Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 867: Jim Zumbo - An Outdoor Legend at 85

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Ep. 867: Jim Zumbo - An Outdoor Legend at 85 · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: This is the me Eater podcast, coming at you shirtless, severely,
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• 0:38
  Speaker 1: T E dot com.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: My god, are we Luckey.
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  Speaker 1: We're joined today in the eighty fifth year of his life,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: very well, lived.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Better than outdoor writer Bi I'll just and TV host Jim.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: Zumbo, Thank you, sir. Delighted to be here.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Multi decade tenure at Outdoor Life Magine has showed Jim
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Zumbo outdoors on the Outdoor Channel. Know him for big
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: game hunting, known for cooking, known for being a great guy.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Has written by his own estimation, he tried to count
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  Speaker 1: this up one day. Two thousand and five hundred magazine
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: articles and twenty one books. Jim, thanks for coming on
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: the show.
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: Thank you, donk Just. It's a pleasure to be here.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: I want to go back.
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  Speaker 1: I want to go back in time and talk about
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: how your career and how you came to do what
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  Speaker 1: you want to do. But I'm too dying to talk
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: about something else first. So the first thing I want
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: to talk about is an article you wrote and a
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  Speaker 1: man you talked to, and we were talking about this
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  Speaker 1: before we started recording. Is I'm just going to refresh
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: viewers on the story if they haven't heard it. The
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: last known grizzly bear in Colorado, the last documented grizzly
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  Speaker 1: bear in Colorado was killed by an archer in seventy nine.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy Nineptember. Okay, there's an old female. The
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: archer claimed that he was out hunting out in the
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: San Juan Mountains in Colorado. The archer claimed that he
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: was attacked by the grizzly and he killed it. Now,
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  Speaker 1: for many years prior, no one had seen a grizzly
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  Speaker 1: at all in Colorado. They were hiding, just very few
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  Speaker 1: of them, so most people assumed they were gone. After
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  Speaker 1: that grizzly was killed, people launched a monstrous search.
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  Speaker 2: That's not the right word. Monstrous. Yeah, he musket that's good, Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: A mondo search all through the San Juans, trying to
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  Speaker 1: establish that there was a population there never to find one.
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  Speaker 2: This story is.
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  Speaker 1: This story has a lot of twists and turns, and
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: there's some controversial elements to it.
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  Speaker 2: But tell us about I.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Until this morning, I didn't know that you spoke to
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  Speaker 1: that man in the hospital.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, tell the story.
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  Speaker 3: So I was I'd drawn out a desert sheep hunt
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  Speaker 3: in Utah, in southern Utah in seventy nine and one
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  Speaker 3: hundred for a week, and I was on my way
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  Speaker 3: home to get more gear, and I heard on the
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: radio that this guy had killed a grizzy bear with
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: a handheld arrow. And I was Western editor for Outer
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: Life at that time, so I thought, holy smokes with
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: a story. So I called my boss in New York
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  Speaker 3: and I told him. He says, get that story, forget
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  Speaker 3: your sheep hunt for now. So I drove to Alamosa, Colorado,
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: and got a motel and visited him in the hospital
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  Speaker 3: and spent probably five days. The nurses kept kicking me
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: out because he was really bad, and so I was
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: able to maybe spend twenty minutes or a half hour
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: a day with him. But I got the story.
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  Speaker 2: What were the injuries he had?
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  Speaker 3: Well, the bear had bitten through his left shoulder and
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: it had bitten through his right leg, made hamburger out
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  Speaker 3: of it, and he just sustained all kinds of wounds
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  Speaker 3: around his body. He was hunting with a with a
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  Speaker 3: He had a client, a farmer from Kansas, Mike, and
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: they had split up. Ed was outfitting. He's a bow hunter,
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  Speaker 3: so he had his bow and the other guy had
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  Speaker 3: a bow and they split up, and all of a sudden,
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  Speaker 3: this bear came charging at him and before he could
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  Speaker 3: do anything, was on top of him, knocked him over.
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  Speaker 3: Now Ed's a big guy. He could be a linebacker
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  Speaker 3: for an NFL team. He's big, burly guy. So the
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  Speaker 3: bears on top of him and chewing away and blood
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  Speaker 3: all over the place, and he knows he's gonna die.
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  Speaker 3: There's no way out unless the bear leaves. And he
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  Speaker 3: sees an arrow. He had his arrows in a quiver
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  Speaker 3: and he sees an arrow laying on the ground, and
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  Speaker 3: he got the arrow, and the bears on top of
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  Speaker 3: him and he kept jabbing him, and he hit the
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  Speaker 3: a order in his throat whatever that vein is, maybe
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  Speaker 3: juggling or whatever, and the bear started bleeding all over him,
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  Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, the bear walked walked away
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  Speaker 3: and flopped over and died. So in the meantime Ed's
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  Speaker 3: screaming and yelling and whatever. Mike the guy comes running
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  Speaker 3: over and he sees it, and he's in panic. Home.
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  Speaker 1: The guy that got mauled was the client or the guide.
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  Speaker 1: The guide. Yeah, So Mike the client come running over
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  Speaker 1: and he's Ed's covered.
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  Speaker 3: With blood, and he gets pretty upset obviously, and one
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: of the horses takes off because it's full of blood.
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  Speaker 3: They had two horses. So he tried to get up
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  Speaker 3: on a horse, and he kept passing out and he
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  Speaker 3: just it didn't work. So finally he got him on
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  Speaker 3: a horse and they headed toward They were way back
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: in the wilderness. I don't think the hunter Mike had
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  Speaker 3: ever been there before. They got to a big clearing
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: and where a helicopter could land, and Ed told Mike
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  Speaker 3: to get back to camp and bring some help and
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  Speaker 3: call a helicopter. I guess I had a satellite phone
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  Speaker 3: back in camp. So he told Mike how to get
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  Speaker 3: the camp. Mike had never been there before. There was
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: a trail, but it would have been six miles out
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  Speaker 3: of the way. He told him how to get right
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  Speaker 3: to camp. So before he left, Mike dragged a bunch
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  Speaker 3: of wood over to start a fire because in the
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  Speaker 3: mountains it's going to get cold at night. And Ed
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  Speaker 3: was just i mean covered with blood, hurt, and he
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  Speaker 3: thought he was going to die. Yeah, so he started
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  Speaker 3: a fire and he left went back to camp. His
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  Speaker 3: dad was a doctor and he had a medical kit.
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  Speaker 3: Somehow he finds camp in the dark by riding his
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  Speaker 3: horse across the mountains, comes back in the middle of
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  Speaker 3: the night and somehow his dad and a couple other
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  Speaker 3: guys they had gotten off the trail and his horse
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  Speaker 3: went over a cliff with the medical gear straight down
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  Speaker 3: and died. You're kidding me, No, No, I never heard
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: that parts that's what That's exactly what that what I
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  Speaker 3: wrote what Ed told me. So they finally got to
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  Speaker 3: Ed and got a helicopter and got him out and
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  Speaker 3: took him to the hospital in Alamosa. So that's basically
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  Speaker 3: what happened. Yeah, But like you said, there's been a
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: controversy because people just they didn't believe it and how
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: could this guy kill a bear with an arrow? You know, Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: today everything's a lot of it's fake news. So that's
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  Speaker 3: bs you know that that didn't happen. I don't.
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  Speaker 2: But I don't have a problem with this part.
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  Speaker 1: Well because this, I mean, there's a documented cases people
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  Speaker 1: killed him with twenty two's people killed.
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  Speaker 2: With knives, yeah, you know.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, but to have a bear actually rabbit or body
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  Speaker 3: and having the presence of mind to grab an arrow
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  Speaker 3: and just stab him, And like I said, it was
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  Speaker 3: a big he was a strong guy. Yeah, but I
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  Speaker 3: believe him because I was there. He didn't have time
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  Speaker 3: to think up any any lies. You know, he was
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  Speaker 3: laying in that bed. He was you know, he was
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: he was. He was loopy and stuff. And but I
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  Speaker 3: really admire that guy. And uh, he's since moved. He's
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  Speaker 3: living in the Midwest now. I think he's about ninety
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  Speaker 3: two years old. Really yep, wow, yep.
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  Speaker 2: Do you care what I think?
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  Speaker 3: Sure? Yeah, what do you think.
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  Speaker 1: I wasn't there. I never talked to the guy. I've
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  Speaker 1: been to the place where it happened. It just gets
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  Speaker 1: a little like, Okay, I want to paint a scenario
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  Speaker 1: for you that I that I use in situations like this,
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  Speaker 1: Like let's say there's an omniscient being, okay, God, an
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  Speaker 1: omniscient being who knows all the truth in the world.
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  Speaker 1: And he says to me, He says, is that the
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  Speaker 1: full story? Because he knows the truth, And he says
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  Speaker 1: to me, is that the full story. If you're right,
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  Speaker 1: you live. If you're wrong, you die. So I have
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  Speaker 1: to get it right. There's no being cute, Okay, there's
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  Speaker 1: no trying to make a point. It's just what you
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: got to make the best guess you can make. My
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  Speaker 1: guess is there's more to that story. First, I want
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: to throw in an interesting tibet and see if this
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  Speaker 1: is true. As you remember, wasn't it that part of
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  Speaker 1: the thing was that they could tell from that there
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  Speaker 1: was a female, and they could tell I don't know
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  Speaker 1: how they can tell, but when they did a knee cropsy,
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  Speaker 1: they could tell that she had bory young something about
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  Speaker 1: there's some signature on the reproductive system or another that
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  Speaker 1: would demonstrate that she had had cubs.
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  Speaker 3: And she was pretty old too, I think twelve years
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  Speaker 3: old or twenty years ago.
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  Speaker 1: The fact that she had had cubs is part of
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  Speaker 1: what brought about this big search that people got involved in,
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  Speaker 1: Okay to try to find others, because there's like she
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  Speaker 1: had have aught and she had so she was presumably
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  Speaker 1: at bread with a male. Where's the male? And she
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  Speaker 1: had bore cubs. Where are the cubs? But no one
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  Speaker 1: ever still remains today the last grizzly. I think some
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  Speaker 1: I think there's more in the story. I like, I
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  Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know if there's one, Like if
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  Speaker 1: there's one bear in the whole state, there's one bear
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  Speaker 1: in the san Juans and that bear, an old female,
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  Speaker 1: happens to the mall the guy unprovoked. To me, it's
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  Speaker 1: just more plausible that they that they try to get
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  Speaker 1: an arrow into it. Maybe they maybe, and it's excusable.
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  Speaker 1: Maybe the idea of there being a grizzly there was
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: totally out of their mind and they were like, oh,
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  Speaker 1: black bear, And I feel like they got a arrow
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  Speaker 1: into it.
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  Speaker 2: If I had to guess.
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  Speaker 1: Not knowing the gentleman, they got an arrow into it
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  Speaker 1: and that led to everything that follows.
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  Speaker 2: If I had to make a guess, what do you
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  Speaker 2: think about that?
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  Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know. I suppose anything is possible,
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  Speaker 3: but yeah, I don't know. Now they were hunting separately,
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  Speaker 3: he was hunting. Maybe they were just kind of still
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: hunting through the forest and then it Mike her Di
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: screaming and come running over.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I had no idea. You meant,
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: I had no idea you were on that story?
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: All right, now you're ready to back up? Now back
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: in time? Yeah, go even back deeper in time. How
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: did you like? Where did you grow up? And how
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: did it ever click with you to get into the
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: career you got into and to make a whole life
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  Speaker 1: out of, you know, hunting and writing about hunting, and
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: telling stories and sharing, you know, your life and profiling
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: other people's lives and capturing this whole culture for all
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: these decades.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: Where'd that come from?
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  Speaker 3: Well, when I was a kid, I was I was
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: born and raised in Newburgh, New York, which is sixteen
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  Speaker 3: miles north of New York City. It's in the Hudson Valley,
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: thirty thousand people. And I raised right in the city.
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  Speaker 3: And ever since I was a little kid, I just
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  Speaker 3: loved anything wild in the outdoors. I'd lay on the
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: sidewalk and feed crumbs to the ants. I'd feed spiders.
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: I had names for the spiders, you know. And I
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: always wanted to be a game order or a forest ranger.
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: And at one point I thought I might like to
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: be a writer. Well, in high school I had an
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: English teacher named Miss Fink, and I love to read.
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: When I was a kid, I read books like Amic
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: the Beaver and Tarka the Otter and all sorts of stuff.
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: You know those books. They're old you look them up. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: I was a teenager when I read them. It's a
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: long time ago. But she read one of my compositions,
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: said you ought to be a writer, so I didn't.
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: I didn't pay much attention to that because I wasn't
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: a great student. During lunchtime might be trapping and I
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: was behind high school. We had raccoon sets out and stuff,
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: bossoms and stupid stuff muskrats.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: What do you mean stupid stuff? You mean Granner's possums.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: I'm not stupid about a possum.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: But anyway. I went to a little school in northern
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: New York called Paul Smiths way up on the around
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: extent of the Canadian borders. A forestry pool and Liberal
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: arts and hotel management. There were four hundred students.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: And hotel management. Liberal for forestry.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, there were two forestry courses and one it was terminal,
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  Speaker 3: the other one pre professional. The pre professional course got
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: you basically started for your bachelors. We had to transfer
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: to the university. I didn't take that one. I took
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: the terminal course. We had casts classes like sawmilling and dynamiting,
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: and and we had a sugar bush. We had a
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: sugar mill. Oh really, yeah, back in the now they
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: use tubes to get sugar syrup. And that those days.
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: You drive us spaggan in a maple tree in March
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: colder than hell, three foot of snow, and put to
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: hang a bucket on it. We go through the woods
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: with a horse drawn sleigh with a big vat. We
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: take those buckets and then we put the sap in
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: the sugar house, and somebody had to keep throwing wood
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: in the stove and it had to be so many degrees. Anyway,
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: that was one of the courses.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: So what that did.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: I gotta tell you something that you that Okay, when
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: we were when we were little kids, we didn't know
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: We just knew it was maples. We didn't know sugar maples. Yeah,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: and we had like a lot of the wrong maples.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: We ran around.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: We would just drill holes in those maples and.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: Then like take a peanut butter tub or something and
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: try to nestle it up under that wall, tape it
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: to the tree, you know, and we're always looking at
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: it like what gibbs Man never got shiging.
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: One interesting thing about the sap from the tree. If
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: it's if it's two percent or better, it's fantastic. In
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: other words, you get two gallons of syrup from one
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: hundred gallons of sap centers like impossible. Almost anyway, that
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: was one of the courses. So that prepared me to
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: be a woods boss or working a pulp mill or whatever.
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: And I had a good buddy who was He taught
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: me how to trap. He was always two years ahead
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: of me in school, and he went out to Utah.
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: So he said, hey, you got to come out here
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: and get your degree. He says, you want to, you know,
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: if you want to be a game war and you
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: got to have a damn degree. So I went to
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: in Utah State up in Logan. So I went there
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: and got my bachelor's. I got a back up. I'm sorry.
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: When I was at Paul Smiths. You know, in a
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: lot of these little communities, hunting communities, guys would say, oh,
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: there's a big old buck out there, and there was
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: a great, big whitetail that everybody called old Joe Sure,
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: and he was supposed to be this monster, maybe a
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: mythical buck, I don't know. So one day I'm crawling
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: around a cedar swamp spagna moss and I got my
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: thirty thirty Model ninety four car being, you know, and
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: I'm squeezing between a couple of trees and that out
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: jumps this huge buck and all I could do was
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: just look at him because I couldn't even move. So
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: I got a while here and I wrote a story
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: about it for the for the college paper, and they
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: printed it, and I thought, holy smokes, you know that's
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: I was just so impressed to see that, that stupid
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: story and that little stupid paper. When I went out
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: to Utah State, I lived with a bunch of foresters
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: and one of the guys worked on the on the
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: paper called Student of Life, and he said, why don't
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: you do a deer game forecast? I said, okay, So
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: I didn't tell me again, what a dear big game
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: forecast deer elk forecast for the upcoming season. So I did,
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: and then he says, the editor wants you to see
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: you want to write a column and I said, yeah,
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't mind trying that. Now. I never took any
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: journalism courses or anything, and I wish I did. But
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: I wrote the column. And one night, a bunch of
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: Forresters and a couple of professors we went up the canyon.
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: It was a cabin up there, and we had a
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: bathtub full of beer and we were a bs and
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: we were cooking hot dogs and hamburgers. And this professor
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: comes over. He says, Mbowie thinks you think you're a
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: hot shit. He said, you write that stupid column in
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: that paper. I'll bet you a case of Lucky Lager
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: beer that you can't sell a real story to a
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: real magazine. So, you know, we were all kind of
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: half buzzed, and I said, I'll take you up on that.
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: So there's a lake called Bear Lake on the Utah
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: Idaho border, and there's a Bonnaville cisco that is endemic
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: only to that lake, and they only spawn in January
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: and it's colder than hell twenty thirty blow zero. They
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: blond close to the shore. So you go out there
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: with nets and it's a galla event.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: That lake has an endemic cisco.
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: Yes, sir, they say, this is the last lake in
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: the Bonneville Ocean that still anyways deeper than heck, turquoise,
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: beautiful water. So Liya's club was out there selling hot
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: chocolate and coffee and hot dogs and people, just a
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: lot of people. Anyway, I wrote a story about that,
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: and I'll be doing if Outer Life didn't buy it,
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: Watch money three hundred and fifty bucks in those days,
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: holy smokes.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: I just got married with living in the student housing,
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: you know, and broker in hell and so that that
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: kind of started all and then I started freelancing. In
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: the next three stories I sent to Alter Life rejected,
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: I wrote one on rock chow hunting, and the editor
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: Bill Ray says, that's a massacre zumbo. He says, I
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: can't use that story. But this guy, Bill Ray, of
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: all the editors Sports and Field, outer Life and Field
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: and Stream, we're all in New York City, right down
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: in Manhattan.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Sure, and they were still running those places out when
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: I started writing. They were still running those places out
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: of New York. You'd be on the phone and are
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: talking to people in New York.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Ultra Life was on Madison Alia, which was advertisers
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: were Sports and Field was there. And but at any rate,
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: Bill Ray was the kind of guy that he would
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: he would encourage a writer even if he had got
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: and rejects. You know a lot of editors were just
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: you know, we don't want your stuff anymore. But he
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: was really a fantastic guy. I could probably tell you
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: ten guys my age, or least most of them passed
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: on that got a start from Bill Ray. But anyway,
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: that's how it started.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: So he rejected three at least. Well, do you remember
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: what else he rejected?
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: No?
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: Do you remember what the next one was that he
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: been on?
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: Yes? I worked at West Point for eight years as
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: a wildlife biologist in a post forester or and a
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: game board. And a buddy of mine had developed a
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: tip up with a battery on it and a light.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember those well.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: He he said, Hey, let's go out fishing at night
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: for walleyes. And it's late. So we built a big
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: fire and had a little whiskey, you know, and the
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: light go out we went out there. So I wrote
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: a story called the Fisher Lighting. So send it to
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: Paul Smith. Paul Smith, I said, at the Outdoor Life,
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: and they bought it. I thought holy smokes. Wow. The
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: next one was called Beacon in the Forest, where when
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: I'm out there in the woods, I realized that in
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: the fall, the first trees that turn yellow were hickorys,
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: and squirrels love hickorys. So I'd spot a yellow tree
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: and I'd go there and I'd sit and by, Oh,
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: here's here's the squirrels all over, and then they work
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: on the oaks or whatever else.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So I wrote a story called Beacon in the
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: Forest about Hickory's. Beacon in the forest, about Hickory's.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: They bought me about that one.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: Back when you were selling those articles in the early days,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: were they paying you on were they doing a word count?
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: Paying you on a word count?
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: No, just a flat fee, flat fee. Yeah. Yeah. But
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: then I worked for the government, uh fifteen years. I
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: worked for the State of Utah Forestry and Fire Control
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: for two years, and then I worked at West Point
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: for eight years. Then I came back to Utah. I
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: worked as a wildlife biolence for the BLM, and I
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: got a call one day from Don Cosey, who was
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: executive editor, and he says, we'd like you to work
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: for us as Western editor. I said, what does that mean? Well,
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: he says, you'll run the Yellow Pages, the only Yellow Pages,
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: and work with all these stringers in all the states
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: and send us seven hundred and twenty lines of clean copy,
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: plus maps and photos. And that's your job. I said, God,
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: I can't do that. Well, I'm working for the government,
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: can I? He says, Hell no, I says, you mean
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: I gotta come to work for Outer Life full time?
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: He said, yep. So I talk. Took about five minutes
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: to take it over, and I accepted the job for
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: a huge cut and pay, no cutting pay. Yeah, yeah,
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: I had. I was making eighteen thousand bucks with the government,
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: with all the perks, health benefits you know, and all
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: that stuff and pension. Went to work for outer Life
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: for nine thousand dollars in a handshake.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: No kidding. Yeah, were you were married at that point?
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah? How long were you married for?
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: I was married to my first wife, lost for twenty
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: six years, and Madonna for thirty two. So yeah, we're
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: still fighting with each other, dude, that's.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: A mark of fidelogy.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: You hit like my old man managed to pull that
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: off to hit like, what's that called a silver anniversary?
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah? With two different women. Yeah, but my wife, she's loyal.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: She's kind of like you could look at it two
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: different ways. You look like amazingly loyal, yeah or yeah
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: or not. Yeah, but she puts up with all my absences.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: I don't travel much anymore, but there were times when
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: I was on the road for probably two hundred and
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: seventy two and eighty days. Now that included also shows.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: I did a lot of seminars.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: In fact, that's where I met her. She was running
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: the ISIC shows in the Sportsman's Exposed on the West Coast.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: But yeah, there were times when I'd take off and
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: be gone for thirty forty days. Then I got the
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: TV show, and between the TV showing out Door Life,
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: I mean it was just constant. I would go on
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: maybe four hunts in a row. I'd go up the BC.
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: I love to go up to the northern BC for elk,
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: and then I Montana typically in Wyoming or Colorado and
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: whatever else. Antelope mil there, yeah, Moose. I loved the
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: hunt moose black bears. So I mean it was just
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: NonStop because he had to you know, I had to
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: write a column a month for Outdoor Life. When I
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: became Honting editor for first when I was Western editor,
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: then they did away with the Yellow Pages. Then they
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: made me editor at large that then I just remember that. Yeah,
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: and then I became Honting editor, and you got to
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: have so much copy, you know, and you got to
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: travel obviously. So that's kind of where it's.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: At when you were on the mast head or not
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: on the mass but you were staffed Outdoor Life, but
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: you would do seminars and do TV and stuff. Was
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: that all in on salary or was that more like
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: like a la carte approach where where you would get
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: like additional money to do these different projects.
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was on a seminar. I had a contract
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: with an International sportss XPO, and I did shows in
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: like six cities on the West coast in Denver. But
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: you kept that money, Yeah, and they'd pay me a
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: fee for that, okay.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: And that didn't conflict with your your normal.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: Gig, No, uh did I. The only conflict was Outdoor
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: Life didn't want me working for the competition. They didn't
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: want they didn't want me in the field and Streamer
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: Sports a Field American Hunter nraa magazine. They didn't care
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: about that, you know. Because that was a different deal.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: But so yeah, it was I was. It was crazy.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: It was a crazy time, you know that.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: That's a I think I think about that long era,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: like just the years of your career outdoor life, field
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: and stream sports, the field, there was so many more
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: shared like there were so many more shared now national
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: experiences back then, do you know, like like I'm old
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: enough that when I was a little kid, I mean
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: there's channels three on a TV.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: There's channel three, eight and thirteen.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Right, it was like NBCCBS, ABC or whatever it help was, and.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: That was what it was.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Right, we still have like we still kind of retained
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: a shared experience of.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: The super Bowl or something.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: But there used to be like many many shared experiences
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: that people would have, and I think some of those
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: were just these magazines because pre internet, you know, if
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: you were a hunter and angler, you were looking at
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: those magazines.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: I think of going to my.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Maternal grandfather was a musky fisherman and big fishermen.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: He liked to hunt.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: You know, you'd go to his house and he would
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: have the magazines, I mean, and I would like go
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: home and bring them with and it was just that
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: that all it was sort of like all eyes in
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: the outdoor world were on those things, right, you know.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: And in that way, I grew up just like I
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: just grew up with your name, you know what I mean.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: I grew up reading your stuff. I was reading your
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: stuff as a as a child at my grandfather's house.
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: Smokes, you know, but just.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Being being Yeah I'm not young anymore, man, but like
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: being there and dreaming about hunting the West and stuff
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: and that, you know, and your stuff was there. Yeah,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: and things are so diffuse now, Yeah, it is.
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: Very much so. You got all kinds of stuff, all
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: your shows everywhere, thankfully.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it gets out there. Yeah, hey, tell me about firewood.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: You're big into firewood.
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: I suffer from an illness called ACFD, Excessive Compulsive firewood disorder.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Let me hit you with one? Can I hit you
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: with one?
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: My brother Danny recently got himself this might be a
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: good book subject for you. He recently got himself a
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: book about firewood.
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: It's from the it's from the might be out of
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: Norway or something.
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: I might have that book, honestly, Okay, go ahead, Well.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, yeah, I need to get me a copy.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: He's got a book.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: It's just a book about firewood, and there's a thing
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: in there that I didn't that I wasn't aware of.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: I want to run this by you. It's like, you
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: know where.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: Always talk about this wood has puts off this BTUs.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: This wood puts off that BTUs. This wood puts off
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: that BTUs. This book is saying that all wood is
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: the same by weight, but not by volume, like would
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: regard if you if you don't measure it by volume
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: and measure it by weight, it all puts off the
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: same BTUs. It's just a matter of efficiency in releasing
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: those BTUs because a denser like denser would we think
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: of as being hotter, but wood by weight has the
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: same be To you, I'll be dark.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: What do you think about that?
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: We'll put that in if you make a wood book,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: you got to either make that that's true or not true.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: I don't know what to make out of that, you
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, but like yeah, yeah, yeah, because
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you, dude, I grew up in the hardwoods
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: in Michigan.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: A nice to sell.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Like when I was selling firewood, we would get you
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: get ninety a cord for dried hardwood. You could hold
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: it till like February January February and get one hundred
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: and ten a cord for dried hardwood.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: I would cut it and.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Make just huge mountains of it and then deliver it
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: when the prices were good. Only maple and oak some
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: beach thrown in. At that time, you could sell white pine.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: So if you could get a ninety bucks for a
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: cord of cut and split hardwood, a quart of white
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: pine was thirty five dollars. People would talk where I
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: grew up. They would tell you that you can't heat
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: with pine. They would say that it'll burn your house down,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: because the I.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: Mean it was like, you can't.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: You could you go anywhere in that air You never
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: find a person carry a piece of pine in their
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: house and burn it. But then you move out west
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: and that's all there is, right, everybody burns pine. Yeah,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: So for decades I've been burning that junk. But then
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: I go back to my mom's and we go down
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: on the beach on the lake in front of the
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: house there, and I make a big old pile of
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: oak and get that burning.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: Dude, you can't you can't even get near that fire.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: So it's like, that's that's a wood right there, dude,
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: that's a hot wood, you know. So in reading that,
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: it kind of threw me off that it's like, you
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: know that it's just they're talking about by volume.
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: Right. Well, I've always I've always considered that I've looked
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: at the BTU charge for both native woods in the
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: US and all woods, and most of the charts would
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: tell you that O sage orange also called bodock or
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: hedge number one, btu's number one. And they say it'll
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: burn your great and it damn near will. I like
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: to get wood from all over. I got somebodies from
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: North Dakota who'd come on Antelope with me, and they
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: wearing a bunch of oak from the yards, you know.
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: And I went to Kansas to a writer's conference and
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: Mike Pierce was a good friend of mine. He used
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: to be the outdoor writer for the Wall Street Journal.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: And I said, the journal writer, Yeah, Michael Pierce. So
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: I said, Mike, if I bring my chance, however, can
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: I cut some hedge? He said, yeah, there's all kinds
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: of hedge around here. So, as it turned out, he
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: had a buddy who had a whole barn full full
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: of hedge. He said, back your truck up and loaded up.
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: So I took it home and I only burned it
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: when it's really cold, but it burns hot and it
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: burned long. And but Locus is another one that's got
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: a lot of bt you so I don't know. You know,
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: we live in northern Rockies as you do. And the
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: only two soft was we have or aspen and cottonwood.
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: Otherwise doug fur number one limber pine white bark pine,
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: which is now endangered. You can't cut that, dude.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: I never met anybody to cut it split into a
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: piece of white bark pine.
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: But this this O sage aren't just so hard that
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: you can't You can't cut a you can't drive a
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: nail in it. And they call it hedge because in
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: the old days the pioneers would plant it and it
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: would grow into into a row of really thick foliage
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: and the cattle couldn't get through it. But it's just
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: amazing stuff.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Anyway, Well guys run that for I mean, the industry
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: there is cutting fence.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Posts out of that stuff.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So how does your if you got a
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: like a O C D around wood, how does that
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: man fast like what like, how do you what are
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: the symptoms?
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: The symptoms? Go cut more wood?
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: You just like keep a good stash laid by.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: I once honestly had I swear I measured it one
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: hundred firewood cords. No firewood cord, not a full cord
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: four four by eight. I'm talking two by four by eight,
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: four hundred cords.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Oh I did, No, no, no, But I'm not getting
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: what in the world you're talking about.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: We've been having this debate lately. Are you forget the
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: term rick?
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: Yes?
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: Okay, what what do you what is a rick? In
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: your mind?
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: The wreck is a full cord four by four by
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: eight and twenty eight cubic feet.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: No, a rick is a face cord?
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: It is? Okay, should I google it?
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: I think you're right.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: But what you're talking about? What? What kind of what
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: a firewood cord twenty four inch deep? Yeah, so that's
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: a long cut piece of firewood.
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's if you look it up, it says
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: two by four eight firewood or face court.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but who's who's oven door? Are you fitting twenty
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: four inch pieces of firewood.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: Through my fireplace? Goes separates a big stone wall on
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: both sides and it goes all the way throughly. You
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: can open the doors on both rooms, and that thing's
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: got a three by four foot box, so I can
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: actually put a almost a thirty inch log in there. Yeah,
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: but you're right, you know, most of those aren't going
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: to take that twenty four inches.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: I'd like that. You know.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: I'm not a big government guy generally, well in some
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: areas i am. But I would like the government to
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: come in and really put some enforcement and some structure
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: around firewood measurements.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: I think it would do the nation good.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, because there's a lot of like people
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: saying a lot of weird things.
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there are.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Heart this guy Spencer New Heart that hosts trivia and
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: I actually it's a long story. We got a big
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: fight about this very subject, bricks and face cords and
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: chords and all that.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: So you caught too much wood? Do you sell it?
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: No? I used to you just like to keep it
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: because of the legalisation.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: We got all kinds of wood.
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: We use it. That fireplace does not go out from
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: usually October until April, unless it's like this winter, you know,
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: held seventy degrees in January and February. We didn't burn it.
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: But my wife will say, what's going on. There's no
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: fire going there's un by. Your fire sucks because it's
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: you know, because it's there's no flame. Okay, I'm throwing
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: a log in it. But we burned that. We probably
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: burned ten to fifteen twenty cords a year, seriously. And wow,
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: but I get it from everywhere. Beetlekill. We had a
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: big beetle kill infestation. I lived just maybe a quarter
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: mile from the National Forest. This is shoney forest, huh.
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: And as soon as those trees are go, and I'd
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: get a four serves pervent it for seven bucks or
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: whatever and bring that wood home and.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: That's your exercise. Yeah, but you had a heart attack
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: right cutting wood.
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: I had a heart attack when I was rolling the log. Yeah.
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: I was rolling the log with a peev. It was
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: a big ass log and it was a rock behind it,
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: and I put everything I had behind it, as you know,
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: a pev. You can roll a five hundred pound log
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: with that extra And I felt the pain in my
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: chest and I said, hmm, what was that all about?
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: Huh?
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: And I thought maybe I strained a muscle, you know,
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: and my chest. So I had all a wood cut
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: to throw in my truck, and I just said, I'm
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: going to leave this wood, sit, put the chainsaw on
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: my truck and go home. And if I don't have this,
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: and I'm gonna when I get to the highway, I'm
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: going to call my doctor. You know, I didn't because
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: the pain went away. I never had that pain again
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: until my seventy fifth birthday. On that night, I was
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: kind of short of breath. My right arm hurt and
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: there was a little bit of pain in my chest.
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: I told my wife, and at that time I was
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: between doctors. I hadn't gotten anew and my own other
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: doctor had taken another job in the hospital. So she
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: drives me to town six two aspirins. Get to the
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: emergency room, tell a lady I got test pains and
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: she's boomed. They stuck me on whatever you call it,
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: and I did a EKG and it showed nothing, and
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: then they did another test. I'm not sure what it was,
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: and they said he's having a heart attack right now.
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: So they threw me in an ambulance, took me to
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: Billings and they put two stents in and I had
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: to wait six weeks for the real open heart surgery,
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: which was December fifteenth of twenty fifteen. And I tell you,
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: waiting that six weeks was a nightmare because I knew
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: I was going to go under the knife and you know,
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: get the zipper.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: On the bright side, my surgeon had done three thousand
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: open orth surgeries and billings, so I was pretty he
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: was a great guy. And uh so got the got
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: the operation.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: Whatever he did work because here you are. Yeah.
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: And I told my cardiot, I said, when can I
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: start swinging that six pound mall? He said, he said,
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: you got to wait at least three four months, you know,
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: And so I did.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: And uh, you split all you split everything by hand.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: You don't use it.
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: I used to.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: You switched to hydraulic.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And then when I turned sixty five, you know,
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: my son was something. My dad still splits wooden me
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: sixty five years old, you know, And and uh I
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: bought a splitter. Yeah, And I mean that takes all
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: the work out of everything, you know, trying to cut
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: green split green cottonwood. You hit that with a mall
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: and it just kind of, you know, just full of
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: water comes up there make going to split. So you
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: got to hit it fifty more times hitting a sponge.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, man, I used to work The first tree service
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: I worked for was an outfit called Professional Tree Service
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: is when I was in community college. And interesting thing
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: about this dude that I worked with, he had bought
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: this property.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: You're gonna think I'm making this up. I'm not making
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: this up.
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: Man.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: He bought this property and when I'd get to work
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: in the morning, he would be out in the morning
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: with a metal detector, metal detect in his own yard
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: because someone had told him that the old lady that
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: he bought it from had been burying jars of money
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: with metallic like bell ball and Mason money jars with
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: metallic lids had.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: Been burying money all around the yard.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: And this guy's morning rituals to get up and metal
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: detect this ten acres whatever he had funny hoping to
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: dig up that money.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: But he so his middle finger is gone.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: And he used to run those sacks, you know, remember that,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Remember that I only still make sacks Dolmar chain saws
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: like horrible vibration control on those like no vibration control
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: on those chains. They were just monsters. He'd run those
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: sacks Dolmar saws, and he wouldn't. He had, he'd buy
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: a regular five finger glove obviously, But this middle finger
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: is gone. So I used to laugh because anytime he
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: was gripping something, he'd be giving you the finger because
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: there's no middle finger in there.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: To for the glove.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: And I always assumed he'd cut it off with a chainsaw,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: but we would a lot of times. All that would
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: when we were doing a removal or whatever, just going
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: to a mountain, and then if there was nothing else
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: to do, we'd go out there and firewood all that.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: And it was terrible because he'd bring it home in
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: all these weird chunks, you know, just lowering stuff right
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: into a truck. So it's like elbows and odds, and
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: you're just sorting through the pile trying to find sixteen
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: inch right cuts. And like I said, I never asked
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: him about that finger, but I assumed he cut it off.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: But one day we're cutting and I'm doing something or
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: not with that hydraulic splitter, and he says me, that's
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: just how I lost my middle I forgot that I
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: lost my finger out on a hydraulic splitter.
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's funny.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: Uh, let's go back to nineteen eighty six.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: And it's funny to think about, but Cole calling elk. Yeah,
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: even like bugling elk, man was you know, I'm sure
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: historically people figured it out. But like bugling elk, Coyle
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: calling elk, that wasn't in Hunter's toolkits.
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: No, not at all. Back when I first started our
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: bugle calls, we made him out of a he's a
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: garden hose or maybe a piece of pipe cut a
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: little notch in it, you know, And they sounded horrible
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: what they still called elk, and they were awful. And
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: then I remember when the first calls came out. But
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: I think when you say nineteen eighty six, you're referring
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: to the to the cow call.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah your article yeah about cow call? Right, your article elk?
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: Huntings knew a secret.
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: Yep, well I had. I had gone to gardener a
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: Lot Montana, which is literally on the border of Yellowstone Park.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: Were friends with uh were you parties of Don LAbau.
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: That Don Lobach invented to the cow call? Yeh yeah, yeah, okay,
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: So Don and I we'd hang out. He owned like
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: the saloon in town and the motel and the restaurant,
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: a gas station. He owned a bunch. He was from
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: Big Timber. Great guy. Anyway, one day we're sitting in
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: his bar and he pulled a thing out of his pocket.
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: He said, you know what this is? I said, have
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: no idea? He sai, Well, listen. He blows his thing
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: and everybody looks at him. He says, don't worry about them.
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: I own the bar.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: It makes his big shrieking noise. Does that sound like?
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: I said? It sounds like a cow elk? He says, well,
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: what do you think? I said, what do I think?
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: I don't know. What do you think? He said, well,
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: don't you think that, you know, cow elk? They vocalize
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: year around? I said, yeah, all year, not just like
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: during the rod. Yeah, like the bulls. So he said,
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: when you hunt turkeys, what do you sound like? It
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: sound like a hen. You're yelping out there, you know.
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: And he says, so don't you think you can use
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: a cow call to the track bulls or whatever? That
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: makes a lot of sense? He sai, I'll tell you.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: He says. It works. He says, I know it works
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: because I've done it. And he lived right in Gardener,
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: in the Elkwort in his yard year round. Yeah, he
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: heard him talking all the time. So he said, he said,
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: I'll give you a call if you don't mind it,
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: and would you if you like it, would you write
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: a story about I said absolutely, you know, after the
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: life like all that. It's a service magazine. You know,
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: people want to know how to do something, where to go,
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: or maybe he'll want to read an armchair story me
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: and Joe. But anyway, this was right up my alley,
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: and they said, oh, this is a big deal. There's
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: no such thing as a cow elk nothing, There was
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: no such thing. So I took it out and I
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: tried it for a year, and he had given a
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: couple to some outfitters up in that country, and it
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: worked like a charm for all sorts of reasons, you know,
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: not just to attract a note during the rut, but
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: all so I wrote a story about it in eighty six,
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: I think it was the August issue Elk Hunting's Knew
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: a Secret And at the bottom I put to order
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: a cow call called cow Talk from bon Don Lobox
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: and so and so nine ninety five and three bucks
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: to Blah Blah blah and Gardner, Montana. And before the
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: article came out. I told him that we're going to
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: put a plug for the call, and I asked him
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: how many calls he made? Said, well maybe my wife
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: d we made a couple of hundred in basement, you know.
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: I said, well, maybe he'll sell them. I can't tell
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: you him an hesel thousands and thousands and thousands. But anyway,
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: that and it was that was probably my as far
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: as having an impact on hunting for something new, that
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: was probably my number one story. But I didn't do it.
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: I just happened to be the lucky guy that don
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: knew and passed the story on.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: You didn't get a cut or commission on calls, no, no.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: And then he invented the power m yeah, oh yeah yeah.
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: And then he did a deer talk, a deer call
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: or something, and but his call went into the Cabella's
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: catalog and he sold a lot, a lot. But he's
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: still around in gardener. He's got a shop there were
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: he still wive.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, he's the gardener all the time.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: Really, you can find a story. Yeah, well, how old
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: is how old is he? Now?
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: He was he's probably he was probably a few years
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: younger than me. He probably probably late seven, I don't know,
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: I don't know, but he was. He was so much fun.
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: And we go up in the famous firing line, you know,
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: when the elk would come out of the forest, out
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: of the park and they'd get out, and they stepped
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: down the Gallaton National Forest, and holy smokes, one day
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: had kind of ninety six hunters up there. They had
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: built snow forts to hide, you know, and herd elk.
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: And then you go to the bar that night, his
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: bar they called the town bar, and everybody talk about
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: how many elk today? Why I see it. I heard
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: a ninety five come out and they killed ninety ninety
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: four of them, you know, but they changed that whole structure.
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: And then the wolf stepped in. You'll add like a
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: couple of thousand cow tags. It was nuts. And the
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: wardens would ride around on horses, and I was there.
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: I was just I never hunted there. I didn't want to,
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: but I'd just being a rider, you know, I'd walk around.
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: The wards would ride around on horses, and if hey
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: saw somebody shoot two elk, they'd give the guy a
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: fifty dollars fine and he could keep one elk. Honestly,
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: that's all they did a long time ago. Yeah, But interestingly,
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: one year, as you know, the Montana elk season runs
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: basically five weeks from October to the Sunday of Thanksgiving week.
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: One year, it was a really really really bad winter
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: during the general season, those elk came out by the thousands,
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: and everybody in Montana headed for Gardener. And I heard
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: a story that in one day they killed like seven
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: hundred elk. I mean, it was just crazy. Yeah, because
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: anybody with a general tag could go, you know. Yeah,
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: but so fascinating place. I spent a lot of time.
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: A lot of the photographers would go there and we'd
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: film elk during the rut and mule there during the
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: rut bighorn sheep. The Gardener was kind of the second
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: second home away from home for me. I spent a
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: lot of time there.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: My one of my kids got accosted by a mean
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: old lady and gardener. Yeah, we were in Gardener one time,
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: and you know, does the elk standley it's the park,
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: you know, just for people listen, this is the entrance
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: to the park. Yeah, it's the the Yelso National Park
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: of North Entrance. So you get a lot of these
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: like very very gbituated park elk. They just kind of
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: hanging around, like they're hanging around the gas station, they're
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: hanging around the hotels. Anyways, my kid is going up
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: to one of these elk and these a couple old
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: ladies just cut loose on them. He was a little kid.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: You leave them alone, really, Yeah, like I was thinking about,
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: you know, I didn't really get involved in it, but.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: It was kind of lady. You've seen what this kid's
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: showing to some elk.
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: When she went to park or was she just a civilian?
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: No, just some lady yelling at him on the side
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: of the road for getting too close to a tame elk.
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought that was funny.
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: We took When we took pictures in the park, we
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: had to have a commercial permit and we paid one
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: hundred bucks to film because we were in the business.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: We weren't just doing a the slide show at home,
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: you know. And those rangers if they saw you using
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: a cawcol they get all upset because you're harassing the elk.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: Oh, you were trying to call him for photography.
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, get him to get him to look at you
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: or whatever, you know, and stuff. But they're loveable. But anyway,
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: they Yellowstone is uh. It's one of the reasons I
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: moved to Cody because I just loved the park. First
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: first time a lazarira was in my wildlife class at
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: Utah State. Took a bus all those students and two
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: professors and went in the park in Golly nineteen sixty
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: three and we looked out the windowners or heard elks.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: First elk I ever saw, is that right?
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: We all ran over to the side of the bus,
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: you know. And that was when they were They literally
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: killed like five thousand in the park. They had regular
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: shooters and they had butchers come by and save the
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: meat and everything that was That was quite a deal.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, those days are past right now.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, those kind of out numbers.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: You spent time covering the Mileo Hanson buck yep, Yeah,
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: talk about that.
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: Well. I was in Saskatchewan hunting white tails, and I
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: think it's a same thing. But in Saskatchewan, a nod
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: resident can't hunt below the bush line. You can't hunt
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: in the agricultural areas. You gotta hunt north in the
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: bush and miltl lives and bigger. He had a farm there, but.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: He's south of the line. Yeah, yeah, he just passed away. Yeah,
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: he did a couple months ago.
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So we're having we're having dinner in my outfitters.
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: He had a farmhouse, that's where were said, and his
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: wife did the cooking. And we were sitting around the
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: table and she said, by the way, Milton Hanson kill
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: the world record white till a buck, and it's like
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: home in the back.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: I got refused. You're you're there when it happened.
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm there. I'm sitting there having dinner.
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: And it just got killed, just got killed, like the
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: day before, two days before. Okay, and I think I
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: met you were there later, I don't know you were there.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: I was there, and they already but they already knew
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: it was a record.
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: Well what had happened? I I didn't believe it, you know,
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: I said, well what at score? She said? I think
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: it was two fourteen? Holy smokes, are you kidding me? Yeah? Yeah,
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: I said. And then my guide sitting next to me,
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: we're having dinner, he says, I know Milele Hanson. In fact,
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: I sold him a box of Ammo. You know Milo Hanson,
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: He says, yeah, he said, you want me to call him?
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: I said, yeah. So he gets on the phone and
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: he called Milo and Milo confirms, yeah, yeah, I had
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: an official measurer and he says, I got a guy
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: from Outdoor Life here. He wants to talk to you.
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: So I talked to Milo and I said, any chance
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: I could come down in the morning and interview it.
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: He said, he said, yeah, no problem at all. So
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: really nice guy. So I called in the morning just
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: to confirm. The guy was going to take me to
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: his house.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and how far are you from the house?
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: About fifty miles dude? What luck? Man?
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: I know, I know, that's like John Crackauer being on
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: That's like John Crackar being on Everest when that big
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: disaster happened.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, like right in the mix. Yeah.
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: So I called him in the morning to confirm. He says, geez,
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, he said, but Gordon, Gordon Woodington is sitting
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: in my living room. Gordon was the editor for North
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: American White Tail outed Georgia, I think South Carolina.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: He was already there.
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: He had flown all night and he was sitting in Milets. No. Yeah,
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: I swear to God. Yeah. Yeah.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: In fact, he scooped you from Georgia.
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Georgia.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: In fact, I put this on Facebook when Milo passed away,
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: that a couple of pictures, you know, and Gordon chimed in.
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: He says, yeah, that was a great time. But he
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: had a he wanted to write the story real quick,
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: real quick, that have the issue ready for the shot show,
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: which I think was in January. So he wrote the
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: story and my bosss in New York. He was, of course,
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: he was all excited. I called him that night, Vince Brown,
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: and I said, Vin, I said, my god, this is
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: this is this is the story of the damn decade
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: of this entry work, whitetail. Yeah, and he said, well,
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: get the story. Blah blah blah. Says well I can't.
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: Gordon's here. He says, well, reckon rights. We'll pay him
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: some money whatever exclusivity. And I don't know what the
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: hell he did. I don't get involved in that part
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: of it, but at any rate, Gordon had the story
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: in Sports of Field and I interviewed Milo and we
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: talked about the whole deal. Was like an as too
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: Att story as told to Jim Zumbo. Yeah, yeah, And
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: he told me the whole story. He went up to
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: his farm and really great guy.
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: So he didn't live on that farm, Yeah, yeah.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: He did, so he lived there.
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, tell the story him killing the world record buck,
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: because then I want to get into whether it really
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: is the world record buck.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: Okay, you know where I'm going with this.
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know where you're going. Well, evidently that buck
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: had been seen by the school bus driver, you know,
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: and in fact, somebody had taken a shot at it
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: and missed it. Really Yeah, So the way they hunt
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: up there, and this was somewhat controversial because what these
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: farmers they're all Ukrainians, you know, and they deer for sausage.
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: That's what they do. They don't give a damn about warns.
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: In fact, yeah, I know the kind. So they got
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: all these all this kind of open country with all
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: this popple, which is like stunted aspen, and basically they
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: drive these different areas and I think Milo was sitting
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: there by his pickup. They pushes, they do pushes. Yeah. Yeah.
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: So Mile is sitting there by his pickup truck and
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: here comes his buck, nice buck, you know, and he
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: shoots it. It goes down and he walks down to it.
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: This way. He told me. The first thing he said
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: is that's a nice buck, but boy, not very big.
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: I ain't gonna get much sausage off of that thing.
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: That's exactly what he said. And it was a hole
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: in the antler where somebody had had hit him in
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: the antler and they dragged that buck by that by
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: that antler, and the good thing it didn't break off,
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: sure right, disqualify. Yeah, So anyway, he gets the buck
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: home and people start hearing about it. So he calls
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: a boon, the Crockett guy, and he comes over and
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: he measured it, and I think the score was what
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: two fourteen and something like that. So anyway, funny story.
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: We're at the shot show and Ian mcbirchie was a
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: Canadian photographer. He passed away and Miles said, Ian is
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: the only guy that's going to photograph this buck. Now.
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: The wife wanted to send some big shot photographer from
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: New York to Canada to film the bucket, and Milo
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: said no, and so all of you know, the editors
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: and they were all upset, like what kind of picture
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: were you going to get for? They wanted to put
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: it on the cover yep. And in fact, the president
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: of Outdoor Life was not a haunter he was a
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: three piece suitor from New York. And he says, we
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: can't put that buck on the cover an April issue.
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: That's the trout issue. We got to put a trout
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: out of the cover. Is this true? So anyway, we
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: put the buck on the cover. So we met Ian
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: at the shot show and he comes over to our table.
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: I sit with a bunch of guys and he said,
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: I got something for his umb and he gives me
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: a little sliver of sausage. He said, that's the world record,
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: but no really yeah, so he no, he gave me
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: the whole sausage. You got to eat a chunk of that,
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: but we got so help me. Yeah, but anyway, that.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: Really Yeah, dude, you can sell that sausage for a
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: lot of money. Now, man, it'd be a little old,
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: a little freezer burn. But yep, no kidding. You had
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: a chunk of the.
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: Hands in a chunk of yep. True story. And Milon
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: and I became friends on Facebook.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: You've got to be kidding me.
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: No, so honest. In fact, when I put that in
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: my little comment on Facebook, and two or three other
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: guys sitting at the table said the same thing. Yeah,
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: that was really a great piece of sausage or whatever. Wow,
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: I can't think of who I was well with, just
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: I don't know some friends and writers.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: But hey, when you when you think of doing a push,
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: what do you call the people?
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: What term do you use?
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: Because buddies all around the country have different terms for it,
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: like pushers and sitters?
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: You know, like, what'd you guys call them?
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: Usually the drivers in the standards.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: You do drivers, that's guys do that. It's wrong, Yeah,
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: it's wrong, pushers and sitters. A lot of people don't
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: know this. They think it's drivers. And my buddy's in
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: Pennsylvania got some real dumb thing they call it. But yeah,
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: they got like I can't remember what they got, some
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: dumb things.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: They get it all. They get all confused. Now how
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: to do it? How to do it? Drive?
• 56:18
  Speaker 3: You know? Jeez?
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty crazy man.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: So so obviously you know around Like remember when I
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: made that comment, like, is it the world record? So
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: I think that there's so these records stand a long time, right,
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: So there's only been a it's only like the world record.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: Bucks only turned over a couple of times.
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: The first buck was a Jordan buck that was that
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: was around for got like fifty years. Yeah, and that
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: was scored maybe two nine or something maybe I don't know,
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: I forget yep.
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: Then it got whooped in the hell was it ninety six?
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: What year was it ninety three?
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: The Handsome Bucks nine oh ninety six was a round
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: Poulla buck, round pole metchron Pold. So let's jump to that.
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: Everybody still calls the hands and Buck. You know, it's
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: the world record buck. But there's this there's this question
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with the question is like is it because
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: then a guy in in mitch ron Pol outside of
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: Traverse City, Michigan, mid nineties, he aar was a bigger buck, right,
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: shrouded in controversy, shrouded in controversy.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: What's your take on that buck?
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: Well from only what I've heard, No.
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: Don't cavyat at all? The hell just tell me.
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: What you know. Tom Huggler, who Tom Huggler, Huddler, Yeah,
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: it's from Michigan. No, he's like the outdoor guy. He's
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: got a big show and stuff. I went to a
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: show one time at expos show.
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you know how you like meet
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: people and kind of maybe like the name doesn't click,
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: but I'm not.
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: I don't believe I'm familiar.
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: Okay, Anyway, time and I were buddies. I was in a
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: Michigan one time doing a doing a seminar and l
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: hunt or something. And and from what I understand this
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: may or may not be true, but Mitch ron Pla
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: would not let anybody take a picture of that buck. Nobody.
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: Well, now I don't know, I don't there's pictures of
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: that buck.
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: But who took the pictures?
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: He did? He did?
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: Didn't he kill other bucks with the same kind of
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: big white yep, some honey honey whole somewhere.
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: Listen, dude, this is why the story makes. It starts
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: to like really make its own gravy. You know, it
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: goes deeper and this this story is a bottomless pit.
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it kills the buck. He has a recovery video.
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: I thought, well, I'm obsessed with this thing, man, I'm
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: gonna make them documentary about it. So kills a buck,
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: makes a recovery video, right, get some pictures. I mean
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: that there's so many twists and turns of this thing.
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: A handful of people handle the buck. I wouldn't sat
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: on the phone with a guy that I spent two
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: hours on the phone with a guy that held the buck. Okay,
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: but in quickly there's a lot of skepticism about certain aspects.
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: I'm making a short version of there's a lot of
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: skepticism about aspects of the buck. It gets measured. Some
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: people come forward and they're like, the buck ought to
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: be x rayed.
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: There's varying explanations of what he did to it, you know.
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: Some people say that he kind of made like a
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: sort of frank and rack, like he constructed a rack,
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: killed a buck, opened it, opened it up like this,
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: took the skull plate out, put a skull plate in there, right, abricated,
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: you know. But this guy was talking to me one time.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: He had the weirdest observation about it. Man, he said that, uh,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: I don't want to give his name, but he said
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: that when he went to see the buck after it
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: was killed, he said, it was in a truck with
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: the top around it.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: You'll get this because you're a hunter. It's in a
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: truck with the toper on it.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: And picture when you jam a deer into a truck
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: with the toper on it, right, they're hard to.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: Get in there.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: And he says that that buck was like jammed into
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: this truck with a toper on it, and then you
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: kind of like cock the head up in there.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: Right. So he says, when he.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: Goes to look at the buck, it's cocked in this
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: trailer like where it's head and rack are kind of
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: jammed into the topper as you're looking into the top
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: er on.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: The left side. And he talked about.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: Him kind of wrastling because it's stiffened up. He talked
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: about him kind of rass in that head out of there,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: and he's like, if that was a make believe Frank
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: and Rack, would you have jammed it into a topper
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: like that? It's true, it's an interesting point, but he
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: wouldn't submit it to an x ray because people wanted
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: to x ray it. And eventually he gets to this point.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: He eventually gets to the point where he says, with
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: all the scrutiny, he says, this isn't why I hunt.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: You can all shove it up your ass, and that's
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: not his words, but this isn't why I hunt. And
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: he takes his buck home, never to be seen again.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: And that's been that. That's been the stance since it's
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: like he didn't play the game, but people point out he.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: Was playing the game. He was playing the game.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: Video video photography declared it right, and eventually there was
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: a with the hands in the state. They signed a deal.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: They signed a contract that and he was such that
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: he would stop saying it was the world record buck.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: A lot of people wonder why he doesn't want to
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: claim it. I mean, you know it.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: So I've sat on so many sides of this thing, man,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: like I'm sure you have. I got a buddy from
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: I got buddy from back home. He's an outdoor writer.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: We went to high school together. He was a trapper.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: He always felt that the he always thought the buck.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: Was was bs okay.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: But one day he told me, one day he went
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: to a guy's house that touched the buck, didn't handle
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: the buck, And.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: He said, when I walked out of his house.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: For a period of time, when I walked out of
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: his house for a period of time, I knew it
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: was real. And he goes, and I think, as he
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: explained to me, he doesn't know where he stands on it.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: Now. I've been I've gone back and forth both sides.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: One day I was explaining to someone I was telling
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: someone like I was trying to explain to someone that
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: doesn't hunt, how everybody has an opinion about this, okay,
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: And as we're talking, I'm like, everybody's gonna pinion about
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: this thing. So I sent a text message like just watch.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: So I'm trying to think of people that he would
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: know about. And I sent a text message to Jeff Foxworthy,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: and I sent a text message to Nugent and I, Hey,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: what do you guys think of the independently not in
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: a group text? What do you think of the round
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: palla buck right? One of them comes back with an answer,
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: I don't buy it. One of them comes back with
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: the answer I give him the benefit of the doubt.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: Geez.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: So it's like, dude, I'm fascinated by the whole story. Man,
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: I would like nothing more than to touch that buck.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: I had always heard this rumor. I don't even know
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: where I heard it.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: I'd heard a rumor that it had burned up, Like
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: I can't even think of who told me this said
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: burned up in some fire or something.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: But I was talking to a guy and.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: He's like, man, uh, Mitch lives in the same house
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: he's lived in when he killed the buck.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: That buck ain't the house ain't burned down.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: Geez, you know, I wonder did the Boone Cracker Club
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: ever approach him.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: It's not certified with the Boone Cracker Club.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: It's not.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: No, because of these questions about.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: I think it's like, well, if it was, if it was,
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, I you know what, I take that back.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: But if it was certified, if it was B and
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: C certified, then then it would be the world record.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: But you know what's crazy, man about this whole deal.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: A weird part about this whole deal is it like,
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: you know, all that screw routine. He came on him
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: like a lot of that screwtin He's motivated by jealousy
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: and stuff. Because we had on the podcast a hunter
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: named Dustin Huff who killed the big He holds the
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: biggest typical white tail in the US, so the nation's record,
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: but not bigger than the Hansoen buck, which is the
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: world record. So he has the biggest white tail in
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: the US. When he killed that whitetail, he killed it.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: Flat out, fair and square.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: But what do you think happened when he killed it?
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: All over right away?
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: All the ways in which he must have cheated it,
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? Yeah, Yeah, he anticipated
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: it coming and calls his Fish and Game office and
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: he says, I just killed a huge buck, like it
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: might be the big it might be a record. I
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: just killed it. No one calls him back. Really well,
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: then a while later they do call. You know why
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: they call because all the reports they're getting about how
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: he cheated the system, he tried to get hold him
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: in the first place, and that while so a lot
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: of that stuff just comes because there's so much jealousy
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: and bitterness.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, totally you know, but it's a real mystery, dude.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: I've never killed a three seventy five Elk Bloom Crocodi Elk.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 3: I've gotten some three fifties, but I always figured if
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: I did, you know, all hell is going to break loose,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: you know, just because people get so damn jealous, and
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: you know, being the fact that I, you know, I
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 3: hunt full time. Yep, Well he got it on his
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 3: ranch or you know they had that elk you know,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: filming him every day. Blah blah blah. Sure, sure, it's
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: just yeah, you're going to hear about it. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 3: wondering to think about the mile Hanson buck with that
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: buck was three years old, only three years old.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: That's the thing I tell people too, Man, I didn't
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: know that to just recently all that talk about six
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: seven years six years old, seven years old, the biggest
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: I was the biggest buck ever killed?
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: Yep, three yep? Nuts. Would he have been bigger than
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: next year?
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: Probably? I suppose you.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: Know another little wrinkle about the round polar buck. What
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: that place don't make big bucks, doesn't It don't make
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: big bucks? Big bucks don't come out of there, you
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: know what a story? But someone told me it's a freak,
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: and freaks can happen anywhere. But it's like it doesn't
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: make big bucks.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: You remember Gordon Eastman, Yo, Yeah.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: Dude, I remember him interviewing I remember listening to an
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: interview of Gordon Eastman interviewing Don Lovac about.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: The call I thought was Lawbauer or whatever law Buck.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: They became partners and they did a bunch of videos together. Sure, man,
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 3: But Gordon, he lived in Cody for a while. We
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 3: got to be pretty good friends. He told me some
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 3: wild stories when he'd take his little plane up in
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 3: the Arctic and live with the Eskimos. But he told
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 3: me every boona Crockett buck is a freak. Oh, every
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: boone crocket buck is a freak. I mean that's what
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: he said.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: So anyway, yeah, that's what this one one guy I
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: was talking to you about that buck. He's like, it's
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: a freaking freaks happen anywhere.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: It's a freak. So maybe it was a freak year
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: for a freak buck or.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: No, no, sorry not I mean sorry when I'm talking
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: about the youngness of the Hanson buck, I mean maybe
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: that was like a freak that it was, you know,
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: but you wondered what he at five? Would he have
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: been like extra the world record earlier gone downhill?
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: I don't know. Yeah, well since he was only three,
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: I think he would probably be bigger. But I don't know.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: What's your uh you know, old fellers like you and.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: Me, Yeah, right, like I always shot like people.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, people are like, hey, man, what what's your You know,
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: people have to.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 3: Get older than you, Steve.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they ask you like, uh, you know, youngster's young.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: Little whipper snappers will tell to me about want and
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: talk calibers, you know, and at this point I'm like, uh,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: like it's like a tinge of embarrassment. You know when
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: I talk about why I shoot a three hundred win
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: mag a lot, right, I shoot it a lot. Yeah,
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: I have other stuff. My kids shoot six five because
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: I trained up my kids on suppressed six y five creedmores,
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: because I just didn't want them to develop, you know,
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: fear of recoil, fear of noise. So suppressed six y
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: five is like a very It's a great way to
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: break them in.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: I would shoot a three hundred win meg cause I
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: just like, you know, I just I just shoot it
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: at whatever.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: You know, it's a great gun. What's your where do
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: you stand?
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: You know, with all the new calibers and stuff, do
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: you feel a need to stay hipped to the new calibers?
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: You shoot the old classics.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: I shoot the old classics. You know, way back in
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 3: sixty four, I graduated went graduated in high school, and
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 3: my father in law told me to to go to
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: a store and buy a gun. Now, that was just
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 3: one of the pre sixty four's. We're going away. It was
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: sixty four. It was an old electrical store in Burly, Utah,
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: and they sold everything from diapers to washing machine you know,
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 3: and every they had a few guns on the wall.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 3: So I went in there and I was going to
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: pick out my gift, and I wanted a two seventy
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: because I was a huge Jack O'Connor fan, you know. Okay,
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: so doing no P six Pre sixty four two seventies.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 3: They had them two seventies, but they were brand new,
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 3: and I didn't want one. But they had a thirty
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 3: h six Pre sixty four.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: Okay, And explain what you mean when you say, because
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: people a lot of guys aren't gonna what you mean.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 3: Might say at Pre sixty four nineteen the Quaw Extractor.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 3: And yeah, in nineteen sixty four Winchester came out with
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 3: a modified super version of the old nineteen sixty four.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 3: But I'm not exactly sure all what the differences were.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 3: But I just knew that O'Connor was a serious fan,
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: you know, of the two seventy, and but.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: That I think that pre I can't remember, man, Like
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: the guys are going to crucify me for not memoring this.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: I can't remember what all the selling points were. I
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: was like, I think point of manufacturer on Pre sixty four,
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: something about the way of the extractor like it was
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: a claw extractor and post wasn't. But for for decades
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: after that, people were built built custom rifles off Pre
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: sixty four actions.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: They didn't want the rest of the gun right and
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: they want the action exactly.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: So anyway, I picked out that at thirty six, and
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 3: I I was twenty four years old, and I used
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 3: that gun for probably twenty years on elk and deer
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: and moose whatever. And I mean, you know, you get
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: a gun that is you're sweet on it because it works,
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 3: you know when you put it up through your shoulder
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: and you know, it's just it's just right. I love
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 3: that gun and being Honting editor and writing about it
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 3: so much in the magazine. My boss, Clara Conley, he said, somebody,
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 3: you write too much about that, Dan Winchester. We got
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 3: another advertisers, you know that Remy and Savage and Marlin
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 3: and Ruger and stuff. He says, you got to start
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 3: using different guns. So I said, okay. So I went
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: on a trip one time and Bridge Columby with Chuck
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 3: Gager and.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: Chuck Yeager the right stuff, Chuck Yeager, yep, yep.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: We went out there hunting, hunting elk, and it was
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: perfect time of the year, like September twenty sixth, prime
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: bugle time. The woods were silent as hell, and we
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: were staying in a cabin with an outfitter and he
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 3: was hunting with a guy on one mountain. I was
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 3: hunting with a guy on another mountain. Long story short,
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 3: I finally saw a both alex standing in a small
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 3: opening long, long ways away. There were no range finders
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: in those days, and I had to shoot kind of
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 3: over a canyon. I don't know how far he was,
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 3: but I took a shot, and I'm pretty sure I
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 3: shot under him because he just stood there. Took another shot,
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: nothing happened. The third shot, he kind of lurched and
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 3: he ran off, and my guide was kind of standing
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 3: behind a tree and he didn't really couldn't see it
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: get a good view with that elk. So we went
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: down and we looked for it. Couldn't find anything. We
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 3: crawled around, no hair, no no blood, no fur, nothing,
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 3: and we just made big circles. And after literally forty
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 3: five minutes or an hour, Carl, my guy, says, you
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 3: must have missed him. I said, maybe I did. I
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 3: don't know, I said, I just thought I heard him.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 3: And he said, well, I'm going back. We had the
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 3: horses tied up on a rage. He said, I'm going
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 3: back up on the ridge. I said, I'm going to
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 3: look a little bit more. So yeah, he looks with me,
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 3: and so we left and we're halfway to the horses
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, I had this weird sensation
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 3: like esp or whatever, and I heard that I heard
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: a noise like an animal hitting the ground, and I
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 3: saw that bull alert in my mind. I saw it.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 3: I said, Carl, that bull dead. He said, what are
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 3: you talking about? I said, that bullt dead. Wait here
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 3: if you want to, I'm going to go find that bull.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 3: And I ran straight to it. Really, I swear to God.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: What do you think it was?
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: What had happened?
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: Was? I mean, what do you think of? You?
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: Just like your mind pulled up an image that, Yeah,
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: like that you kind of hadn't thought of as you
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: viewed your memory.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like another time I was hunting moose and
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: all of a sudden it was real foggy and something
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: was drilling into my back, something was looking at me,
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: and the fog finally left and it was a Newfoundland
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 3: and there's this moose. But Anyway, I went right to
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 3: that bull. What had happened. There was an old spruce
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 3: straight it was kind of down in the ground, and
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 3: it was typically It had kind of a big space
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: around it, and there was these big branches growing out.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 3: That bull had fallen into that, into that hole. God,
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 3: it was about that much of his time sticking out.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 3: And I don't know why I didn't smell it, because
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 3: you know, an Elko bull, elk, he's going to break
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 3: a little bit. I think I was probably and three
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: feet of that boat, crawling and looking, and I yelled
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 3: the carl I found him. He says he was. He
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 3: couldn't believe it. But anyway, long story short, so Jager's
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 3: up on this mountain and he hears me shoot three times.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 3: So we go to camp that and I said, what
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 3: the hell happened? Why did you have to shoot three times?
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 3: He says, I said, well, I don't know what do
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 3: you use it? And I said, I'm using thirty out six?
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 3: I said, well, why is your damn problem. We're sitting
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 3: around the campfire, right So he walks over with his
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 3: whether it be mark five three hundred, he says, here's
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 3: a man's gun. Get rid of that guy damn Pip squeak,
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 3: So he didn't know it. But I had promised that
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 3: gun to my son because Claire Conley told me to
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 3: use other guns, so I got his weather we and
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 3: that's when I had to finally quit using that thirty
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 3: o six. But as far as other guns, you know,
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 3: I've I don't know. I'm just kind of a traditional,
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 3: old old school guy, and I use a three hundred
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 3: rum right now for elk. You know, run me to
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 3: an ultramag and you know those cartridges, you put them
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 3: next to a three seventy five. If you don't look
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 3: real close, you can't hardly tell the damn difference. I
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 3: mean it kicks like a mule and it's not suppressed.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 3: But I love the gun. I use it for elk,
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 3: boose bears, and for deer an antelope, I use a
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 3: Kimber two seventy and that was kind of a special gun.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 3: One time, Chuck Yeger they wanted him to be a
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 3: guest speaker for Pacific Northwest Steelheaders in Portland, Oregon, and
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 3: they knew I knew Chuck, and if I invited a
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 3: Chuck on a trip, he didn't want his regular stipend.
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 3: He wanted a trade for a hunting of fishing trip.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 3: He was on fish and nut. So I made a
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 3: deal and I said, Chuck, if he'll come to Portland,
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 3: I already had researches, I'll get you set up with
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 3: five guys on five rivers in the Northwest area fishing
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 3: for salmon at a boat and stuff. So we made
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 3: that deal and he came. While we're there, we went
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: to the Kimber factory, which was in Portland at that time.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 3: They knew we were coming, and when the tour was over,
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 3: they gave Chuck a rifle, seven of them m which
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 3: is his favorite, and it said mock one in gold.
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 3: That was the serial number. And they gave me that
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 3: two seventy and it said Zumbo for the serial number.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 3: So it was so special. I still shoot it. So
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 3: it is really Yeah, that's great. But you know, as
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 3: you know, everybody knows that it's bullet placement. You know,
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 3: for the most part. I remember O'Connor saying, when you
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 3: shoot an elk with a two seventy right behind and
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 3: that crease right behind the shoulder and get a double
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 3: long shot, that bull's golling eighty r and he's dying
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 3: which is pretty much you know, not always true, but
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 3: it's pretty much is. But so, you know a lot
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 3: of people come out west from East Coast or when
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 3: they're hunting white tails, and they think they got to
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 3: have a great, big, giant gun, but it's not really
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 3: and they're afraid of it, you know, and they hate
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 3: to shoot the damn thing, but they think they got
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 3: to have it. So I always say, you know, shoot
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 3: which you can shoot best, you know, back home, but
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 3: don't bring to thirty thirty. Yeah, you know, unless you're
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 3: in the woodards something.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: But first year I ever killed with a gun, pardon
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: I said, the first year I ever killed with a gun. Yeah,
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: I shot it with a open Sight Model ninety four
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: thirty two special.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 3: Oh did you uh huh?
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: This dude, I've told his story one hundred times, but
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: this this dude was kind of a mentor, good buddy
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: my dad's. He had this cabin. His name is Eugene Grotors,
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: and he had the he had these gun racks built
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: into the ceiling of the cabin. He was in his
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: eighties like yourself. And when I was a kid, though,
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: and he would do this thing with kids. He did
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: it with me where he'd say, Uh, you know, I
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: I try to have one gun for every year I've
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: been alive, really in the roof and when I was little,
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: and he says, you know, and I counted the other
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: day and realized I have an extra. And he would
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: do this with kids. You know, I have an extra.
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: And so he pulled that gun down and yeah, shot
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: deer with it. And the dumbest thing I ever did,
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: the dumbest thing I ever did, is I took it
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: down and sold it at a place that sold wood
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: stoves and guns. And that dude gave me three hundred
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: bucks for it because I wanted a bolt gun. Dumbest
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: thing I ever did, man, dumbest thing I ever did.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: The other thing I wanted to ask you about, like
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: you do it?
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: I mean you're like for your age, dude, you're doing
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: like phenomenally well, right, Yeah, what's it like in life
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: when you get to where I mean, you know more
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: people that are you've known more people that are dead
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: than there are a lot I do you know what
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: I'm saying, Oh.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 3: My buddy's back eat dead, every one of them.
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what's that start to look like? You know what
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 2: I mean? Like, how do you start, How do you
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: think about all that? What's that? Starting to feel like?
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm thankful every day I get that I get
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 3: out of bed, you know, being eighty five, because you know,
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 3: I'm way beyond the normal age for white man and stuff.
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 3: But I just wrote I'm writing a story right now
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 3: for Buble magazine and have everything on ag And how
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 3: you feel first seeing it happens pretty much is your
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 3: balance starts going, like just putting on a Honting boot,
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 3: no problem. But I got to the point where I
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 3: realized it was easier to sit down or you know,
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 3: to lace the thing up. So little things like that happened,
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 3: and now I'm at the point where I can't ride
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 3: a horse anymore, and that really hurts.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: What what? What? What? What? What happens when you go
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 2: to ride a horse?
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 3: Your balance and just getting up on a thing, you know,
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 3: when I go upstairs, I got to have a railing
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 3: use a cane sometimes. But but I have a foot issue,
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 3: and the issue and the heart the art seems to
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 3: be okay. You know, my back, I've got back, serious
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 3: back issues. But and I haven't taken care of myself.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 3: You know, most of my hunts were remote wilderness hunts
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 3: on horseback, and a lot of hiking in tough country.
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 3: Early on, I was a forester. I did a lot
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 3: of wildfire suppression, and which is I think the toughest
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 3: job you can have, because you're going there's no timetable.
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 3: You know, you got those. But so I was. I
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 3: was always in a pretty dog on good shape. But
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 3: then I realized, well, like right now, somebody wants me
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 3: to do something to fall and it's like, well, maybe
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 3: I'll be able to maybe I won't be here. I mean,
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 3: you can't sit around and cry about it. And a
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 3: lot of people say, you're so damn lucky. You know
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 3: that you can still do stuff. Yeah, because a lot
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 3: of guys twenty years younger than I have given up
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 3: punting because they just can't, you know, they can't get around.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 3: So it's a sobering thing. One day I drove up
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 3: the South working near Cody, which takes you up to
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 3: the famous thoroughfare where Jack O'Connor is hunted a lot
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 3: and I've hunted a lot, and I was sitting on
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 3: the on the dirt road where the trailhead is, and
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 3: I saw these guys come down. They had they were
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 3: on horseback and they each led two horses, and I
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 3: said it elk Antler's six point bull and all the meat,
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 3: two bulls, and I thought, I'll never go up that
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 3: trail again.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: Oh so.
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, But you know the only alternative is that you're dead, right, Yeah.
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: People complain about getting old, you know what I mean.
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: It's like, well, what would be the opposite of that?
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's being dead.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 3: My dad lived in ninety two, did he Yep? And
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 3: that's because he fell and broke his hip. When you followed.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: Breakerr hip at a certain age, death sentence.
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 3: He's going into rehab and then you're going into the
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 3: censet living and you're going to rest home and then
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 3: you're done.
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: Who are the people you miss the most?
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 3: What?
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: Who are the people the friends that you've lost? Like,
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: who are the people but you missed the most?
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 3: Oh gosh, Oh golly, there's a lot of them. Oh gosh.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 3: One of my one of the my all time best buddy.
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 3: The name was Louis Gizarelli, real Italian name, yep. And
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 3: we were buddies since we were twelve, and we were
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 3: in boy Scouts together and we hunted and fish like crazy.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 3: We trapped and we'd be riding our bicycles at five
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 3: in the morning before school to check our muskrat traps.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 3: And we're the best of friends. And the year before
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 3: I joined out our wife in seventy eight, he got killed.
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 3: He somehow he had he had rolled off a bridge
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 3: and his truck landed. The water was only two foot deep,
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 3: and his truck landed on its on its top, and
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 3: he drowned in the truck. Oh, and I missed that guy.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 3: We go to Newfoundland fishing for ATLANTICX. We're hunting bears,
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 3: you know, and we had so I mean, weach catch
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 3: yellow perch and bluegills the hell one habit and a
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 3: lot of times I'd be hunting squrels and I'm having
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 3: my game pocket and at the end of the day,
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 3: they're all stiff, you know, and it's hard to skin.
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 3: LUI said, leave the damn things here, I'll do it.
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 3: That kind of guy, we'd always fight away the best
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 3: mentos in the bucket, you know, when we're on the boat,
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 3: in the best worms. Uh. Yeah, he was. He was special,
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 3: But they're just most of the guys that I miss
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 3: a lot were the guy's back case. We had a
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 3: cabin in the d around and the catch skills. Deer
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 3: cabin typical deer cabin, you know.
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: And but.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 3: So yeah, it's it's tough because you know, people are
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 3: dying every day, especially as you get older, and sometimes
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 3: there's there's a you know, they get killed in an
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 3: accident or whatever.
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is tough, man. Yeah.
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: The thing that I got a real good buddy I lost.
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: And you know what haunts me the most about that
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: is the times I had negative that I had negative
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: comments about him to other friends about whatever. We get
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: into a skirmish about something, you know, and I'd have
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: negative comments about him.
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 2: That sticks with me now.
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: Man, the feeling of how I should never have said
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: that ship anytime we had it. We knew each other
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: for many, many years, so of course we had like disagreements.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 2: That sticks with you. Tell people about your books. You
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: got a handful of them here.
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know that your first book, This is crazy,
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: but your first book was called Ice Fishing East and West.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't know about this one. I know.
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 3: It's out of print, but it's funny. That cover Hard
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 3: Catch sent me. That cover look snowmobiles.
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah that's yeah, Yeah, fish cleaning, snow.
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 3: Travel yeahty on the ice were to fine fish. Yeah,
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 3: that book. Let's say I wrote it in seventy six.
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 3: I think, God am mighty, that's port fifty years old. Huh.
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know how I didn't know about this book
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: because we I come from longland ice fish.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: Man, yeah.
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 3: Well the editor of that book, he was with Outdoor
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 3: Life and he worked for David O. McKay company in
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 3: New York City, and he saw me at the shot
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 3: show and he said, once, write a book on ice fishing,
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 3: which is latch, write a book on cottontail rabbits. I said,
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 3: who the hell was going to buy that?
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: Po So, yeah, you sold one copy? Yeah, I've known
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: about it. Did this Did this ice fishing book sell
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: any copies?
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 3: No?
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: Not really, I can't picture it would.
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 3: That was back in the days where you do the
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 3: royalty thing, like you get ten percent of this first
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 3: first ten thousand books, and twelve percent for the next
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 3: ten and fifteen percent for the next.
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: And I don't think that. I don't know what it's
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: like and never want to make any jingle for you.
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 3: That was back in the day when I mean you
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 3: win you ice fish. Nowadays got all kinds of stuff,
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 3: you know, obviously just a ton of new stuff. Back
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 3: in the old days, you drill the hole and you
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 3: stood there with the warmest clothes you could do like
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 3: a man. Yeah, you stick your hand in that damn
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 3: cold bait bucket and grab a minnow and the wind
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 3: or whatever. You just stay there. And so it wasn't
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 3: there was no really technology to it. Today, you know,
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 3: there's all sorts of stuff.
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: Even when I was young, so much ice fishing gear
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: was homemade. Yeah, you know my man would make his
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: ice fishing absolutely, yeah, yeah, a lot of it was homemade.
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but these books took off, man.
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they did really well. It was to Heck with Deer,
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 3: to Heck with out the Heck with Moose. Basically, those
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 3: are just stories that I've written, Like each one has
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 3: like thirty stories in them, uh huh about crazy stuff,
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 3: you know, each each one of us Hunt the Heck
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 3: with Moose is actually a compilation of everything other than
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 3: deer and elk, like moose, caribou, sheep, antelope. So those
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 3: are all kinds of different stories. You regret naming it
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 3: to Heck with I do you know, people, there worn't
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 3: the hell or what's what's wrong with that book, and
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 3: there was just a.
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: Title you on it bugs you?
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. But once I explained it, then they looked
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 3: at it. I said, yeah, okay, and to heck with
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 3: to heck with how to get an easy yelk. That's
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 3: kind of just a In fact, Pat McManus wrote the
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 3: forward in that book.
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: That was a funny man. I never met him. With
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: my guys, that got funny. We're emailing around favorite Pat McManus.
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: Quotes the other day. Yeah, just the other day.
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 3: It was so much fun.
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: But it was a funny, funny guy.
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he was. I would read him as a kid.
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 3: Can I tell you quick? Pat McManus, the editor about
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 3: their life, said, why don't you and McManus go in
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 3: a hunt somewhere and write a double feature, you know,
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 3: side by side, and each of you tell what happened
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 3: in that hunt. Mm hmm. So we uh decided, well,
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 3: let's go and hunt something that's got fangs and clarks,
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 3: you know, to make it make it real, real interesting.
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 3: So we went on a bear hunting British Columbia with
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 3: Remington and a bunch of writers and it was a
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 3: real crazy spring. It was snow everywhere and the bears
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 3: were not out. They were in the cottonwood trees, way
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 3: up in the cottonwood trees, and you could look out
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 3: over this river and see five or six bears, black blobs,
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 3: but they were kind of smallesh bears. You know, I
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 3: don't think there was a six footer up there eating
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 3: in there in British Columbia.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: Like, no, they're laying up, they're eating, uh yeah, yeah eating.
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: It was big buds.
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 3: So well, nobody's doing very well. And on the fourth day,
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 3: Pat got a bear. Okay, so of course he's a
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 3: humor writer, he gets a bear. I don't have a
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 3: bury yet, right, So the last day, my guy and
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 3: I were driving around and there's a bear standing there
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 3: looking at us, like seventy eighty yards away, piece of cake,
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 3: you know, meat on the table, and he's just looking
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 3: at us in the snow. So I got out of
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 3: the truck, set up my sticks and I said, you know,
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 3: there's my bear. I fired and he just looked at me.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 3: He didn't do a damn thing. He just then he
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 3: kind of just ambled off and waddled away. That bear
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 3: would not hit so the guy, so I said, I
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 3: missed him. The guy said, you sure, hell did miss him?
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 3: What the hell happened? I said, I don't have any idea.
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 3: So I said, I'm going to go up there where
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 3: the bear was. I'm going to find his tracks. And
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 3: I looked for blood tube they know, And I'm gonna
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 3: you stand right where I shot from, draw a straight
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 3: line and I looked in There is the top of
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 3: a Douglas fir tree laying in the snow. There was
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 3: a little hole in it. The bullet had deflected. Yeah,
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 3: so we go back to camp, passing our tent. Here's
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 3: us pull up. Do you get what? I said? Yeah,
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 3: I got one. Where is it? I said, right there?
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 3: And he looks at that piece of tree and learn
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 3: laughing like how I told him the story. So there's
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 3: a little place where you get cell service. So I
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 3: called the editor in New York and I said, I
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 3: got a I got an interesting story. I said, Pat
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 3: got a bear and I didn't. And there's a silence.
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 3: He says, well, we can't run that story. I said, well,
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 3: think about it. You know, it's it's a fun story.
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 3: What is Pat right? He said? Zumble was after that
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 3: Doug fur, that trophy Doug fur, and he waited for
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 3: that bear to walk around behind it to present a
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 3: good silhouette, and he fired and he got the fur.
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 3: But that's just Pat, you know. He golly. We used
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 3: to do a stand up act for the Elk Foundation
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 3: on stage and he tells his famous deer on a
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 3: bicycle story. People, I saw one guy fall off his chair.
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 3: He was laughing. So, no, wonder what the hell am
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 3: I doing up here with Pat McManus. You know, we
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 3: were close friends and and uh, but all I do
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 3: is tell some stories. I didn't try to get funny,
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 3: but he was. Yeah, because that guy, man, he was hilarious,
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 3: but he wasn't really funny in person.
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 1: You know, that's a weird deal about real funny People's
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: the funniest people aren't funny in person. Yeah, yeah, they
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: don't have they run, they run out of energy, a
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 1: little bit of that. Yeah, the funniest, funniest people performers
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: aren't funny in person. And sometimes the funniest people in
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: person aren't funny and performers.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you're right.
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 2: That's a weird deal. Man. So when you're hanging out
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: with them, he's not just cracking jokes left and right.
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 2: Was that? What when you're.
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: Hanging out with Patrick McManus. He's not just cracking jokes
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: left and right when you're driving down the road.
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 3: No, we just we just, I don't know. We talk
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 3: about the magazine, you know, and the jerks we know,
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 3: and one.
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 2: Do you guys know a lot of jerks?
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah. Some of the editors were they're off
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 3: from New York, in New Jersey and Connecticut, you know,
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 3: so were you? Yeah? Yeah, but I took off out
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 3: west and I started hunting at a young age. Those
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 3: guys never got it, got it, got it?
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 3: But uh, Pat was the kind of guy where a
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 3: stranger could walk up to him and he started talking
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 3: to him, and so you want to go to lunch
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 3: with us? I mean, he was that kind of guy.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 2: M hm.
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 3: But one of one of my greatest articles was when
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 3: Pat died. The editors asked me to write a tribute
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 3: to him on his back page and out.
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 2: Door, to take his column yeah.
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 3: And write about him. That was fun.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that guy was funny man.
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, he saw so many books, some of
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 3: them and made the New York Times bestseller lists, you know,
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 3: and m hm, and uh he also had someone do
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 3: a play. I didn't know that, especially around Montana and Idaho.
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 3: He'd actually impersonate Pat and uh oh really yeah, Pat
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 3: wasn't there, but he impersonated him and they did a
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 3: great show. But Pat could make anybody laugh, even even
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 3: the wives that didn't hunt. You know, he like he
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 3: right about backing up a trailer a whole column, make it,
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 3: make it funny as hell. One time. Yeah, he actually
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 3: started with Field and Stream and Claire Conley stole him
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 3: away from Field and Stream got out out there like well.
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 3: Pat told me one time an editor called and said,
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 3: the artist wants to know what your next column is
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 3: going to be about so he can start working on it.
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 3: Pat had no idea. He said, it's about a box.
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 3: He said, okay, what kind of box? He said, A
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 3: green box? A green box?
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 2: How big?
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 3: Oh? Not as big as a coffin. Okay, So they
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 3: went with that. He had no idea what and he
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 3: wrote about it.
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good, that's good.
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: Well, man, I appreciate you coming on the show and
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: taking the time to drive up here.
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 3: I'll tell you I wanted to meet you for a
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 3: long time because I know you are You can tell
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 3: you're so genuinely involved in hunting and fishing, and I
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 3: get so much out of your podcast. You did one
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 3: on CWD recently. I learned a lot of stuff you do. Yeah,
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 3: oh yeah, I saw when you went to North Dakota
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 3: to the Bobcat Sale.
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 2: Learned a lot of stuff from Nevada.
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 3: Oh was that Nevada?
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, sir No.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 3: I really enjoy your stuff, and it's a pleasure to
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 3: meet you and do the podcast. So I appreciate that.
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: You know, I want to share this with people that
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: we met down in Cody, Wyoming, and you gave me
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 1: some smoked trout, and it's great smoke trout.
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 2: I ever really loved it.
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 1: But I wound up they want to be in well
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: traveled smoked trout because I took that I took I
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: had one pack left.
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 2: And I took it to the Bahamas. We brought our
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 2: own food down, Oh my gosh.
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 1: Right, we charted a plane to get out to a
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: remote area, so we brought you know, deer and elk
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: and whatnot. And I threw that smoked trout in there.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: And so we're sitting out there and the Bahamas on
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 1: like the you know, the clean mother fishing grounds, you know,
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 1: all these dead fish on ice, right, and we're sitting
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: around eating that smoke trout and my buddy down there, Yeah,
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 1: he's fished all over the world, you know. Yeah, And
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: we're eating Zumbo's smoked trout and he's just blown away
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 1: how good it is. And he's like, man, how could
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: I make this with something down here? You know what
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: I used down here?
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 3: I didn't tell you this, but I got that right.
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 3: I've been smoking fish all my life, in like since
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 3: my twenties, and I had one of those little little
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 3: cheef smokers, you know, sure, and Lord Jensen, I think
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 3: out of that.
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody, Yeah, that was like the smoker.
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but I never was happy with the with the Brian.
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 3: I just wasn't happy. And I go to Alaska. Man,
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 3: I had such good stuff. And one day I have
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 3: mice fishing at Cody on Buffalo Bolloe Reservoir and there
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 3: was a bunch of old guys there and I didn't
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 3: know we got bs and and one guy said he
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 3: had retired from a meat process and wild meat processing business.
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 3: I said, oh, well, that means I cut up stuff
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 3: and you smoke stuff, right, He said, yeah, yeah. We
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 3: smoked deer hams and pheasants and ducks and does he
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 3: smoked fish too? He said, oh yeah. I says, now
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 3: that you're retired, could I get your brine recipe? Because
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 3: this guy's a pro. He says, Wait a minute. He
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 3: goes up to his truck and he's got a package
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 3: of smoke drott. He gives it to me and I said,
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 3: holy smokes, I haven't looking for this all my life.
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 3: So I didn't do it. I just got that from him.
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 2: Are you willing to share?
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 2: Tell people right now. Okay, lay it out.
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 3: Two cups of brown sugar, half a cup of white sugar,
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 3: and one cup of tender.
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 2: Quick people, Smortan's Tender Quick.
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 3: Tender Quick.
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 1: If you want to make, like, if you want to
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 1: make your own like corn meat, this is like the
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 1: quick and easy way of doing it.
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 2: That product. I buy that product. I order that shit
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 2: on Amazon. Yeah. Yeah, because it's hard to find.
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I found it in Alberson's and Cody it's
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 3: it's it's made by Morton Morton Salt yep. And it
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 3: comes in a blue bag, maybe a two pound bag,
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 3: but it's actually a meat cure. It's got a sodium
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 3: nitrate and nitrate. So I've actually sent smoked fish across
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 3: the country, and you know, it takes four or five
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 3: days and it's warm and it's it's okay because.
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you take it down to the Bahamas, dude.
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, but anyway, I
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 3: put it on dry yep, take your flase, take the
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 3: flies skin on. Of course, I'm going to smoke them
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 3: and just lay them in a tub and just keep
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 3: sprinkling that that mixture on them. And then and as
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 3: soon it hits the cold fish, it turns to liquid.
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 3: It looks just like maple syrup.
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 2: Ye starts drawing a moisture out.
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I let them. I let them soak for about
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 3: nine hours. Then they rid them off in cold water.
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: I like how you take your own chains on. You
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: cut your own wood chips for your smoke. Yeah, just
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: pick your saw cuttings.
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 2: You ever rip it length wise to get bigger cuttings.
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, you get those big.
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 2: Big, big curl cues.
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah. But what I did is I took I had
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 3: a friend in an outfit everybody in Montana Billy stocked.
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 3: Billy Stocked, and he lived in the Wise River, and
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 3: he had a chainsaw and he put vegetable oil in it,
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 3: and he cut his out.
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 2: So he had food grade chips.
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's what I did. I had a saw
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 3: and I put take on the old oil out and
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 3: put the vegetable oil. So so when you're cutting the wood,
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 3: you didn't have oil resident in the wood. You know.
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good move Maneh.
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 2: We'll get masked. So much.
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 1: Appreciate you coming out. It's it's a real honor to me.
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: It's honor to the show.
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 2: They have you on.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 3: Thank you, sir. I really appreciate it.
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 2: Everybody, Jim's Umbo, thanks man.
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 3: Thank you.