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Head Go Bonk: Bad · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do. Welcome
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: took too Many Heads on the Hit host Abraham.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm your Bouncy braind host Shane.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about all of
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: the things that humans and non human animals do, and
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: sometimes we talk about bad stuff that happens to us
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: that makes it hard to be regular humans.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So today we are talking about brain injuries effectively
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: like acquired brain injuries in the form of a fairly
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: new development in neuroscience world when we talk about kind
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: of like definitions and stuff that would be CTE.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Yes, this is an episode with a lot of story,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: It's got a lot of heart, a lot of human interest. Yes,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: But if you're joining us for the first time, I
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: would like to say welcome. I hope that you enjoy
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: what you hear in this episode today. And if you're
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: a returning person, then thank you for coming back. And
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: I hope that you continue to find joy in the
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: work that we do. And if either of those groups
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: of people have listened to us and decided or trying
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: to decide if they want to support us then or
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: how they can support us. That's the better thing here
• 1:18
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• 1:20
  Speaker 1: to help this podcast. One thing that you can do
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  Speaker 1: app and subscribe. You can join us on Patreon, where
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: you'll get all kinds of bonus stuff, and I'll talk
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: more about that at the end of this discussion. You
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: also head over to our merch store as well. Either way,
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: I would like to thank you for being here however
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: you got here, and wish you all a happy Boordaine Day.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it is June twenty fifth, the day that
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: we're recording or the day's episode launches, so hopefully you're
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: celebrating all these Also, so Color TV Day, which you
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: know I like color TV.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems like a given at this point. Sure
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: is non color TV an option, but I don't know.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Maybe somewhere it is Day of the Seafarer.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Ooh, okay, it's also Global Beatles Day as in the band,
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: so you know I want to hold your hand.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Indeed, get back it is. I wonder how far you
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: could go in a conversation where the only words you
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: said were the names of Beatles songs or albums, or
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: possibly lyrics. But I think with lyrics you could do it,
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: maybe like just song names.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: I think it would take a real fun turn when
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: you got to I am the Walrus.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Right exactly, Maxwell's silver Hammer right. National Catfish Day.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: It certainly is. I live in a place where there's
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: lots of catfish, so that's kind of fun. It is
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: National Strawberry parfe Day.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Ooh okay. It is school Prayer Band and averse three. Interesting. Interesting,
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Not sure. I have to look into this one because
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: I feel like whatever that is is no longer a thing.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I feel like that thing.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: It's Yeah, there's been an interesting turn on that one.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: I think it is also a World Buttilago Day.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know what that means.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: It's like when folks have the like parts of their
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: skin don't have any melonin at all, like, so they'll
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: you'll see like big white splotches on their skin like
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: it's like a it's like a particular like like pattern
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: of melanin skin formation. So it's like really interesting, and
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: there's like some really beautiful models out there that have
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: that patterning, which is really cool.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Sure, okay, yeah, it is Amateur Radio Week or Amateur
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: if you're fancy Amateur.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: It is Boys and Girls Club Week as well.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Oh that's cool man, that might be something to do
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: an episode on at some point.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: Interesting organization. Yeah, it's Fish our friends, not food Week.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Yes, I agreed, Yes, yes, it is National Body Here
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: Seeing Week, which you know I'm at twenty seven right.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: Now, twenty seven piercings.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just kidding. I don't have any right now. No, no,
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: I got.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: It, just seventeen total at one point, but I don't
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: have that many anymore.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have holes like I've got my ears are
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: still stretched, but I'm at zero right now.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Okay. I was like, wow, I see none on you
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: on your face right now. I wonder where they all are.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: That's the joke, friends, that's the joke. Uh.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: It is National Insect Week for all you entomologists out
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: there and entomology enthusiasts.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and for those of you who live in Florida,
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: it is National Lightning Safety Awareness Week.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: Or that one place in South America. I think where
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: they get like a thousand lightning strikes a year or something.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, something wild like that. Yeah.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Anyway, we're not just a calendar podcast, although we do
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: talk about calendar things. We're actually a podcast that talks
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: about things that affect human behavior or involved in human behavior,
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: also non human behavior. We've talked about animals as well,
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: oftentimes in how they relate to human behavior. But you know,
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: we're humans, so we have a little bias there, and
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: we do lots of weird stuff as a species. So
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: I think there's a lot to unpack in the wide
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: myriad of strange things that humans do and have done
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: over time. I think I've said the things anything I
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: miss in before we jump into our topic.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Now let's go ahead and get into it.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Okay. I will say that we release many episodes on Mondays.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: This is our full length episode, and so this one's
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: gonna go episode length. I guess our minis are short ones.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: They're like ten to fifteen minutes, Eh, fifteen minutes. Let's
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: just say they're fifteen minutes. Everybody comments, yeah, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: but right around there. But anyway, that's what those are.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: This is the full length one, so it is story time.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: Now let's dive into this. I'm gonna I'm gonna kick
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: us off and then we'll just we'll take turns as
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: we go through telling the story, at least initially of
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: a man named Henry Raymond Bousquette or possibly boost Gay.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: And I say that because maybe he was French. Because
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: he was a Canadian boxer, and he was better known
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: than the name I just gave you, Henry Raymond Busque.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: He was better known as del Fontaigne. And this is old,
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: this is a century old. In the early nineteen twenty five's,
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: del Fontainne got busy making a name for himself by
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: getting into boxing competitions in which he was winning quite frequently.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: He was actually coming out as the winner on these,
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: even though he was kind of new to it and
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: was just a middleweight sort of class boxer.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, at just twenty one and a middleweight boxer,
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: Fontaine had several early victories, including some knockouts, and although
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: he did not win against some notable champions, he did
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: last several rounds and ended one match in a draw. Yeah.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, he's like experienced people that he should not
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: have been able to hold his own against as well
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: as he did, so that sort of got people's attention. Sure,
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: so he sort of went, he's going pro with this thing,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: and as one in their early twenty he does. He
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: found a wife, started a family. But you know, his
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: job was being a boxer. His primary means of putting
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: food on the table was his boxing career. And by
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: nineteen thirty one, because remember we started in nineteen twenty five,
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: so just six years later, Key figured the best move
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: for his career was to travel by cattle boat across
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: the Atlantic Ocean to go do boxing in the UK.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: I guess that was the thing. Maybe boxing was huge
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: over there, or maybe it was the thing. I don't know,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: but that was the that was the move that he made.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like England has a really interesting history
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: of just having creatures fight each other and it's mostly
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: humans fighting other things like that was like before Shakespeare
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: showed up. There was the bear baiting arenas and whatnot.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: Like one of Shakespeare's theaters was originally like, oh, like
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: we used to fight bears here and have people fight
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: bears here. So boxing makes sense in the UK sure, Okay,
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: So anyway, upon his arrival, he had a really strong
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: star with twenty four wins, three losses, four draws. Report
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: suggest that he was quite entertaining to watch because one
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: he would apparently land super powerful hits such as haymakers
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: and uppercuts, and two he had a strategy of putting
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: up a little defense, putting up very little defense, I
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: should say, allowing himself to take significant blows to create
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: openings he could use to land his devastating hits on
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: his opponents. So basically he would kind of like open
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: himself up to take a hit so that he could
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: open them up to give them, you know, kind of
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: like a return or like a retaliatory punch.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it was like I'm going to go ahead
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: and expose my face because when they go to hit me,
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be able to get closer to them
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: and really hit them. Yeah, and he could sort of
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: he could take it in more or less, and that
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: was apparently really fun. You know, people get to see
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: a lot of those hits land, so like Homer, yeah, yeah,
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: with the cannonballs so.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: Well, and his boxing career, he had a boxing career
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: where like that was his whole thing. He just could
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: take punches until the boxers exhausted themselves.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: Oh I do remember that one as well. Yeah, but
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: multiple times he was getting a hit with things. Apparently.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: Explains a lot. Uh, explains a lot, all right. So
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: he's over here in the UK, he's doing his boxing thing,
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: He's got his wife and child back home. He starts
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: a relationship with a waitress named Hilda meeks I did
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: find a source that suggested her name may have been
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: Hilda weeks but most things just referred to her as
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Hilda meeks By, just to set the record straight as
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: much as possible. So he enjoyed this nice two year
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: relationship with her while he had his wife and at
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: home taking care of their childs. And that was what
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: he was up to over there.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: Yep. So by the end of nineteen thirty three, Fontaine's
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: successes were taking it on the chin. Over his next
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: several matches, he ended with only four wins, sixteen losses,
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: and two draws.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he came in hot originally. I mean he was, like,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: you know, out of thirty one matches, he won twenty
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: four of those, sure, and like some people looked at
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: like the last twelve or or last fourteen matches, he
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: won like twelve or the fourteen or something. Now we
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: have twenty two two matches and he only wins four
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: of all of them, and only two of them were draws. Yeah,
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: so his career seems to be taking the plunge. And
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: one night in July in nineteen thirty five, I think
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: it was July tenth, if that matters to anybody, Fontaine
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: happened to. I don't know exactly how this played out.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: The description wasn't very clear, but he walked in somehow
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: on Hildemik's his partner, second partner mistress. She was making
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: some arrangements on the phone. I think she was making
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: some arrangements to meet up with another man, presumably to
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: go on a date, was at least what he thought,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: and so he flies into a rage. He attempts to
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: yell at the man on the phone. He's also yelling
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: at Hilda, just causing a ruckus.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like a bad situation.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: The problem is there was just a misunderstanding because she
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: was just kind of doing a phone ad. Okay, so
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: we're back. We are at the stage where Fontaine has
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: discovered Meeks making an arrangement with another person. He is
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: freaking out, yelling and causing a ruckus. Now, Hilda's mom,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: who was apparently in the house, came to the room
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: upon hearing the commotion and attempted to protect her daughter.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: Fontane pulled out a revolver, so Hilda and her mother
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: fled the property. However, as they attempted to make their escape,
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: Fontaine shot them both.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So Hilda's father, his name was Sam. He returned
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: to the house. He sees Fontaine carrying Hilda's lifeless corpse inside,
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: and I'm sure that he was emotionally distraught. Fontane apparently
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: told him told Sam, I've done for her and done
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: for the old woman, as a direct quote, indicating that
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: he believed he had killed them both. Actually, Hilda's mother
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: did survive. Hilda, however, did not.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: She died. Yeah. Fontaine was of course arrested and brought
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: the trial, during which his defense lawyers argued that Fontaine
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: was not responsible for his actions because he was quote
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: punch drunk, as evidenced by his violence, as well as
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: his string of recent failures in boxing matches.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Nevertheless, whether or not he was punched drunk probably didn't
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: matter that much. He killed this young pretty girl, and
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: he was found guilty and hanged in the Wandsworth Prison
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: in London and October nineteen thirty five.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: Yep. So why are we talking about this, Well, because
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: of the term here punk drunk. We want to unpack
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: that in kind of where it leads to in modern
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: day science, in modern day health. So that's what we're
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: gonna do next. We're gonna unpack the term punch drunk.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So the idea of being punched drunk had been
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: around for like a little while, and it was mostly
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: believed to be a symptom of boxing, almost exclusively. That's
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: why it was called punch trunk. Puzzibly, anything that was
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: fighting where you got punched this could be applied. But
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: like people thought of this as being a thing that
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: boxers would deal with. Now, doctors at the time they
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: did understand that had trauma led to serious complications even
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: when there weren't necessarily observable structural damages. So, like I
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: think there was maybe a thought for a while that
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: if you had a skull fracture that you might have
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: brain injury, but you couldn't have actual brain injury unless
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: the skulls like integrity was compromised. Sure, but they did
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: know at this point that like even if you didn't
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: necessarily have a fractured skull or fractured spinal columns, that
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: you could still have that brain injury. But they initially
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: thought that conditions such as concussions that would happen in
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: situations like this were transient and they did not produce
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: major structural changes to the brain, in part because they
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: had not found any evidence of this at least yet.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: Right now, improving detection suggested that head traumas, even those
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: that didn't have visible damage and only resulted in concussions,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: might cause what they described as micro allsions and what
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: essentially amounted to internal bleeding in the brain. So basically,
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: anytime like somebody hit their head hard enough, it caused
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: these small moments where the brain would bleed, and it
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: would cause this internal bleeding which would ultimately cause you know,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: ongoing tissue damage to the soft the soft mushiness that
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: is the thing inside your skull.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Right, So, building on this, so they did start to
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: understand in like the nineteen teens nineteen twenties era a
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: little bit this idea that like you didn't necessarily have
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: overt physical damage, but you still had internal brain damage.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: Like that was at least understood as being a thing
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: that could happen. And building on this, doctor Harrison Martland
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: made the connection between the micro hemorrhages, those microelesians and
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: boxers who were particularly frequent recipients of head traumas. So
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: he is the one who sort of connected those ideas.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: And he published a paper in nineteen twenty eight, and
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: the paper was just called punch Drunk. You can look
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: this up, you can go find it, you can read
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: it yourself. Harrison Mattland, nineteen twenty eight, punch Drunk, in
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: which he documented twenty three cases of boxers described as
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: punch drunk. And I'm also going to quote some other
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: words that he used, which a apparently were in the
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: zeitgeist because he kind of put them in quotes as well.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: You could be punch drunk or cuckoo, goofy, slug nutty
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: and cutting paper dolls. Sure, and that comes straight from
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: the paper he published. That's what he called it. Quick
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: side note on that, I tried looking in many places
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: for anything that indicated what that could have meant or
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: where it came from. I think we could broadly understand
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: that if that is a term, some kind of epithet
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: that's being used alongside kooky, goofy, punch drunk, and apparently
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: slug nutty. Like what it's supposed to me? But I
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: have no idea why, and I could not find anything
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: on it. So cutting paper dolls was another term he
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: used in there, I guess anyway, Moving on here, Martlin
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: noted that changes in their behavior could be observed almost
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: immediately following head trauma. He even noted in the paper,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: like it might be observable during the match, like if
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: they're in a match and they take a head hit,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: you might see they like start to stumble a bit,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: like lose their balance and lose their focus and stuff.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: So he he was citing directly observable evidence of this,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: this idea of being punched drunk in boxers.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: Sure. I do like the term slug nutty though. That's
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: pretty good, right. It took me a minute to get it.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: I was like, Uh, what does this have to do
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: with slugs? I was like, oh, right, Like you have
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: to understand that, like a slug is like a punch,
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Like they got slugged and then they're slug nutty as
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: a result. That's that's very good. Yeah, So yeah, I
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: do like that one a lot.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: I can also hear it in nineteen twenty's voice, like
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: he's slug nutty.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: Ah, yes, good old Doc box over there, slug nutty.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: So what we actually found is that as as studies
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: went on and they start understanding head trauma a little bit,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: more cases extended well beyond boxers. Even victims of domestic
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: abuse were starting to receive recognition as being punch drunk
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: due to repeated episodes of head trauma. So you start
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: seeing this kind of show up in more places than
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: just among pugilists, and.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: They did still call it punch drunk, like even people
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: like domestic abuse victims and that sort of thing.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Which is unfortunately insensitive for that, Like when you really
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: think about like.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: That, oh my god, yeah like that, it feels like
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: you're really downplaying the significance of the fact that this
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: is an unwilling victim who is like brutalized by some jerk.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Jerk is putting it way too nicely. They're in piece
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: of yeah exactly, don't worry, justin bleeped all that, so okay, anyway,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: to sound more scientific, this was also called traumatic encephalopathy
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: of pugilists. They also called it dementia pugilistica. And as
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: you already use the term and many people might know.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: But in case you hear that and you're like, what
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: does that mean, pugilist means boxer.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a good word though. Plist is a great word.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, honestly, like I feel like we could and should
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: be using it more. Yes, if we're going to talk
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: about boxing, Yes, all right, So that is sort of
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: the evolving medical term. There is this like dementia pugilistica.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: That was actually one of the more popular ones, and
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: that was the one that's stuck until doctor McDonald Critchley
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: in nineteen forty nine, who officially, I know it was
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: a good name. That's the first name is McDonald McDonald
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: Critchley in nineteen forty nine, who officially coined the term
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: chronic traumatic encephalopathy or CTE to describe this head trauma,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: although still mostly applying it to boxers at this time.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: Right, that is, until a man named Mike Webster shows
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: up with a name that's not quite as cool as
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: McDonald Critchley.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: True. True, So we just got the term CTE and
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: it was again largely thought of as the thing for boxers,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: the pugilists, if you will, until we have Mike Webster.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: So we're back to storytime. We have another person to
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: talk about of interest. We have a couple, will be
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: someone after this, but all right, so we have Mike Webster.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: He was born in nineteen fifty two. He had a
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: very inauspicious childhood. He in journal multiple issues. His parents
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: got divorced, he went through poverty, they lost their house
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: and a house fire when he was young, and he
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: found a lot of sort of refuge and he found
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: his group of people if if you will, in high
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: school sports, notably football. Apparently he played a bunch of sports,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: but he was really into football.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is a time, you know where they
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: like really only started developing helmet technology or maybe we're
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: still wearing leather helmets, which is really fun, right, but
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: you know, we'll get we'll get into all that. Mike
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: was evidently kind of a small guy for football, so
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: he had to work much harder to succeed, and somewhat
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: similar to Fonteine, he had to kind of take it
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: on the chin, if you will, and he often ended
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: up playing center or guard. As you know, some of
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: his some of his positions.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: People who know football will probably know what that means.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: I didn't bother looking it up, but that was apparently
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: his positions. So sure the way that described his experience
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: as though, make me think that he was getting hit
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: a lot, because that was what they said.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, those positions tend to lead with their heads a lot, Okay,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: even though they're not like like heavy hits, they tend
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: to lead and push with their heads, so like they'll
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: connect heads with people on the line pretty often.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you for that explanation. Actually, I feel like there's
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: a not insignificant chunk of our audience who like me,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, like those sound like positions. Sure.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So just for context, so everybody knows the center
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: is the person that hikes the ball to the quarterback.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: So they're the one that's got their hand on the
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: ball when the quarterback goes but hike and they're in
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: the middle, and so then they what they do is
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: they hike the ball to the quarterback and they push
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: forward into the defensive line. And when they do that,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: they lead with their heads and so like they'll just
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: bump heads. It's minor, it's usually minor, but it's consistent.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: It's every single play.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, like dozens of times per game if not, yes, yeah, exactly.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: So he did sustain a bunch of injuries, as is
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: gonna happen a lot of times when you're playing high
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: impact sports like this, but he never complained about the pain.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Matter of fact, it was kind of a character trait
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: of his. The people said about him. He just not
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: a complainer. He even attempted to play through injuries. One time,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: he had like torn cartilage in his knees and like
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: kept playing or something even though he was like walking
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: on crutches. Yeah, I was nuts. He also earned the
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: reputation and nickname of Iron Mike for his toughness and
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: his attempts to stand his ground when players much larger
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: than him were slamming their arms into his head because
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: he wasn't very large, so like they're kind of towering
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: over him, and they're they're running into him anyway, and
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: he's sort of taking it on the head, but they're
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: hitting it with their arms, so they're not during the
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: same sort of damage, if you will. And yeah, he
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: apparently worked out a lot, Like he just did a
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: ton of exercise to get as strong as he could,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: and so he would be really successful at holding them back,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: even though he was kind of a small guy, but
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: he worked really hard for that, and he would just
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: he would allow himself to be the punching bag for
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: the team, if you will.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of like our audience is the plunging bag
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: for ads.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, we're back. We are in the middle of telling
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: the story of Mike Webster, our second story of the episode,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: where at the point where he's been playing football and
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: getting hit on the on the noggain a lot.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, So Webster played two hundred and twenty games over
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: fifteen season. Fifteen seasons is a long time to play football,
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: by the way.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: I thought it was. I was like, that seems like
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: a long time. But I'm just not that familiar with
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: like sports careers, but I'm like, that seemed like fifteen
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: years seems like a long time.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: It's a long time. Yeah, fifteen seasons. And he played
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: for the Pittsburgh Steelers, which we are notoriously tough team
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: in a notoriously tough town. Pittsburgh is a tough town.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: My family's from Pittsburgh, and it is a steel mill
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: city that has evolved in a river valley like it's
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: a really bizarre place. Goho Steelers beautiful and I love it.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: Gho Steelers. But after his last season, he moved with
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: his wife back to his hometown in Wisconsin, and after that,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: his wife noticed some disturbing changes in his behaviors.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: So at one point he had been sort of the
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: manager of their finances, but they moved back to Wisconsin,
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: and he's starting to lose track of his bills. He's
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: not paying his bills, he's not even opening letters, he's
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: not even paying taxes anymore. And she noted that she
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: felt like he seemed he was like he was angry
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: all the time. And eventually he lost all his money
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: on bad investments and he and his wife ended up separating.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was unable to hold a job, would
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: sometimes get lost in a peer confused, and had basically
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: become a wreck loose. By the time he was inducted
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: into the Hall of Fame in nineteen ninety seven, he
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: had no money, couldn't afford furniture, and so he slept
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: on the floor with his son, who he was taken
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: care of. But then he couldn't afford what little medicine
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: had been helping him, and he shook so bad, like
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: had tremor so bad that he could also no longer drive.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that meant it was even harder to get a job.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: He couldn't drive his kid to school, like all kinds
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: of stuff falling apart for him, and like people noted
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: like his odd behaviors and didn't know what was going
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: on with him. He couldn't hold onto money at all. Eventually,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: he died of a heart attack at the age of
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: fifty and two thousand and two. But his story was
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: actually the beginning of another one, very importantly, because people
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: who watched this tragedy unfold wanted answers and a pioneering neuropathologist,
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: among other esteemed titles. This person had lots of the
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: titles like that autopsied a Webster's brain to determine what
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: had happened and why, Like why did this guy end
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: up like this? He was this beloved, celebrated figure with
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: this just tragic story.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is not the only story that comes up. Right,
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: So doctor Bennett Omelu, who's a neuropathologist who performed these optospies,
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: was able to gather and publish the first ever hard
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: evidence of CTE using Webster's brain, showing that his head
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: trauma was to blame for his behaviors and possibly even
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: his early death.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: And this was in two thousand and four or two
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: thousand and five that this was published for the first time.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: So we knew about the idea of like head trauma
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: as are related to boxers in the nineteen twenties, probably
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: even before that, but that was when the connection was
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: really made to these hemorrhages, these micro neural hemorrhages and boxing.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: CTE is coined in nineteen forty nine as a term,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: but we don't get the first actual published evidence of
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: this until two thousand and five, eighty years later, and
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: following the just tragic downfall of this poor guy who
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: was a football player and just took a huge amount
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: of damage to his cranium there.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: So I think that timeline is important because the first
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: official hard science evidence like publication on CTE comes out
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: in two thousand and four, we start knowing about this,
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: which means that there are decades of people who have
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: played football, who have taken head injuries, who have probably
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: experienced this that you know. And this takes time. This
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: isn't just a one incident where it's like you bump
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: your head once and all of a sudden, you got CTE.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: This takes time to develop and as the structures of
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: the brain and start to break down, and we'll talk
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: more about that in a little bit. But another really
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: I think famous example of how CT can really, you know,
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: destroy somebody's life is the example of Chris bin Waugh.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: So Chrispin wa Is, I'll keep this short and brief
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: because I think it's it's one of a good example
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: of like how CT can really like, you know, cause
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: some problems. Chrispin Waugh was a wrestler who also went
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: by the nickname of the Canadian Crippler, the Rabbit Wolverine.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: He was just like really stocky, tough wrestler and one
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: of his moves that he did for his entire twenty
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: two year career was that he would do this diving headbutt.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: He would jump off the top rope of the ring
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: and he would head butt there his opponent who was
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: laying on the ground. And basically every single time he
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: would do this, which you know, wrestlers wrestle you know,
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: three hundred, three hundred and fifty matches a year because
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: they were wrestling almost every night.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they work all.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: They work a lot, so he's doing this consistently. Every
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: time he does this, he's causing a little bit more damage,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: a little bit more damage, a little bit more damage,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: and it really took his toll. So he was forty
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: years old when he died. And there's the story of
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: he was supposed to show up for a taping for
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: a wrestling event. He did not show up. Everybody was worried.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: They thought he quit, they thought he was sick. Come
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: to find out he had actually passed. He had actually
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: murdered his wife and son and then strangled himself with
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: his workout equipment. And they had done the autopsy. The
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: reason I bring this up is like that it's a
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: horrifically tragic story, especially if you are at all following
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: professional wrestling and you know kind of like a lot
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: of the stuff that's happened. But they did his autopsy
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: and they said that his CTE was so bad that
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: he was He's a forty year old man who effectively
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: had the brain of a ninety year old with advanced dementia.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: That's how severe the structures in his brain were damaged
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: as a result of just constantly hitting his head in
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: all these different situations and it resulted in a pretty aggressive,
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: I mean I say pretty aggressive, severely aggressive outburst that
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: cost the lives of three people. And so yeah, you
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: could see kind of how this can this This is
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: one of those things where over time it can really
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: build up and it can it can lead to some
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: pretty significant tragedies.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And you know, I know we've mentioned this before,
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: but like there the proportion of violent criminals in prison
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: who have like some kind of traumatic brain injury is
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: like most of them. Yeah, like it's like a huge
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: proportion of them. It's it's so many. I don't remember
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: the exact numbers, but it was something I learned, you know,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: a long time ago, and I doubt that that's changed much.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: But like a precursor for violence in many cases is
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: brain injury.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, brain injury, brain image. Sixty six percent of people
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: that are in American prison systems have some form of disability,
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: and the majority of those disabilities are neurological.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Aw did you did you guys just have that like
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: ready to go?
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Yes? I did.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's impressive so much.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Hey, look look sometimes I know stuff. It's my Snapple
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: cap for today. Man.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: This episode almost reads like a true a true crime anymore,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: you know, I know, And that was our yeah, so,
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: which was not our intent. But I think it does
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: help illustrate the point here of like how severe of
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: a problem this is and how preventable of a problem
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: this is. Like you know, when we talk about things
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: that are congenital and we understand that those are they
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: happen and it sucks, and like we want to try
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: and support those people, but like we don't always know
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: how to prevent that from happening in the first place. Yeah,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: And this is a thing that we do know how
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: to stop it from happening in the first place.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: I think it's really important to remember that this is
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: this is an acquired brain injury, right, Like there's a
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: difference between like a congenital brain injury, like somebody is
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: born with it, Like there's like, you know, traumatic brain
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: injury stuff like that, But this is an acquired injury
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: over lengthy periods of time.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I mean, God, you just your heart goes
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: out to them. That's it's so hard.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: And I mean it's not not at all that you
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: that you can excuse those kind of behaviors, Like it's
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: still it's still terrible that they did those violent things
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: and hurt those other people, like of course, but like
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: we also understanding how they got there, Like, and that's
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: what I think makes it so tragic, is like everybody
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: was kind of a victim here, but you know, you
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: ended up with the one person who is ultimately the perpetrator.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: I mean that's essentially what's going on with RFK and
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: his position. Yeah, okay, Junior, his position of the government.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Like a person who has brain injury, and like you
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: feel bad for the guy, but you also hate everything
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: he's doing because right, you know, he's he's too got
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: too much brain damage to know how brain damaged he is.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: Right, And that's exactly it. Yeah, it's insidious because it
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: doesn't show up right away. It starts showing up in
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: these little ways that people will just kind of ignore. Right,
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Like we talked about, Like you start having a little
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: like a few tremors here and there, and you start
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: kind of like you start like your memory gets a
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: little bit foggy, and you're like, oh yeah, whatever, like
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: it's you know, maybe I'm just having an off day.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, it's too late. Yeah, right,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Like you start seeing mood changes all of a sudden.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: It's too late. You're like, oh, like, I mean, there's
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: no way to reverse it. Anyway, we'll unpack that, but
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: it is important to know that, like, once you start
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: noticing it, it is too late.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately, I'd be willing to bet, like we are definitely,
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: unless something terrible happens to us, we're gonna outlive RFK
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: Junior when they autopsy his brain, at least I hope
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: they do. Like I'd be willing to bet that his
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: brain looks like some unholy combination of like oatmeal and
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: Swiss cheese.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Like, yeah, it's going to be bad.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: Anyway. We've been talking this whole time about some of
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: the effects or yeah, the like outcomes of CTE, like
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: the yeah, this thing develops and the consequences of that,
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: the severity of the consequences of that, and the and
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: the that this is it's serious, like it sucks, it's
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: it's a really serious thing.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, ads are.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Not so serious, but they are also damaging to your
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: experience of a podcast and inevitable. Okay, we're back. Let's
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: go ahead and like really dig into what's going on
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: with CTE because I think that you know, we've we've
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: talked about the consequences here and just elaborating on what's
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: happening under the dome if you will, Yeah, cranial dome. Yeah.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: I think one of the most important things like takeaways
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: from this whole discussion is really understanding what's going on
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: with the CTE, because most neurologists today understand that ct
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: develops not from a single instance of head trauma generally speaking,
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: but matter of fact, almost most places, they'll say that
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: the won't arise from a single instance of head trauma.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: What CTE comes from is repeated head injuries over and
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: over again. Particularly, there's this idea, it's kind of a
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: hypothesis right now, but there is an idea that if
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: you have a head injury that occurs while a previous
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: head injury is still on, like still healing and still
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: has symptoms that have not yet abated, and this is
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: called second impact syndrome. So it's like you have a
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: concussion and then while that you have that concussion, you
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: get another concussion. So basically they're sort of talking about
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: it's just it's the head injuries just keep coming, even
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: if they're not that severe. It's the fact that they
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: just keep coming. Yeah, that's where they've noticed. Is really
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: the important feature that's going to play into a little
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: bit a really important point as we're going on. So
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: just hold on to that. Remember that it is that ongoing,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: repeated exposure, not necessarily the intensity of it.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, have you have you ever had a head injury? Like,
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: have you ever had a concussion or anything like that.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: So one time when I was seven, I fell out
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: of a tree and then knocked me out.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I took a bunch of bones. Yeah, Oh no.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: And I have been in a couple of fights where
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: I got hit in the face. And I've also been
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: in a couple of bike accidents where I landed not
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: on my head, but I was wearing a helmet fortunately. Yeah,
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: So nothing too serious, No, Like, just a couple instances
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: here and there that were obviously not ideal, but nothing
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: where I got like just getting the knocked out from
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: falling falling into the street was a bad one, but
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: otherwise for the most part, now.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's uh like I've had I've had a couple
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: concussions in my life from like, and thankfully they were
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: spread out so that it was not like I didn't
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: have to deal with like multiple at the same time.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: But they can be pretty gnarly.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: I believe it.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Like people don't realize, like you know, you can't take
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: for granted, Like, okay, you know, I hit my head.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Oh I got a headache. But like when you have
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: a concussion, like you're dizzy, you're throwing up, like you're
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: sensitive to light, like you're disoriented, like you lose you
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: lose blocks of time, Like it is a really harrowing experience.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: I've had a few, and I was trying to think
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: of the circumstances I was in and all of them
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: were so different. Like I was at a punk show
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: and I got dropped on my head. Oh, I was
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: playing baseball and I got I got like just bowled
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: over by somebody who just like I was the big
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: guy on the field, so they were trying to take
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: me out and u And that was pretty gnarly. I
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: got knocked out at work by a client. I got
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: a concussion at work one time, just like like the
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: head with a backpack full of magazines. It just knocked
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: me out. And yeah, it was like they were all mild, thankfully,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: but they were still enough for me to go. Oh,
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: I don't want to. I don't want this. Yeah, like
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: I don't like this, and I got to stop, so
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: thankfully the last one I had was in twenty ten.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: But like it is, it's not fun.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's rough. Yeah, I did take in grad school.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: We took a we were talking about how it works
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: that we were doing like a concussion test, and so
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: like I took a concussion test. It was interesting. I
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: don't remember the details of it exactly. It might be
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: actually a fun mini to like just walk through what
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: they are, yeah, because they're not that hard, but they
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: would definitely be difficult for someone who's like disoriented and
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: having trouble focusing on anything.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. So, as we noted early on,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: the trauma tends to create these small micrommages, right, because
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: we're talking about CTA and CTE is like a you know,
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: it has a cumulative effect, like every small injury that
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: you have, it accumulates and creates this larger problem. And
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: so these microhamages occur and they lead to the build
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: up of a TUEL protein around blood vessels and the
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: degeneration of nerve cells and as our brain is you know,
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: is the way our body connects with all the pieces together,
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: like it puts everything together and makes it all work.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: And it's basically like the pilot for your meat mech,
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: you know, it runs our whole experience. Destroying the wiring
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: that keeps the body running is really bad, like really bad.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean people say like we're nothing but a
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: brain in a way I hate that a sentiment, but
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: in a way it's like also not wrong, right where
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: I like the sentiment is thinking about the fact that,
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: like our hands are also our brain, our feet are
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: also our brain, our stomach is also our brain, right,
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: And it's because everything connects up to one central hub
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: that sort of is how everything's able to work together, right,
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: And that's happens to be this node of neurons that's
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: all sitting together in a big mushy network up in
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: our heads call the brain. And the thing is that
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: when you start damaging those connections bad, I think, so bad,
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: the things don't work as well anymore because all the
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: pieces that held them together are starting to fall apart.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: So it's just rough and unfortunately the really bad news
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: and all of this if you're hearing this waiting for
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: us to like say, well, this is what we do
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: about it. There's no way to even diagnose CTE, at
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: least not while you're alive. Sure, most of the damage
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: that accumulates it happens slowly over time, and there may
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: not even be any overt symptoms for years or even
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: decades after the CTE starts to develop, which means that
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: CTE can be definitively diagnosed sure after you're dead, and
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: autopsy is right now the only way to currently diagnose CTE.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: It's all those micro hemorrhages, and there's so many of them.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: They're so they can occur in different places. There are
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: lots of things that could potentially cause that. They don't
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: necessarily lead to CTE in and of themselves, but accumulated
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: over time they do. But you can't know that until
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: you've actually looked at the brain of someone after they've passed.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: And so it's like you can't even know while someone's
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: alive if that is the reason that they're doing what
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: they're doing.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: Right, And so if you like good news, here's even more.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Symptoms as they manifest are similar symptoms that may arise
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: from other causes. So, for instance, symptoms of CTE may
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: include and I want to put We're going to put
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: a big emphasis on may, right, Okay, because brains are complex.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: They may include memory loss, trouble thinking, struggling with organization,
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: mood and personality changes, impulsive behaviors, suicidal thoughts, emotional instability,
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: struggling with motor coordination and balance, tremors, slow movements, and
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: even difficulties swallowing and breathing. Many of these are the
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: same symptoms that can follow substance abuse, parkts, and dementia
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: pre on diseases as well, So they can be any
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: of those things. And ct is fairly rare, so it
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: is unlikely to be the first thing that doctors consider
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: when trying to diagnose these symptoms. So not only are
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: you going to have these kind of broad sweeping, you know,
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: overlapping symptoms with other situations, it's so rare that you're
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: going to probably miss it for many, many years to
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: like even like notice that they are potential symptoms of
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: CTE exactly.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: And there are a series of tests doctors may try
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: to use to make an educated guess as to the
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: likelihood of whether someone has CTE. And for one thing,
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: if someone has these behaviors and they can also they
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: have like a clear history of the risk factors. So
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: like they have a clear history of the fact that,
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: like this is someone who has had repeated brain injury,
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: they're then probably going to be able to rule that
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: in right or at least not rule it out. If
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: they can definitively identify events that would have resulted in
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: head trauma, then it makes it more likely that that
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: would be an appropriate diagnosis. But they'll never be able
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: to say, like, this is CTE until after someone's dead.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: And again, like there are lots of things that could
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: be even for people who have suffered head trauma, it
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: might still not be that. And so they're going to
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: try and and see what things they can actually diagnose
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: while the person is alive first, and then they won't
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: know and for sure until after the person has died
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: for sure.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: Now we do have some good news. I think that
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: I think is that people will like to hear there
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: is treatment. The treatment is prevention, and that's the only
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: treatment that we've got. Now. The beautiful thing is is
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: that we know situations where there is a higher risk
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: of head injury. So one of the things that you
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: can do is wear a helmet during any activity that
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: carries a risk of head trauma, and to the extent possible,
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: avoid these activities that have head trauma baked into them
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: as a feature of those activities. So like being tackled, punched,
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: being near explosions. If you can avoid those, that's the
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: best thing. But if you're doing something like extreme sports,
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: like if you're skateboarding, like skateboarding is one that comes
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: up often, like people don't like to wear helmets because
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: they're like they're like, nah, whatever, and then like I've
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: some of the most gnarly head injuries I've seen come
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: from skateboarders missing a rail or missing a spot and
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: then banging their head on the concrete, Like it's a
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: really easy space to get a quick concussion. And like
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: I've seen, I've seen my friends have that experience. It
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: is not good. So we just wear a helmet. Wear
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: a helmet when you're biking. I mean, think about this, everybody.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: I've seen this happen more than once where people are like,
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: why would you wear a helmet if you're skydiving, Because
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: you're skydiving. If you shoot fails, you're gonna die anyway. Well,
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: if you shoot fails, it's one thing that's a different conversation.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: But you land hard. I mean skydivers have really bad
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: knee problems because they land very hard. You also run
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: the risk of not landing well, and you could still
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: hit your head on that fall. So like, wear a
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: helmet whenever you can, if you can.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Yes, protect protect your brain, I mean protect your brain.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine that we would even need to
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: emphasize that point. But God, it is so not worth it. It's
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: so not worth it to like try and do that
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: trick fall, hit your head and then end up in
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: a wheelchair where you cannot even go to the bathroom
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: independently or feed yourself with the rest of your life. Right,
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Like I worked in the in the traumatic brain injury
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: like unit for a little while. Yeah, when I was
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: an undergrad and worked with These were mostly like kids
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: who were in their early twenties. Like there's one guy
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: who is maybe thirty who, like all of them, had
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: suffered injuries from totally preventable things, like one of them
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: I think was a motorcycle incident. One of them was
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: doing cliff diving into a lake and slipped and fell
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: and hit their head like eleven times on the way down.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: There were these like really serious brain injuries, and like
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: these are people that like some of them lost their
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: ability to speak, some of them lost all of them
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: lost their ability to have any kind of job, many
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: of them lost some basic motor coordination things, like they
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: couldn't even, like I said, use the bathroom independently. Like
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: just not worth it. Just it's just so not like
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: I can guarantee you that they would have preferred to
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: have worn a helmet and not ended up in that situation.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: And it's not to say that, like we worked really
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: hard to try and give them the best quality of
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: life possible. Like our only job there really in that
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: particular setting was to try and help them be comfortable
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: and like get around and do stuff right, like take
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: them to things they want to go to help make
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: sure they've got enough food that they can eat. So
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: like a lot of people think like, oh, well, you
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: should let them be on their own. I'm like, well,
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: they kind of can't, right, and so like doing our
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: best to just provide support so that they can live
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: a life that they can be okay with, you know,
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: but man, it's just so not worth it. Just protect
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: your brains.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I feel like that's like the general
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: a good general rule. It's like, protect your brain because
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: you've only got one and it's near impossible to repair.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: It's just one of those things where it's just like
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: it can be so easy. That doesn't mean that you
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: shouldn't take risks and enjoy your life like it's certainly not,
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: but like but like you should just you take reasonable
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: risks and make sure that you put those safety precautions
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: in place.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: Exactly, that's exactly. It's like we you know, we're not
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: telling you. You know you don't have to listen tos anyway.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: We're not making policies here, sure, but exactly as you said,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: is like go out and do all the things you
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: want to do, but like I would suggest that you
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: minimize unnecessary exposure to head trauma. And if there's any
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: risk of head trauma, where the most intense helmet you
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: can get your hands, Yes, yes, Like you'll still have fun,
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: and it's just so not worth it to like have
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: the rest of your life be basically like everything that
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: you thought you were going to do is gone. You
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: now have to completely rearrange what your life is going
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: to be. Like you can still have a meaningful life.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: That's death that's great, But like, I really do not
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: think you're going to think, like, well, I'm sure glad
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: I did that. If I had to go back and
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: do it all over again, I definitely would have you know,
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: I think you would. You would choose to let yourself
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: have a lot more choices in terms of like what
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: you get to do moving forward. So yeah, anyway, we
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: also have choices in terms of whether we insert ads
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: and then we do and sorry.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: We made that choice this time. Sorry, all right, so
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: let's get back to it.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: We're talking about the fact that right now what you
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: can do about CT is not get it.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's what I r Yeah, And you know
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: the thing is, too is like like we said, like
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: the best treatment is prevention, because there are no treatments
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: otherwise and there may never be. So there's a really
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: great metaphor that Abraham came up with. I think this
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: is really good. This would be effectively like injecting an
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: apple with an acid or a base that would probably
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: do more visible damage, but basically some agent that will
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: dissolve the very substance of the apple. You're not putting
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: it back together. Those cells are dead, those cells are gone,
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: They're broken. Down, the structures have been eliminated entirely, or
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: the structures can't support cellular growth or regeneration. And as
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: a result, like now you've got this apple that is
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: half an apple that's destroyed and you can't repair it. Yeah,
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: and that's kind of what happens with CTE.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not going to glue it together. You're not
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: going to put some chemical agent and like have those
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: cells rebuild themselves. They're gone. You've come permanently and totally
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: altered them. And like, unfortunately that is the way of
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: the universe. We do not get very many undoe buttons
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: in like real life.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, especially in a neurology world right now.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, especially in a neurology world. So there are some
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: medications that can help manage some of the symptoms, but
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: they will probably be necessary for the rest of that
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: person's life. And all they're doing at best is making
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: the symptoms less terrible. They'll still be there, yeah, and
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: they may not work. Like they might help, but they
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: might not. Yeah, And they're also like you have to
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: pay for that the rest of your life. Those aren't free.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And as we alluded to, people commonly
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: at risk for ct specifically are those who engage in
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: high impact sports, so stuff like ping, pong, poker, darts, sudoku,
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: you know, stuff like that is going to be really
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: really you know, high risk. No, we're just obviously, we're
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: just kidding. So like you know, football, rugby, wrestling, hockey, soldiering,
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: stunt performing, and of course boxing, wrestling, professional wrestling, like
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: you're talking about all these situations where these are really
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: high risk situations. A twenty twenty four study surveyed football players,
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: typically American football players, Yes, thank you, and as many
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: as one third, or thirty four percent believe that they
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: already have CTE. Yeah, thirty four percent of the current
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: active players. That's a lot.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: It's too many, that's a lot. Like that's that's really unfortunate.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: And of course that does mean that we have to
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: talk about the NFL briefly, so of course, making enemies
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: with the wrong people. Sure, there were some initial attempts
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: to gaslight players and audience and observers to gaslight them
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: about their symptoms. NFL attempted to threaten scientists who studied
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: CTE or silence them. Then when that didn't work, they
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: attempted to shrug off ct as a quote unquote occupational hazard,
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: which dude, fuck you, Yeah, like that's bad, incorrect, And
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: since then, the NFL has decided that a better course
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: of action was to attempt to design better safety around
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: the sport, and they've also instituted some new rules as
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: far as like trying to minimize the head hits a
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: little bit and the helmets that are supposed to have
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: like more significant padding and reduce the overall likelihood of
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: getting CTE. So they are taking some steps in the
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: right direction. Of course, this is you know, after years
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: of trying to not have to deal with this. Yeah,
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: but they're at least maybe you know, one new management
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: came on or something there, they are trying to move
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: in the right direction now.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're actually Like something I learned recently too, is
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: like the NFL is working with helmet designers and helmet
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: engineers to design specific helmets for specific positions based on
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: where they're more likely to make head contact. So like
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: the guards and the linemen and stuff, we're going to
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: have more padding on the front of the top of
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: their heads where they're going to make more contact, Whereas
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: like you know, somebody who's like a you know, a
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: receiver or something might have some like more all around
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: padding because they cant hit anywhere, So like there are
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: doing some of that, but like it's also wild to
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: think that the NFL is on the same level as
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: like big tobacco, Like that's that's the way that reads rights,
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: Like that's an occupational hazard. Like oh, you know, people
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: choose the smoke. It's like sure, but like your product
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: is killing people, and that's what NFL is doing right now.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: We will kind of like wrap towards this and say,
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: most scientists are skeptical of the effectiveness of these strategies
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: that we're pointing out. They point to the data that
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: show that there is not the severity of the impact,
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: but small, frequent, repeated exposures to trauma that build over time.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: There's aculative effect here. Further, they point out that the
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: worst cases of CTE are likely to develop for kids
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: who play football in high school and start sustaining injuries early.
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: And it is these kids who are likely to go
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: on to play college football before moving to professional football,
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: so the damage might be well underway by the time
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: they even get to the big leagues. Actually, and I
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: think this makes sense because you're talking about kind of
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: like and this is going to be maybe a little
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: bit armchair neuroscience, and if you are neuroscientists, please reach out.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: Like this makes sense to me because at the time
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: that somebody is playing high school football, their brain is
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: developing at such a rapid pacey, and like it's proving
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: so many of the you know, the neural pathway doing
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: all these things. You're effectively a teenager's brain is mush.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: It's basically like when you're laying sidewalk cement down and
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: then somebody just decides to walk right through it before
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: it dries. That's kind of what is happening here with
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: like high school students, is like their brain is the
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: wet cement, and every injury is just somebody walking through it,
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: just leaving their footprints and not fixing it.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I like that. And they did, actually, you know,
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: the scientists, the studies that have been published, they did
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: say like it's actually one of the worst times for
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: them to be exposed to this kind of traumatic injury too,
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: because like the effects of them getting it at that
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: age will be more profound and last longer and more severe. Yeah,
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: are like not last longer, but like will be more
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: profound more severe, they'll be more susceptible to that brain
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: injury moving forward I was looking for. So it's like it's, yeah,
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: we just I think the overall sort of takeome on
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: all of this is like chronic traumatic encephalopathy CTE. It
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: is bad, And the thing is it's unnecessary, Like we
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: can prevent this and we can do better, and I think,
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: like it is just not worth us, worth it for
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: us to be entertained, to have people have their lives
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: permanently ruined.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I also.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: Think that like one of the things that's kind of
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: weird about this to me with the NFL is I'm like,
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: clearly this was because they they felt that getting the
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: word out about CTE was a threat to their money, Yeah,
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: which by itself is kind of gross. And like there's
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: been very little attempts to actually completely remove the risk
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: of head injury, Like they're trying to mitigate it and
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: try and tytrate it down. And I think that that's good,
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: Like I obviously want them to do that, but I
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: don't think the fact that people are getting hit in
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: the head is the draw for most people watching the sport.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: I think for most people watching the sport. Their entertainment
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: is watching teams compete so that they get a winner.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: And like, I'm sure there's some amount of thrill of
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: like watching a body fly through the air or something
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: or get flipped upside down and get tackled. Like I'm
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: sure that that is part of the fun a little bit,
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: but I don't think it is the most important part
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: for most people. Like some weird sociopaths get a big
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: thrill out of that, but like most people just want
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: to see a game. Because you think of other sports,
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: basketball not a lot of head injury. People love basketball,
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: Baseball not a lot of head injury, particularly not at
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: the rate of like football at least, right, and people
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: love watching baseball. Like there are other sports and other
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: entertaining activities that people watch that have very similar to football,
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: but with less head injury. So I don't think that
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: that's the critical piece of it.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, I would agree.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So anyway, all that is to say, as I
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: said before, like CD sucks. It's it sucks so much.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: It's sad that that anybody has to deal with it,
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: And I think we can do better. We can we
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: can move on from this and not we can try
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: and prevent it from happening. And please everybody, like I said,
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: just protect your brain. Yeah, and protect people around you
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: their brain as well.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly one hundred perc cool.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: All right, Well, I think that's what we have to
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: say about chronic traumatic and cephalopathy. Now you know everything
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: there is to know, except for neurologists would probably disagree
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: with that, and if they do, we would love to
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: hear from them. I'm going to talk about all of
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: the credits, ways that you can get in touch with
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: us and some things, and then we're going to give
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: some recommendations for some fun stuff that's not about CTE.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: But first I'm going to play an ad. Okay, so
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: we're back. I would like to say that if you
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: are a neurologist, or you have a you're a football
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: player or a hockey player, or you have any thoughts
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: whatsoever about these sports or ct we would love to
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: hear from you. One way that you can get your
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: voice to us or even read aloud on an episode
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: is to email us directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: You can also reach out to us on the social
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: media platforms, and we would love to hear from you.
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: Whatever it is you have to say. It doesn't even
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: have to be related to this episode, can be about
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: any other episode or just anything at all. We like
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: interacting with the audience.
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: That's true.
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: In addition, you can support us by heading over to
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: Patreon if you go there to get ad free content
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: behind the Seeds content early releases, as long as I
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: remember to put them out or make sure that I
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: hit publish on those, which I usually do, but I
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: have missed it before, and there's all kinds of bonus content.
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: It really does help us out. And in addition, maybe
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: the thing that you're most interested in is that I
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: will read your name, because here are the people who
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: have made that leap and we really appreciate them, and
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: that is Mike, m Megan, Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad,
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: Stephanie Bryant, Ashley, Kiara, and Charlie. Thank you all so
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: much for your continued help. It's not helping us be
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: a podcast, your beautiful people. In addition, thank you so
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: much to my team of people who help make this
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: happen writing and fact checking from Shane and myself. Our
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: social media coordinator is Emma Wilson, and our guy in
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: the chair making all the audio stuff sound like audio
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: stuff that's good on podcast Earland is Justin. So thank
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: you Justin for everything you do.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we love Justin too.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: All Right, I feel like I'm forgetting something. Is anything
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: I'm forgetting or anything you'd like to add?
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: No, I think it's time to do recommendations.
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: Let's do it, all right, recommendations. I'm recommending a movie.
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: This is a new Ish movie. I think it came
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: out last year. It is by director Bong June Hoe,
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: who people may be familiar with from his work on
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: I think it's called The Host and then snow Piercer
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: and Parasite, which was which won an Academy Award, actually
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: several Academy Awards. And his new movie is called Mickey seventeen,
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: starring Robert Pattinson and Mark Ruffalo as well as Steven
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: jun and Tony Collette. So really good cast, I think
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: I can. I mean, I think the trailers give away
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: the basic premise of this, so I'll just I'll give
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: away what is in the trailers, which is the idea
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: of there's this technology to essentially print humans their DNA.
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: They use this to print people that they can put
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: in dangerous situations where they might die, and then they
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: just print them out again, and then that way they
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: can learn they can learn things about whatever they need
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: to learn about where it would be too risky for
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: humans to do it, but while you where you also
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: would want human biology and human like competence in that space.
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: And so they're like, they'll they'll try poisoning him or whatever,
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: and to see, like what happens when we do this
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: to a human body, so we can learn how it
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: affects other people. Sure, it's dark, it is dark, and
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of dark comedy in here, Like there
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: are some very funny moments, and I think there is
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: a very important sort of colonizing social message in here
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: as well as just a message of sort of othering
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: and oh, what's the word I'm looking for? Zealousness is
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: in there. I guess there's zeal generally.
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: Speaking, maybe like the hubris of science and like like
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: do you the endless pursuit of knowledge in the face
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: of like losing our humanity?
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: Maybe maybe a bit in the I think you could
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: you could super impose that on there. I think, you know,
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: they don't really villainize science, but they do villainize this
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: like we can do whatever we want attitude, which you
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: just have some scientists in it. But anyway, visually stunning movie.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: The effects are incredible. Robert Pattinson is remarkable in this role,
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: particularly because he has to play so many different versions
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: of himself and all of them are a little bit
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: different from one another. I don't know, it's it's really
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: really I loved it. I just thought it was super
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: well done. Right now, it is streaming on HBO or
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: Max or HBO Max whatever they're calling it anymore. It's
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: available there, but check it out wherever you can check
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: it out. I think that you'll like it. If you're
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: at all into like sci fi and social commentary, then
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: I think this is a really really good one. And
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: the pace is great too, Like it just moves along
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: really fast.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: So cool.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, strong recommend.
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: Very good. I love that, all right, So I am
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: gonna recommend the food stuffs nice specifically it's a food
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: stuffs thing in Florida. But they do have some order
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: I guess you can order some stuff online from them,
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: and uh maybe they'll do some shipping. Okay, it doesn't
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: look like they do, though, so I don't know. Anyway,
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: this is a place called Bakery nineteen oh eight. Okay,
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: it is an Asian bakery slash food kitchen in a Popka, Florida,
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: which is if you don't know where a Papka, Florida is,
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: at the very least you do know where Disney is,
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: and it's in Orlando, so that's as close as you're
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: gonna get. It's literally one exit from Disney, so it's
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: like right there. It's a great location, at least the
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: one that we went to. So you walk into this place,
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: it's a huge open space and the first thing you
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: see is like a bakery where you can grab a
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: tray and like your own set of tongs and you
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: can go ahead and you can pick out all your
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: pastries that you want. They have like, you know, like
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: sweet buns that are filled with like whipped cream and
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: like fresh fruit. They've got croissants, those square croissants that
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: are like stuffed with like a delicious dessert cream stuff
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: like that. But they've got also like you know, savory
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: meals like you can get like we got fried tofu
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: appetizer that was really good, nice pan fried vegetable dumplings
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: which were really really good. Some spring or vegetable rolls,
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: egg rolls that were really good. They've got soups so
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: you can make your own noodable. They've got all kinds
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: of stuff there that's pretty incredible. Milk teas, hot teas, coffee,
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: everything you could want. It was really good and really affordable,
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: which was really nice. So nice to get a chance
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: to check out this place. It is a delicious little
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: break from the world around us.
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: Awesome, all right, that sounds that sounds great. So thato
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: was the movie Mickey seventeen and this restaurant bakery place
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: called Bakery nineteen oh eight in Orlando, Florida. Love it awesome? Perfect. Well,
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: I think that's a good place for us to wrap
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: it up. As I said, thank you so much for listening.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed everything you heard. Consider supporting us
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: however you want to do that. I think I mentioned rating, review,
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: merch store, tell friends, subscribe, all that sort of thing.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: Anything I'm missing or that you'd like to add before
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: we say our goodbyes.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: No, I think that covers it all right.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: Catch us on our minis on Mondays, otherwise our full
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: length on Wednesdays. And this is Abraham and this is Shane.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: We're out.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, you've been listening to Why We Do What
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: We Do. You can learn more about this and other
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: episodes by going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: and we hope you have an awesome day.