Latest / Conversations with Dad / Obligations and Possibility
Transcript
- Mbrownstein3485: Hey dad. Stanley Brownstein: Hey, how are you? Mbrownstein3485: So now we're back at it again. This is episode two. We can come up with the title later on. ⁓ Right now the podcast is entitled ⁓ Conversations with Dad. I know before there was talk about father and son. And I guess I'm having a conversation too, but I guess as the host of the podcast, my intention is less to hear my voice and more to hear yours. So hope that title works. Stanley Brownstein: question. Mbrownstein3485: What'd you say, Dad? Stanley Brownstein: I wish you luck with that. that's a good alternative to what I suggested. Either one is fine. However, turns out, whichever is more reflective of what actually happens. Mbrownstein3485: Cool. All right. good point. ⁓ and so speaking of reflecting on what happened, you know, last time we spoke, we talked about all the things that we might be interested in talking about and my hopes for this, this podcast. And I think in a nutshell, there's a range of lessons, but also just experiences that you've had that you, you know, you've noted in particular that you would have had interest in hearing more from your dad about some of those things. And so I'm certainly interested in hearing, learning some new things from you. And if not something new, maybe some added depth ⁓ that, you know, we can come back to at some other point. So one of the things that you brought up as, as part of what we could talk about was one of the lessons you learned from your dad. And, and I'd love to hear more about it. And more about your experience in actualizing that lesson. So my memory of the lesson, maybe you could reframe it or rephrase it. One of the lessons that you learned from your dad was about the importance of pursuing your passion and your interests. So I guess first, that top line speak to the lesson that we talked about last time? And if not, maybe you can say something different about it. Stanley Brownstein: I would say it does. I think what's interesting about it and we spoke about this last time, was I don't feel that my father ever explicitly gave me advice. which I feel I had done more than he had relative to just sharing with you perhaps even if it was general lessons of life, philosophy, ⁓ my view of things, but I don't feel that I directed you in a certain direction. I don't feel my father did that. I could be mistaken. I mean, it's been... It's not as if we remember a lot of things that might have happened when we were young. I do feel though that... He did set a very consistent way of behaving and a consistent idea of what's important by the way he lived and by the perhaps choices he made that I gleaned based upon ⁓ what was occurring at the time, especially when I was old enough. but it really was never specifically directed at myself relative to what I was doing at the time or do I feel it was directed at my brothers. I had gotten impressions of what he may have liked and disliked, but it wasn't expanded upon. But specifically to your question, it was by default that I really learned that lesson. Seeing that... I didn't feel that he should have had to work as hard and struggle as much as he did for something that he didn't like to do. And I saw myself falling into that same path. So that was lesson that I got from him, even though it wasn't explicitly stated. Mbrownstein3485: So when I hear you say that you learned it by default, you also mentioned that you saw how he lived and you said you saw him work so hard and yet struggle as much as he did. That must have had a significant impact on you. I'm wondering if you can say more about, how did you know he was working hard? How did you know he was struggling? Stanley Brownstein: So that's interesting too. It's, you know, lot of things seem to be in hindsight. I mean, when you're growing up, your environment is all you know, in a sense, like a fish in water. As you get older, you have a little bit more perspective. And then as you are in a similar situation, you recognize what your choices are, where you're going. and your perspective on your father becomes that much more meaningful. So, I mean, I helped him a lot growing up. When I was in junior high school, I would leave school and hop on the train subway, and head from Far Rockaway to Washington Heights to help him out. Often he worked, he... He didn't work on Saturday, but he worked on Sunday. So again, often he would, I'd have to go with him to help him out. So the whole kind of environment of what he was doing and what it took was very prescient for me because of my involvement. ⁓ I also know he had a lot of Mbrownstein3485: Mm-hmm. Stanley Brownstein: financial struggles. wasn't, he wasn't, his, he didn't look at his business really through a businessman's eyes. So he was satisfied with, in a sense, what he felt was fair, what he could get in a community that perhaps wasn't as thriving and receptive to him making a better income out of it. ⁓ It was also just hard work. And I felt that that left an impression on me, especially again when I was in a position to start making very real choices for myself. Mbrownstein3485: You know, we started the conversation, me being interested in knowing more about the choices you made afterwards. And, and now as you, as you shared, you going to the, cause Papa Joe was a furrier. And so that's, does that mean that he was taking the fur and making coats out of it? Like, what does that actually mean? Stanley Brownstein: Yes. Exactly. The way I look at it, he was a tailor, but with firsts. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Right, got it. So I mean, I didn't know that you went with him to the shop and you said that you went there to help, did you go with your other brothers too or is this something that you just did? Stanley Brownstein: So I couldn't really say what my other brother's involvement in the business was because my brother who is closest to me in age, who's older than me, is five years older than me. The other one's six, the other one's eight or nine. So I don't know what their involvement was. was kind of when I was of age, I was the only one. Mbrownstein3485: Gotcha. Stanley Brownstein: ⁓ Mbrownstein3485: Can you speak to, mean, again, there's some, you you use the word prescient and like impressions. And so when you're looking back on something that was 60 years ago, clearly there's only certain moments that stand out, but can you, are there any experience or moments working with Papa Joe that stand out to you in terms of like what you did and what it was like? Stanley Brownstein: Things that stand out was, so I was about. I was 13 years old 14 years old when I said it was junior high school things I said I was first of all it's dirty work there's all this far dander and and Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Mm-hmm. Stanley Brownstein: Dyes are used. And it was just, and he wasn't, didn't, my impression was he wasn't happy doing it. You know, there wasn't any joy in it. Like I know. that, you know, I think, I don't know if you could confirm this, but you might, I mean, what is your impression of my relationship to my career when I was pretty active in my heyday? You know, I felt that, you know, it was hard work, but I felt there were, you know, there were a lot of highs to it. Mbrownstein3485: Sure. Well, and you mentioned it before, you said he, it was really hard and, you know, hearing you say like, you know, we're dealing with like dead animal skin and fur. it's it's, it's, okay. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah, I don't know if he looked at it that way, to tell you the truth. mean, there was a different relationship to Farr at that time also. don't think, you know, I don't think a butcher looks at meat that way, you know, or else he wouldn't be able to do it. And it was really towards the very end of his career if even perhaps when he was totally finished with that work, that it was no longer, ⁓ Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Sure. Sure. Stanley Brownstein: it wasn't attractive to wear furs. I mean, was for more years than that, it was a norm. Mbrownstein3485: Sure. Stanley Brownstein: I mean, I remember when I was in college, when I was in Buffalo, I asked him to, and it was cold up there, I asked him to make a fur coat for me. I didn't think twice about wearing it or anything like that. Mbrownstein3485: Sure, Stanley Brownstein: But it was just hard in terms of, there was a lot to do. You're constantly, you know, sewing and measuring and, you know, having to sell and satisfy customers. It's retail work, but you're also making it. And he also had the burden of a large family to support, which was not always easy with the money he made doing that work. It was also, he was traveling from Far Rockaway. which is below Kennedy Airport all the way to Washington Heights every day. I mean, I know I took the train and that was like an hour and a half ride. Mbrownstein3485: Right, so kind of setting the stage for the choices that you ended up making. ⁓ You mentioned that, like looking at this in hindsight, ⁓ you didn't learn explicitly from your dad that work should be something different, but it sounded like you walked away thinking and feeling that you would like work. to be different. Stanley Brownstein: took a while. I I spent a number of years working with a disabled population. I mean, from the time I was 15, I was working in a residential treatment center. Mbrownstein3485: Yeah. Right. Stanley Brownstein: for that population. So I was waking children up. I would almost like a counselor type of position. I worked there during the year. I worked there during the summer. I went to a sleep away camp a couple of years with that population. Then when I got into speech therapy, I was working with that population. And that is so, I was even offered a job. was working up in Liberty, New York at a residential center in a sleepaway camp. one of the owners wanted me to transfer to college up there and work, direct their residential center. Mbrownstein3485: Hmm. Stanley Brownstein: But I realized it was just, it just wasn't, I was good at it in terms, I was appreciated obviously, because I was like 18, don't know, whatever, however old you are. And I might've been 17 or 18 at the time and I was just, and I was at college early. So I must've been good at it because it was an interesting environment. It was, they were all religious Jews and I was the least religious. So they kind of were prejudicial towards me. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Right. Stanley Brownstein: But this woman who was the owner appreciated what I did more than my lack of observation. But I realized I really, wasn't making me, I wasn't enjoying it. It was, in the beginning, it was a job that, you know, in any job I took on, I tried to be good at. think as I got older, I started realizing Mbrownstein3485: Right. Stanley Brownstein: what I liked and didn't like, independent of my sense of obligation, which is another thing I probably got from my father. You're obligated to do what you have to do, as long as it's ethical. Mbrownstein3485: Right. And so this idea of obligation, in what way did that inform your choice, you think, about working with a particular population? Stanley Brownstein: I don't think it did. I think it was just an opportunity. So I was living in ⁓ Far Rockaway. I was looking for a job and I heard about this residential treatment center, which was about a mile from my house. And I worked there in the summer as a counselor, CIT. And then I had an opportunity to work there during the school year because we had split session in high school. So I could like wake the kids up at seven o'clock, work there for a few hours, and then go to my classes in the afternoon. And, you know, it good money for me at the time. Like, I'm sure it was like $2.50 an hour. And that was just kind of my job. My habits sort of, you know, it's something I got used to doing. So I did it for a number of years until I again realized that this is not necessarily. what I wanted to do, which was interesting. My brother Elliot, who I turned on to it, I kind of brought him along with me to ⁓ the sleepaway camp. He stuck with it. Mbrownstein3485: I was gonna ask, it does sound familiar. ⁓ Yeah, that's interesting. So, maybe there was a, right. Stanley Brownstein: So wasn't an obligation. again, was just, I think obligation is almost foundational. Mbrownstein3485: Sure. Well, yeah. When I, when I think of obligation now as you're, you're talking about it, you know, your, there's a sense of duty. ⁓ there's an, an understanding that across the, across the way, there might be moments and days where, you know, you don't, you don't like it, you don't love it. There's some, you know, negative experiences and moments, but those, those moments and experiences are not enough to, you know, make you shirk your responsibility or do something else. So I guess I, actually before I ask a follow up question, does any of that resonate with you? Stanley Brownstein: Yes, and I think that's the environment I believe that my father gave me when I spoke about it some today, but I also spoke about it last time where I don't feel that there were explicit lessons, but I think that the foundation which allowed me to thrive to the extent that I have was provided by that example, both the good and the bad. Mbrownstein3485: Right, like passion can't, the passion can maybe turn into a better choice, but that's not necessarily going to sustain you for an entire career. So you can't give up passion alone. You also need obligation. You also need duty. ⁓ That's interesting. So maybe there was a moment, but probably there were a series of moments over the course of your late teens and early 20s where you started to, I don't know, imagine that it could be different. So I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to that. Stanley Brownstein: Sure. So that's a... I think in many ways that's a journey with many parts. I could talk about when I had my first real job and I was miserable and I knew I had to do something. But I could also talk about what I was involved with prior to that, where for whatever reason I became interested in philosophy and psychology and more... religious, spiritual types of things which preceded my having a job that I was bored out of my mind and realized that I wasn't happy doing. Mbrownstein3485: Gotcha. Well, I think the philosophical, spiritual thread we will pull at another time and also it will come up, I'm sure, as we go. But I also... Stanley Brownstein: So I'll talk about my first real job if you want and what prompted me to do something. Okay. Mbrownstein3485: Yeah, and it would be helpful to just, like chronologically. you were at this camp. Stanley Brownstein: So I was, so when I was, so with a degree in speech therapy, I was looking for a job as a speech therapist, which I probably wouldn't have been real happy with. But that was again, when I was more on automatic and not really taking control in a real sense of my life, I feel. But there were no jobs. There was a teacher strike at that time. Mbrownstein3485: That was interesting. Stanley Brownstein: And what was really interesting, so I was probably unemployed for a number of months. I was married. Mom was working as a PT and we didn't really spend much. didn't, and we were living relatively frugally. So it really, so my issue with a job is to get a job is not as much money as much as getting a job. So there were no jobs in speech therapy at the time. So I got involved with a program with the city of New York. might have been called, it was something promoted by Carter where federal funding allowed them to hire people who needed jobs. Mbrownstein3485: Thanks Stanley Brownstein: What was interesting, a master's in speech therapy with the board of Ed got you $9,000. I was able to get 11.5 and it didn't require any training, which was a big deal, the 11.5 versus nine at that time. Mbrownstein3485: interesting. Sure. Stanley Brownstein: So I was working as they were doing a special assignment where they were evaluating. different aspects of the waterfront. So my team, which I was a leader of, a leader of two other people, we were doing title searches of all the properties that were adjacent to the waterfront. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Stanley Brownstein: So I would go to the different city registrars. So I'd go to Staten Island, I'd go to the Bronx, I'd go to Brooklyn, I'd go to Queens, I'd go to Manhattan, and I would go back a few ownerships of city property and indicate who to follow, who has title of it. That was pretty boring, because I was in the field and I had some ability to be outside, not be in an office, I made the most of it. Then that program ended and I was hired as a permit clerk. So I'd be sitting in this office with these engineers and a clerk who were civil service all the way. I was in a department that had about 100 people in it. It was a very small department. And that I was getting really, I was coming home every night pretty miserable and angry, frustrated because it was just very boring. It was so boring. ⁓ Non-typical of me, I decided to be very sociable. I made an effort of knowing everyone in the department. I'd schmooze with them just to make my life more interesting there, which was nice. But it was just, my whole job was people would bring in plans, I'd stamp it, and that was it. In the heyday, that was a great position for Graf. Mbrownstein3485: Thank Stanley Brownstein: you know, when, when, when people really wanted to be first online and if they gave, gave someone the permit clerk a few bucks, he put them ahead on top of the pile. And it was also a lot of activity on the waterfront. So that, that was, ⁓ that was significant. You know, like the movie on the waterfront. But when I was there, it was, that was kind of slowing down significantly, but I was, I was really miserable. So. Mbrownstein3485: Mm. Yeah, yeah. Stanley Brownstein: I really, it was kind of, I better do something about it. And I was not really confident of ⁓ my ability to handle all of the sciences that went along with being a chiropractor. So it was was kind of a big decision because we were kind of settled where we were, so to speak. And if I was to go to chiropractic college, Wendy would, mom would have to quit her job. I would quit my job as crappy as it was. And we'd have to just leave town and go, you know, and give up everything for three years. So, because I was unsure, I always avoided sciences. ⁓ so I said to myself and to mom that, so what I'll do is while I'm working full time, I'll take these classes at night. And if I'm able to do it, that evidences my commitment and it would also, as it did, give me confidence to do it. So for a year in the summer, I was busting tail, really busting tail. So that kind of made it more interesting for me also. You know, wasn't as bored. was nice to have, I always felt it was nice to have a fire under your tail to sort of give your life that much more meaning. And that's what led to me. kind of You know, taking control, really. Mbrownstein3485: taking control while at the same time taking a huge ⁓ of faith ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ not necessarily a non-lesson you learned ⁓ ⁓ dad, but ⁓ sits in some way in tension with ⁓ idea of ⁓ and like having kind of to stick ⁓ something and see it through. ⁓ Stanley Brownstein: Yes. Mbrownstein3485: maybe we come back next week, we spend some time ⁓ just like hearing more about that conversation you had with mom and what it was like leading up to that conversation. And also probably begin to pull on that thread around like your, some of the spiritual work that helped you to pay ⁓ attention maybe in a different way to what your experience in your job was and if to what extent that led to You having the opportunity for to let that fire burn in that momentum build. how's that sound? Cool Stanley Brownstein: Sounds good, if it's of interest to you. Mbrownstein3485: Very interesting. Well, dad, thank you for making time. Stanley Brownstein: Appreciate it all, so I love you. Mbrownstein3485: Love you too. All right. Okay. Stanley Brownstein: Speak to you next week.