Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller: The NXIVM Sex Cult Scandal: Branded, Breaking Free and Blowing the Whistle (With Survivor Sarah Edmondson)

Transcript

Killer Thriller: The NXIVM Sex Cult Scandal: Branded, Breaking Free and Blowing the Whistle (With Survivor Sarah Edmondson) · Legally Brunette

0:06
Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.
0:07
Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan.
0:14
Speaker 3: Hey, everybody, Alisa Donovan here back with a new episode
0:17
Speaker 3: of Killer Thriller.
0:18
Speaker 1: This is our.
0:19
Speaker 3: Second part of my interview with Sarah Edmondson, where she
0:24
Speaker 3: talks about getting out of Nexium, the branding that they
0:28
Speaker 3: went through, and all of the work that she is
0:31
Speaker 3: doing today to help people escape cults and ideally never
0:36
Speaker 3: get involved with one. How much do you think actually
0:40
Speaker 3: being a mom in the midst of this helped you
0:44
Speaker 3: get out of it, because you must have thought, oh
0:47
Speaker 3: my gosh, wait a second.
0:49
Speaker 2: It definitely helped me having Troy and I know I'm
0:52
Speaker 2: jumping ahead a little bit in the timeline. I know, sorry,
0:54
Speaker 2: I'll put it my fault, my fault, paramedapaz, I'll book
0:59
Speaker 2: a back me too, Yay to talk about this topplements
1:05
Speaker 2: were taking later, but later, but that having him not
1:11
Speaker 2: only grounded me in reality and forced me to heal
1:14
Speaker 2: like so many things. I tell Troy that all the time,
1:16
Speaker 2: not to put too much pressure on him. He's eleven now,
1:18
Speaker 2: but he was he was, you know, almost three at
1:20
Speaker 2: the time, and he's such a such a gift. But
1:25
Speaker 2: I do think that the last two years before I left,
1:27
Speaker 2: I had been focusing on him in my in my marriage,
1:32
Speaker 2: and you know, we were traveling a lot, so we
1:35
Speaker 2: were also a bit stressed. But I think ultimately in
1:37
Speaker 2: the growth of the stripe path, which was the sort
1:39
Speaker 2: of backbone of an exiom, I was not growing. And
1:44
Speaker 2: the you know, they used to give me things to
1:47
Speaker 2: kind of keep me hooked. Like they promoted me to
1:49
Speaker 2: green sash at a time when I was like, I
1:52
Speaker 2: think I'd just given birth to Troy. And if anyone
1:55
Speaker 2: knows that for the Nexium nerds out there, I was
1:59
Speaker 2: an orange three stripe proctor. In other words, I had
2:02
Speaker 2: to get another stripe and then I would get my
2:04
Speaker 2: green sash, and that was taking so long. And the
2:08
Speaker 2: week they skipped me, they skipped a rank and promoted
2:11
Speaker 2: me to proctor or to senior proctor, which is green sash,
2:14
Speaker 2: which is like, was great, and I was really happy,
2:16
Speaker 2: but I was like, did I rear most? Like how
2:19
Speaker 2: did I like? I think they would. They just were
2:21
Speaker 2: trying to give me the thing that I was going for,
2:24
Speaker 2: so I'd stay in lide.
2:24
Speaker 3: So you stay right and keep recruiting people and keep
2:27
Speaker 3: doing recruiting.
2:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that had happened a few years earlier, but
2:31
Speaker 2: I hadn't got my first stripe on my sash, and
2:33
Speaker 2: I wasn't working through my issues and I was I
2:36
Speaker 2: had stagnated. So when Lauren invited me, it was the
2:40
Speaker 2: main selling point for me is that I'd get to
2:42
Speaker 2: spend time with Lauren and work with her and we
2:45
Speaker 2: get to check in daily. And it's called a master
2:48
Speaker 2: slave relationship, but that's not you know, it's not really
2:51
Speaker 2: a master's like that's how she's that's how she painted it.
2:54
Speaker 2: It was like, you know, we call it master slave,
2:57
Speaker 2: Like you're gonna like you're gonna, you know, text me
2:59
Speaker 2: as master and I'm in yes, but like right, which
3:04
Speaker 2: to anyone else listening would be like, that's so fucked up.
3:07
Speaker 3: Well, when you see the actual you know, the they share,
3:12
Speaker 3: the text messages and the vows, you can see them,
3:15
Speaker 3: it's like, yes, from the outside, you say this is
3:19
Speaker 3: ludicrous that these people would do this, But then you
3:22
Speaker 3: also think, oh, okay, you know it could be sort
3:25
Speaker 3: of like a joke and I think, you know, you
3:27
Speaker 3: say at one point, this is like a metaphor, This
3:29
Speaker 3: isn't a real master slave thing, but it really was
3:34
Speaker 3: because you are right, let's talk about the branding that
3:37
Speaker 3: everyone I yes.
3:40
Speaker 2: Please well read the news fish just to say one
3:43
Speaker 2: more thing about master Slave, because I think that one
3:45
Speaker 2: talking point that I've come to recently when people tell
3:48
Speaker 2: me about like, well, that's crazy, how but then they
3:51
Speaker 2: tell me how they did hazing and a sorority, Yes,
3:54
Speaker 2: and they did stuff, and you're like, well that's crazy.
3:57
Speaker 2: Well that's crazy too. And also it's the same thing.
3:59
Speaker 2: Like I lived in Vancouver, Lauren is in Albany. It's
4:04
Speaker 2: not like I'm in a cage and she's got me
4:06
Speaker 2: on a leash, do you know what I mean? Or
4:08
Speaker 2: dog collar, Like we're in separate places. So it is
4:10
Speaker 2: a metaphor, it's a game. It's an exercise in, you know,
4:15
Speaker 2: putting someone else above you and honoring them and doing
4:19
Speaker 2: something for them. And then they were gonna have people
4:21
Speaker 2: doing that for me eventually, which you know, as you know,
4:23
Speaker 2: because you followed, like didn't really pan out, which is great, yes,
4:27
Speaker 2: but that was that was really like the main reason
4:32
Speaker 2: is to be able to work with her, and the
4:34
Speaker 2: master Slave stuff was like just weird. But the branding
4:38
Speaker 2: was something that was pitched as as I understood it
4:42
Speaker 2: as like a mark on my body like a tattoo.
4:45
Speaker 2: Now in the trial, Lauren verified that everything I said
4:48
Speaker 2: was true, but she said that she did tell me
4:50
Speaker 2: I was going to get a brand, which she may have, but.
4:56
Speaker 3: I think you would never think I'm going to be
4:59
Speaker 3: branded like cattle. I think I can imagine where if
5:03
Speaker 3: you hear that word, it would sound like, oh, a
5:05
Speaker 3: brand of like a like a symbol, you know something.
5:09
Speaker 2: Yes, that's that's what I've come to realize because she
5:12
Speaker 2: may have used the word brand, But up until the
5:14
Speaker 2: night of the branding, I didn't know that humans could
5:17
Speaker 2: be branded. I thought that was something that just happened
5:19
Speaker 2: to cattle. She said. She said that she told me branding,
5:21
Speaker 2: but what I remember is a mark on my body
5:24
Speaker 2: like a tattoo. And then I was like, I don't
5:27
Speaker 2: want to get a tattoo. I never don't have any tattoos.
5:30
Speaker 2: I had a whole thing about that was my main
5:33
Speaker 2: sticking point, master slave fine.
5:35
Speaker 3: Tattooing, But doesn't that and forget you forgive me if
5:39
Speaker 3: I'm wrong. But that's also as a Jewish of the
5:41
Speaker 3: Jewish faith, that's pretty A lot of people have feelings
5:44
Speaker 3: about tattoos in general, right.
5:46
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I mean there were times when I was
5:48
Speaker 2: a teenager that I'd considered it, but ultimately that's one
5:52
Speaker 2: of the reasons. Yeah, so I was Jewish. I stalled
5:56
Speaker 2: for a while committing to DOS mostly because of that.
6:00
Speaker 2: So I just felt really uncomfortable. And one of the
6:03
Speaker 2: things that kind of tipped me over the edge to
6:05
Speaker 2: help me say yes. And this is so dumb, but
6:07
Speaker 2: because Lauren was staying at my house and we were
6:09
Speaker 2: doing an intensive together that week, but I ran into
6:13
Speaker 2: another proctor who was like lower rank than me and
6:16
Speaker 2: much less committed, and she like kind of winced and
6:21
Speaker 2: like tugged at because Lauren told me where the mark
6:24
Speaker 2: was going to be, like right here under my under
6:25
Speaker 2: your bikini line. And then the next day or maybe
6:28
Speaker 2: even that day, I saw this friend of mine kind
6:31
Speaker 2: of like oof, and I was like, are you okay?
6:33
Speaker 2: And she's like, oh yeah, it's just like a little cut,
6:36
Speaker 2: and she was like all sketchy about it. I was
6:38
Speaker 2: like she's in this thing, like oh wow.
6:42
Speaker 1: Right, And then you felt like, wait, I.
6:44
Speaker 3: Should be I'm I'm higher up, I should be doing this,
6:47
Speaker 3: or how if she can do it?
6:49
Speaker 1: I certainly should exactly so twisted.
6:53
Speaker 3: So so you fly to Alby then and knowing that
6:56
Speaker 3: this is what you're going to do is yeah.
7:00
Speaker 2: This recruited in January and in March I flew to
7:04
Speaker 2: meet my sisters and have my initiation ceremony is what
7:08
Speaker 2: they called it. So that was the that was the
7:10
Speaker 2: big plan.
7:12
Speaker 3: And this is for people who don't know. I can't
7:16
Speaker 3: express enough how disturbing this is. It is like a
7:21
Speaker 3: cauterizing iron right that is put on your body, and
7:26
Speaker 3: I mean, tell me about that. You all have to
7:28
Speaker 3: be naked. The subversive, the controlling aspects of this entire
7:34
Speaker 3: ceremony are so despicable to me, and they're so insidious
7:40
Speaker 3: and so twisted. Can you explain it with as much
7:45
Speaker 3: as that you're comfortable that you're being held down by
7:48
Speaker 3: other women who are then you're supposed to feel good
7:51
Speaker 3: about that somehow, and then are branded with this thing
7:55
Speaker 3: that a woman is also a female doctor is doing
7:59
Speaker 3: with no anesthetic. I am like, I just my heart
8:04
Speaker 3: breaks for everyone who went through that.
8:07
Speaker 2: Thank you. I I'd love to just leave it at that,
8:10
Speaker 2: because you summarize it so nicely, but it is I
8:13
Speaker 2: have to tell you. Sometimes I feel great, not great.
8:17
Speaker 2: I feel fine in walking through it. Other times I
8:21
Speaker 2: just like I don't have the capacity because it does
8:24
Speaker 2: like bring up stuff and it's sort of re traumatizing.
8:28
Speaker 2: So I'm going to kind of like talk about it loosely,
8:30
Speaker 2: but if I really, if I really think about it,
8:33
Speaker 2: I break down. So I have to just sort of
8:34
Speaker 2: like it's almost like I have to dissociate a little
8:36
Speaker 2: bit to talk about it. I understand.
8:39
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, so only what you feel you would
8:43
Speaker 1: like to say.
8:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess. I feel like when I talk about
8:45
Speaker 2: it that way, it just comes across as kind of
8:47
Speaker 2: callous and like like I'm a right flippant you know
8:50
Speaker 2: what I mean, And I don't want like everything you
8:53
Speaker 2: just said is really true. It's you know, it was
8:55
Speaker 2: designed to trauma bond us. It was designed to you know,
8:59
Speaker 2: make this come that would not only bond us, but
9:03
Speaker 2: like it was we were naked, like that was filmed
9:07
Speaker 2: that that was more collateral that was used against us,
9:11
Speaker 2: and so people were if they were like, once you're there,
9:15
Speaker 2: it's really hard to go back and yeah, this isn't
9:19
Speaker 2: This is actually how my book starts is like I'm on,
9:22
Speaker 2: I'm supposed to get on the table, or maybe I'm
9:24
Speaker 2: on the table. I don't remember, but like I I
9:26
Speaker 2: want I don't want to be there. I'm trying to
9:27
Speaker 2: figure out how to leave. I'm, you know, gas letting myself,
9:30
Speaker 2: going like Sarah, you said, you said you were gonna
9:32
Speaker 2: do this, You're gonna do it no matter what. And
9:34
Speaker 2: I'm also like, I don't I don't want this, like
9:37
Speaker 2: I don't want it, but I have to do it,
9:39
Speaker 2: and I had the What people don't understand is that
9:42
Speaker 2: in these situations with course of control, the collateral was
9:45
Speaker 2: used as a gun to my head, like that was
9:48
Speaker 2: going to be released and if I didn't follow my commitment,
9:52
Speaker 2: which is to do whatever my master told me. Now,
9:55
Speaker 2: when I agreed to be her slave, I said to
9:57
Speaker 2: her very specifically, what kind of things are you going
9:59
Speaker 2: to ask me to do that I have to agree to,
10:01
Speaker 2: like rob a bank that was the right to something.
10:03
Speaker 2: What I said, She just no, these are all going
10:06
Speaker 2: to be things for your growth. I'm only going to
10:08
Speaker 2: ask you to do things, and I'm only going to
10:09
Speaker 2: ask you to do things that I've done myself and
10:12
Speaker 2: that are good for you. And so the way that
10:14
Speaker 2: this was presented is I was going to do something
10:17
Speaker 2: difficult and painful and without anesthetic that if I got through,
10:22
Speaker 2: it would build my character and give me strength and
10:26
Speaker 2: experience the kind of pain that is the backbone of
10:30
Speaker 2: this loving master slave relationship. Now I know this sounds
10:34
Speaker 2: like total garbage, but like all of those words have
10:38
Speaker 2: years and years of indoctrination and so belief behind them. Right, Yes,
10:43
Speaker 2: trainings like hours and hours and hours of trainings you
10:47
Speaker 2: can't even imagine. So for me, you know, I was
10:52
Speaker 2: there for hours. I was there. My particular branding I
10:55
Speaker 2: think was somewhere between twenty and forty minutes. Some people
10:57
Speaker 2: took closer to an hour. It was a cauterizing pen
11:00
Speaker 2: that was sort of dragged along your skin over the
11:03
Speaker 2: over a stencil, so there was a stencil of the
11:05
Speaker 2: symbol on my body. And then every line took like,
11:09
Speaker 2: you know, five to ten seconds, and then they'd stop
11:12
Speaker 2: and there'd be some you know, some mumbo jumbo about
11:16
Speaker 2: commitment and honor and Guru and I don't know.
11:19
Speaker 3: Holy so like in the middle of it, then it's like,
11:22
Speaker 3: this is why you're doing this, like some spiritual uh
11:29
Speaker 3: readings or something like what was I don't even remember.
11:33
Speaker 2: I can't, Like, I'm so I disassociated so hard that
11:38
Speaker 2: I don't know. I know that, Like there were times
11:41
Speaker 2: when we were laughing. It was so uncomfortable. There were
11:44
Speaker 2: times when we were crying. There were times when I
11:47
Speaker 2: was like floating above my body. I mean it was
11:50
Speaker 2: it was very, very, very painful.
11:53
Speaker 1: And who is leading the process?
11:57
Speaker 2: We so Lauren, Lauren was leading the process, and there
12:00
Speaker 2: was a woman who is the who is an osteopath,
12:03
Speaker 2: who was doing the branding.
12:04
Speaker 1: She was also arrested right the Doctor Miam movie.
12:07
Speaker 2: She's not arrested, she lost her license. Okay, Yeah, and
12:14
Speaker 2: I at least I can't Yeah, I can't speak too
12:16
Speaker 2: much about that because there was a civil case. But
12:17
Speaker 2: needless to say, she still believes that I am in
12:21
Speaker 2: the wrong.
12:25
Speaker 1: Well, I've been to differ with her.
12:29
Speaker 2: Yeah. She says that I chose it and knew everything
12:31
Speaker 2: that was going to happen, and to which I say,
12:34
Speaker 2: even if I said, yeah, you know, master, would you
12:36
Speaker 2: brand me? It would be an honor as instructed, And
12:39
Speaker 2: even if I said okay to all these things, I
12:42
Speaker 2: did not agree to having Keith's initials on my body.
12:45
Speaker 2: That information was helped.
12:47
Speaker 1: For me, when did you realize that is what in
12:52
Speaker 1: fact the symbol was?
12:53
Speaker 2: That was months? That was I would say, I think
12:55
Speaker 2: it's like less than two months later. So between the
12:59
Speaker 2: time that the brand and that and that, a whole
13:02
Speaker 2: bunch of other stuff went went on like a dos
13:05
Speaker 2: amped up. Lauren asked for the deed to my house.
13:09
Speaker 2: She said that there was going to be new collateral
13:11
Speaker 2: required every month.
13:12
Speaker 1: And did that tell you?
13:14
Speaker 2: Was that?
13:14
Speaker 3: Like, wait, that's when you started to say I've got
13:17
Speaker 3: to get out of here.
13:18
Speaker 1: Yes, Like what was the thing that made you?
13:21
Speaker 3: What was really the thing that that that put you
13:23
Speaker 3: over the edge when you said this is I have
13:26
Speaker 3: to leave.
13:27
Speaker 1: This is bad.
13:28
Speaker 2: There were so many things and one of the one
13:30
Speaker 2: of the things that we talk about with our guests
13:32
Speaker 2: when they come on the podcast when they're leaving, it's
13:34
Speaker 2: never necessarily one thing. It's a whole bunch of little things, moments, interactions,
13:39
Speaker 2: thoughts that you put on a metaphorical shelf, and then
13:42
Speaker 2: often there is the last thing that causes the shelf
13:45
Speaker 2: to break. But it's not one thing. I mean, the
13:49
Speaker 2: moment when I was able to piece it all together
13:52
Speaker 2: and see the full picture was after a series of
13:55
Speaker 2: those moments, a couple months of and really twelve years
13:59
Speaker 2: of things that I couldn't reconcile, like why is Keith
14:02
Speaker 2: walking into this event with two women beside him? Oh?
14:04
Speaker 2: That must be his executive team. Oh, you know, like
14:08
Speaker 2: just all these all of these things that were like
14:10
Speaker 2: that's weird. And why is everybody late coming back from lunch?
14:14
Speaker 2: They must be busy. Oh. Never wouldn't think that they
14:16
Speaker 2: were all going to have threesomes while we were all
14:18
Speaker 2: doing training sessions, you know, like right found out later, Right,
14:23
Speaker 2: So all of these things came to a head when
14:27
Speaker 2: Mark Vacenta and I and I'm keep in mind Mark
14:29
Speaker 2: for Sentae is the filmmaker who brought me in.
14:31
Speaker 3: Yes, who had done this film called What the Bleep
14:33
Speaker 3: Do We know? That it was about quantum physics and
14:37
Speaker 3: it was quite successful. It was huge in theaters, huge documentary.
14:41
Speaker 2: Yeah. So he in those two months where things were
14:44
Speaker 2: like falling apart, his wife had left. Then. This is
14:47
Speaker 2: in the vow, not so much in my book, but
14:49
Speaker 2: in the vow she'd left.
14:51
Speaker 3: Bonnie who was a well known actress at the time
14:53
Speaker 3: as well, who had been in Star Wars, and a
14:55
Speaker 3: couple of very big projects.
14:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, and sidebar inside my side voice was like, yay, Bonnie,
15:01
Speaker 2: go back to la pursue acting. That's what you should
15:04
Speaker 2: be doing. That's what was going on for me internally.
15:08
Speaker 2: Externally I had to be like, hey, Bonnie, can you
15:10
Speaker 2: like sign this NDA Like It's just there was so
15:13
Speaker 2: much going on. I didn't know if Mark was going
15:16
Speaker 2: to leave. Mark was my business partner, we ran the
15:18
Speaker 2: Vancouver Center together. Everything's falling apart, and he finally tells
15:22
Speaker 2: me why he's leaving, which is that he had heard
15:25
Speaker 2: and is aware of some secret thing going on in
15:28
Speaker 2: Albany with all the women. So he knows about that.
15:33
Speaker 2: I didn't know that he knew. He shares that, And
15:36
Speaker 2: this is where my book kind of turns into a
15:37
Speaker 2: bit of a thriller, because it's like it moves very
15:40
Speaker 2: fast at this point because he knows about that, and
15:43
Speaker 2: he tells me that he's heard that women have had
15:45
Speaker 2: been giving assignments, which I knew about because I'd had assignments.
15:49
Speaker 2: But he said some of the women had assignments to
15:51
Speaker 2: have sex with Keith. So that is when I put
15:56
Speaker 2: everything together. I was like, Oh, that's what this is.
16:00
Speaker 2: And Lauren had told me right, Lauren ha told me
16:02
Speaker 2: there's nothing to do with Keith. Keith like, Keith doesn't
16:04
Speaker 2: know about it. No men are involved, and now it's like, oh,
16:07
Speaker 2: Keith's pulling the strings. Oh that's that's what it is.
16:11
Speaker 3: Oh.
16:12
Speaker 2: And another moment that had been on my shelf that
16:14
Speaker 2: I forgot to say. During the branding, Lauren asked me
16:17
Speaker 2: to film. We took turns filming.
16:19
Speaker 1: Filming the actual branding processing.
16:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, every woman was filmed with Oh god, and I
16:26
Speaker 2: was holding her phone and a text came through from
16:29
Speaker 2: Kaar that said how are they all doing with each other?
16:34
Speaker 2: And I didn't know if that was ka R, Keith,
16:37
Speaker 2: Alan Rainieri or k R. Karen, who was a friend
16:40
Speaker 2: of was another high ranking person. So I thought, oh,
16:46
Speaker 2: does Keith know about this?
16:48
Speaker 3: Oh my god, this is in the middle when all
16:51
Speaker 3: the branding it's happening.
16:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, or does Karen? Is Karen involved? I don't know.
16:57
Speaker 2: Put it on the show. Text come through and they
16:59
Speaker 2: go right it like it was gone and I'm not
17:01
Speaker 2: going to go look looking through it. So I was like, oh, okay,
17:04
Speaker 2: so Keith is now now I know, Okay, Well, Keith
17:06
Speaker 2: has seeing my naked body now I know that Keith,
17:09
Speaker 2: You know, Keith is fully aware of all like, oh fuck.
17:12
Speaker 2: So anyway, and Mark and I have this conversation. He
17:14
Speaker 2: tells me what he knows, I tell him what I know,
17:17
Speaker 2: and together we're like that. That was the beginning of
17:20
Speaker 2: the end. I mean that, I mean that was the end.
17:21
Speaker 2: That was We're out holy sor I'm in a Blackmle
17:25
Speaker 2: pyramid scheme right, involving sex slavery.
17:31
Speaker 3: Thank god you had one another though, right. It must
17:34
Speaker 3: have helped to have somebody that was like, I'm here too,
17:38
Speaker 3: We're gonna we're gonna get out of here, like we're
17:40
Speaker 3: going to somehow do this. It's very important that we
17:57
Speaker 3: get into what you're doing now and how you're helping people.
18:01
Speaker 3: But we need to talk about Alison mac and her
18:06
Speaker 3: position in all of this. I don't know if you
18:09
Speaker 3: are allowed to talk about her or if you aren't
18:11
Speaker 3: allowed to talk about her. I have my own personal feelings.
18:17
Speaker 1: She has just started.
18:19
Speaker 3: She went to prison for several years. She was convicted
18:23
Speaker 3: of racketeering and some sex trafficking and some other things
18:29
Speaker 3: that you might know the specifics of.
18:31
Speaker 2: I can't remember them.
18:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, but she was very much complicit in this, but
18:38
Speaker 3: also a victim as everyone was. So that's a very
18:42
Speaker 3: complicated position to be in. She spoke in on a
18:49
Speaker 3: podcast in the fall called Alison after Nexium, and then
18:53
Speaker 3: she just spoke with Michael Rosenbaum, one of her former
18:56
Speaker 3: castmates in Smallville one. I want to know if you
18:59
Speaker 3: have listen to those two. I want to know how
19:04
Speaker 3: you have got like seven denda questions.
19:07
Speaker 1: So so first, have you listened to them?
19:13
Speaker 2: Yeap, you have? Yes?
19:16
Speaker 1: Can you say how you feel about it? Your response?
19:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I feel very It's very complicated, like
19:23
Speaker 2: it's there's not like it's not a binary like yes
19:27
Speaker 2: or no or good or bad. It's like many feelings.
19:31
Speaker 2: Like I'm thrilled for her that she's found love with
19:35
Speaker 2: somebody who has had a similar background, Like what are
19:38
Speaker 2: the chances? I would love to say that, I'm it's
19:44
Speaker 2: a bit camp It's it is, I'm a bit I'm
19:46
Speaker 2: a bit hog tied because of the civil case.
19:49
Speaker 1: So oh okay, okay, but but.
19:52
Speaker 2: But the but the long and short of it is
19:53
Speaker 2: that it's just hard to It's just it's just hard
19:56
Speaker 2: to know how you know what goes on in people's heads.
20:00
Speaker 2: I wish her well, I hope that she can get
20:03
Speaker 2: her life back on track. I don't. I don't know
20:08
Speaker 2: how how much she fully understands the extent.
20:12
Speaker 3: Of That's how I feel and listening to it as
20:18
Speaker 3: an outsider, I'm like, this is not a healthy person.
20:21
Speaker 3: This is not a healthy person, and she doesn't know
20:23
Speaker 3: that she's not healthy. And it sounds very performative to me.
20:26
Speaker 3: It sounds like someone who is thinks they're far more
20:30
Speaker 3: educated and capable than they actually are. I do not
20:33
Speaker 3: think that she understands what went down here. She sounds
20:37
Speaker 3: like she's priming herself to start her own freaking cult.
20:40
Speaker 1: I don't like.
20:41
Speaker 3: I don't know how to say this enough, but it
20:44
Speaker 3: was alarming listening to her.
20:47
Speaker 1: I feel like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no,
20:50
Speaker 1: Why why are we allowing this to be This person
20:54
Speaker 1: is not okay? And I don't think that she.
20:57
Speaker 3: Is capable of truly understanding or being accountable. And I
21:03
Speaker 3: also get it's complicated. It's like, damned if you do
21:06
Speaker 3: damned if you don't like. It's a hard I do
21:09
Speaker 3: appreciate that, and I clearly don't know what it's like
21:12
Speaker 3: to be in that position. I'm just saying instinctually what
21:15
Speaker 3: I feel on my insides when I am hearing her speak.
21:20
Speaker 3: It is not healthy and I don't think she should
21:22
Speaker 3: be speaking publicly.
21:24
Speaker 1: That's my feeling.
21:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with you, and I think that sort of
21:30
Speaker 2: the key moment that kind of exposed that for me
21:32
Speaker 2: is I don't remember when she was talking about how
21:34
Speaker 2: people read victim impact statements about everything that she did
21:37
Speaker 2: and yes, Natalie was like, how was that? She's like, well,
21:40
Speaker 2: it's so hard, like my family had to hear that.
21:42
Speaker 2: I'm like, how about it was hard because you had
21:44
Speaker 2: to direct because you did it? Did it? Yeah? Yes?
21:48
Speaker 3: That was a yes, Like yeah, there's no culpability in
21:52
Speaker 3: that statement. There's no accountability. And I think that she
21:57
Speaker 3: is smart enough to know how to and the fact
22:01
Speaker 3: that she went back to college and expected to take
22:05
Speaker 3: psychology courses and gender studies and not have people be
22:10
Speaker 3: upset that she's in their class and she's.
22:13
Speaker 1: Going, hey, why don't you read this for your your paper?
22:17
Speaker 3: This might be helpful, Like it is grandiose, beyond description
22:23
Speaker 3: to me, and I hate you know, I feel conflicted
22:26
Speaker 3: in speaking about another woman in that way, but I
22:29
Speaker 3: really feel like that's dangerous. Whereas and again I'm not trying.
22:35
Speaker 3: I know I'm interviewing you and not her, and but
22:38
Speaker 3: I really I meant everything I said in the beginning
22:42
Speaker 3: that you there there is an integrity and a groundedness.
22:47
Speaker 1: And a and a.
22:49
Speaker 3: Humility about the way that you speak and the things
22:52
Speaker 3: that you say that feels very authentic to me, and
22:59
Speaker 3: feel like you are healing through this and understanding your
23:05
Speaker 3: position and the others and actually putting the pain into
23:09
Speaker 3: purpose in a.
23:10
Speaker 1: Real way and in not a performative way.
23:12
Speaker 3: Like it just feels very different when I hear you
23:16
Speaker 3: and when I read the things that you write and
23:18
Speaker 3: the things that you say, it feels different to me.
23:22
Speaker 2: I appreciate that. It's I mean, I try to be myself.
23:27
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm myself, and I know that in nexiom,
23:32
Speaker 2: being performative and authentic was something that Allison was ironically
23:36
Speaker 2: was working on. And you interesting, that's so that when
23:41
Speaker 2: I see when I see it, I'm like, that's like,
23:43
Speaker 2: she's still Alison still. And I also felt, truthfully that
23:46
Speaker 2: kind of Natalie got a bit caught up in that.
23:51
Speaker 1: Yes I did too, what I mean, I was like, wait,
23:53
Speaker 1: does I get out what's going on here?
23:54
Speaker 2: I was like, do if you feel for the Allison Show, Like,
23:58
Speaker 2: I don't.
23:58
Speaker 1: Know, this is it exactly?
24:00
Speaker 3: This is how I felt in listening to it. And
24:04
Speaker 3: I was very confused by that. And then like, oh,
24:10
Speaker 3: you're not going to talk to anyone else, Oh but
24:12
Speaker 3: I will. I'll talk to that my my castmate who
24:14
Speaker 3: was famous and on television. Oh okay, I'll talk to
24:17
Speaker 3: him too. I just like it gives me. It doesn't
24:21
Speaker 3: sit right with me.
24:23
Speaker 2: I did tell I did tell Michael because I'd been
24:25
Speaker 2: on his podcast too, and oh you had been yeah,
24:29
Speaker 2: like a long like when I first came out, and
24:30
Speaker 2: I told him that I thought I did, like for
24:33
Speaker 2: the for his podcast. I think he did what he like,
24:36
Speaker 2: he's not a cult specialist, like he's right, yes, right,
24:39
Speaker 2: like that's that was he was in his lane and.
24:41
Speaker 1: It was certainly, yes, it was.
24:43
Speaker 2: It was. It was totally fine. Had I been there,
24:47
Speaker 2: I would have been like when she he says, like,
24:49
Speaker 2: what were some of the red flags she missed an opportunity,
24:53
Speaker 2: like there were so many red flags that she experienced,
24:55
Speaker 2: you know, like that would be something to share. I mean,
24:58
Speaker 2: I think the podcast has even though it was hard
25:02
Speaker 2: for me to listen and for you and many others
25:04
Speaker 2: to listen to I had. I think it has value
25:06
Speaker 2: in showing kind of like how these things happen and
25:10
Speaker 2: what her journey was and how she went for me
25:12
Speaker 2: to zee. But I yeah, in terms of like her
25:14
Speaker 2: culpability and her awareness level and all that stuff like
25:19
Speaker 2: time shall tell right, right, you.
25:22
Speaker 1: Know, sometimes we need to just listen a little bit.
25:28
Speaker 2: Uh. I wish I could. I wish I could speak
25:31
Speaker 2: more freely.
25:32
Speaker 3: I know, I'm sure and I'm certainly not trying to
25:35
Speaker 3: like exploit you in any way, So we won't we can.
25:39
Speaker 1: I just had to. That's my own feeling.
25:44
Speaker 2: So have you listened to Nancy Salzman on Kate Casey? No?
25:48
Speaker 3: But I I did listen to her because again I
25:51
Speaker 3: just watched the VOW again and I was watching her
25:54
Speaker 3: episodes of like, no, tell me about that one?
25:58
Speaker 1: What do I need to listen to?
26:00
Speaker 2: Casey does an episode with Nancy and she's I mean
26:05
Speaker 2: that was very difficult to listen to because there's zero
26:07
Speaker 2: responsibility taken and talks about how, you know, my company
26:13
Speaker 2: had no problems in it. My company was helping people.
26:17
Speaker 2: DOS was where the problems were. My company was perfect
26:20
Speaker 2: and it was a lot of like, I are you
26:21
Speaker 2: kidding me?
26:23
Speaker 3: That's a whole other episode for you and I to
26:27
Speaker 3: talk about, because I just like from top to bottom
26:31
Speaker 3: there Again, I also want to say, you know, we're
26:33
Speaker 3: all a product of our experiences and it's what we
26:36
Speaker 3: choose to do with that. And I can appreciate that
26:41
Speaker 3: Nancy talks about her her growing up and the problems
26:45
Speaker 3: that she had as a child and with her mom,
26:48
Speaker 3: Like I get that we all, you know, those things
26:51
Speaker 3: imprint us and then we you know, go through life.
26:54
Speaker 3: So but we have to be accountable at a certain point,
26:58
Speaker 3: like we all have baggage, we all all have things
27:00
Speaker 3: that we've.
27:00
Speaker 1: Been through, and then you know, we can't.
27:04
Speaker 3: You have to say she is one hundred percent culpable,
27:09
Speaker 3: but yes she's also a victim of his Like again,
27:11
Speaker 3: very complicated.
27:12
Speaker 2: But yeah, both Alison and Nancy would not have done
27:16
Speaker 2: any of that had it not been for Keith Hernary. Right,
27:19
Speaker 2: So that's that's clear, right, And and yes, it's very
27:22
Speaker 2: interesting to look at all the things that shape you
27:24
Speaker 2: in your childhood and what you know makes you, Like
27:27
Speaker 2: if you're an actress from age three and you you
27:30
Speaker 2: know your dad's an opera singing narcissist or whatever, whenever
27:33
Speaker 2: her thing is like, yeah, that's going to shape her
27:35
Speaker 2: in a certain direction. But both of those people actively
27:39
Speaker 2: lied to people like me right and said that like
27:42
Speaker 2: Keith Rnary was a celibate renuncia, Like, right, that's a
27:46
Speaker 2: flat out my face, that is a blatant lie. Right.
27:51
Speaker 2: I made a lot of mistakes. I missed a lot
27:52
Speaker 2: of red flags. I got caught up in stuff I love.
27:55
Speaker 2: There's so many things that were I can own. I
27:58
Speaker 2: never lied to anybody. I never said, you know, yeah,
28:02
Speaker 2: Keith is so great, he's a celebrate, and knew that
28:05
Speaker 2: he was looking everybody like that's something I know, right
28:08
Speaker 2: for certain, anyway, I'd listen to it just for your
28:11
Speaker 2: own if you want to, I will riled up, Yeah.
28:13
Speaker 1: I definitely will.
28:14
Speaker 3: All Right, before we close and talk about your new
28:19
Speaker 3: book that you have coming out and all the great
28:23
Speaker 3: work that you are doing, we should say that Keith
28:26
Speaker 3: is in prison for like a bazillion years, it's one
28:30
Speaker 3: hundred and twenty years plus life or something like that,
28:33
Speaker 3: like he's not getting out, which is great. And another
28:40
Speaker 3: quote like these walks that he would go on with
28:43
Speaker 3: people again like the disrupting people's sleep and making them
28:48
Speaker 3: get up in the middle of the night and go
28:49
Speaker 3: on these.
28:49
Speaker 1: Walks with him.
28:50
Speaker 3: But in particular, he's talking to Bonnie and says something
28:54
Speaker 3: that she's left the cult, right or she's trying to leave,
28:58
Speaker 3: and he's like, you know, you'll.
29:00
Speaker 1: He says something to the effect of, you'll pass out.
29:02
Speaker 3: But when you're serving humanity and your inner self, you
29:06
Speaker 3: know you're blowing it. From a spiritual perspective, feeling enslaved
29:10
Speaker 3: is a good you know, it's a good first step.
29:13
Speaker 3: What It's just like wow, And thankfully she was like,
29:18
Speaker 3: I think he's still gonna go. I think I'm still
29:20
Speaker 3: gonna exit. So I do you do you ever think
29:26
Speaker 3: about Keith? And if you do, what actually more than that,
29:32
Speaker 3: do you think there was a moment did you have
29:35
Speaker 3: a moment when you were like, oh, he's left my.
29:42
Speaker 1: Psyche, like he's left my.
29:46
Speaker 2: Brain?
29:46
Speaker 1: Or do you think about him at all? Still?
29:51
Speaker 2: I don't really think about him, to be honest. Every
29:54
Speaker 2: now and then, either Nippy or I will be like,
29:56
Speaker 2: what do you think Keith's doing right now? And I'll
29:58
Speaker 2: be like, He'll be sitting He's sitting in his dorm
30:01
Speaker 2: and he's looking up at his mattress and he's looking
30:03
Speaker 2: at like the metal underneath the mattress, and he's counting
30:06
Speaker 2: it and looking for patterns and figuring out how to
30:08
Speaker 2: get out of jail. That's what he's doing. Or apparently
30:12
Speaker 2: he's been like running a little group like he's been.
30:14
Speaker 2: You know, he's he's always up to Shenanigan's. He's always
30:17
Speaker 2: getting in trouble. So I don't want to think about
30:19
Speaker 2: him that much. I actually like have this kind of
30:22
Speaker 2: sick fantasy of going to visit him in prison and
30:25
Speaker 2: just like looking at him, because I never got to
30:26
Speaker 2: go to court and see.
30:28
Speaker 1: Him because I was like, oh, I get that. I
30:30
Speaker 1: get that in a.
30:32
Speaker 2: Movie way, like it as if my life is a movie.
30:34
Speaker 2: I should do that, but but I probably never will.
30:39
Speaker 2: But yeah, you know I don't. He doesn't take out
30:41
Speaker 2: much space in my head. Yeah, I'm done with him.
30:44
Speaker 1: Good.
30:59
Speaker 3: Let's talk about you said there's no playbook for leaving
31:01
Speaker 3: a cult. Can you talk about some of the warning
31:03
Speaker 3: signs that people should look out for and what advice
31:07
Speaker 3: you would give to people listening who could be in
31:10
Speaker 3: one right now?
31:12
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, ultimately what I've learned since leaving, is
31:16
Speaker 2: that so many people are either in a cult or
31:19
Speaker 2: something cult tea, that something's not necessarily a full blown
31:22
Speaker 2: cult in the traditional sense, but it's just toxic, you know,
31:26
Speaker 2: or problematic, and it could be something as benign as
31:28
Speaker 2: orange theory or something where like or CrossFit where it's like,
31:33
Speaker 2: obviously that's not a cult, but it's called tea. And
31:37
Speaker 2: I've now since like eight years out, like let's don't
31:41
Speaker 2: even use the word cult because people get all up
31:42
Speaker 2: in arms or it's overused, or you know, people don't
31:46
Speaker 2: understand or they're like, well, my group doesn't have a
31:48
Speaker 2: charismatic leader, therefore it's not a cult like that, it
31:50
Speaker 2: doesn't have to have all the things, it has to
31:53
Speaker 2: have some of the things. And again, let's just forget
31:57
Speaker 2: the word cult. Is this healthy for you? So, like
32:00
Speaker 2: with budges, back to the CrossFit example, you know, it's
32:03
Speaker 2: all or nothing, like you, if you don't go, you
32:06
Speaker 2: get shamed, and like people change their name nmes to
32:09
Speaker 2: have special CrossFit names. Like all of those things are
32:12
Speaker 2: red flags of like I don't want to do that,
32:15
Speaker 2: Like I don't want to I don't I don't want
32:17
Speaker 2: to push myself to injury and if I don't, then
32:19
Speaker 2: like I'm a pussy, Like that's right, right, Like that's
32:23
Speaker 2: that's what. That's what, not all of them. So I've
32:25
Speaker 2: heard that some people do that like that forget cult,
32:29
Speaker 2: like that's just not something that how I want to live.
32:30
Speaker 2: That's how you want to live. You know, all the
32:32
Speaker 2: power to you. But a lot of groups know that
32:37
Speaker 2: they're not going to Like you said, you don't join
32:39
Speaker 2: a college on purpose. They have to provide value. People
32:42
Speaker 2: join good things, right right, They join something and it
32:45
Speaker 2: feels great at first. Personal development, a church, a wine club,
32:51
Speaker 2: a yoga studio, all of these things are have value
32:54
Speaker 2: and are are great. So like what are the red flags? Well,
32:58
Speaker 2: starts starts benign, like you know, more intense commitment or
33:02
Speaker 2: more money or asking for to like to make the
33:05
Speaker 2: thing become more your life, to be more of a
33:07
Speaker 2: commitment towards a particular thing. Other red flags are like,
33:13
Speaker 2: you know, let's say you get involved and then like
33:15
Speaker 2: you feel like you can't question or if you're shamed
33:17
Speaker 2: if your question, or if people leave and everyone talks
33:19
Speaker 2: shit about them, or you can't talk to them as
33:21
Speaker 2: people love like shunning is involved. I mean there's there's
33:26
Speaker 2: there's so many things that I feel like you can
33:29
Speaker 2: isolate them, and even with nexim like people would say
33:33
Speaker 2: when I was in it, like yeah, I think that
33:35
Speaker 2: might be a cult. And never had no one ever
33:37
Speaker 2: did a proper intervention with me, but they said that
33:39
Speaker 2: I was in a cult. It's like, yeah, it's a cult.
33:41
Speaker 2: It's a group of people, and we're a group of
33:43
Speaker 2: like highly successful, happy people. I don't care if you
33:47
Speaker 2: think I'm in a cult because I love my cult.
33:49
Speaker 2: And that's what a lot of a lot of people
33:52
Speaker 2: are trained to say. They don't see what's bad about it.
33:56
Speaker 2: So the bad thing is always some kind of bait
33:59
Speaker 2: and sweat which you think you're doing personal development, which
34:02
Speaker 2: is what I was doing for a long time. But
34:04
Speaker 2: then when you're fully committed, you'll become a spiritual wife
34:08
Speaker 2: for the leader in Albany, Like that's really right, but
34:12
Speaker 2: that it's actually the endgame, the endgame. But for a
34:15
Speaker 2: lot of people that wasn't the end game. They were
34:18
Speaker 2: just taking trainings all around North America and for them,
34:21
Speaker 2: they weren't in a sex cult. They were in a
34:23
Speaker 2: personal development program. To this day, they're like, oh, like
34:27
Speaker 2: I don't want to be associated with that thing because
34:30
Speaker 2: they just took trainings and were fine. So for many people,
34:34
Speaker 2: the endgame is just to have recruits that are bringing
34:36
Speaker 2: in money. So a lot of people are involved in
34:38
Speaker 2: things on the profhery and they think it's fine. And
34:41
Speaker 2: I'm going to say something controversial because I know a
34:43
Speaker 2: lot of people in LA do transcendental meditation for example,
34:46
Speaker 2: when they have a mantra or like you said, they
34:49
Speaker 2: do the forum and they take trainings, you're probably fine.
34:52
Speaker 2: But in the inner circle of these organizations, those are
34:56
Speaker 2: legit cults in my opinion, right, so.
35:00
Speaker 3: Well, because there's a certain thing you have to do, right,
35:03
Speaker 3: like you have to give a certain amount of money
35:05
Speaker 3: and you have to do it x amount of time
35:08
Speaker 3: a day for TM for example.
35:12
Speaker 2: But yeah, if you're gonna meditate and have a mantra,
35:15
Speaker 2: there's nothing there's that's not a problem. It's when you
35:17
Speaker 2: like go to the training session center and you become
35:21
Speaker 2: a teacher and you start dedicating your time and volunteering
35:24
Speaker 2: because you're doing something for service. And next thing, you know,
35:27
Speaker 2: like you're cutting off your family because they don't really
35:29
Speaker 2: get it, and then you're asked to like you know,
35:33
Speaker 2: move and be more like. So, colts work in very
35:36
Speaker 2: specific ways. They draw you in with something good. They
35:38
Speaker 2: have to dangle a hook, something of value. Then they
35:41
Speaker 2: isolate you from the rest of the world, and then
35:43
Speaker 2: they create a dependency. I mean it's not even like linear.
35:45
Speaker 2: These are all sort of happening at the same time.
35:47
Speaker 2: Like the love bombing is happening while you're getting isolated
35:50
Speaker 2: and more dependent in creating a system that you have
35:53
Speaker 2: to commit to and everything else lily gets cut off.
35:56
Speaker 2: And the more that people do that, the harder is
35:58
Speaker 2: to to go like, oh shit, I'm a mistake. I
36:01
Speaker 2: better like reach out for help because also we tend
36:04
Speaker 2: to burn bridges for people who don't support us and
36:06
Speaker 2: get it. And you mean, my thought right now to
36:09
Speaker 2: anybody is like, if you're questioning if what you're involved
36:13
Speaker 2: in is a cult, it it probably is or is
36:18
Speaker 2: just something that like check in with yourself, what is
36:21
Speaker 2: it about it that I don't like? And if you're
36:23
Speaker 2: not sure, don't go to the leadership. Don't talk to
36:29
Speaker 2: people who are still really dedicated, because they'll bring you
36:31
Speaker 2: back in. Find people who left. Go on Reddit, see
36:35
Speaker 2: if there's a documentary made about it. Google is so
36:38
Speaker 2: and so is the form of cult is transdentiment meditation?
36:41
Speaker 2: A cult is next day of a cult? Like, there's
36:43
Speaker 2: going to be a lot of information and it's that
36:47
Speaker 2: I wish I had researched before, you know, before I
36:50
Speaker 2: do my five day.
36:51
Speaker 3: What's the hardest thing for you personally to sit with now?
36:58
Speaker 3: Just knowing that the people that you brought in you
37:01
Speaker 3: still feel like or with the entire thing, Like, what's
37:04
Speaker 3: the hardest thing for you to sit with?
37:07
Speaker 1: Or isn't there is there nothing?
37:10
Speaker 2: I think the hardest thing is for the people that
37:14
Speaker 2: remain that The thing that takes up most of my
37:17
Speaker 2: space in my head is like some of the people
37:20
Speaker 2: that remain loyal, even if I didn't like directly recruit them,
37:23
Speaker 2: are there because of people that I recruited. So like
37:26
Speaker 2: in my tree in they called it the organization by pyramid.
37:29
Speaker 2: You know, I recruited people who recruited people who are
37:32
Speaker 2: still loyal and are still dedicating their life for us.
37:34
Speaker 3: There are still people dedicated to him and to this
37:38
Speaker 3: are people.
37:39
Speaker 1: Still outside there.
37:40
Speaker 3: I know there's a point where women were dancing outside
37:42
Speaker 3: of it. It's like very Charles Manson also, I know,
37:45
Speaker 3: and the family for the record.
37:47
Speaker 1: But is that still happening? Are people like dancing outside
37:50
Speaker 1: of that.
37:50
Speaker 2: They're not dancing. They have a group that gets together
37:54
Speaker 2: and they zoom and they and they sometimes they post stuff.
37:57
Speaker 2: They haven't been very active since Nikki Klein left and
37:59
Speaker 2: NICKI was the main person that I was thinking about
38:02
Speaker 2: and praying. I don't I'm not even religious, like just
38:06
Speaker 2: and having reoccurring dreams. She's out, she's woken up, but
38:10
Speaker 2: she's not. We can't talk yet because of the civil case. Okay,
38:14
Speaker 2: but there were and she was part of that dancing group. Yeah,
38:18
Speaker 2: so there there are women there who are still in
38:21
Speaker 2: and I just like I I I would love for
38:26
Speaker 2: them to wake up and get on with their lives.
38:28
Speaker 2: And there's also a lot of people who I know
38:30
Speaker 2: left who were like at my wedding and I was
38:34
Speaker 2: at their wedding and we have not spoken and I
38:37
Speaker 2: don't even know how to reach them, like people that
38:39
Speaker 2: kind of disappeared. I love to have closure, you know,
38:42
Speaker 2: I'd love to, you know, even I don't need like
38:46
Speaker 2: a I don't need like a gratitude call, like hey,
38:48
Speaker 2: thanks for freeing me from the you know, from this
38:51
Speaker 2: slavery or.
38:52
Speaker 3: Whatever, like here's a here's a Starbucks gift card.
38:55
Speaker 2: Thanks for I will take me, but no, I just
38:59
Speaker 2: I just would like some clothes. With a lot of people,
39:01
Speaker 2: that eats me up. I feel like I've made amends
39:05
Speaker 2: as far as I know with anyone that like I
39:07
Speaker 2: brought in in terms of helping them get on their
39:09
Speaker 2: feet or get legal support or therapy. If I miss
39:12
Speaker 2: somebody and they're listening to this, please reach out, Like
39:15
Speaker 2: I don't know what, I don't know, but I feel
39:19
Speaker 2: like I've cleaned up my side of the street in
39:22
Speaker 2: that way. Yeah, but I mean it eats me up. Also,
39:27
Speaker 2: separate from nextem that there's just so many things out
39:29
Speaker 2: there and people don't know, and it's so easy to
39:32
Speaker 2: get hooked, to get wrapped, so easy.
39:35
Speaker 3: So this brings us to our book. You have a
39:37
Speaker 3: new book coming out very soon. Yes, it's called A
39:40
Speaker 3: little Bit Culty. Also the name of your podcast, which
39:44
Speaker 3: is a phenomenal name altogether, let's just say so the
39:48
Speaker 3: book is called A Little Bit Cult Navigating Cults, control
39:51
Speaker 3: and Coercion.
39:53
Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about that and when
39:54
Speaker 1: it wi will be out.
39:56
Speaker 2: I'm so so you're like the first interview i've kind
39:59
Speaker 2: of air stray, like kind of like drop little hands
40:01
Speaker 2: about it. Yeah, it's going to be available actually on
40:07
Speaker 2: Amazon very shortly, and we don't have it. It depends
40:09
Speaker 2: on a couple of things because I'm self publishing this one.
40:12
Speaker 2: I traditionally published Scarred, but I'm doing this myself, which
40:15
Speaker 2: means I don't have to wait six months for it
40:17
Speaker 2: to be out, Like it'll be available on Amazon probably
40:20
Speaker 2: by mid February, and then Nippy and I will be like,
40:23
Speaker 2: all the pre orders are going to get an autographed,
40:26
Speaker 2: an autographed the signature from us and some ALBC merch.
40:29
Speaker 2: But we're just like, we're just so excited because we've inadvertently,
40:36
Speaker 2: like our podcast came out of covid and the VOW
40:39
Speaker 2: and it was not something we planned as like our
40:42
Speaker 2: career move, but it just sort of it grew and
40:44
Speaker 2: it was organic and it was beautiful, and we talked
40:47
Speaker 2: to all these people who had endured similar things to us,
40:52
Speaker 2: and it was cathartic and we we learned. And then
40:55
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, we had all this information and
40:57
Speaker 2: people were coming to us like, oh, oh have a
41:00
Speaker 2: and what do I do? And I was sending people resources.
41:02
Speaker 2: I have a resource list also on my website amazing,
41:05
Speaker 2: which is yeah, been great to to send to people
41:08
Speaker 2: and be like, Okay, there's this website for therapy, and
41:09
Speaker 2: there's this website for legal, and there's this that's there.
41:13
Speaker 2: But my knowledge base grew and I realized if I
41:17
Speaker 2: had this information before, I wouldn't have joined. If I
41:20
Speaker 2: had it during, I could have gotten out. And if
41:22
Speaker 2: I had it after, I would have had a playbook
41:26
Speaker 2: for leaving. I would have had that. And so that's
41:29
Speaker 2: what we tried to do is put it.
41:30
Speaker 3: All yeah, because I think some people don't understand how
41:34
Speaker 3: hard it is to like the repercussions of getting out,
41:39
Speaker 3: even the financial ones getting sued like next SIAM is
41:43
Speaker 3: huge on suing people, which takes a ton of resources
41:47
Speaker 3: to combat. When you have Claire bronfin her bank account
41:52
Speaker 3: financing the entire organization, it's just endless funds and very
41:58
Speaker 3: few people have that, if any, that are involved. So
42:03
Speaker 3: there were just so aside from even the emotional difficulty
42:06
Speaker 3: and that sort of separation, it's actually financial and quite
42:10
Speaker 3: physical and literal often.
42:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and nobody there's there's there are books on cults, obviously,
42:16
Speaker 2: there's tons, there's tons of memoirs, and there are some
42:19
Speaker 2: books on recovery and healing, but there's no book on
42:22
Speaker 2: how to navigate the media, you know, how to be
42:25
Speaker 2: a whistleblower, how to know the difference between a podcast
42:29
Speaker 2: versus Doctor Oz versus you know, being in a doing
42:35
Speaker 2: Fox News, Like there's it's a it's a it's a show.
42:39
Speaker 2: I had to learn fast. I had a great team,
42:42
Speaker 2: like I want to put out the information so I
42:44
Speaker 2: can give it to people, and that that chapter might
42:48
Speaker 2: not be relevant to you, right right, But but the
42:52
Speaker 2: chapters may be on like what to say to a
42:54
Speaker 2: friend who's involved in something a little bit culty or
42:57
Speaker 2: you know, just out of curiosity. All the different red
43:00
Speaker 2: flags and all the different tactics, and we drove every tactic.
43:03
Speaker 2: Every chapter draws from our guest experience. So it's it's
43:07
Speaker 2: very very personal and it's very very real. It's us,
43:13
Speaker 2: it's funny. I'm very proud of it. It was a
43:16
Speaker 2: real labor of love. Nippy and I tested our relationship
43:20
Speaker 2: to a new level of writing a book together.
43:22
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I bet, I mean you guys. So
43:24
Speaker 3: it was sort of weathered quite a few storms. So yes,
43:29
Speaker 3: that is also very admirable and impressive.
43:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, we would. I feel like if we got of
43:37
Speaker 2: a cult together, can do a cult podcast together and
43:40
Speaker 2: write a book about a cult, then we'll probably last.
43:43
Speaker 1: You know, you'll probably stay together. I can't believe that
43:49
Speaker 1: we have to end.
43:50
Speaker 3: I just have such an incredible amount of admiration and
43:54
Speaker 3: respect for you, and I am so thrilled that you
43:58
Speaker 3: took the time to talk with me, and you just
44:01
Speaker 3: have a great spirit. And I'm I hope everyone buys
44:06
Speaker 3: your book and reads it, and again the podcast is
44:09
Speaker 3: a little bit Culty best name ever, And I just
44:16
Speaker 3: I hope we get a chance to talk again. And
44:18
Speaker 3: maybe our kids will play basketball against each other at
44:21
Speaker 3: some point.
44:21
Speaker 2: I would love that. If I cut are you you're
44:24
Speaker 2: in San Francisco or San Francisco? Yeah, okay, well we'll
44:26
Speaker 2: have to make it happen. My life is cults and sports,
44:30
Speaker 2: and like you said at the beginning, you know, it's
44:33
Speaker 2: maybe this is my purpose, but it's one of the
44:36
Speaker 2: crazy silver lining is like if I could picture myself
44:39
Speaker 2: in the nineties knowing that, like, oh, in twenty thirty years,
44:42
Speaker 2: you're going to be in a podcast with that cool
44:44
Speaker 2: chick from Clueless talking to like, you know, like the
44:47
Speaker 2: full circle, Like what are I never I would never
44:50
Speaker 2: have this, Like that's so so cool, it's so I mean,
44:54
Speaker 2: it's a weird way to get there, but I do
44:56
Speaker 2: hope our pats cross in person, and it's always it's
44:59
Speaker 2: always I used to talk to people who have good
45:01
Speaker 2: questions and aren't judge, and I want to get into
45:06
Speaker 2: the nitty gritty. So I really appreciate the time and
45:08
Speaker 2: the and the thoughtfulness you put into this.
45:11
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. I'm glad. This really has been a pleasure.
45:14
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Sarah, Thank you, Lisa,