Latest / From the Founding of the City Archives - The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies / Divide and Conquer
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to the partial historians. Dr G 0:15 We explore all the details of ancient Rome. Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad. Dr G 0:30 And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts. Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr G 0:59 Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. G. Dr Rad 1:08 And I'm very excited Dr. Racks are trying out a new setup. Dr G 1:12 This may or may not succeed, Dr Rad 1:15 it's gonna be the most interesting episode audio logically, Dr G 1:20 we want to say a huge shout out thank you to our patrons, because it is through their support that we were able to invest in some new equipment, and everybody's gonna hear the results for better or worse. Dr Rad 1:34 We are audio geniuses, of course, it's going to work out it's going to be amazing. Just your way. Yes. Now strategy, we are tracing the journey of hearing from the founding of the city. And I owe you and all of our listeners a big apology. Oh, did you break the history of Rome from the value of the city somehow I may just have. So last episode, I left you all on a cliffhanger, our dictator of 418 BC about to march out into battle. And I said I was finishing there because I thought we were heading into a new year. Turns out I was wrong. Oh no, I got confused. Because you see 417 and 416 are blended together. But 418 is in fact quite distinct. Dr G 2:18 I have terrible news for you. You're gonna have to hand back in your PhD. Dr Rad 2:23 I'll just be rad. I hate it. I'm sorry. All right. So when we do the recap, therefore this episode, I am going to not only recap what happened last time, but also add some more information. Oh, excellent. All right. Well, let's get into where were we up to in this narrative anyway? Well, so I believe we were up to 418 BCE last episode, and we ended up with some military Tribune's with consular power who could not get along to save themselves. Tragedy. Yeah, Look, you know, arguments abound, poor strategic decisions were made. It wasn't great. And there was a man who was the father of one of these gentleman Quintus Servilius. Sounds like I'm making fun of him whenever I use that V. But Dr G 3:12 I mean, that's his name. Dr Rad 3:15 I know, it just sounds funny. Like what does Servilius Dr G 3:18 Is he asking for ridicule? perhaps, especially if I add on Quintus Servilius, Priscus Fidenas. Dr Rad 3:26 So this guy had seen that there was going to be travelled because he it's actually only been what like maybe six or seven years, maybe eight Max, since we last had an issue where the commanders were arguing, and it led to military disaster for room. So he sees the writing on the wall, allegedly. And he basically makes sure that he and his son are going to be there and prepared to kind of step in and handle the situation, which he thinks is going to arise which is military disaster for the Romans. Dr G 4:00 This is a typical elitist plan. Not only is he going to get himself into power, he's going to bring his son along with him, and it's all going to be great. It does seem suspicious that he and his son are the ones that you know, come in to do the whole here we come to save the day thing. Dr Rad 4:16 I mean, yeah, I have some concerns. But you know, for 18 being what it is chaotic, fine, fine. Yes, exactly. So, essentially, the way that they did this is they made sure that not every available man had been sent out to face the Romans enemies who I should add the Aequians and the people of Labici. Dr G 4:39 The Labicani, Yes, who re entered the narrative as one of the sort of like surrounding neighbours, who was a little bit upset with Rome for the way that Rome has treated them over and over again. And I think from what you said last time, they've been nursing this garage for almost 100 years now, pretty much as soon as the Republic is started. They've been upset. Dr Rad 5:02 Oh No. Yeah, exactly. So in 418 BC last episode, we finished up with the dictator Quintus Servilius and his master of the horse, which is his son, therefore, another Servilius marching out together to face the enemy with fresh troops after things predictably not going so well for the Romans. Yeah, yes, coming in to save the day. Exactly. Now, I did hint that the Aequians were in for some trouble at the end of last episode because they had been doing so well against the Romans because you know, the Romans are just too busy fighting too will fight each other I should say then to fightthat they also started to get sloppy. the results of this was seen immediately. Dr. G. In the very first battle, you can see that the Aequians and their allies, the people of the Labicani are off their game, Dr G 6:00 A little bit of a mess, a hot mess waiting to happen in the Castelli Romani region. Dr Rad 6:05 Yeah, so the dictator Quintus Sebelius, he goes into battle leading hard with the cavalry, and the cavalry caused the entire front line of the Aequians to be disrupted. They're in chaos, Dr. G. Speaker 2 6:20 Well, a dictator shows up and everybody runs for the hills, basically. Now this guy is super hardcore, because wait till I add this detail. So once they've sent the frontlines of the Aequians and the leper colony into chaos, he orders that the Romans sort of quick march and just advance quickly, I guess the idea being sort of overwhelmed them as fast as possible. And apparently one of the standard bearers kind of like hesitates. Now, I don't know if this means he's like, Wait, left, right? Where are we going? I don't know what hesitation he's giving like, did he cry..? Dr Rad 6:52 Can we stop for for gelato? Guys, because I really need a break right now. Yeah, I don't know what the hesitation was. But whatever it was Servilius dictator does not take it kindly, and he has him killed on the spot. Dr G 7:04 I would have thought that would be a bad omen. The standard bearer is a very important person. They're looking after the standard. Dr Rad 7:11 I know, it seems so weird, but he was like he's getting cut down on the spot. Dr G 7:16 I feel like the Romans who had viewed that would be shocked and traumatised. Dr Rad 7:21 Well, apparently they're very excited. Dr. G. That's what they are very excited. Dr G 7:25 These people will never cease to amaze me with their horrors. Dr Rad 7:28 They're just like, You know what, we're just gonna give it our all. And so the Aequians and the leper colony quickly overwhelmed, they lose the battle, they flee the battlefield, they run back to their camp. Oh, how the tables have turned. Dr G 7:41 So you're telling me that in the time of you've got to like get the troops roused up somehow that the best way to do that is to kill one of their own? Dr Rad 7:48 Well, I don't know if they're excited because of the standard bearer staff. They're just excited because it seems that they're doing well, I think. Yeah, and I think they apparently invigorated by the energy of Quintus Servilius which is Stern. Dr G 8:03 So invigorating, exactly. Dr Rad 8:06 Silverfox Yeah, so wiliest, sir. Yes, sir. Yeah, so the Romans are able to quite easily also capture the camp of the enemy. And of course, within the camp, there are many spoils she had Dr G 8:19 Oh, booty, Dr Rad 8:20 It is bootay time. Dr G 8:23 I wonder where that leather armour went? Dr Rad 8:25 Yes. As we've often pointed out, because they are fighting the same people and over again, we really feel like their possessions are just in rotation. Dr G 8:32 It is tough out there. It takes a long time to make a full suit of armour. Yeah, of course, you want to steal it back. Dr Rad 8:37 So Servilius, I guess to show his gratitude says that the soldiers may have the booty Dr G 8:43 very generous. Dr Rad 8:44 I know, I know. Now the Roman cavalry. Meanwhile, they are hard at work. They are chasing the Aequians with the remaining ones, I suppose as they run away from the camp. They've just been running all day or stuff out there. I mean, they're in a hilly region. It's not like this is an easy run. I know. And they come back and inform our dictator Servilius that the remaining Aequians and the Labicani who've managed to survive the slaughter up until this moment are all hiding in Labici. Dr G 9:15 Yeah, fair enough. I mean, that's where I would hide as well with Rome's known enemy, who was also involved in the battle, but currently not being chased. Best place to hide Dr Rad 9:23 so the Romans march off to Labici The next day, have a good rest beforehand. They quickly encircled us letters to get over the walls and completely ravaged this city. Oh, yeah. It's all in a very. Dr G 9:39 I didn't even have a reaction to that. I'm just like, really? That's it? Dr Rad 9:43 Because Livy's very precise in his details here. So Servilius marches back to room with his triumphant army and once he gets there, he hands back his powers and he had been dictator live. He tells me for a total of eight Dr G 9:55 days. Wow, this is an exceptionally false cat. In pain I know, right? I mean, it would take at least until lunch on the first date of March there. Dr Rad 10:05 Yeah. So it's considering that it's built up as being obviously, you know, a potential disaster for Rome, typically a bit suspiciously. The Romans bounce back very quickly and very easily. Dr G 10:15 This is their way they love a good bounce back is it's Dr Rad 10:18 just the way that the history has been written. Dr G 10:24 I cannot possibly comment at this time. Dr Rad 10:27 I demand answers. Now, obviously, we actually finally have a bit of expansion on our hand strategy, Dr G 10:35 do we we do Oh, my goodness. And still in 418? Yeah, Dr Rad 10:39 yeah. This is Oh, 418. Oh, yeah. So the Senate concerned because we now have the city of Labici in our evil imperialist clause. But there are concerns because you know, who else would like to have Labici? Dr G 10:56 Is it the Aequians? No. I mean, the people who used to live there are lots Dr Rad 11:02 of people that would like to have it. But I mean, within Rome. Oh, nice. Like to Dr G 11:07 have people who would most like to have it in a row? Yeah. The military traders who control the power, Dr Rad 11:12 kind of, but the people that the Senate are most concerned about are, of course, the tribune of the plebs and the people themselves. Wow, that makes sense. Yeah, they're very concerned that they're going to start buying off all this new land that's coming in from the Labican territory, so they very quickly hold a meeting and determined that they will establish a colony Dr G 11:34 there. So land distribution is not on the table. Well, Dr Rad 11:38 I think that's what they foresee. And they're like, No, Dr G 11:42 that's not on my what Dr Rad 11:44 No. So 1500 colonists are sent from Rome to this new colony. And they are apparently given five eighthsWe of an acre. Dr G 11:54 Well, that's pretty good. That's more than people get today. Dr Rad 11:57 Well apparently, my commentator thinks that the amount that is specified in Livy, would not be enough for a family to survive on and therefore, it's not really correct that he thinks they would have been given a lot more. Dr G 12:12 Yeah, it is problematic. It might be enough for one person to grow some things but I don't know if it's enough for self sufficiency for a family. Dr Rad 12:21 Yes, my commentator thinks that this amount that Livy's specifies must be more in reference to where his household gods would reside. Like this is the area in which his household essentially is being established. Dr G 12:37 Ah, as in the building itself. Yeah, Dr Rad 12:39 I guess so. Yeah. And this is like his little sacred land sort of thing of his of his skins. interesting theories. And that is actually where for 18 Should Have Ended? Dr G 12:53 Well, under those circumstances, I'm willing to give Rome one more gold eagle for their expansion. Dr Rad 13:00 Exactly. I mean, they're still gonna get it, they're just gonna get it a bit later. But that takes us into 417 BCE for me, Dr. G. Would you like to tell us who the magistrates are and I should say, I think we probably should go through 417 and 416 together because in my account, they are treated as really one in the same Dr G 13:22 foreshadowing. Dr Rad 13:32 Hey, listeners, do you enjoy awkward family dynamics, relationships between mortals and gods? Then you will love our book Rex: The seven kings of Rome. Rex is newly available in an ebook in the Amazon Kindle store and also on Gumroad however, if you're keen to get your hands on a printed copy, we still have a few left, and they are now being sold through Abby's bookstore in Sydney. And thanks so much to all those who've already bought a copy we really appreciate your support. And now back to the episode Dr G 14:20 is 417 bc we have military tributes with concealer power. So first cab off the rank Publius Lucretius Hosti Tricipitinus I do not like this name. He has returned and I still don't like it. Dr Rad 14:42 Ironically, Tricipitinus does not trip off the tongue. Dr G 14:46 No, no, indeed. Previously military Tribune with consular power in 419. So very recent that we've had this sort of horror of pronounciation upon us He is joined by Agrippa Menenius Lanatus, also previously console in 439. And also previously military Tribune with Triciptinus that old chestnut in 419. So these two it's like being reunited for our whole new adventure. Dr Rad 15:17 It is interesting that he had a gap of 20 years seemingly between holding magistracies Until Tricipitinus. Is is on the scene a year Dr G 15:27 raising suspicions about Roman naming conventions. It might be fair enough. And we also have Gaius or potentially Lucius Servilius Axilla, or Structus. This guy we don't know. I mean, he's all over the shop name wise. But the good news is that he's on year three of his hat trick of military tribune with consular power. Not that he got to do much the previous year because he kind of got swept up in the whole being master of the horse instead business. Yeah, so this is the son of our dictator. This is the son of our dictator. So he was the one who was hanging around as the master of the horse in Rome. Last year. Yeah. For 18. Yes. The name confusion continues on Sky is a tricky one. Yeah, there is also Spurius Rutilius Crassus. I know offer this with massive question ma indeed, because it seems more likely that the fourth guy is not a Rutilius Crassus but is a Spurius Veturius Crassus Cicurinus. I mean, I don't know. But the problem with it being a Rutilius Crassus is that this is very much a plebeian name. Yes. And we're not there yet, as we've established. Many and many scholars don't agree on many things. But one of the things that they tend to agree on is that this is way too early for them to actually be a plebeian in this role. Dr Rad 17:03 Unless, of course, it's all crap. And the Roman state isn't established the waiver and said it is and for the ins and patricians? Do they exist at this point in time? It is I'll have Dr G 17:12 more to say on that topic later. So the trouble with the rebellious thing is that there's no routinely i in the fastI, as we are aware of it, yeah, for another 250 years. Yeah. And Dr Rad 17:27 with Roman naming conventions, it feels really unlikely that you would just have one random guy from a family pop up, and then no one in the family pop up again. Dr G 17:38 This is something that you build over time, and family reputation gets sort of baked in. And so you're expecting a slow progression of people to come into positions and then to be followed through by their relatives. And that's not what we see. In this case. We don't get a routine AI for ages. The praenomen Spurius doesn't go with this gens historically, from the examples that we do have, neither does the cognomen Crassus. Dr Rad 18:00 Yes, exactly. Dr G 18:01 So it's all just kind of speculation and wildness and probably not a plebeian sad news, because we're Pro Plebeian on this podcast. It's pretty clear. Yeah. And that is not what we're getting in 417 BCE. Dr Rad 18:15 So should we do 416? Or do you have enough information to separate those years out? Dr G 18:22 Don't be like that. What I can tell you is in terms of my source material, yeah, is that I have a little excerpt from the Fasti Capitolini Which basically proves that Lucretius Hosti is somebody that we should care about. Likewise, Agrippa Menenius and otherwise everybody else is up for grabs. And that Diodorus Siculus appears to be more on top of the names than Livy Defeat I don't know people better the place than me seem to think that or Siculus got the information right Dr Rad 19:04 this time. Fair enough. Fair enough. Look, it's not like Livy hasn't made a mistake with names before All right, well, shall we get it through for 16 then because as I say, this is a very blended together for me. Dr G 19:17 Okay, so you've got some blending I've got a whole bunch of different names for 416 Dr Rad 19:21 No, no, I do like that. They are separate but I mean, the actions all blended together All right. Yeah. Dr G 19:27 Okay, well, I feel sorry for the aforementioned players of 417 Dr Rad 19:32 out they're gonna come into it maybe the Chinese are a bit Dr G 19:34 bit players at best. So our people for 416 We've got military tributes for cultural power again, yeah, Aulus Sempronius Atratinus A name we know well by now. Yeah. Previously consul in 428. Not a named consul, but one of the sort of suffect consul and also a military Tribune in 425 and 420. Oh, My other note is that despite his appearance in many years, he doesn't appear to have distinguished himself in any particular way. Dr Rad 20:06 Well, this is the guy I think, who was accused of holding fake elections and it led to his relative being prosecuted. Wow. And yet he's back. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's him. His reputation has recovered. Well, yeah, cuz I mean, it's just attributing to accused him of it and nobody pays attention to the interview. Oh, that's right. Dr G 20:25 I listened to those guys that crazy. Yeah. And Marcus Papirius Mugillanus. Yes. Again, very familiar. Yes, very recently. Was military Tribune in 418. Yep. Quintus Fabius Vibulanus. Again, I've heard that name before console in 423. So you know, we're all coming about in the same sort of air. Yes. Spurius Nautius Rutilus. US military Tribune in 419. Dr Rad 20:52 Noticing a bit of a bit of a trend Yeah. And Dr G 20:56 some return of some players. Everybody sort of had a bit of a role before. Is this a sign of trouble afoot for row on the military front where they're like, You know what, we don't just need commanders we need experienced commanders might say something about that. Don't give the narrative away just yet. We also have two named tribune of the plebs. Yeah, as I understand it, Sextus Maecilius. And somebody who might be Marcus Metilius. Dr Rad 21:27 Alright, so let me explain why, at least in my narrative, this all blends together a lot. Dr G 21:34 All right. I'm looking forward to the tail. Well, yeah. Dr Rad 21:36 I guess as as Livy's specifically notes that we do have a lot of repeat players this time around in both for 17. And for 16. And basically room is actually in quite a peaceful period externally. Allegedly, I'm a little bit suspicious because there are so many military Tribune's is constantly power. But also, I mean, it hasn't been very peaceful recently. This is true. Maybe it's just a precautionary measure, but not so peaceful. internally. Dr. G. Once again, agrarian issues come to the fore. Dr G 22:10 Yeah, well, they didn't give me enough land this. I mean, how am I supposed to live? Dr Rad 22:15 Yeah, well, not the not those issues. You might expect it will be the colonists, but it's not. Dr G 22:19 It's not coming from the new colonists of the Labicani? Okay, yeah. Dr Rad 22:24 So if the tribunes have got sort of causing problems, okay, our friend Maecilius, who apparently is serving for the fourth time as Tribune, and Metilius, who is apparently serving for the third time Dr G 22:38 Oh, so we have some very experienced plebeians in the rows. Dr Rad 22:42 Well, again, now, this is not to say that they didn't serve, but we haven't had any record of who's going Dr G 22:50 to be like that. Obviously, they're preparing for the fourth and third time, Dr Rad 22:53 we're just gonna have to take Livy's word for it that they have served previously. So these two Tribune's decided that they're going to put forward a law where land taken from the enemies of Rome should be split up and apostle given to each Roman citizen. So effectively, what they're doing is to take away the riches of the very wealthy. And the idea is that most of the really noble Gavin's in Rome would be hit and hit hard if they manage to pass this law. Now, there are a lot of red flags here, in case you're wondering. So the only new territory we've really mentioned of late is of course, Labici. Right. So you might be thinking that they're referring to that land specifically, but it doesn't seem like they are it kind of seems like maybe they mean, land in general. That room has been founded on territory that's been gradually one and pieced together. That's That's why they'd be hitting the families really hard. Dr G 24:04 Okay, that sort of inch by inch, clawing it back from the list guns or something. Dr Rad 24:10 Yeah. And it's also kind of insinuating that obviously, the idea is that land that is one in battle becomes part of the public land, and that the patricians are somehow monopolising that, or have monopolised that in the past and pavilions aren't just getting a Look in at all. But as we've talked about before, this isn't a rich versus poor divide. We do have wealthy plebeians. And so this kind of asks us to believe that the only way wealthy plebeians have acquired land is by buying it somehow when it comes up for sale. It just it just raises a lot of questions about how exactly this is working. Do they just mean the new colony? are they referring more broadly to other things? It's a bit up in question. But certainly the tribunes feel that this is fair because they think hardly any land within room or outside of it has not been won by fighting. And yet the patricians hold most of the land. And so obviously, this is the ill feeling that they're tapping into. Dr G 25:17 Yeah. And that seems appropriate. And it's trying to think about how would an ancient economy navigate things like this? So like, how is wealth characterised? And how do you come into the acquisition of land? And how do you retain it? Because it's not like you necessarily have like a piece of paper? We have, we're thinking about the foundation of the city itself. You've got stones that mark out areas? Yeah, you know, so if a family goes out and sticks some stone somewhere overnight, who knows? Like, does that make it legal? How does it operate in a practical sense? And if are you capable of only possessing the things that you can fight for and then win? Yeah. Because then your gains become super important to your land holdings, because part of the function of again, is to come together as a war band, and to protect property ownership. Yes. So the bigger the gains, the more powerful the more potential. So it might not necessarily be about wealth acquisition, outside in an economical sense, because that might not be the sort of power you need to be able to take land and then retain it. Dr Rad 26:26 Well, and this is exactly I think, this kind of story. I mean, Look, I should perhaps say that people are very dubious about whether this ever happened because it is just such a classic conflicts between the patricians and plebeians, you know, the squaring off against each other. People are very dubious about whether this actually happened, particularly because we're the character of Metilius. There's been questions raised about whether that name was injected potentially by one Dionysius of Halicarnassus because his patrons were Metiliii... Dr G 27:00 Well, Well, Well, trash talk. Dr Rad 27:05 Exactly. But there have been questions raised certainly about the veracity of these events. However, I think if we do Look at this story, it would again suggest that Rome is far more disorganised tribal and warlord ish, which is totally legitimate academic word, then it is being Dr G 27:26 described in our literary material from hundreds of years later. Dr Rad 27:29 Exactly, exactly. But Livy and Dionysius are making it seem like there's a really organised state with a very clear career progression and Dr G 27:39 yeah, and highly D alienated class system already in Dr Rad 27:42 play. Yeah. Which seems unlikely. If you Look at this sort of story. Dr G 27:46 Well, there's no reason why you wouldn't have a hierarchical system of some kind happening. So how does it unfold in practical terms, and is what the sources telling us the most likely implausible explanation for what was happening in the past based on other things that we might be able to find out. And this is the part of the trouble that we have generally with this period is that we have so little extant material from other sources to be able to sort of CO opt into something that might be a narrative. We've got archaeological remains, and we've got a little bit of epigraphy. And we've got this and that, and they're, they're there. But they're not necessarily providing that wholesale sort of sweeping narrative that our riders later on are able to produce and then go on to survive. So we're a little bit hampered by what we have access to. Dr Rad 28:38 Exactly. So if I am going to proceed with this story, let's obviously pretend that we believe everything Livy's saying, Dr G 28:46 I'm so excited for when I'm gonna let you tell your story. And then I'm gonna maybe I'll do is I'll do some things. Dr Rad 28:52 All right, so the military tribune's with consular power had been consulting with the Senate. So obviously a bit more of an official public kind of consultation that's going on, but they also are having little private teetotalers with the leading men. So I would read the men with the most doctorates as potentially the most wealth, and certainly substantial political and military experience behind them. And in this narrative, definitely patricians and they're trying to come up with an evil plan to defeat the tribune of the plebs. Now live he doesn't explicitly say at this point, so the story goes, which makes it sound incredibly like hearsay that's this is where one Appius Claudius enters our narrative. Oh, no, Dr G 29:45 no, no, I'm still I'm still dealing with my trauma for the last FAS Clodius they caught me back No. Dr Rad 29:53 So Appius Claudius. Now dear listeners room and naming conventions strike again. This is not the The Appius Claudius of infamy, but the grandson of the decimvir, who you may be recalling the one that had organised the potential abduction with the idea of obviously making her sexually subservient to him of Virginia, the plebeian maid. Dr G 30:19 Yes. what a what a man who could forget Dr Rad 30:22 now this Appius Claudius is the youngest man in the Senate. Cute. Yeah. No. Dr G 30:28 How old is he Dr Rad 30:29 doesn't say, I mean, it could be 30. I mean, even 40. Really? Dr G 30:35 I was gonna say, the Spry 42. Exactly, Dr Rad 30:39 exactly. Now, he decides that he's going to put forward an old idea from way back in the day from his family. Oh, yeah. You know, it's gonna be awful. So this comes from not the desam there, but an even even Appius. Claudius. Yes. Now, there are some disputes about exactly how great this grandfather is. Is it his great grandfather or his great, great grandfather? But either way, his name is still Appius Claudius. Dr G 31:09 It doesn't matter how far back you go. It's Appius Claudius all the way down. Dr Rad 31:13 We think that this particular Appius Claudius would have been his great grandfather who was consul in 471 That he's throwing back to him. Yeah, the the good old days. Yeah. So Appius Claudius reminds his fellow senators that a good way to destroy the power of the Tribune's of the plebs, is by harnessing the veto power of other Tribune's of the plebs, in other words, turning them against each other divide and conquer my friend, exactly. I do remember talking about this. He says, It's not that hard. Because elite men in Rome just have to choose someone who's not as experienced not as established amongst the tribunes and use their influence to turn them against their colleagues and use them for their own advantage. Because the whole idea, of course, is that there's obviously more than just these two Tribune's who are serving at this point in time. These attributes, however, are getting all the notoriety they're sucking all the air out of the room, Dr. G, by causing issues and trying to win popularity with the people. What about those that are left behind in the background? Dr. G, what about the wallflower Tribune's? What about them? Dr G 32:27 What about the quiet Romans? Exactly. Dr Rad 32:30 So instead, one way that they could advance their career path is by getting on the good side of the whole Senate by really helping them out doing a solid, you know, by turning on their tribute and colleagues, and particularly in it for them favour favour. Especially currying favour with the leading senators. Well, well, well yeah. Now the Senate is really like this flat because Dr G 33:02 that's the kind of plan where they get to do exactly what they like and maybe they have to throw a nice dinner party later and and fight this guy that they don't even care about once. Dr Rad 33:11 Exactly. And so it is on like Donkey Kong, they Cana then listed. All the senators are also very impressed with Appius. Claudius, especially. Dr G 33:24 It's kind of hilarious. Be like, why did we think of that? Like, dude, you'd have thought of that? Dr Rad 33:29 Especially Quintus Servilius Priscus, our dictator from the previous year who's clearly an Uber for attrition, so he says to Appius Claudius, you're living up to the Guardian name your young whippersnapper pipit carry on. Dr G 33:45 I love it carry on the great tradition of your forebears. Dr Rad 33:49 Yes. And so all members of the Senate are given a mission possible. We're going to talk to a tribune of the plebs and try and get them to use their veto. So three promising favours personal gratitude, as well as also I think, a bit of a mixture of, you know, threats, they managed to win over six of the tribunes of the plebs today aside, wow. Dr G 34:14 And we've only got two names. Dr Rad 34:16 I know. Me as traitors. Yeah. They change to the dustbin. Dr G 34:23 Gordon reason day, you'd be a class trader. Dr Rad 34:26 Exactly. So the following day, the Senate set the plan into motion. So let's start by discussing the issues raised by my Caelius Antonius. The leading senators then get up and make speeches about what they have proposed, all very, as we would expect, they then beseech the tribunes to protect the Republic, don't stand against this law, put forward by their colleagues. Dr G 34:50 She's in danger. Somebody's got to Look after Dr Rad 34:53 Yes, they will. Like Tribune's can do more than just create problems between the patricians and plebeians. If you can stop your colleagues from harming Dr G 35:04 the state, yeah, you can solve problems. Dr Rad 35:07 Yeah. And so all the senators call on the tribunes to come to their aid and as dire out of need. And the tribunes, who had been won over now spoke up and said they were only too happy to use their veto against this proposal. And the Senate version. Thanks. Wow. Yeah, Dr G 35:26 I'm very disappointed. I know. But we get so close to land reform, and then it just snatched away in an instant. Yeah, Dr Rad 35:33 Maecilius and Metilius can't really do much anymore. Apart from summit and assembly.Call all these tribunes that agreed with the Senate turncoats and class traitors and lots of other nasty names. They rant and rave and then they grumpily agreed to put an end to their proposal. Wow. And that is when 417. And 416. Dr G 35:55 It's a bit of a mess, isn't it? Dr Rad 35:57 It is Look, I mean, number one, it suggests that there isn't necessarily just like this clear classifier that you are patrician, or you're playing. As we've talked about before, it would be highly possible if we accept that these two different classes exist that wealthy affiliates actually have more in common with patricians than they do perhaps, you know, people who are like really low down in terms of their socio economic status. However, it does also suggest to me that potentially, maybe some of the problems are being blamed on the plebeians. Possibly, I mean, I have no basis for this, apart from the fact that I think Louis is very pretty patrician. Dr G 36:38 Yeah. So like, how does Roman politics work? And like, what are the sort of like class politics, not just class politics, but you know, how does the society function through the decisions that are has to make as a collective like part of the point of having something like Rome, which is functioning like a city state at this point? How does it navigate the requirements that are coming up from its citizen body? And part of that might have to be an acknowledgement that we're dealing with the cream of the crop here? Yeah, almost at all times. We very rarely actually get to see people, or and we certainly don't get the perspectives of people who are living their daily lives in the struggle, and tend to be then co opted and levied into the army, yeah, for some sort of military action, and then returned home or not, depending on what happens. Yeah, otherwise, we're dealing with what seems to be this sort of finicky interest group of people jostling at the very top, who wants something a little bit more than they've already got, and can't quite agree on how they're going to make it work. And the people who have things already, obviously, have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, and the people who are on the edge of that are looking in and being like, I'm so close to having that they don't want to take down the system necessarily. They want to be firmly embedded in the system at the very top. Dr Rad 38:01 Exactly. And that's also I think, feeds into this idea. I feel like we see more corruption on the side of the plebeians, and we do to patricians, it's not that you don't ever see, like class traitors on either side, you do, we've talked about them before the patrician ones tend to get killed. Dr G 38:17 There's been some great instances of prescriptions that have sort of elevated plebeian causes or taking the side of the tribunes at certain points in time. But the way that our source material is navigating that is to suggest that maybe that was problematic at best. Dr Rad 38:32 Yeah. And I just feel like that's plebeians come off. In a worse light more often, particularly the tribune of the plebs, they're either causing issues causing problems, or they're betraying each other to get ahead, but it just doesn't come up. Something about it just makes me suspicious and makes me think, Hmm, what are you about young Livy? Dr G 38:54 I think it's worth being suspicious. I mean, Livy is writing under Augustus, essentially. And this means that his perspective on Rome is a very different world from the world that he's writing about in this period of his history, too. So there is that fact, first and foremost, but so the political context is very different. But also, who is his intended audience? Is it other Romans, and then again, which other Romans, he's writing in Latin, he's writing for somebody. So those sorts of questions start to raise themselves as well. And we're dealing with this period where, from our perspective, now, we've got very little to counteract a narrative presented to us like the one that Livy's offers. Dr Rad 39:37 Well, it's so bizarre to me, because of course, by his own time, being patrician or being plebeian, it barely matters anymore. Like it does matter for a few things. But it's certainly not a barrier to success. You know, if you're if you're from the plebeian classes, you can indeed be very wealthy and be involved in politics. So it's weird to me sometimes I suppose when we see these sorts of things, but as we talk about that when we see the blending of patrician and pavilions gradually over time, it's still just the elite. It's just the elite that are at the top there, and therefore, who he's writing for is the elite. And even though, you know, fortunes rise and fall for families, and that's one thing over time, but we do often have similar families, I think, who are going to be at the top for substantial periods of time, I think Dr G 40:23 in if we're thinking about Livy, and what's going on with patricians and plebeians, my flesh rabbits, yes. And we certainly see that some people do change from one to the others might distinctly and there's various ways to do that. And I think that tells us that gives us some indication of the nature of what we might think of today as class. And I'm using this as an analogy. It's not, it's not something that you could base or hinge everything on. But in the way in which a class society and I thinking of the English in particular, because I think they form a great example, Australians like to think they don't have class. And that is problematic in itself. But the English definitely recognised class as a category. And if you're born into an upper middle class family, that's very different from being the lowest here of the aristocracy. And everybody knows it. And it almost doesn't matter how much you achieve in your life. It's very different, very difficult to shift from upper middle class into the aristocracy. You know, there was a huge barrier there. Yeah. So I think this is one of those things where the Romans might be in that kind of situation where it's like, everybody knows precisely where you sit. Yeah. And it's very difficult to move. Very rare cases of it happening. Yeah. And it does have, it probably has an effect on the way you think about yourself as a Roman, what kind of Roman i So I wonder, but I said I was going to break some stuff. Dr Rad 41:49 I was gonna say I'm waiting for your electrifying details. So to GE, Dr G 41:52 well, in the absence of my source material, I went to the secondary scholarship. Dr Rad 41:56 ood Dr G 41:58 tell me Well, so I was like, you know, let's find out some more about what's happening in this period. If we can get what your school is reckon might be happening. I mean, we're all dealing with very sort of small amounts of information. How do we do anything? Yeah. And I started reading Holloway's article from 2008. Who were the tribuni militum consulare potestate? Who were they? Who were the military tribunes with consular power? Yeah. And his position or their position, I should say, because I don't know the gender of their position seems to be that. What if the fastI and the list that we have for magistrates were really retrogene actually made up? Once people started writing down history? Dr Rad 42:47 This is very much in keeping with what we've just. Dr G 42:51 Yeah, so what if it is the case that you know, people in like the first century BC decided to write some mysteries and the like, is going to be great. They're like, where do I start? And like, there are no records. There were literally direct Dr Rad 43:03 material guys. Yeah, that's really tough. Dr G 43:05 How do I write this? You know? And what they then do, is they do what we we've talked about this before they go to family archives, yeah. Walk into people's houses, and people have their family trees on display, essentially with the Margot's? Dr Rad 43:20 Absolutely, I mean, that that would definitely be a source that would exist because the Romans are super into their families, Dr G 43:25 super into their families. And so the masks of their deceased ancestors are all displayed on the wall and you know, presumably in some sort of order, which gives you a sense of their illustriousness, or their antiquity, etc, etc. Yes, but obviously, that's one element of it. He then also talks about how Cicero warns everybody against believing family archives, were like, you know, people make up some stuff for that, you know? Dr Rad 43:50 Well, yes. But Cicero was also fairly new. He Dr G 43:54 was a novice. Homer really is true. Yeah. Didn't have an ancestor to his name. So Cicero is, you know, sort of like, be careful, because people exaggerate their achievements, which I think fair, cool. Yeah. They also might falsely tell people about magistracies that they've held that they've never Dr Rad 44:10 held, because he's going to be added yet. Dr G 44:12 Coombe lenient? Yeah. And Spurius genealogies, like where did your family come from? That's like, Oh, come on. I'm a routine alias. Obviously. Dr Rad 44:23 This again, is giving me such America, you know, 19th century. It's like, Where does your family come from? Really? Dr G 44:31 Really? Yeah, like you can just make stuff up. It's not very far back in my own family's history where people were making stuff up. I know about that. But I don't know. Don't go checking everybody. Dr Rad 44:45 And jump to Ge Ge was a GE Dr G 44:48 Search carefully. As single letter, what can you discover? We also have this idea that perhaps we've got the fastI but Holloway is kind of like maybe we don't have the facts. St may be the first to our creation once people start writing that narrative history, and they need to fill in the blanks. And they're consulting these family archives, and there are too many names. And too many people hold too many positions, right? You know, so then they get into this situation be like, Well, how do I resolve this? I got a lot of names now. And it's like, there's only supposed to be two people per Yeah. And now I've got like, six people, you know, I've got like, you know, 200 names, and I need to like figure out the next 25 years, like, how am I going to do that? So they Dr Rad 45:29 invented a position? Dr G 45:33 I don't necessarily what is say that they did. But I think we have to put it out there as a reasonable potential. Because if people are not necessarily counting things out specifically themselves within their family genealogies, they're just kind of like I have an illustrious ancestor, and they will console three times. And that's a story that's handed down in your family. Yeah. So one of the stories that's handed down in my family is that we're related to Samuel Johnson. Oh, no. Which is a great story, but not true. Dr Rad 46:02 Interesting. Well, I'm related to King Henry the sixth, which is true, because it's not a brag. Terrible. Dr G 46:11 Wow. How do you get back that far? Look at you. I didn't know I was doing a podcast with royalty. Dr Rad 46:17 Are you kidding? It was clearly obvious from day one. Dr G 46:21 I should have picked it. Damn it. Dr Rad 46:25 I mean, this is the thing. This is just what I've been told, I actually have no idea whether it's true or not. I'm trusting the genealogical research of my relatives, which may very well be flawed. Dr G 46:35 Interesting. Yeah. So my mother is a genealogist. And maybe that's where I get my historical interest from. But yeah, she's searched far and wide to sort of back up this claim. And yeah, there doesn't seem to be a way to do it. So I think that sort of stuff is fascinating, because that is a sort of an apocryphal story of our family totally. And you're like, I don't know if we can substantiate that. And, you know, that's the distance but of what 400 or something years, and I'm like, This is what happens when people tell stories. And then they're sort of reified through the retelling. And maybe they can become more exaggerated over time. And then all of a sudden, you've got too many people and not enough years, and you're writing an animalistic history, and you have to solve that problem. Somehow, Dr Rad 47:19 hi, they didn't have consuls, they had something else and they were allowed to have more than two Dr G 47:24 years, something with consular power. Very good Dr Rad 47:30 military stuff with the tribes of Rome. Dr G 47:33 Fascinating. Fascinating. Yes, I like it. Let's do that. Dr Rad 47:37 That way, we can all have illustrious relatives. You get a consul and you get a consul, you get a consul. So Dr G 47:44 Indeed, indeed. And so one of the other things that Holloway is pretty suspicious of is the Annales Maximi, which is the Pontifical record. And Dr Rad 47:55 g is the basis for so much of your beliefs. Dr G 48:00 Just putting it out there, I'm just raising more doubts and just deal listeners. Yeah, if you're ever in doubt about Roman history, this is the episode for you. So there's apparently 80 books of the finales maximum, right. And Holloway is kind of like, but they what do they even have in them? Like, it's just going to be an oddball collection of stuff that probably doesn't make a lot of sense. Gonna stay close to the chicken. Then there are the linen books. He talks about these before. Yes, because cost of living Yeah, preserved in the temple of Juno monitor. And also cited by Linnaeus Mesa and Eilis tuber, other writers that we only have fragments of indeed, Dr Rad 48:38 also cited by with me. And yes, I think I think the whole idea is that levy has potentially some information from living in books via his sources that use Dr G 48:49 them. Oh, there doesn't seem to be a consensus about the quality of the information in the linen books. There's potential for disagreement within those as well, actually. So that's good. And, you know, so this leaves us in a situation where, what is the history of where we're getting rapidly towards the end of the fifth century BCE? We were heading there now. But this is a period where so little is something that we can hold on to as like, fact. Dr Rad 49:19 Well, particularly because I think we've mentioned this in quite a few episodes, when we get to these really confusing times where people are saying, Ah, that's it didn't really happen, and those people probably didn't really exist and they just made up names and it starts to make you question, what am I even doing? Right when it seems so doubtful, but as we talked about before, there is this real turning point where allegedly room is destroyed, razed to the ground, lots of records destroyed, and that our records will presumably get a bit more reliable once Rome itself and its record keeping is a little bit more protected from external attack and that sort of thing. But I mean, to be honest, even after that, you know, still had a lot of bloody fires in your nose was being destroyed? Dr G 50:07 Well, exactly. And I think there's always a value in considering how people writing about history within a society are thinking about their own society as well. And even if, at best, what we're learning is what did Livy's and Dionysius and other sort of first century BC or C authors really think about this really early period of their own history? I still think that's a really valuable sort of tool because it provides the mindset for people of the day do then think about, well, if this is what Rome is, how do I operate from here? How do I fit into this? And how can I push and change from within this context? A shared understanding of history is one that allows you to make different decisions. Yes. Dr Rad 50:49 And who are we to question Livy? Really? Dr G 50:55 I mean, so I'm Dr. G. And I use that as my basis for being able to Livy's At times, Dr Rad 51:03 I know very realistically there, even though he is writing many centuries after we are podcasting 1000s of years after, so, I'm hoping that somewhere he had access to better sources. Dr G 51:16 I mean, I'd like to think so. Dr Rad 51:19 Or identity. So I think that brings us to the end of our episode or 417 and 416, which was seemingly really more about 416. Dr G 51:30 Nobody got to Look at in from 470 really know Dr Rad 51:33 that anyway. It's done for the Partial Pick. All right, Dr G, tell us how does the Partial Pick? Dr G 51:46 There are 50 Golden Eagles up for grabs. 10 across five categories? Yeah, the higher the Eagles score, the greater room is. Dr Rad 51:57 Alright, so what's our first category? Military clout? Okay, well, there is definitely some stuff here. I mean, not so much 417 and 416. But because I left the tail end before it taken out. We do have some victories we do Dr G 52:10 a victory over what the Aequians and the in the Labicani really? Yes. Dr Rad 52:15 I mean, it's one of those stories where always when Rome hits problems, we then get a story very soon after, where they just sweep everything before them. Effortless, easy, simple. But nonetheless, it happened to Dr G 52:30 you telling me there's some kind of narrative flow that you can detect in the history, Dr Rad 52:34 the ebbs and flows, but nonetheless, we are told that they are victorious. And, and how I mean, they not only manage to beat them, but Dr G 52:42 a shout out to those letters really rapidly. Yeah, Dr Rad 52:45 they captured they can they made them run away to a nearby city to take refuge and they captured that city and took all the beauty from that. And then they set up a colleague. Oh, my God. That's a lot of military class. Dr G 52:56 Oh, give them to what? Just because you think it didn't really haven't? No. Doctors? I mean, they've only taken one place. Dr Rad 53:08 Do you know how long it's been since they're Dr G 53:11 willing to up it to three? Dr Rad 53:12 I think they do deserve a three. I mean, it is a little suspicious that this guy didn't get to travel anything, huh? Indeed. Very. All right. Well Dr G 53:22 gave me three diplomacy. No. Yeah, it was pretty abject failure. In fact, the patricians are trying to really ruin the potential for diplomacy internally. Yeah. Getting some of the tribune of the plebs on the on their side. Dr Rad 53:38 Well, I mean, I guess that is diplomatic, and that they're not stabbing them in the streets. But I think I think there's again, as we keep coming back to I think there's a difference between being slightly diplomatic and mostly manipulative, and actual diplomacy. Dr G 53:53 Yeah, yeah. So I'm giving them zero for that. Dr Rad 53:55 I agree. Expansion. Yes. Yes. 1000 times? Yes. Dr G 54:02 We have a whole new colony now. Do you? Oh, my God, the love and Connie are probably pretty unhappy. We'll see how that turns out. Dr Rad 54:10 If they felt they started this century. I'm happy. It's only getting worse. And yet well, so what are we saying? We've got to call any reasonable amount of people. They're all given a bit of land for. Dr G 54:23 Not enough to live off. Well, I Dr Rad 54:25 mean, as we say, this could just be a misunderstanding. Dr G 54:26 All right, for we're to us. Dr Rad 54:31 Look, we do have some news for patrician douchebags on the scene, but I'm not sure if it's quiet enough. Dr G 54:36 Yeah. I don't think they're necessarily engaging you weird to us. Dr Rad 54:40 Yeah. I mean, is killing your standard bearer. sign of weakness. Dr G 54:44 I feel like I need more details to be able to clarify, because it might well be, but I don't know. I feel like no citizen score. Dr Rad 54:52 Hmm. Well, I mean, I guess there is a new colony being set up but the way the tribune is carrying on I feel like it's not been good news for the people. While Dr G 55:00 it does seem like they're getting the raw end of the prawn, so to speak, Dr Rad 55:05 yeah, and then the tribunes betray may cause so that can't be so not ideal if you're a citizen. No, no, not positive. So is that a zero? Dr G 55:15 I think that might be a zero. Dr Rad 55:18 I mean, on the other hand, though, I'm just going to throw it out there. There is peace in 417 and 416. All the problems are internal, which means no war, no levee. After you farm, see the kids? Dr G 55:32 Yeah, sure. But you're not getting any land or you're not any Dr Rad 55:35 more land. I mean, this is what we've often talked about, is the absence of war worth a point or is it? Dr G 55:46 I think it's a case by case basis. But if we want them to have not an objectively low score, perhaps we could give them one. Dr Rad 55:53 Well, Look, I don't mind having a low score. I guess I'm just wondering if the absence of war isn't itself something we maybe have to recognise, Dr G 56:01 I think, well, I mean, not going to war is great. But also they were trying for some things at home, which didn't really get pulled off at all. So I feel like it's risky. Dr Rad 56:13 Yeah. Okay. So probably easier than yes. We get data love seven out of 50 Golden Eagles for two and a half years of Roman history. Dr G 56:28 Boy, ancient Rome. Dr Rad 56:31 Yes. Didn't. Don't why studied you for so long. Dr G 56:36 They get good later, I think. Yeah, I've heard a rumour. But it just depends. Dr Rad 56:43 Well, did you thank you once again for joining me to talk about the history of rain from the founding of the city. Dr G 56:50 It has been an absolute pleasure, and I Look forward to continuing the journey with you soon Dr Rad 56:56 indeed. Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. 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