Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / Should You Marry Them? How To Know If Your Relationship Is Built To Last | Love | E552

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Should You Marry Them? How To Know If Your Relationship Is Built To Last | Love | E552 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

• 0:06
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  Speaker 1: Without further delay, let's get on with the show.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: We feel connected, we love each other, but there's just
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: some hesitation for, okay, how do I move into that
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: next step?
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: This episode is for you if you are in a relationship.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: That is mostly good, right?
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: A lot of good there. Nothing is dumpster fire wrong,
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: but like all relationships, there's a little bit of a
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: mixed bag and you're at a crossroads moment.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Seen your parents in a loveless marriage, or you've seen
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: one of your parents being faithful to the other and
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: leaves a mark on you that makes it feel hard
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: to sort of trust that this person who you love
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: right now and who cares a lot about you right
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: now is going to maybe be there for the long haul.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Is it time to get married or move in together
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  Speaker 1: or have a baby? And how do you know that
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: this is the.
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  Speaker 3: One, this is the relationship that's going to last.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: You the rest of your life? that can be kind
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  Speaker 1: of paralyzing. And so on this episode of Love, Happiness,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: and Success, we are tackling that, giving you some ideas,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: some strategies to help you get clear about whether moving
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: forward is in fact the right next step for you.
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  Speaker 2: Sometimes folks that have a difficult time committing to a
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: career path or a degree plan or anything like that
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  Speaker 2: are going to have that same difficulty. you know, committing
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  Speaker 2: to a partner.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: By the end of today's episode, you are going to
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: have some clarity and some direction for how to get
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: those answers. If this is your first time listening, welcome.
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: I'm your host, Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: I'm a psychologist, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: a board certified coach here with you every week, unpacking love, happiness,
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: and success in all its iterations. And thank you so
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: much for being here with me today. If you haven't
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: done so already, please follow the show. Bonus points if
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: you leave a review. And if you connect with me
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: on Instagram, we can continue this conversation. This show might
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: not be for you right now, but it makes you
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: think about someone in your life who needs this guidance.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: And let's bring some light into their world. Thank you
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: in advance for sharing the show with whoever you think
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: needs to listen. So my very special guest today, you guys,
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: you're in for such a treat, is my friend and colleague, Dr.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Benjamin Jones. Ben is the real deal. He has a
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  Speaker 1: doctorate in marriage and family therapy.
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  Speaker 3: And he is a professor of marriage and.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: Family therapy at the University of Southern Mississippi. And he
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  Speaker 1: is also a very highly qualified doctor. couples counselor, relationship coach.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: He's a board certified coach like me, and he's also
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: a certified prepare and enrich premarital counselor, which means that
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  Speaker 1: he has specialized experience in helping couples make some choices
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  Speaker 1: about the next steps in their relationship and get on
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: the same page so that when they do move forward,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: they enter into a lifetime of love, not a new
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  Speaker 1: set of problems. So Dr. Ben, you're the guy to
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  Speaker 1: talk to about.
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  Speaker 2: Really happy to be here. Excited to talk about it today.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it really is. Because in my experience, I know
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  Speaker 1: yours too, this is one of the things that can
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: bring people into couples counseling, relationship coaching. Nothing is so
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: wrong that we need to end things, but is it
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: right enough to crank up the volume and start buying
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: real estate together? And it can be challenging. What do
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: you make of that?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think people undersell just how challenging that can
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: be on the side of counseling and Coaching, like sometimes
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: come in with a highly distressed couple. That's actually an
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  Speaker 2: easy path to work with. Like, right. There's a clear
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  Speaker 2: goal in mind. Or you come in with people that
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  Speaker 2: are saying, I'm getting married in 10 days.
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  Speaker 1: Or we need the certificate to bring to the office.
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  Speaker 2: And that's its own thing. Or we, yeah, this is
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: going to give us a $ 25 discount on our marriage license,
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  Speaker 2: if you will. So those happen occasionally, but there's that
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  Speaker 2: middle ground of like really going well. Yeah. We're connected.
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  Speaker 2: We love each other. But there's just some hesitation for, okay,
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  Speaker 2: how do I move into that next step? And I
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  Speaker 2: think that hesitation comes from a ton of places. And
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  Speaker 2: so that's part of what makes it so interesting and difficult.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, because like step one, what you're saying is why
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  Speaker 1: is this hesitancy? And I want to hear your thoughts
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  Speaker 1: about that. Maybe we should just start there. When people
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  Speaker 1: are like, when it comes to taking the next.
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  Speaker 2: Step, why?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think in my work, I've seen a whole
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  Speaker 2: host of reasons. A few that come to mind. A
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  Speaker 2: lot of times people have some unacknowledged. You've seen your
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: parents in a loveless marriage or you've seen one of
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: your parents being faithful to the other and it leaves
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: a mark on you that makes it feel hard to
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: trust that this person who you love right now and who...
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: cares a lot about you right now is going to
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  Speaker 2: maybe be there for the long haul.
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  Speaker 1: So what you're saying, it's not even about the relationship.
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  Speaker 1: It's like old, maybe even subconscious associations with like marriage
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  Speaker 1: equals doom and things are good right now, but if
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  Speaker 1: we get married then, okay. Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I see a lot of that. And even just some underlying,
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  Speaker 2: what I would call like decision paralysis sometimes, right? Like
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  Speaker 2: sometimes folks that have a difficult time committing to a
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  Speaker 2: career path or a degree plan or anything like that
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  Speaker 2: are going to have that same difficulty committing to a
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  Speaker 2: partner because it feels scary or like a big decision.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: It is a big decision. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: What about, I don't know, would you say commitment issues
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  Speaker 1: would fall into that category, just across the board having
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  Speaker 1: trouble making major life decisions? Or do you feel like
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  Speaker 1: what we think of as commitment issues is a different thing?
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  Speaker 2: I think it's a little nuanced and a little different.
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  Speaker 2: I think what commitment issues when I think about them
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  Speaker 2: in terms of relationships specifically, I think, yeah, it has
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  Speaker 2: all of that sort of context that I was just
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  Speaker 2: talking about. But I think it's also got the sense
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  Speaker 2: of a very real assessment of what's happening in that relationship.
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  Speaker 2: Because sometimes there are like red in some ways, like
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  Speaker 2: red lights make it very easy to know when to stop.
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  Speaker 2: Like a red flag is a red flag. It's a yellow, orange,
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  Speaker 2: beige stuff that people struggle with, but I think it
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  Speaker 2: makes it hard to commit, right? I don't love that,
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  Speaker 2: but it's probably okay. I think that falls into it.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, let's just share that to illuminate this because that's
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: such a good point. You and I know that all
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: relationships are multidimensional and there are good parts and there
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  Speaker 1: are boring parts and there are annoying parts, right? And
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  Speaker 1: I'm a wonder too, and I've seen If somebody has
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: a sort of ideal of what it should be, and
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  Speaker 1: then their actual relationship with an actual human is a
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  Speaker 1: little bit more complicated, it can make them question, is
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  Speaker 1: this the right thing? Is that what you're saying?
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  Speaker 2: That is what I'm saying. I think the thing that
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  Speaker 2: came to mind as you were talking is, as much
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  Speaker 2: as I love Jerry Maguire, that You Complete Me line
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  Speaker 2: has probably misdirected a lot of people. I've never actually
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: seen that movie, so you're going to have to explain
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: it to me. Oh, it's fantastic. There's this, okay, I'm
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: going to say spoiler alert, but I think the movie
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: is 20 years old. So you haven't seen it yet.
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  Speaker 2: But there's this scene at the end that builds to
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  Speaker 2: this sort of back and forth romance between Renee Zellweger
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  Speaker 2: and Tom Cruise's character. And at the end, he comes
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  Speaker 2: in and is trying to make this apology and she
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  Speaker 2: just cuts him off and says, you complete me. And
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  Speaker 2: that's a famous scene from that, that film. or one
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  Speaker 2: of the famous scenes from that film, I think that
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  Speaker 2: idea is particularly harmful because I think most relationships from
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  Speaker 2: that perspective, it's can this person meet all of my
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  Speaker 2: needs all of the time? And no, they can't. Some
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  Speaker 2: of your needs, some of the time is really what
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  Speaker 2: you ask for in a relationship. And so I think
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  Speaker 2: that sometimes there's that unrealistic. Similarly, I feel that way
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  Speaker 2: when people say things like, That's the least helpful piece
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  Speaker 2: of advice you could ever give. Because if you're struggling
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  Speaker 2: to know something, that leaves you in a worse place.
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  Speaker 1: Than you were before. Because that is, I think, also
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  Speaker 1: really true. A lot of our, the unit of measurement
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  Speaker 1: that we use to make decisions about relationships is how
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  Speaker 1: we feel. And certainly early stages, there's chemistry, there's excitement
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  Speaker 1: and all the things. But then, especially like if you've
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  Speaker 1: been dating someone for, five years or cohabitating for seven years,
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  Speaker 1: you don't probably feel that same way. And so if
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  Speaker 1: you're asking yourself or expecting to feel, I don't know,
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  Speaker 1: what would you even say? And that's how we decide.
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  Speaker 1: But then it's so easy to question that or almost
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: argue with yourself or what do you see in your
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  Speaker 1: work or even in your life?
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  Speaker 2: It's okay to ask.
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  Speaker 1: I could talk about mine too.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Thinking about clients and thinking about my own marriage.
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  Speaker 2: I think the trajectory of that wife and I are
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: month out from celebrating 10 years and there's that there's,
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  Speaker 2: thank you. There's that trajectory and just what I would
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  Speaker 2: call depth that starts to matter as much or more
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: than that sort of spark flame part of things. And
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: so for couples in that situation, that's one of the
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: things I always want to mind. Has this relationship stalled out?
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  Speaker 2: Have you stopped growing together? Are you just Netflixing every
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: night and no real conversation? Or can you look at
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  Speaker 2: this person and say, man, I know you so much
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  Speaker 2: better than I knew you two, three years ago. And
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: I still really trust this person. I still really want
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: to be with this person. I mean, I get the
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: butterflies when they walk into the room that I got
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: early on, but I get something different. I get this
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  Speaker 2: depth of sort of the honor of being the person
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: that gets to know that person well. And so I
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: think if that part is there and the only thing
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: holding someone back is that feeling part, I think that's
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  Speaker 2: one of the ideas I try to massage is feelings
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: are important, but there's a lot of other metrics that are,
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: you know, pointing to true north in that situation.
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  Speaker 1: And what you're talking about, I think, and this is
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: so helpful, even just as like a decision-making, right? What
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: you're talking about is perhaps a process where you're, getting
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: clear about your values and thinking like, what is really important?
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  Speaker 1: And if you are, the things that are fundamentally important
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: to you are actually present. Like someone is, you admire
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  Speaker 1: and respect them and they're interesting or fun and there's
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: that growth, right? You feel like there's development instead of
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: stagnation or whatever else is important to you. You and
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: I are talking about our things, but for somebody listening,
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  Speaker 1: it could be completely different. That is more, enduring. Is
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  Speaker 1: that the right word to use?
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  Speaker 2: I think so. What came to mind for me as
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: you were talking is in that sort of area of
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  Speaker 2: like what I call like core values, relationship alignment, some
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: things have a lot more weight than others, right? So
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: if you have a couple that's one person's Jewish and
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: one person's Catholic, you can probably figure out how to
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: go to synagogue and how to go to mass and
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: have conversations about what's for your family. If you have
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: someone that says, I don't want kids, full stop, and
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: someone else that says, I've always wanted kids. When those
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: people start considering compromising on that so they can be
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: together long-term because they want to be with this person,
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: that is a really, that's a tough road to walk.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: And so I think some of those things, particularly the
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: things that then define what is life going to look
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: like for us, right? It's not just, it's not a
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: small thing. We're talking the decision to have kids or
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: not is huge. For a lot of people setting a 40, 45.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: That's a great point. Well, no, because what you're saying
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: and just to say this out loud in words is
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: that in order for this to air quote work, one
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: of you has to fundamentally change yourself in some big
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: way or let go of something that is deeply important
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  Speaker 1: to you for this relationship. That's that is maybe the
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  Speaker 1: biggest red flag.
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  Speaker 2: I think so, and I think it scares me more
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: when it's couples that sort of move quickly towards marriage
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: because if you're still in that initial firework phase, in
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: some ways that's a really... You're in.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: An altered state of consciousness.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. This is not what life is going to
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  Speaker 2: feel five years from now when you want kids. Yeah,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: those are some big factors.
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  Speaker 1: Then just to ask for someone... listening to this, who's
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: in that situation and is like, okay, is this my person?
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Am I ready to go all in? If they wanted
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: to begin uncovering some of this and making that explicit,
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: that can be hard to do. Do you have any
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: activities or recommended actions or even books? And of course,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: there's doing this work with somebody like yourself, right? There's
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: the easy button. But for somebody to have a next step,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: even just after listening to this podcast, how might they begin?
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, and this would require meeting with someone,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: but like I use the prepare, enrich assessment a lot,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: which that assessment can be offered by a lot of
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: different people. Like therapists can offer it, coaches can offer it,
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: church small group leaders can offer it, a wide net.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: And you don't have to necessarily commit to long-term work,
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: but what it gives you is this really incredible report
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: on your relationship across nine, 10 core value areas, personality differences,
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: stress profiles, how flexible the relationship feels, how close the
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: relationship feels. And that can be just this invaluable way
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: to put some metrics out because sometimes people, I think
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: just want that last little, am I sure? Is this
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: really okay? And my, are other people seeing this too?
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Or is it just me? And that assessment can say, no,
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: there is some real depth here. I think it's, terms
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: of reflective activities my favorite question to ask people is
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: do you want to want to move forward with this
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: person right because even if you can't get to a
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: place of saying i want to do this the answer
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: to that question tells me a lot because if you
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: yeah because if you want to want it then to
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: me whatever we're trying to move out of the way
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: at that point is something that Okay, let's unpack.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: This a little further, Dr.
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: Ben.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: What would be an example of that? So you're saying
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: that you're identifying the but.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Okay. I think so. A little bit, but also just
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: someone sitting across from you with some ambivalence from the
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: relationship and saying, I love this person. We've been together
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: for five years. I just don't know why I'm having
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: a hard time committing. Then the answer to that, okay,
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: you're not saying you want to get married right now.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Are you saying you want to get to a place
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: to get married to this person? And that tells me, okay,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: then let's figure out what exactly that last hesitation is.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: And I think for a lot of people, it's this,
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: what I would call a misconception. I'm looking for certainty
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: when the metric ought to be confidence. I think, is
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: this a person I can trust? Because I had a
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: professor in undergrad who would tell us a story of
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: taking students over to his homes. And he had a
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: picture of his wife in her wedding dress, like above
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: the mantle, like when you first walked in. And he'd
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: been married to her exclusively, right? One marriage. But he
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: would always walk in and went to it and say
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: to the students, that's my first wife. And then we'd
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: talk about how like things had changed. He had come
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: to love every version.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: I just got chills, Ben. That's cool. Because that was
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: the first wife. Like that 22-year-old girl or whatever, she
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: is gone. Yeah. Yeah.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. For sure. Can you figure this out with this
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: person when you are in some way different people, right?
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Can you continue to stay in love, fall in love,
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: care for each other? That speaks more in the like
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: confidence category than the certainty category. Because the other heartbreaking
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: thing is like I've worked, you work with couples in
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: this line of work where they have a really dynamic
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: relationship story. They have a really incredible beginning story. And
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: then out of nowhere, to one person, it feels like
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: there's an affair. And that wasn't in the script for you, right?
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: And so I think no one at that point is
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: predicting those things are going to happen. And no one
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: wants those things to happen. I think feeling like, okay,
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: who can I navigate hard things with? Yeah, absolutely. That
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: to me is really important.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: And then so what you're saying is that the other
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: side of that question, do you want to? Could help
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: illuminate the obstacle, certainly, but that could also be like, why?
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: Why do you want to? And then you're saying that
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: can illuminate some of these like character qualities that you're
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: saying that these are the things that are going to
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: endure even when someone is 20 years older and that
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: much saggier and not. going with you to music festivals
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: and riding around on the motorcycle anymore because we're home
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: with kids. So what is left over and having this
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: ability into that?
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think it's in some ways,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: it's not like who is dynamic with me right now.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: It's who's going to help me when I'm sick in
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: 35 years. Who's going to be, they're not probably bringing
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: me flowers every Friday.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: Good for you.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: I guess relationships. Sends you a letter every day. Maybe
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: that's your story. Maybe you're Ryan Gosling. But for the
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: most part, I think, yeah, trying to envision like, is
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: this a person who, when I look into my future,
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: even if things are hard, I know them well enough
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: that they're going to take care of me and they're
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: not going to walk away.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: That to me is one of the helpful things to envision.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: I think answering that question though, like that, do you
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: want to? that's where those things come up. Like I
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: was mentioning earlier, right? Like sometimes it's, Oh yeah, but
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: I'm this, my family's coming to mind and I'm thinking
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: about what I saw. growing up or I had a
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: friend that went through something terrible or my best friend
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: has some hesitations about this person, which as a tangent,
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: that's another thing I love to ask clients, right? When
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: you're the people in your life that care about you
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: the most. So your family, your friends, how did they
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: feel about this relationship? Because if you tell me they
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: all feel like, eh, then I, the people that care
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: about you the most want the best for you. And
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: so that's worth listening to.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: This has been fantastic so far. And we've done so much,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: I think, good conversation that I hope provides direction to
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: our friends here listening around how to start to get
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: under the hood. Think about values. Think about what's really important.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: How do you make these decisions if there's ambivalence by anyone?
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: understanding what might tip you into the side of the good.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: But we need to take a quick break. However, on
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: the other side, I would love to hear your thoughts
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: about another thing that you and I have both seen,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: a relationship that has a lot of strengths and a
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: lot of opportunity, but there are actually some issues and
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: maybe even some of those value pillars and the good
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: parts are obvious, but the hesitation is around problems that
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: haven't yet been solved that make it hard. to sign
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: up for this the way this is right now. Can
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: we talk about that on the other side of the break?
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Before my family acquired a skylight a couple years ago,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: it was absolute mayhem.
• 21:29
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• 21:30
  Speaker 1: All those school emails. So my husband brought home a
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: skylight and this thing saved us. It sits on the
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: kitchen counter. It syncs to everyone's calendar and pulls it
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: all in a place where everybody can see it. It
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: also gives you a dedicated email address where you can
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: forward all those school newsletters and it will automatically scan them,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: put all the dates in your calendar without you having
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: to do it yourself. Investing in a Skylight is one
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: of the easiest things you can do to support the love, happiness,
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: and success of your entire family. Families are better when
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: they're working together. And right now, Skylight is offering our
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: listeners 30% off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: slash LHS. Go to myskylight.com slash LHS for 30% off
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: your 15-inch calendar. That is M-Y-S-K-I-L-I-G-H-T dot com slash L-H-S.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: True story.
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: I got so excited about an idea I had for
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: funny therapist t-shirts that I could make them.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: But then I had a crisis. I was like, wait,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: how would that actually work? But then I thought, At shopify.com
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: slash LHS, I set up a free trial, set up
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: my storefront. Now the second a customer is ready to
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: pay for said t-shirt, checkout handles all of it. One tap,
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: the shirt's on the way, their details are saved. Shopify
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: runs the setup and the checkout so I can just
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: create and grow. With Shopify, nothing stands in between your
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  Speaker 1: idea and a real business. So make it one. Start
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: your free trial at shopify.com slash LHS. That's shopify.com slash LHS.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: We are back with my friend and colleague, Dr. Ben Jones.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: He is a marriage and family therapist, a professor of
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: marriage and family therapy, and a true expert in everything,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: not just premarital counseling, but also pre-engagement, helping people in
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: relationships decide if this is the one and if so,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: how to move forward and make it be a forever thing.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: And so on the other side of this break, Dr. Ben,
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: you promised to give us some of your insights into
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: The other reasons why people might justifiably have some ambivalence
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: about doubling down on a relationship if there are issues
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: that might need to be solved.
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I think you Google something like core domains
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: in a relationship and you get slightly different lists from
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: slightly different blogs and resources. But in general, you kind
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: of see this common overlap. We're talking about family. We're
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: talking about finances, faith, sexual expectations, conflict resolution, parenting, all
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: those things. And so I think talking earlier about navigating
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: the parenting piece, I think some of those are bigger
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: than others. And so I think for a lot of people,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: it's getting clarity around, okay, like what in this matters
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: to you the most, right? And what are you maybe
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: able to compromise? Because someone who grew up in a
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: really wealthy family might have some ambivalence about marrying a
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: public school teacher, right? Because that's just so far outside
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: of the realm of what felt comfortable. Oh, I saw
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: my dad making tons of money in business. Can we
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: be comfortable? And that might be an area where, yeah,
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: life can flex and life doesn't have to look like
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: four vacations a year to exotic locations. It can look
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: like a quieter... Suburban love. Suburban love, right? And that's how...
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: It should be a thing. And can be important sometimes.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: But like those areas, like one of the ones I've seen,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: I think, be the most problematic for couples outside of parenting.
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: The sexual expectations category. I know this is hyper specific,
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: but the couples I've seen it be like the hardest
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: for are couples where there's been conversations around monogamy and
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: whether or not one person would prefer a relationship that
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: includes some consensual non-monogamy. The other person doesn't. sometimes to
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: keep that person will say i don't but i'll get
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: there i'll want that and i have yet to see
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: that go well for a couple because it just creates
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: feelings of betrayal and not enough and so i think
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: again what that thing is if it's family if it's
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: faith if it's finances parenting i think that changes for
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: every couple right and for every person in a relationship
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: right it might not be One person might not care
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: about the finance question, but they have a lot of
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: feelings about wanting their family to grow up in church together.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: To me, an initial step for people like that is
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: to have them write out and identify what are those things.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: And essentially, when I look forward into my life 10
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: years from now, 15 years from now, what I want
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: it to look like, that tells me a little bit
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: about what I value. Now I've built that image of
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: my life. Is this person with someone that I can
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: see in that picture? Or are they miserable in that picture?
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Are they chasing around three kids they didn't want to
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: have and sexually frustrated and financially stressed? That tells you
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: a lot about the relationship.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: Or am I miserable in that picture? And this is,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad we're talking about this because the, I
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: must have children in order for my mission, life mission
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: to be complete versus somebody who's like, no, I do
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: not want to do that. That is so sad. clear
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: in a lot of ways that it's almost easier. Although
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: I have still personally had couples in premarital counseling where
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: I broached that. And she's like, no, I'm going to
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: medical school and I have this whole career they put.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: And I literally had the male partner sitting on my
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: couch who said, she'll change her mind. And I was like, oh, anyway. So,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: you know, that exists. But what you're bringing up right now,
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: I think is something that can be almost harder to
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: get into, which is The level of self-awareness that will
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: tell you, is this something that is a non-negotiable for me?
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Like the non-monogamy thing or to share a spiritual worldview
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: or to have certain life goals maybe around finance. There
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: could be so many things. And I think what is challenging,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: and even just from my own work with clients, but
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: for my own life, like, There are some things that change, right?
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: And that can be growth opportunities. People can evolve, but
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: there are some things that really can't. And that was
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: such a deep level of self-knowledge because I think that
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: especially when you're excited about getting married and you really
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: like a person and there's a lot of stuff, I
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: could see flexing in a way that is maybe in
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: opposition to that core truth like the example that you
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: brought up somebody being like okay you've been married sure
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: but that doesn't really fit for them or vice versa
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: that's hard ben yeah because how do you know yeah yeah.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: That's a really hard place to be in sometimes one
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: of the things i'll talk to couples about and that
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: is this worth compromising on is there's some things until
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: i would call it binary categories kids no kids there
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: are other things around the spectrum right of like How
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: much money does it take to be comfortable? Is our
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: conflict resolution strong enough? Can we work to improve that?
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: Those are the growth areas, I think, are really where
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: relationship coaching and counseling can thrive, right? Let's build the
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: skill set that's going to carry you through that. But
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: you can't build a skill set to change your disposition
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: towards those other things, right? And so that's where, and
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: I think one of the things I see, them, you
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: mentioned it with your, you know, the guy on the
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: couch saying she'll change your mind. If there's any piece of,
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: I even hesitate to use the word advice, but anything
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: I throw out, it's can't marry someone assuming change, especially
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: not the kind of change you want to see that
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: person's going to change, but maybe not in the way
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: that you're hoping. And then what do you do? Seven,
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: eight years from now when that has become abundantly clear,
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: you've started building this life together. It's really heartbreaking when
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: that happens. Because people enter those situations for all the
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: right reasons, right? It's like, I love this person. This
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: is who I want to be when I care about
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: them so much. But again, aren't in a point in
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: that relationship where that has started to shift to a
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: deeper exploration of what does life really look like more
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: further out?
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: So that to me is particularly important.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: That really is.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: Particularly sad. That's also one of the reasons why I,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: if I had any set box in this field, it
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: would be, let's stop doing premarital counseling.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: That is a good idea, Dr. Ben, for real.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Because the couples, yeah, my experience, and this has been
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: really sad too, the number of couples I've had that
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: have come to me, done Preparing Rich, wanted four sessions,
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: because four sessions is what their church required or what
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: got discounted their wedding licenses. And they'll tell me in
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: the intake.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Like three weeks from now.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know why I picked tax day. But yeah, like, oh,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: we're getting married in middle of May. Oh, you're not
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: going to make any different choices probably based on what
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: this assessment says. And then when you open that assessment
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: and it's got things that are bottomed out, it's really
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: heartbreaking to figure out. Okay. That's not great news. And
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: it's not a pass fail test on the relationship. So
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: it's still at that point, the machine is so in
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: motion that there's no shutting it down. Right. You've got
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: deposits being used. You've got family coming into town. Yeah.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: So trying to get as far ahead of that as
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: possible to me.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: That is such good advice because you're totally right. There's this,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: This outing that it turns into almost a performance art situation.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: There have been social posts and pictures of the ring
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: and everybody's excited and your mom is crying. And then
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: when you start doing this exploratory work and to just
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: walk into, ooh, yeah, maybe, can you really say that
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: this is, maybe we should slow down? And some people do.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: That takes so much courage though, because it's this, the
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: wheels of the machine start. And I have absolutely sat
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: with so many people as a therapist and they are
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: either divorce, divorcing. And that is a story that they
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: told me that they were 25 and they were excited
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: about the dress and the party. And this is the thing.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: And they had concerns that they were like, Nope, I'm
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: not going to entertain this because of all this other
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: stuff until seven, eight, 10 years later. There it is.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And at that point, I think it's... That's okay.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: I feel like I keep talking about movies. But there's the...
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: We Bought a Zoo. I don't know if you've seen
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: that movie.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen that movie either.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: Or Matt Damon. I just watch more movies. Okay. His
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: family buys a zoo. And it's like this big adventure thing.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: And there's a line in that movie where he's talking
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: and says something to the effect of, all it takes
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: is 20 seconds of insane courage to change your life.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: It doesn't take a huge thing. And I think about
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: that when I think about the couples that get that
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: kind of muse. Because I have had couples that have
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: made that hard choice of, okay, This is going to
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: cost us money. This genders some shame for people wondering
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: what happened. We're going to have to deal with that,
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: but we can't do this. And sometimes that decision gets
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: made two weeks before. And sometimes it gets made. I've
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: at least seen one couple where it got made closer
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: to two hours before.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: And so those are particularly difficult and those feel very permanent,
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Very hard to think about re-inviting people to your second
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: attempted wedding.
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: And so that also feels bad. If we're saying not now,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: we're probably saying not ever. That's how it feels to
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: a lot of people. But the point of the quote,
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: a reason that came to mind is like sometimes that
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: level of courage to say, okay, I am going to
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: bet on my self and my future self by doing
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: what feels awful right now. And it's going to break
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: my heart and break their heart, but.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah. So maybe we could just like touch on
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: this for a second, because I know that you have
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: seen and I have so many examples of people who
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: just kept on going. And now they have a horrible
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: relationship where nobody is having a good time. Tons of conflict,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: living separate lives, and there are children involved. And now
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: what are you going to do? And it's so hard
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: to see that, right? You and I, Ben, we have
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: so much perspective, having witnessed the downstream consequences. It'll be fine.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: But when you really think about, here's a reframe, we
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: love and respect each other enough to appreciate you more.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: For who and what you are, not seek to try
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: to change you and set you free so that you
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: can go have a happy life with someone who loves
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: you exactly as you are and grow into more of
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: who you are, as opposed to doing this with me,
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: where this is not going to end well.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: And do it before you get engaged.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I think it... Ugh. Yeah, that would be ideal. Yeah,
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: to make that call then. Because I think some people that,
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: for whatever reason... really want to hold on to a relationship,
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: there's some attachment insecurity or something like that makes it
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: cling to someone in a unique way enough that they
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: will alter parts of their personality or part of their preference.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: If that's the case, you're almost committing to a lifetime player.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: In your own life. Because, yes, actual LARPing. Yeah, lightsabers
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: and all. So you are, yeah, how do you, because
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: when you start to change or when that inevitably breaks
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: down and then your partner is, sort of entered that
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: relationship also on false terms.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, I have to say one more ultra depressing thing.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: And then we're going to take another quick break and
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: we're going to pivot. We're going to go back into
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: the light because we're going to talk about what are
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: solvable problems. Because I think that we've been talking, and
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: this is good because people need to know what are
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: the non-solvable problems. It's like, what's a stop sign before
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: you get engaged? We won't talk about solvable problems. But
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: I also just want to add one more thing that
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: I have seen on numerous occasions is that we're in
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: this situation. There are some of these like things going on.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: And I don't want to stereotype, but this is literally
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: what happens. It is a 37 year old woman who says,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: if I'm going to have a baby, this is my
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: only opportunity. So this is, this is what I got
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: and it's good enough and keeps going forward. But then
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: I think also the benefit is like to have longer
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: term relationships with clients over time. So like, I know
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: that woman when she was 37 and it was like
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: okay and then when she was 45 and then what
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: happens next and I think it's that like trajectory that
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: is and so just you know what if you know
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: you want kids and you're getting into your 30s and
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: you haven't found the person yet if it is within
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: your means I think it is such great advice to
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: try to freeze some eggs I know it's expensive I
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: know it's a lot but if that is a possibility
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: it's almost like It allows you to not feel forced
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: into a choice. It also, this is a great plug
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: right now, Ben, for if you're comfortable sharing the fact
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: that there are all kinds of ways to build a
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: family that does not require biological fertility.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely happy to talk. So my, yeah, my
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: wife and I have walked that path. And so we,
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: our daughter, the cutest baby, who is absolutely just the
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: most wonderful. I'm finding myself wanting to pull my phone
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: out right now and say, look at all these pictures
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: and have to remind myself it's not an environment for that. But,
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: but yeah, she's almost two years old. Wife and I
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: adopted her. We were fortunate enough to bring her home
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: from the hospital with us. And so I've been there
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: for the whole show. And adoption for us was something
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: that had always been like, we wanted to do that.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: That was on our hearts and that was part of
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: our plan. And I could talk about this for a
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: whole nother podcast, but yeah, it's just been such an
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: incredible pathway to a family. It's that bond and that connection.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: No, I'm getting my chills again.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: Jeez, Ben.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: But you know what? Let's actually have that podcast. So
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: why don't we come back and talk about that life experience?
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Because I think that is such a unique life experience.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: But I think that the headline here is that if
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: you are talking yourself into making major life decisions because
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: there's rules and shoulds and this is my only chance,
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: just stop, right? You have more options and do not
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: box yourself into something that's probably not a good idea
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: because of, this, this faulty logic.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: We need to take another quick break, friend. We'll do
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: this really quickly. And then on the other side, solvable
• 38:53
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• 39:14
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• 39:18
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• 39:21
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• 39:24
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• 39:28
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• 39:31
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• 39:34
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• 39:38
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• 39:41
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• 39:44
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• 39:46
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• 39:50
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• 39:57
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• 40:15
  Speaker 2: True story.
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: I got so excited about an idea I had for
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: funny therapist t-shirts that I could make them.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: But then I had a crisis. I was like, wait,
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: how would that actually work? But then I thought, At shopify.com
• 40:31
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• 40:35
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  Speaker 1: slash LHS. That's Shopify.com slash LHS. Thank you guys for
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: making some space for our valued sponsors. Without them, the
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: show would not be possible. And they are all values
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: aligned and organizations that I feel great about. So thanks
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: for checking them out. And now we're back again with
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: my friend and colleague, Dr. Ben Jones, a professor of
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: marriage and family therapy who does a lot of work
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: with people who are building healthy relationships or making sure
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: those relationships are in fact healthy. And so Dr. Ben,
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: in this final segment, I really wanted to speak with
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: you about some of the things that can give people
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: pause and right, that are also examples of solvable problems.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: If we do 6, 8, 10, 12 sessions of relationship coaching, pre-engagement, counseling,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, but like actively work
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: to have this be different, this could actually be the
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: relationship that we both want to be in because a
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: lot of the other big pieces are there. We just,
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: there's some other stuff that needs to get dialed in.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: What are some examples of that?
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I think about the difference between like a
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: preference-based set of things and a sort of skill-based set
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: of things. And so the skill-based set of things, I
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: feel like those are really workable in a relationship. So
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: you've got a couple that feels largely aligned. Things are
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: going pretty well. They're trying to make the choice about
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: whether or not they're going to make that next step
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: of commitment. But they feel like, man, our arguments, sometimes infrequent,
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: But when we have them, they don't go anywhere. They
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: escalate fast. We don't talk to each other for two days.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: And they think, man, that doesn't feel quote unquote normal.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: What do I do about that? Those sort of things,
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: I think, as a coach therapist, scare me a lot
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: less than the other things, right? Because there are a
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: lot of ways that we can learn in sessions and
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: in practice to communicate more clearly, to take breaks, not
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: stonewall each other, right? And to move forward in conflict resolution, right?
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: Can we repair and can we move on? Because the
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: question is not can we not fight, right? Because that's
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: I worry about those couples too when they say we
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: never fight. It's probably something you don't care about enough, right?
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: Because there should be a little bit of conflict here.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: But can we repair after it? Because the repair brings
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: you closer, right? This is a weird metaphor, but the
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: conflict then becomes like the piece of trash.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: It's authentic.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: More connection and It is authentic. Yeah. So I think
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: those sort of things to me feel very solvable. I
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: think I've seen couples make real progress too around like
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: some family, extended family kind of questions, right? Because in
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: that coaching or therapy, you can do some work of
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: like a little bit of differentiation to help someone figure out,
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: am I messed with my family? Am I depending too
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: much on them? And those things that might drive a
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: partner who has a different experience kind of crazy or
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: concerned them Right. As you talk about those things, you
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: really can start to see boundaries change and shift. And okay,
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to talk to mom about this. I'm
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: going to hold that in our relationship. I can commit
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: to that. You know, those sort of things.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. These are such great points. And just for anybody
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: who might be surprised about what me and Dr. Ben
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: are talking about right now, things like conflict and communication
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: and feeling frustrated, like those are frequently solvable problems. that
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: are skills-based frequently, like how do I handle this situation
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: in a constructive way? And let's practice this. I'll also
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: add to what you're saying. A lot of the work
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: that we do might be taking a look at where
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: each person comes from culturally in terms of their life experience.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: And I think that there can be a lot of
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: expectations around how things should be, like the right way
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: to do things that are very much a product of
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: your family of origin that are actually not true for
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: everybody else. And just even to have some of that
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: because frequently people are reacting to things that their partner
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: is doing that is different. And so almost that, how
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: do we create our own culture, our own normal, right?
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: And also being able to not try to change each other,
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: but actually understand each other, right? And Because that actually
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: takes away a lot of the conflict that can happen
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: if people were taking that personally or feeling frustrated that
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: should be different. And that kind of work, man, it
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: makes so much conflict go away. It really does.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: It does. Yeah. I think one thing that jumped out
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: as you were saying, I think also shifting the metric
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: from like in communication, there's a difference between communication. Right.
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: And it's OK to be heard. You don't have to
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: be agreed with. I think it's like the Gottman's quote, what,
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: 69 percent of problems are unsolvable or something like that.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: And so that's a pretty big number. It's a pretty
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: big percentage. And figuring out how to dialogue about that. Absolutely.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Write that down that people like we struggle with communication,
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: meaning that they do not agree with me. They do
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: not comply. That is not necessarily good communication. To your point,
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: it is. How do we understand?
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and honestly, there's so much spectrum there. One of
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: the first questions I ask couples in intake is, tell
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: me why you're here without using the word communication. Like,
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: I want to actually know what that means to you.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: I want to know. I get mad when they do this. Amazing.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: Okay, so those things are solvable problems. Also, I'll say,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: and I know we work with a number of colleagues
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: here at Growing Self for whom this is very much
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: a specialty, to a large degree, different sexual differences or
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: different hopes for Intimacy, like those can be developed. And
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: to your point, like if somebody wants a very different
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: structure around that or orientation, but this is something that
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: many couples do need to develop. Additionally, skills around emotional intimacy,
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: emotional safety. These are things we learn how to do
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: as adults. We don't, those batteries do not come included typically.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: So, yeah.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Even speaking to the value of communication. So I
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: have a couple that I have worked with who their
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: breakdown was they had a really healthy relationship. Everything was
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: going well, except one of them wanted to have sex
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: a lot more than the other. So it left one
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: feeling rejected, one feeling objectified. And one of the moments
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: that stands out to me from that work is a
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: session where we really slowed down and explored it. And
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: the one partner was able to say, I have some
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: stuff going on for me. I would, I want to
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: be more intimate with you. I just don't know how
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: to get there. And just her partner hearing her say,
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: I want this change the temperature of the whole room.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: And so it didn't solve the problem in the bedroom
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: in that moment.
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: But it did create some hope. So good. Those things
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: are solved.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: Examples of other solvable problems. And I will just share
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: my own life experience as well. Typically when people first
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: move in together or first get married, how do I
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: even describe this? It's like, there are all kinds of
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: agreements and how we handle things and who does what
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: that do not exist yet in the early stages of
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: a relationship. And that can cause a lot of problems
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: in terms of resentment or blah, blah, blah. But it's
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: almost every couple needs to just develop a, I don't
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: want to use the word plan because it doesn't have
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: to be that formal, but like, do we make the
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: bed or not make the bed, right? Like, When the
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: toilet gets cleaned, who does actually do that? Maybe nobody.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: It's fine.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: No judgment. And we don't, we have to figure all
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: that out. And that requires bumping up against what, oh, wait,
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: I thought you were going to do that. And that
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: can create so much friction in a relationship, but it
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: is a very normal developmental stage for every relationship. So
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: if you're experiencing that, that's okay. and a solvable problem,
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: unless it's the conflict around, oh, we want really fundamentally
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: different things 10 years from now. And that's why we're
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: butting heads. Would you agree or see it differently?
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I distinct. I'm thinking of my own life. And
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: so I remember vividly No, Morgan and I got married
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: in kind of late, my late 20s. And I remember
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: the first time she went out of town on a
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: girl's trip. And I texted her like two days out
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: and I was like, do you clean up that thing?
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: Because I was like, this place is a wreck. And
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm doing. She was like, yeah,
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: kind of. We do. And so I think especially you
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: model that after what you saw in your family.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: You know, Ben, when I go out of town, I
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: come back and my husband, this place is so much
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: more organized and less chaotic than it usually is. We're
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: just fine because the gender stereotypes is that men fall
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: apart if a woman isn't there to run the show.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: And that is not always the case, at least exhibit
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: A right here. So, yeah.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: For sure. And yeah, I think the harmful version of
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: that is the, it's all complicated, but the narrative of, oh,
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: this is what my mom did. So that's what my
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: wife wants to do. That's not.
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's not helpful or workable.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: Or appealing.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah, that's how it came to, yeah, exactly. So,
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: but I'll have to say, yeah, those things are things
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: you don't think to talk about on the second, third,
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: fourth date. Yeah, definitely.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: And so then on the home stretch here, we talked
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: about so much stuff, Dr. Ben, and this is so valuable,
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: but even that last part of somebody listening to this
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: and being like, oh, okay, the stuff we're dealing with
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: probably are solvable problems. that they might like to have managed.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: Like some people think, I do actually need to have
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: evidence that this is going to get better before we
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: move forward, which is valid, right? But what would be
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: the next step? Would you advise that would be a
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: reason for somebody to come into relationship coaching or like
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: the type of pre-engagement, whatever we're calling it, but like
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: getting into alignment, working on themselves, right?
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's absolutely what I would recommend as a first
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: step because... You can get a self-help book and you
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: can do chapter discussions across date nights. But if you're
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: not sitting with someone who is this neutral third party
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: who can help guide the process, you're not getting always
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: honest feedback on that. And sometimes people think, oh, I'm
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: going to do this forever. Sometimes all it takes is six,
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: eight sessions to get a lot of clarity. It's not
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: this huge. doesn't have to be this huge. Yeah.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: That's what happened with my husband and I, when we
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: first got married, we were not having a good time because,
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: and it was a lot of that, like the things
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: that we were talking about in that unsolved, that the
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: solvable problem category that hadn't yet been solved. And I
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: think that we did literally eight sessions of counseling with
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: somebody and like totally changed the trajectory. And so it
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: does not have to be a big deal, but it
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: does have to be meaningful. And so it's, I think
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: what you said earlier, it's such a lost opportunity, honestly,
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: when somebody's coming in wanting the certificate so they can
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: get $ 25 off the marriage and you're like, dude, take
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: this opportunity to do some real work. What is a strength?
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: What is a growth opportunity? And let me help you
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: so that this winds up being good. Because these solvable
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: problems also don't solve themselves typically. In my experience, they
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: tend to get worse.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: They don't.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: No.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: That's the other misnomer of people sometimes think, oh, time
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: will fix this. Time might take the edge off, but
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: it's not going.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: To fix the problem. So that is certainly very important.
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: And then Dr. Bennett, I would advise you to look
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: for a licensed marriage and family therapist. Vastly different from
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: a garden variety therapist. Most psychologists, licensed professional counselors, licensed
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: clinical social workers, fantastic people and may be highly effective,
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: but they are trained in individual therapy. What Dr. Bett
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: and I right now are talking about is relational dynamics therapy.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: systems theory. And there's a, then you have a whole
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: doctorate just in marriage and family therapy. This is a
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: different thing. And many people don't realize that. And then
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: on top of that, what we're talking about really is
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: utilizing a coaching model, which is figuring out who you are,
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: what do you want, and then what do we need
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: to do to make it happen? And is this developmental
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: or are we bumping into things at a values level?
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: And that's a different thing, but that's also a very
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: different perspective and way of doing this work. And so, Ben,
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: I know how humble you are. You're not going to
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: say this out loud yourself. So I'm going to say
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: it for you. This is what you do. And so
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: if anybody listening to this conversation needs this, you can
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: schedule a free consultation directly with Dr.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: Ben.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: Come to growingself.com forward slash. It's either Ben or Dr.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: Ben or you go to our search bar, Benjamin Jones,
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: and schedule a consultation with Ben. And he is the best. Also,
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: if you want some meaningful support getting under the hood
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: and figuring out what is a deal breaker versus what
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: is something that we can work on. Oh my gosh,
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: that is an investment in the trajectory of your life.
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: And Dr. Ben could help you.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: With that too. Amazing. All right.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: Ben, any final thoughts for our friends here with us
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: or did we do it?
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: I think we did it. We had a great conversation.
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: So hopefully all the listeners know exactly what to do next.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: Even just reaching.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, I loved it. Thank you so much for doing this.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: And I knew it would be a great conversation, which
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: is why I invited you on. And this is wonderful.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: But you do have to promise that we're going to
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: do this again. And we're going to talk about the
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: many ways to build a family.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: Okay. All right. All right, everybody.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: Thanks again so much for tuning in again. this love, happiness,
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: and success. Share this with somebody who needs to hear it.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: Follow the show. Connect with me on Instagram and get
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: in touch with me, with bengrowingself.com. And we'll be back
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: again next week. Take care.