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Hines Ward: The Man Nobody Believed In · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Hello, and welcome to another exciting episode of Pittsburgh Sports Memories Podcast, where we look back at the former glories of Pittsburgh Sports, including some of our favorite players.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: As usual, I'm your host, Tim Steve Warton.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_04: I'm with I'm Tim Hannon, not you.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I know.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_03: I wanted to be you so bad, Tim.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: I forgot my name, name.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: What's my name?
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, Steve.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's right.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Steve, you're Tim.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: All right, we got that straightened for it.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: But we d there's no confusion of over whose Heinz Ward is.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: So um this is what we're gonna I'm gonna call the man nobody believed in, Heinz Ward.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, we're gonna look back at the career Heinz Ward.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's a fun one.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: He's one of definitely one of my favorite players, Steeler players of all time.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, he's definitely a Steeler great, and uh just one of those, like I think like he would have fit in with the Steelers in any era, and um, so we'll kind of get into that here.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh I'm we're not gonna go necessarily chronologically, I just kind of have a few little topics that we'll just go through and um we'll kind of just have fun with it.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um so just some background.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, if you were under a rock or just didn't know anything, uh Heinz Ward was born in Seoul, South Korea, and he was uh of a mixed race.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: His mother was Korean, his father was African American, and at two years old, um, I think the whole family, father, mother, Heinz, all moved to Atlanta, Georgia.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: And then I think after that, the family separated.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: His father went to somewhere in Louisiana and his mother stayed in Georgia.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: And so um after that, uh Heinz went to high school, and in high school he played quarterback, so that's definitely gonna be the position for the rest of his career, right?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: Right, Tim?
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: He's definitely just gonna be a quarterback, and that's it.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: No other positions for him.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh unfortunately, uh you know, as I guess all of us kind of know life kind of had uh other things in mind.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: He actually was must have been a pretty good baseball player because he was drafted by the Florida Marlins to play baseball, but it was like the 73rd round.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: Why does baseball have so many rounds?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: You don't I I I don't know.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's pretty far down the list.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_04: But I I did not know he was actually drafted by a major league baseball team.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_04: That's an interesting factoid.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: So he obviously chose to play football at Georgia, and he played wide receiver, running back, and quarterback.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: And um he in college, his sophomore year, I want to say, he played he played quarterback, and he he actually won Georgia, he beat Georgia Tech in a game, and um he didn't have terrible stats, but I wouldn't say quarterback was definitely his best position.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I think too, the coach at the time was Ray Goff, and he was kind of in desperate straights.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think he had a lot of injuries that year.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: Georgia was only 6-5, and you know, beaching beating Georgia Tech, I guess it was 1995, so Georgia Tech was probably still respectable back then.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean it wasn't like they had a great season, but um he actually played in the Peach Bowl at quarterback, and he did not have a great game.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: He had a lot of yards, but he threw a lot of interceptions, and so um they actually they lost to the University of Virginia.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know why they're playing so many ACC teams this year, Tim, but they were.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: So uh actually, fun fact, another fun fact, you know uh what former teammate played on that University of Virginia team, Tim.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_04: Uh it would have been too early for Heath Miller, right?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, way too early.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_03: Heath earlier was probably like in elementary school or something.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't it was James Farrier.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, okay.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think he threw he threw an interception to another linebacker, but I don't think it was James Farrier.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: That would have been funny if he did.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: And actually, the Barbers, I think Tiggy, Tiggy and Ronde both played on that team.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a there's a fair amount of star power between the two teams.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: And actually another fun one I saw in my research was Heinz Ward actually, when he played running back, was a running back with uh Terrell Davis, and I guess they put Terrell Davis and Heinz Ward in the backfield at the same time.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: And like so Heinz Ward was like a freshman, and Terrell Davis was a sophomore, and of course they had Terrell Davis at fullback, and I guess Terrell Davis at one point, I want to get some carries, and he told like he made Heinz Ward as like a freshman play fullback, and Heinz Ward weighed like 150 pounds.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe that that helped him learn some blocking that would definitely become a key part of his career as he went on.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_04: That's true.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Terrell Davis kind of quick took credit for that.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: I was watching a podcast with another podcast with him, but um I know Tim.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: I I cheated on our podcast.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um the bottom line is uh after that sophomore season, um, Georgia switched coaches to a guy named Jim Donin, who had who coached Marshall back to respectability.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: And um the new coach found another quarterback.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: And as it happens when they switch when you switch coaches, maybe he really wasn't loyal to Heinz Ward, or maybe he just didn't have a position for him.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: So Heinz Ward ended up not really having a home.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: He didn't really play much his last two years.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: He really didn't play much at wide receiver.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: He definitely wasn't a quarterback, and they really didn't use him in any way as a running back.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: So and Georgia had a fair amount of success the next three seasons.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_03: I think they won four bowl games in a row and had like 10 wins one year.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: So it wasn't like they were like in trouble and really needed.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: I think Heinz Ward more started at quarterback that one year out of like necessity more than like, you know, he was he was better than the other people.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_03: So which leads us to the NFL draft in Combine.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: So um there were a couple teams, I think Indianapolis, and there was another team that was interested in him, and uh he was expected to go, I think, on the the first or second round, but when they did a physical, um they found out that he had no ACL.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: And uh here he had been playing once I an ACL in his knee since he was a kid, his whole football career.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: And that made these other teams go away.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: Even the Steelers, there were stories that that Cower and um I think some of the other scouts had to argue with the Steelers medical staff about drafting him.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but it it you know it actually comes out to benefit the Steelers because they are able to pick him up in the third round.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember when they picked him up, they they kind of they kind of sold him as like a slash, like another Cordell Stewart.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: Would that have been uh what you remember, Tim?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_04: I mean they they were really into that back then, drafting these like guys like that on offense because they had Cordell and then Heinz, and a few years later it was Anton Randall L.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_04: So it was guys that that w had played quarterback at one point, and maybe they could play quarterback, but they maybe they could play receiver.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, you're right.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_04: It was that's the that's that was the thought.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_04: And and that third round pick, I think Steve was their second third round pick that year.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think and I think it was one of those supplemental picks because that sounds right, because it says the 92nd pick in the third round, so right, right.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_04: And and back then this the Steelers in the 90s always lost a bunch of free agents.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, okay, and this was one of those kind of uh Yeah, and it was one of those, yeah.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_04: There's their their first third round pick was Chris Conrad, an offensive tackle at pick 66.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_04: And then Heinz was the last guy picked in the third round, so he was like almost a fourth rounder, but that that wasn't a real pick.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_04: It was like one of those supplemental picks, like all the teams picked, then they threw an extra pick at the end of the third round for the Steelers because they had lost a bunch of players to free agency.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so that's how Heinz Ward Heinz Ward his first year, he he played a lot on special teams, and that's where he really thrived.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: And they did not the Steelers did not have a good season in '99.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: I think they were switching between Tom Zach and Cordell and Kent Graham, and that was kind of that whole mess that we've got over in other podcasts.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: So Heinz Ward, like, he worked really hard at being a receiver, but he really doesn't have a quality quarterback at that point.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: So he he goes his second year.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, I have him leading the Steelers and receiving his second year.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: His first year, I think he mainly played special teams his first year.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: And then his second year, he really got was their biggest receiver.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: But once again, the Steelers kind of this kind of starts the whole they don't respect me, they nobody believes in me, kind of attitude in Heinz Ward because it just like in college, this team is trying to replace him.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so the Steelers still went ahead after a second year, they drafted Troy Edwards out of Louisiana Tech with a number thirty that was a number 13 selection.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't realize Troy Edwards was that high.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that was that was a bad pick.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_04: That was a complete bust.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_04: It was a really bad pick.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't a complete bust, but it was not, he did not live up.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like, if he would have been a fourth round pick, once again, it's like his Terrell Edmonds.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: If he would have been a fourth round pick, he'd be like, well, it wasn't a great pick, but it's only fourth round.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's like it's a first-round pick.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: He should not be playing special teams and be out of the league in five years.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_04: Like Terrell Edmonds was at least a starter.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, Troy Edwards, you know, and then what what had happened that year was that they were just dead set.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_04: They had to have a wide receiver, that was their biggest need.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_04: They wanted to, they were really trying to invest in Cordell, they were trying to invest in, they had a new offensive coordinator in Kevin Gilbride that year.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_04: And and what had happened was the the top two receivers on the board were David Boston and Tori Holt.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_04: And both those guys got picked.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_04: And the Seors didn't seem to have like a plan B.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_04: Like none of those guys were available, so they reached for Edwards at 13, and it was a disaster.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: Is this pre-Kevin Colbert?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_04: Is this yeah, this would have been Donahue's final draft.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that's see, that that's the difference between Colbert and Donahue.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: Colbert never would have reached.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: He just would have taken somebody else that was better.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_04: Very good, very good point.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_03: So so then in the next year, they took um Plexico Burris.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good that ended up being a good pick.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: And um then in 2000, they I'm I don't remember Malcolm Johnson, but I do remember Danny Farmer.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: And neither of those neither of those Danny Farmer was not good.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: But once again, I think Danny Farmer was a late round pick, if I remember correctly.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I well they they had the middle rounds they added Malcolm Johnson in '99 and Farmer in 2000.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess those were all third or fourth round picks.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they kind of they were definitely rebuilding their receiving corpse.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I mean they they had they had gone to the Super Bowl with that group of like Ernie Mills, the NC Thigpen, Andre Hastings, you know, all those guys.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_04: All those guys were gone.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_04: And they kept drafting receivers, and they spent two first-round picks, high first round picks, uh 13 and an eight, on receivers, and then they were, like you said, they added more guys in the middle rounds.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I think to your point about Heinz and the respect thing, he's like, uh, what about me?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_04: I led the team in receiving.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_04: You know, like why why why do you why are you so desperate to get more receivers when you have, you know, what I think is a pretty good one.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think though he doesn't realize that it does take more than one wide receiver.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know, maybe he never felt that I've never heard him say anything negative about Antoine Randall, but I mean, I think you have to have more than two.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like having a good slot receiver is a good thing, you know.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_04: You need more than two.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_04: So if Danny Farmer is the pick in in the fourth round or whatever, that's one thing.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_04: But when you taking them in the first round, yeah, I think it's saying it he took that as a uh he perceived that at least as a slight to him because you know, if if yeah, if you need depth, fine, but you know, why do you need to take one in the first round?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: So bottom line is um by this in this point of Heinz Ward's career, he's languishing on the bench and playing special teams.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: And um, Bill Cower, I I I found an athletic story um it where Bill Cower recounted um that Heinz kept saying, Why don't I get a chance?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: And then Cower would respond, I you will get a chance, be patient, trust me.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: You and Heinz said, Well, you don't believe me.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: And Cower was like, Yes, I do.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: And Heinz Ward, well, why do you keep drafting these guys?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, not really giving him a chance.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: And you know what, to his credit, and people like Bettis said this and Coward said this, he never complained.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: Besides, like, besides that, he just went back to work and outworked the Troy Troy Edwards in the 2001 game was playing special teams, and Heinz Ward was starting.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I I just remember like Troy Edwards was such a disappointment, like he was slow and didn't have good hands, and that's that's that was a bad combination for any wide receiver.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_04: And he took that penalty in the championship game.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: He did, yeah.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: He was kind of a little bit of a case.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_04: That cost us a touchdown in the championship game against New England.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_04: So there was that too.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, Troy Edwards, wherever he is, was not a very good player.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um Plexico was, though.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: Besides the bonehead, I think that was too the Plexico spiking the ball when he wasn't down bonehead years.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: So um, yeah, you had that going for you.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: But uh Danny Farmer, I don't think even made uh made the team, did he?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think he made it out of camp.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever Sinoco Danny Farmer's working in, say hi to him for me.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um so moving on to another, like I I a trade I always thought Heinz Ward would possess more than like you would think of any other wide receiver would be toughness.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: And you don't think of like wide receivers necessarily being tough guys, it's more of like a diva fancy, like trying to think of like who's a fancy pants wide receiver.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: Who's a fancy pants wide receiver for a hundred, Tim?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I don't know.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_04: A fancy pants receiver.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_04: I mean Owens, I don't know.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah, I mean I mean if you're if you're if the point you're making is that Heinz.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_04: It's all about me, I guess, guys.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, well, yeah, there's there's lots of that.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, from that era you had Terrell Owens, you had Chad Johnson, you had Randy Moss could be a head case.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_04: You had a lot of divas, and you have them obviously today, too.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Heinz Ward was not that.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: So he he was definitely he in 2009 in an essay article, he was voted the dirtiest player in the NFL.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and he he was uh he got I don't know how this vote worked.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_03: He got 11.6% of the vote, and the next person down on the list was Albert Hainsworth at six percent.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: And then but to his credit, Joey Porter did tie Albert Hainsworth as the dirty, the third dirtiest player in the or the second dirtiest player, I guess, in the NFL.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what does that mean?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: 11% does that mean like it was just so split across the board that that was the highest they could get, I guess.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it was a player's poll, so there's you know however many players.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_04: So that's it just meant that out of all the play yeah, everybody had a different opinion.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_04: And that makes sense.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_04: If it's a players' poll, guys in the NFC that play Heinz Ward every four years probably are gonna vote for somebody, you know, that they see more often.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: Richie Incognito was on that list too, by the way.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: So fun times.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um they all rounded out the top ten.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh we'll have a link to that article there.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um in 2008, the NFL actually changed their rules because of it, him.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um during one of the games against the Bengals, uh, Heinz Ward did a like, I don't know, what did you call it?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: A crackback block?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: He hit Keith Rivers.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: Keith Rivers was pursuing the play to the sideline and didn't see Heinz Ward coming, and he hit him and broke Keith Rivers' jaw.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_03: So Paul Brown doesn't like losing money.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: And since his prized rookie linebacker was hurt for the rest of the season, he went, I'm cheap.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: So that was a it really wasn't about player safety.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: Did I say Paul Brown?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Mike Brown, whatever.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: Paul Brown's son, Mike.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, wow, wow.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: Paul Brown would have wow, wow, wad too.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, that was that game was at Cincinnati.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_04: I was actually at that game at Cincinnati.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um I I but we did a road trip to Cincinnati to see that game, and it was it was a brutal hit.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it was it was again, it was totally legal at the time because it just rivers was-cause Rivers is twice the size of Hines Ward.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: What are we complaining about?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_04: Well, Rivers just wasn't he had his head go in the opposite direction, he wasn't looking, and and Ward Ward got him with a block.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that defensive players, they they usually didn't expect that kind of stuff from a wide receiver.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_04: You know, they were probably more conscious of offensive linemen or tight ends, but but not wide receivers.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_04: So Rivers was just running the chase, whoever our running back was, Willie Parker or whoever, and and Ward just just caught him, and he was he was badly hurt.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, his you said it, Steve, his whole jaw was shattered, so that was a pretty brutal, brutal hit.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, not that Hines Ward didn't get his, too.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's he took a lot of hits too.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, if yeah, now Tim used to do top ten lists on the on the other website you had about the Steelers a long time ago.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I think the NFL stole your idea, or maybe they stole it from David Letterman.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I was gonna say top 10 lists probably existed way before either of us.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_03: So here, he was number four at players you love to hate.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: And here uh we'll we'll do a clip of that.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: Player love to hate.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: Heinz Ward.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_08: My kind of guy.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_08: Here's a guy that they would knock you out.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_08: Definitely deserves to do that.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_08: list.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: I I saw Heinz on.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know why they hate Heinz, because he takes cheap shots.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: All receivers take cheap shots.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: Players hated Heinz Ward.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_08: What are they doing?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_08: Cheap shots?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: When you talk to him privately, they hated Heinz Ward.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: But if you play with him, you love them.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: If you play against them, you hate him.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: He's one of those guys.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_03: Is this show players you love to hate or players that other players love to hate?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_08: In a 2009 Sports Illustrated poll, the number four player you love to hate was voted the number one dirtiest player.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: As a defender, you don't include wide receivers in your mental space.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Someone's gonna come and knock your block off.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: And here comes Heinz, and he's not going soft.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: He was going cheap shot you.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: When you walk past him that's six foot tall, he didn't look that big.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: But he played, he was a monster.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: You'd knock him down, he'd get back up, he'd smile at you, uh he'd come back on the next play and then knock you out.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there you go, Tim.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I so one of the voices in there was Chad Brown kind of saying with the point I made before that you're just you're not expecting a receiver to to be a guy that hits like that.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um and maybe it should be something that George Atkinson from the Raiders really like them.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't know.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that that says a lot.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_04: That's that's not necessarily a good thing.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I mean it it just he he played different than other receivers did.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_04: He played very physical.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of people didn't like that.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_04: And then certainly like the getting up and smiling.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that I could see if I'm out there and someone hits me, fine.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_04: You you you got a hit on me, and now you have this like smile on your face.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_04: I would I could see getting getting a little worked up over that.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, and a fun thing about that uh that top ten list, um, he was number four, so he was Tom Brady was only five at that time, so he was more hated than Tom Brady.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: And uh can you guess who number one was, Tim, unless you already saw.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_04: Uh no, I can't.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: It would have been one Brett Favre.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, interesting.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: And the entire Raiders were organization was number three, so fun too.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, good for them.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_04: Interesting.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean, Brett Favre, boy, I didn't realize people hated Brett Favre so much, but uh I I guess I guess it happens, huh?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's not who I would have thought would have been number one back then, but sure, whatever.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, also, like another thing, uh he that you'll see some of his highlights, you can look it up on a Monday night.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Game in 2007.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: He hit Ed Reed really hard.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: He like really crushed Ed Reed.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: And um the thing was the Steelers were like already leading that game by 30 points.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm not sure uh what the point of that was, but hey, uh he he hit Ed Reed.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_04: Well it was the Steelers and the Ravens.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's really the point of it.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_04: If that was the safety for the Lions or something, it wouldn't have, you know, but it was the Ravens.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: I I think too, like in the middle of the play while the play's still going on, like Ed Reed's obviously unconscious, and like it's Word's like waving to the sidelines already, and the play isn't it over.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: So um another play that Tim really enjoyed and we discussed on another podcast, um, was the play he made a play in a playoff against the 2007 Jags, um, which was in is in a playoff game, and he he like drew a penalty, a pass interference penalty to keep a drive going.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: Tim thinks he was cheating.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_04: I say it's just veteran gamesmanship, but yeah, I I think again Heinz always walked that line between you know dirty and and whatever you want to call the opposite of that legal or whatever.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_04: And and that that play was a good example.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_04: We talked about that in our Forgotten Stories podcast, so go back and listen.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_04: I won't go into it in detail, but basically he he grabbed the guy's face mask and then they called Jacksonville for pass interference.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_04: And that that not only kept the drive alive, that that put the Steelers in the lead late in the fourth quarter and almost won them the game.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_04: And Jacksonville came back and kicked the last second field goal.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: But which which they held Aaron Smith on and did not get caught.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_04: There was a misscall on that.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_04: So it it did even out.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_04: Arma, yeah.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_04: But I'm just saying that that that's one of those things where you know that that players you love to hate.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_04: Somebody else said in that clip something about, you know, if you if he plays for you, you love him.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_04: If he plays against you, you hate him.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_04: And I just if Heinz Ward would have spent his whole career in Cincinnati, we would have despised Heinz Ward, right?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_04: Or Baltimore or even somebody not in our division.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_04: We I it's just we were.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_03: New England, yeah, yeah.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, but we love him because he was a stealer.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: In that game against Jacksonville, he did have 10 catches for 135 yards.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_03: So outside of the penalty.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, he also, I always thought he was a clutch player.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: He had these great, um, he had a great 2005 AFC championship game against the Broncos.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: He he made a tough catch against Champ Bailey.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: I remember like Champ Bailey tipped the ball in the air, and then Heinz catches it, and it was only like a five-yard gain.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: But John Lynch, I mean, this is another time like you talk about Heinz Ward hitting people, like John Lynch lined him up and absolutely smoked him in a hit that would be totally illegal now.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: And uh to Heinz credited, he caught the ball.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: I remember Tunji Oaken saying after that catch that Heinz was tougher than Woodpecker lips.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_04: So that that play, I always thought that play, if you wanted to like summarize Heinz's whole career in one play, that that play was it because that was early in the game.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_04: So Denver, that that championship game was at Denver.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_04: Denver's strength that year was they had a really good defense.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_04: They they had Jake Plummer, they had a game manager quarterback, but they had a great defense.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_04: So if you can get a lead, then that's playing to their strength at home.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_04: And what happened on that play was the Ben threw the pass a little bit short, and Camp Bailey almost like ran away with it for a pick six, but Hines basically fought him for that ball and and like kind of tipped it to himself.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_04: And then as he's doing that, that gave John Lynch time to run over and, like you said, just totally clock him.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_04: So he like he fights, and Camp Bailey and John Lynch were two of the best defensive backs in the league, right?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_04: At the time.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: I would say maybe even all time.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they gotta be I mean, especially Champ Bailey.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: Champ Bailey's really good.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_04: Right, and and Lynch too.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_04: So I mean, you have these two all-world defensive backs, one he fights off the interception for, the other one he takes a hit on that could have made him lose the ball.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_04: And that was that was, I mean, it might have been like, I don't know, Steve, like an eight-yard game.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_04: Uh it wasn't a long game, but it picked up a first down.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_04: I remember that.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_04: And it and it kept Denver from you know potentially getting a defensive touchdown or even a turn, even just a turnover, because again, their defense, that's what they were trying to do was make splash plays on defense.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_04: That's how they were going to win that game.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, and then he he catches a touchdown too in that game.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you'll you'll talk about that next.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_04: But it I just thought that that play, if you wanted to sum up his career in one play, I think that was it.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_04: Just the grit.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it's like some of his stats I noticed in the play.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: I always thought he had more than these.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like sometimes he has like big stats, but it seems like in some of the games he had big stats, the Steelers lost.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: In some of the games where he didn't have as big a stats, the Steelers won, but he made like a key play.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like in that game, I think it I think I see he only has five catches for like 59 yards in that Denver game.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: But but he catches that touchdown at the half just killed Denver.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: That was the game.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: Because that was Bettis scores the touchdown, gets called back, and then they they Ben throws a pass that thinks is he thinks his interception behind catches in the back of the end zone.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: And that was that was the end of the Denver Broncos.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_03: That ended the Denver Broncos 2005 season, pretty much.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_04: It did, and that's not reflected in the stats.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_04: The the play where he kept Camp Bailey from getting a pick six, that's not reflected in the state.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's literally, I think, a five-yard completion.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: If I mean I didn't go back, but I know it's not a very long completion.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: And it's just little plays like that that was just just great.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then like continue, like even the Cincinnati game.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: I I have his stats here.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: He only has two receptions, but he does have a touchdown in that game.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: Once again, I think teams were keying on him.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: So like that was remember, Cedric Wilson had great games, and you know, some of the other nondescript guys.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like Cedric Wilson had a pretty good game in Denver.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: He he tore uh who's that Dominic Fosk Foxworth, the guy that's the commentator for ESPN.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: He ate his lunch.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: They they just had no answer for Cedric Wilson, believe it or not.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: And even the Indianapolis game, he made a big catch early on like a slant pass.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: I remember that that season.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: He had a really good playoff, and of course, Super Bowl 40.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_03: He had a great Super Bowl.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: He was the MVP of that.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I thought early in the game, I remember they were struggling on offense and they ran like a little end around, and that seemed to kind of jumpstart the offense a little bit.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: And uh he also had the game clutching touchdown, and um, I will play that video now.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: Little toss.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: Here comes a gadget play.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: Randall L.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: He can throw.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: He was a quarterback in college.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: And he's throwing a touchdown to Hines Ward in the Super Bowl.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: 43 yards, and sooner or later they're gonna run a gadget.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_07: And you know it's coming in this alumni area that I said is between the 40s, and you know that Randall L is going to be involved in it.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_07: It starts off with a reverse, he comes around and it becomes a reverse pass, and he throws a perfect pass to Heinz Ward.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_07: Look at they start in a bunch, and then he comes here.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_07: Heinz Ward coming all the way across the field.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_07: Randall L getting the ball out in front for him.
• 29:43
  unknown: But
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_07: We know that they're gonna do it, we know that around the level is going to be the game, and they're usually gonna do it around midfield.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um that was that that's like, you know, I guess become an iconic play, huh, Tim?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: And um the situation was I think the Steelers were leading by what, a field goal at that point, and uh they were inside the 40, in between the 40s, like Baden said, and um they run a gadget play, and Heinz Ward makes a catch on the backup safety for Seattle.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's a nice catch, it's a great throw, good call, and it's become a play that got us one for the thumb.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, defin definitely iconic.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_04: And and one thing that I even just just noticed watching it recently is that if you if you just watch the play, it looks like he's pretty much wide open and he ran like this perfect route and and and Randoval hit him in stride.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_04: He actually adjusts a couple of times while the ball's in the air.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_04: He kind of like zigzags a few times while the ball's in the air.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_04: So he actually made a really good job adjusting to where the ball was.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, imagine if that that play, he, you know, if that was a perfect call, he was wide open.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_04: Ken Winston Hunt made that call.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_04: But imagine if that throw doesn't land, you know, where it lands.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_04: So he actually even does a good job adjusting to get to the ball.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: And he had dropped a couple passes early in the game.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I think he had one where he was in the end zone and Ben hit him on the fingertips, but he just he wasn't.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: I remember in the the Super Bowl DVD said, Oh, I was thinking about my feet instead of just catching the ball.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean he had a great Super Bowl, and um it uh he and now there's a 2004 championship game, which was just a heartbreaker, and he had actually five catches for 109 yards and a TD, and that was a losing effort.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I couldn't find this anywhere, but I distinctly remember Heinzward saying after the game that Bill Belichick came up and said, if you're ever a free agent, I he like had designed a defense to stop him, and Heinzward still like had like a great day.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: He said, you know, he would take him on for a second on New England.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: So you think Heinz probably would have been a perfect player.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: Imagine him playing on New England.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my goodness.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, he just would have he would have been the Troy Brown, he just basically would have been a tougher version of Troy Brown, pretty much.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean so I mean I don't know.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: He's definitely way better than Troy Brown, but that's high praise though, coming from Belichick.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_04: And that was at the point in his career where he hadn't quite achieved the the stardom that he did later.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_04: That was before the Super Bowl and everything else.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I don't think anybody really outside you know NFL hardcore fans or people in Pittsburgh probably really knew much about him.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: So um he did get a ring in Super Bowl 43, but if I remember correctly, he was hurt that game and did not play much.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: He had two catches for 43 yards, though.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean that was really Santonio Holmes's Super Bowl, that second one.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I I believe it or not, I kind of forgot about this.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_03: He played in Super Bowl 45, and that was his third Super Bowl in against Green Bay.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: And actually, once again, seven passes for 78 yards and a touchdown, but the uh Steelers lost that one.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_03: That was more Mike Wallace's Super Bowl.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: But um, just like I think for the most part, just one of the more clutch outside of you know, and we'll compare him later to some of the other guys, but he definitely one of the more clutch guys, just to ever put on a black and gold uniform.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um getting into more like the the off the field stuff, um, after football, it just kind of shows the type of person he is.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like I don't think I think he's one of the the selfless players, like all for the team kind of guy, and just puts it puts it all out there, you know, a lot of hustle and just you know gets the most out of you know what he has.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, like I said, uh he he after the 2004 AFC Championship game, I remember I was devastated.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_03: I that was devastated.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_03: I don't I I thought the Steelers would never win a Super Bowl after that one.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: I just thought, you know, that was just such a great team.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_03: And then Bennis was gonna retire and Heinz.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_03: Hines like you know, goes in and gives this speech and um we'll play it for you now.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_03: Did he tell you that this this maybe his last go round?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_06: No, I mean he doesn't tell you, but you put it all on a lot and I mean it's a disappointing just uh I mean I wanted to win more for him, more than anything.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_06: Because he deserves to be a champion.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you can you can definitely hear the emotion there.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, and it it's it's a shame that like he was like you know that upset.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: But I think once again it's selfless because he doesn't he's not upset that like, oh boo-hoo, I didn't win a Super Bowl.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's like I really wanted to win one for my teammate, and you know, they've been on this journey together and just trying to you know win one for your team.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I think even in Rooney's book, I remember he said, you know, some a team has to have that brotherhood and that camaraderie, and you know, you'll you can have a good team, but if it doesn't have that, you don't normally win a championship.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_03: And um I think there's something to that.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: Pick Dan Rooney's been at the helm for five or six six Super Bowls, so I'm gonna take his word for it.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_03: He he always had that me against the world mentality.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_03: I guess that the local media kind of got fed up with it, but I I just think that's how he motivated himself.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: And if you got, you know, I mean, that annoyed by it, get over yourself.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't know.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I it it so I will to me it was annoying.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_04: It was just it was like at what point, I mean, you're the Super Bowl MVP, you know, you're definitely a household name.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_04: It does definitely in Pittsburgh, probably in the league.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_04: And it's just the constant, like, I'm not respected, I'm not respected.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_04: It it it it was annoying in in the sense of like it made you roll your eyes, but not in the sense of like to your point, Steve, of to me at least, of getting like really that upset over.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_04: And like whatever.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's it's roll your eyes, but if that's what he's using to motivate himself, it it seems to be working, and it worked for him for you know his whole career, really.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I maybe, maybe it would have been more wise to keep that internal and just not put that out in the media.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: I know the media wants uh to be every little thing said, especially I mean, back then it was probably easier to keep stuff to yourself.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: Now it's like, oh my goodness, they you know they want to know when you what you ate for lunch, you know?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's just crazy.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe maybe that'll been something that more internally would have been better, but it's what motivated him.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: And he definitely I think early in his career he definitely had a point.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_03: They were definitely people were trying to replace him.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_03: And good for him for not it's a credit to his character and a credit to his person that he was able to um you know overcome all those odds.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um after Super Bowl 40, um, I I don't know if I mentioned like I guess um persons of mixed race are not well accepted in Korean society.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: That was one of the reasons his mother had moved to the United States.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: And um he actually uh he went back to South Korea with his mom, and um they're both like even his mom would have been treated very poorly, and I guess was in the time they lived there, that when they came back there treated as heroes, they were like national heroes, you know.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, how many you know big time Super Bowl MVPs have come from South Korea?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not assuming there's many of those.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so I mean, good for him, and good for him finding his heart to forgive and for both be both parties kind of coming together.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: It was just like a feel-good story.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: It was one of those sports centers on a very special sports center, Tim.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, definitely a good story there.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, he lives in Georgia, and I always thought it was a funny story.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, he bought his mom a house and like was like, you don't have to work anymore.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_03: And his mom, like, nope, going to work.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_03: See you tomorrow.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: I got I think she worked in a school, it was like a cafeteria in a cafeteria.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_03: So it's just like it's like such such like a mom thing to do.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like, Bob, you don't have to work.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I have millions of dollars.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: Nah, I'm going to work.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, but that that's just how how his mom is, and it it it's funny.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, he even had a great kickoff return for the Gotham Knights, even though the stadium blew up around him.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, I'm referencing the Dark Knight movie.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_04: He already on the field collapsing, so he, you know, it was a good it was a it was a pretty good kickoff.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they always said he didn't have speed, but he did that time.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um he couldn't defuse that bomb with Bain, though, so maybe that's a strike against him.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I don't know.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: But um, that's of course, if you want to watch the Dark Knight, you know, that's have at it.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, he actually went into coaching years later.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_03: In 2017, he became an offensive intern for the Steelers, whatever that is.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: Was he giving getting like Todd Haley like coffee or something?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I I don't know.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: Pick up the balls and the towels after practice.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like, here you go, Mr.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: Haley.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, I don't know.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what he was doing.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_03: But he moved on to New York Jets and actually was an offensive assistant.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: He was a Florida Atlantic.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that was was that after the goofball Lane Lane Kiffin was there?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: And then um he had been he now is the head coach last season of the San Antonio Brahamas or Brahmas or real, I don't know.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_03: That was an XFL team.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_03: Unfortunately, they only went three and seven.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: So uh I don't know.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe we'll see more of Heinzward coaching.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: It would be nice to see him.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he was also in the executive for the Alliance of American Football, which is that defunct?
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's defunct, isn't it, Tim?
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_04: I'm pretty sure, but don't quote me on that.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_04: I don't keep track of all the defunct football leagues.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_03: Well, the USFL and the XFL's back, but I think the Alliance of American, like, how many football leagues do we need?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: I mean apparently two or three.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so now we'll we'll get into the Hall of Fame case.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_03: What is a Hall of Fame case?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_03: Is Heinz Ward a Hall of Famer, or are there too many Stealers in the Hall of Fame?
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_03: Because you know, each team has a quota of only amount, number amount of players are allowed the Hall of Fame.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_03: You remember that rule?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's right.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: Because it doesn't exist.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, the he's fighting he's fighting a couple of things.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_04: He's fighting the the perception that there's too many stealers, and he's also fighting being a wide receiver.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, why there's a lot of well, you're gonna go into this, but there's a lot of wide receivers that um that are still kind of waiting for the Hall of Fame that were pretty good, including Heinz.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I didn't I I'll go into people that are in the Hall of Fame, and I totally stole this from Ed Bouchette because Ed Bouchette, I don't know if Ed Bouchette, he was a guy who was in charge of getting Heinz Ward into the Hall of Fame.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_03: He's like each writer from they pick a writer from each NFL city, and they go into like a little conference with all the other writers every year, and each one presents a case for who they think is worthy to join the Hall of Fame.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_03: So this was Ed Bouchette's case, and I I I found it very convincing.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_03: So Michael Irvin is in the Hall of Fame, and his statistics are 750 receptions for 11,904 yards and 65 touchdowns.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_03: Andre Reed is in the Hall of Fame, although I remember it took Andre Reed a while, and he had 951 receptions for 13,000 and some yards and 87 touchdowns.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_03: That was over 16 seasons.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_03: And Art Monk, oh I always thought Art Monk was better than this, but he played a different era where they maybe didn't throw the ball as much.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: He only has 940, not only 940 catches, but he has 12,000 yards and 68 touchdowns.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: Art Monk's probably more comparable because I say Art Monk was like a very good possession receiver.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: So Heinz Ward, he caught a thousand passes for 12,000 yards and 85 touchdowns and was a Super Bowl MVP, which I'm not Michael was never Super Bowl MVP, right?
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_03: Neither was Andre Reid.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, Andre Reed never won a Super Bowl.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_03: They don't give Super Bowl MVP.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: Well, except for that one time they did, but normally not to the losing team.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um that's an post because that article will post a link to that.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't know, Tim.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, how does he fit in?
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, he's not Randy Moss for sure.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_03: Randy Moss was definitely a whole different breed.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_03: Larry Fitzgerald is definitely when's Larry Fitzgerald going to be eligible?
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: When did Larry retire?
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_04: So I think three more years.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think he was.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, if they don't put him in on the first one, then I think we should all drive the canton and give somebody a strong more strong-worded lecture.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_03: I will write a strong-worded letter.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_03: I can't see Larry Fitzgerald not getting in on his first try.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't even look up his stats.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like I said, I think I I think he's more comparable to Art Monk, maybe Chris Carter, like a more physical version of those two.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: But he had good hands.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: Chris Carter had better hands, but I think Heinz Ward definitely made tough contested catches.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um to his credit, Ward ended his career as the Steelers leader in receptions, yardage, and TD receptions.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: So it wasn't like you know he beat Stalworth and Stalworth's in the Hall of Fame.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: And Stalwarth was in the Hall of Fame, like what, as soon as he was eligible, wasn't he?
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_04: Well, no, he and Swan had to wait for a while to.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_04: That's what I'm saying about receivers.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_04: They just Terrell Owens didn't get in on his first try.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, and that was that was probably more because people just didn't like him, which is a dumb reason.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: Well, then he didn't even go.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_03: I don't blame him.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, if they're I I I I totally love that.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_03: He was like, Well, if you're gonna treat me like that, why why would I go somewhere I'm not wanted?
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: So good for him.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's kind of childish, but at the same time, it's like I kinda like it.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_04: Well, and that's there's so many problems with anytime you have something that's subjective, there's problems.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_04: But it has to be subjective.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_04: Because if you went by stats, like there's there's a hall of fame, I want to say like the LPGA or something.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_04: There's a Hall of Fame somewhere that it's purely based on like um a numerical achievement.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_04: And you could never do that in football because uh Yeah, how would what left guard?
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what sax allowed pancake blocks, you know, right.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_04: But even for receivers, you could say, like, oh, you know, a thousand catches or twelve hundred catches and this many yards, but it but that doesn't that doesn't tell the whole story.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_04: And some guys have longer careers and they amass more stats.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_04: Some guys have shorter careers and don't amass the stats.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_04: Some guys play it in eras like Stalworth and Swan, where they weren't throwing up the ball every play.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_04: And and then Heinz Ward, I mean, as you as you said, the Ed Bichette did a good job laying out how his stats are comparable to guys already in the Hall of Fame.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_04: But like we talked about with that 2005 AFC championship game, there's you look at that, you just look at a stat sheet, it's like, oh, I see he wasn't really involved in that game very much.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, he was.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_04: He he was key to that game, but you'd never know that by looking at a stat sheet.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_04: So you have to have a subjective process.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_04: You have to.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_04: But unfortunately, when you have a subjective process, then people's biases and things like that play in.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_04: So Tabrow Owens is a good example.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, he absolutely deserved to be a first ballot hall of famer, but he's kind of a jerk and people don't like him, so they just that that factored into them not voting for him.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_04: And that's that's so I don't know how you I don't know how you fix stuff like that because you it has to be subjective, but then people are going to be human and and you know look at things through a lens that might be clouded.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, I I I don't know.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_04: I I think he he has a very good case.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_04: I think he compares to those guys that are already in, and I think he did way more than just put up stats.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_03: So he when did when did I say retired?
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_03: Was it 2011?
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it was 2011.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_04: So it was his last time.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_03: I mean so when when is it I don't know all the rules anymore.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's only so many years you're eligible, right?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_03: And then you go into the veterans committee, don't you?
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_04: And that's probably his best chance of getting in is something something like that, like the the Veterans Committee, where I think that's more players, uh ex-players, I think, voting than media guys.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_04: So that's probably where he'll get in if he does get in.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, which is unfortunate.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like we said, um I mean I wouldn't compare like Larry Fitzgerald couldn't block like Heinz Ward could, but Heinz Ward didn't necessarily like Larry Fitzgerald and like Randy Moss to me are like probably two of the best wide receivers that ever played a game.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_03: And did either of them did Randy Moss ever win a Super Bowl?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_04: No, neither of them did.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_04: But I mean, Larry Larry did everything possible to win one.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, well, he played on an absolute crap team on like 12-0 and Super Bowl.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_04: He never had it, he never had a quarterback except for that one Kurt Warner, yeah.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I as I was saying except for that one tiny little strike of two years in his career, he never had a quarterback.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_04: And when he did, he again, he did everything possible to win a Super Bowl.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_04: It wasn't his fault that he wasn't on the field of play defense.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean, I don't know.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_03: I I I just I I like Heinz Ward.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_03: He's one of my favorite players, so I'm biased.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_03: Once again, there's that bias.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I love Larry Fitzgerald.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_03: I love I wish he would have got a ring.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_03: I wish he would have come to the Steelers at the end of his career and we could have got him like a, you know, like a who's that guy in hockey, Ray Bork, got like a lifetime achievement ring at the end of his career, you know, wee, look at me, I got a Stanley Cup.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_03: But it would have been nice to see him do that.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_03: Or Don Beebe was another guy.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_03: I always like Don Beebe, and he kind of got like a lifetime achievement Super Bowl ring at the end with the Packers.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I I you're you're right though.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_04: I think uh Fitzgerald, Randy Moss, Jerry Rice, those guys are in a in a different stratosphere.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not even mentioning Jerry Rice.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, it's just Jerry Rice was like more comparable to Randy Moss.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_03: Although Randy Moss had like longer arms.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, those those guys are in their own, you know, there's there's definitely a a top-tier all-time wide receivers, and Heinz, Heinz word isn't there.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_04: But when you compare him, like you said, to Art Monk and and and you know, guys guys are that.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_04: Chris Carter.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_04: Chris Carter's in the Hall of Fame, isn't he?
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but he had to wait a while too.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_04: So I I think again, I think there's a case to get him in at some point, but he, you know, we'll we'll see.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_04: I think I think you can keep making the case, though.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_04: I really do.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_04: I think he has a strong case, and I think if you watch him play, and you don't just go by stats, you know, he was he made a huge difference, and he was part of the Steelers' identity for all these years that they were in three Super Bowls and winning two of them.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I know you you kind of stole my point a little bit here, but he was definitely one of the best possession wide receivers, blocking wide receivers, made tough catches, made clutch catches, and then there's Antonio Brown, who I guarantee you will be in the Hall of Fame like in his first or second year of eligibility.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't care how many people he ticked off because you know why?
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_03: Because, ooh, I won my fantasy league because I had Antonio Brown.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you know what?
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_03: Give me Heinz Ward any day of the week because I don't care about winning fantasy leagues.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_03: I care about seeing the Steelers win Super Bowls.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_03: And that that and I think it's just that that plays into what you were saying is like people are like I I think sometimes people think other players like Antonio Brown is a total stats guy.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's all he cared about.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_03: He never cared about Super Bowls.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_03: He cared about stats, his stats.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_03: He got one Super Bowl when he glommed on with Tom Brady, and that's it.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_03: He was not, he was, he was just there as a contributor, not the reason they won the Super Bowl.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_03: The reason the Steelers won Super Bowl 40 is because of Heinz Ward.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that that just that's why I think I always preferred Heinz Ward over Antonio Brown.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_03: I know I'm in the minority on that opinion, but maybe not.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think Pittsburgh fans, Steelers fans, definitely like like a guy like him.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_03: I would have loved.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_03: Now here's something I would have loved to see, Tim.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_03: How about if if Heinz, we could have gone back in time, put Heinz Ward on the 1970s Steelers against those Raiders teams.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_03: I don't I don't think he would have been getting knocked out by George Atkinson, huh?
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he was definitely a throwback type of player.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, him and him and like he they put him instead of Lynn Swan, even.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my goodness.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_03: Boy, they that would have been fun.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_03: Him and Tatum going at it.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it was fun him and Ed Reed going at it.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_03: Never mind.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like some of the guys on the Raiders.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that'd that'd have been uh that'd have been interesting.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_03: And he always like that was another thing is Heinz Ward always seemed to like get in the a scrape of blocking with with guys that were way bigger than a la Keith Rivers.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_03: So um I that's that's my uh case for uh Heinz Ward going to the Hall of Fame.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um definitely one of my favorite players, one of my favorite Steelers.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um anything to add to our case for Heinz Ward here, Tim.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_04: I I think just like you said, um to me, football, yeah, the the point of football is to win, right?
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_04: Is to win a Super Bowl and to win.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_04: And I think there's guys that are great players that just aren't winners.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_04: You mentioned one of them.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_04: There's there's guys all throughout the you know, the history of the league like that that just great stats, great players, never won anything, and never were capable of carrying a team to win anything.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_04: And when you talk about the history of Steelers receivers, I mean Antonio Brown was maybe the most talented ever.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_03: He broke all of Hines Ward's records.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_03: He has all the records.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: But what but what I don't care.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_03: I don't care that you have the most receptions.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_03: You you have zero Super Bowls here, zero.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I care about.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_04: He was probably the most talented, but guys like Swan, Stalworth, Heinz, even Santonio Holmes, you know, those guys willed the CORC championships, and I think that's in the end, that's really what matters the most, to your point.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you for tuning in.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: Check us out on all the usual podcast uh places.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, thanks for tuning in, and uh, we appreciate your support and continue to give us likes, and uh word of mouth always works too.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_03: All right, we'll catch you next time.