Latest / Real Investor Radio Podcast / Ep. 99 | Alex Goldovsky on ProTitle USA, AI Implementation, and the Next Chapter for Real Estate

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Ep. 99 | Alex Goldovsky on ProTitle USA, AI Implementation, and the Next Chapter for Real Estate · Real Investor Radio Podcast

• Craig (00:14) Hey, welcome back to Real Investor Radio. I'm Craig Fuhr, joined again by Mr. Jack BeVier. Good see you today, Jack BeVier (00:20) Absolutely, good morning. Craig (00:22) We've had a great guest today, Mr. Alex Goldovsky. Hey, by the way, did I say your last name correctly? Well, no. I spent an entire life with a horrible last name that no one can pronounce, man. So I just, want to make sure I get yours right. Alex Goldovsky (00:28) Close enough. Don't swear it. It's good. So good. You got it right. Craig (00:38) All right, so Alex, welcome to the show. Let me just give a brief little intro here. In the early 2000s, Alex was a marketing manager and program manager for Fortune 500 firms. He didn't really satisfy his drive to do more, so he began to invest in Pennsylvania real estate with his wife as a side hustle. Alex used a vendor for his title services, but he was never content with the subpar quality of reports that they were providing to him. So he decided... like most people do Jack, just to go out and start his own title company. And ⁓ it was at that point as well that ProTidal USA was born and would soon become one of the fastest growing private companies in the nation known for its high quality title searches and state of the art technology features. Over the last couple of years, Alex has also acquired DocSolutions USA and founded One Diligence LLC, which I can't wait to hear about. He's also a published author, Jack, which by the way, if you're going to be an author, Jack, you want to make sure that you're published and educator. And he's a highly sought after speaker at real estate seminars, radio stations and workshops. And not to flex, but Alex has quite a podcast. It's called Capital Markets Analysis. He's not flexing the silver YouTube, but a medallion. I would wear it around my neck on a chain. Jack BeVier (02:03) Yeah. Craig (02:03) we get to 100,000, I'll wear it around my neck like Flava Flav. So Alex, welcome to the show. Can't wait to get into it with you. Jack, why don't you start us off and tell us how you guys met. And we talked about it right before we pressed record, but you were super impressed and can't wait to start the conversation today. Jack BeVier (02:08) you Yeah, this is one of those like organic things that makes doing this podcast so fun. so Alex listened to our podcast on, ⁓ the Baltimore fraud situation and said, Hey, I have a podcast. you mind coming on and chatting about that subject and some other stuff? And of course, and I didn't know anything about Alex at the time. Like I would just, you know, hopped, hopped on the podcast and we started talking about his businesses and 30 minutes later, we hadn't pressed start on the podcast recording yet. And he was like, we got to, know, Hey, know, can we get, you know, we got to do podcast here at some point. Yeah. and, ⁓ so it just, ⁓ conversation really kind of took off. We've got a lot of stuff that a lot of stuff in common, lot of stuff that's mutually interesting. So we were, we did that podcast. It was great. Had a wonderful time and then asked him to, to join us here so we could bring some of, ⁓ his incredibly deep knowledge to the real investor radio listeners also. So thanks Alex. Craig (02:54) We're running through good content here. So Alex, I'm really interested, ⁓ welcome to the show, interested in hearing more about like the start, you know, back in the early 2000s and, you know, working a regular W2 job and then deciding, ⁓ you know, maybe I'm going to go dip my foot into the real estate pool. Like how did that start? Where were you in PA? What were you investing in? You know, give us the background there. Alex Goldovsky (03:23) Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. And thanks for inviting me. By the way, I wanted to mention something before I start my journey, my story. ⁓ Some of my clients suffered significant amount of losses related to DSCR loans. I started digging on the internet and your podcast popped up. I listened and then I was super impressed. So very detailed analysis. Jack was great. You know, and I said, well, I got to get this guy on. So that was semi-organic because things happen and it's a cause and effect, right? So it forced me to search the internet and find out, you know, this is what happened and these guys are experts and I got to get them on. But yeah, so that was great, Jack. The journey started in 2007. And my journey started with my wife, of course. You know, it's like everybody's wife. You know, go do better things that... with your life and earn more money and try to open businesses. But like everybody else in the boom of 2006 and 2007, I was investing in real estate, suffered tons of losses at some points, didn't have a lot of fun, had the run in with the drug dealers in Philly and had a... gun pointed to my head collecting rent and people passed out on a on a second floor of the apartment building. It's you know, I can tell you. It's very similar. Listen. So so, you know, my wife said, listen, stop this nonsense. You have a firstborn child and stop running around collecting rents and putting yourself in danger. Sell everything. So I sold everything before the great financial crisis. And Craig (05:12) Are you sure this wasn't Baltimore? Because it sounds vaguely familiar. Jack BeVier (05:33) Really? Alex Goldovsky (05:34) Yeah, so it was not luck. Actually, if I would keep it to date, I would probably double my money. But listen, at that point, it was the smart thing to do. And then we have this social event where I go to that spa, right, with the boys. So we go there, drink and talk, shop. you know, I was the only full-time employee there. ⁓ And one of the guys had this niche business where he would start a business. would give it to his relative, they would run it and he would pocket 25 % of the revenue. So he had like 20 businesses that he would start and give to various people. And then the guys that he would give the businesses to were not the sharpest tools in the box. The guy had never graduated high school and we were talking at the spa and the guy would say, know, Gene, why don't you say how much money you're making? He said, I don't want to embarrass anybody. No, just, you know, I gave you the business. You got to say how much. And then, you know, after going back and forth for about five minutes, you know, and that time I was making probably $120,000 in salary, right? And I was thinking, wow, I'm on the top of the world master's degree, nine patents, all the papers and working for AT &T Bell Labs and all this great career. And he goes, I make, you know, $3 million plus. I was super depressed. I'm like, The guy didn't graduate the high school. How fair is that? Right? So I go back to my wife saying, baby, you know, this is what happened in the spa and I'm so depressed. She goes, believe in you. Do whatever you got to do. Work at night, drink coffee, don't sleep, whatever you have to do. Go and start the business. And ⁓ it's sort of like a short circuit in your brain, right? You try to figure out what can you start as far as the business. that would bring you enough revenue to say, all right, I think I can do the same thing as this guy does, right? ⁓ And that's where the idea for ProTidal was born. The idea was so bad. Its original idea was to do the reports and sell them ⁓ at the steps of the foreclosure auctions. It's such a faulty idea. I mean, you, people do the research two, three days in advance. And I was stupid enough to go to the foreclosure auction. did all the research and I was giving out papers and nobody would take them. I'm like, well, that's a fail. Right. Well, and then of course I discovered Google and Edwards and, you know, advertising and, you know, one call changed my life. One call while I was still working, I received the call, ⁓ which was interesting, actually. you can put the extension to the phone number. Anytime somebody calls like 800 number or Google voice rates and I put four, four twos. ⁓ so when I, when I was sitting and doing my job, I received this phone call. It was 2008, ⁓ or 2009. ⁓ and it has four twos. said, well, you know, pro title USA, can I help you? You know, what's going on? Is this pro title USA? Yes. All right. ⁓ Can you handle commercial searches? I said, sure. Okay. This is FDIC. I said, that's interesting. Well, we have a financial crisis going on and a of banks are closing down. I only had two employees by the way, at that point. ⁓ We need all title research companies on that to go and close the banks and do research and all the assets for our structure sales. Yeah. So it was that boom where every other month FDIC would schedule structured sales through Deadex or through Garnet Capital or others, our mission, and they would just do research and sell the assets, right? ⁓ The questions that I received on that phone call, well, can you handle, just to give you a perspective, to do a title search right at that time, it'll take probably two hours per search, commercial search. So they would say, well, how many loans or how many assets can you handle? And I said, I know, how many do you need? 10,000. How soon? In two weeks. And I'm a three person company, right? I said, sure, we can do it. No problem. No problem. Yeah, bring it on. Yeah, so, and at that point it was quite a hustle. Jack BeVier (10:09) Really? Craig (10:10) Yes! Burn the boats. Jack BeVier (10:14) War dogs, let's go. Craig (10:21) I went to public school, Alex, so I can't really do the math in my head, but 10,000 at two hours, I don't think there's that much time in two weeks, so was it the same three people that performed all these services? Alex Goldovsky (10:35) Of course not. my god, it was layered teams and and quick vetting of people in the industry and that was a pure hustle for two weeks, but ⁓ the end result is You know fast forward 20 years ⁓ Or less than 20 years. ⁓ I have a seven-year contract with FDIC or many bank closures So the only company that stayed and I was competing against, you know, first American Stewart and others ⁓ We figured out the way how to get those things fast and customize for FDIC. So now ⁓ the bank closures like Silicon Valley or Signature Bank is going through my shop. So those are the good times and it was a wild, wild west, but it created opportunities. Craig (11:26) You know, Jack, I love to think in hearing stories like that about back in that 2008, 2009 timeframe when I know you and Fred were just burning the midnight oil, you know, working the property side of the company and the lending side of the company. But more importantly, during that time, the reps that you got in just in that very truncated sort of time, like the experience that you got in in that very small part of time that informed you for the next several years. Alex, like if you hadn't have done all of those trends, like what did you learn in that very short period of time of having to perform at such a high level and getting in so many reps? Like how did that inform you over the next couple of years of building the business? Alex Goldovsky (12:17) That's me, not Jack, right? Craig (12:19) Well, Jack will comment after you. Guests always go first here. Alex Goldovsky (12:24) Well, ⁓ there's a lot of elements, right? So first to win in the business, you have to customize the product for each individual client, right? If you have a commodity, you're competing against offshore. You're competing against folks that are established and they have better policies, better insurance, better marketing, better connections. You can compete. So coming with the startup to the market, you really have to compete. ⁓ on the products, right? It has to be the best product, the best technology, the best of everything for the client to have an incentive to switch, right? So to formulate that and to move on the, I would say on the basis of experimental sort of delivery to the clients, right? So we talk about Scrum methodology, right? So back in the days, it was very structured and you build something that nobody needs. And that was the startup can't afford it, right? So it was always a scrum methodology with me. So we try trial and error. Does that fit the client? The answer is yes, we'll go get it. So the second inflection point in the businesses that I own is really knowing the clients, traveling there and figuring out what would be the product for you. And I think that's one thing that I learned. And then figuring out the right balance between onshore or offshore, right? ⁓ I practically lost my full-time job due to the offshoring, right? So I had to travel to India. spent three weeks there educating my replacements, okay? So I knew how that works. I had a deep respect for people with such a, know, ethics to the job, to do their job, but the architecture development product, development itself should be done in the US, right? You control the architecture and then implementation can be onshore, offshore. So for me, I had to build a team with the right balance, right? 30-70, 30 % US, 70 % offshore. I think that's the balance for any type of service business that anybody's in. Otherwise you're paying too much or you're making too many mistakes if you're fully offshore. Jack BeVier (14:45) That's super interesting. what is your client base look like right now? Fast forward to today. What's the, what's the client base look like and how have you created, know, have you been able to continue to create customized solutions as you've grown the business? Alex Goldovsky (14:52) to ⁓ Absolutely. So every month, every day, I monitor the news. Every time there's a piece of news, you think about, how can we design a product to help the client? So a few examples. ⁓ Title waiver program, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. So title waiver program was designed to remove the need of the title policy premium to save on the refi cost. and there were two vendors selected. One was DOMA and second for the Fafnime ⁓ X1 Westcore. To QC what comes out of the automatic ⁓ system or automatic program, ⁓ there was no vendors. So we showed our solution to the guys like Fanny, we showed our solution to the guys like Freddie, ⁓ and they said, yeah, we definitely need that because we need to QC the results. ⁓ Let's take as an example, you know, your guys podcast with the Baltimore city fraud. Most of our clients are now integrated the strong and deed searches through us. So we have a way to identify. fact, on our podcast with Jack, we identified a few possible solutions that one can deploy right away. And that's not a cheap solution, but that will be definitely, you know, hardcore. ⁓ validation if there was fraud or not. Governor Newsom signed the AB 130 law in California, which will, you know, supposedly go after zombie second liens. Now, as a part of that, he made a lot of things so difficult to foreclose in California that all the clients are in need of solutions. it's only... Craig (16:34) Thank Alex Goldovsky (16:57) I'd say on a monthly basis, a law comes out and then you need the solution. Government shutdown is another example, right? So what's government shutdown do? Well, you will not get the ⁓ flood insurance or flood cert in a flood zone properties. So if you live in a flood zone property, you can get a loan that are backed by agency loans. Who do you have ⁓ to call? Well, you have to call Jack because he's a private lender, right? And then private lender has a right to waive the flood policy until the government will reopen. It benefits Rockets, UWMs or Jack, right? Because Fannie and Freddie needs for securitization, needs those flood sorts. So those are the nuances that you constantly have to monitor on how each situation or each law change will benefit your business and how quickly you can adapt to come up with a new product. Jack BeVier (17:55) see you're creating, you're focused on creating those like, you know, understand like really devil in the details, understanding what the little niches are that each of these changes creates the need for a custom solution, right? Like the, government's creating the demand for the product that you're creating and you're then understanding the mechanics of how to do exactly that and creating a custom solution and being the first in line to be like, Hey, you know, that problem that the government has created for you? I got you. That's a, that's fun, man. That's fun. I love it. Alex Goldovsky (18:22) That's exactly right. Yeah. I think you love it, right? We talked about being being nerds of the industry. You know, we dive in and figure out very tiny detail. Like, ⁓ Elon Musk said this, you know, I'm not a CEO, you know, I'm still an engineer. I dive into details. I figure out how the rockets fly, you know, that's exactly how you need to be in this industry. Otherwise you're not going to go very far. You really need to dive into details, solve the problem. and then apply technology to win, right? So in my mind, that's the right approach. Jack BeVier (18:58) What's your perspective? You mentioned that like 30 % 30 70 split in terms of in certain terms of labor, basically, right? So you're, you were of the mind that, you know, we're talking about like, white collar work here, right? You know, because you can't build a house with somebody who lives abroad. But, ⁓ but in terms of like the white collar work, your perspective is have the like the Americans architect it and design it and manage it and but sure builds it or builds it and runs it. How do you think about like what the right combo of specialization is there? Alex Goldovsky (19:35) Sure, and I don't want to offend anybody who will listen to our podcast. So in my mind, knowing the Indian culture or Philippines culture, ⁓ they're great executioners if everything is black and white, right? So you have to take this document and type here, or you have to check this field and do here. Jack BeVier (19:38) Damn. Craig (19:40) We love offending people here. Alex Goldovsky (20:00) If you start changing the requirements or you have to think how to approach things, things fall apart. Right? So that's why I say the architecture and ⁓ management would have to be in the US because we know the market, we speak the language, we understand the transaction, and we really understand different corner cases. Right? Yeah. Jack BeVier (20:22) So I have question about that and I want to press on that because that is what I've, you know, I feel like that's become a, you know, become a, you know, when people talk about offshoring, they draw a similar. Why, let me press it though. Like, why is that the case? Like, why is that the case? It's not intelligence. There are brilliant, brilliant people with the capacity for abstract thought in every country in world. And. Craig (20:28) you Jack BeVier (20:51) I guess I wonder like, is that a function of, is that concept a function of where the industry has been in that, hey, when you bring somebody into a new culture, into a new operating environment, they don't see the forest trees yet. But the thing is, offshores has been a thing for 15 plus years now. I think that particularly post COVID, ⁓ particularly post COVID, when all of sudden the Americans started. ⁓ remote also, know, offshoring companies have gotten more and more used to working with people fully electronically, not in person. And that has increased the pace of offshoring. ⁓ And, you know, five, five plus years ago, it was lots and lots of companies subbing out to Indian and Filipino labor. But now more people are going direct on sites like Upwork and hiring labor, offshore labor directly. And now when I go on Upwork, find, I don't find people who I need to like create a system where they paint by numbers. Rather, I can find people who have five or 10 years of experience working at a mortgage company. And after that five years, they, they understand the forest. And now I, so I feel like the offshoring labor skillset is moving up and frankly, becoming more competitive with the American labor market, right? Cause like, if you're sitting at home in New Jersey or you're in the Philippines, I don't care, right? Like I'm not gonna see you other than on the screen. So what's the difference to me? And I feel like we're hitting on an inflection point with offshore labor that it's becoming more sophisticated and no longer just relegated to those paint by number tasks. ⁓ Alex Goldovsky (22:32) Yes, and no, there's so many things we can touch on. ⁓ Let me start peeling the onion that, you know, in my mind. So, offshoring is an art, right? It's not just, you know, finding somebody on the Upwork or ⁓ somebody in India. A couple of things you have to think upfront. ⁓ The rotation of the employees, amount of training that you put in there, how much you value that employee. If you hire somebody in Bangalore, as an example, direct, ⁓ if you don't pay them enough, they'll leave. There's so many companies and as soon as you give a penny more to the offshore employee in India, since there is no structure in the company, you just, you know, pay them direct, they leave. And if as soon as they have the control of something super important, you know, they'll probably ask for H1B visa. You know, you have to pay now $100,000. Jack BeVier (23:31) Yeah, that's I'm trying to do. Alex Goldovsky (23:31) ⁓ But so that's one. You have to really select the employees in the area where rotation of the employees is low. Second is staffing, right? So staffing is probably a better solution than hiring direct. Why? Because if you work with the governments, you have to have the right certifications, right? So SOC 2 or ISO equivalents, you have to have the right policies for the offshoring. ⁓ Folks need to be vetted. Probably they need to get health insurance, et cetera. So they have to be happy. My personal preference is not hiring in Bangalore, but hiring in more remote areas where the rotation is low and salaries are a little bit higher. You pay a buck or two bucks more, but those people are committed to you. So that's two. Three is I would never put a company in India. because it has to be sort of controlled partially by somebody in India. I, unfortunately, I know a lot of people in India, but you know, I need control. So to me, having a tasks that are replaceable, that's the right ⁓ way to approach the problem, right? So splitting the tasks of, you know, let's say loan origination and you would need to check the application or you would need to do that. So, ⁓ looking past the securities and processes and making sure that everything is buttoned up, the seat would cost you anywhere from six bucks to 12 bucks. You cannot compare it to US-based folks that are even in a cheaper place, like middle of America or somewhere where you still pay 18 to 20 bucks an hour. So you can hire two people for the price of one in the places where the labor is cheap in the US. Jack BeVier (25:25) Just to contextualize the conversation for the listeners, can you just run through each of your companies and just give like, you know, the three sentences on each one, like the title company does this and these, services we're providing and just, just so we understand where you're coming from, you know. Alex Goldovsky (25:41) Sure. So ⁓ on the title company aspect, we use offshore in many facets. ⁓ One is the call center, right, for the unrecorded municipal searches, because there's so many calls that we have to do. ⁓ We do some basic online research, ⁓ the ⁓ AI matching of real ⁓ estate documents to the templates. to verify that the data is accurate. ⁓ So it's sort of internal system. ⁓ We do some of the research ⁓ offshore, but QC, all my QC is onshore. So we have people ⁓ overlapping what they do to verify that the data is accurate, no claims to date. We have in fact, five steps of quality control. One of them is automation, right? So every time somebody touches our templates or our web templates or our search templates, ⁓ there's robots and things that would verify the quality. ⁓ On Docs solution space, same thing. So we have people that are moving the documents, prepping the documents, and again, QC is onshore. So we have a lot of the labor intensive tasks are done offshore there. ⁓ And then one diligence right now, there's only data entry offshore. And ⁓ the big, big caveat that you have to think about when you're dealing with governments or when you deal with some of the large institutions, you have to have a huge lever onshore offshore, right? Because in some cases you're not allowed to offshore, right? For the security reasons. So we do have this, that's why I say that it's 30-70. You have to be able to constantly occupy your staff, your full-time staff with the work ⁓ and then 70 % is your scaling of the business. So if you have overflow of the business, we handle 20,000 orders in a month as a batch for some of the larger banks and pretty much everybody, usual suspects in the market, they're my clients. So they know that we have a quality and we can handle the volume. And most importantly, coming back to the products, we deliver the customized product. that they understand and they adapt it. So now everybody in the capital markets that say buy from Fannie, Freddie and HUD, they use me and analytics behind it. So we analyze to the in-degree of every lean, every issue, assignment breaks, all of those things are now fully analyzed and we deliver on the silver platter, fully analyzed product to the clients. Jack BeVier (28:34) Are you, do you have title attorneys on staff? Alex Goldovsky (28:37) I have the attorney for DocSolution. It's a requirement to prepare the documents in a lot of states. But I work with attorneys. mean, I have a network of 50 attorneys in all the states. I have attorneys that do attorney opinion letters. That is a new thing for Fannie and Freddie. I have attorneys that are working in the foreclosure front, foreclosure attorneys. So we are all over the place. Jack BeVier (28:44) ⁓ gotcha. shifting gears a little bit to the AI conversation, right? Like, cause a lot of our listeners are real estate investors and you know, being bombarded with the messaging that you need to learn AI. Otherwise you're gonna, you know, you're gonna be irrelevant or like out competed. ⁓ And I'm also struggling with it just in our business, right? Like we have a properties business, we buy houses, we have a property management company that manages 900 houses and ⁓ then we have the lending business. and trying to figure out like where, you know, what, aspects of AI we need to learn and where it applies and where it doesn't, you know, like where, where the juice is worth the squeeze of implementing AI versus, you know, versus some other solution. What's your, what's your take on, what's your take on that? Alex Goldovsky (29:58) Yeah. Yeah. Is a topic that we, think we spent 30 minutes talking about before my podcast. ⁓ but, let's, let's just start peeling the onion. Jack BeVier (30:07) Cause I, cause I found out that I found out that a, uh, that Alex has a very AI forward due diligence company. And we've been working on basically like, try to create a set of AI models that, you know, press button underwrites DSCR loan. And so like, you know, it's very similar use cases to the stuff that he's been working on. So that we were going off way down the rabbit hole, but sorry, go ahead. Alex Goldovsky (30:31) Yeah, no problem. So let me start, guess, from the macro view. ⁓ If you're the investor in the stock market, don't invest in AI startups. They will fail about 99%. And this is what David Solomon from Goldman Sachs said. ⁓ Data centers, absolutely invest in them. Infrastructure, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft, absolutely invest in them. But to invest in a startup that is pitching you AI, don't do it. because A, it's a lot of money to build something which everybody wants. ⁓ It takes a long time and it's never perfect. So ⁓ we have this hype and fairy tale of AI will solve all the problems. It'll happen, but not right now. So the tech is not crisp yet, but it's getting there. So ⁓ one of my companies, One Diligence, is the AI based TPR firm. What does that mean? So TPR is the third party reviewer for MBS securitizations, right? So anytime the loan is generated or Jack generates the loan, if he wants to securitize it or he wants to sell it on the secondary market, he needs to hire a company like me to go and look that the loan is originated with the correct credit compliance and everything is kosher and there's no violations and all the fees are right and And basically I'm a police officer and I'm using AI to go and do the same. And we compared notes with Jack, he has a very similar system. So ⁓ three years ago when the refib boom was going on, ⁓ some of my clients started to complain. said, Alex, listen, we need another solution because ⁓ some of the usual suspects that do those reviews, they got overwhelmed with the refib boom. at the 0 % interest rates. So they were shutting down the clients and small banks and mid-sized banks and some of the large clients in the Wall Street. I was shocked. Some of the clients were, you know, usual household names that everybody knows. And that gave me an idea, okay, I want to start something new. I want to start something new related to AI. One of my clients said, we're looking into AI. It's going to be interesting. To me, AI was like a foreign word. I don't know what it means. have no idea. Still, if somebody tells me AI, I leave. I don't know what it is ⁓ because AI is so many things and people just spit that word right and left. So to me, I wanted to stay away from AI, obviously making the decision. We have ⁓ integrated AI in our company, right? So we use machine learning that I understand. We use NLP, natural language processing. which is by far 10x better performance than any OCR and any old technologies, right? So if you build something 10 years ago and you call yourself, 10 years ago, we started the AI company, okay, next, right? So that doesn't work. The technologies evolved so much that ⁓ Gen.AI gave us an ability to understand documents, right? So we use Gen.AI, we use the NLP, we use the computer vision, we use the... Jack BeVier (33:42) Yeah. Alex Goldovsky (33:58) version control, detection of different documents. We now train for 2,500 real estate documents and we can recognize all of them. We can do version control, we can extract the data, we can run the rules. But all of those things that I say are mathematical, right? And then the accuracy now, when somebody says, what's your accuracy for this field? I said, okay, next. It means that you're not involved in the latest technologies. Accuracy right now is 100%. Jack BeVier (34:26) Right, it's 100%, yeah. Alex Goldovsky (34:28) Exactly. So you say, Alex, you're smoking, right? What does that mean? What does 100 % accuracy mean? Machine cannot give you 100%. And my answer is there's such a thing called cross document verification. It doesn't matter if from the note, I pull the borrower's name at 94%. From the mortgage, I pull the borrower's name at 95%. But when I compare note to mortgage borrower's name, they're fully matching, which means It's a hundred percent match. And they also match to ⁓ expected borrower's name on the tape or loan origination tape or origination system. So to me, the notion of per field percentage goes away. Now it's a hundred percent accurate system. Okay. So from my perspective, everything I said is mathematical and applicable to documents. We built a system that can handle multiple languages. We can run things in Puerto Rico, in Spanish. We can do things in Germany, in German, et cetera. So we can do it for ⁓ any industry now. So we've proven the fact that it took us three years to build the S, I know. ⁓ Slow. I want things done as soon as possible, but it is what it is. ⁓ Yeah, so any industry, insurance, claims, ⁓ real estate leases, DSCR, RTL. home equity investments. So all of those things that deal with documents, either digital or scanned, we don't care. In a single PDF, we don't care. The machine will recognize everything, sort it out, and perform the task. And I can tell you... Jack BeVier (36:10) extract whatever data that you need. Like idea of a human scrolling through a PDF is not, you know, shouldn't be a thing anymore. Alex Goldovsky (36:19) Should not, but looking at the employment data, looking at the macro view, right? ⁓ On all the layoffs that or cuts, job cuts that were announced ⁓ this year, only 17,000 jobs were caught because of AI. That's it. I would expect more, right? So when we talk about, you know, AI will cause a huge unemployment spike, right now we don't see it, but it will happen, right? So I can tell you the departments of Craig (36:21) You Alex Goldovsky (36:49) 50 people doing the scrolling of PDFs and typing the data. We come in there, we show our tech, and then I'm afraid, you know, 40 of them will be let go. Jack BeVier (37:01) Yeah, it's, really become more of a, it's become very much competition for offshoring, right? Like, and so it's interesting. It's like, it's not the American. It's not the, ⁓ it's not the American labor. That's like the direct, that has like the most immediate direct threat from AI in my opinion. ⁓ because I think you put the AI alongside of an American and it makes it, and, know, the American's job was 20 % doing that. And now the, you put the AI alongside it, you're just giving, you're giving the human a tool and now it's more productive with that tool alongside, the person whose job it was to scroll through that person's that that's tough. You know, like that's just not a thing we need anymore. So like the, you talk about like the unit economics of whether to implement AI or not, it's not the American labor rate that you're comparing to. It's really the offshore labor rate that you're comparing to. And as a result, the value proposition, right, the value that the AI can add is really only the offshore labor rate. It's not, you know, it's not, it's not the American It's a productivity multiplier here and it's a $5 an hour product, right? Like it replaces $5 an hour work. Alex Goldovsky (38:08) Oh, I agree with you. I agree with you. So if you, if you, um, run a business and you build it the right way in, you know, last 10 years where you have that 30 70 split, the call it Indian employee or Philippines employees call it five to six, $7 an hour. You can build a system that will do the same widget for three. Right. So that's where the job cuts will happen, but I I'm not seeing that quite yet. Right. ⁓ the biggest problem in AI where I sit is adoption. Who moved my cheese? That's the question from the manager who is responsible for, you know, running the departments and deploying AI. There is a workflow. The economy is slow. They don't process a lot of orders. Why change the flow? Right. So, you know, we, we did the full digital integration of origination flow using that. Jack BeVier (38:59) Yeah. Alex Goldovsky (39:06) that AI tool that I just described with one of the big lenders. And the department that was supposed to adopt it, they called me Alex, we don't see any difference. AI doesn't buy us anything. So that's strange. What do mean? Well, you said that ⁓ the task that is supposed to take 15 minutes takes us an hour. And if we do it by hand, it also takes us an hour. So what the is going on? It doesn't make sense. I would probably close my company right away because it just doesn't sound right. So we started digging and the problem was the human. They did not trust AI. They would do the same thing in the AI system to look that the AI did the job. Jack BeVier (39:48) Right. Dude, so I have a literal parallel to that, right? Like, so we gave our, you know, models to our loan processors and said like, hey, this should make you a lot faster, right? Like just upload the documents and it'll tell you the answer and then just solve the answer. And now one problem was that we were dragging and dropping documents. And like, actually the dragging and dropping took about like 15 minutes for them to process, right? So like, and they were like, so it takes me 15 minutes to upload the documents in the first place. And then we, was the same thing. They didn't trust it. They were still scrolling through to, you know, every time, you know, to, validate that this stuff was all there. And so they were like, yeah, we're really not seeing any productivity increases. Like it's good. It's really cool. Like it's really cool, but it's like, takes me the same amount of time to process a file with the AI as with that. And I'm like, my God, I literally can't let them. even I have to take it out of their hands. Right. So now we're like launching this like next week we're API the documents into the models directly. So the human never has to drag do any drag and drop. And the, the, the, the analysis happened before, you know, at two o'clock in the morning or whatever, right. Like before they even got into work and they're just now going to go into work and see a UI that displays the answer. And that's all they have to work on is just the answers because we're not even giving them the opportunity to do their own analysis. It's just, you We we promise we extracted the data correctly. We filled all these forms out for you. We promise we got it right. Just solve the problems, which is what the AI can't do, is create problems. It will tell you that there's a problem, but it stops. Maybe give you some suggestions on how to solve the problem, but it's not just a problem. It's all the guy figuring out if we get our puzzle out there and the stuff. Anyway, have a literal parallel to that. Alex Goldovsky (41:42) Yeah, humans should focus on exception handling, right? Yeah, exactly. So that's what, you know, it takes a lot of training. And I think there's an opportunity there. If you are recently was let go or laid off or there's certainly an opportunity to be a trainer on how to adopt AI. Because in the companies, it's not trivial. You go through, you know, ⁓ months of figuring out who is that person that will Jack BeVier (41:43) my own experience in implementation. Craig (41:45) Yes. Alex Goldovsky (42:11) adopt AI and use AI properly and who is just not willing to change. And whoever's not willing to change, I would be afraid for your job. So that's how I look at things. Jack BeVier (42:22) Yeah. Yeah. It's a, the adoption curve is really interesting. Like I think we were leaning very hard and forward into adopting AI and man, the adoption curve problem is real. It is hard. ⁓ and everyone's well-intentioned, you know, like no one's like, you know, no one's for philosophical reasons, not cooperating. Everyone's coming to work and be like, cool. You gave me, you built, you brought me a tractor. Awesome. Like I'll learn how to drive a tractor, but actually getting, know, changing from, know, putting the carton horse away and only, learning how to drive the tractor and change the oil and all the stuff that comes along with having to drive a tractor, you know, own a tractor is we're all just, we're all in that adoption curve right now. And it's hard. There's nothing easy about it. Alex Goldovsky (43:11) Yeah, so in my mind, if you are the COO or CIO, you know, that's your job to go and make things happen because it's not happening in the middle management. I can tell you that middle management will be happy to do the same work day in and day out, keep their people happy and you will not see productivity gains. Right. So. Jack BeVier (43:31) I listen to the, the all in podcast, which is one of the, one of my favorites. And they were talking about how private equity firms, you know, there's, there's some companies that are like, Hey, you know, we're gonna, we're going to buy companies AI them. And that's how we're going to add value. And they are having a bear of a time because you try to shove it down management's throat and you find that, the people running this company are just nice, well-intentioned people who know their work, but like trying to shove this adoption curve down their throat is, is, is very difficult, very It's difficult to do from the, you know, it's difficult to do from the outside in. And only if you get lucky, do you have some internal adopters that start to like spread it internally. ⁓ and so like making it happen is much, much easier said than done. Craig (44:23) think I was listening to ⁓ Peter Diamantis does a great podcast on all things AI. And ⁓ it comes down as well. Like you might have the the best AI tool built with the best intentions. But I think it also comes down to the user experience too. So like what you were saying, Jack, of having to drag and drop the docks in, you know, major step, big pain in the ass, AI does the work. But like, I think it comes down to that end user experience. Like what does the UI look like? Do they feel that they're getting the best, most accurate reports out of it? ⁓ Is it cumbersome to use? Is it easy to use? And I think that a lot of those problems are being solved right now ⁓ with better AI ⁓ development and better AI tools. mean, just a few days ago with what OpenAI announced with their agentic AI builder. things like that, they're putting on basically a UI over top of what would be like cursor or some terminal view. It just makes it much more easy for the developer. What does it look like for the end user is what I think is coming next. Jack BeVier (45:39) I think that's fair. Alex Goldovsky (45:41) Yeah, I agree. Now we do need to touch on the other side of the AI, Gen.AI, the bots, the guidelines, checker, and the user experience. Because if you are a real estate agent or if you are a service provider for the property preservation, you need to do a B2C sales. That's where AI becomes interesting. Every time you pick up a call and you hear the AI agent calling you, I can spot right away. I don't know about you guys, but I Craig (46:14) Alex, I was talking about a few weeks ago, my wife and I had to get our air conditioner, our HVAC serviced and a buddy of mine who's like just a, you know, chuck in a truck. He's just a couple man operation. I would have normally called him. He was busy. He said, no, I got this guy just started up a new company. You'll love it. And it was so funny, you know, call to make the appointment. And I get a call back from clearly what was an AI, really slick AI call center. And the thing that I thought was the most impressive about it was, is that it flowed well, but it also had that background din of noise where you could tell it was AI sitting in other, there was like a thousand other cubicles around it so you could hear the other AIs kind of talking in the background. And I was like, that's pretty good. That's pretty tight. So yeah, keep going with what you were saying. Alex Goldovsky (47:02) Yeah, so ⁓ that actually enables a lot of entrepreneurs to build the companies with just AI bots. I give example of my son, my oldest son, he's 20 years old and he has seven people in Philippines and everything else is AI. He makes the videos, adds with AI. He does some outreach with AI, call center of AI. So it was amazing. He built a little company, little empire. for he does the marketing for general contractors, but it's all AI. So the kids nowadays know more AI than us three probably, you know, and he's only 20. So the opportunities are there. There's a bunch of kids that are doing very similar things. And, ⁓ you know, I went ⁓ to one of the universities on AI summits and those guys, you know, ⁓ presented, you know, there's a new AI music that you can create. or AI movie and how you prompt it and prompt engineering and all that. A lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. You don't make any money though. You don't make any money. It's all freeware, right? So you can experiment. You can do a freeware. You can buy a $9 subscription for this AI package. It's amazing. Like I said, don't invest in AI because there's no money in it. It's all freeware, right? Jack BeVier (48:19) Yeah. The, in real estate investing. thing is, one of the things I struggle with in terms of like, like on the lending side of our business, I'm like, yeah, there's tons of, there's tons of upside here. It's very, you know, very obviously like the applicant, you know, the, ⁓ where I'm going to apply this is very obvious on the real estate and in the property management side. think it's like pretty obvious. ⁓ but so far my take has been that my property management software is already a structured database. And if you're with a half decent property management software, software company, they're putting AI tools right into the software. They want to be the AI provider. They don't want to ask their customers to API the data out into the customer's custom solutions. They're like, we know what you want. Like, we'll just create the tools within the software. So it doesn't feel to me like that's a place where I get a lot of ⁓ juice for the squeeze in terms of creating custom solutions. I'm just going to let AppFolio and PropertyWare and Bildium do that for us and just pay, know, just pay for the subscription. And that I think that's probably the right business decision. And then on the real estate side of things though, like I don't do a lot of stuff on a very high volume basis, right? I do a lot of custom things, right? And, you know, we had RiverX AI ⁓ on, and I thought that that was a really interesting use case because it's working back through a very large database of leads to try to resurface those leads. but then schedule an appointment with a human who, because I do not think that 11 Labs technology is anywhere close to a place where it can create a customer relationship with somebody who's trying to solve the problem because their mom died and they've got to deal with this house. Like I do not see that person transacting with 11 Labs. So I still need to get a human in the loop there. And so the AI serving the function to tee that up, but outside of that, man, like, I mean, it ain't pulling comp. I'm not, I'm not, can get you into the ballpark of what a house is worth, but I'm not raising my hand at an auction based off of the bid that, that, that AI came up with. And I'm not processing that many leases, right? Like God, if I'm a huge company, I'm adding 30, 50 houses a year. Like I don't have the need to evaluate thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of data in my real estate company. So I'm struggling a little bit on the real estate side of things with coming up with. with obvious applications where I need to spend time, you know, getting my people to learn that stuff or learn it myself to create custom solutions for myself over there. It's just less scalable of a bit. It's a less scalable business, you know? Alex Goldovsky (51:06) Well, I'll give you one example. right, Pavon, if you're listening, I'm giving you a plug. So, Angel AI, right? Did you see that one from Sunwest? So, basically, they put the AI interface and loaded guidelines every time the guidelines change. They upload the new guidelines in the tool, and then loan officers basically... Trumped, you know, I have an older person, say 65 years old and you know, he has this income and that property and what is he qualified for? Give me a rundown of everything that's available. And you know, it speeds out. So that's an obvious improvement in the loan originator, loan officer experience where, you know, somebody who they have the relationship with on a person to person basis, they ask a tool, you know, give me a run. What is the best you can do? Right? So that's an improvement. They don't have to email anybody. They don't have to plug in the data on the website. They just use that tool. So to me, that's an improvement, but that's like a baby step, right? I don't even call it AI. It's the look up and massaging of the guidelines for a particular loan originator. Jack BeVier (52:24) And yeah, and that makes sense to me that like you don't have to memorize, you know, hundreds of pages of loan guidelines anymore. Like just keep keeping all that in your head is, you know, what made a great mortgage professional or was a, was a big thing that made a great mortgage professionals. You could have a conversation with somebody and they could tell, they would tell you like you give, you give them your such scenario and they'd be like, here's where here's why that deal is going to die, but this will work instead. And this is, and you know what, let me, and I'll get back to you with rate, right? And now you could ask, you could put that scenario into a chat bot and get the exact same answer and the price, like right then, you know, at 11 30 at night, you know, sitting on your couch. Um, and so then it be opportunities for where the value proposition of a mortgage professional comes in, right. Is building relationships, doing the creative problem solving. Um, And so like just, you know, it's going to create, think, I just think, you know, the, human aspects are like where the value proposition, you know, moves more towards. Craig (53:29) Jack, getting back to real estate investor level, ⁓ the River XAI discussion that we had, I would encourage people to go back and listen to those two podcasts or the podcast that we did. ⁓ It feels like you still believe that the real value from a real estate investor level, you were speaking at Dominion Properties, ⁓ is really lead gen, lead follow-up. Alex Goldovsky (53:29) I agree. Craig (53:59) but you don't see a whole lot of opportunity elsewhere to leverage AI. Jack BeVier (54:04) ⁓ yeah, Legion lead follow-up. think that like maybe the, like from a compliance perspective, cause you know, app folios who we use. So I'm just plugging them, but like app folio is not going to come up with Baltimore, Baltimore specific regulatory compliance. So I have to figure out Maryland led certs and Baltimore city rental licenses and Baltimore city property registrations myself. Right. so we're building tools for ourselves on the compliance side. I'll, you know, I will say that. because that's just annoying paperwork, right? Like it's mindless paperwork. And especially if you have like a bunch of properties, it like, you can spend three days just fricking doing Baltimore city rental registrations. It's painful work, Paying, know, paying, processing invoices, I think makes sense, right? Like. getting a, getting a Hoden Depot bill and coding it, right? And you know, if you, if you want to keep your books and draw the distinction between plumbing, trim, electrical drywall, you can take an invoice and teach an AI to code that invoice and create an export that upload the CSV upload straight into your QuickBooks, right? So like, I think there's, there's good stuff like that for like that kind of menial paperwork, processing utility bills is something, but if you have five houses, it ain't worth it, right? Like, If you have a hundred, it's worth it. But if you have five, it's not worth building a, know, spending eight hours to build a bot to replace what costs, you know, what, takes you 15 minutes once a quarter to do, you know, it's just not that great of a return. So, um, I think a lot of the adopters are going to be people, you know, it's going to be born out of that. have some scale, right? Like that it was worth the investment, but the small guy is not going to, I don't know if it's going to be worth the squeeze, the small guy to a large extent, you know, Craig (55:48) I would think that if you had a significant wholesale operation and you were looking to scale that you could implement AI for a lot of the lead gen lead follow-up ⁓ lead disposition stuff like that. I think that would be a ⁓ great benefit for the larger wholesalers in the country. Jack BeVier (56:07) Yeah, producing marketing materials like you were talking about Alex, like producing marketing materials on mass for to create lead gen. think that's a good one. ⁓ Alex Goldovsky (56:16) For the smaller guys, I agree, doesn't make sense. For a larger guys to sell to the smaller guys at the low cost, that's probably the play. Jack BeVier (56:25) Yeah. Yeah. Craig (56:27) Alex, I want to go back and I always love to find out what folks are reading, guys that are running companies like you are. You mentioned that you're constantly in the news. What sources do you check every day? What is your go-to news sources? ⁓ Subscription or free? ⁓ What do you like to consume? Alex Goldovsky (56:50) Yeah. ⁓ so housing wire MBA, ⁓ I'm subscribed to my buddy, Chris Whalen, who is a, yeah, he should be on this podcast too. I'll probably mention for him to jump in. Craig (56:59) yeah! Jack BeVier (57:04) yeah, dude, that dude's brilliant. Craig (57:05) I'm sorry, I knew Scott Whalen. No, I don't know Chris. Alex Goldovsky (57:08) Chris, so he's a professor, right? Jack BeVier (57:10) Yeah, he's brilliant. The dude is brilliant. Yeah. Alex Goldovsky (57:15) Yeah, so he's a friend. ⁓ He typically does three or four podcasts and then he jumps on the Bloomberg or CNBC, et cetera. But ⁓ yeah, I subscribe to him. Rick Sharga, I follow quite a bit. So there's a few folks that are economists ⁓ that I follow. ⁓ They do phenomenal analysis on LinkedIn. Most of my stuff is either newsletters or LinkedIn Jack BeVier (57:48) Which mine, yeah, housing wired, ⁓ there's a lot of overlap actually, housing wire, DS news, ⁓ default servicing news, DS news, ⁓ MBA for sure. ⁓ Craig (57:50) Yeah. Jack BeVier (58:05) ⁓ Is it the Maryland builders? For me, it's the Maryland builders. That's the one I'm paying attention to. They've got a newsletter that they put out. ⁓ Bill McBride, calculated risk is a huge fan of him. Also, yeah, he's studying, But ⁓ yeah, so a lot of overlap there actually. Craig (58:18) Hard guy to get on a show though, as much as we tried. I had one I wanted to ask Alex so You know you're a guy that obviously has the pulse of the market What are you feeling like over the next six to twelve months? in terms of transactions You know, what do you what do you what do you see coming? Alex Goldovsky (58:46) Yeah, I have a unique position where a lot of things in the capital markets are moving through my desk in huge volumes and I get the chance to review what's going on with every big player in the market before it hits the new cycle. ⁓ So in my mind, I can comment on a few things. One is ⁓ Fannie and Freddie book is relatively clean. based on the amount of loans that they're selling ⁓ on the NPL sales. So that tells you that 70 % of the market is relatively OK from the perspective of delinquency rates. Jeannie Mae is doing bad. Jeannie Mae is the first time homebuyers in VA. ⁓ So that is really where the suffering is. ⁓ Yeah, exactly. Jack BeVier (59:42) with FHA and VA loans. Alex Goldovsky (59:45) So FHA and VA loans, see already a ⁓ north of 12 % delinquency rate. In fact, Jack BeVier (59:53) Is that the canary in the coal mine for you? Alex Goldovsky (59:56) Yeah, I mean that will drive the volume of foreclosure market next year. That'll drive the volume of the capital market transactions, EBO sales, early buyouts from Gini May. ⁓ So people are gearing up for that. ⁓ Craig (1:00:11) Is that sort of region specific or all over the country? Alex Goldovsky (1:00:14) nationwide now, nationwide, very flat. Then you have the HUD has on their books, the Treasury, sorry, the Secretary of HUD has about 197,000 reverse mortgages that should hit the market at some point. HUD is now scheduling the reverse mortgage auctions where they sell 2,000 at a time and a lot of players are bidding on that market. if you don't see anything on the foreclosure market and you want to play in as an investor, you know, look into hot auctions and hot folks, my clients will hate me for that because it's more work for them to onboard more people. ⁓ Jack BeVier (1:00:59) ⁓ I a couple of auctions, I got blown out of the water though. Alex Goldovsky (1:01:04) Yeah. ⁓ Craig (1:01:05) Is that single property Jack or do you have to bid on multiple properties? Jack BeVier (1:01:09) You're bidding on whatever you want to bid on, but there's a minimum number of properties that you have to get awarded to be awarded anything at all. Like if you win two, they won't give you anything. can't remember what the number is. It's like 10 or 15 years. Yeah, the reverse mortgages themselves. Alex Goldovsky (1:01:20) Well, you're bidding on the reverse mortgages, right? So you still have to, it's not quite the property, it's almost the property, right? So the reverse mortgages are ⁓ on auctions that are past redemption cycle by the heir, right? So they're pretty much ready to be foreclosed. You still have to go through the foreclosure cycle, which is, should be a compliant thing in every States. You buy a mortgage and then you foreclose on the property and get the property, right? Outright. So it's still, let's say, six months to eight months away from getting the property. And then you can certainly rent or ⁓ depending on ⁓ the requirements of HUD, I think you have to, in some cases, in some pools, you have to really ⁓ sell to the person that will occupy the property and you cannot make it as a rental. So you really have to be careful there. ⁓ I think it's some of the NSO pools. So read the fine line. Jack BeVier (1:01:52) the deed. Alex Goldovsky (1:02:17) ⁓ Foreclosures are taking up, right? So I see that a lot of farmers will be in trouble with the government shutdown. They cannot get USDA loans. ⁓ And there's a lot of USDA delinquency as well. ⁓ that's going to be a problem. In fact, you know, almost 20,000 loans are delinquent that will hit the market for USDA. So there's a lot of, you know, ⁓ headwinds that that will impact the the market next year. The rates will definitely be cut twice ⁓ just because of the unemployment revisions. ⁓ But who knows, maybe it'll kickstart the economy again. Still a huge issue with the affordability crisis. There's no solution inside. Nobody offers anything that's realistic. You know, to say that, hey, we have a housing emergency, right? That's what Trump wants to do. He wants to declare housing an emergency for solving affordability crisis. But what does that mean? I mean, it doesn't mean anything. ⁓ You know, you cannot just give out the loans or forgive the loans or, you know, do whatever. I just don't see a real solution. And the prices need to fall, right? So that must happen. Otherwise, you know, ⁓ just there will be always a gap between first time home buyers or people that want to jump in the market. ⁓ So that's a little tough, right? So what I see next year, ⁓ if we're not in recession, we should be. ⁓ We should see a slight decrease in the house prices. The rates will drop, the foreclosures will pick up. ⁓ And I see the early signs of that because most of my clients, large firms on the Wall Street, they take the existing portfolios that they acquired. in the course of the last 15 years and they securitize them. What does that mean? They cash out on their loans to prepare to jump back in the market on the newly delinquent loans. So they recycle the portfolio, they get paid and then they're ready to jump in. Billions and billions of dollars are on the sidelines right now to go and grab the assets. That's why individual investors, they don't get the sniff, right? Jack BeVier (1:04:39) Do you think that the foreclosure, do think we're gonna see enough foreclosures for that to be a source of inventory that moves the market from a pricing perspective? guess on a, you know, it's different markets, right? Like the homeowners buying versus what the investors buying are two kind of different markets, but you think it'd be enough inventory to like widen spreads for flippers, you know, should be like, it a little bit easy, stack cash, is that your perspective? Alex Goldovsky (1:04:51) Yeah. It's hard to say, you know, it's hard to say, you know, I don't see it right now because people that are jumping in and grabbing 10,000 assets at the time or 10,000 loans against the properties, you know, they're sitting on them. They're milking the asset. ⁓ You know, they're trying to modify the loan. So you don't see those properties going up for foreclosure sales. So, you know, right now people overbid so much. I mean, they pay for a delinquent loan apart. Right. A UPB value. So nobody can beat that. You know, the cost of capital is so expensive nowadays for individual investors, but the big funds, you know, usual suspects that you read about. Absolutely. No problem. They, they buy at par. They sit in it. They hope the loan will pay off. They count on appreciation in some geographical areas. And then it's a waiting game. Right. So the individual investors, you know, after financial great financial crisis. it's not going to be the same. Commercial assets, Commercial assets, you know, still there's not a lot of appetite there. But residential, just, know, individual investors don't play in the same chess game as the Wall Street guys. Craig (1:06:24) What else, Mr. Bevere? Jack BeVier (1:06:31) No, man, I really appreciate you having you on. was very interesting conversation. Your perspective is super interesting. It's different than a lot of guys that we get to talk to. So I hope that the listeners were able to follow along as much as you've got this perspective of like, you know, high volume title and DB work for like, you know, for banks and large mortgage shops, which is, hey, that's part of the ecosystem, right? Like it's a perspective that if we don't have that, ⁓ you know, don't zoom out to understand what's going on. Alex Goldovsky (1:06:43) Yeah Jack BeVier (1:07:01) at that level, ⁓ you know, we'll get surprised, right? So really appreciate the perspective that you have in the market and you taking the time to share it with us today. Alex Goldovsky (1:07:12) I absolutely loved it guys. Thank you. Craig (1:07:13) Alex, if folks want to find you online or get in touch, how would they find you and your companies? Alex Goldovsky (1:07:20) So find me on LinkedIn, it's Alex Goldovsky or YouTube, same thing, just Google on the YouTube, my name and you'll find the podcast. I tend to post a video once a week talking to some of the industry experts. If you want to meet me in person, I'll be at the AB assist in Miami. Oh, nice. All right. Jack BeVier (1:07:44) Dude, I'll see you there. I'll be there also. Sounds good. ⁓ Alex Goldovsky (1:07:48) Let's hang out for sure. Yeah, some of my folks are going to ⁓ MBA annual in Vegas. So I'm not going to be there, but if you want to meet some of my folks, I'll be happy to connect you. But yeah, and of course my email is alex.protitleusa.com, one of the emails. Craig (1:08:10) Alex at protitleusa.com. Folks, hope you enjoyed the episode. Highly enlightening. Thank you very much, Alex, for your time. Really appreciate it. Hope to have you back on at some point. As AI is changing rapidly, I'm sure we'll have a lot to talk about. Alex Goldovsky (1:08:27) you might have AI instead of me next time around. Craig (1:08:30) We'll get the Alex avatar. All right, brother. All right, folks, we'll see you on the next one. Alex Goldovsky (1:08:33) That's right. Thanks guys, I appreciate it. Take care.