Latest / WHAT I'VE LEARNT / What I've Learnt - Nick Littlemore

Transcript

What I've Learnt - Nick Littlemore · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

0:04
SPEAKER_01: 300 million streams and counting Panell's Nick Littlemore's collab with global legends Elton John and Joa Lipper, Cold Heart is a brilliant remix of the quintessential rock anthems Rocketman, Sacrifice and Kiss the Bride and a few others.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: The exquisite amalgam has catapulted Panow and Nick, a Sydney-born producer and his collaborators, to global stardom.
0:29
SPEAKER_01: The Down-to-Earth Loglossie is a creative chameleon morphing and adapting to resonate the artists he works closely with, to conjure up some of the most memorable music.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: Also a founding member of Empire of the Sun and the awesome electronic trio PNOW, Nick has carved an extraordinary career creating and filling our cups and ears with a brilliant blend of harmony and instrumental genius.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: Nicholas is an Australian musician, record producer, singer and songwriter.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: As a musician, he is the frontman of the electronic outfit PNOW and part of the popular electronic pop project Empire of the Sun.
1:05
SPEAKER_01: As a record producer, he's worked with Elton John, Lover Lover, Gruva Mata, and Nika.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: Panal the Australian electronic dance trio have achieved multiple successes throughout their career with their award-winning debut album, Sam Banova.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: They're also recognised for their heavily publicised apprenticeship under musician Elton John, who signed them after listening to their record Panel Panel.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: Several of their recent projects have featured John's involvement, such as their album Soft Universe, and an album featuring Panel recreations of Elton John's hits called Good Morning to the Mummit.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: He's tender, he's very, very authentic, and he's certainly in touch with the side of himself that allows him to create and collaborate.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: So we're super excited to have Nick join us live from La La Land on the What I've Learned podcast.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Nick.
1:54
unknown: Yes.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: So tell me about working with Pharrell in Miami.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: Well, only that one thing Pharrell always did is he had a long play VCR or VHS VCR.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: So he would have everything would be recorded in the studio.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean, these days it's probably a laptop to a hard drive, but back then, um, yeah, that was the legend that everything because he would think, and it's often the case in a recording session, there'll be a moment and someone will say something or someone will sing something.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and you want to back up that tape three hours and 48 minutes.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: Um when I worked with uh Phil Ramone, who um famously did a lot of strizand records, and he also he was the man that recorded Happy Birthday, Mr.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: President by Marilyn Monroe.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: Right.
2:44
SPEAKER_00: And he would talk about Streisand when he was in the studio, and he would say, you know, he was a violin player, he started out as a violin player at three, and violinists are some of the best vocal producers on the planet because it's a solo instrument, you know, it's a single one note at a time, and yes, you can play chords, but really it's a melodic instrument.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: So they they're so attuned to melody.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: And Streisand would sing these string lines, she would just sing along as the record was playing back in the studio, the producers doing stuff, the engineers doing stuff, and he would always say, You gotta listen to the singer because she's giving you a contra chance, you know, counter melody at all times.
3:27
SPEAKER_00: They can't help it, you know.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: It certain artists it just flows out of them like a river, you know.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: And I love that.
3:33
SPEAKER_01: And actually, it's a good point because seeing a lot of musicians, sometimes they can overplay or they can sometimes the singer, you're absolutely right, the voice, the central voice is something to be honored.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what what you've done with this extraordinary cold heart success story.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: But you know, you've really you've created this.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I do want to chat to you about that, but what you just said before you and I were talking just briefly when we touched bass.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: Talk to me a little bit about how you're dealing.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: I was just read I was actually reading 200 million streams and counting this song.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: I think it's the 300 million because um Spotify's only 54% of the market or something.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: So it's a lot of you know, as I was saying before, it's um success is a very surreal experience.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, for me anyway.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: I mean, other people I think are are quite happy to open the champagne.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: And it's like walking the red carpet.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: I remember walking the red carpet in London at the um the Brit Awards, which is the English Apras or Grammys, I guess.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: And um Luke was over the moon about walking the red carpet, and I couldn't get off that fucking thing quick enough.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: It was like the floor was lava, like truly.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: And uh I just have a real problem with success, you know.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously, I love reaching a lot of people, and you know, we're fortunate enough in Panel, and the work that Pete and Sam and myself have done has reached a lot of people, um, but it's certainly never been the goal to celebrate it.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: It's been um a celebration is the work itself, it's um a bit like when you're touring and the backing band are dying to go to the after party, and it's fortunately before you get on stage, and it's uh it's really strange to um celebrate the aftermath because it's that's not the moment.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: The celebration in itself, in essence, is the connection to audience, you know, that's everything.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, the dissolution of the fourth wall where you really are touching and reaching people, and they're reaching you more importantly.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's everything.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: That's the magic, yeah.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the that's what you're saying is your essence.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you seem do you seem to love the notion of honoring the past while tapping the future?
5:53
SPEAKER_01: Coldheart is a hybrid of nostalgia and electronic pop.
5:56
SPEAKER_01: So this fusion resonates with all generations, referencing what you're talking about.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: Do you think that's part of the success of this?
6:03
SPEAKER_01: Because you've really tapped, you talk about the audiences, that's what's in your mind when you're doing this.
6:08
SPEAKER_01: You have a sense of who can of connecting with people.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: You've connected with many people, like across from 50 to you know, from 20 to 50 to 60 to 70 with this beautiful hybrid.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, you know, we're we're riding on the shoulders of giants here with Bernie Torpin and Saraton John.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean, they've already connected to billions of people.
6:29
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we're taking these puzzle pieces and putting them together in such a way that it creates a new work.
6:34
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and they they call it a remix.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: It's not really a remix because there was no original cold heart, you know, it's it's an amalgam of six different songs put together.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: But you know, we live in a really strange time where and maybe it's always been the case, but it feels more the case now than ever before, where if you've already got a huge name, and we have two huge names on this record being Duo Leepa, the you know, the name of the moment, and then being, you know, a megastar, you're gonna reach a lot of people, you're gonna get a chance at least.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: The door is or the window is gonna be open for that to breeze in.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: Whether or not people pick up on it is another thing, but we were able to captivate it.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: And we had a lot of stabs at this song, you know, an entire album of his work.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: None of the rest of them are currently slated to come out, so we're sort of wondering what's gonna happen with that.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: But um it takes a long, um, an arduous process to get to magic, you know.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: And Pete did the lion's share of this one, and it's it is magic, you know.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: It is magic.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: It's actually um really touched a lot of people, but I think maybe we were all right for a sense of nostalgia.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, what you said is you you know, you had two giants in music, one one older, one newer, but both legendary.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, how did you choose the songs?
7:56
SPEAKER_01: Like, how did you decide that on those six songs that you were going to incorporate into that amalgam as you refer to it, which I quite like that.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: I agree with you.
8:05
SPEAKER_01: It's a much more sophisticated version of the mashup.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's really complicated because you're trying to take a wordsmith like Bernie and mash all these different songs together into a one singular message or allegory, you know.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: And I guess, I mean, what's the story?
8:25
SPEAKER_00: What are we trying to say here?
8:27
SPEAKER_00: Because it's what we in Penyao are always trying to give an uplift to give some positive beam of light or bolt of lightning.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, we're not ever interested in in dark or sad songs.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: They can be dark, but they have to still give us energy, you know.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: It's essentially music is is pure energy.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: And what's the allegory here, do you think?
8:47
SPEAKER_01: Like what it so when you know what it is.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: I really do wonder what it is because um I'd like to write down all the lyrics and see if it actually makes sense.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: It feels like it makes sense, and the music carries you through it and the melody, it all works so seamlessly.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: What's the song about?
9:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean, everyone interprets these songs in their own ways anyway.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: So I'd be very interested to know what Bernie thinks the song is about, being that it's essentially like a Burroughs cut up or a Bowie cut-up of uh all these different ideas put together to form a new meaning.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: You're pretty brave in the way that you've done it.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: Were you at any point, I suppose, scared?
9:23
SPEAKER_01: Like a little, I mean, it's pretty, it's pretty daunting to take sort of these iconic songs, lyrics as you refer to and to blend them in the way you have.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: Was there a point where you were like, what are we doing?
9:36
SPEAKER_01: Like, is this, are we doing this okay?
9:39
SPEAKER_01: Or did you just obviously you've got an amazing track record with Pnau and Empire of the Sun, but do you think that at some point you were, was there a hesitancy, or were you just we are going brand new world, here we go?
9:51
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think Pete and I tackled this problem about nine years ago when we did the first Elton John Panel album.
10:00
SPEAKER_00: And we went through all those feelings of imposter syndrome, which I have on a daily basis anyway, but like on the muscle, yeah.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: And this time around, I think it was it was different because we were just trying to get the job done.
10:14
SPEAKER_00: And uh, like I said, it was it was a couple of very fortuitous days.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, we were all separated.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: So Pete was downtown doing the cut ups.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: I started the thing with um taking sacrifice and working out how that could work over a dance feat.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then he took it on.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: And it just, I don't know, sometimes magic happens in the studio and it's greater than the sum of its parts, it doesn't defies logic.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, but a bit like I guess like a Bourdain episode when the camera's rolling, magic just kind of happens sometimes.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: And if you capture a bit like Phil Ramon capturing um Happy Birthday, Mr.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: President.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean, he also recorded Girl from Lampanim.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: He flew down to Brazil to record that.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: You know, these are things that that shape popular culture in such a massive way.
11:06
SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit like a combination of serendipity, but also um, as you say, there's something maybe a little godlike or spiritual.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: It does, it just happens organically.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: It's not something that you can actually relay to someone and say, this is what you need to do to do something like this.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: It's very organic for you.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean it's look, it's the only way you can approach it, it's just by trusting your instinct.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: Whether it's your instinct or it is coming from on high or some other place, you know, I'm not not religious, um, I'm spiritual.
11:37
SPEAKER_00: But uh, who knows who knows where this stuff comes from?
11:40
SPEAKER_00: Who knows why we're attracted to making music in the first place?
11:43
SPEAKER_01: It really is a time of the power of the producer at the moment, like whether you look at the Mark Ronson history or you, you know, that and that extraordinary doco, which you've probably referenced, and whether he's somebody that you I mean, you know, there's mixed feelings people have about what he does and how he does it, but you can't deny his success is extraordinary.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: Do you think the power of the producer has really taken on a new meaning with the resources that that you have?
12:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you as you said, you can be producing in three different cities, countries, and then blending, merging.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: That's all technology.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: How have you found the technological?
12:15
SPEAKER_00: No, I I worry that it's the era of the producer because I don't think they essentially uh write.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: And I think it all comes back to the written word and it comes back to messaging and um something to be conceptually strong.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: It's a weird thing.
12:30
SPEAKER_00: You you can go through any era of music and you can tell what era it is based on the snare and the way the snare sounded.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: You can pick it like straight out.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: If you listen to records from the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, noughties, and beyond, you can always pick it.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: And um, I never wanted to make records that sounded like any era in particular, but rather a malaise of nostalgia, of some something that taps into your inner child, that feeling of innocence.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, I remember when I first recorded Abbey Road, I was working with uh DJ Darren Emerson on his solo LP, and I brought in a flute player and a sax player, and they were playing flute, just a solo flute was standing in studio two where they recorded Lady Madonna and a bunch of other Beatles songs.
13:18
SPEAKER_00: And I can't remember her name, but she was playing flute in that room, and you're upstairs in the control room listening.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: And it's like hearing the first flute that you ever heard, because that most likely that was on a Beatles record, you know, as a child.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: Almost like you come to know the space between the notes based on that nostalgia of those recordings.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: And any other flute that you've heard is just different to that one.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: But when you come back to the center, like come back to the core, it all makes sense again.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: So, really, you're saying we're tapping, which is what I was thinking in the in the first instance, we're tapping that beautiful nostalgic somewhere.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: It's embedded in our DNA, that resonance.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: And it's not some, it's more something that you feel than you know.
14:03
SPEAKER_00: It's not something that you hear, but you sense.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: And I love blurring those lines.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: And there's a few musicians that I've collaborated with over the years who have a magical sense of creating momentum and the feeling of change without it actually changing.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, and part of I guess what we grew up in as Panyao was this idea of looping and entrancing the audience, which is probably the oldest form of music, is a rep repetitive repetitive rhythm or melody or sequence that the more you hear it, the more it becomes kind of endemic within you, and you can't separate yourself from it.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: And it changes you.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: It it actually, I think, music in many ways, and what I've always been drawn to, unknowingly for many years, but the idea that it can lift you to another dimension, can take you to a higher form of consciousness through its its bewitching and trance-like ways.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: If you think about um the snake charmer sitting there with the little flute and the snake coming out, and that idea, music can do that to us, you know.
15:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I've always shied away from pop music.
15:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean, now we're doing it, but really um for me, the thing that really gets me is that form of repetition where it feels like it's growing, it's blooming.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: But essentially, if you looked at it, it would be a static, like a sculpture, if you will, like a three-dimensional thing, but it feels in essence like it's coming closer to you, or is it going further away?
15:43
SPEAKER_00: And is it growing or am I growing?
15:45
SPEAKER_01: That is just it's so poetic.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: The way that you express that and that imagery is really quite um entrancing, like the way that you describe that.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: Do you think that's part of your skill is that capacity to do that?
15:58
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're obviously you're a chronic collaborator, which I I love, because you open your mind and your heart to all different forms.
16:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you look at Empire of the Sun, PNAU, what you're doing now, they're all quite different.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: Like they're, you know, you've you've really you'll tap something and go, Well, I'm gonna go on that path, that journey.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: Is that something that, you know, feeds our soul and I'm sure it feeds yours?
16:21
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm left-handed because um it's closer to my heart, you know, my left hand.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: And um, I've always been that way.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: I've always wanted to open up to people and have them open up in turn to me.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, I love collaborating.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: I have these new projects now, one called the Two Leaders Project, and another called Cinema Sound.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I just enjoy working with new people and trying to unlock something within themselves, something very intimate and um emotional, because emotion for me is kind of everything.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: It's the tapestry of music and it's the tapestry of life that links us all together as we can all connect on feeling something.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: Uh, ideally, it's going to be feeling something amazing, but often when you're feeling like shit, you're actually feeling amazing at the same time.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: But it's it's sort of true.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: I think that's really that is your skill though.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: It is really quite powerful, actually.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: And speaking of collaborations, I mean, how was the Elton Jump Apprenticeship?
17:22
SPEAKER_01: How did it come to light?
17:23
SPEAKER_01: How did it come to be?
17:24
SPEAKER_01: How does a boy from Sydney and his team end up in this extraordinary place on this journey?
17:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, and what did you learn from him and from that whole experience?
17:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, we met a long time ago, uh, because he was in Sydney touring.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: He bought, as he always does, whenever he goes to a new town, he'll go to the local record store, which he can't do anymore, but um, and he would buy a bunch of records.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: And one of the records he bought at the time was our self-titled album, our third album, Pinow Pinow, um, which we collaborated with Sam, my brother on, who now is in the band.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: But at the time he was one of the producers, or maybe arguably the main producer.
18:02
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, Elton fell in love with this record, and um, he was telling everyone that he ran into on that trip how much he loved the record.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: And that night he was at a little French restaurant in Crown Street called Tabu with his good friend Tony Colette, and they were having dinner, and he started raving about this record, this pineapple pineapple record, and how incredible it was.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: And she was aware of us because we share the same agent uh for live shows.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: Um Tony, of course, has her band Tony Colette and the Finish.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure if she's still performing, but so they connected.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: She got through our mutual agent my number, passed it to Elton, and then incredible the next day I was getting a massage.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I got a phone call, and I pick up the phone, and it's like, hello, it's Elton.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: And um it kind of that was you know, it's one of those moments in life that I'll never forget, and I'll, you know, try so hard to kind of remember exactly every little moment of it, but it changed everything.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: I think two, two or three days later, I went with Peter to see him.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: We had tea and talked, he was lovely, and pretty soon we found ourselves in the UK.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: We were doing a promotional tour of that record, and he offered to manage us, and it's been a blur ever since.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh, the rest is history.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we did a uh a Circle de Soleil show, he did.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: We did one together.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: And uh he offered us the the album that we made, and he helped me through some really hard times when I had a bad breakup, and um he's always been there if I needed him there, and that's been a very reassuring thing.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: I haven't reached out a lot because he's someone that that does that for a lot of people, and I've always um fallen on my own sword before uh reaching for someone else's, so I would probably keep him at arm's length most of the time.
20:05
SPEAKER_00: A few years ago, half my face, this side of my face, collapsed when I got a very rare disease called Ramsey Hunt syndrome, and uh I was falling apart at the seams, and he reached out and we talked.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: And six months later, I couldn't close my eye for six months.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: So I slept with my eye open.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: And um was that stress related?
20:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm assuming that so much stress, uh overworking, and I don't know, working with chaotic people, I guess, or just being chaotic in my own self.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: You know, I guess like through chaos or trauma, like certain parts of one's life are kind of earmarked, whether or not you choose to notice those moments in your life, but they're very definite in mine.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: Once I somewhat recovered or mainly recovered, he happened to be in Sydney.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: I went to the show, I took my brother Sam and my mother, and we went backstage.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: We were running, we were running late.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: Elton actually postponed the show for like 20 minutes.
21:05
SPEAKER_00: So he got a lot of people.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's extraordinary.
21:07
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, Nick, that's insane.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: Terrible, that's terrible.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, but he was very gracious, and at that moment he offered us the gig of doing another another record.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: Now here we are.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: So, what you learned from him really, like even when you were feeling like there was obviously the excitement of him taking you under his wing in some sense, but also when you were feeling a bit broken and a bit battered, he also gave you that looked after you or gave you some sense that it's okay that sometimes being broken is part of the journey.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're indicating?
21:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he would often, I mean, in those moments, he would offer a story, an allegory about when he had been through hard times and how he got through it.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, full of humor and kindness in equal measure.
21:56
SPEAKER_00: And I think the main lesson I really learned from from.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Milton is that you pay it forward that you try and help people, and that's part of the reason I recently did a collaborative series with Unearth through Triple J to work with young artists and try and lift them up and teach them things.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: What little I know, but I try and teach and help.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: And I'm interested in trying to be a mini version of um benevolence, the way Elton has been a giant one for me.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: Oh, and I think that is an amazing lesson because there's a lot of people that could benefit from your skills and your journey.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: Tell me about Jua Lippa.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean, talk about somebody who has taken her mentorship and flown.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean, she is just an extraordinary talent.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: I loved what she did on the record, and uh I had didn't know her work so well.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: I knew obviously you'd see this name everywhere, and you you'd hear songs I wasn't sure which ones are which, but obviously now I've kind of gone deep on her catalogue.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: So tell me also, do you think Australians, even just what you've done, but there's obviously quite a history of Australians being successful in music, but obviously we're a long way from LA and from some of the big players.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: But do you think the landscape's changed for Australian musicians?
23:11
SPEAKER_01: Do you think there's there's more opportunity or do you think it's tougher?
23:14
SPEAKER_01: What's your take on it?
23:15
SPEAKER_00: I think that the landscape of Australian music has changed hugely since we started out our journey in sort of 1993, 94.
23:23
SPEAKER_00: I f I find in the last eight years, the connectivity of the internet and just young people being so incredibly innovative and surprising.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: It's really changed hugely.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: Now, in terms of trying to have success in this business, I think it's never been more difficult because we have we're over overwhelmed by the amount of just the sheer volume of music coming out these days.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: I think it's something like 45,000 records a week.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: It might even be a day, I don't know.
23:51
SPEAKER_00: But it's um it's disturbing how much music there is, which is a wonderful thing.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: So it means a lot of people are sharing and getting in touch with something very powerful and playing with that zeitgeist.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: But to get noticed, or um, you know, as Moody Man once said, music is not a way to get paid.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: It's not something you do for that reason.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh, in a world which is becoming increasingly about money and security, uh, music is not that.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: And it's not the way to get there.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: And that's another thing I learned from Elton is that you, through generosity and kindness, you're actually more likely to be successful than you are through trying to hold everything yourself.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: And I always say this to young artists: you know, 100% of nothing is nothing.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: So there's nothing wrong with sharing with someone else to make something greater, even if it's only they change things just that little bit.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: If someone else's ear will hear something, change something just the slightest amount that could make all the difference.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: And it's not, yeah, that you know, there's a lot of ego in this business with young people, with old people, with all kinds of people, and and with myself.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: But I'm always trying to fight against that, not always successfully.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's you kind of got to keep it in check.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: You need some kind of healthy level level of it, but at the same time, it's not always very healthy.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but just by virtue of what it is and and what you do, you're immersed in, as you say, often a chaotic situation.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: But then that's also where the creative hub actually grows.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: That's what you're saying, is that in some ways you need that for the creative essence.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: So, how do you protect yourself?
25:22
SPEAKER_01: How do you protect yourself from some of these elements?
25:25
SPEAKER_00: I think it's a I think it's a battle.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: I think it's a constant battle, the feeling of self-worth.
25:29
SPEAKER_00: I just push through.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: I like working.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: I just met a young, young guy on the weekend, and we're just we're sort of halfway through making an EP right now.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: He just came over because he was a friend of a friend.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: He'd never met a record before, but we had a nice connection, and I've just spent the last 60 odd hours just working my ass off based on some little motifs he played on the piano.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: And I find work is the best way to deal with anything.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: If I sit there and I watch things or I listen to things or I stew, it ultimately doesn't lead anywhere good.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: I've started exercising, which I think helps to get out of your head a bit and out of that looping effect, you know.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: And it's a bit like depression is a kind of it's a downward spiral.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: And I understand that downward spiral, but I also think it's a kind of a concentric circle of a downward spiral.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: It's not necessarily you're actually going anywhere, you're just sort of staying in this one fucker that you've you yeah, it like a broken record, you just keep going around and and colliding on this same bad thought of something that you've done or said or or someone said to you, or whatever it is, uh, it's really very um destructive.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: And it's it's not at all useful to be depressed.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: Now, I know that doesn't sound like a revelation, but actually by working through something, you will find some light because work is love, is creativity, and that's the upward motion.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: Like as soon as you create something, you're putting something new into the equation, you know, you're moving out of a loop.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: I actually think that's probably one of the best therapeutic pieces of advice that a lot of, and particularly young people in the creative arts, like the notion that, you know, many are quite obsessive, and and and the nature of trying to be really good at something is to obsess and to focus and to hone all of those skills.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, as as you referred to, you can get stuck in that groove or that broken record and it becomes destructive rather than creative.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: So it's a matter of, you know, finding your way out of the loop, but still being able to access the creativity.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: Is that something that you struggle with?
27:35
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, I do.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I was sitting on the couch before the call and I was feeling terrible.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: Well, you don't look terrible and you don't sound terrible.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm really grateful that you're joining me and talking because, you know, if this is, I can be, this could be your session, you know, like a lot of it's very cathartic.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: No, it is well, it's very cathartic.
27:55
SPEAKER_01: And I speak to a lot of artists, and I think there is a catharsis in connecting and engaging and sharing, which is what you're doing, you know, and so you're feeling a bit better and you're out in the garden and you're looking at it.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: But it's always it's always nice to come out here.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: I love I love the garden.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: I love the garden.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: I spend a lot of time when I'm not um editing, which is most of what I do, and writing, and I still write a lot.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: I still have tons of notebooks and I write all the time.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, most of which don't turn into songs, you know.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: But I just write and write and write and write and try and make things that make sense.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: Or I'm working with an another young um musician at the moment called Justice West, who's um incredible guitarist, but now he's also a producer and a singer and a songwriter from Kansas City.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: And he used to play with Mac Miller, he's done lots of other things, but he's he's I think he's a bona fide genius.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: And I've been fortunate enough in my life to work with a lot of of those types of people that that really are music, like they can't not make something truly glorious.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and it's for me, I'm just just a witness to that.
29:03
SPEAKER_00: But it's great because I go through my old notebooks and he just loves the way I write, so he just puts melody to my scribbles and nonsense and and gives it meaning.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's well, doesn't it say something about you though?
29:15
SPEAKER_01: It says something about you, Nicholas, because you obviously attract certain types and and gravitate to sort certain people who do have that talent and that resonance, but it must say something about you as a person that you are open to that and can actually it can feed your soul, but you feed their soul.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: So that in itself is a skill set and something that not everybody can do.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I often wonder, I I do think everyone can do it because I think that most of what creativity is, uh I think it was Terence McKenna that said this, that that women are the arbiters of language, and that the way we've really all we've really done as humans in terms of evolution is through small mouth noises.
29:58
SPEAKER_00: So having a conversation with someone um is really creating, you know.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: And you what whether you're creating a dialogue or you're singing or you're telling them a story, or you're telling them your woes, or you're describing something to someone that can't see it, you know, who's on the phone on the other side of the planet, whatever it is, or on a on a helpline or a lifeline, you're offering something, you know, you're you're having an exchange.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: And I really think that that that's all I have to offer, but I really think that's all any of us have to offer is just a small piece of ourselves, or it's just our time and just to be there and to listen.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: And I spend a lot of time with young artists and just just listen to them and don't really say, Oh, you need to do this, or you should do this, because I don't think that's always very useful to tell them what they should do.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: Well, and often the impossible thing to do.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, well, you should hire this person because they're$7,000 a song and they'll make you sound amazing.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: It's like, yeah, cool.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: I don't have seven dollars, let alone seven thousand.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: But that's to your credit.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: You have not really used your success, which is really quite extraordinary, really, in the scheme of things.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: You haven't used it as your um crutch, it's become actually something that's allowed you to grow more and dive deeper, and you don't seem to lean on it, which is really fascinating to me.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: It's not not your No, I think it's a bit like accolades or any of those things.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: Success isn't really real.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: And the music that I make, it was never, I always understood it wasn't for me.
31:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I didn't do any of it all on my own.
31:33
SPEAKER_00: I always work with someone else and I work with incredible people.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: You know, one of the only pieces of advice I got from my grandfather before he passed was surround yourself with people who can do everything you can't, and you'll never fail.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: And it's it's really uh something I live by.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: And that's it, you know.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: That's and clearly you were yeah, and clearly you were close to him, but you sound like you also who have you learned some of these extraordinary gems from because you seem quite a deep thinker.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: Was this from your grandfather, or was this from your parents, or what where where is this um this soul come from?
32:07
SPEAKER_00: This there's a I mean, I I don't know.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: I think I watched a lot of cinema when I was young, and I find cinema to be the highest form of art in that it can encompass every other form of art within it, uh, and read a lot of stories.
32:21
SPEAKER_00: I was very sensitive and uh and sad a lot.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: And I think if you're sad, you can make yourself small, or it it makes you small by crushing you.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: And when you're quiet, you notice and you respond to things that if you're loud and you're boisterous or you're arrogant and overly confident, you miss a lot of things.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: I absolutely agree with you on that.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: I think that is such a poignant um observation, actually.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: You know, that the sadness is part of, and that people who try and avoid the sadness sometimes miss the nuance.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: That's what that's what you're saying.
32:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you know, to be honest, I've never been able to hide whatever emotion I'm feeling.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I have lost friends who I haven't known them to be sad, and then you know, you find out some terrible thing has occurred and you find out that they were sad the whole time, but they were masking it.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: And it's not just not something I've ever been able to do.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: Like uh I've probably been a burden and a weight on a lot of people, but that's kind of what life is.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: You know, we help each other, and if we hide from any part of our true sense, you know, we're denying our sensuous nature, and it's a shared experience consciousness.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: We are one entity, essentially, as as separated as it looks and feels, and by every notion, we'd say there's no way we're connected.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: Of course we are.
33:45
SPEAKER_00: Like that's it.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: But we're connected to every living thing.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, it's something I've come to know through meditation deeper and deeper.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: And when I did have this uh illness, I went to India and I went to Japan and I went to Korea and I sat with monks and meditated, and and the meditation I found very difficult, but the chanting I found a deep connection because I sat in a circle with five, you know, serious people, I suppose, um, who does do it all the time.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: And they they welcomed me into the circle and to sing with them or to chant with them, I felt the connection, you know, and I started to understand.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: And I I feel like it's an unfolding, and like intelligence or wisdom or any of those things, it continually unfolds.
34:31
SPEAKER_00: And you the deeper you go, the more of these sort of quantum leaps that that you experience and knowing, you know, when you when you finally know something, and I've often I think in that Buddhist term that knowing something is to really unknow a hell of a lot of things and really just witness, because that maybe is is my role here, and maybe it's all of our roles is really just to witness and if we can to just uplift uh through that through that path.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: But for the most part, it's just realizing how truly extraordinary it is that we're even alive, especially with everything that's been happening globally right now.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: Like obviously, there's a lot of reflection about how we want to live and who we want to be.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting that you have gone on that journey.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: Did you find that was part of your healing that you needed to extricate yourself from where you were?
35:20
SPEAKER_01: And to you talk about going to India and Japan and learning certain new skills and connecting with people in a different way.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: Is that something that you think was the beginning of your healing, both physically and otherwise?
35:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it was um it's it's an ongoing thing.
35:35
SPEAKER_00: And even though most of the um the paralysis got better, I feel like I started that journey of healing right from the start of my life.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think I'll ever quite get there.
35:47
SPEAKER_00: I hope I get more healed than more injured by the end.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: But I think part of it is um like a Caravaggio painting where you've got that that spear in your side.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: And it, you know, if people could really see the wounds that we all wear, we'd look very different to the people that we actually present, you know.
36:05
SPEAKER_00: And by presenting those wounds in the right way and the curated way, you're able to kind of injure yourself so that others aren't injured and they're they feel okay to come into your space or you're you're allowed to enter theirs.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: And as a producer as or collaborator as a songwriter, it's really for me about being as small or as large as you need to be in a room.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: And most of the time, especially with young, talented people, it's really about being small, just a couple of moments of guiding guidance in the right direction, but in a way that is positive and not judgmental, is kind of everything.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think knowing a lot of young musicians, they'll be pretty excited to hear that you think that way because it gives them hope and it gives them a pathway and it gives them a sense that I mean, one thing that I've really noticed is you've got a wonderful egalitarian approach to everything.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: It's it's you don't speak from up high, you know.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: And I I've interviewed a lot of artists and musicians and people, and some speak from up high, you know, but you're speaking in this wonderful sort of equal space.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really important, especially for young musicians coming up through the ranks, to know that they can connect with someone like you, that they can, you know, that they can resonate what you're saying.
37:19
SPEAKER_01: Do you do you have any um tips for like budding young musicians in terms of navigating?
37:24
SPEAKER_01: And obviously, it's different for everyone.
37:27
SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, I do, and I often find people online and then just sort of somewhat sermonize them about things that they should try.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, and one of the main things I say is that you should try, you have your avenue that you already have in music, but you should try a really different approach.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: If you're a singer, then you should try writing for a singer, you know, and if if you're a drummer, then you should try playing an instrument, a musical instrument, you know, a tuned instrument.
37:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, but really what it is is is stepping outside of yourself, being uncomfortable, and seeing what happens then.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, because there are no mistakes, there are no wrong notes, and there are no wrong moves, you know.
38:08
SPEAKER_00: It's you need to have a sense of play.
38:11
SPEAKER_00: There needs to be a sense of novelty in everything you do.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: Because as soon as you think you know, that's I really think it's kind of where you're lost.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: Keep growing.
38:21
SPEAKER_01: Um is it luck or opportunity, determination, and grit, or is it all of the above you think that's got you where you are, or where you know you know?
38:30
SPEAKER_00: Mainly luck, but it's you end up being a lot luckier if you're there every day.
38:34
SPEAKER_00: It's the people um that give themselves a pass that I worry about, the ones that think they've already got somewhere.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: And that's why I just keep going in the room.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: I'm going in the room tonight with a young singer, and I just keep trying, keep trying, keep trying, keep trying, scrap everything I just did, try and do something better or different or open or whatever.
38:57
SPEAKER_00: And music is eternal, and I keep finding new music that I love, whether it's new or old or whatever.
39:03
SPEAKER_00: There's there's so many ways of of carving up those 12 notes.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: It's it's really infinite.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: And are you planning to tour Australia soon, or what's your thinking?
39:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're coming, we're sh doing some shows, I think around New Year's, and then again, I think it's in March and April, and then I think we're going, we're doing European summer, I believe.
39:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so there are there are a bunch of shows coming up.
39:30
SPEAKER_01: So you're excited to come back to Australia and see everyone.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: How are you feeling?
39:34
SPEAKER_01: Do you miss Australia at all?
39:35
SPEAKER_00: Or you I I was there for eight months.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: Uh, was back in November all the way through to almost a few days shy of the lockdown again in Sydney.
39:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I love Australia deeply.
39:47
SPEAKER_00: It's always a joy to come back, you know.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: It's um it's such a huge part of my heart.
39:53
SPEAKER_00: Even just the smell, the smell in the morning of the bush or um, you know, the eucalyptus, the way the light hits, you know, the Chinese food.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean everything.
40:04
SPEAKER_00: I I love it.
40:06
SPEAKER_00: I love LA too, but in a really different, it's it's a really strange place, but it's a mad place for creatives.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: There's people from everywhere here, and that's that's exhilarating.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: It's always exhilarating.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because you have this yeah, multi-faceted, multi-layered.
40:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's nothing like LA, let's be honest.
40:25
SPEAKER_01: So when you come back to Australia, is there anything that you specifically are looking forward to doing?
40:30
SPEAKER_00: Swim in the ocean.
40:31
SPEAKER_01: I thought you were gonna say that.
40:32
SPEAKER_01: Hit Bondi, hit or wherever, whatever surf.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: Just to float and uh to see my nephews and my niece is coming from London, so I've never met her, being that COVID's been on for such a long time.
40:45
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it should be.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know it will be magical to see the kids and um just float in the ocean until you can come back at night and lie there in bed and feel the ocean moving through you.
40:59
SPEAKER_00: It's it's still one of my favorite feelings.
41:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if there is a better feeling than that.
41:03
SPEAKER_00: And it's free.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: It's a free feeling, you know.
41:06
SPEAKER_00: You don't have to pay for that feeling.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: That is so true, Nick.
41:09
SPEAKER_01: And on that beautiful note and that imagery, I'd like to thank you so much for joining me on the What I've Learned podcast.
41:16
SPEAKER_01: I could actually talk to you for another hour because I find you quite, yeah, you're you're beguiling in the sense that you have a great sense of observation about the world around you, and you certainly do not look like um success has in any way saturated you.
41:31
SPEAKER_01: Quite the contrary.
41:32
SPEAKER_01: So I'm pleasantly surprised, and I'm so grateful for your time because I'm sure there's lots of people that want to talk and learn from you.
41:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you, Deborah.
41:41
SPEAKER_00: It was a pleasure to talk to you.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: Take care, enjoy that beautiful sunshine.
41:45
SPEAKER_00: And cheers.
41:50
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
41:51
SPEAKER_01: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly, with new episodes released every Tuesday.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: Love Dev.