Latest / The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast / Episode 301. Lessons From a Long Career in Refrigeration with John Shartzer

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Episode 301. Lessons From a Long Career in Refrigeration with John Shartzer · The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast

• 0:00
  Trevor: Welcome to the Refrigeration Mentor Podcast. Super glad that you're here again listening and joining, bringing experts from all around the world, technicians, contractors, manufacturers, just to really dive into refrigeration. 'cause this is what we do here at Refrigeration Mentor. And as always, if you enjoy this, go to Spotify, go to apple, like it leave a review, and this is how more people find out about Refrigeration Mentor.
• 0:01
  Thanks for having me. Thanks for letting me have a chance at this. I appreciate it. Yeah, I, like you said the journey has been quite a long one, but a fun one too. But I ain't gonna lie, there's, there's good days, there's bad days, but the willingness to work through it and, , deliver a final pro project, that's, that's what I'm all about.
• 0:02
  What I mean? But you're gonna have those bad ones in a while, but you're hitting, you're hitting a high average, what I mean? One bad one or even two bad ones. And yet you did 23 great ones that that's the stuff that we need to reflect on. Yeah. Hopefully you'll learn from that mistake, whatever that was.
• 0:03
  John: Yeah, so when I started it was residential new construction is kind of the genre that I started in, and. Sure there was a group of guys out there that were my journeymen, but to be honest, three months into it, I had my own truck and I was roughing in houses by myself. So that wouldn't happen nowadays with all of the different regulations and that kind of stuff.
• 0:04
  I'm like, what's Persian? How do we even do that? , this is almost 18 years ago now. It's like, how do you even do that? So we got a flow gauge and even the journeymen that were with me, like, I've never done this before and I've done hundreds of stores, what I mean? It's like, so how do we do it?
• 0:05
  Right? So it's that layered learning approach, right? So yeah, it took years and years to actually understand what we were trying to do, and then you could be like, okay, I know how to prevent what we don't want now. Right? So.
• 0:06
  John: Yeah. Always look at what's the incentive structure, , and those installers, their incentive is to get it done right. It's not to get it done right or get it done, make it look good and all that kind of stuff. But once you find a company that cherishes those things, , not only do we get it done on time, but it looks good.
• 0:07
  John: Yeah. And then you we're fighting the old guard, , the people that have done it for 20 years and all that kind of stuff. They, well, this is the way I've done it for 20 years.
• 0:08
  Trevor: Yeah. I think that a why is really important. More people in our industry should ask the why. A lot of times I've, I've done a podcast with the younger apprentice earlier today actually, and that was one of the things that we kind of talked about. It's, he was like, well, we're getting information from this, these lead technicians, but not all the time it's right.
• 0:09
  Right. Because there was a lot of misinformation out there as well. And it's kind of to your point, it's like when that that apprentice comes up, it's like, well, actually I heard this. , that apprentice is going to his journeyman and telling his journeyman, Hey, you're doing it wrong. And that usually causes a
• 0:10
  Trevor: And that was the advice the apprentice had too, is like, I don't go up and tell 'em that they, they told me wrong. What I mean? And I don't say that they should be doing, they've been doing it this way for 10 years or longer. But I go and I do my bit of research because I get this too. Like I've done troubleshooting with ai and people are like, oh, well it's misinformation.
• 0:11
  I do now after I've done more training and education and learned from the gurus and the experts from around the world, but at that time I didn't, oh, I fixed it. Great. This is what I did before. This is what fix is. Great. But going behind the scenes, I understand really why is important.
• 0:12
  What I mean? I'm building the knowledge. What I, I was telling another guy, it's like he's, he's worried about a training that he's about to do. And I'm like when you, when I build a training, I always build it to where it's not at the peak of my knowledge, it's actually down below there.
• 0:13
  Only some are quicker, faster, and more efficient. , so how do you blend all those different ways to, to work for you as that technician in the field doing those service calls or install?
• 0:14
  We got circulating pumps. Now as a refrigeration technician, some of some of them that were in the supermarket industry, may have seen secondary systems, secondary pump systems. But now we're seeing as a larger thing, especially with CO2, now we get better heat. So you're gonna see a lot more of this.
• 0:15
  John: Yeah, we definitely do a lot of hydronics and stuff. I'm actually quoting a, a, a store right now that they're putting two pump skids on and going glycol, so removing half the store off of the direct bx refrigeration and going glycol.
• 0:16
  Like is there enough? , then you gotta get into pop curves. , we talk about this all in our training programs that that involve that in our chiller programs. But it's something that as a refrigeration technician or even an HVAC technician, that's something that you don't see if you're working on makeup airs or if you're working on package units in commercial you don't see that a lot, ?
• 0:17
  So because I was a jack of all trade, I, I could do a little bit of everything. It made me more valuable to the industry at that time. So definitely helped there. So it's like, I don't know your opinion, but I mean, there are definitely specialists that can blow my knowledge out of the water on a specific topic.
• 0:18
  Trevor: And I think I, I've talked with a con one contractor hires me a bunch and they were like, yeah, 15 years ago we did is we used to have technicians that were kind of a jack of all the trades.
• 0:19
  I only can rely on that one person and they're tied up. So, so there's a, there is a dynamics there as well. I, I was the same thing. A kind of a jack of all trade. I could go work on a, a makeup air or a air handler or a rack or, , was I perfect at it? Definitely not, , but I could fix the problem where now I, I know I've just been doing a lot of field work training startup.
• 0:20
  And, , whether or not we didn't do some wiring right, or we didn't do that. It was my job to make sure at the end of the day it was doing what the intent was. Well, I would have to go in and Google and ask my vendors, ask my suppliers. I had a, a, a, a few guys that I would call my phone was my best tool, right?
• 0:21
  There's, you can ask it questions and, , bounce ideas off of ai. Yeah. You don't take what it says directly as, truth, but you can use it to test your own understanding of a system.
• 0:22
  You can troubleshoot it. It's just there's more steps on these bigger systems. Just like a A VRV or vr RF, they got a lot of boards like going from a air handling unit. Just say it's a York or a, a carrier or a drain, just a, a standard one with maybe a digital compressor, variable speed and a ECM fan motor on and off.
• 0:23
  And it got to the point where, , I was super stressed out, super I was always working late, didn't have time for the family, all that kind of stuff. And then it got to the point where we had to develop a whole crew. So now I've got a crew of guides that are dedicated to servicing BRF equipment.
• 0:24
  It's like, okay, the refrigerant is at this pressure, this temperature right here in the circuit, but down here, , we've lost temperature or we've lost, heat transfer or something, right? So it's like, okay, what, what is it not doing that it should? So getting that baseline, what does the system look like when, when it's running right?
• 0:25
  Trevor: Yeah. And, and that's a good point too, right. And most people will miss that. But why is it running warmer? Is the volts lower? So you got more amps And now as that happens to the whole system, not just the fan, and so now does that lead to a failure of the fan motor, a compressor or it could be many different things, what I mean?
• 0:26
  , and what I mean? But for the most part, if you understand the behind the scenes, you can figure out the problem and then fix that problem. And I think what you said earlier about more technicians need to know how it works when it's running normally. And I do so many trainings that I know we talked about in some of the trainings that we've done together, is that you've gotta know what it, how it's supposed to work when it's running normally.
• 0:27
  'cause I know I've done so many maintenances on in, in HVAC as well as refrigeration. And I wrote down all these numbers. I remember being an apprentice and writing down all these numbers and I didn't know what the purpose they were. And I know for sure people at the office where I worked, they didn't really know what the purpose of all these numbers for, and even the lead technicians, , some didn't know if it was off.
• 0:28
  I'd have a few guys that I could call, but definitely, it wasn't until 10 years into thesys, the, the, my trade that I realized that, hey, this is my career. I should actually learn what's going on. So at that point I started wanting to know what it meant. I remember going to a training years ago where they were talking about saturation, and I'm like, I've never heard of that word.
• 0:29
  Trevor: to do. Yeah, I like that, those points. I like what you said in being honest, like at 10 years when you start realizing that I really need to invest in myself 'cause that was the same as me.
• 0:30
  I like the way you put it, that, because I've sat in a lot of training with experts from different manufacturers, supposedly the expert from that manufacturer, and they're not the expert per se. Like they know stuff, but it's like we're talking about here, there's just a lot to know. Yeah. There's just a lot to know.
• 0:31
  But then I, , tried to try to, okay, how can I use this as my advantage? It's like, okay, so I. , he was a specialist, let's say, right? He was a specialist in that install class or whatever it is. It's like, okay, so I know that if I have a, a piping question or something like that, he is the guy, right?
• 0:32
  You kind of hit, yeah. Yeah. And that's just saying that 'cause we're on this, but, because what you do is you kind of do a whole overview of what's going on in the system and then you dive into each component and you work through the system in the direction of flow, which that's how I diagnose systems.
• 0:33
  But once again, training. But once again, you gotta go to other trainings as well. You gotta keep learning. So you can take a little bit of tips here and there and as grow your knowledge. 'cause it doesn't happen overnight. John's been doing this over 25 years, me over 20 years, and I'm still learning. And then I go into a manufacturer, like I've done a, I've done one with a Bach and Dorin now a lot of these compressor manufacturers and, and I wor, I worked at Klan for a long time, so I understand the way they taught me.
• 0:34
  John: Yeah. Perfect example of that. I had a good guy from another state call me the other day and he is like, Hey, I've got this mini split. It's brand new building and it's not working, right? We started it up and it was working and now it's not. It's like, well we went through some diagnostics and it's like, wait a minute.
• 0:35
  So, because it needs a, a good 2 0 8 voltage to draw in that, that the magnet needs to draw up the solenoid, right? So everything else will work. So that was their problem. The electrician just wired that unit. To only, , one phase. It didn't have a 2 0 8. So , and he had spent hours on that job trying to go through, figuring out what's, what's going on, because he thought it was something install related, so we did wrong right then which is okay, but yeah, come to find out, it, it, it wasn't, it was source
• 0:36
  I'll just start, oh, the compressor's down. Well, let's just start right here. Well, that may be two or three termination blocks over that's causing the issue over here.
• 0:37
  Trevor: yeah, and I've done it. I've changed relays before. I've changed things that, that wasn't even the problem. , I've changed boards before and I think, oh, it must be the board. But come, come to find out it's that communication wires not sending enough the right communication.
• 0:38
  And I'm like, that just blew my mind because I never thought that, okay, well I got one 20. Does it matter if your one 20 volt's coming on this leg or that leg? What I mean? Or going out. That's why they're all color coded now. , you got purple, yellow, orange or whatever when you have a center tap and stuff.
• 0:39
  What are some of the things that you talk to the newer guys about to try to help them out get a better understanding? 'cause it's a whole different world now. I know when we started out we were doing 80, a hundred hour weeks. I know there's technicians that still do that stuff, but it's not the same dynamics as it was before.
• 0:40
  And then all the trainees came out. It's like, well, you gotta learn how to talk to millennials, all that kind of stuff. And, , I kind of was watching some of those, but then what I realized was you just gotta connect to that person. What, what drives that guy right? Is, , there's like a salesman, what I mean?
• 0:41
  Do how to change your tire, change your chain and all that, because that tells me he is mechanical aptitude, right? Well, this guy was opposite of that. , he's a computer guy and all that. It's like, okay, well these systems are computerized now, right? So. Let's, let's have him be the data guy.
• 0:42
  Right? I used to, I used to want to be right. Now I want to know the truth, and if I'm wrong, I am actually happy that I have learned something and I'm not wrong anymore. Right? So I wanna know the truth. That's what I'm all about. Right? So but technicians, out in the field how to get, , I have multiple technicians.
• 0:43
  Trevor: Yeah. And I like that. And I think that's, I think more people need to think like that. We do need to, they do need to fill certain roles, , and that's the thing. Like, I need someone to go out and do these calls, or I need someone to do nights doing installs is a night JI need someone just to go do the, the eight to five.
• 0:44
  And so then there's a massive dynamic that us as technicians don't understand. You'll understand more because you're more in the, the management and the leadership role. A lot of technicians don't under don't understand that either. But I think I like what you said there, it's like, find a place for this new person.
• 0:45
  What is your goal? Like, you need to come to me with a plan 10 year plan, five year plan, even if it's a one year plan. And I will, I say I'll lay every brick in front of you that I can. But it's gotta be your goal, your vision, your drive, and I will help everywhere I can. So it's like getting people to realize what it is that they want to be and where they want to be.
• 0:46
  Trevor: and I think that's a huge dynamic that, 'cause there's still that a ton of that old, old school mentality out there.
• 0:47
  Well, to your point, if they're on the phone, then you haven't captured their attention, right? So it's like, okay, well now you gotta learn how to capture that guy's attention. And to your point, it's like, ask 'em a question, , challenge the where they're at and or ask 'em why you're, they're doing it.
• 0:48
  It's like you, 80%, you, if you understand 80% of the job everything there is to know you're gonna be successful the majority of the time. You only come across the outliers occasionally. And if you can then use, ask questions then, or, , reach out for help. , we don't expect you to be able to do a hundred percent of the job a hundred percent of the time, but you should be able to do a hundred percent of the job at 80% of the time.
• 0:49
  And some other people take longer than that, but we put them all at the same position when they finish. You're a journeyman now. You should know all this stuff. And, and that's, , I think this is where our industry's gonna change because that two year guys only two years, you, you probably wanna be paying him more than some of the guys that have been doing five or six years just the way it is.
• 0:50
  And they come to the training because it's like they're not pushing me to the next level. So maybe that's you as a technician. So if you feel that way, maybe you gotta go and talk. 'cause they're not gonna come and ask you 'cause you're doing a great job. They're gonna leave you there because they need someone to do that job.
• 0:51
  Right. As, as, at least that's what I believe. Right. I might be wrong, but Yeah. Okay.
• 0:52
  Right now in our, in our area, we have some pretty big profile jobs and they're offering stupid money for technicians and installers to go over there. But the thing is, is we know that that job's gonna last, let's say three years, let's say five years at the max. Right. It's like then what? Because sure, they might be offering you this money because of that particular job, but once that job's done, then what, what are you gonna be at?
• 0:53
  And then during that time, you gotta think about this too. What is the I, I talk a lot of this with our stu, the students that I coach and stuff. It's like, what's the pros and cons? Right? All the pros out, okay, for three years I'm making this amount of money, but what am I learning? What I mean?
• 0:54
  I've lost everything before, and that's one thing that I won't do to my family again. It got to the point to where, , we were, I, I was renting a house and they put the house up for sale that I was in. It's like, okay, now what? Like, I'm not in a position to where I can provide for my family.
• 0:55
  And then if someone's there for five years and you're just there for the for, for one year, you're gonna either take less hours and, or you gotta go find something like, 'cause it even, I've seen it happen to even me, like I was doing construction, like, oh, well, we'll get you onto service in this area which is two hour drive from where you live, but we'll, we'll accommodate for you.
• 0:56
  They were sleeping in, walk-in boxes. They weren't doing the job and they were a foreman and getting paid for it 'cause they were too tired because it's the middle of the night work. And that really sucks when you're just coming up and you got a fire under you and you see, this is my, the people that I'm supposed to be looking up to and they're sleeping on the job or not even going do the work.
• 0:57
  Like, like it's a young man, honestly, it's a young person's. Job, career, doing, install, doing service, and people say no. And yes, but you get 10, 15 years in the field, hopefully over that 10, 15 year span is that you're planning on your, what's your next move in refrigeration? So I'm teaching this all the time, even now.
• 0:58
  John: Yeah. And then well, trainings too, , a lot of them. Yeah. , it's like help spread that word to that next generation, because you don't wanna be out there at night and stuff. So it's like, okay, how do you, how do you pass that knowledge on? And I think that's, , there's a huge skill gap as we all know it right now in the industry.
• 0:59
  John: Well, no, it's still valid. Physics never changed.
• 1:00
  So challenge yourself. One component at a time goes, okay, I'm gonna figure out what this valve does. , how does the solenoid valve work? Or how does the, , the EPR work or an oil separator, all that kinda stuff. One component at a time. Get a better understanding and don't, don't think that you're gonna know a hundred percent of the information right off the bat.
• 1:01
  We do a lot of work all, all gamuts of work. You could definitely reach us there@advancedheating.com. Personally, my you can find me on most social medias John Schwarzer or Cold Hard Tech is kind of my handle. It's kind of a play on words. Cold, hard, truth is really, , there. But it's cold, hard tech 'cause I deal, , cold and it's hard.
• 1:02
  And if you're listening out there always invest in yourself. Just like John. Take that time to invest in yourself a little bit each day, each week, each month, even if it's five minutes a day, 10 minutes a day. It doesn't sound like a lot, but if you don't do it, the years are gonna go by anyway. I. So take some of that time to invest in yourself because you take that knowledge with you and that knowledge will help you along this journey.