Latest / Coffee People Podcast / S6:E4 - Coffee Smarter: Coffee Trees and Tangents.

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S6:E4 - Coffee Smarter: Coffee Trees and Tangents. · Coffee People Podcast

0:09
Hey, good morning everyone. Welcome to season six episode,
0:13
four of the roast West Coast coffee podcast.
0:17
I'm Ryan Walton. This is the show where I bring
0:19
you the stories of coffee professionals entrepreneurship
0:22
and coffee education. Today, we're getting coffee
0:25
smarter. Once again, with Jared Hales.
0:28
He is the green coffee. Buyer and co-founder of Hosea
0:32
coffee source-based just north of this show.
0:34
In Anaheim, California. This is Jared's fifth or sixth
0:38
appearance on the show and you'll be happy to know that
0:41
after our chat last week about how this has been an entirely
0:44
virtual relationship. We actually did get together for
0:47
coffee this week. The show started during covid
0:50
and as such, I've had quite a few conversations with people.
0:54
Even repeat guests like Jared without ever actually meeting
0:57
them in real life. I'm hoping that will change.
1:01
If you want even more coffee, education than you're already
1:04
getting from this show. Jared also hosts classes on
1:07
coffee history, beginning roasting and flavor profiling.
1:10
All of the details are on Hosea. Coffee.com or follow at Hosea
1:15
coffee on Instagram, where they announced all of their upcoming
1:18
class, openings. Those will be linked in the
1:20
show's notes. Today, Jared and I start with a
1:23
question about the coffee tree and our conversation very
1:26
quickly, evolves into world. The impacts on coffee production
1:30
and changes in supply chain Logistics, it's tangents as
1:33
usual. So you should probably fill that
1:36
coffee mode right to the top because it is time for this
1:40
coffee smarter session with Jared Hales, co-founder of
1:44
Hosea, coffee source. But what I did notice is and I
2:00
think this is a compliment just to the Southern California area
2:03
as well. You know, where I am most of the
2:05
time is I didn't necessarily go to a shop somewhere else in the
2:11
world and in the US on the strip and say, oh, this is better than
2:15
what we have. I feel like I'm Regularly
2:17
drinking some of the best coffee that I have experienced.
2:21
I mean, it's always noticeable and there was definitely some
2:25
Olympia coffee in particular, I had at a shop in Burien
2:28
Washington, where I literally took a drink 100.
2:31
Yeah, that's, that's what I've been waiting for, you know, this
2:34
week. But, I definitely made me really
2:37
appreciate how lucky I am to live, where I do and just have,
2:40
you know, walk down the street and have great coffee all the
2:42
time. Right comes with the rent.
2:49
I thought that was just that we don't have heat or air
2:51
conditioning. So I should welcome you back to
2:56
the show. I'm keeping that in.
2:58
I'm going to leave that part. Welcome back to roast West Coast
3:00
Jared of his Saya coffee Source. Last week we talked about coffee
3:04
spoons kind of burned right through it.
3:06
It's a spoon holds liquid use it to serve coffee, easy peasy.
3:11
I want to get a little bit more complicated this week and talk a
3:16
little bit about coffee trees. And in particular, how long does
3:21
it take for a coffee tree to grow?
3:23
And Which is an answer I already know because I've talked to some
3:27
coffee Farmers, but a question I never asked them was once.
3:30
It is grown once it's mature. How long does that tree produced
3:35
before it needs to be replanted as a produce every year?
3:40
How many times? I mean, any any sort of
3:43
background on coffee trees, just to get a better idea of what
3:47
farmers are dealing with as far as producing the coffee beans
3:52
that they've already pre-sold. Sure, yeah, thanks for the
3:57
opportunity to talk about it. So diving right in, you know,
4:03
the the time between planting and producing kind of ranges
4:09
depending on the variety of the coffee plant and Typically
4:15
that's between two and four years after planting.
4:18
Before the coffee, is actually producing the newer varieties.
4:23
Tend to produce in that two-year range where the older more
4:27
traditional varieties tend to take up to four years.
4:32
Is that? Because we have hybridized
4:35
coffee plants. To do that faster?
4:37
Or is that? Because of a change in the
4:39
environment somehow. Well that is that is part of the
4:43
kind of human influence on the coffee plant, as you know, labs
4:49
and research groups, try to breed new varieties.
4:55
The focus is really on productivity, you know,
5:00
resiliency to climate change and other external pressure as well
5:05
as quality potential, we call it.
5:07
So it's not necessarily saying that it's going to be good.
5:11
It but it has the potential to taste good.
5:14
So these things are kind of all being played with to create.
5:19
I don't know the perfect coffee plant.
5:22
You know, that produces a lot very easily and taste good as
5:26
well. But that's kind of like, you
5:29
know, it's never, it's never to be achieved fully I think, but
5:35
it does get closer and closer as research continues on what
5:42
you're saying. And so then after that time, you
5:44
know, let's say it's three years since right in the middle there
5:47
that tree has grown its producing its first batch of
5:50
cherries. You know, then what you know is
5:53
that it does that tree done or does it continue on, you know,
5:57
for a life span, most countries will have one Harvest per year
6:02
and that tree can easily produce for 50 years.
6:08
I mean, I visited Some Farms where they've had trees They
6:12
tell me, they believe to be 80 to 100 years old still
6:15
producing. What happens is after, you know,
6:19
maybe I get a different answer from everyone and I'm sure it
6:23
has to do with the type of plant again, but it seems like after
6:28
10 to 20 years, the productivity drops in the tree, it doesn't
6:35
necessarily drop in quality but it just doesn't produce as many
6:39
coffee cherries, you know, So not as many beans at the end of
6:43
the day. So some Farms will actually they
6:48
may do a couple of things, it may stump the plant so they'll
6:52
cut the tree all the way down to the stump and New Growth Will
6:57
Spring out of that and they may do that every 8 to 12 years or
7:02
so. And they may do that a couple of
7:04
times in the trees life before they rip out the plant and
7:08
totally replace it, you know, but that's still shutting.
7:11
Down production for potentially another two to four years so
7:15
that can be a costly investment and usually that's done on like
7:19
a rotating kind of method. So you may you may stump five
7:23
percent of the plants on the farm.
7:26
So that's not totally impacting your overall yields.
7:30
But once it does get that old, it's common practice to rip out
7:35
the tree when when the production kind of slows down
7:38
and gets old. I wonder if that production
7:42
slowdown is in part due to the fact that an older tree has
7:47
become one more efficient. But two, if a tree has survived
7:50
so long, the trees goal of reproducing becomes less because
7:55
their assumption is that some of those cherries have fallen and
7:58
reproduced, you know, looking at it from the trees perspective,
8:00
not a human perspective, right? Hard to answer that, but good
8:04
point. Good point.
8:06
You haven't spoken to a tree recently to ask, no, but it is
8:13
interesting to think about like, what, why does it tree died in
8:18
general? Why do some trees live?
8:21
I mean, some trees are thousands years old, right, and some live
8:25
a decade, you know? Sure, trees are just fascinating
8:30
creatures in general. There's some really Great books.
8:33
The Secret Life of trees is one. I'd recommend for anyone who
8:36
wants to learn about trees and just how they are connected to
8:41
each other. And to us, I think one thing
8:44
that that book in particular taught me about about trees, but
8:48
just about humans also, is, is that we don't, we generally look
8:53
at the world from the perspective of what benefits
8:55
humans as opposed to how we interact with other species that
9:00
maybe don't have such obvious methods of Say a tree.
9:04
And I'm not trying to go and say, oh, like we should be
9:07
hugging, you know, I hug trees because trees are great and I
9:09
think they're awesome. I'm not saying we don't have to
9:11
do that. I'm just saying that there are
9:13
more connecting points between humans and plants and animals
9:17
than maybe we realize, but we only see them through one sort
9:20
of lens as a as a culture as a species.
9:24
I guess. I'm not sure exactly if I'm
9:25
saying that, right, but that actually gives me leads me to my
9:29
next question, which is on the topic of coffee trees.
9:32
He's one is treat the right term.
9:34
Is it a tree or a bush? It's a tree, right?
9:37
I think. Technically it's a shrug and I
9:43
wouldn't know enough about bought me to identify the
9:47
reasons but I don't think it's classified as a tree.
9:50
I vaguely recall. Looking up the difference
9:53
between a shrub in a bush and I'm gonna have to do that again.
9:57
But my question is, what is the difference?
9:59
These are two terms that I hear you hear a lot it.
10:02
Between a varietal and a cultivar.
10:07
So in coffee, we kind of use them incorrectly for example,
10:15
any, okay? So the basic definition, a
10:18
cultivar is a, I guess I want to use the word variety, just out
10:25
of habit. But a type of coffee plant that
10:29
is human-made. So human crossbreeding, develops
10:35
cultivars. Where varieties are actually
10:39
genetic mutations that happen naturally in the plant.
10:43
So, there's already some diversity in the plant just
10:46
through mutation, but cultivar is the, is the human element.
10:52
That's actually cross. Pollinating crossbreeding these
10:56
plants to yield new cultivars. So, In reality, most of the
11:03
coffee that we drink, you know, that has a label variety on.
11:09
It is probably a cultivar interesting, even though we call
11:13
them varieties, but coffee people are botanist, you know,
11:19
I'm certainly not and late language is funny.
11:22
Certainly very interesting. I don't, I don't always just do
11:29
this, but I was just thinking about it.
11:31
Last time I asked you about, or you mentioned that you were
11:34
drinking a coffee from Twin lens in Orange County.
11:36
And I'm just wondering if there's any Roasters that who
11:39
say, as working with now that you think are doing some
11:41
interesting things or just want to, you know, make people a
11:44
little bit more aware of, you know?
11:45
Maybe we haven't heard it. Yeah, I've been working with
11:48
comes in mind. Today is arcade, Coffee Roasters
11:52
and Riverside, California. And, you know, not only are they
11:58
really picky with the coffee's that they're offering to their
12:03
customers and their and their subscription, you know,
12:06
customers. But they also just got shot out
12:11
by l.a. times for being the best Bakehouse.
12:14
Number one, Bakehouse, and number one cost.
12:16
Coffee House in the Inland Empire, so pretty pretty awesome
12:21
to kind of see those efforts recognized and I should note
12:25
that those are not necessarily call-outs for their coffee, but
12:31
kind of on a broader scale like the Bakehouse, right?
12:34
It's more about their whole food, menu, Coffee menu,
12:38
experience everything. So pretty stoked to be to be
12:42
providing those guys with some of their green coffee, do you?
12:48
Like it when your clients are pickier with the products that
12:52
you're offering them. And I can see it going both
12:54
ways. Yes, because they care but also,
12:57
like, just trust me, I'm the green coffee proof.
13:00
Take what I give you, you know, is that a good thing or how does
13:03
that relationship work? When you have a client?
13:05
Who is a little bit more like, hey, this is what I need.
13:08
This is what I want. This is the quality level.
13:10
I'm looking for, I would like it, it's different.
13:14
I kind of have both Spectrum, so Some Roasters that we work with.
13:20
I almost have become like, their staff sourcing person if you
13:27
know what I mean. Like full trust.
13:29
Whatever I put in front of them, they'll probably accept.
13:33
And I like that too, but that's a lot of pressure, right?
13:39
So so it is a little bit more stressful even though it seems
13:42
like it's, I don't know, like, the all the chains are off but
13:46
it Be stressful because if it doesn't succeed in their shop or
13:50
on their website or something, I feel a level of responsibility
13:55
and then on the other end there's the very picky roaster,
13:58
right? Who knows exactly what they want
14:01
and those are challenging in another way.
14:06
I have to be very mindful of what they're asking for and only
14:10
put in front of them what what that is.
14:14
And so also finding that coffee. E from producers and Farms, you
14:18
know, and sometimes that process could take, it can take a whole
14:23
cycle, like a whole year or longer to find that coffee.
14:28
But those are, those are almost easier when you find it, you
14:32
know what I mean? Because it's a perfect match and
14:36
it's very clear what the expectations are.
14:39
And so if you can find the coffee for that roaster, then it
14:44
just clicks and those Roasters usually.
14:47
You want that coffee on a recurring basis and so, you
14:51
know, it's it's easy that way, but I don't, I wouldn't say I
14:56
prefer one type over the other, probably a mix is better.
15:01
I know that we've talked in the past about how you like to
15:06
create longer term relationships.
15:08
With coffee companies that are buying your green coffee that
15:10
you're sourcing for, right? During the last three years
15:15
Supply chains have been all sorts of Of screwy and I think
15:19
that that might have been a little bit more difficult
15:21
because in some cases, people are just trying to get what they
15:23
need in. Have you noticed a change in the
15:26
supply change for the better or for the worse or for the same
15:30
over, the say, the last, the last summer?
15:32
You know, this we're in 2022. Obviously we were seeing all
15:37
kinds of new, you know, ships backed up from LA to San Diego
15:41
at one point or, you know, outside ports.
15:43
We're not seeing that in the news anymore, have things
15:45
actually gotten better, or have we Just stop talking about it.
15:51
A little bit of both. We've definitely definitely the
15:54
shock has worn off. I think so people are talking
15:58
about these things a little bit less even though they're not
16:01
necessarily gone. At the same time, things have
16:06
improved a little bit. I have not shipped coffee to the
16:11
hometown ports you know LA and Long Beach since last August and
16:17
we just shipped our first coffee there.
16:20
It's posed to arrive next week so we'll see how long it takes
16:26
to go through the process of getting the container off the
16:29
ship. But you know, just the fact that
16:31
we were even able to find a boat going to, California was a good
16:36
sign for me because we've been shipping a lot to Texas and even
16:41
east coast and then railing which is quite expensive.
16:46
Rail is being affected just as much as anything else.
16:50
Wow. Wow.
16:51
Yeah, so and that has been cheaper option and faster than
16:57
going to California but the ports here LA and Long Beach,
17:01
they handle. I think the number is about 30%
17:04
of the US Imports. So it's a very critical port and
17:11
I think that's why it just got to be so backed up.
17:16
That's really interesting and I want to clarify for anyone
17:18
listening. When you say you ship to, you're
17:20
talking about, it's being shipped from origin to your act.
17:24
Correct. You're the one who's just
17:26
managing that process of getting it to you.
17:29
I'm wondering about you just said something about ships.
17:32
That made me stop for a moment. How do you find a ship to put
17:37
your container on? Is there like an app?
17:39
It's like ships. You can just get matched up with
17:44
like Tinder or something. This is basically, it's
17:46
basically a broker system of Brokers, you know, they have
17:51
negotiated rates with Shipping Lines.
17:54
So you see, you know, you see those Shipping Lines all the
17:56
time, like mirrors can MSC, right?
18:00
You might see that printable out of a container.
18:02
So you kind of compare rates between different shipping lines
18:07
and what is available. Now, the problem over the last
18:12
year is that nothing seems to be It's kind of like, you take what
18:17
you can get. We're now there's a little bit
18:19
more shopping. You know what I mean?
18:21
Like, a little bit more competition in the rates, which
18:27
is good, but it's still, it's definitely still out of whack.
18:31
You know, depending on the country, we're still paying
18:34
record Freight rates where other countries are less expensive
18:39
this year. So it's kind of like a mixed bag
18:43
and really depends on where the container is coming from and
18:47
what Shipping Lines are available to bring in here.
18:51
Sure. And I'm assuming it depends on
18:53
all a host of other factors like the cost of gas and oil and time
18:57
of year and demand and all that stuff, you know?
19:00
I just drove. I mentioned, I drove around the
19:01
country and of course, the second we got back, they started
19:04
announcing how gas prices were coming down.
19:06
But you know, I've done this same trip several times and, you
19:11
know, for as little as three hundred dollars in gas back,
19:14
several years ago and this year I think we spent around 1200
19:18
ingredients to make the same trip which is a lot of money.
19:21
But also I noticed in a very similar thing.
19:24
You know, gas is more expensive here where I am now in
19:27
California and less expensive in the Midwest and You know,
19:31
through the northern states and more expensive again when we hit
19:34
Vancouver Canada, but that's kind of true of coffee to I've
19:38
noticed, although the range isn't quite as great.
19:41
But like, I generally anticipate spending five to seven dollars
19:45
for a cup of coffee. You know, here, just in my
19:47
neighborhood or 325 for a drip. And that number definitely went
19:53
down. My coffee budget, grew
19:55
exponentially as I move towards the middle and then came back
19:58
again. And that was really interesting
20:00
to me. Just how regionally we have
20:02
different expectations that have to be met, you know, beers and
20:05
number one, I pay 15 bucks for a good six pack here.
20:09
And I'm pretty could easily pay 20, but I generally top out
20:12
around 15 for myself. But when I was home in
20:15
Wisconsin, like 829 was pretty normal and wow, so it's
20:20
definitely an it's just a different Dynamic and I don't
20:23
think that it's necessarily less expensive to get products there.
20:27
I don't know. But Yeah, so like on that note,
20:32
you know, when we ship coffee to the Midwest, the coffee is the
20:36
same price and as California Roasters and not only that, we
20:41
have to pay LTL, shipping rates right to, to get it to them.
20:46
So, whatever way it is that mean, what is L TL TL?
20:49
TL is like a palette, like a lesson, okay, trailer and load.
20:54
So just like a single or two pallets on a truck that gets
20:57
combined with other palettes and Goes through the whole network
21:01
of insane warehousing and so that, that LTL costs pretty
21:08
easily can add about 25 cents, a pound to the cost of a green
21:12
coffee. And so those Roasters in the
21:16
midwest, main of actually paying more landed at their door, then,
21:21
you know, someone locally here in California.
21:23
So it's interesting to hear you say that but my guess is, you
21:26
know, so much of a cost of a cup of coffee.
21:30
Is not the actual coffee, right? It's the, it's the labor is huge
21:34
and the overheads of the place serving it.
21:38
So I sounds like that might be a big driving factor in what you
21:43
were noticing. Yes, certainly.
21:46
There's definitely a difference in labor costs.
21:48
I know, Wisconsin still has a four dollar and 15 cents.
21:53
I think, tipped employee minimum wage, oh my gosh, and I think an
21:59
overall minimum Age of around seven and change 735.
22:02
So that's definitely different from the 15 that is standard
22:05
here and write cost of you know your buildings that however I do
22:11
think and I'm speaking a little out of turn.
22:14
This is a coffee show not a real estate show but real estate in
22:18
all parts of the country has actually started kind of getting
22:21
a little bit closer to the cost of real estate here rents have
22:25
changed because with the internet and with covid,
22:29
everyone sir And realizing we can work from anywhere and, you
22:32
know, demand to start rising and other communities.
22:35
And right, doesn't seem to be going down your abs anywhere you
22:41
as, you know, you you have a warehouse of your own.
22:45
So you're always dealing with that Jared.
22:47
Thanks for kind of going with me on this trip today.
22:49
I know we kind of weird and wandered a little bit but I
22:53
always appreciate having you on the show and, you know, we need
22:57
to stop this virtual meet up and just get together.
23:00
For coffee one day and not record.
23:01
Absolutely go. Yeah.
23:03
So looking forward to that, set it up.
23:07
Sounds like a plan man. Okay, to recap, the coffee plant
23:19
takes two to four years, to be production-ready newer varieties
23:23
will grow faster because science once mature a tree can produce
23:27
for upwards of 50 years. Assuming that the The tree isn't
23:30
attacked by coffee rust, or suffers from an out of season
23:33
Frost or a drastic weather event.
23:36
However, the number of Charities, that reproduces will
23:38
decline over time, and the flavor will change as the tree
23:42
ages Farms will counter a trees. Decline production by
23:46
periodically. Cutting a tree or section of
23:48
coffee trees down the process called stumping, inspires, new
23:52
growth and increases production. They'll continue to do that
23:55
process over and over until a tree is no longer producing
23:59
cherries, as Needed at which point that tree and those trees
24:04
may be torn out of the ground and that section of the farm
24:06
replanted with new coffee plants.
24:08
Beginning the cycle over the difference between a tree shrub
24:12
or brush, is linguistically complicated.
24:16
I did some research after the show and essentially it has to
24:19
do with the size shape and number of trunks of plant has,
24:23
as well as its relationship to the environment around it.
24:26
It's a complex answer with plenty of exceptions to the rule
24:30
and I included a big section on trees.
24:32
In this coffee smarter edition of the newsletter on roast
24:35
westcoast.com. It'll break this down a little
24:38
bit further. But essentially a tree is tall
24:41
and shrubs and bushes are not and they're also round.
24:45
We also learned today than when it comes to Coffee.
24:48
A cultivar, is a type of coffee plant that has been human
24:51
developed through crossbreeding and varietals are genetic
24:54
variations of the coffee plant. That occurred naturally.
24:58
I don't know about you but I really do feel coffee smarter.
25:01
Today, I want to thank Jared for coming back and being an expert
25:04
on this podcast. I think it helps get us into the
25:07
mind of both sides of a coffee transaction farmers and Roasters
25:11
by looking through the lens of a green coffee buyer.
25:14
This is Jared's last appearance on the show in season 6, but I'm
25:18
feeling pretty confident that he'll be back again in the
25:20
future and there may be even more collaborations between
25:24
Isaiah coffee source, and roast West Coast on the horizon.
25:28
Both Jared and I will be at Coffee Festival a this week.
25:31
So if you see one of us, don't hesitate to say hello, and
25:35
maybe, ask for a sticker, check out his say, a coffee.com to see
25:39
what, Jared, his team can offer you zoroaster or someone who
25:42
wants to learn more about coffee.
25:44
I met Jose a coffee on Instagram, you can find those
25:47
links in this podcast, show notes or on roast westcoast.com,
25:52
thanks to you, everyone out there, listening to this podcast
25:55
today and visiting roast westcoast.com on your phone, or
25:58
your laptop to check out the newsletter which is free to do.
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awesome coffee industry professionals and businesses
26:36
that I am proud to call industry Partners, including Cape Horn
26:40
coffee importers Maria coffee, first light whiskey Ascend
26:43
coffee roasters Ignite Coffee, Company, coffee cycle, roasting
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Camp, Coffee Company, steady-state, coffee, roasting,
26:51
most your coffee company and Cafe lechera.
26:54
I stopped by three of those Partners this week alone.
26:57
I believe in the products that they're selling or I wouldn't
27:00
partner with them. You can find links to those
27:02
brands on the website and even in this podcast show notes drink
27:06
their coffee, try their whiskey. You won't be disappointed.
27:10
This episode of the roast West Coast coffee.
27:12
Podcast is was has Been written produced and recorded in between
27:17
the Planes Trains trucks, sirens outside by me.
27:22
Ryan won't I hope this episode is, found you happy healthy and
27:26
with at least enough sanity to make it through the day, always
27:29
tip your Baristas and be sure to drink a coffee.
28:02
And there, I think that was pretty good.
28:02
And there, I think that was pretty good.