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37. Motivational Interviewing: Guiding Clients Towards Change Without Being Pushy with Jeremy Keil · Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding

0:00
SPEAKER_01: What is this?
0:01
SPEAKER_01: Why is this?
0:01
SPEAKER_01: What is this?
0:02
SPEAKER_01: Why is this?
0:02
SPEAKER_01: How?
0:02
SPEAKER_01: Like they just go at you.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: That's not an interview.
0:05
SPEAKER_01: That's an interrogation.
0:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: And that's not a conversation, right?
0:09
SPEAKER_01: So part of the key of having great questions is asking less questions and make them open-ended questions, affirmations, reflections, summaries are other ways that you can communicate that you know what the other person is talking about or you're trying to understand what they're talking about without just peppering them over and over again with all these questions.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most, which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: Whether it's mastering discovery meetings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, hi.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: I should probably introduce myself.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: Let's dive in.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: So am I.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: So you and I have known each other for a little while now.
2:20
SPEAKER_00: Our paths have crossed, being in the speaking community in the same coaching cohort with Deirdrip and Nest.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: So we've come to know each other here for the last little bit.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I've come to appreciate about you and learning about you is not that you're a great advisor and not that you don't put out great content for your clients, but that you use a model that is near and dear to my heart, motivational interviewing.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: And so hearing that and knowing that about I am so glad that you're here to share your insights, your wisdom on not just what is motivational interviewing, like from a theoretical standpoint, but what does it look like as a financial advisor using it with clients?
3:01
SPEAKER_00: What is the client response?
3:02
SPEAKER_00: So I am so glad that you are here and so that we can have this conversation today.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: Before we jump in though, can you just share with everyone?
3:10
SPEAKER_00: I know who you are, but can you just maybe share a little bit more context, give a little bit more depth to who you are and who you work with, maybe client-wise?
3:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'll turn it over to you.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: There you go.
3:21
SPEAKER_01: My name is Jeremy Kyle.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: I've been a financial advisor for over two decades now.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: And I realized right away that I love solving the retirement planning puzzle.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: So I help people get ready for retirement and make that retirement transition.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: Developed a process that I call your retirement master plan, where I take people through the five steps I think they need to go through to uh properly retire, which is what I wrote my book about.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: It's called Retire Today.
3:45
SPEAKER_01: Create your retirement master plan in five simple steps.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I like to do.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: Help people get ready for retirement, feel better about retirement, and hopefully they'll learn a little bit more about uh their finances in the way.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: So tell me then, okay, how did you become interested in motivational interviewing?
4:02
SPEAKER_00: Because it's not widely known.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: Well, just in general, I mean, mostly in the mental health, the therapy space.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: How did you stumble upon it?
4:11
SPEAKER_00: What drew you to it?
4:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: So two things.
4:13
SPEAKER_01: One is that you and I have something in common.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: You're a psychologist married to a financial planner.
4:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm a financial planner married to a psychology major.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: My wife is an elementary school counselor.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: And so I was sharing with her one day how I go to all these conferences.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: And it's like every conference you go to, every speaker gets up from stage and says the key to success is asking great questions.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: And then they stop.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, well, how do you ask great questions?
4:38
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes they'll give you one or two questions, like these are the magic words, like your Harry Potter, like, this is the magic words, the spell to get people to say yes to you.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, no, how do you ask great questions?
4:49
SPEAKER_01: So I think I was sharing this frustration with my wife one day.
4:52
SPEAKER_01: She said, sounds like you need motivational interviewing.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, what is that?
4:55
SPEAKER_01: So she told me a little bit about motivational interviewing.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: Immediately thought it was great.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: This is how you ask great questions.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: It's a framework, it's a style of how you approach conversations.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: I like to say that motivational interviewing is a guided conversation about change.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: And what is financial planning?
5:11
SPEAKER_01: Clients showed up to your door saying, I want to make a change somehow, guide me through it.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: Let's have a conversation.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: Like that's that's what it is.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: So right away I got I took the online course, I read the book, taking the in-person and Zoom trainings.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: Everyone on my team, I have them go through the trainings on motivational interviewing.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: And it's just um, it's great to finally have a framework of how do we guide people through these discussions about big life changes.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's such a fantastic just definition, like high level, right?
5:41
SPEAKER_00: Is that it is, you know, a style, a framework that helps guide conversationally right clients towards change.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: I think that is so, so brilliant.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: So, okay, you kind of more or less, right, stumbled upon it with the help of your lovely wife.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: Indeed, I did.
6:00
SPEAKER_00: There.
6:00
SPEAKER_00: I love it when our spouses can, you know, just be helpful in that way.
6:05
SPEAKER_00: Clayton, years ago, and I was asking about couples' interventions when I kind of first started on this path.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: He was not helpful.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: So he was like, I have no idea how to help you.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: You're on your own.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad for you.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: Like your wife, your wife was helpful.
6:16
SPEAKER_00: Clayton's helpful in other ways, but not that way in particular.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: So I think that that is so wonderful.
6:21
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you mentioned that you have gone through a lot of the training there and have started to integrate it into the way in which you work with clients.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: So can we just start maybe kind of at that initial starting place of you took the trainings, you were learning about it.
6:40
SPEAKER_00: How did you go about starting to integrate motivational interviewing in these this framework into working with clients?
6:49
SPEAKER_00: Where did you start?
6:50
SPEAKER_00: Like what did it look like?
6:51
SPEAKER_00: Can you paint us a picture?
6:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna say that I, well, I came to it wondering how do I ask great questions?
6:57
SPEAKER_01: I learned one way that you ask great questions is you ask less questions.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: And so here's an acronym for you.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: The acronym is outside of the financial world, but the acronym in motivational interviewing is ORS, O A R S for open-ended questions, affirmations, reflections, and summaries.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: Now, those are four things you're supposed to be doing, and only one of them involves a question, and it's an open-ended question.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: So that's part of it is this thinking through okay, if we're trying to do um, I go to these MI motivational interviewing skills trainings, and people are talking about intakes.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: Like in the health world, everyone's got an intake.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, that's like a connect meeting.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, your connect meeting, your intake, right?
7:34
SPEAKER_01: People are talking about that.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: Just imagine if you went to the doctor or anybody and they just said, you know, what is this?
7:41
SPEAKER_01: Why is this?
7:42
SPEAKER_01: What is this?
7:42
SPEAKER_01: Why is this?
7:43
SPEAKER_01: How?
7:43
SPEAKER_01: Like they just go at you.
7:45
SPEAKER_01: That's not an interview, that's an interrogation.
7:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: And that's not a conversation, right?
7:50
SPEAKER_01: So part of the key of having great questions is asking less questions and make them open-ended questions.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: Uh, affirmations, reflections, summaries are other ways that you can communicate that you know what the other person is talking about, or you're trying to understand what they're talking about without just peppering them over and over again with all these questions.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: So remember ORs.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: We'll see if we get other acronyms today, but that's the one.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: Open-ended questions, affirmations, reflections, and summaries.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: And you should have less questions and more statements.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: That'll be a better conversation.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I found that clinically, like I would have clients come in and particularly couples, and more often than not, it was the male partner.
8:27
SPEAKER_00: And their assumption was that I was gonna fire off like a line of questions.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: And I remember one in particular at the end of our first session, I usually would do some kind of reflection of like, hey, like, you know, how was the last 50 minutes?
8:40
SPEAKER_00: Like, what was that like for you?
8:42
SPEAKER_00: You know, kind of just walking back through.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: And I remember him saying, you know, I came in here and I thought that this was gonna be like an interrogation.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: I thought you were just gonna fire questions and you didn't.
8:52
SPEAKER_00: And I was really surprised and relieved.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: And so, like, that's always stuck with me to your point of, you know, questions, right?
8:58
SPEAKER_00: We should not be firing them off like we're interrogating the person.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: And not that we ever intend to do that, but sometimes asking too many questions, right?
9:08
SPEAKER_00: As you mentioned, sometimes the bet is to ask less, right?
9:10
SPEAKER_00: That's the better approach.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: And I love the ORS acronym.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: I think that it's a fantastic framework to follow from just a conversation standpoint there.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: So you kind of started, if I'm hearing you correctly, started with the ORs, like implementing ORs.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: Like, where did you start?
9:26
SPEAKER_00: Was it in that like initial kind of connect prospect intake, quote unquote intake meeting?
9:31
SPEAKER_00: Did you just start doing it out the gate with like all clients?
9:35
SPEAKER_00: Like, what was your strategy for beginning to implement it?
9:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, one part is that it's a framework, it's just a new way for you to be approaching conversations to begin with.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: So this speaking to my wife, I came back from a uh motivational interviewing seminar and she said, now you're asking opening questions, like now you're reflecting to me.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: So like it just it just was coming off, right?
9:56
SPEAKER_01: It just it just was coming out.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: She can tell when I've been doing uh some trainings because I I've got a better conversation.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: So like, well, now you're a good listener, but that's that's all right.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: So it's just how you go about your conversation with everybody.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: And it does, though, feel more natural to start with the connect meeting because that's your first interaction with them.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: And that's your probably first time where they're they're showing up at your door asking to make a change.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: And that's what this is about.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: And that change might be changing their advisor.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's probably a big part of it.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: They're asking you to make some sort of change, whatever it is.
10:28
SPEAKER_01: And so that's a perfect time to start you know practicing these skills, getting getting used to these skills.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: It just seems like there's more opportunities there.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: Where if somebody walks into your office or you you click on the zoom, you say, What brought you here today?
10:40
SPEAKER_01: Right.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: So let's just let them open up.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: That's an open end question.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: That's an open-ended statement, really.
10:44
SPEAKER_01: Another question I like to ask is, well, what about right now made you start looking?
10:49
SPEAKER_01: Like, why did they wake up yesterday and say, I need a book with a financial advisor?
10:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh, because that's often a thing where they say, Well, I need to get my, you know, my affairs in order.
10:56
SPEAKER_01: Well, what about right now?
10:57
SPEAKER_01: Well, they'll tell you, oh, I got this pension uh paperwork, it's due in 30 days, or uh, I'm turning 62 and my dad died at 62.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: So I'd like to retire soon.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: Like there's a lot of things that'll um, there's a trigger.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: There's always a trigger.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's uh that's part of it is finding out what brought you here today and what about right now, what brought you here, like right now, today, specifically.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and you'll learn a whole lot and they'll get talking and they'll start telling you exactly what they want.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: And then your job is to help them get what they want, as well as what they need.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: They need a little bit too that is maybe different than what they want.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: I find that those early meetings are when we're trying out new skills, particularly conversation, like communication skills, the new relationships, those connect, those prospect meetings, they're almost the easiest ones because the client doesn't know you.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: They have nothing to compare, you know, your style or approach to, right?
11:48
SPEAKER_00: They they don't know.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: I know that when I've gone through, you know, trainings and wanted to come back and implement different techniques, you know, the new clients, right?
11:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, I feel so, I feel a little easier, it feels a little bit better, it feels a little easier to try this out with clients where I don't have an established relationship.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: Can you maybe tell me like how was it for you?
12:09
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it wasn't difficult or scary or hard, but how is it for you starting to implement this with current clients where maybe you weren't using all of the ORs?
12:19
SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe you weren't.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you probably were a little and you just didn't realize it because I think that you were probably really, really great conversationally.
12:26
SPEAKER_00: But how is it for you using it with your existing clients when you started learning this?
12:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the biggest thing or change I did with existing clients, and I think I already did this a little bit, was the first question on any agenda is what are your questions?
12:40
SPEAKER_01: Which is important, but I think beforehand it's like, what are your questions?
12:43
SPEAKER_01: These are my five questions.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: Awesome, I'll get to them at the end.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: Like, wait a second.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: Uh, they they give you, say, what are your questions?
12:50
SPEAKER_01: And they'll say, These are the three things I want to go through, and then ask them where would you like to start?
12:54
SPEAKER_01: So I think that that right there was helpful.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: There was a particular client of mine a few years back where he came in, his investments are a mess.
13:03
SPEAKER_01: He wanted to retire.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: He had no idea like how he could do any of this stuff, and he really wanted to take care of this small life insurance policy as well.
13:12
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, this is this is the least of his problems.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: And I asked him, what's on your mind?
13:16
SPEAKER_01: And he said, Well, I got to take care of this life insurance policy, and I gotta like figure out my investments in retiring.
13:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, awesome, let me help you with everything else besides that life insurance policy.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, we'll get to that.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: I kept saying we'll get to that because it it was very objectively not a priority.
13:31
SPEAKER_01: Like it's like you're talking about this$10,000 life insurance policy.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: You have$2 million, that's all a mess, and you don't know how to sign up for Social Security Medicare, how much money you can live on.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: Like, clearly it doesn't matter, right?
13:40
SPEAKER_01: No, it matters.
13:41
SPEAKER_01: It mattered to him.
13:42
SPEAKER_01: And a year later, he moved his investments out because I didn't take care of the life insurance policy, which it was always on my agenda.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, if we get to this, if we get to this, but me not paying attention to what he said was top of his mind, uh, as irrational as it was, it was top of his mind.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: And it probably delayed uh me helping him out with the things that objectively mattered more because he couldn't get that out of his mind.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: And so if I had just asked him before I took motivational interviewing after I met this person and after he left, uh, if I had said, where do you want to start?
14:12
SPEAKER_01: If he had said, you know, if I had just asked him that, where do you want to start?
14:14
SPEAKER_01: I want to start here.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: Great, let's start there because that's what it's gonna take to move on to the other things is to to go through what's first in their in their mind.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a great story.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a great story.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure that, you know, for um people who are listening, there maybe it hasn't resulted in a client leaving, but maybe it has resulted in just a rupture in the relationship that maybe they're not aware of.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: But I think that that's such a great story to highlight sometimes what we think is a priority or what we think matters, it might be different.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: And as you said, like maybe it's not entirely rational or like the logical place to start.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: But if that's what's important to the client, then our role in being able to help with that and you know, attend to that is important, it's important and it matters and it speaks meaning there.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so implementing with existing clients, right?
15:05
SPEAKER_00: Really some of the change was just on the upfront piece, like conversationally.
15:09
SPEAKER_00: And it sounds like maybe once you kind of got going, then it was, I don't know, smooth sailing.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: Did you those early kind of days?
15:17
SPEAKER_00: Was there were there any hiccups that you noticed or difficulties, whether it was with prospects or just existing clients?
15:23
SPEAKER_01: I'd say there's no difficulties because I went through and did the training, right?
15:27
SPEAKER_01: So I think anyone, and here's a little secret for the financial advisors out there.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: In the world of healthcare and mental health, things are a lot less expensive than in the world of finance, right?
15:37
SPEAKER_01: If you were if someone was supposed to say, like, let me do a financial training on motivational interview, two days, I'm guessing$997, right?
15:45
SPEAKER_01: That's that would be my price point for go teach people for two days uh how to do motivational interviewing.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: Go look online, it's probably$249, right?
15:53
SPEAKER_01: If you in the world of mental health, it's you you've got a nice arbitrage there for your financial.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we have our issue.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: We have some issues with money, let's just be honest.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: The mental health side of things.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: And we're not doing ourselves favor by you know uh lowering the cost of training.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's exactly it.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: So as a financial advisor, go just go out and spend two days with uh the mental health professionals that are teaching motivational interviewing.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: You'll get two days worth of training, you'll practice it, you'll be very, very confident when you go back into the field of talking to your clients.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: And so I'd say there was for me, there was no, it wasn't uncomfortable because I just learned it and I just trained on it.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: I was I was practicing it with others for uh two whole days.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: And so you just go back and talk to your clients, and that's just that's how you talk to them now.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: You you have the open-ended questions, and no one's gonna be uh mad.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: Like you just affirmed me, right?
16:42
SPEAKER_01: You you summarized what I said.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: No one's gonna be mad at you, right?
16:46
SPEAKER_01: Like you're asking me all about me now with open-ended questions, you know.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: Come on.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: Uh, so it's good, you're gonna be fine.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: There's nothing to worry about.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: You just go out to get the cheap training that's even better from the mental health professionals.
16:57
SPEAKER_01: It's uh motivationalinterviewing.org is a motivational interviewing network of trainers.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: And there's online, in-person, all kinds of classes out there.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: I'd say go out and start with the basic motivational interviewing, and you'll be off to the races, giving your clients uh a much better experience.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: Part of motivational interviewing is empowerment.
17:13
SPEAKER_01: Like people are there, not that people don't want to walk into your office and then walk out saying, wow, I learned nothing, but boy, is that person smart.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: Like that's not what they're looking for.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: They're looking for, wow, I really learned something and I feel so much better about the money decisions I made.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh boy, is that person smart, right?
17:31
SPEAKER_01: And you you you empower them up and they like you better.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a that's a good thing in the financial advisory world, and it's a better thing for the the clients to be more empowered and feel more in control of their their destiny, really.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, clients don't remember what you say, but they do remember how you make them feel, right?
17:47
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: Quote that, you know, we've it's floating around out there, right?
17:51
SPEAKER_00: A lot.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: And it's true, right?
17:52
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember a lot of the things that, you know, some of the people, important people in my life, but I do remember how people make me feel positively and negatively.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: So, okay, Jeremy, one of the things that I hear a lot are questions that sometimes I get or even push back.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: And I'm curious how you've handled this, or you know, just kind of what you would say, is that I'll have advisors who kind of struggle with this balance of I want to engage in deeper conversations, but like how do I kind of how do I do this?
18:22
SPEAKER_00: And also blend the technical side because sometimes we just have to, it has to be like technically focused.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: Like we have to walk through, you know, numbers and like talk strategy, like and all of this.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes there may just not be time to sit here and have like a 45-minute, like open-ended like conversation.
18:41
SPEAKER_00: How do you balance that between you know asking, going through like the ores, but also like the technical side of things?
18:50
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I mean, two parts.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: It's a guided conversation.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: Like you are in charge, you are the guide.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: They showed up for you to guide them through it.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: So don't think if you ask one open-ended question, they're just gonna, you know, blather for an hour, right?
19:02
SPEAKER_01: That's just not gonna happen.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and if it does start happening, we'll start using some of the other skills like affirmations, reflections, and summaries.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: You are the guide.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: You know, if they're kind of going on, you can say something like, You've put a lot of thought into this.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: I see you've done this, this, and that.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: Would you mind if we take a look at this, you know, other area?
19:19
SPEAKER_01: Or or I think this relates exactly to one of my points on our agenda.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: Would you mind if I start going through that?
19:24
SPEAKER_01: Right.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: So you're you're using a summary to both let them know, okay, I I understand exactly what you're looking at, and you're also using it to kind of guide them over towards that that technical piece.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: But you also ask permission because if they say, well then they're they're you're don't go there.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but they'll probably say yes.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, yeah, that's great.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for keeping me on track, right?
19:44
SPEAKER_01: Um so you can you can use those reflections and summaries, I think, to to kind of guide it and uh shorten some things that need to be shortened, but you know, don't cut them off if they're they're crying about uh something, right?
19:55
SPEAKER_01: But most of the time you're gonna be you're gonna be good where you can just kind of summarize them through to the the next thing.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: And that permission part makes a lot of sense of when you you want to make sure that they're kind of tracking with you.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: And if you say, Oh, you know, do you mind if I do this thing?
20:09
SPEAKER_01: Do you mind if we uh take a look at the screen and uh see how this fits into your picture, right?
20:15
SPEAKER_01: And when they say yes, they're gonna be way way more engaged, and you're also gonna know, okay, yeah, they're they're in they're in it right now.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: Like this is they're they're with me towards this uh technical piece.
20:23
SPEAKER_00: I love those transitions that you just gave examples of because I think you know, sometimes advisors can be reluctant to really like take charge and like own the meeting, you know, and use transitions like, okay, I'm gonna let you process here and then I'm gonna, you know, make this connection like back to the plan and from a permission or willingness standpoint, you know, you know, actively like really engage.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: What I have learned is that good financial planning meetings are incredibly active.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: Now, the guide, if you will, the practitioner, right, the advisor, they have to play an active role.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't mean that you have to be the one that is talking the most, but it does mean that you have to really own the meeting, you know, and be able to, as you said, guide, you know, I know that comes from the MI world, but really guide that conversation strategically, right, to where, you know, yes, we're processing and yes, we're building, you know, some trust equity here, but we're also attuning to like the numbers and like the plan side to make sure like that comes that that's discussed as well.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: So I love all I love all of those transitions.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: I think that those are really fantastic examples.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, you know, we've talked a lot about like your side of the things, your side of the like relationship here.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: What's what have you noticed has been the client response since implementing MI, since going through these trainings?
21:52
SPEAKER_00: How have how have your clients responded?
21:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:54
SPEAKER_01: Before that, you just said the word I'm curious, that phrase.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: That's a great phrase to start with.
21:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm curious.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Is a great uh kind of starting question.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: Or on the opposite end, where sometimes people are saying, All right, this is I want to do this thing, and you're like, You don't you don't want to do that thing.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: That's a bad idea.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, and you could say, I'm curious what led you to that conclusion, right?
22:15
SPEAKER_01: So that's one, and then they'll tell you, and then you can say, Well, thanks for sharing.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: I concerned though, what I've seen is this, and people don't want to be told they're wrong, but they do want to hear if you've got a concern, right?
22:28
SPEAKER_01: And so you could say that idea about uh cashing out your simple IRA and paying a 25% penalty is a horrible idea.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: You could say that, or you could say, I'm curious uh what made you want to do this, and then they'll tell you and say, Well, I'm concerned if uh about uh the tax penalty.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: Have you looked into that?
22:44
SPEAKER_01: Well, I haven't looked into that, right?
22:45
SPEAKER_01: So don't tell them the wrong, express curiosity and concern on there.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: So you said the phrase I can't curious.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: I thought it was perfect to I say it, I say it a lot.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: I say it a lot.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: That's definitely a with it, therapy thing, I think.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: It is, it's also a lot of practice.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: Now it just comes very naturally for me.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: And I don't, you know, when you um I'll say called me out on it, like I was like, oh, I did.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: Like I I had not really realized it, but some of it is it just comes natural.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: And so in saying that, my hope is is that you know, for those listening, starting something out new may not feel very natural, but over time, right?
23:21
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm sure for you, like going through and walking through the oars right now is a very it probably feels organic and it probably feels very natural, but you've been putting in a lot of practice in doing that.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: So getting back to the client side, what have you noticed?
23:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I'm gonna give you the bad example beforehand uh and then the good example afterwards.
23:40
SPEAKER_01: So there is, I was at a uh a Christmas party and uh a friend of a friend, he's like, Hey, you sell life insurance, right?
23:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can help you with that.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: I just got married.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: We're having a kid, we need to buy life insurance.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: I said, Great, I'll help you out.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: Just you know, give me a call on Monday.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: He gave me a call.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: I met with him and his wife.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: They talked about how they need life insurance, and I said, Great, I think you need whatever the amount is, you know, a million dollars.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh and they said, Yeah, that sounds good.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: I said, I'll send you the applications.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: And so um, I sent them the applications and then they didn't sign, and then they didn't sign, and they didn't sign.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: And I called them up and I said, Hey, I sent you the applications.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: I you haven't signed it yet.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, we're just gonna go somewhere else.
24:20
SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, honestly, because I like you, I just want to tell you, uh, I just felt like you're really pushy.
24:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, like they asked me to buy life insurance, and I said, sure, here you go.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: And I sent them the applications, and that felt pushy because I didn't go through and affirm and reflect and summarize, and then I didn't ask them the permission.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: Uh, would it be all right if I sent you the applications?
24:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that would have, if they had said no, well, then we would have figured it out.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: And they probably would have said yes, but I told them I'm gonna send them these life insurance applications instead of asking them permission.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh, so that would have been a better uh outcome for them.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: Hopefully they bought life insurance.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if they did.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they might not have it right now, and they're still all living, but uh, you know, they they could be highly unprotected with their life insurance needs because I didn't bother to ask them permission.
25:07
SPEAKER_00: I just want to pause there because I think that story is a really great example of where you know I hear advisors are like, well, but that's what I would do is send them the send them the opportunity.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: What else do you think what else would I what else would I do?
25:20
SPEAKER_00: And the best of intentions, like the best of intentions.
25:24
SPEAKER_00: And you know, maybe this story maybe it wouldn't be or is not the case for every, you know, advisor all the time, right?
25:33
SPEAKER_00: But I think it one, thankfully the client shared that with you.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's yeah, it's you know, it's usually just ghosted totally and you get nothing out of it.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: Right.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: Like thankfully they shared that with you so that you just have uh some awareness there, some insight, even though I'm sure that was not really great to hear.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: And I don't even want to say that it was accurate, right?
25:54
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to even say that it was accurate, but at least from their worldview, like it felt that way.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: And so I I think that this story highlights even more so the point we were talking about before about asking for permission.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: Like, would it be okay with you if I sent you this?
26:10
SPEAKER_00: Would you be willing?
26:11
SPEAKER_00: What would be your thoughts if I did this?
26:14
SPEAKER_00: Are you in a place where you're ready for me to send you an application?
26:18
SPEAKER_00: Or do you need some time to just process?
26:20
SPEAKER_00: This would be the next step.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: Where do you feel like you are right now with being able to take that next step?
26:26
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of questions, right?
26:28
SPEAKER_00: That can come before the action of, okay, I'll just send you the application, even if that's the outcome.
26:34
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's a fantastic story.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, maybe for those listening, you know, if you find that, oh yeah, I am that one that the writing reflex, something that, you know, we talk about and motivate, like I'm the one that just jumps to like fixing it or giving the solution, which makes total sense.
26:51
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, from a human standpoint.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like it makes total sense.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: But I think this highlights why sometimes just pausing and taking a moment to pause and ask a few maybe more questions, or maybe just one more question can really lead to hopefully maybe better out, maybe better outcomes there on the client side.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that's the bad story.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: Please tell me the good story now.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: So uh got another client uh who thankfully I like just graduated from intermediate motivational interviewing.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: And then my next meeting was with this lady who is a widow, you know, which means you get some life insurance.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: Also means you hang out with a bunch of other widow friends, like you kind of get like this sisterhood going.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: And she knows that she's in a better financial situation than most of her other widow friends because she had the life insurance and and things like that.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: And I met her afterwards, so this is it wasn't because of me, right?
27:42
SPEAKER_01: That's just she came in from there.
27:45
SPEAKER_01: But her daughter is graduating high school and she wanted to take this big trip, and she was just having this guilt about basically using her dead husband's money to go on a tropical vacation.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: So a bit of like, I'm I'm literally using the life force of my dead husband to go on vacation.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: And also, I know that I'm somebody that can do this, and most of my friends probably can't that are in a similar situation.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: So she came to me and said, you know, here's the thing, my daughter's graduating.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, and well, first off, I said, What other questions do you have?
28:12
SPEAKER_01: So I we talked about like all the financial stuff.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: And she's what other questions do you have?
28:16
SPEAKER_01: She said, Well, here's the deal is I I want to go on this vacation.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: I just don't know if I should or not.
28:22
SPEAKER_01: And I could have just been a quick financial advisor, nerdy guy, and said, Well, how much does it cost?
28:28
SPEAKER_01: And let me plug in the the uh the system.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: And yes, you're you can take it.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: Go ahead, right?
28:33
SPEAKER_01: I could have given her the math answer, but she wasn't asking for the math answer.
28:36
SPEAKER_01: I asked her, you know, what makes you, you know, kind of what's what's the debate?
28:40
SPEAKER_01: Like, what's your uh what are you torn between?
28:42
SPEAKER_01: And so didn't she just describe to me, you know, this is my dead husband's life insurance.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: My friends can't do this, and I just know is it is it appropriate to spend you know, whatever ten thousand dollars on just a vacation and tell me more about this vacation?
28:56
SPEAKER_01: And she was telling me about well, it's where I went with my husband.
28:59
SPEAKER_01: And we had always said we wanted to bring our kids here, and we had talked for years that it was gonna be their graduation gift, was we're gonna recome here, and I just don't know if I should or not.
29:09
SPEAKER_01: And so I just kind of asked her questions and reflected about like you know, that's that's hard.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's gotta be hard to go to this place that you you he won't be there.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure it's gotta be I don't know, even embarrassing to go talk with your friends at coffee about this great thing when you know that they can't.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: And she's yeah, it is hard, those things.
29:28
SPEAKER_01: And then at the end I asked her, Well, what what would you like to do?
29:31
SPEAKER_01: And she looked at me, she said, I'd like to go on that vacation.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: And so she came and said yes.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: That's the financial answer because you can afford it.
29:38
SPEAKER_01: You know, I think she should have said yes, but I didn't impose my values.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: I just asked her, What are these two feelings?
29:44
SPEAKER_01: That's a big thing in the world of uh motivational interviewing, is ambivalence.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: Like you're you're stuck between two things, like I don't know which way to go.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: So I kind of asked her about both things, and that that helped her talk it out and come to the conclusion that she wanted to go, you know, she made that decision.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: She would have done it if I just said yes.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: Uh, like, yeah, you should go.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: Like she would have just followed what I said.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: I don't think she would have been as um kind of emotionally excited about it though.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: And because she talked it out, she was emotionally excited about it.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: She went, she loved it, she's glad she went, and it was a better outcome, better client outcome because of uh talking through the different uh the different framework.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: I think that's oh, I love I love I'm just kind of sitting with that story.
30:22
SPEAKER_00: I love it so much.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: And it look, I think you're right.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: I think likely she would have maybe gone with your advice, but I can't help but wonder if she would have still experienced guilt or if she would have even enjoyed the vacation as much if you had just told her versus her coming to that decision on her own, right?
30:39
SPEAKER_00: And it, you know, just kind of releases some of that emotional weight then for her, where hopefully she was able to enjoy it a little bit more than had you just told her to go and she followed suit.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's a wonderful way.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: And such a classic example of I think sometimes where advisors get trapped or pulled into, you know, implementing like that writing reflex.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, like they hear a problem from the client, and in their mind, it's okay, that's a problem they want me to answer technically.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: Like they want me to give them.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes the problem that the client presents is really not for you to solve or to answer, right?
31:22
SPEAKER_00: Going back to being that guide, right?
31:24
SPEAKER_00: It's to just help guide them through by through asking questions and reflecting, giving, you know, affirmations and like summaries and letting them come to the answer on their own.
31:34
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that is your role.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: Other times it is to give like the technical like answers and say, yes, you can afford this, right?
31:41
SPEAKER_00: Um, or no, you should not doing this would cause some issues with your plan.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think we should pause and not go that direction.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's such a wonderful example of conversation done well and done right.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: I know right sounds like a judgment, but you know, conversation like done well.
31:59
SPEAKER_00: It did, it did, yeah.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: Okay, Jeremy.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: So as we are sadly, sadly, sadly wrapping things up, you have shared a lot of fantastic just insight and wisdom, even um resources on there, which we will make sure that we link.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: But what advice would you give to an advisor who one, maybe, maybe they've heard of motivational interviewing.
32:20
SPEAKER_00: Maybe this is the first time.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: For those of you out there, if you've been listening to the podcast, you know that Derek Hagan came on at the beginning of the year.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: We'll link his episode to also explain motivational interviewing high level.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: But what would you say to advisors who are maybe considering, maybe they're in that contemplative state of change and considering looking into motivational interviewing?
32:42
SPEAKER_00: What would you say to them?
32:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'd say if you care about your clients making better decisions and you've got about 125 bucks, just sign up for a three-hour course.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: You can find, you can find them on the motivationalinterviewing.org.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: Just go learn about it.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: I think uh you probably, if you're listening to this podcast, you probably care about your clients making better decisions.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: And you also probably have about 125 bucks.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: It's well worth it.
33:08
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it'll make uh hopefully even make your your conversations at home uh even better, but it'll definitely make your uh your client conversations better.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: Clients will walk out of your meeting with Hughes saying, boy, he was really smart.
33:19
SPEAKER_01: And you said a whole lot less.
33:20
unknown: Right.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: I really like I really like that person.
33:23
SPEAKER_01: And and you just asked open-ended questions.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: You just had a better way to guide people through these conversations about money.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: It does that or's approach does increase likability as well.
33:35
SPEAKER_00: I've experienced that on the personal side.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: Like when I'm engaged in a conversation, I'm like, man, I like this person so much more.
33:41
SPEAKER_00: Uh why is I mean, truthfully, that's how Clayton and I ended up um together, is because he asked a lot of open end questions.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I'm gonna marry him.
33:50
SPEAKER_00: Done.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: Like this guy.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: That's how you get a wife.
33:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's how you get that's how you get a wife.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: That's smart.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: Um he's a smart, he's a smart man.
33:58
SPEAKER_00: All right, Jeremy, thank you so much for coming on.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: We'll make sure that we include those links as well as the link to your book.
34:04
SPEAKER_00: But where can people find you um outside of maybe the links?
34:06
SPEAKER_00: Where do you hang out?
34:07
SPEAKER_00: Where can people reach out and contact you?
34:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I'll just say about the book real quick.
34:11
SPEAKER_01: What's helped me is the fact that uh I've got a process to take people through.
34:16
SPEAKER_01: People do want to find someone that they like and trust, but also when you say, oh, this is the process that will take you through to retirement, that's very trustworthy.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: And so whatever it is you're doing, whoever it is you help, think of what is the process that I can take people through and then tell them that you have a process that you're taking them through and try to name it somehow.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: This is the this is the create your retirement master plan.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: This is the actually quame process.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I want I want one of those.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: Like that's it's a helpful thing for them.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: It'll help you in your your business.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: And uh, that's what my book is is showing people the the process.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: So you're you're a financial advisor.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: You might not need to retire today, but um, if you want to see kind of how I did my process, uh help people guide them through retirement, you can check out retire today at Amazon or it's uh my website, jeremykyle.com, J-E-R-E-M-Y-K-E-I-L.com.
34:59
SPEAKER_01: We'll take you there.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: And you can find me on LinkedIn and YouTube as Mr.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: Retirement.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: I like to get uh some financial content out there as Mr.
35:06
SPEAKER_01: Retirement.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: We'll make sure that we include all of that in the show notes.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: Jeremy, thank you so much for coming on today.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: It was such a fun conversation.
35:14
SPEAKER_00: And thank you to all of you for tuning in and allowing Jeremy and I into your ears and into your mind.
35:20
SPEAKER_00: If you found today's episode valuable, I would love to stay connected.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: You can follow me on LinkedIn at Ashley Kwamey.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: I don't think that there's many Ashley Kwamis on LinkedIn, so you can find me.
35:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm the one that works in the finance space.
35:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, you can also follow us on YouTube now where we are putting out uh short form and long form videos.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: You can follow us there.
35:42
SPEAKER_00: And you can also sign up and subscribe to our monthly newsletter at www.beyondthefp.com where we share insights and resources around strategies that you can implement into your practice.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: But most importantly, don't forget to follow the show because then you get notifications about new episodes like this one that come out every other week.
36:05
SPEAKER_00: And remember, most importantly, as you go out into your week, into your month, into your year, into all of your interactions with clients, remember that finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep growing, keep planning, and keep going beyond.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
36:33
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36:38
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36:44
SPEAKER_00: For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com.
36:52
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36:59
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37:03
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37:05
SPEAKER_00: And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing.
37:10
SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.