older narratives and
• 1:08:59
  actually kind of makes
• 1:09:00
  me think about addison ray of course what does it make me think
• 1:09:03
  about addison i
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_02: think about her constantly
• 1:09:06
  um and like her quote about talking about how like taste is a
• 1:09:10
  privilege yeah and
• 1:09:12
  how i'm just like curious to see in the next five years what it
• 1:09:16
  means to be cool or
• 1:09:18
  to do interesting things well i think like addison i guess yeah
• 1:09:22
  to that point like
• 1:09:24
  One of the things that is so interesting to me about what
• 1:09:26
  Addison Rae is doing is
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_01: it's the first thing that I've seen in a long time where it's like,
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_01: obviously she's like referencing all of these earlier pop stars.
• 1:09:35
  Like her album is really like influenced by Britney Spears and
• 1:09:39
  Madonna in the way
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_01: that's like very obvious.
• 1:09:42
  I'm not like saying she's,
• 1:09:44
  you know,
• 1:09:44
  made some new thing nobody's ever heard before.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_01: but it is the first,
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_01: like the visuals,
• 1:09:51
  especially like are the first thing I've seen in a long time
• 1:09:53
  that really feel new.
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_02: I was saying the same thing the other day.
• 1:09:56
  It's where like,
• 1:09:57
  it feels like I can identify the references,
• 1:09:59
  but it feels like a new thing.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and also I was explaining this to Rebecca.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 1:10:03
  I feel like everything in the last five years has been a
• 1:10:06
  reference to the early
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_02: 2000s,
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_02: but it's always the exact same fucking thing.
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, um, what's that horrible pop star, um, Madison beer, um,
• 1:10:16
  I'm not familiar with her body of work but like I just was for
• 1:10:20
  some reason thinking
• 1:10:21
  about it like she has this music video for a song which I
• 1:10:23
  actually do listen to
• 1:10:23
  it's not that bad but it's like the music videos it's actually
• 1:10:27
  very similar to the
• 1:10:28
  Ariana Grande music video where she she puts herself into Mean
• 1:10:31
  Girls she puts
• 1:10:32
  herself into Bring It On like where and like the same thing
• 1:10:35
  with Madison Beer she
• 1:10:36
  like plays Jennifer's body and like everything I feel like
• 1:10:39
  we've been culturally
• 1:10:39
  there and pop like everything has just been like oh I'm
• 1:10:43
  referencing the 2000s by
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_02: literally wearing Lindsay Lohan's costume
• 1:10:46
  and then addison wright is like so entrenched in the early
• 1:10:50
  2000s but she made it
• 1:10:51
  different and she made it new because she's also like calling
• 1:10:56
  in i think she's like
• 1:10:58
  really smartly calling in like she's a master of the
• 1:11:02
  contemporary moment like she's
• 1:11:04
  the most popular tiktoker and like also then actually bringing
• 1:11:08
  in older references
• 1:11:09
  like a lot of her madonna references are from the 80s my mom
• 1:11:12
  watched the fame as a
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_01: gun video because i sat my mom down for an hour and made her
• 1:11:16
  to be clear your mom does not have bodily autonomy right now i
• 1:11:20
  sat on my mom's
• 1:11:21
  hospital bed and put my laptop in front of her face and gave
• 1:11:24
  her an hour-long
• 1:11:24
  presentation on adison ray but during the fame is a gun video
• 1:11:28
  my mom was like you
• 1:11:29
  know it actually reminds me of um like an 80s hairband video
• 1:11:33
  like the quality of
• 1:11:34
  the film is very like that kind of 80s like noir like it also
• 1:11:38
  reminds me of like
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_02: fame yeah like the movie fame
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_01: But then like the, and the blonde, whatever.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, what was my point about this?
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh,
• 1:11:47
  what I was going to say about all of this and the moment of the
• 1:11:51
  second empire is
• 1:11:52
  like also something that I think about and kind of like looking
• 1:11:55
  back in the lessons
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_01: we can learn is like,
• 1:11:57
  one of the ways that louis napoleon kind of manipulated the
• 1:12:00
  public and was able to
• 1:12:01
  get away with having this more author authoritarian regime is
• 1:12:05
  by producing these
• 1:12:06
  gigantic spectacles so the 1867 exposition the baron houseman's
• 1:12:12
  like renovation of
• 1:12:12
  paris which was like good for the city it created more
• 1:12:16
  efficient sewers but it also
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_01: like opened the boulevards i mean the sewers situation in france
• 1:12:21
  i know it's really bad it's just like funny to go from like big
• 1:12:24
  public spectacle to
• 1:12:25
  sewer well they would do like tours of the sewers it was like
• 1:12:28
  like it was huge
• 1:12:29
  people were so excited yeah um but like the the broadening of
• 1:12:34
  the boulevards which
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_01: is this like you know both creating a kind of
• 1:12:39
  like a modern city in a city that had not really been renovated
• 1:12:43
  in that way since
• 1:12:44
  the middle ages but also then made it much more difficult to
• 1:12:47
  barricade the streets
• 1:12:48
  which is something I've been thinking about a lot recently with
• 1:12:51
  like seeing the
• 1:12:51
  videos of people barricading the ice vans like the barricade is
• 1:12:56
  actually like
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_01: remains a very important
• 1:12:59
  yeah tool in this way that like i don't think we've really had
• 1:13:01
  to address in our
• 1:13:03
  like conscious lives and like we were talking about this
• 1:13:06
  yesterday like about
• 1:13:06
  whether you know we should stockpile weapons for revolution but
• 1:13:10
  like i do think
• 1:13:10
  like the mass has a power that like the most powerful weapons
• 1:13:13
  can't actually
• 1:13:14
  conquer yeah i mean unless it's like an a-bomb um and then i
• 1:13:19
  don't think it matters
• 1:13:19
  if you're barricading the city but like yeah people have a
• 1:13:22
  physical force that is
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_02: really powerful
• 1:13:24
  but like louis napoleon is like sort of both removing that
• 1:13:28
  power by introducing
• 1:13:29
  these wider streets but also creating like a new visuality in
• 1:13:32
  the city where like
• 1:13:32
  you get the kind of concept of the flanner where like somebody
• 1:13:35
  is like walking
• 1:13:36
  around like to be seen and see like the city becomes a sort of
• 1:13:39
  space of um what's
• 1:13:42
  the word like well the flanner is the original cool guy
• 1:13:45
  original like cool guy but
• 1:13:46
  also it's a bit of a like um what's the word like spying like
• 1:13:51
  yeah panopticon yeah
• 1:13:53
  SPEAKER_01: yeah
• 1:13:54
  why can i never remember the word for anything i don't know i
• 1:13:58
  don't know it's how
• 1:14:00
  do you say okay talk about olympia the best painting of all
• 1:14:03
  time so olympia is a
• 1:14:05
  SPEAKER_01: painting oh wait olympia is a painting moving on period
• 1:14:10
  SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to finish about the salon.
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_01: So in 1855,
• 1:14:13
  the salon moves from its original location in the Louvre to a
• 1:14:17
  building that was
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_01: built for the 1855 exposition.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's called the Palais de Champs-Élysées,
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_01: but you would know it more familiarly as the Palais de L'Industrie,
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_01: the Palace of Industry.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a huge cast iron exhibition hall.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_01: And back to the grain trade.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_01: So when it's not being used for the salon,
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_01: the one month of the year that it is,
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_01: it is a place where there are agricultural exhibitions.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_01: When it moves to this exhibition hall,
• 1:14:47
  that is also a space where there are equestrian competitions
• 1:14:51
  and agricultural trade
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_01: fairs when the salon is not in use as the,
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_01: or when the building is not in use as the art salon.
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_01: is this mass spectacle of contemporary art,
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_01: which is something that is sort of a novelty of the 19th century.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess churches would be a place that that happened before,
• 1:15:14
  but it wasn't really about going to see what was happening in
• 1:15:17
  the art world at the
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_01: time.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_01: If you went to go look at the unveiling of a new church.
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_01: You were probably thinking about God.
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_01: And rightly so.
• 1:15:25
  Every moment we're not thinking about God is a moment we're
• 1:15:27
  stealing from God.
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that actually, I'm reading Swan's Way right now.
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Are you?
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't tell me that.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I would tell you in person.
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_00: I can't believe you didn't tell me.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_00: We should be reading it together.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Have you not read it?
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_00: There are parts of it.
• 1:15:44
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm only like 230 pages and you can catch up.
• 1:15:47
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:15:48
  But there's all these amazing scenes about the art in the local
• 1:15:52
  church and like the
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_02: different,
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_02: there's like these
• 1:15:56
  tapestries of esther in the church that like some people in the
• 1:15:59
  town hate and some
• 1:15:59
  people love and it was just like i don't know there was like a
• 1:16:02
  utility that art
• 1:16:03
  served for most of human history that is actually broken in
• 1:16:06
  this moment in a way
• 1:16:07
  like yeah when it becomes like so one of the things that this
• 1:16:11
  book that i'm reading
• 1:16:12
  this book by a man named ross king it's like a popular history
• 1:16:15
  of the founding of
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_01: you didn't tell me you were reading that
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes I did actually.
• 1:16:20
  Only when I asked the Judgment of Paris and it's like a popular
• 1:16:22
  history of this
• 1:16:23
  moment of like the founding of Impressionism and one of the
• 1:16:27
  things that he talks a
• 1:16:28
  lot about is that like the fact that this happened in the same
• 1:16:32
  place as these
• 1:16:33
  agricultural trade fairs which I think like obviously connects
• 1:16:35
  to what I was saying
• 1:16:36
  earlier about kind of the development of the corn trade is like
• 1:16:39
  the moment that art
• 1:16:40
  is becoming a market in the same way that like you might show
• 1:16:44
  your pigs for sale
• 1:16:45
  you are showing the paintings that you want to enter the market
• 1:16:48
  and like how
• 1:16:48
  accrue value in this way and the other thing that he really
• 1:16:52
  emphasizes that I
• 1:16:53
  thought was interesting is that it that this the big deal about
• 1:16:58
  the numbers of the
• 1:16:59
  Paris salon is that it drew more crowds than public executions
• 1:17:02
  which was like
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_01: basically the national pastime in France like um and uh
• 1:17:11
  They were more accessible to most Parisians than a lot of other
• 1:17:16
  public events.
• 1:17:17
  SPEAKER_01: It cost one franc to enter the fair on most days and was free on Sundays.
• 1:17:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so even the lowest wage workers in Paris,
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_01: like wash women,
• 1:17:27
  SPEAKER_01: would make three to four francs a day.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it was affordable to go see the paintings.
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then on Sundays it would be extremely crowded.
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_01: You would get as many as 50,000 visitors.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_01: And King also says that,
• 1:17:41
  so 50,000 visitors in a single day is five times the number
• 1:17:44
  that had attended the
• 1:17:45
  1857 guillotine execution of a priest who murdered the
• 1:17:48
  Archbishop of Paris to
• 1:17:50
  SPEAKER_01: emphasize this point about public.
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was more people.
• 1:17:54
  Five times more people in one day at the salon than went to
• 1:17:57
  this like massive public execution.
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad that I can't go to a public execution.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it'll be brought back though.
• 1:18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that,
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_01: In some years,
• 1:18:08
  the salon was so popular that it would have a million visitors
• 1:18:11
  over the course of
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_01: its six-week run,
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_01: which averages to about 23,000 a day,
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_01: and you'll think this is interesting.
• 1:18:17
  So he compares that to two Met exhibitions that took place in
• 1:18:22
  2003 when he wrote this book.
• 1:18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Da Vinci?
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Da Vinci.
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to guess what the other one is?
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 2003.
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_01: They were the two most popular exhibitions in the world that year.
• 1:18:33
  SPEAKER_02: Was one of them a costume one?
• 1:18:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, they were both...
• 1:18:36
  SPEAKER_02: Was it Michelangelo?
• 1:18:37
  SPEAKER_02: Did they do a Da Vinci and a Michelangelo that year?
• 1:18:39
  SPEAKER_01: No, but it was another master.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_02: I guess.
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_01: El Greco.
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Ah!
• 1:18:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just kidding.
• 1:18:44
  SPEAKER_01: You idiot.
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so to compare.
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that's an average of 23,000 visitors a day, a million visitors total.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Leonardo da Vinci,
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_01: which had...
• 1:18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh,
• 1:18:54
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't write down the length of the run,
• 1:18:56
  SPEAKER_01: but it averaged...
• 1:18:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was a 12-week run.
• 1:19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Da Vinci was six weeks and El Greco was nine weeks.
• 1:19:03
  Da Vinci had 6,863 visitors a day for a total of 401,000,
• 1:19:08
  so that's less than half.
• 1:19:09
  SPEAKER_01: That was the most popular museum exhibition in 2003.
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_02: When the Met is really crowded,
• 1:19:15
  SPEAKER_02: which I think it's...
• 1:19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 1:19:16
  SPEAKER_02: our visitorship,
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_02: is less than that average.
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like, it's... The number of people, like, the human...
• 1:19:22
  mass is crazy so there's no air conditioning there's no air
• 1:19:27
  conditioning and it was
• 1:19:29
  organized like by letters so there's no real logic to how you
• 1:19:32
  move through it and
• 1:19:33
  so for example in 1865 when Olympia was shown it was like this
• 1:19:37
  scandalous portrait
• 1:19:39
  and everyone was going to like point and laugh at it basically
• 1:19:42
  and so there would
• 1:19:43
  be these crowds that gathered around it and so you couldn't
• 1:19:46
  move through the M room
• 1:19:48
  SPEAKER_01: at all it was alphabetical by artist's last name yeah it's like a library
• 1:19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the other,
• 1:19:53
  the El Greco exhibition had 6,897 visitors a day for a total of
• 1:19:58
  575,000 over the
• 1:19:59
  SPEAKER_01: course of the nine week run.
• 1:20:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's still like basically half.
• 1:20:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of surprising that El Greco is more popular than Da Vinci.
• 1:20:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think El Greco is more popular than Da Vinci.
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think Da Vinci was a shorter show.
• 1:20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 1:20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um...
• 1:20:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think probably Italy was like, can we have them back now?
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Can we have them back now?
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Can we have them back now?
• 1:20:22
  SPEAKER_01: I can't even imagine how much they need to go back.
• 1:20:24
  SPEAKER_01: They were so mad.
• 1:20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_01: So Olympia,
• 1:20:27
  SPEAKER_01: for those who don't know,
• 1:20:28
  is a very famous portrait that is like one of the things that
• 1:20:36
  Manet kind of like
• 1:20:40
  SPEAKER_01: innovated,
• 1:20:41
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 1:20:42
  SPEAKER_01: in terms of like the development of modern painting,
• 1:20:44
  SPEAKER_01: which is that he's playing with genre where
• 1:20:47
  SPEAKER_01: This is a female nude laying on a chaise longue and... An odalisque?
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what it's called?
• 1:20:53
  It's in the genre of an odalisque and it's also in the genre of
• 1:20:59
  Titian's Venus of Urbino.
• 1:21:01
  SPEAKER_01: These kind of sexy Venus paintings.
• 1:21:04
  But the difference between what Manet does and what Titian is
• 1:21:07
  doing is that
• 1:21:08
  Venus is a goddess and is beauty and so even though there are
• 1:21:12
  these more like
• 1:21:13
  SPEAKER_01: suggestive iterations of her,
• 1:21:15
  the Venus of Urbino is famous because her fingers are kind of
• 1:21:18
  like slipping between
• 1:21:19
  SPEAKER_01: her legs and people always think she's masturbating and
• 1:21:23
  SPEAKER_01: I believe that it was painted for,
• 1:21:26
  SPEAKER_01: I forget who was painted for,
• 1:21:27
  but it's thought that whoever commissioned its mistress was the
• 1:21:32
  model for Venus.
• 1:21:33
  So it is kind of like related to what Manet is doing in that
• 1:21:36
  it's a specific woman,
• 1:21:38
  but these nudes were socially acceptable to be seen because
• 1:21:41
  they were like,
• 1:21:42
  abstracted ideals of beauty not one single nude individual
• 1:21:46
  woman it's like making a
• 1:21:48
  naked woman into a goddess yeah versus like a kind of like if
• 1:21:52
  you're representing
• 1:21:53
  an individual woman rather than an ideal then it's pornography
• 1:21:56
  in the kind of idea
• 1:21:58
  SPEAKER_01: of the day i know it when i see it i know it when i see it um and so the
• 1:22:08
  the model olympia olympia also in paris in that period is a
• 1:22:12
  common name that's
• 1:22:13
  taken by prostitutes and prostitution is legal in the second
• 1:22:17
  empire and is one of
• 1:22:18
  the things that critics of louis napoleon's regime often point
• 1:22:22
  to as like a thing
• 1:22:24
  that he has legalized prostitution basically as like a narcotic
• 1:22:27
  of the masses to
• 1:22:28
  distract from his authoritarian regime it's like a carnival
• 1:22:31
  yeah but and like and
• 1:22:33
  SPEAKER_01: it is this kind of like trade in flesh again it's just like
• 1:22:36
  this flesh trade that is like being very directly compared to
• 1:22:39
  the art market and
• 1:22:41
  Manet's painting and has these political valances because it's
• 1:22:46
  enabling this
• 1:22:47
  SPEAKER_01: authoritarian government to operate unnoticed.
• 1:22:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's the TikTok of its time.
• 1:22:51
  SPEAKER_01: It really is.
• 1:22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:22:52
  And you know,
• 1:22:52
  I've become obsessed with all these bop house girls on TikTok.
• 1:22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:22:57
  so yeah i'm not gonna ask any follow-ups because i already
• 1:23:01
  heard it once no i was
• 1:23:02
  gonna actually use that as my fact of the week that i forgot i
• 1:23:05
  know but essentially
• 1:23:06
  that's like i mean in in the contemporary version of it it's
• 1:23:09
  like these are girls
• 1:23:10
  who are the generating millions and millions of dollars on only
• 1:23:14
  fans like are
• 1:23:16
  equivalent to the legal prostitution of the second empire and
• 1:23:21
  it's this bizarre
• 1:23:23
  SPEAKER_01: like
• 1:23:25
  acceleration of the abstraction I'm talking about because these
• 1:23:28
  are women where
• 1:23:29
  like none of the people who are paying them ever actually have
• 1:23:32
  physical contact
• 1:23:33
  with them which is like obviously not the case with the
• 1:23:36
  courtesans of Second Empire
• 1:23:39
  Paris where it's like the fact of the matter is no matter how
• 1:23:42
  many millions of
• 1:23:45
  SPEAKER_01: francs they're getting from their
• 1:23:47
  like dons or they're like whatever clients yeah they're clients
• 1:23:51
  but courtesan is a
• 1:23:52
  little different because it's like more of a mistress
• 1:23:54
  relationship but either way
• 1:23:58
  like the ultimate fact of the matter is that they like they can
• 1:24:01
  only be coquettish
• 1:24:03
  to a certain point like play the game to a certain point at
• 1:24:05
  some point they have to
• 1:24:06
  have sex with the person whereas like these like bophouse girls
• 1:24:10
  they're dealing in
• 1:24:12
  SPEAKER_01: futures they're dealing in futures they really are
• 1:24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I just think it's fascinating.
• 1:24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 1:24:22
  And,
• 1:24:23
  um,
• 1:24:23
  the,
• 1:24:24
  the other thing about my name now,
• 1:24:25
  like contemporary discussions about Olympia.
• 1:24:27
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 1:24:28
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 1:24:29
  SPEAKER_01: in the portrait,
• 1:24:30
  the other figures in the portrait are a black cat that has like
• 1:24:34
  an arched back and
• 1:24:35
  SPEAKER_01: is kind of a like,
• 1:24:36
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:24:37
  SPEAKER_01: sexual innuendo.
• 1:24:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then, yeah, that's my, um, my international workers of the world.
• 1:24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 1:24:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's a Wobblies poster.
• 1:24:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's so funny.
• 1:24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that funny?
• 1:24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Scary cat.
• 1:24:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's a cat poster over there.
• 1:24:53
  SPEAKER_01: But then also a black figure named,
• 1:24:56
  who is a maid who's handing Olympia a bouquet of roses or
• 1:25:01
  flowers wrapped in paper.
• 1:25:02
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a big exhibition at the Musée d'Orsay...
• 1:25:07
  I think in like 2018 or 2019 about black models in the
• 1:25:11
  development of modern art
• 1:25:12
  and the sitter for the maid figure in Olympia is a woman named
• 1:25:18
  Lore and she was a
• 1:25:20
  known model who Mene painted at least one other time and is
• 1:25:24
  like she's one of the
• 1:25:26
  few people who black sitters for modernist painters who can be
• 1:25:30
  like even only by
• 1:25:31
  SPEAKER_01: first name but can be identified by name and so there's a lot of
• 1:25:36
  more contemporary criticism I mean TJ Clark wrote a whole book
• 1:25:39
  about Manet and he
• 1:25:41
  talks there's like a line in the book but essentially like
• 1:25:44
  someone was reading it
• 1:25:45
  and said to him I can't believe you spent 50 pages talking
• 1:25:48
  about the white figure
• 1:25:48
  and didn't mention the black figure once which is kind of like
• 1:25:51
  historically how
• 1:25:54
  criticism of this painting is like people just ignore that
• 1:25:57
  figure more contemporary
• 1:25:59
  SPEAKER_01: like criticism obviously in the wake of
• 1:26:04
  2020 and different conversations about blackness and art and
• 1:26:07
  this big exhibition
• 1:26:08
  which did come to New York it was shown I don't remember where
• 1:26:11
  it was but the
• 1:26:12
  Dorsey exhibition came to New York as like the it was like
• 1:26:14
  called the black models
• 1:26:15
  show or something yeah it wasn't at the Met it wasn't at the
• 1:26:17
  Met there was a
• 1:26:19
  different I mean Olympia was just in New York like when Manet
• 1:26:22
  Degas was here like
• 1:26:23
  yeah which was a bit of a different it was different um but
• 1:26:28
  anyway so Darcy Grigsby
• 1:26:31
  SPEAKER_01: has written about it and writes about how basically like
• 1:26:34
  the implication of a black figure in a brothel would be like
• 1:26:38
  heightened eroticism
• 1:26:40
  and how um the black figures sort of enables the the whiteness
• 1:26:46
  of the white figure
• 1:26:47
  and kind of this contrasting construction of different forms of
• 1:26:53
  femininity and
• 1:26:53
  sexual identity that are deeply embedded in the racial dynamics
• 1:26:57
  of the image as
• 1:26:58
  SPEAKER_01: well that's not always been acknowledged um
• 1:27:03
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 1:27:05
  but the other thing is the model for Olympia is a woman named
• 1:27:11
  Victorine Morin,
• 1:27:13
  SPEAKER_01: who was also the sitter for Le Déjeuner de,
• 1:27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Le Déjeuner Sœur L'Herbe,
• 1:27:21
  the picture where she's nude and there's the two clothes
• 1:27:24
  figures in the picnic.
• 1:27:26
  SPEAKER_01: And she was, she was,
• 1:27:31
  someone who sat for Manet a lot and so there's also um a famous
• 1:27:35
  portrait that he
• 1:27:36
  did of her in essentially drag it's like in Spanish costume
• 1:27:41
  she's in a matador
• 1:27:42
  costume that's at the Met that's at the Met and she's no no
• 1:27:45
  that's it is that a
• 1:27:47
  different matador that's at the Met there's another portrait of
• 1:27:50
  her in Spanish
• 1:27:51
  dress at Yale okay he made two he's crazy which one is he loved
• 1:27:56
  Spain that's weird
• 1:27:57
  SPEAKER_01: um
• 1:28:01
  shout out to our listeners in spain your listener in spain um
• 1:28:06
  uh yeah and she's a
• 1:28:11
  really interesting character like she appears in a an irish
• 1:28:16
  author's autobiography
• 1:28:18
  at the beginning like 1903 or something as a middle-aged woman
• 1:28:21
  she's in a lesbian
• 1:28:22
  SPEAKER_01: relationship with another famous courtesan courtesan
• 1:28:26
  so she's kind of this like her the question of like her
• 1:28:29
  femininity and sexuality
• 1:28:30
  and conversation with these like racial um over like the like
• 1:28:36
  racial politics of
• 1:28:37
  the day is like doubly interesting because I think she was like
• 1:28:41
  also someone who in
• 1:28:42
  her daily life was playing with gender conventions yeah so
• 1:28:47
  there's like a lot of
• 1:28:48
  SPEAKER_01: layering going on and I feel like
• 1:28:51
  SPEAKER_02: you sort of talked about this,
• 1:28:52
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:28:52
  SPEAKER_02: she is not idealized at all in the image,
• 1:28:54
  SPEAKER_02: and so,
• 1:28:55
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:28:55
  SPEAKER_02: you can look at her dirty fingernails.
• 1:28:57
  Yeah,
• 1:28:58
  the contemporary criticism is,
• 1:28:59
  like,
• 1:29:00
  why did he have this ugly girl?
• 1:29:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it was the same with Déjeuner Solerbe.
• 1:29:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's,
• 1:29:04
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:29:04
  SPEAKER_01: everyone was,
• 1:29:05
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:29:05
  SPEAKER_01: she has,
• 1:29:05
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:29:06
  SPEAKER_01: love handles,
• 1:29:07
  SPEAKER_01: and she's hideous,
• 1:29:09
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:29:10
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 1:29:11
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 1:29:11
  SPEAKER_01: her hands are dirty.
• 1:29:13
  SPEAKER_01: She looks like she's been working,
• 1:29:14
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:29:15
  SPEAKER_01: so the kind of,
• 1:29:16
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:29:16
  even the racialized dynamic of the labor of the maid versus the
• 1:29:19
  prostitute,
• 1:29:20
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the prostitute is also a laboring body.
• 1:29:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's not an idealized,
• 1:29:25
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:29:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:29:26
  SPEAKER_01: leisurely body in the same way as a nude by,
• 1:29:31
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Angers Odalisque,
• 1:29:34
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 1:29:35
  SPEAKER_01: which is,
• 1:29:35
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:29:36
  SPEAKER_01: the nude of the Beaux-Arts Academy in the years preceding mayonnaise.
• 1:29:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that Odalisque is so, like,
• 1:29:44
  SPEAKER_01: she's almost made of glass or something.
• 1:29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's that one.
• 1:29:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's,
• 1:29:48
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:29:48
  SPEAKER_01: a criticism from the 19th century that's,
• 1:29:51
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:29:52
  SPEAKER_01: says she has three extra vertebrae.
• 1:29:54
  SPEAKER_02: She's very, like... Yeah, she's so supple.
• 1:29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:29:57
  And it's...
• 1:29:57
  I find it actually so unsettling and,
• 1:29:59
  like,
• 1:30:00
  she looks like an alien.
• 1:30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:30:02
  SPEAKER_01: But it's,
• 1:30:02
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:30:02
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 1:30:02
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:30:03
  SPEAKER_01: if the sitter for that walks by you on the street,
• 1:30:04
  SPEAKER_01: you would never know where it's Victorine Morant.
• 1:30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is... It's like a photograph.
• 1:30:09
  SPEAKER_01: You can identify her in mayonnaise.
• 1:30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Pick images, like, over and over.
• 1:30:12
  SPEAKER_01: She has this kind of, like...
• 1:30:15
  you know very identifiable face and figure yeah and she
• 1:30:19
  actually interestingly was
• 1:30:20
  a painter in her own right and there is a self-portrait of her
• 1:30:26
  that she did like
• 1:30:27
  later in her life there's very few identifiable works by her
• 1:30:31
  but this portrait i
• 1:30:32
  think it's at the mfa in boston and it's like the way that she
• 1:30:36
  looks versus the way
• 1:30:37
  SPEAKER_01: she's represented in manet paintings is really interesting i don't know
• 1:30:43
  I didn't really think that much about that but anyway so Manet
• 1:30:48
  one of the things
• 1:30:49
  that Manet is credited with and particularly in these two works
• 1:30:52
  that feature
• 1:30:52
  Victorine Morant is the like the invention of abstraction and
• 1:30:58
  he's you know
• 1:30:59
  contemporary criticism also would make fun of him and say his
• 1:31:02
  brush strokes were
• 1:31:03
  applied with a broom like because the Beaux's art style is so
• 1:31:08
  precise and is about
• 1:31:09
  SPEAKER_01: like realism and
• 1:31:11
  one of the things they would do is paint on a dark ground like
• 1:31:15
  they would prime
• 1:31:15
  their canvases with dark colors so that you had these really
• 1:31:19
  illusionistic depths
• 1:31:21
  whereas Manet is painting on a white like primed canvas and you
• 1:31:26
  can sometimes see
• 1:31:27
  the canvas coming through and it's very much about like
• 1:31:29
  abstracting the idea of
• 1:31:30
  SPEAKER_01: paint on canvas and and
• 1:31:35
  what representation is and what playing with these kind of
• 1:31:38
  conventions of art
• 1:31:39
  history does well it's so funny because it's like a
• 1:31:42
  non-abstracted vision of a
• 1:31:44
  woman painted with abstract brush strokes yeah and like the
• 1:31:49
  planes of the like
• 1:31:50
  rather than the kind of like like one of the things they were
• 1:31:53
  taught at the
• 1:31:53
  Beaux-Arts is how to essentially erase the remnant of a brush
• 1:31:58
  stroke from your
• 1:32:00
  SPEAKER_01: painting like it that was a failure whereas Manet is like
• 1:32:05
  there are parts of many canvases that are just like chunks of
• 1:32:08
  paint laid on.
• 1:32:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:32:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 1:32:11
  SPEAKER_02: I was just,
• 1:32:12
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 1:32:12
  sometimes I'm lucky enough to have the experience where I'll be
• 1:32:15
  like looking at a
• 1:32:15
  painting in the Met's collection online and then I'll get to go
• 1:32:18
  see it in real
• 1:32:19
  SPEAKER_01: life.
• 1:32:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I was looking at a painting of,
• 1:32:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think the enunciation.
• 1:32:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then I have, like, I just sort of randomly walk by it.
• 1:32:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the weirdest thing.
• 1:32:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I stopped and looked more closely.
• 1:32:29
  SPEAKER_02: And do you get this,
• 1:32:30
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:32:30
  I think that there's something as like about old masters and
• 1:32:34
  sort of like more
• 1:32:35
  SPEAKER_02: academic painting where I find it like,
• 1:32:38
  SPEAKER_02: I get this like feeling of panic inside me when I'm looking at a paint,
• 1:32:41
  SPEAKER_02: like a great work of old master painting,
• 1:32:43
  SPEAKER_02: because I'm like,
• 1:32:45
  SPEAKER_02: what is it?
• 1:32:46
  SPEAKER_02: And like it, I believe what you're describing is, um,
• 1:32:50
  SPEAKER_00: The, uh... Never mind.
• 1:32:55
  SPEAKER_02: Was it worth interrupting?
• 1:32:58
  SPEAKER_02: What's the word?
• 1:33:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, uncanny?
• 1:33:02
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 1:33:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like, the opposite uncanny?
• 1:33:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's something so big.
• 1:33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Aw?
• 1:33:09
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 1:33:10
  SPEAKER_01: But, yeah.
• 1:33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Sublime.
• 1:33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Sublime, yeah.
• 1:33:12
  SPEAKER_01: The experience of the sublime.
• 1:33:14
  Yeah,
• 1:33:14
  and I think it's like there's something overwhelming about what
• 1:33:17
  great painting is.
• 1:33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:33:20
  SPEAKER_02: like the way that,
• 1:33:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
• 1:33:22
  SPEAKER_02: I always think about this,
• 1:33:23
  like I actually don't find the experience of looking at
• 1:33:26
  painting to be that
• 1:33:27
  SPEAKER_02: pleasurable because I think either I find it hard to see,
• 1:33:32
  SPEAKER_02: like sometimes I find painting hard to see,
• 1:33:34
  SPEAKER_02: especially if they're framed in glass.
• 1:33:37
  And it's even like when it's not glazed,
• 1:33:39
  there's sometimes like a reflectivity.
• 1:33:41
  SPEAKER_02: You love painting.
• 1:33:42
  SPEAKER_02: I love painting.
• 1:33:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I'm moved by them.
• 1:33:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think what I'm describing is being moved.
• 1:33:47
  SPEAKER_02: But I think there's also this like,
• 1:33:50
  when they do erase their brush stroke you're kind of like what
• 1:33:54
  is this like am I
• 1:33:55
  looking into a portal am I looking into a window I think I have
• 1:33:59
  a much harder time
• 1:34:00
  looking at painting from before like this period like I don't
• 1:34:05
  I'm not really
• 1:34:06
  interested in painting from before like 1830s maybe at the
• 1:34:11
  earliest and I think
• 1:34:13
  that's in part because like part of my fascination with
• 1:34:17
  painting is like how things
• 1:34:19
  seeing how images are constructed and that's like very like it
• 1:34:23
  was only last summer
• 1:34:24
  that i was able to like when i was in vienna i would go to the
• 1:34:27
  kunsthistorisch
• 1:34:28
  museum and like i could i could sort of start to tell the
• 1:34:31
  difference of like what
• 1:34:32
  people are talking about and it's like oh well titian versus
• 1:34:35
  you know like
• 1:34:36
  rembrandt or not remember caravaggio and like the difference
• 1:34:40
  between kind of like
• 1:34:41
  SPEAKER_01: italian and northern european art like
• 1:34:43
  SPEAKER_01: These things that are,
• 1:34:44
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:34:45
  SPEAKER_01: I knew were,
• 1:34:45
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:34:45
  SPEAKER_01: conversations about,
• 1:34:46
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:34:47
  SPEAKER_01: the old masters that I'd never really been able to,
• 1:34:50
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:34:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just,
• 1:34:51
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:34:51
  SPEAKER_01: it all kind of looks the same to me.
• 1:34:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 1:34:53
  SPEAKER_01: But then I,
• 1:34:54
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:34:54
  SPEAKER_01: last summer I saw it for the first time,
• 1:34:57
  SPEAKER_01: but it was,
• 1:34:57
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:34:57
  SPEAKER_01: took that long for me to be able to kind of get over the initial,
• 1:35:00
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:35:00
  SPEAKER_01: gloss of the way,
• 1:35:02
  SPEAKER_01: the style of painting to,
• 1:35:03
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:35:04
  SPEAKER_01: see the difference between certain things.
• 1:35:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 1:35:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:35:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's so much talk in the 19th century about,
• 1:35:10
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:35:10
  SPEAKER_02: what photography is and,
• 1:35:11
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:35:11
  SPEAKER_02: the kind of,
• 1:35:12
  SPEAKER_02: the...
• 1:35:14
  the craziness of being able to capture a moment on film but I'm
• 1:35:17
  like I think
• 1:35:18
  SPEAKER_02: painting is like way scarier.
• 1:35:20
  Well also like these conversations about like idealism and like
• 1:35:24
  pornography and how
• 1:35:26
  if something's not idealized then it's pornographic are also
• 1:35:28
  happening at a time
• 1:35:29
  where pornographic photos are being like sought out by the
• 1:35:37
  police and like they're
• 1:35:38
  SPEAKER_01: being destroyed there are all these raids and
• 1:35:41
  photograph is the complete opposite of idealized because you
• 1:35:44
  can't idealize a
• 1:35:45
  figure in a photograph it necessarily is a representation of
• 1:35:47
  one individual in a
• 1:35:48
  certain moment well I guess if that's your definition of what
• 1:35:53
  it means to be
• 1:35:54
  idealized to be like abstracted versus specific but I still
• 1:35:57
  think like what happens
• 1:35:58
  with photography and the self is that anyone can then become
• 1:36:01
  like the subject of a
• 1:36:04
  portrait in a new way and so like you get to be a fantasy
• 1:36:07
  version of yourself which
• 1:36:09
  SPEAKER_01: is idealized in a way
• 1:36:10
  That's idealized,
• 1:36:11
  but it's not,
• 1:36:11
  like,
• 1:36:12
  I guess,
• 1:36:12
  like,
• 1:36:12
  conventionalized or something.
• 1:36:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 1:36:14
  SPEAKER_01: the point of an academic nude is that you can't,
• 1:36:17
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:36:18
  SPEAKER_01: it's not an individual,
• 1:36:19
  SPEAKER_01: it's a concept.
• 1:36:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:36:21
  SPEAKER_01: And in photography,
• 1:36:22
  SPEAKER_01: what you're doing is putting your individual self into a convention,
• 1:36:28
  SPEAKER_01: but you can never escape the individuality.
• 1:36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:36:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 1:36:32
  SPEAKER_02: and it's,
• 1:36:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:36:32
  SPEAKER_02: the other thing about,
• 1:36:33
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:36:33
  SPEAKER_02: the French Academy,
• 1:36:34
  SPEAKER_02: too,
• 1:36:34
  SPEAKER_02: is that there's gender rules.
• 1:36:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, like,
• 1:36:38
  SPEAKER_02: And there were women painters,
• 1:36:40
  SPEAKER_02: but you couldn't really become...
• 1:36:42
  SPEAKER_02: You couldn't join the Academy as a woman.
• 1:36:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you couldn't be an official painter.
• 1:36:45
  And that's like the Linda Nochlin argument about why there are
• 1:36:48
  no great women
• 1:36:48
  SPEAKER_02: artists is because they weren't allowed to go into the spaces.
• 1:36:51
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of that was about who was allowed to paint a nude.
• 1:36:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think women weren't allowed to paint nude men.
• 1:36:56
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 1:36:57
  SPEAKER_02: And...
• 1:36:58
  so this like relationship with the body that like you have to
• 1:37:01
  once you're only
• 1:37:02
  allowed into the secret club if you're allowed to like abstract
• 1:37:05
  and idealize a
• 1:37:06
  human figure yeah and otherwise like you're like Rosa Bonheur
• 1:37:09
  and you're painting
• 1:37:10
  animals like you're stuck in the material you know it was an
• 1:37:13
  interesting thing that
• 1:37:13
  I learned that's sort of like half related is that in the 18th
• 1:37:16
  century so the like
• 1:37:19
  Victorine Marat for example it's like the association in the
• 1:37:22
  19th century of being
• 1:37:23
  an artist model is like Demi Mondain it's like you're a
• 1:37:26
  prostitute basically
• 1:37:28
  even if you're not,
• 1:37:29
  that's just,
• 1:37:30
  like,
• 1:37:31
  that's who would be an artist model.
• 1:37:33
  SPEAKER_01: In the 18th century,
• 1:37:35
  SPEAKER_01: it was more male models than female models,
• 1:37:38
  and they were so well regarded that they had special apartments
• 1:37:41
  in the Louvre,
• 1:37:42
  SPEAKER_01: and they had special,
• 1:37:43
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:37:44
  SPEAKER_01: royal clothes that they got to wear,
• 1:37:47
  SPEAKER_01: because they were,
• 1:37:47
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:37:47
  SPEAKER_01: modeling.
• 1:37:48
  SPEAKER_01: The sexiest men.
• 1:37:49
  SPEAKER_01: They were the sexiest men.
• 1:37:50
  SPEAKER_01: They were modeling for these,
• 1:37:53
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:37:53
  SPEAKER_01: historic,
• 1:37:54
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:37:54
  SPEAKER_01: history paintings,
• 1:37:55
  SPEAKER_01: these,
• 1:37:55
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:37:55
  SPEAKER_01: epic paintings,
• 1:37:56
  SPEAKER_01: and so they were,
• 1:37:57
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:37:58
  movie stars or something yeah well all of the like the big
• 1:38:02
  crowds to see the salon
• 1:38:03
  or something it's like reminding me like that was the big movie
• 1:38:05
  of the day like
• 1:38:06
  that was like the iron man of the summer of 1865 you know yeah
• 1:38:11
  and people would
• 1:38:11
  like go and like hit paintings even like with sticks yeah i
• 1:38:15
  mean i just also like
• 1:38:17
  you know people complain about like the crowds to see the mona
• 1:38:19
  lisa at the louvre
• 1:38:20
  and i'm like i actually think it's good for society but still
• 1:38:24
  well it's it's
• 1:38:24
  SPEAKER_02: actually it's not the crowds it's the
• 1:38:28
  selfie sticks yeah yeah but i mean even if there were no selfie
• 1:38:32
  sticks i think it
• 1:38:33
  would still be pretty hard to see yeah and i like being part of
• 1:38:36
  the mass sometimes
• 1:38:38
  you also don't have to go see them only so when you're at the
• 1:38:40
  live you could just
• 1:38:41
  skip it yeah i think it's kind of a b-list painting it's like
• 1:38:45
  not that good it's
• 1:38:45
  very small and you know what they say the painting um do you
• 1:38:50
  have anything else to
• 1:38:53
  SPEAKER_02: tell me
• 1:38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 1:38:54
  SPEAKER_01: so the other thing that I was going to talk about,
• 1:38:56
  SPEAKER_01: but we're now at like four hours and 55 minutes,
• 1:38:59
  is that in my kind of like grand argument about buying and
• 1:39:04
  selling of flesh,
• 1:39:04
  SPEAKER_01: the other thing that happens in 1865 is the best book ever written,
• 1:39:07
  SPEAKER_01: Our Mutual Friend is published.
• 1:39:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that book is a lot about like flow,
• 1:39:15
  SPEAKER_01: like the river,
• 1:39:16
  SPEAKER_01: the Thames is like the crucial kind of site of that book.
• 1:39:19
  And it's also about like buying and selling flesh in all of
• 1:39:22
  these weird ways.
• 1:39:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like
• 1:39:24
  There's a doll's dressmaker who's obviously dealing in like
• 1:39:28
  kind of the posturing
• 1:39:30
  SPEAKER_01: and figure,
• 1:39:31
  SPEAKER_01: but then also like setting someone up as a doll in the 19th century,
• 1:39:34
  which is like something that's joked about in the book is like
• 1:39:37
  making a mistress of
• 1:39:38
  SPEAKER_01: someone,
• 1:39:38
  SPEAKER_01: like making a prostitute of someone.
• 1:39:40
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a character who is kind of like at risk of falling that way.
• 1:39:45
  SPEAKER_02: When you said that, is the automaton woman in the Sandman named Olympia?
• 1:39:50
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, probably.
• 1:39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she is.
• 1:39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:39:55
  like that was earlier yeah i wonder if that's why olympia
• 1:40:00
  becomes a common name for
• 1:40:03
  prostitutes actually what we're talking about is the amazing
• 1:40:06
  story written by the
• 1:40:07
  guy who also wrote the nutcracker that like inspired the
• 1:40:10
  nutcracker yeah i think so
• 1:40:13
  and like it inspired freud's uncanny yeah and it's about a guy
• 1:40:16
  who falls in love
• 1:40:17
  with a woman who turns out to be an automaton and i think her
• 1:40:20
  name is olympia and
• 1:40:21
  SPEAKER_02: like
• 1:40:22
  It's all related to his childhood trauma of having heard this
• 1:40:25
  scary story about the
• 1:40:26
  SPEAKER_02: Sandman who takes your eyes out or something.
• 1:40:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then it's all about his romantic attachment to this lifeless woman.
• 1:40:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:40:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, but in Our Mutual Friends,
• 1:40:36
  SPEAKER_01: there's also a character.
• 1:40:38
  SPEAKER_01: My favorite character is a guy who is an amputee.
• 1:40:41
  SPEAKER_01: He's missing a leg.
• 1:40:42
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a man named Mr. Venus, who's a taxidermist who has his leg.
• 1:40:47
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like trying to save up enough money to buy it back essentially.
• 1:40:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my God.
• 1:40:51
  And he's like doing all this kind of like shady dealing to make
• 1:40:54
  sure that he gets
• 1:40:56
  SPEAKER_01: enough money at the end to buy back his own flesh.
• 1:40:59
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus Christ.
• 1:41:00
  Well that back to Lauren Greenfield in the queen of Versailles,
• 1:41:04
  a sign of the,
• 1:41:05
  um,
• 1:41:06
  SPEAKER_02: the family's wealth, like they're building the biggest house in America.
• 1:41:09
  Like one of the ways in which their wealth is extravagant and
• 1:41:12
  insane is that every
• 1:41:13
  SPEAKER_02: time they have,
• 1:41:14
  SPEAKER_02: they have like 15 dogs and they're all this like big fluffy white dog.
• 1:41:16
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what it's called.
• 1:41:18
  SPEAKER_02: And when they die, they stuff them.
• 1:41:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so around the house, there's not only 15 living dogs.
• 1:41:23
  SPEAKER_02: There's also stuffed dogs in class cages.
• 1:41:25
  SPEAKER_01: That is disgusting.
• 1:41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's like Barbara Streisand cloning her dog or cat or whatever.
• 1:41:32
  SPEAKER_01: Cloning is a bit different than stuffing.
• 1:41:36
  yeah well i think like no one wants to be around particularly
• 1:41:40
  macabre no one wants
• 1:41:41
  to be around you shouldn't like i always joked when i was a kid
• 1:41:44
  like my beloved
• 1:41:45
  childhood cat martha i was like dad can we please get her stuff
• 1:41:47
  when um she dies
• 1:41:49
  but like when she died she was like four pounds like skeletal
• 1:41:52
  scary like no fur
• 1:41:54
  SPEAKER_02: like you don't to
• 1:41:56
  SPEAKER_01: freeze someone in their worst moment.
• 1:41:58
  I was just looking for Fran because the other day I did make a
• 1:42:01
  joke when she was
• 1:42:01
  SPEAKER_01: like being really cute and lying down.
• 1:42:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, let's cut her open and fill her with cotton.
• 1:42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Just as a joke.
• 1:42:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hilarious.
• 1:42:09
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it was sweet,
• 1:42:11
  SPEAKER_01: but it's like,
• 1:42:13
  SPEAKER_01: can you imagine if I just forever had like a version of her just sleeping
• 1:42:17
  SPEAKER_01: somewhere?
• 1:42:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's so disgusting.
• 1:42:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny.
• 1:42:20
  Like when we went to Paris to do this book fair and I had made
• 1:42:23
  Madeline bring this
• 1:42:23
  SPEAKER_02: beautiful vintage quilt she has.
• 1:42:26
  SPEAKER_02: to lay on our table,
• 1:42:27
  SPEAKER_02: and she opens it up in Paris,
• 1:42:29
  SPEAKER_02: thousands and thousands of miles away from the dog.
• 1:42:31
  Like,
• 1:42:32
  the dog bursts out of it in the form of fur,
• 1:42:35
  and I was like,
• 1:42:35
  wherever we go,
• 1:42:36
  there we are.
• 1:42:37
  SPEAKER_02: Fran will never leave me.
• 1:42:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like, I think Fran's fur will be here until the end of time.
• 1:42:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think so, too.
• 1:42:45
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for this.
• 1:42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:42:48
  SPEAKER_00: Bye, love you.
• 1:42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.
• 1:42:54
  SPEAKER_03: Hello?
• 1:42:55
  SPEAKER_03: You've reached 1-800-1800.
• 1:42:55
  SPEAKER_00: 1-800-1800.
• 1:42:55
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• 1:42:57
  SPEAKER_03: 1-800-1800.
• 1:42:58
  1-800-1800.
• 1:42:58
  SPEAKER_03: 1-800-1800.
• 1:42:59
  SPEAKER_03: I have a burning question.