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Gen Z Iced Coffee Interviews: Hiring Bias Exposed - Grounds for Discussion · Roast the Post Podcast

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's do it.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I've got a couple headlines here,
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: very like new, fresh workplace headlines that I wanted to discuss.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so the first one is from a few sources actually, and it's as recent
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: as you can find articles on it between September 21st and September 23rd.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Fast Company, Business Insider, People and Fortune.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: The headline for is
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Gen Z's iced coffee habit in interviews could be costing them jobs.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Recruiters warn it isn't really about coffee.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm gonna give you some context.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious if you've heard this.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Have you heard seen this flying around the internet?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't, but I am...
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering if it's related to that old trope of do they clean up after themselves?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: If no, I will not give them a job.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, actually, let me give you some context.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: So a corporate recruiter with 16 years of experience posted about noticing
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Gen Z candidates arriving at interviews carrying iced coffees or lattes.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: She said that in the more buttoned-up Fortune 500 environments she recruits for, the drink
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: can make an applicant appear too casual, as though the interview is just another stop
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: between Starbucks and whatever else they are doing that day.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Her advice?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Finish the coffee before you walk in.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Needless to say, the internet has some opinions.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: So my question for you and what I would like to discuss is: Is an iced coffee
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: useful information about the candidate's judgment and professionalism?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Or evidence that our definition of professionalism is full of arbitrary rules
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: that have nothing to do with someone's ability to do the job?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: And additionally, where is the line?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Coffee.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Backpacks, sneakers, tattoos?
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: What if you say "hey" instead of "hello"?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't send a thank you email as a follow-up,
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: at what point are we assessing someone's professional judgment?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: And at what point are we just testing whether they know how to perform our
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: particular version of professionalism?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the internet's got some feelings.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Aafter you have described what that's all about, I got some feelings too.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's dumb.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: That is
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: it's really dumb.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: And is, and it's not... it's not new.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was hearing versions of the same thing when I was fresh out of
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: university, two decades ago or whatever it was.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, there's always been this concept of like... you need to look the
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: You need to dress for success.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: You need to be professional.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: You need to like show up and conform to some sort of standard that seems to change
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: based on the organization, the time of day, and the person.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: And those rules of the road are not published or communicated ahead of time.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: So there's very little value in it being a part of how you assess a candidate.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you don't say to the candidate like,
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: don't show up with a nice latte and they show up with a nice latte.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: who's at fault?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: You or them?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: They're supposed to know your rule that you don't actually talk about, that isn't
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: a universal rule.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Come on, that's dumb.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Tattoos and all the other stuff, like, things have changed over the decades.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Tattoos in particular, I remember when I was... the same sort of thing,
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: first out of university, starting to look for jobs, et cetera, et cetera.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the prevailing advice was well, don't have visible tattoos because then you'll
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: look like a thug or a gangster or you'll be like perceived as unreliable, this and that, blah,
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: blah, blah.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: so I heeded that advice, and all of my tattoos are in places that can be covered.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: but very quickly it stopped mattering.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody cares.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody gives a damn about your tattoos anymore, unless maybe it's something
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: that's wildly inappropriate or offensive or whatever, and it's super visible.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you showed up with a tattoo with a big penis on your forehead or something.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: maybe that's gonna impact your choice or your ability to get a job at a company,
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: but something on your arm?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Penis factory company.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: true.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: If it's a penis factory company, that might actually be something that puts you
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: ahead of the other candidates.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: No pun intended.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're applying for a job at a penis factory or I guess a penis toy factory or
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: something, yeah, get like a henna tattoo, test the waters out, let us know if that works.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with you.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think that this is outrageous, but I can also see where this
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: this person's coming from and this is wild coming from me saying that.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Is someone walking into an interview, throwing their stuff all over the
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: ground, slamming down their iced coffee, you know, and like kicking back and relaxing.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the iced coffee to me.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's how someone is showing up.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: and then that also goes back to our idea of what is professional.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it depends on the organization and the company.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like you'd mentioned, this recruiter is saying that they're noticing with Fortune
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: 500 companies and you kind of have to show up a certain way.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: and somebody might argue and say, well, if you have to give
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: people, like, if you have to hold their hand and explain to them how they need to
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: show up, then they're not the right candidate.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't necessarily agree with that.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's nothing wrong with giving specific instructions in the
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: email or the communication about the interview,
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: and then assessing whether or not there's follow through.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, I'm not saying like, okay, when you walk into the room, turn around
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: five times and like hop on one foot.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's nothing like that.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like this is a business casual or this is a business attire interview, show
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: up accordingly, blah, blah, blah.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: If those are the rules of the organization like moving forward, if you know it's gonna be like
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: business attire all the time, then you can ask for that.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: You can create those expectations right from the get-go.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: but people bringing iced coffee to work, I mean, or to the interview, I again, it's
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: weird for me because I would not show up to an interview with a beverage.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: I just wouldn't show up with
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: the beverage.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really less about whether it's an iced coffee or anything at all.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: I just personally wouldn't, but I don't know if that's wildly
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: old fashioned and then the idea that it's like it's just one more stop on their way
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: to whatever else they were doing.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Potentially, I yeah, I think it's again less about the the beverage choice itself and more about
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: our ideas of professionalism and like you had mentioned,
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: setting people up accordingly with expectations.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't bring a drink to an interview, but that's just me.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's a deal breaker.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's really how that person interviews and how they carry themselves and what it is
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: that this company is looking for, in my opinion.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: if the iced coffee comes into play,
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: if they're like sitting there slurping on a straw during the interview, well, sure.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: that could be an issue.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: but I thought that that was an interesting one.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I agree.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like back in my day, I worked at Starbucks and you couldn't have tattoos showing.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: You couldn't have any piercings showing and I had
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: piercings, I had tattoos, so everything was covered up.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: And these days you walk into a Starbucks and their full, like, who they are is on display.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's fantastic.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: I embrace it and I really don't think, like you said, unless it's something
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: wildly offensive, and that can also be subjective, then I think showing who you are is not
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: really a big problem anymore these days.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the root of it is like conforming to a culture, right?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like what's appropriate or wildly offensive or inoffensive.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: it can vary a little bit from organization to organization.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: So if your little test and your advice as a Fortune 500 recruiter is,
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know, don't show up as yourself, show up as like some sort of polished facade that
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: this organization expects so that you can show that you can
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: conform to their cultural norms and expectations.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you'd best communicate some of that ahead of time, right?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, I don't know...
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: like testing people.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've seen, I've heard people say, I like to interview people by taking
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: them out for coffee and seeing how they treat the the server, the waiter, the waitress,
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: whatever.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like...
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: People are nervous, period, in interviews.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are you actually... it is a very small percentage of people who are
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: actually showing up as they would in real life.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so they might be really nervous
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe they don't make eye contact or thank the server or whatever, like that kind of thing.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: I just... why are we testing people in that way?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: Build those assessments into your interview process and don't just have these like wild, weird.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: like tests that people didn't really consent to.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: At least in an interview,
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: you're consenting to the fact that you're gonna be assessed during this process.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: but when
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: you're just like putting all these hidden expectations and just trying to like catch
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: someone out on their behaviour, I think that's absolute bullshit.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like you said, stupid.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's also, I mean,
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: as you say, like not representative necessarily of who they are as a person, right?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: So
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's like... if you're if you think that these tests are going to capture a
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: person's real character and real behaviours, they're not.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: If that matters deeply to you, the personality and the behaviours and
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: everything else,
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: you need to come up with another way to assess them because that ain't gonna work.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I would argue that trying to assess them in a compressed, short period of time
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: is actually the wrong approach.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're not going to gather enough information.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're not going to be able to kind of really fully understand those factors in
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: your, what, one week period around an interview?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Trying to do that is just kind of silly.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so if that's critical, push it to the probationary period.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you've got... most organizations say, hey, 90 days probationary period,
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: like, you know, conduct those assessments, whatever they might be.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: along that track when people are more comfortable and they're kind of clicking
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: into what they're supposed to be doing.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: but I would still argue what's the point of those to start with, right?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: But
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: basically, it's... that tells us everything we need to know about the
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: culture of the organization right there, right?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: you're just gonna be constantly tested and trapped and... "Ha we got you!".
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: just sucky, sucky behavior.