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Bengals Booth Podcast: What About Now · Bengals Booth Podcast

0:03
Speaker 1: Hi, get everybody. I'm Dan Horde and thanks for downloading
0:06
Speaker 1: The Bengals Booth podcast. The What About Now addition, as
0:13
Speaker 1: I discuss a possible Joe Burrow contract extension and other
0:17
Speaker 1: offseason priorities with Brad Spielberger, the salary cap expert from
0:22
Speaker 1: Pro Football Focus. And speaking of Joe Burrow, there's a
0:26
Speaker 1: book coming out soon that details his life story to
0:29
Speaker 1: date from Athens to Ohio State, to LSU and ultimately
0:34
Speaker 1: to Cincinnati. I'll talk to author Scott Person. The Bengals
0:38
Speaker 1: Booth Podcast is brought to you by Paycorps. More than
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Speaker 1: twenty nine thousand customers trust Paycorps to help them recruit,
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Speaker 1: pay engage and retain employees. Learn more at paycorp dot
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Speaker 1: com and buy Bengals Picks and Ultimate Bengals. They're free
0:55
Speaker 1: to play with tickets and signed merchandise up for grabs.
0:58
Speaker 1: Find both inside the Bengals Half Now. Here's a quick
1:02
Speaker 1: reminder that you can add the latest edition of this
1:05
Speaker 1: podcast delivered right to your phone, tablet, or computer by
1:08
Speaker 1: subscribing wherever you get your podcasts. It's the greatest thing
1:12
Speaker 1: since Peter King recognizing my hometown prior to the last
1:18
Speaker 1: six Super Bowl sportswriter Peter King has driven to work
1:22
Speaker 1: with one of the two head coaches about a week
1:24
Speaker 1: before the game. He did it with Zach Taylor last
1:27
Speaker 1: year and Philadelphia's Nick Sirianni this year. After reading about
1:32
Speaker 1: his ride with coach Sirianni, I shared with Peter the
1:35
Speaker 1: Knick's dad was my high school track coach and science teacher,
1:39
Speaker 1: and that commissioner Roger Goodell was also born in our
1:43
Speaker 1: hometown of Jamestown, New York. Peter took it from there
1:47
Speaker 1: and did some research before listing the most famous people
1:51
Speaker 1: born in Jamestown in his Football Morning in America column
1:54
Speaker 1: the day after the Super Bowl. He correctly had Lucy
1:58
Speaker 1: o Ball ranked number one. He had me way too
2:01
Speaker 1: high at number eight. But in any case, my friends
2:04
Speaker 1: and family got a big kick out of it, and
2:07
Speaker 1: it's always nice to see Jamestown, with its population of
2:10
Speaker 1: roughly twenty eight thousand, get a little publicity. Now let's
2:14
Speaker 1: get to this week's guests. Brad Spielberger, who has a
2:18
Speaker 1: law degree from Tulane University, is the salary cap expert
2:22
Speaker 1: for Pro Football Focus. Right now on PF you can
2:26
Speaker 1: find his list of the top one hundred players set
2:30
Speaker 1: to enter free agency. Jesse Bates his number four on
2:33
Speaker 1: his list, Von Bell forty six, Jermaine Pratt fifty second,
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Speaker 1: and Hayden Hurst is seventy fifth. Brad joined me to
2:42
Speaker 1: discuss those players, as well as possible replacements if they
2:46
Speaker 1: don't return. But we start with the most important offseason
2:50
Speaker 1: issue for the Bengals, and it's possible ramifications. Brad, let's
2:56
Speaker 1: get right into the topic of Joe Burrows contract. He's
2:59
Speaker 1: not a free agent. There's a year left on his deal.
3:02
Speaker 1: The Bengals have a fifth year option the following year.
3:05
Speaker 1: They could franchise tag him multiple times after that if needed.
3:09
Speaker 1: So other than never wanting him to reach free agency,
3:13
Speaker 1: what are the practical reasons to get this done now? Yeah, so,
3:17
Speaker 1: first and foremost, obviously you want to keep your franchise
3:20
Speaker 1: player happy, but that is, you know, more of a
3:22
Speaker 1: non football related, non financial related reason. The big reason
3:26
Speaker 1: from a salary cap and contract and cash flow standpoint is,
3:29
Speaker 1: we know this market at quarterback is always going to
3:32
Speaker 1: grow and grow and grow. So the earlier you can
3:34
Speaker 1: get these deals done, Yes, it's gonna look massive when
3:37
Speaker 1: you first do it, but then a couple of years
3:39
Speaker 1: down the line. You know, Josh Allen making forty three
3:41
Speaker 1: million dollars a year now is gonna look like pennies
3:43
Speaker 1: when when Joe Boyle gets his deal done. So you
3:46
Speaker 1: just get it done. And look the twenty twenty one class.
3:48
Speaker 1: They've got Trevor Lawrence, these guys coming up right behind him.
3:51
Speaker 1: So you want to get it done early because that
3:53
Speaker 1: market's never gonna stop growing. At the Super Bowl, Jamar
3:57
Speaker 1: Chase said, and I'm paraphrasing a little bit, Joe wants
4:00
Speaker 1: to sign a contract that allows him to keep his weapons.
4:04
Speaker 1: Nobody expects Joe Burrow to take a quote unquote hometown discount.
4:07
Speaker 1: So how did the Bengals pay him roughly fifty million
4:10
Speaker 1: dollars a year and still have room for others? Yeah?
4:14
Speaker 1: I don't expect him to either, and he has no
4:16
Speaker 1: reason to. You know, Frankly, I get that you want
4:18
Speaker 1: to keep winning and all these things, but he is
4:20
Speaker 1: an upper echelon quarterback that deserves the money. That reflects that.
4:23
Speaker 1: I think the way you can do it, though, structure
4:25
Speaker 1: is always super important. So you know, we talked a
4:27
Speaker 1: lot about Patrick mahomes is ten year, four hundred and
4:30
Speaker 1: fifty ye or whatever number you get seen him thrown
4:32
Speaker 1: out there, that doesn't really matter. You know, his cash
4:35
Speaker 1: flows were very weak in the early years. He was
4:38
Speaker 1: willing to do that in part because of this rolling
4:40
Speaker 1: guarantee structure where he was protected through many, many years
4:45
Speaker 1: of the deal because essentially each year, each off season
4:48
Speaker 1: money for him two years down the road becomes fully guaranteed.
4:51
Speaker 1: So the cash flows early on enabled them to keep
4:54
Speaker 1: Chris Jones, to keep a bunch of players they obviously
4:57
Speaker 1: trained Tiree kill, but they could have fit that if
4:58
Speaker 1: they wanted to. They're actually twentieth in cash spending this
5:01
Speaker 1: past season, so that's a burrow could do it is
5:04
Speaker 1: you in theory you keep smaller cash flows up front
5:07
Speaker 1: and in turn smaller cap hits up front. But the
5:10
Speaker 1: Bengals had this rolling guarantee structure to say, you're protected
5:13
Speaker 1: for four or five years down the road. We're just
5:16
Speaker 1: not going to get to that money right away. B
5:18
Speaker 1: All again, it doesn't have to say yes that, but
5:20
Speaker 1: that is the way that they could keep spending on
5:22
Speaker 1: other players around him in the interim. So did the
5:26
Speaker 1: Chiefs provide a blueprint by winning the Super Bowl for
5:30
Speaker 1: how you can pay a quarterback and still keep good
5:32
Speaker 1: players around him. Yeah, to a degree, I think they did.
5:36
Speaker 1: You know, this year was the first year where Mahomes
5:38
Speaker 1: had that kind of really big cap hit and a
5:40
Speaker 1: larger cash outlay than the early years the deal. They
5:43
Speaker 1: kind of kept it, you know, near his fifth year option,
5:46
Speaker 1: you know, kind of reflect what that would have looked
5:48
Speaker 1: like if they had gone that route, which a lot
5:50
Speaker 1: of teams have done. The bills kind of the same thing.
5:53
Speaker 1: And they also just were able to push money down
5:55
Speaker 1: the line cat money that is with option bonuses and
5:58
Speaker 1: restructures of roster bonus and all these things. So yes,
6:02
Speaker 1: that they did show the blueprint. Like I said, I mean,
6:04
Speaker 1: you're keeping a twenty million per year defensive lineman and
6:07
Speaker 1: Chris Jones and all these guys that you want to keep.
6:09
Speaker 1: Frank Clark made a good amount of money in the
6:11
Speaker 1: last couple of years as well, because, you know, because
6:13
Speaker 1: Mahomes conceded on you know, how he received his money.
6:18
Speaker 1: We are chatting with Brad Spielberger, the salary cap analyst
6:20
Speaker 1: for Pro Football Focus, how realistic is it to extend
6:24
Speaker 1: Burrow and still have room for both Tee Haggens and
6:29
Speaker 1: Jamar Chase. You know, I know this answer is not
6:32
Speaker 1: going to be super well received, but I'm less bullish
6:35
Speaker 1: and less optimistic that all three of those guys are
6:39
Speaker 1: going to sign veteran contracts in Cincinnati. I mean, realistically,
6:43
Speaker 1: we're talking about probably one hundred million dollars for three players.
6:46
Speaker 1: So like, once you get into it, because I think
6:47
Speaker 1: Burrow's gonna get fifty plus, I think this offseason, Haggens
6:50
Speaker 1: is looking at over twenty million dollars per year. And
6:53
Speaker 1: then by the time Jamar Chase is up, and unlike Burrow,
6:56
Speaker 1: you've realistically more often seen every other position, the teams
6:59
Speaker 1: will let the guy I get into that fourth year
7:01
Speaker 1: going into the fifth year option, so Chase, there is
7:03
Speaker 1: still some time left. But you know, nevertheless, by the
7:05
Speaker 1: time he signs, he might be signing a thirty million
7:07
Speaker 1: per year contract. I think he's playing the way he's
7:10
Speaker 1: been playing. So again, I'm not saying this is some
7:13
Speaker 1: definitive thing. I don't know anything about it. I think
7:15
Speaker 1: Tee Higgins is going to be a very very interesting
7:18
Speaker 1: storyline this offseason, and maybe it does get done, but
7:21
Speaker 1: I don't think it's gonna get done anytime soon. I'm
7:24
Speaker 1: like burrow T was a second round pick, so they
7:27
Speaker 1: don't have the fifth year option with him. The same
7:30
Speaker 1: is true for Logan Wilson. We know the Bengals would
7:33
Speaker 1: love to extend all three of those guys if they could.
7:36
Speaker 1: What would a market look like for Logan Wilson. Yeah,
7:40
Speaker 1: and so I think he is why I've kind of
7:42
Speaker 1: convinced myself we're not going to see Jermaine Pratt back
7:44
Speaker 1: and some of the other defendencive players, bon Bell, Jesse Bates,
7:47
Speaker 1: you know, because I do think they want to keep
7:49
Speaker 1: Logan Wilson in the fold. Look, I think he's one
7:51
Speaker 1: of the better off ball linebackers the NFL. I'm a
7:53
Speaker 1: very good coverage player and a good in areas that
7:56
Speaker 1: matter in today's NFL. I don't think the top of
7:59
Speaker 1: the market the rukuand spent twenty million per year range,
8:02
Speaker 1: but I think he's looking, you know, in the fifteen
8:04
Speaker 1: to eighteen million per year range. He is one of
8:06
Speaker 1: the better players at the position, has been largely durable
8:09
Speaker 1: over his career, and I think also they've shown, you know,
8:12
Speaker 1: they trust him in every scenario. I know Prett was
8:15
Speaker 1: getting upset on Twitter and you know about not playing
8:17
Speaker 1: on third downs and things of that nature. Levand Wilson's
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Speaker 1: their guy that they clearly show he's their number one
8:22
Speaker 1: guy defense, So you know, are they going to go
8:24
Speaker 1: there and extend him early is probably a different question,
8:27
Speaker 1: but he's in that kind of second tier of off
8:29
Speaker 1: ball linebacker contracts. In my opinion, the Bengals do have
8:33
Speaker 1: pending free agents five starters from the end of last
8:37
Speaker 1: season on offense, Hayden Hurst on defense, Jesse Bates, Von Bell,
8:41
Speaker 1: Jermaine Pratt, and Eli Apple. Who would you extend and
8:45
Speaker 1: how much would it cost? Well, my guess is miss
8:48
Speaker 1: would be like missing my choice. But my guess is
8:50
Speaker 1: that neither safety is back. Maybe von Bell I would
8:54
Speaker 1: be shocked if Jesse Bates is a Bengal next year. Um,
8:56
Speaker 1: Jermaine Pratt I think is not going to be there,
8:58
Speaker 1: like I mentioned, and then Apple, I mean, if he
9:00
Speaker 1: signs another one year, three or four million dollars deal,
9:03
Speaker 1: you probably can make that work. Hurst is interesting, right,
9:07
Speaker 1: So the tight end market is very strange right now,
9:09
Speaker 1: where the top of the market is kind of capped
9:11
Speaker 1: by George Kittle and Travis Kelsey and Darren Waller to
9:13
Speaker 1: a degree, but all these second tier guys that are,
9:16
Speaker 1: you know, not the caliver of that player, are getting
9:18
Speaker 1: twelve thirteen million dollars a year. If Hurst wants that,
9:22
Speaker 1: they're not going to give it to him. But I
9:23
Speaker 1: think if he's willing to settle for I don't know,
9:25
Speaker 1: maybe not you know, three years, twenty seven millions something
9:28
Speaker 1: like that, which is even below the market I kind
9:30
Speaker 1: of projected for him on our offseason projections. But I
9:34
Speaker 1: think maybe you can make that work. But even that
9:36
Speaker 1: seems like a stretch. Realistically, I think it's possible we
9:39
Speaker 1: see none of those guys back next year if they
9:42
Speaker 1: don't resign Hayden Hurst. This is considered to be a
9:45
Speaker 1: very strong tight end draft, so that's obviously an option.
9:48
Speaker 1: But what about other free agent tight ends that they
9:50
Speaker 1: might be able to get a little bit cheaper. Yeah,
9:53
Speaker 1: and so I think that is part of it. Ay,
9:55
Speaker 1: the draft class is very strong, and it'd be there
9:57
Speaker 1: is some depth there. I got like Foster Moreau with
9:59
Speaker 1: the Las Vegas Raiders this past year. I think is
10:01
Speaker 1: a younger and potentially cheaper version of a Hayden Hurst.
10:05
Speaker 1: So he's a name if you want to go real cheap.
10:07
Speaker 1: I think a guy like irb Smith is interesting, you know,
10:09
Speaker 1: been heard a bunch with the Minnesota Vikings, but is
10:11
Speaker 1: a good player when he's healthy, and you kind of,
10:14
Speaker 1: you know, just like Hayden Hurst, maybe you bring him
10:16
Speaker 1: in on that one year, three and a half of
10:17
Speaker 1: whatever it was millions flyer and then see where you
10:20
Speaker 1: can go from there. I think they're probably in that
10:23
Speaker 1: kind of bargain bid market, but which can work out
10:25
Speaker 1: a lot at tight end. We are talking to Brad
10:28
Speaker 1: Spielberger from Pro Football Focus. You can follow him on
10:30
Speaker 1: Twitter at PFF Underscore. Brad. I think all of us
10:36
Speaker 1: agree with you that Jesse Bates is almost certainly not
10:38
Speaker 1: going to be back. What's he going to get? Is
10:41
Speaker 1: he going to be one of the NFL's highest paid safeties.
10:44
Speaker 1: I think I would look at the Marcus Williams deal
10:46
Speaker 1: with the Baltimore Ravens, so he got five years seventy
10:49
Speaker 1: million for fourteen million per year. I think Bates will
10:52
Speaker 1: get a little bit more than that. So you know,
10:53
Speaker 1: I had five years, seventy five million from fifteen million
10:55
Speaker 1: dollars a year. I don't think he's going to get
10:57
Speaker 1: anywhere near that. You know, Derwin Jane and make if
11:00
Speaker 1: Fitzpatrick market. The baits is a very good player, but
11:03
Speaker 1: I think those guys offer more versatility. They're able to
11:06
Speaker 1: actually cover, I think in more like true man covers
11:08
Speaker 1: snaps in the slot. They can take on tight ends,
11:11
Speaker 1: and it came to the number three receiver, they can
11:13
Speaker 1: you know, I think are more effected down in the box,
11:16
Speaker 1: making plays, rushing the pass or things like that. Um
11:19
Speaker 1: of course, you know, maybe we don't know if Batsis
11:20
Speaker 1: wasn't used in those ways. But he's a good player.
11:23
Speaker 1: He's a good run deepender. He's delivered some some crushing
11:26
Speaker 1: hits in his time. But I think he is viewed
11:28
Speaker 1: as more of a kind of true deep third free safety,
11:31
Speaker 1: and those guys are just not getting paid right now
11:33
Speaker 1: as much as your jackknife kind of versatile guys like
11:36
Speaker 1: a Derwin and like a make a Fitzpatrick. We might
11:39
Speaker 1: disagree on whether they keep von Bell. I think I
11:42
Speaker 1: think it's more likely than you do. But let's say
11:44
Speaker 1: that they don't if they lose Bits and Bell. They
11:47
Speaker 1: do have Dax Hill waiting in the wings. They drafted
11:50
Speaker 1: him in the first round last year for that reason.
11:52
Speaker 1: But how is that mid range free agent market at
11:56
Speaker 1: safety if they need to add a starter out of
11:58
Speaker 1: those guys. I think Bell maybe he is most likely,
12:00
Speaker 1: but he would have to take it. I think a
12:02
Speaker 1: deal kind of in the similar range of the one
12:03
Speaker 1: he signed, and that is the mid tier at safety,
12:06
Speaker 1: there's there's always so many options. It's such a deep
12:09
Speaker 1: position right now, where outside of that top tier you
12:12
Speaker 1: can find a lot of mid range players, you know,
12:14
Speaker 1: good solid safeties life around Bell the first time he signed. Frankly,
12:18
Speaker 1: there's always that level of guys. So I think it's
12:20
Speaker 1: looking at you know, six to eight million per year
12:23
Speaker 1: for a lot of those guys. And I think if
12:25
Speaker 1: Bell is willing to sign for a deal similar to
12:27
Speaker 1: the one he's on right now, that I think since
12:29
Speaker 1: he should be open to doing that have him play
12:32
Speaker 1: opposite deck. So I think they're different players that bring
12:34
Speaker 1: different skill sets to the table, and Belle is very solid,
12:38
Speaker 1: just like good all around player that I think would
12:40
Speaker 1: be a benefit to that defense going forward. We are
12:43
Speaker 1: talking to Brad Spielberger from Pro Football Focus. Right tackle
12:46
Speaker 1: L Collins ended the season with a torn ACL He
12:49
Speaker 1: dealt with back problems before that, never practiced on Wednesday.
12:53
Speaker 1: How costly would it be to move on and how
12:57
Speaker 1: is the market for a starting right tackle if they
12:59
Speaker 1: had to go on that direction. Yeah, he's an interesting one.
13:02
Speaker 1: They obviously structure that deal with a lot of team
13:05
Speaker 1: protection with all these per game roster bonuses, which of
13:08
Speaker 1: course you don't earn if you're not playing. Um, they
13:10
Speaker 1: would save six million dollars if they called him, they'd
13:12
Speaker 1: have three point three three I'm in dead cap, which
13:15
Speaker 1: is not that at all. You know, it's certainly you
13:18
Speaker 1: can stomach that for trying to replace a right tackle.
13:21
Speaker 1: There are a handful of really good players coming up.
13:23
Speaker 1: You know, if you want to get into the Mike
13:25
Speaker 1: McGlinchey and Caleb McGarry and Juan Taylor conversation, I think
13:28
Speaker 1: you're looking at fourteen to sixteen million dollars a year,
13:32
Speaker 1: give or take. If you're looking at kind of the
13:33
Speaker 1: next tier of players. There's a handful of guys that
13:36
Speaker 1: are kind of swing guys. You know, Jermaine a Luminoire
13:39
Speaker 1: with the Las Vegas Raiders. You can look at Isaiah
13:41
Speaker 1: Win with the New England Patriots, who has now kind
13:44
Speaker 1: of been shuffled around, played on both sides of the line.
13:46
Speaker 1: Those guys, I think you maybe get a shorter term deal,
13:49
Speaker 1: one or two year deal for maybe four or five
13:51
Speaker 1: million a year. But of course, you know a lot
13:54
Speaker 1: of the time you are getting what you pay for.
13:56
Speaker 1: But yeah, the Collins injuries really are stacking up, and
13:59
Speaker 1: I would not be surprised if they try to address tackle.
14:02
Speaker 1: And I think those swing options I mentioned are intriguing.
14:05
Speaker 1: With Jonah going into his fifth year option, obviously he's
14:08
Speaker 1: had injury issues his whole career. You bring in a
14:10
Speaker 1: guy that does have experienced, you know, George Fant another
14:13
Speaker 1: one with the New York Jets who's played both sides
14:15
Speaker 1: of the line. Maybe that's intriguing because you think, hey,
14:18
Speaker 1: this guy might have to start at left tackle for
14:19
Speaker 1: a couple of games for US next year as well.
14:22
Speaker 1: So everybody listening to this knows there's been a ton
14:24
Speaker 1: of speculation about Joe Mixon. Is it time to move
14:28
Speaker 1: on from Joe to clear up cap space? Make the
14:31
Speaker 1: case for why that would make sense, and are there
14:33
Speaker 1: other ways to keep him but still save money against
14:37
Speaker 1: the cap. Well that the timing for that question is perfect,
14:41
Speaker 1: because if anyone hasn't seen Aaron Jones with the Green
14:44
Speaker 1: Bay Packers agreed to a pay cut this morning, and
14:46
Speaker 1: I think you're going to see Cincinnati with Joe Mixon,
14:49
Speaker 1: probably Minnesota with Dalvin Cook, probably the Cowboys with Ezekiel Elliott.
14:53
Speaker 1: Point to that and say, hey, Aaron Jones a very
14:55
Speaker 1: good player on a deal that's very similar to you guys,
14:57
Speaker 1: and he just agreed to a pay cut. So I
14:59
Speaker 1: think that is what you do with mix And look,
15:01
Speaker 1: I think he's a very good player. I know he
15:03
Speaker 1: had ups and downs here, some games where he really
15:05
Speaker 1: splashed somewhere he'd kind of disappeared into a degree obviously,
15:08
Speaker 1: you know, not in legal trouble now, it sounds like,
15:10
Speaker 1: but who knows what's going on there? And of course,
15:12
Speaker 1: just you know, people will love to talk about saving
15:15
Speaker 1: money and not spending a lot of this position. But
15:19
Speaker 1: in my opinion, I'd rather try to negotiate a pack
15:21
Speaker 1: up with him, chop off three four million dollars from
15:24
Speaker 1: his nine point four million dollars salary. I think cutting
15:27
Speaker 1: him and trying to go out in the market and
15:28
Speaker 1: get a player or drafting early is probably not the
15:32
Speaker 1: better approach. So that's what I would do there. It's
15:35
Speaker 1: trying to chop a couple million off that deal. Big
15:38
Speaker 1: picture are the Bengals in good shape to be able
15:41
Speaker 1: to retain at least the bulk of one of the
15:44
Speaker 1: league's best rosters. They're in phenomenal shape. I mean, they
15:48
Speaker 1: are looking at how good their rosters and their sixth
15:50
Speaker 1: right now in projected cap space. A lot of their
15:53
Speaker 1: veterans are, you know, set right now. Obviously we're talking
15:55
Speaker 1: about a ton of free agents and a ton of
15:56
Speaker 1: good young players coming up, but it's not likely they
15:59
Speaker 1: have a bunch of you know, Markie, you know, you know,
16:01
Speaker 1: Trey Hendrickson's not a free agent, or you know, you
16:03
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, Like a lot of their elite,
16:05
Speaker 1: elite players that they view as the foundational core pieces
16:08
Speaker 1: for the next couple of years are under contracts. So
16:11
Speaker 1: they're in their phenomenal shape. I don't think it's a
16:14
Speaker 1: question of whether they can do it um. I think
16:16
Speaker 1: it's a question of whether they want to go there
16:18
Speaker 1: and really kind of load up on this roster um.
16:20
Speaker 1: You know, they obviously that they they've been successful. But
16:24
Speaker 1: the question I think in their mind is if we
16:26
Speaker 1: go out and spend you know, just on Teagans and
16:28
Speaker 1: Jibburrow alone, we go spend seventy five million dollars a
16:31
Speaker 1: year on those two guys. Can we keep contending? And
16:34
Speaker 1: I'm wondering what you know if they think the answer
16:35
Speaker 1: to that question is yes. As I've said, you are
16:39
Speaker 1: listed as the salary cap expert at Pro Football Focus.
16:42
Speaker 1: But obviously you put a ton of time into free
16:44
Speaker 1: agency and studying the market. How good have the Bengals
16:48
Speaker 1: fared in free agency in recent years in your opinion? Phenomenally? Yeah,
16:53
Speaker 1: they've been on a heater a million roster construction across
16:57
Speaker 1: the board. I mean, yeah, I mentioned Trey Hendrickson's actually
17:00
Speaker 1: kind of a funny anecdote. He was projected a little
17:02
Speaker 1: bit lower on my board that offseason. He got the
17:05
Speaker 1: better deal, and then immediately I've played that deal, um,
17:08
Speaker 1: and I you know, I got poked fun a little
17:10
Speaker 1: bit for that saying you were low on him and
17:11
Speaker 1: he even better than the deal he already already got.
17:13
Speaker 1: So But no, I mean going back to like von
17:16
Speaker 1: Villin coming through now, I mean just it's all about
17:18
Speaker 1: these smart, smaller signings, these mid tier deals. I love
17:21
Speaker 1: the Mike Hilton deal, one of the best lack corners
17:24
Speaker 1: in the NFL, you know, just just being calculated with it.
17:27
Speaker 1: You'd never You rarely win when you make that big
17:30
Speaker 1: splash and bring in the top free agent that everyone
17:32
Speaker 1: wants to know, the name recognition guy. It's more of
17:35
Speaker 1: those mid tier deals and you add, you know, the
17:37
Speaker 1: interior offensive line moves. I love bringing Carris and Kappa.
17:40
Speaker 1: I mentioned Hendrickson for him, a great deal. Mike Hilton, like,
17:44
Speaker 1: none of these guys are top of market, but they're
17:46
Speaker 1: really really valuable to since Nati Bengals right now and
17:49
Speaker 1: it's they've been great the last couple of years. All right,
17:52
Speaker 1: final thing we started with Joe Burrow. I'm going to
17:55
Speaker 1: end with Joe Burrow. If they get this done, what's
17:58
Speaker 1: it look like? How many years, how much per year,
18:01
Speaker 1: how much of a guarantee? What do you think? So
18:03
Speaker 1: I'll say this, I think his side is probably pushing
18:05
Speaker 1: for four because that was the standard in the past
18:08
Speaker 1: before Patrick Mahomes kind of complicated that for everybody, and
18:11
Speaker 1: I'm sure the team is trying to say, Okay, let's
18:13
Speaker 1: go to six. So I'll guess they meet in the
18:15
Speaker 1: middle at five. And I'm thinking it's you know, it
18:19
Speaker 1: does depend if he goes first or justin Herbert, all
18:21
Speaker 1: those things, but I'll stop hedging it and give an
18:23
Speaker 1: answer here. So I'll say five years at fifty two
18:27
Speaker 1: and a half million per year, So do that quick
18:30
Speaker 1: mental math. But whatever that comes out to in a total,
18:34
Speaker 1: and then I mean, the guarantee of the thing is,
18:37
Speaker 1: I just don't think Cincinnati's going to totally give in
18:39
Speaker 1: on their structure and their ability to guarantee beyond year one.
18:42
Speaker 1: So my guess is we'll see, just like you know,
18:45
Speaker 1: a Kyler Murray lest year in Arizona and a couple
18:47
Speaker 1: of the recent deals, Josh Allen around one hundred million
18:50
Speaker 1: dollars fully guaranteed it's signing, but a lot of the
18:55
Speaker 1: guarantees going through the course of the deal are going
18:57
Speaker 1: to you know, vest later. Basically they're gonna kick in
18:59
Speaker 1: down the road and this rolling structure I mentioned, so,
19:03
Speaker 1: you know, and we'll see how his camp wants to
19:06
Speaker 1: you know, go about that. But that would be my
19:08
Speaker 1: guess is they try to get into that one hundred
19:10
Speaker 1: range and the guarantees and then it's yeah, about what
19:13
Speaker 1: I say, twenty two and a half times five would
19:16
Speaker 1: be the overall deal. As little early to do that
19:18
Speaker 1: mental math right now, I guess, but two sixty two
19:21
Speaker 1: and a half, two sixty two and a half. There
19:23
Speaker 1: you go. Worth every petty Bengals fans say, get out
19:26
Speaker 1: the pen and sign it now, Joe sounds good. Hey, Brad,
19:29
Speaker 1: this has been great. Appreciate your time, Appreciate your expertise.
19:32
Speaker 1: Keep up the great work. Thank you so much. There's
19:36
Speaker 1: a bunch of great stuff on Pro Football Focus dot
19:38
Speaker 1: com right now, including a really fast mock draft simulator
19:43
Speaker 1: that then grade your picks. I used it to do
19:46
Speaker 1: the first of many three round mock drafts that I
19:49
Speaker 1: will do between now in late April. I got a
19:52
Speaker 1: B minus for taking Utah tight end Dalton Kincaid in
19:55
Speaker 1: round one, a B plus for selecting Alabama cornerback Ricks
20:00
Speaker 1: in round two, and a C for grabbing Tulane running
20:04
Speaker 1: back Taje Spears in round three. My overall grade was
20:08
Speaker 1: a bus I'll see if I can get that grade
20:11
Speaker 1: up after spending a couple of days at the NFL
20:14
Speaker 1: Scouting Combine. The Bengals Booth podcast is brought to you
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Speaker 1: guiding you to your best health. Visit Kettering health dot
20:44
Speaker 1: org to learn more. If you're like me, you can't
20:48
Speaker 1: get enough information about Joe Burrow and his rise to
20:52
Speaker 1: NFL stardom. Well, Scott Person and Sam Smathers have literally
20:57
Speaker 1: written the book about him. It's called From Bulldog to Bengal,
21:02
Speaker 1: The Joe Burrow Story through the Eyes of his Hometown,
21:05
Speaker 1: and it will be available soon. Scott burst and join
21:09
Speaker 1: me this week to discuss the book. Scott, explain your
21:14
Speaker 1: connection to Athens, Ohio and why you chose to write
21:17
Speaker 1: about Joe Burrows upbringing. So. I grew up in Athens
21:20
Speaker 1: and I'm an Athens High school graduate. I've been following
21:23
Speaker 1: Joe on a granular level since high school. I mean,
21:27
Speaker 1: the story almost writes itself, doesn't it. I mean, it's
21:29
Speaker 1: an amazing story. I decided to co author it with
21:32
Speaker 1: Sam Smathers. Sam was Joe's first football coach, so he
21:37
Speaker 1: coached Joe from third through sixth grade, and he has many,
21:41
Speaker 1: many stories to tell, so I thought we were a
21:43
Speaker 1: good combination. One of the many things I learned from
21:47
Speaker 1: reading the book is how good the other members of
21:50
Speaker 1: the Borough family were as players. I think people know
21:54
Speaker 1: that his dad, Jimmy, played in the Canadian Football League.
21:56
Speaker 1: Maybe they know he had a few games of experience
21:58
Speaker 1: in the NFL, but they probably don't know that he
22:02
Speaker 1: was an All league cornerback at Nebraska. He won the
22:05
Speaker 1: Cotton Bowl, he won the Sugar Bowl. Joe's half brother Jamie,
22:08
Speaker 1: started on a national championship contending team at Nebraska. They're
22:13
Speaker 1: not the Manning brothers maybe, but Joe was pretty much
22:17
Speaker 1: born to do this. He what he was, and his
22:20
Speaker 1: other brother Dan also played at Nebraska's so Robin grew
22:25
Speaker 1: up in Nebraska. That was their hope from the beginning
22:27
Speaker 1: that Joe would play at Nebraska, but it wasn't in
22:30
Speaker 1: the cards. He really didn't get a lot of attention
22:32
Speaker 1: from Nebraska, which Ohio state. Of course, he transferred and
22:36
Speaker 1: they went back to Nebraska again they weren't interested. It
22:40
Speaker 1: all played out that he was going to go to
22:41
Speaker 1: either UC or LSU, and again he went to LSU
22:44
Speaker 1: and won the national title. During that process where he
22:48
Speaker 1: was deciding whether he would go to Cincinnati or LSU,
22:51
Speaker 1: I was speaking to Cincinnati's head coach at the time,
22:53
Speaker 1: Luke Fickle, regularly getting updates on Joe Burrow, and I
22:57
Speaker 1: learned from reading your book that his brother Dan played
23:01
Speaker 1: a pivotal role in Joe ultimately deciding to go to
23:04
Speaker 1: LSU instead. Yeah. So yeah, Dan and Coachoe down at
23:09
Speaker 1: LSU really have a bond. They really developed a bond.
23:12
Speaker 1: Joe does not like being recruited, and so he wouldn't
23:16
Speaker 1: answer the phone calls from Coachoe, and so Coachoe would
23:19
Speaker 1: just call Dan every night. So Dan was the one
23:22
Speaker 1: ultimately who I think convinced Joe that this was the
23:25
Speaker 1: place if you want to win a national title, I
23:27
Speaker 1: want to play at the highest level than LSU as
23:29
Speaker 1: your place. We are visiting with Scott Burson. He has
23:32
Speaker 1: written From Bulldog to Bengal, The Joe Burrows Story with
23:36
Speaker 1: Sam Smathers, one of Joe's youth coaches. People say that
23:40
Speaker 1: Joe has helped put Athens on the map. How did
23:43
Speaker 1: Athens and the athletes that Joe grew up with help
23:47
Speaker 1: Joe become what he is. This class that he happened
23:50
Speaker 1: to be in is the most athletic class ever to
23:53
Speaker 1: go through Athens High School, not only the boys but
23:55
Speaker 1: the girls. So I think there were twenty one twenty
23:57
Speaker 1: two that got sports athletic scholarship to college. So they
24:01
Speaker 1: were a remarkable class for such a small town. And
24:05
Speaker 1: so it wasn't just Joe. I mean he had a
24:07
Speaker 1: lot of compliments. The Lorman Twins played at Ohio University,
24:11
Speaker 1: he had a running back he ended up going to Northwestern,
24:14
Speaker 1: So I mean he was surrounded by a really strong cast.
24:18
Speaker 1: Joe has been the leader of the Bengals franchise almost
24:21
Speaker 1: from day one. When did those leadership traits start to
24:25
Speaker 1: stand out in Athens? That's interesting. I mean I think
24:28
Speaker 1: everyone recognized him as a leader from the very beginning.
24:31
Speaker 1: I mean when Sam Smathers met him when he was
24:34
Speaker 1: a third grader, he immediately said, He's going to be
24:36
Speaker 1: my quarterback, just because he has those leadership skills. He
24:39
Speaker 1: can understand the offense. His dad was a defensive coordinator,
24:44
Speaker 1: and so he learned how defenders think very very early,
24:47
Speaker 1: and so he was very good as as a quarterback.
24:51
Speaker 1: Zakaia Saltzman, one of his best friends, told me when
24:53
Speaker 1: I was writing the book that he thought that growing
24:56
Speaker 1: up in Athens. Athens is such a diverse place. Got
25:00
Speaker 1: country folk, you've got city folk, You've got Ohio University,
25:03
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty different countries represented there. You know,
25:07
Speaker 1: growing up in a diverse place, you learn how to
25:09
Speaker 1: relate to different people in the locker room. And so
25:12
Speaker 1: Joe is really good at relating to everybody in the
25:14
Speaker 1: locker room. And I think Athens had a role to
25:16
Speaker 1: play in that. So anybody familiar with my work knows
25:20
Speaker 1: that I love anecdotes. I love nuggets, and your book
25:24
Speaker 1: is full of them. And I'm not going to spoil
25:27
Speaker 1: the book by bringing up too many, but I do
25:29
Speaker 1: want to spotlight a few. We all remember Joe's Heisman's
25:32
Speaker 1: speech where he raised awareness of people dealing with poverty
25:36
Speaker 1: and hunger in the Athens area. This wasn't something that
25:40
Speaker 1: Joe worked on for weeks. He basically scribbled that on
25:45
Speaker 1: a note card that day. Correct. Yeah, So Robin, his
25:49
Speaker 1: mother said to Jimmy his dad, about an hour before
25:53
Speaker 1: they were supposed to be over at the venue, Hey,
25:55
Speaker 1: do you think Joe has anything written down. He said,
25:58
Speaker 1: you better go check on him. So Jimmy went and
26:01
Speaker 1: he was he just put a couple and he was
26:02
Speaker 1: putting a couple notes on a note card. Jimmy's not
26:05
Speaker 1: sure if he even used the note card. So that
26:07
Speaker 1: was very much. You know, I think a speech that
26:10
Speaker 1: came from the heart. You can see it. It's it's
26:13
Speaker 1: hard for Athenians like me to watch it without tearing up.
26:17
Speaker 1: You know, I've seen it many many times and writing
26:19
Speaker 1: this book, and it's still it still touches me. Jimmy
26:22
Speaker 1: has the note card, correct, Jimmy does have the note card,
26:25
Speaker 1: Yes he does. That would be a valuable piece of memorabilia,
26:28
Speaker 1: that's for sure. Yeah. So Joe has his Heisman trophy.
26:33
Speaker 1: He also has a trophy for winning Mister Football in Ohio,
26:37
Speaker 1: even though that trophy does not exist. Share that story. Yeah.
26:42
Speaker 1: So he won Mister Football his senior year and he
26:45
Speaker 1: was being interviewed and he just very casually said, so
26:48
Speaker 1: when do I get the trophy? And the guy said, well,
26:51
Speaker 1: there is no trophy, and Joe was like, what do
26:54
Speaker 1: you what do you mean there's no trophy? You know
26:56
Speaker 1: this is you know, so at any rate, he went
26:58
Speaker 1: home and Robin and Jimmy had a trophy made for him.
27:02
Speaker 1: They went down to Zones, which is a place on
27:05
Speaker 1: Eastate Street in Athens, and they just had a mister
27:08
Speaker 1: mister football, mister Ohiward football trophy made and they put
27:11
Speaker 1: it on their mantle. I love that We are chatting
27:14
Speaker 1: with Scott Person who has written from Bulldog to Bengal,
27:17
Speaker 1: the Joe Burrows story through the eyes of his hometown,
27:19
Speaker 1: along with Sam Smathers. Going back to the draft, the
27:22
Speaker 1: twenty twenty draft conducted from Roger Goodell's basement. At least
27:26
Speaker 1: in the first couple of rounds. We all saw Joe
27:29
Speaker 1: get that call in his living room. One thing I
27:31
Speaker 1: never heard about was the scene outside the Borough home
27:36
Speaker 1: when that happened. And you have a great anecdote about that. Yeah,
27:40
Speaker 1: So the high school organized a bit of a caravan
27:45
Speaker 1: after he was draft at number one, and they kind
27:47
Speaker 1: of snaked cars, just snaked through the neighborhood. They're in
27:50
Speaker 1: the plains and they were honking their horns and they
27:53
Speaker 1: were very excited and Robin and Jimmy waved from the window,
27:56
Speaker 1: but Joe was doing interviews, so it might have interrupted
27:59
Speaker 1: his was a little bit, but he wasn't able to
28:01
Speaker 1: go outside and say hi, but his parents did. So
28:04
Speaker 1: I'm picturing the scene from Field of Dreams at the
28:07
Speaker 1: end of the movie where you just see the headlights
28:09
Speaker 1: stretch for as far as the eye can see. It
28:11
Speaker 1: was similar to that. Yeah, yeah, something like that. At
28:15
Speaker 1: the time of the NFL Draft, there was rampant speculation
28:20
Speaker 1: on the NFL network and elsewhere that Joe didn't want
28:23
Speaker 1: to come to Cincinnati. He might pull a quote unquote
28:26
Speaker 1: Eli Manning and force his way out. His parents make
28:30
Speaker 1: it pretty clear in your book that that was never
28:32
Speaker 1: the case. Yeah, that was a narrative that they're not
28:36
Speaker 1: really sure how it started. I think it started when
28:40
Speaker 1: Joe just didn't want to be over confident, you know,
28:42
Speaker 1: he didn't he didn't want to just assume that the
28:44
Speaker 1: Bengals were going to take him, even though they'd had conversations.
28:48
Speaker 1: So I think it was just this humility that kind
28:49
Speaker 1: of led to some of his comments that he didn't
28:51
Speaker 1: want to be over confident. Somebody picked up on it
28:54
Speaker 1: and just ran with it, but it really didn't have
28:56
Speaker 1: any merit. Who was most helpful to you and writing
29:00
Speaker 1: this book, um, certainly Sam Smathers, my co author. I
29:04
Speaker 1: mean he arranged interviews, he was a fact checker for me.
29:08
Speaker 1: He gave me anecdotes. So Sam is amazing. He has
29:12
Speaker 1: a garage. His house is adjacent to the Athans High
29:16
Speaker 1: School football field. A garage is called the Dog Pound
29:19
Speaker 1: because of the bulldogs Athens High School Bulldogs. It may
29:22
Speaker 1: be the top Joe Burrow museum in the world. He
29:25
Speaker 1: does have people that stop by from out of state
29:27
Speaker 1: from time to time and knock on the door. But
29:30
Speaker 1: it's it's a lot of fun. It's certain certainly is
29:34
Speaker 1: maybe the best. I don't know, maybe maybe Jimmy and
29:37
Speaker 1: Robin's basement would certainly be up there too with Eisman Trophy.
29:41
Speaker 1: What does Joe mean to Athens and the surrounding communities. Yeah,
29:46
Speaker 1: I think Joe means a lot. I mean, it's a
29:49
Speaker 1: it's a it's an area that has struggled with poverty.
29:52
Speaker 1: It's an area that has needed hope, and I think
29:56
Speaker 1: Joe has provided that that hope in many ways, whether
29:58
Speaker 1: it's through his high st and speech, through his philanthropic efforts,
30:03
Speaker 1: through the Joe Burrow Foundation, which by the way, there
30:06
Speaker 1: is a portion of the proceeds in this book, they
30:08
Speaker 1: go to the foundation, you know, or it's on field
30:12
Speaker 1: effort you know that he puts in. I mean, I
30:14
Speaker 1: think he inspires people to be their best. Not Everyone's
30:17
Speaker 1: going to be a Joe Burrow and play in the NFL.
30:20
Speaker 1: But I know Sam Smathers says he's just as proud
30:23
Speaker 1: as of the kid you know who gets up every
30:26
Speaker 1: day doesn't allow his challenges to overtake him, gets up
30:29
Speaker 1: every day and goes down there and drives the forklift
30:31
Speaker 1: as he is of Joey. What did you learn in
30:35
Speaker 1: studying Joe and talking to all of these people that
30:38
Speaker 1: you had no idea about going in m You know,
30:43
Speaker 1: I would have to say I wasn't fully aware of
30:47
Speaker 1: how deeply embedded many of the people I went to
30:49
Speaker 1: high school are in Joe's life. So his basketball coach
30:53
Speaker 1: is somebody I grew up playing against. One of the
30:57
Speaker 1: guys I grew up with coach Joe four hundred, four
31:00
Speaker 1: hundred games in basketball and baseball. In when he was
31:04
Speaker 1: playing youth sports. There was another lady who got him
31:07
Speaker 1: addicted to carmel apples suckers that I went to high
31:10
Speaker 1: school with Joe, and I had the same lament elementary
31:14
Speaker 1: school principle, we were separated by thirty five years. So
31:18
Speaker 1: again just seeing how many people that I grew up
31:20
Speaker 1: with are a major influence on Joe's life. Another of
31:25
Speaker 1: the anecdotes that's in your book that I didn't know
31:28
Speaker 1: about comes from the National Championship game at LSU. We
31:32
Speaker 1: remember the performance, it was magnificent. We remember the cigar
31:35
Speaker 1: smoking after the game. I didn't realize he suffered a
31:38
Speaker 1: pretty significant injury in that game. Yeah, he did to
31:41
Speaker 1: his ribs. You know, he played the second half, just
31:43
Speaker 1: gutted it out. And that's Joe, though, you know it's you.
31:47
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to drag him off the field, you know.
31:50
Speaker 1: You know everyone's looking at what Patrick Mahones did and
31:52
Speaker 1: we should give him kudos for playing with the ankle
31:56
Speaker 1: way he did. But I mean, Joe would never come
31:57
Speaker 1: out of a game either. So the book ends kind
32:02
Speaker 1: of with what I think a lot of Bengals fans
32:04
Speaker 1: are feeling that it is inevitable that someday Cincinnati will
32:08
Speaker 1: be hoisting a Lombardi Trophy. Clearly, you believe that from
32:12
Speaker 1: the time you've spent learning about Joe and talking to
32:15
Speaker 1: the major influences in his life. Yeah, I don't think
32:18
Speaker 1: Joe's going to be satisfied. To me, he has that trophy.
32:22
Speaker 1: One of the anecdotes in the book, if you don't
32:25
Speaker 1: mind me sharing, this is youth baseball. They were in
32:29
Speaker 1: elementary school. They got a second place trophy at in
32:33
Speaker 1: a nearby tournament. They felt that they had been completely
32:35
Speaker 1: cheated out of the championship. One of the players immediately
32:39
Speaker 1: through the trophy in the trash can another one broke
32:42
Speaker 1: it over his knee. Joe was just very stoic, you know.
32:45
Speaker 1: And Robin ended up calling the coach later on that
32:48
Speaker 1: night and says, I don't know if I should be
32:49
Speaker 1: proud of Joe or if I should be disturbed. But
32:52
Speaker 1: he's been in his room for the last two hours
32:55
Speaker 1: dissecting that trophy piece by piece by piece, and then
32:58
Speaker 1: he tossed it in the trash. I thought that was
33:01
Speaker 1: a great story, and it started very early that second
33:04
Speaker 1: place is not good enough for Joe, and he has
33:06
Speaker 1: a winner's attitude. He's not going to be satisfied until
33:09
Speaker 1: he's at the top of the mountain and the Bengals
33:11
Speaker 1: are at the top of the mountain. Scott. This is
33:13
Speaker 1: an audio podcast but we are doing it via zoom
33:17
Speaker 1: and you are wearing Bengals Super Bowl gear. Were you
33:21
Speaker 1: a Bengals fan or have you become one because of
33:23
Speaker 1: Joe Burrow? I have been a Bengals fan since nineteen
33:27
Speaker 1: sixty eight, So you know, most of us, Dan, I think,
33:30
Speaker 1: adopt the teams that our dad or our mother root for,
33:34
Speaker 1: and that was certainly case for me. I mean, Athens
33:37
Speaker 1: County tends to be split between the Browns and the
33:39
Speaker 1: Steelers and the Bengals, but I can say with all
33:42
Speaker 1: integrity that I've been there since the beginning, So certainly
33:46
Speaker 1: the stars have aligned perfectly for people like me from
33:48
Speaker 1: Athens when Joe was drafted by the Bengals. So you
33:52
Speaker 1: were kind enough to share an advanced copy of the
33:54
Speaker 1: book with me. But it's going to be available soon.
33:58
Speaker 1: Do you know when it will be available and where
34:00
Speaker 1: people will be able to purchase it? Yeah, people can
34:03
Speaker 1: pre order the book right now at Orange Frasier dot com.
34:07
Speaker 1: So it's Orange Frasier Press, so Orange fr azear dot com.
34:14
Speaker 1: It'll be available likely in mid April, all right, so
34:18
Speaker 1: we've got about a month and a half to wait
34:21
Speaker 1: and then everybody can join me in reading from Bulldog
34:24
Speaker 1: to Bengal, the Joe Burrows story through the eyes of
34:27
Speaker 1: his hometown. It's a very enjoyable read. I mentioned a
34:30
Speaker 1: few of the anecdotes in it, but there are dozens
34:33
Speaker 1: and dozens of them that I will be sharing going
34:36
Speaker 1: forward on my broadcasts. Thank you so much for your
34:39
Speaker 1: time today and best of luck with a book. Yeah,
34:41
Speaker 1: thanks so much, Dan, that's going to do it for
34:44
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Speaker 1: find us. I'm Dan Horde, and thanks for listening to
35:21
Speaker 1: The Bengals Booth Podcast.