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Introducing "Mistakes Happen" with Dr. Jen Brandt · My Veterinary Life

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Thinking about them, not just.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: Welcome to this week's episode of My Veterinary Life Podcast.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, doctor Annie Schamont, and my pronouns are
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: she her and our guest today on this special edition
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: of the podcast is doctor Jen Brandt, abma's Director of
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Well Being. Longtime listeners know doctor Brandt is a wealth
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: of knowledge on a variety of topics for the podcast,
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: and today she'll be kicking off a new series for
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: the show called Mistakes Happen, helping us build our foundational
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: understanding of mistakes and their psychological impact before we jump
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: into personal stories from your colleagues in the coming weeks.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: I am so excited to welcome doctor Brant to the show,
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: but before we do, I want to remind everyone that
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: My Veterinary Life Podcast is brought to you by care Credit.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: For more than thirty two years, care Credit has partnered
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: with the veterinary profession helping pets get the care they
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: need in every moment that matters. Flexible financing with the
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: care Credit, Health and Pet Care Credit Card, let's pet
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: owners spread out the cost and budget friendly monthly payments
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: the first time and for a lifetime. Being financially prepared
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: for whatever life brings gives everyone peace of mind. And
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: with that, welcome to the show, Doctor Brand.
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: Thank you very much.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: So excited to have you and to jump into this
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: important topic. But before we do, I want to provide
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  Speaker 2: a little bit of context to our listeners because well
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: being has been an organizational priority for ABMA for many
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: years and you've been closely involved with that work. So
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: can you share a little bit about your role and
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: how ABMA approaches well being across the profession.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Absolutely, I think about our work as being about the
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: art and science of peopling. At ABMA, we understand that
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: when we're looking at workplace wellbeing, we really have to
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: take a holistic, systemic view, and we see well being
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  Speaker 4: as a shared responsibility, so not just something that the
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: individual needs to do, but also you have the team function.
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: What are the procedures in place like what all contributes
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: to the workplace itself being a healthy environment? And related
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  Speaker 4: to today's topic, what is interesting to me is how
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  Speaker 4: revealing it can be about an organizational culture when we
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: examine how they handle mistakes. You know, what's the approach
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  Speaker 4: to addressing mistakes in the workplace?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly as you were explaining, that.
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  Speaker 2: That was the first thing that came to mind is
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  Speaker 2: mistakes are such a great example of a systemic occurrence
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  Speaker 2: to evaluate. I think we're going to dig into a
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  Speaker 2: lot of the different factors, both individual and systemic, in
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  Speaker 2: our conversation today, and so I'm really really looking forward
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  Speaker 2: to it. Before we do, I wanted to see if
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  Speaker 2: you would entertain us with a story of your own.
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  Speaker 1: Would you be willing to share a memorable mistake?
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  Speaker 4: Yes, my brain immediately thinks, like gosh, which one so
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  Speaker 4: like a lifetime of living is a lifetime of making
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  Speaker 4: mistakes and learning from them. But I think, like most people,
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  Speaker 4: the ones that tend to stick around that I remember
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: are when harm has been caused, you know, even if
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  Speaker 4: when it's unintentional. And so the example that's coming into
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  Speaker 4: my mind now dates back maybe thirty years, and I
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: still think about it. I worked primarily with survivors of
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  Speaker 4: crime and trauma, and so my role was in the
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: emergency room as part of a team. That team might
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: also include law enforcement. There may be a nurse examiner
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: who's doing a specific type of an exam to gather evidence.
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  Speaker 4: My role in that was to really focus on the
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  Speaker 4: needs of the survivor as well as make the work
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  Speaker 4: of the whole team easier, you know, to help be
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  Speaker 4: a buffer in a very traumatic situation. And in these situations,
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  Speaker 4: we often could not provide comfort. For like, we could
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: not offer the survivor in that moment a shower because
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: evidence needed to be collected. We couldn't offer a change
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  Speaker 4: of clothes. We couldn't even offer a drink of water.
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  Speaker 4: But one of the things that we could do was
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  Speaker 4: provide a stuffed animal of some kind, you know, and
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  Speaker 4: survivors may just hold on to that as kind of
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  Speaker 4: an anchor point. And for some reason, as I'm handing
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  Speaker 4: this bear over, I say, here he is. You know,
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  Speaker 4: he will help you feel safe. And I knew as
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  Speaker 4: the words were coming out that was not the thing
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  Speaker 4: to have done. And instantly the survivor had a strong
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  Speaker 4: reaction to that, as is appropriate, it's not a he,
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  Speaker 4: and it was like that was her final straw she'd
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  Speaker 4: held on, you know, was already facing another hour or
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  Speaker 4: two of questioning and examination.
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  Speaker 3: And then I reference a male.
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  Speaker 4: And in the moment, I immediately apologized and then focused
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  Speaker 4: on what I could do from there. You know, how
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  Speaker 4: do I do the best job I can what's the
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  Speaker 4: next best step I can take? But the reality is
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  Speaker 4: that derailed the process. I made everybody's job harder, like
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  Speaker 4: I did the exact opposite of what I was there
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  Speaker 4: to do. But the bigger lesson, the reason it still
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  Speaker 4: sticks with me and I'm grateful that it does, is,
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  Speaker 4: you know, deconstructing that then, like what on earth allowed
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  Speaker 4: me to say those words when I'm very mindful of
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  Speaker 4: the situations that I work in and very mindful that
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  Speaker 4: the people in front of me generally are not associating
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  Speaker 4: male with protection, right And I know this, I know
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  Speaker 4: this inside and out, and so thinking about what implicit
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  Speaker 4: bias I have And again this was thirty years ago,
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  Speaker 4: so we didn't even have that terminology, but like the
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  Speaker 4: programming in my brain that normalized that wording in a
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  Speaker 4: situation where that was not the appropriate thing to say,
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  Speaker 4: and realizing also the power of those words to cause
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  Speaker 4: harm even when that wasn't intended. And I can tell
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  Speaker 4: you that as a life lesson that I carry with
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  Speaker 4: me and I use today in our work when I
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  Speaker 4: focus on.
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  Speaker 3: The what we say really does matter.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing that story, and one
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  Speaker 1: of the things that I want to highlight with this
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  Speaker 1: series is we may not all have the.
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  Speaker 2: Opportunity to be in the room that you were in,
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  Speaker 2: but we can feel similar feelings from the ones that
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  Speaker 2: you were experiencing the moment those words came out, what
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  Speaker 2: you were feeling afterwards, how you manage the aftermath, so
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  Speaker 2: to speak. And it's a shared experience that we don't
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  Speaker 2: like to talk about, and so we're trying to overcome
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  Speaker 2: some of that stigma on the podcast, in this conversation
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  Speaker 2: today and in the upcoming conversations next couple of weeks.
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  Speaker 1: So let's jump.
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  Speaker 2: Into that a little bit, into picking apart mistakes. We
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  Speaker 2: know logically that everybody makes them.
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  Speaker 1: Why is it so difficult for us to talk about them?
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  Speaker 4: I love this question, and I think about our brain
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  Speaker 4: has different parts and different functions that all work together.
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  Speaker 4: But the logical part of our brain, the rational part
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  Speaker 4: of our brain, does know that mistakes happen. The emotional
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  Speaker 4: part of our brain that would view a mistake as
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  Speaker 4: a threat, however, is not so ready or capable to
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  Speaker 4: talk about a mistake, particularly when if there hasn't been
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  Speaker 4: any processing of it, it's still very viewed as a threat.
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  Speaker 4: You know, I might feel a sense of shame over it.
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  Speaker 4: I may worry that I will be judged, that I'll
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  Speaker 4: lose social capital, that my job is threatened, that people
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  Speaker 4: will just think I'm an idiot, you know, when when
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  Speaker 4: that is still very active in my brain, I am
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  Speaker 4: not going to be able to access logical brain. And
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: learning the difference about that and helping people get to
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  Speaker 4: that calmer, logical or rational stance is part of the
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  Speaker 4: important work of learning about mistakes.
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  Speaker 2: That's so fascinating and a great point to highlight that
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  Speaker 2: we're in different states in the process of making a mistake,
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  Speaker 2: and the before, during, and after and kind of respecting
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  Speaker 2: each state for what it is and knowing that some
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: strategies that might work in one state are not going
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  Speaker 2: to work in another state. And needing to get ourselves
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  Speaker 2: into a place that we are able to learn from
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  Speaker 2: these mistakes or able to respond to feedback is a
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  Speaker 2: critical part of our understanding. So let's break down the
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  Speaker 2: anatomy of mistake. Can you walk us through more of
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  Speaker 2: what is going on in our brains in and around
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  Speaker 2: that time?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think about this would be a very high level,
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  Speaker 4: you know, tour behind our brains. Certainly isn't going to
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  Speaker 4: capture all the neuroscience details going on, but at a
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  Speaker 4: high level one, it's really important to remember that our
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  Speaker 4: brain is wired for survival and it favors, you know,
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  Speaker 4: that over subtlety in nuance and accuracy. So our brain
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  Speaker 4: is wired to be very quick to respond to a
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  Speaker 4: threat or a perceived threat before it even knows it's
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  Speaker 4: an actual threat. And that process, that early process in
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  Speaker 4: our brain is happening before we even have any conscious
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  Speaker 4: awareness of it.
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  Speaker 3: So the first thing would be threat detection.
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  Speaker 4: You know, in this case, a mistake has been made,
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  Speaker 4: but again our brain may not even register it as that.
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  Speaker 4: Our brain will just somehow subtly know that something was
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  Speaker 4: supposed to happen and it didn't, or vice versa. When
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  Speaker 4: that happens, the brain will send a signal to our amidola,
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  Speaker 4: and that's in the emotional part of our brain. We
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  Speaker 4: think of the amiddola as the security guard, and it'll
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  Speaker 4: basically say, you know, danger, and then our system will
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  Speaker 4: get flooded with adrenaline because again we're not in the
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  Speaker 4: accurate processing rational stage. We are in survival mode. We
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  Speaker 4: got to get this body ready to run our fight
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  Speaker 4: before we are aware that this is happening. Then at
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  Speaker 4: some point there's that conscious awareness and we might register
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  Speaker 4: it as an uh or that stomach drop or notice
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  Speaker 4: now that our heart is raising again. Those physical effects
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  Speaker 4: are already in play, but now we may be able
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  Speaker 4: to put a voice to them, like, oh, I've made
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  Speaker 4: a mistake here, like this is not good. At that point,
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  Speaker 4: there's a little bit of a fork in the road
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  Speaker 4: for our brain. And again this is kind of high
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  Speaker 4: level looking at it, but if we come into these
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  Speaker 4: situations with the previous experience or the belief that mistakes
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  Speaker 4: are only a threat, only a danger to our survival,
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  Speaker 4: then our migdal is going to stay pretty fired up.
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  Speaker 4: We are not going to have access to that call.
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  Speaker 4: Let's see what we can learn from a part of
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  Speaker 4: our brain, and this might be where we see defensiveness
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  Speaker 4: and anger and blaming everybody else, you know, just anything
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  Speaker 4: to help take the heat off of me and make
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  Speaker 4: it feel a little less uncomfortable. If our brain comes
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  Speaker 4: to this event saying these things happen, We've had mistakes
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  Speaker 4: happen before and we've been okay, then that prefrontal cortex,
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  Speaker 4: the rational part of our brain's going to be able
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  Speaker 4: to show up sooner, and that's when we can engage
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: in problem solving and what's the next best step we
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  Speaker 4: can take versus I need to blame somebody else and
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: just get the heat off of me. And we think
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: about that in terms of coming in with a fixed
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  Speaker 4: mindset mistakes only mean I don't survive, or a growth
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  Speaker 4: mindset mistakes mean that I can learn. And then most
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: people have heard of the term neuroplasticity, that ability of
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: our brain to form new connections and so kind of
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  Speaker 4: a next part in this process again is if we've
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: stayed only in the emotional state, then we're going to
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: cement that and basically our brain will stay stagnant. Viewing
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  Speaker 4: mistakes are only a threat if we come in with
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  Speaker 4: that growth mindset and the prefrontal cortex, I say, the
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  Speaker 4: prefrontal cortex is showing up at the party now, then
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  Speaker 4: our brain holds onto that, retains that and forms new
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  Speaker 4: pathways and the process of learning what happened, What can
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  Speaker 4: we do differently in the future, What can we take
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: away from this? Those are all forming new pathways that
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: then enable us to handle the next situation even better.
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  Speaker 4: Our capabilities and our skills grow.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a helpful tour, a high level tour,
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  Speaker 2: as you said, of what's going on in our brains.
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  Speaker 2: And I think being able to break it down into
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: steps also helps make us feel not quite so isolated
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  Speaker 2: in the experience, like this is what we can expect when,
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: not if, when mistakes happen. These are the things that
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: are going to go on in our brain. And I
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: love that that last step, that fifth step is neuroplasticity,
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: because the neuroplasticity part means promise to me right, like
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: the mistake was not made in vain. We can change
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  Speaker 2: our wiring. So what does the research tell us about
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  Speaker 2: the value of mistakes?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, what's interesting about the value mistakes or what the
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  Speaker 4: science is telling us is it's not so much about
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  Speaker 4: the mistake. You know, in our brains we might say, oh,
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  Speaker 4: that's a you know, a whopper of a mistake, or
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: this one was just a little one. But the short
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: version of that is it's less about the mistake we
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: make or the type of mistake we make, and more
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: about how we respond to them. So when we think
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: about the value mistakes and how we respond to them,
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  Speaker 4: we talked about that neuroplasticity, but in addition, to the
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: brain development what we know can happen for mistakes. Again,
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: provided we can start then looking at them logically and rationally,
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: our ability to have resilience in these moments increased. You know, again,
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  Speaker 4: if I've been here and done this before and I
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: managed to get through it, I'm going to have some
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: tenacity and a capability of standing in kind of the
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: trenches if there's been some other type of mistake or
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: even just something unexpected happening. Also, it's associated with reduced
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: moral distress. If I'm not attaching the distress as a threat,
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  Speaker 4: and I'm not only associating mistake with guilt or other emotions.
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  Speaker 4: If I can look at that more neutrally, then I'm
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: also able to neutralize some of those really intense emotions
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: that can take over, like the feelings that we have
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: with moral distress. And related to both of those is
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: an increased adaptability. Again, how many times do we say
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: a patient doesn't read the textbook, So it's not even
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: that you've made a mistake, it's just this patient isn't
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: responding the way ninety nine other patients would.
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: If you only have this fixed way, this is the
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: only right way to do it.
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: I have to do it this way, and then the
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: patient is basically not cooperating.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: That doesn't give you a lot of room.
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: To maneuver in if it's like, Okay, the patient didn't
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: read the textbook, but I not only know option A,
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: I know option A through F. You are going to
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: bring so many other skills to the table to be
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: able to resolve that situation successfully. So there are a
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: large number of things that happen kind of in the aftermath,
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: and a lot of that is what do we choose
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: as our response.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Do we choose to say this.
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: Is only a terrible failure and only means I'm a
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: failure and I'll never amount to anything, Or is it
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: this happens and I'm going to learn everything I can
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  Speaker 4: from this in order to be able to perform better
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: in the future.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: That makes a lot of sense, And I do want
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: to tie that back to what we were saying at
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: the beginning about your brain is literally in different states
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: in different phases before, during, and after the mistake, and
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: there's different levels of receptivity in those different states. So
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: we know the goal is to get to the area
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: where learning can happen and we can have those super
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: valuable takeaways from those mistakes.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: But what advice do you have to help us get there?
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: If we find ourselves stuck in that amygdala driven emotional.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: State, how can we learn from our mistakes better?
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: So one of the things would be to come at
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: that question when our brains are not on fire, right,
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: when we're in a calmer situation. And really I think
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: of this as an exercise and self awareness kind of
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: interviewing yourself, Hey self, what have you been taught about
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: mistakes and people who make them? And this is, by
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: the way, be honest, right, it's a conversation with you,
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: so you don't need to decorate it for anybody else.
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: And so that's where you might if I'm being honest
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: with myself, I view mistakes as the worst thing ever
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: and the people who make.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: Them are idiots.
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: Right now, logically, you may come back with a different response,
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: but I often tell people stick with that initial response
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: because that's one of the things that we need to
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: contend with. And then part of that being able to
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: ask some additional questions. You know what, part of my
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: responses tend to be more associated with a growth mindset,
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: which ones are more fixed mindset without placing a judgment.
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: You're just you're looking at this as objectively as you can.
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: It might be you know, how have I typically responded
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: to a mistake when that happens, and kind of walking
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: through that process. I think another important question to ask
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: is how much of my identity is tied into quote
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: unquote being perfect? Is that where my sense my sole
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: sense of worth comes from outcomes that I don't necessarily control.
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: I might contribute to, but I don't control. But that's
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: where my full identity is formed, or is my identity
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: formed in effort or other types of things. And so
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: again it's not about judgment, it's just learning enough about
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: my brain so that I have an understanding of how
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: it's functioning, and then that gives me some ideas of
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: how I can introduce calming into my brain, what creates
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: an environment in my brain that allows me to be
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: more amenable or capable of learning in those moments.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: Once we have.
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: That environment for our brain which makes learning possible at all,
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: then we can bring some tangible or the rational skills
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: to the table. And so one thing would be what
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: I call a debrief or some type of structured reflection
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: on what happened and ideally in our work environments, we
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: are doing this as a team, and I will we'll
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: also say that is only possible when we have psychological safety.
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: So that is a precursor to being able to do
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: the debrief. But in the debrief, it is again labeling objectively,
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: not what happened, not pointing the finger of blame, Well,
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: so and so did X.
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: It's just this is what happened.
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: So it might have been wrong medication, are wrong dose administered,
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: and we had an adverse outcome, But also what worked
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: well in that process?
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: What could be even better?
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: Yet in how we respond or how we prevent asking
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: ourselves what did we learn as a team that we
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: can take forward, and also what would we do differently
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: or what will we do differently the next time, because
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: then we're setting up our brain to have a tangible plan.
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: If we only are focused on the mistake, we don't
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: get that. Also then as part of the team clarifying
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: the type of mistake. Again, in medical environments, it's very
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: easy to scapegoat the person that seems most central. That
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: person gave the wrong dose, and then that's where the
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: curiosity ends. But if we're looking back, it's oh, the
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: medication looks very much like a different medication that serves
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: a different purpose, and we store them on the same
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: shelf together. So it is more of a systemic challenge
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: than an individual challenge, and the same thing looking for
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: patterns versus the event itself. So what role do systems play?
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: Is it fatigue? Is it a communication breakdowns? Is that
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: lack of clarity? Is it being short staffed? Is it
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: storing the medications on the same shelves again, then, rather
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: than staying stuck in scapegoat mode, which doesn't help anybody
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: learn or grow or heal from the process, It's very
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: much about how we take this and move forward in
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: a healthy, better performing direction.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: That's great.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate the sort of step wise approach to
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: that to of get your mind in the right place,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: get your mind ready to receive. But then here are
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: some very practical things we can do, and we can
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: ask ourselves to walk us through the process of reflecting
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: and addressing any systemic considerations that need to be addressed
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: and have a plan for what that looks like moving forward.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: So always love to have some practical tips, and especially
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: in a topic that can be so challenging as mistakes.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: It's especially comforting to know that we can have a
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: plan for that. So as we wrap up our initial introduction,
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: brief anatomy lesson, and some examinations into the research of mistakes,
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: what particular advice might you have for anyone but students
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: in recent grads in particular, I'm thinking of who are
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: just terrified of making that first big mistake out in practice.
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: So this may sound strange, but I often say I'm
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: far more worried about the person who doesn't.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: Bring in any emotion to these situations.
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: That intensity of emotion we experience says I care, this
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: matters to me, Like those are all good qualities, So
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: it's really more about channeling it. If we're in panic mode,
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: then you know, our brain, our rational logical brain isn't there.
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: But if we can keep that stress in the right zone,
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: then there's a good stress that we call you stress.
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: It actually helps our performance.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: We think about the times that we're invested enough because
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: we feel some emotion that we're more locked in, We're
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: focused on what we're doing. We're paying attention to how
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: we're going about the process. So in terms of concrete
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: skills or tangible skills. Our brains don't do a don't
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: So I know that sounds like a lousy grammar. But
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: if I tell my brain, don't screw this up, it
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: has no idea what to do with that information.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: There's no roadmap.
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: It would be like programming into your GPS in your car,
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: don't get us lost. So with that information, with no
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: direction to go, I'm either going to sit still and
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: not move at all. I'll be frozen, or I'm going
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: to start moving the vehicle in some direction but not
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: knowing where to go. Odds are good that I may
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: very well get us lost. So naming what we actually
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: want and I think about that might be double check
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: the dose and the calculation of the medicine that I'm
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: administering or having somebody else.
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: That's a roadmap.
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: I have something to aim to or maintain controlled tension
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: to visualize the pedicle very different in our brain than
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: just hey, don't mess up. And it's a way to
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: channel that fear into something that is more constructive, also
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: really helpful to visualize the recovery. We tend to only
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: focus on the mistake, and then it's like our brain
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: gets locked in there and not all the right steps
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: that we took afterward. And the best analogy I have
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: for that is think about a cat and a cat's
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: writing reflex.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: Cats mess up, they slip, they step off the wrong branch,
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: but they have that built in writing reflex, and that's
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: in many ways what we are developing when we make mistakes,
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: learn from them, and grow from them. We have more
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: of these skills at the ready for when we encounter
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: another mistake or some unexpected situation. We have the ability
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: to have that writing reflex now and ps for us,
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: that only comes from having made mistakes. It doesn't come
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: from having been perfect. And then a last thought I
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: have by And there's many strategies. I'm sure many people
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: listening will have their own that have been really effective,
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: and please share those. Another one that works for me
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: is if I'm only focused on the label of I
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: have to be an expert or a perfect well, no
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: one's perfect, and I don't even really know what expert
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: means because you may know what there is to know today,
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: but guess what the science changes tomorrow. So I like
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: more labels like I'm I'm a curious learner. You know,
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: I'm an invested learner. I can adjust from mistakes. I'm
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: a data collector, I'm an experimenter, some identity that allows
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: for that place of growth and knowing that we survive
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: that process, we grow and we get better in that process.
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: That truly a career in medicine, a successful career in
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: medicine is really not going to be that you never
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: ever made a mistake, or that every patient read the
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: textbook or every colleague read the textbook on how you know,
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: we are supposed to interact. It is all about the
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: ability to course correct and learn moment to moment so
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: that we take that knowledge forward.
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: And that's the knowledge that not only we use, but
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: we mentor people with. You know, we teach the next
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: generation because of our learning experiences along the way.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Oh, such great advice to keep in mind.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: And I love the reframes, the intentional reframes that you're
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: mentioning there for us to hold on to and take
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: away from this conversation of the visual of the writing
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: reflex is particularly strong. And you can't just read a
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: textbook about the writing reflex in order to know how
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: to do it. It's earned through the experience. I think
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: that's a really valuable thing that you emphasized and just
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: thinking about preparing ourselves for the process that we know
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: it's going to be, but that each step of the
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: process has a purpose and that we will be better clinicians,
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: better veterinarians, better contributors.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: Through that process.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Even though nobody wants to make a mistake, they do happen,
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: But it's what we do after that that's most important.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: And we know these proven, research backed techniques.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: And tips to take away to make that experience as
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: positive as it can be. So thank you so much,
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: doctor Brandt Jen for coming on doing the research, sharing
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: what you know today, sharing your vulnerability please and your
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: own mistakes, and making this topic a little bit more
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: accessible for everyone.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: And thank you to each of you for joining us
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: on this episode of My Veterinary Life podcast. We love
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: sharing this journey with you. Remember, we want to hear
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: from you, so please be sure to leave us a
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: rating and review on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: listen to, and you can also email me at mvlpodcast
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: at ABMA dot org.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: Take care and we'll see you next time.