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We Finally Watch Silence Of The Lambs And Get Pulled In · Critique-Opolis

0:24
SPEAKER_00: Can you believe it?
0:26
SPEAKER_00: It's finally a hundred episodes.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: I bet you didn't believe that when we started this we'd actually get here, did you?
0:32
SPEAKER_02: No, it didn't ever occur to me.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: I bet you also you didn't think that I'd ever convince you to watch a movie like this.
0:39
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely not.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: As I mentioned in our previous episode, today we are reviewing an oldie but a goldie Silence of the Lambs.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: This is our hundredth episode.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: We made it and there's been some contention in the Luisa's apartment slash studio for whether or not we're at a hundred.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: But that was my fault for numbering him properly.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: But Buzzsprout says we're at a hundred, so we're treating this as our hundredth episode.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: So congrats to us.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: Feel free to send us accolades and uh and uh and money if you want to.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm not opposed to it.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: So Luisa has always has done our notebook for Silence of the Lambs, and so I gotta tell you, I didn't have a ton of time to read this.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: I read it right before we got started, or portions of it.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: And there have been whole courses taught on this movie, and we're not gonna cover nearly everything in our 40-some odd minutes, but I'll talk.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: I figured I'd start off by talking about some of the things that that this notebook brought up that I'm sure any of our female listeners may say, oh, you're just a guy, you just don't get it.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: But I I think that a number of the sources you pulled did a breakdown, a feminist breakdown of They did, I would agree.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: Feminist breakdown and analysis of the characters.
2:26
SPEAKER_02: And not that I from kind of a one-sided.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just feel like a lot of the the feminist analysis here is I'm sure this comes from men a lot, that it's it's a lot of women just being aghast at the brutality in this movie, just like clutching their pearls and oh, it's brutality against women, to which I, as a moviegoer, respond, it's a horror movie.
3:02
SPEAKER_00: It's a thriller.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: You can unclutch those pearls from like horrible things happen in movies, and they're not real.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: Now, the characters in this movie were based off some pretty horrendous serial killers, but that's why we have art that portrays portions of art like to portray things that have happened in real life.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: So I think a lot of these feminist sounding boards are just excuses for for folks to get up and get up on their stump and and yell really loudly.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't think that it really speaks to the merits of the movie.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: In any event, I'm I have to tell you, I'm I'm not sure where I want to start.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: So I guess we'll start off with it.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: This came out when I was in high school.
3:59
SPEAKER_02: Did you mention the title of the movie?
4:01
SPEAKER_00: Silence of the Lambs.
4:02
SPEAKER_02: Oh.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: That's time three.
4:04
SPEAKER_00: Are you do you need a coffee?
4:07
SPEAKER_02: No.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
4:08
SPEAKER_02: I don't want a coffee.
4:08
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: You want a tea?
4:10
SPEAKER_00: No.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
4:12
SPEAKER_00: So Silence of the Lambs came out in what year was it?
4:17
SPEAKER_00: 91.
4:19
SPEAKER_00: On Valentine's Day.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: On Valentine's Day.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: Tells the story of Clarice Starling, who is a trainee at Quantico in the FBI, and is looking to get into the behavioral sciences program.
4:35
SPEAKER_00: She has a mentor who is Scott Glenn.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: Do you remember his name?
4:43
SPEAKER_00: Matt Krindler.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: Look him up for me.
4:46
SPEAKER_02: Not off the top of my head, yeah.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: Look him up for me.
4:49
SPEAKER_00: And she is tasked from her soon-to-be boss with interviewing a very famous serial killer who is in a psych psych locked up in a secure psychiatric ward named Hannibal Lecter.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: Hannibal Lecter is has the moniker of Hannibal the cannibal because he has he has chosen to eat his victims.
5:20
SPEAKER_00: And a little sidebar, the one he's extremely intelligent, but has the trigger, if you will, the thing that will set him off and uh causes him to pick his prey, is he has a real problem with rudeness.
5:41
SPEAKER_02: Jack Crawford.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: Jack Crawford is the is Starling's boss.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: This is gonna be real tough to break everything down in 30 minutes.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: Just be there's so much going on in this movie from power dynamics, uh, queer and feminism inter interplaying plot points.
6:07
SPEAKER_00: Uh-oh.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: Hold on one sec here.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: Hang tight, we'll be right back.
6:16
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully we're still okay, we're back.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: Got some good news, just needed to uh need to take that.
6:23
SPEAKER_00: Where was I?
6:25
SPEAKER_00: Silence.
6:26
SPEAKER_02: There's all kinds of topics.
6:28
SPEAKER_02: We can't cover the whole thing in our short podcast.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: Psychological things that we're just not equipped to talk about.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: Issues on gender and power dynamics that you and I don't really have the degrees to break down, but we can talk about it from a movie viewer um perspective.
6:57
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
6:59
SPEAKER_00: So how about this?
7:01
SPEAKER_00: We'll give you the we'll we'll break down the plot a little bit without giving away anything.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: But it I've been noticing and I've been telling you that a lot of our listeners are probably half of them are outside of the country.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know how many.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: If and I'm curious if people listen to our show, listen to it because they want to find out about some American movies.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: Like our U.S.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: listeners, we think that everybody knows about these movies if you live in the U.S., but some of our international listeners might not.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: So we'll we'll tell you a little bit about the plot.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: So Hannibal Lecter is played by Anthony Hopkins, and he is locked in this super secure cell, and he is real they Who's our director?
7:49
SPEAKER_00: Jonathan Demi is our director.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: Does an amazing job of portraying even before you meet Lecter, that he is a force to be reckoned with.
8:02
SPEAKER_00: He is a horrific embodiment of villainy.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: He's bitten the face off his nurses.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: He's he ate someone from an orchestra because they they missed uh uh the appropriate notes while playing a concerto.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: He's he in in short, not to be trifled with.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: But when you see him, he's very he's standing almost at attention looking to meet Starling.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: And he's vit like he's very cultured, he's very well spoken, but you can tell that his time in prison is sort of getting to him.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: He's not he doesn't like to be toy with.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that Starling really does that, but she kind of pushes, she offers him some resistance to his quips.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: And her the reason she has been sent to talk to him, to interview him, is there is a serial killer who goes by Buffalo Bill who skins his victims.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: And Jack Crawford believes that star that Lecter may have some insight as to what may be motivating this person and how to identify him.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: So it's so hard to break all this down.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: The man who runs the prison is kind of a is a big ego and likes toying with Lecter.
9:39
SPEAKER_00: And Lecter is consistently non-plussed by uh what's that what's that guy's name?
9:51
SPEAKER_00: Chilton?
9:52
SPEAKER_00: Dr.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: Chilton.
9:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
9:55
SPEAKER_00: There is a portion of the story where we learn about Clarice Clarice Starling being an orphan.
10:06
SPEAKER_00: And the title of our movie comes from something that her father was a marshal, I guess a town marshal, and he died during a robbery.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: He was shot during a robbery.
10:21
SPEAKER_00: And she's sent off to live with an uncle.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: And you're finding this out after Scott Glenn has told her what's his name again?
10:33
SPEAKER_00: The uh Jack Crawford.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: Jack Crawford has told her don't let Hannibal Lecter inside your head.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: Just stick it, like just extract information.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: And as soon as you meet Lecter, you know that's not gonna happen.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: Not at all.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: He's he's his profession was that of a psychologist.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: Which is it makes it the first time I saw this movie, it's so interesting that this guy's a psychologist who's insane, who eats people, who's been locked up, who now the FBI is using in a manipulative manner to find other, another psychopath.
11:12
SPEAKER_00: This other psychopath, Buffalo Bill, has been skinning women and uh leaving them in all over the East Coast and the Midwest.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: So they're not even sure it's the same person.
11:25
SPEAKER_01: Right.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: But Crawford believes that Lecter has a he can get inside this person's mind if he's given the case file.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: And again, as Starling is getting to know Lecter, you find out that it has to it becomes one of their dialogues becomes quid pro quo.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: He tells her things, she tells him things, and she tells him about her her time after her father was killed, that she had to go and live on this a relative's ranch where they they harvested lambs.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: And she woke up one morning to the harvest to the butchering and the the screams they were making.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: She went out to she couldn't save them all, she wasn't big enough, so she just took one and ran away.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: And the rancher was very upset, and then she was sent off to uh was she sent where was she sent after that?
12:25
SPEAKER_00: She was sent off the ranch again, and eventually, like she excelled in school and then got into the FBI training program.
12:32
SPEAKER_02: Maybe like foster care.
12:33
SPEAKER_00: Foster care, that's what it was.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: Um we can we should tell folks a little bit about your app how I had to create a campaign to get you interested in watching this.
12:47
SPEAKER_02: It's not the first time.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: So you're what did you hear about this prior to seeing the movie?
12:56
SPEAKER_02: I just knew that it was a very scary horror movie.
13:07
SPEAKER_02: And it was, I mean, he eats people.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but you you didn't see any you didn't hear anything about the conversations and the psychology and understanding the characters.
13:16
SPEAKER_02: People just said it was hor it was just awful.
13:19
SPEAKER_02: And it was just like really bad and like you didn't want to see it ever.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, okay, well and I guess I'll never watch that movie.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: This is what was amazing to me, is I showed her the what's the most interesting part about this movie is the dialogue between Anthony Hopkins and um Jodie Foster.
13:41
SPEAKER_00: They they have outstanding chemistry.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: You even find out if you listen to interviews later that she was so freaked out by his character that she avoided him for the entirety of filming.
13:53
SPEAKER_00: She was just creeped out by him, like, I don't want to engage him, I don't want to talk.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: They shot the whole movie and they had no rapport outside of the shooting.
14:04
SPEAKER_00: So I had to show you clips of their conversation when he was in the cell with uh bulletproof glass.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: And was I was I right or was I right that it like the conversations just kind of pull you in?
14:23
SPEAKER_00: You're right.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: And the not the another thing your notebook pointed out was his gaze was a real focus of anybody who analyzes this film, is that he had this, he had studied Anthony Hopkins studied animals, how they look at their prey before they attack it.
14:43
SPEAKER_00: And they had a number of close-ups on his face when he was talking to somebody and he didn't blink.
14:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that was by design.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: So if you ever have not seen this movie, and any of the close-ups of Anthony's face, he doesn't blink.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: If you can remember this conversation that we're having right now, you you'll go away from the movie feeling unsettled, and that's why.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: He he can just he just stares right through you.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I wish you could anyone listening could see Louisa's face, right?
15:19
SPEAKER_00: She's just like I never thought I could be okay with being petrified by something and engaged in it at the same time.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: She can't even speak.
15:31
SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm just thinking, like in my reading prior to recording, I read several times about the first time that we meet or see Anthony Hopkins' character and how um Clarice is walking down the hall um to go to his cell and the way the camera um brings him into view.
15:59
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
16:00
SPEAKER_02: Um is just like what what you were just saying about his gaze and his look, and he's just standing there.
16:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: He's standing in the middle of the room, not exactly facing perfectly forward, slightly tilted, with his head tilted because Claris is coming from the side.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: And most people have seen if you've seen anything about this movie, you've seen that entrance shot as he comes into view, and it's just like, oh my god, this this psychopath just stands alone in a room, and you can tell he's you can you f you have this feeling of thank God that thing is contained.
16:38
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
16:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's not yeah, not just between bar just behind bars.
16:42
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot more barriers.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they have to use bulletproof glass with uh ventilation holes to keep them out.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: And the only um It's the only cell like that.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: All the other ones have bars.
16:56
SPEAKER_02: And then like things are passed through a slot, like a male slot, but it's like, does it would you say it has a drawer?
17:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a drawer.
17:05
SPEAKER_02: And like you put one person on one side puts something through and it gets shut, and then it's just like Yeah, and she's given this set of instructions before.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: She puts it, make sure there's no paper clips and anything, no pens, nothing, nothing metallic.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: What else do we have?
17:25
SPEAKER_00: The um oh, so there is while they're tracking down Buffalo Bill, there is a Buffalo Bill snatches somebody.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: And the woman he snatches happens to be the daughter of a U.S.
17:45
SPEAKER_00: senator, a female U.S.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: senator, and part of your dialogue in notebook was about you know the power dynamics that are happening.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: This woman has attained she was a woman and she has attained one of the highest seats in the in office in the country.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: And a little bit more of the feminist write-ups that went into your notebook, I think maybe because notebook kind of compiles all of these things.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: It talked about it's been a lot of time on the impacts of feminism, which maybe as a guy it doesn't really hold much water coming from me about how if I saw that in there, but as a woman, did you feel like that was I you can definitely see the gender and the power dynamics in play, especially when she is in that room full of cops when they're inspecting the body and they're all kind of looking at her.
18:52
SPEAKER_00: She's younger and a woman and and little.
18:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:54
SPEAKER_02: And like she must not know anything.
18:57
SPEAKER_02: Why is she here?
18:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what was this person doing here?
19:00
SPEAKER_02: That was the only time.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't feel like that was the the feminism thing, it was a big overarching element.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: Not at all.
19:06
SPEAKER_02: I would agree.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: I it that was a um, what do you call it, like a surprise to me in reading.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: I could feel like if somebody had an agenda to write that up or to extract that meaning and blow it up, sure it was in there, but I don't think it was the big thing.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: I think the big thing was queer dynamics and how the public views uh homosexual and queer behavior.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: They kind of demonize it in their mind that these people are not subverbient.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: Um they have subversive lifestyles, so they must be into murdering people and murdering women and skinning them alive and that kind of stuff.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: And they put that into a movie and it puts up on a on the big screen that this is how, and it's set in Middle America.
19:59
SPEAKER_00: This is how Middle America, I could understand someone making the argument that this is how Middle America sees these people.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: When Jody Foster makes the point when she's breaking down the psychological profile of Buffalo Bill, he doesn't sound like a transgender, because transgenders are very passive.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: And Hannibal Lecter makes the remark that he doesn't really know what he is.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: He's trying to compensate for this confusion of what he is.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: So he he dresses like a woman and he has applied for uh he Lecter knows who he is.
20:39
SPEAKER_00: Uh this person applies for gender reassignment surgery to three of the hospitals that are offering it at the time, and he's rejected from all of them based on psychological issues.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: So based on that, they're eventually able to track who this person is down.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: But the you remember in the beginning, right after she met with Lecter.
21:05
SPEAKER_02: The team at the FBI is eventually able to draw.
21:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but they they kind of screw it.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: They kind of screw it up.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: But do you remember how Lecter there is a kind of a gross scene when uh Starling is leaving her first meeting with Lecter, it doesn't go well, and one of the other inmates, MIGs, it does something revolting.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: And this is actually to Starling's benefit because it's so revolting it really upsets Dr.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: Lecter.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: He doesn't like rude, crude things.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: And he's like, wait a minute, come back here.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: I I don't I don't want you to have that memory of me, so I'm gonna give give you this gift, this clue, which leads her to this storage place that was clearly rented by Lecter years and years ago.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: And she finds the decapitated head of a person who Lecter did not murder, but was murdered, and Lecter found it and then put it in formaldehyde and tucked it away.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: But, and I remember the first time I saw that, I couldn't figure out who this person is, and what you find out is this head belonged to someone who was the lover or companion.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: Of Buffalo Bill at one time.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: I know it was kind of a rough scene.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: But I do want to, before we go, we haven't even talked about the box office of this movie or production or any of that stuff, but I did want to take a minute to point out I was so for anyone who has seen this movie, if you remember the Great Reveal when Lecter escapes, your like both revulsion and like amazement at that scene was like you just jumped out, you just jumped out of your seat.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: So I won't give this away, but Lecter figures out a way to escape, and his guards are are in big trouble.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: The two guys who are guarding him would and I don't think you had it figured out until they showed it.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: You raised his hand to pull off the oxygen mask, did you?
23:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I definitely.
23:31
SPEAKER_02: You were like, what's going on?
23:32
SPEAKER_00: Where is he?
23:33
SPEAKER_00: Where is he?
23:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: And it's it's gruesome and ingenious all at the same time.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: And I I like had I told you that, had I painted the picture for you without telling you exactly what happens, but if I would have described it as it's an ingenious way to escape and it's totally revolting, you'd have been like, I don't want to see that.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: But when you did see it, you were enthralled.
24:02
SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
24:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:05
SPEAKER_00: So for anybody It was amazing.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was, it was, it was ingenious.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: But that is a little bit further through the middle of the movie, and they transitioned from Lecter's Escape to tracking down Buffalo Bill.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: And Crawford figures out who this person is.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: And I had to read a Wikipedia about it.
24:32
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: Because I I thought that maybe they picked the wrong guy, but they picked the right guy, but they just didn't have a current address for him.
24:42
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, I thought we talked about, yeah.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you and I did, but we didn't talk with the listeners about it.
24:47
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: So they figure out who the guy is, but he's in a different he's in a different.
24:54
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, as watchers of the movie.
24:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh, yeah.
24:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: They tie it to there's uh moths that uh Buffalo Bill shoves in the throats of his victims or the cocoons, the chrysalis he shoves in the moths or in the mouths of his victims, and no one can figure it out.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the movie, when Clarice is trying to interview witnesses of this, the first woman who was killed, you see a moth land on a spool of thread in the house of where she stops to just ask for ask a couple of questions.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: And at that point, you're like, oh my god, it's on.
25:40
SPEAKER_01: That was another scene where you're like, oh, who's at the door?
25:49
SPEAKER_00: The use of night vision in the basement.
25:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:53
SPEAKER_00: Oh, you were on edge.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: It was my favorite.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: I loved that stuff.
26:00
SPEAKER_02: What stuff do you love?
26:01
SPEAKER_00: Just that, like, because the first portion of that scene, they go into what did I do with my glasses?
26:08
SPEAKER_00: Oh, there they are.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: She goes into the basement to chase him down and find the to find the girl who'd been abducted.
26:19
SPEAKER_00: And she finds the girl, but then Bill turns all the lights off.
26:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:26
SPEAKER_00: And you're just on edge because you know he can see her, but not the other way around.
26:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:31
SPEAKER_02: It took me a minute, but yeah, I knew that.
26:34
SPEAKER_00: So, bits and pieces here that I do want to cover from your notebook, struggle for subjectivity.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: Starling is often seen as falling into the subjectivity trap where she adopts masculine standards of being strong, reliable, and professional to survive the male gaze of the patriarchal FBI structure.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: I didn't see that at all.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: I just saw she's a capable woman.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: I just she's just a capable agent.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: That very feminine strength, despite her attempts to perform as a masculine figure, the breakthroughs in her investigation actually stem from her feminine qualities such as empathy, delicate perspective during autopsies, and her polite saving saving uh mentality that earns Hannibal Lecters respect.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: That part I did see.
27:28
SPEAKER_00: You can tell there is this loose fondness, almost almost a crush that develops from Lecter to her.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: And it's eerie.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: Like you can feel there's something there, but they can't quite put it.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you both you recognize that they both understand one another's position in the world.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: Hannibal Lecter, the intellectual monster.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: Lecter represents this, I haven't read this, but I'm looking forward to this.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: Represents a shift in the cinematic portrayal of serial killers.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: Before him, before this film, killers were often claw-handed buggymen.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: Lecter, by contrast, is you did read this?
28:16
SPEAKER_00: Lector, by contrast, is studied as a highly intelligent individual with impeccable manners, mentor, and gaysant.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: In his interactions with Starling, he serves like a father-like figure who interrogates her past to help her silence her trauma.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: Queer masculinity, some analysis view lecturer through the lens of queer masculinity, noting how his refined taste and specialized knowledge differentiate him from traditional heteronormative male roles.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: I always find that funny that anyone who has manners and good taste in literature and in film it can it's easy to portray them as gay for like almost like masculinity is associated with crudeness.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for your input.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't think she I don't think our Louisa has a lot to say here just because of the I like I think even two weeks after viewing this movie, you're still kind of struggling with the fact that you liked it.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: She said to me off mic, I love this movie.
29:33
SPEAKER_00: Those were those were your words.
29:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, would you I said that?
29:37
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
29:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well.
29:40
SPEAKER_00: And then I said, would you repeat that please?
29:43
SPEAKER_02: It was it was so good.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: Intertwined metamorphosis.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: The film's timeline is viewed as an intertwined metamorphosis between Starling and Bill, where Starling succeeds in her transform in her excuse me, in her transformation through legal power, Bill fails because he tries to establish his subjectivity through criminal delusion.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: Bill is trying to make a skin suit from women's skin to to dress up as a woman because he can't fully transition to a woman, but that's not even really his he's not a true transsexual.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: And because of this and not being able to identify personally what he is, he feels a tremendous amount of rage, which is where his violent tendencies come from.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to see what else you have here in the studio in the mind map that would be of interest about some of the other characters.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: Ooh, character studies.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: Who else do we got?
30:50
SPEAKER_00: We've got Dr.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: or Senator Ruth Martin, who I don't know that I'm gonna I want to talk too much about her because she plays such a small role.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: Let's see.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: Buffalo Bill.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: Here we go.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: Failed transformation and power.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to use this person what his character's actual name is because it'll give it away if you haven't seen the movie yet.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: But Buffalo Bill is studied as a symbol of failed transformation.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: He has a thirst for power.
31:27
SPEAKER_00: His desire for gender reassignment is interrupted excuse me, interpreted not as a true transsexual identity, but as a thirst for power he associates with his abusive stepmother.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: He treats women as prey or tools to complete his own transformation, reflecting a primitive law of the jungle logic.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: A symbolic double.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: Are you falling asleep on me?
31:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a little bit.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't believe it.
31:59
SPEAKER_00: You gotta engage me a little bit more here.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: People are gonna think I'm making this up and you didn't you hated it.
32:06
unknown: Okay.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: It's like I made you see Friday the 13th or something.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: You know what, that is something I what was there a particular character that had a and this isn't the kind of question I would normally ask, but what about this movie?
32:24
SPEAKER_00: And don't say all of it.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: Was there any component of this movie that really kind of turned the corner for you?
32:37
SPEAKER_00: Or really engaged you?
32:44
SPEAKER_00: I can tell you for me, it was meeting Lecter and trying to understand that he li while he was an antagonist to the movie, he wasn't the one they were trying to catch.
32:55
SPEAKER_00: They were using an insane person to catch an insane person.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would agree with that too.
33:02
SPEAKER_02: But I also think that um it was the conversations between the two main characters.
33:10
SPEAKER_02: Because I really like I don't like bloody and gory, I don't like horror, I don't but I like like I like psychological and I like thriller and I like um conversation between the two people, I guess, and like relationships.
33:32
SPEAKER_02: Um when we started to think about watching this movie, um you showed me some clips, and that's kind of how I got hooked.
33:44
SPEAKER_02: Because I think if that like really helps me.
33:50
SPEAKER_02: Um instead of just like jumping into a movie that I'm really like unsure about, I need like a pre like a preview.
33:58
SPEAKER_02: And it's not a preview, but it's like a preamble, I guess.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's really you gotta remember when people talk about movies, they're talking about the most sensational parts because they're relaying a story.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: So the whole movie was not they found Erica Bimmels at the bottom of a river, and you know, pieces of her skin were gone, or you know, what he did to the cops on his way out of that wasn't the whole movie, that was just like little sections.
34:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: But the real movie is the relationship in trying how to extract information between all characters who are flawed.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: They all have these issues that you're trying to understand, and each one is trying to navigate for their own ends.
34:47
SPEAKER_02: I just think it's like also set up so well.
34:50
SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, there is it's not at all um um a profession that I would like to be in or near.
35:03
SPEAKER_02: But like, I mean, there is like a fascination with people who do who like work in the FBI and people who investigate crime and um okay, yeah, and so um, and then to have the movie open the way it did with Jody Foster's character like training and working really hard, and I mean there's like a draw to that, and then it goes from there into something that I mean obviously I didn't see coming at all.
35:40
SPEAKER_02: Um I just it like pulls you in.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: That's really the interesting part about when someone details a movie to you that the image you create in your mind and what it is in actuality are totally can often be totally different.
35:58
SPEAKER_02: Very true.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: I remember when I saw I heard when Slum Dog Millionaire came out, everybody I talked to was like, this movie's amazing.
36:06
SPEAKER_00: And I had told my folks that and they saw it and they didn't like it.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: And my folks were very wonder white bred, you know.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: I think for them the entire movie was the kid jumping into the the porta potty to see that Indian movie star.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: They were like my stepmother wouldn't shut up about it.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: It was like, oh, it's so gross.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you you know that was like three minutes in the movie.
36:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the entire like hour, two-hour movie, yeah.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: And that that that's really kind of how I see Silence of the Lambs, and that there is a they made a number of movies around it.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: Manhunter came first, and Manhunter was remade after this as Red Dragon, but between those, between Silence and Red Dragon came Hannibal, which sort of got panned, but I thought it was a great movie, actually.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: We really gotta watch that because it takes place, half of it takes place in Florence, which you would love.
37:07
SPEAKER_02: I would love that.
37:09
SPEAKER_02: I would love that.
37:12
SPEAKER_02: So it's just fascinating to me.
37:16
SPEAKER_02: Like, this movie that people are always like, mmm.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: They pointed out as being like, oh, it's one of the books, but it won how many Academy Awards have it?
37:27
SPEAKER_02: Five that year, and it won all of the best, like the big awards.
37:32
SPEAKER_02: You know what the thing is, is when this And that's just at the Academy Awards, that's not other awards.
37:36
SPEAKER_02: It like did huge.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: You don't hear about giant movies coming out in February.
37:42
SPEAKER_00: That's where f movies from the studio system go to die.
37:45
SPEAKER_00: And this one this one crushed in '91.
37:50
SPEAKER_02: It also is the only horror movie to ever win um a best picture award.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't even have to lead with that.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, here, just look at this clip.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think I told you what it was when we were like, just like, what is this?
38:07
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, this is Silence of the Lambs.
38:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just watch this, and that's like it pulled me in.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: I'm fascinated.
38:12
SPEAKER_02: Like, all right, didn't take.
38:16
SPEAKER_02: And there were times too.
38:17
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I will say, because for not being into blood and gore and horror, there were times when I like put my blanket over my head or whatever and didn't watch.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: But remember we won I had you watch, okay, this is what he's doing to the cop.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: But like, I know it's a little rough, but like he transforms because he's this well put together manners are impeccable psychologist, but he beats a cop to death with his own baton, and like just look at his face.
38:52
SPEAKER_00: He he becomes an animal.
38:55
SPEAKER_00: And aside from the rawness of it, did did you see what I was talking about?
39:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, they and I know they played with the he almost had like a growl when he was doing it.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, this is you can't even recognize this is the same person.
39:12
SPEAKER_00: He snaps right right when the uh, the whimpering cop who's outside of the cage, you know, when he picks up the little knife, his demeanor changes back to one of cordial and and refined.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: I personally that's what I picked up.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, that is the heart of a psychopath, someone who can flip back and forth.
39:41
SPEAKER_00: What was that what was that guy's name I kept making the joke about last week?
39:49
SPEAKER_00: Embridge?
39:50
SPEAKER_00: Pembridge.
39:52
SPEAKER_02: I don't remember who.
39:56
SPEAKER_00: What is that guy's name?
39:59
SPEAKER_00: That's Jim Pembridge! That's Jim Pembridge, goddammit, talk to him.
40:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't You remember when they they find him?
40:08
SPEAKER_00: When they find when they and they call the ambulance, and the one officer is trying to talk to him.
40:13
SPEAKER_00: He's like, What do I say?
40:15
SPEAKER_00: And the guy with the mustache is like, that's Jim Pembridge! Talk to him, damn it! We're gonna have to watch this scene again as much as you don't want to if you don't remember.
40:25
SPEAKER_02: No, I do remember.
40:26
SPEAKER_02: It just took me a few minutes.
40:27
SPEAKER_02: I do remember now.
40:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I thought you were talking about something different.
40:31
SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, I remember.
40:34
SPEAKER_00: Trying to see what else do we have here in terms of it's got more stuff about Senator Ruth Martin.
40:41
SPEAKER_00: Um failed transformation of Buffalo Bill, symbolic double.
40:47
SPEAKER_00: Bill serves as a thematic double to Starling.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: Both characters experience childhood trauma and seek power to change their status while Starling succeeds through legal means.
40:57
SPEAKER_00: Bill fails because his attempts to establish rules independent, he attempts to establish rules independent of social morals.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: Bill was a mess.
41:10
SPEAKER_00: That's all I'm saying.
41:11
SPEAKER_02: That's yeah, putting it lightly.
41:14
SPEAKER_00: Let's see.
41:17
SPEAKER_00: There's an item here in your mind map about queer cinema context.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: Tom Harrison creation.
41:25
SPEAKER_00: Who is Tom Harris?
41:27
SPEAKER_02: The author of the book.
41:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: Guess I should have known that before I did a podcast about one of his greatest works, but let's see.
41:37
SPEAKER_02: I just learned it, don't worry.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: Tom Harris's insistence on reality-based approach, the creative process that creates characters as independent entities, and his own unease with his creations.
41:51
SPEAKER_00: Philosophy of nothing is made up.
41:53
SPEAKER_00: Harris has famously stated, I don't think I've ever made up anything.
41:58
SPEAKER_00: And the philosophy that shapes the chilling realism of his work.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: Keen observation, journalistic roots, real-world inspiration.
42:09
SPEAKER_00: The character of Hannibal Lecter was inspired by a prison doctor Harris met during a magazine assignment in northern Mexico.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: Similarly, the character of Jack Crawford is based on real-life FBI profiler John Douglas.
42:22
SPEAKER_00: I do know that Buffalo Bill was an amalgamation of a number of serial killers, including Ed Gean, who was the insane guy out in the 40s or 50s in Wisconsin, who he was brutalized by this by his mother, and he he made skin suits of people.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, hit the number.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: He made skin suits of people.
42:53
SPEAKER_00: Um are you kidding me?
42:58
SPEAKER_00: He harvested people's skins and murdered a couple people.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to think of who.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: Oh, the um, not the zodiac killer, but oh, I can't remember this guy's name.
43:11
SPEAKER_00: There was a there was two others that he kind of smashed into Buffalo Bill.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: There was um, oh I don't I'm not gonna try and recall this guy's name, but there was a a coed killer who was very tall.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: And they did a clip about him in that movie I or that show I told you about uh Mind Hunters.
43:39
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
43:41
SPEAKER_00: So Buffalo Bill, not exactly one person, it's kind of a glue of of three or four different serial killers.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: Maybe the Green River killer, or Ted Bundy, I think, was one of them.
43:53
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I think so.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: Because he murdered exclusively women, I believe.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: Maybe one guy, but exclusively, pretty much exclusively women.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: So this is a hundred.
44:07
SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
44:10
SPEAKER_02: Kind of amazing.
44:11
SPEAKER_02: I can't believe it.
44:14
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it took us what a few years.
44:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but we weren't consistent about it, so anyone listening.
44:20
SPEAKER_02: No, I'm not like putting a timer on it or anything like that.
44:22
SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying, like, in general.
44:25
SPEAKER_02: When we it I mean, at least the way I look at it when we started, we just thought, oh, this would be fun to do.
44:29
SPEAKER_02: We both like movies, we both have seen a lot of movies that the other hasn't seen.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: New movies are also coming out all the time, like it just You know, along with movies, one that did a lot that of all of our in the past hundred, the review we did on Soft White Underbelly, which wasn't a movie.
44:51
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I loved, yeah.
44:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we gotta we gotta find some other like shorts or independent channels that are engaging that aren't movies.
45:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm wondering if that would enrapture people a little bit.
45:07
SPEAKER_00: But with we have such a long list of things we gotta cover that we'll get to it, just give us time.
45:15
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's it.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: We're over the 45 mark.
45:19
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
45:20
SPEAKER_00: So hugs and kisses, we'll be back to you in a week with something else.
45:23
SPEAKER_02: You should watch this movie.
45:24
SPEAKER_02: Don't don't don't just like Don't sleep on silence.
45:27
SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, it's so gross.
45:29
SPEAKER_02: No, I don't want to watch Silence of the Lambs.
45:31
SPEAKER_02: The movie is called No.
45:32
SPEAKER_02: You should give it a chance.
45:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, if not a chance, you should watch it.
45:37
SPEAKER_02: The whole thing.
45:40
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say something else, but we've I don't have a recipe today.
45:45
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
45:46
SPEAKER_00: I know none of you tune in to find that.
45:48
SPEAKER_00: But some it's you know what?
45:49
SPEAKER_00: It's the lucky charm, it's the it's the hidden gem.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's there and sometimes it's not.
45:54
SPEAKER_00: Will it be next week?
45:56
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
45:57
SPEAKER_00: We'll see.
45:58
SPEAKER_00: But we gotta pick a movie first.
46:02
SPEAKER_00: Hugs and kisses, we'll talk soon.
46:09
SPEAKER_00: Two buttons I gotta hit.
46:10
SPEAKER_00: I can't even hit the right one.
46:12
SPEAKER_00: Unbelievable.