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H.S. Teacher Pamela Smart Poses in Undies, Orders "Mob Hit" on Hubby. · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Will she never go away?
0:19
Speaker 1: Why is she still talking? I'm talking about Pam Smart.
0:25
Speaker 1: Remember her gorgeous, beautiful and an alleged crime that shot
0:34
Speaker 1: not only a community but a country. In fact, a
0:37
Speaker 1: story with so many twists and turned it was developed
0:42
Speaker 1: into a major motion picture for the big screen. That's right,
0:46
Speaker 1: Pamela Smart. You may remember her as posing on a
0:51
Speaker 1: bed in some silky white push up. Brian Undy's that
0:55
Speaker 1: Pam Smart. Well, here's the latest. Take a listen to
0:58
Speaker 1: our friends at WMU nine. Smart was asking the executive
1:02
Speaker 1: counsel for a hearing where she could petition for the
1:06
Speaker 1: possibility of parole. Counselor Andrew Volynski was concerned about her
1:10
Speaker 1: lack of responsibility for what happened. If she's unable to
1:15
Speaker 1: come to terms with that, that creates concerns for me. Okay,
1:20
Speaker 1: wait a minute, come to terms with murder. Okay, we're
1:26
Speaker 1: hearing all of this, but how did it all start?
1:30
Speaker 1: How are we at this point today? Take a listen
1:33
Speaker 1: to this. Eighteen year old Pam Wojus was a freshman
1:37
Speaker 1: in college who loved a party, and she was instantly
1:41
Speaker 1: drawn to Greg Smart. She sat next to him down
1:44
Speaker 1: on the couch and started flirting with him and twirling
1:46
Speaker 1: his hair. With his rocker haircut and boyish smile, twenty
1:50
Speaker 1: year old Greg was just Pam's type. Greg was a
1:54
Speaker 1: great guy. If somebody said, hey, let's go away for
1:56
Speaker 1: the weekend and it was Friday night, he would go.
2:00
Speaker 1: Always lived like that. Greg was also known as the
2:03
Speaker 1: ladies man. Greg was seen as usual a bunch of
2:06
Speaker 1: other girls. A lot of the girls seemed to flock
2:08
Speaker 1: to him, But soon after Greg met Pam, he began
2:11
Speaker 1: to change his ways and settle down. Over time, it's
2:15
Speaker 1: slowly got, you know, more serious and more more serious.
2:18
Speaker 1: Pam was very excited about her a relationship with Greg.
2:22
Speaker 1: She used to write poems and she sent me a
2:25
Speaker 1: lot of them. When Greg surprised Pam with an engagement
2:29
Speaker 1: ring in January of nineteen eighty eight, she accepted, Wow,
2:33
Speaker 1: it seems like a storybook relationship, but not with a
2:39
Speaker 1: storybook ending. You were just hearing our friends at Investigation Discovery.
2:44
Speaker 1: For those of you just joining us, I mean, see Grace,
2:47
Speaker 1: this is crime stories. Thank you for being with us
2:49
Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Series XM one eleven. Pam
2:53
Speaker 1: Smart hits the headlines again breaking developments in her case. Well,
3:00
Speaker 1: I'll remember Pam Smart from the infamous photo of her
3:03
Speaker 1: posing doggie style on a bed and a push up
3:07
Speaker 1: bra and lingerie. Well that didn't end well. Take a
3:12
Speaker 1: listen to our clip three our friends at Investigation Discovery.
3:15
Speaker 1: Pam dreamed of a career in television. She was struggling
3:19
Speaker 1: to try to find a job as a reporter, which
3:21
Speaker 1: is what she really wanted to do. Instead, she landed
3:24
Speaker 1: a job as the media services director for the local
3:27
Speaker 1: school district, where her responsibilities included making educational videos. One
3:33
Speaker 1: of the projects that she had decided to do was
3:37
Speaker 1: some kind of a documentary which would involve some of
3:40
Speaker 1: the kids in the surrounding high school, and that was
3:43
Speaker 1: going to be about self esteem. She worked closely with
3:46
Speaker 1: student volunteers, including fifteen year old Cecilia Pierce. Cecilia Pierce
3:53
Speaker 1: was pamla Smart student in turn, and she became a
3:55
Speaker 1: really close friend in confident, which was a little unusual.
3:59
Speaker 1: Long haired sophomore Billy Flynn was another volunteer. He is
4:04
Speaker 1: an aspiring rock musician, He plays electric guitar, and he's
4:08
Speaker 1: got long hair. He is exactly what her husband Greg
4:12
Speaker 1: used to be. Okay, wait a minute. Now she's teaching
4:15
Speaker 1: a student and has attracted to a student that is
4:18
Speaker 1: just like her husband how he used to be. We
4:21
Speaker 1: definitely need a shrink for that with men All Star
4:23
Speaker 1: panel to make sense of what we know right now
4:26
Speaker 1: developments in the Pam Smart case. You may recall the
4:31
Speaker 1: movie To Die For with Nicole Kidman playing the role
4:35
Speaker 1: of Pam Smart with me Kathleen Murphy, high profile family
4:40
Speaker 1: lawyer that's certainly putting perfume on the pig no offense.
4:43
Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy joining me out of North Carolina. You can
4:46
Speaker 1: find her at m NC Domestic Law dot com or
4:49
Speaker 1: now psychologists joining us out of the Manhattan Jurisdiction in
4:54
Speaker 1: New York at Karen dot com. That's Karen with a C.
4:57
Speaker 1: Doctor Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the entire State of Florida,
5:03
Speaker 1: lecturer University Florida Medical School, Forensic Science and founder and
5:08
Speaker 1: host of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. Now
5:14
Speaker 1: to me, that sounds like a whole lot of fun.
5:17
Speaker 1: You can find him at PATHCAREMD dot com. Chris Buyers
5:22
Speaker 1: joining us form Police Chief JOHNS. Creek, George twenty five
5:25
Speaker 1: years on the force, now PI and polygrapher at Chris
5:29
Speaker 1: Buyer's Investigations and polygraph dot Com. But first, I'm going
5:33
Speaker 1: to go to a special guest joining us today from
5:35
Speaker 1: Oxygen dot com, true crime author Hell and the Heartland,
5:41
Speaker 1: whoa murder and math in the case of two missing girls.
5:44
Speaker 1: I'm on it, Jackson Miller, thanks for being with us.
5:47
Speaker 1: Tell me about Pam's Smart and husband Greg Smart's relationship,
5:53
Speaker 1: and it's kind of freaky that she then takes a
5:57
Speaker 1: liking to a boy, a team boy in her class
6:00
Speaker 1: at school. That's just like Greg, except a newer model.
6:06
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call in a shrink on that. But tell me,
6:09
Speaker 1: jack Smiller, who is Pam Smart, How did she grow up?
6:13
Speaker 1: Where is this place Darry, New Hampshire, And who is
6:16
Speaker 1: Greg Smart? Well, it's funny that you use the word
6:19
Speaker 1: storybook before, because Derry, New Hampshire is that story book setting.
6:22
Speaker 1: It's that full foliage in New England. It's the church
6:26
Speaker 1: people's poking out. It's a town of like thirty four thousand.
6:29
Speaker 1: Oh wait, hey, you know what you just made me
6:30
Speaker 1: think of? Sure, you know those calendars that have Jackie
6:36
Speaker 1: shaking your hand. Yes, there's calendars, and it's a nature
6:39
Speaker 1: and outdoors and that hosts some beautiful fall foliage picture
6:44
Speaker 1: and then they'll have a spire poking up with a
6:48
Speaker 1: cross on the top of a church spire in the
6:50
Speaker 1: middle of it. It's just gorgeous. That's what you made
6:52
Speaker 1: me think of, Jack, That's exactly what it was. And
6:55
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's really nice because it's only like
6:57
Speaker 1: forty five minutes away from Boston, so it's a nice
6:59
Speaker 1: will alternative for people who don't want the hustle bustle
7:02
Speaker 1: of the city. But it's just like it's just like
7:04
Speaker 1: that that that story book setting what you see on TV.
7:07
Speaker 1: It's it's that perfect New England image. In fact, Robert
7:09
Speaker 1: Frost was from there, I believe. Really yeah, yeah, it's
7:12
Speaker 1: it's really true. How big of a town is Dairy,
7:14
Speaker 1: New Hampshire. So it's a it's about thirty four thousand
7:18
Speaker 1: people and it's right in between Manchester and Salem, and
7:22
Speaker 1: like I said, it's it's it's not the big city,
7:24
Speaker 1: but it's close enough to the big city. Um, it's
7:27
Speaker 1: really just like the perfect all American town. And um, yeah,
7:31
Speaker 1: that's where that's where Greg and Pam were and they
7:34
Speaker 1: had this this rock and roll marriage. It was it
7:36
Speaker 1: was kind of perfect in a way. And I say
7:38
Speaker 1: that as a metal head myself, of course, but it
7:40
Speaker 1: was that perfect headbanging, you know, rock and roll. They
7:43
Speaker 1: had a dog named Halen, you know, very very rock
7:46
Speaker 1: and roll, but it seemed very loving on the outside. Okay,
7:49
Speaker 1: hold on, I'm just drinking out of the fire hydrant here.
7:52
Speaker 1: It's just too much, too fast. I'm sorry. Okay, the
7:56
Speaker 1: quote perfect headbanger can roll marriage. You know, I hadn't
8:02
Speaker 1: really thought about it like that, but I'm going to
8:05
Speaker 1: take that into consideration. You know. Let me go to
8:10
Speaker 1: you first, Karen Stark, New York psychologists joining us in
8:14
Speaker 1: Manhattan today. Karen, I, first of all, I don't think
8:18
Speaker 1: I've ever seen anyone that reminds me of my husband
8:22
Speaker 1: in his youth. But that's kind of freaky. It's like
8:29
Speaker 1: thinking considering replacing your husband with a younger version of
8:34
Speaker 1: your husband. What does that mean? You know? What makes
8:39
Speaker 1: me think of Nancy? Not a younger David, but somebody
8:43
Speaker 1: who isn't committed to the relationship, is not really capable
8:51
Speaker 1: of attaching having commitments. And when we think about younger version.
8:56
Speaker 1: We're not talking about somebody who's a few years younger.
9:00
Speaker 1: We're talking about a minor, which is totally unacceptable. That's
9:05
Speaker 1: like pedophilia. Well, you know, if you all weren't awake
9:10
Speaker 1: before you hear pedophilia, you're awake now. Kathleen Murphy, just
9:15
Speaker 1: to put it ephemistically, you have seen your share of
9:18
Speaker 1: divorce cases, have you ever? Of course, we always hear
9:22
Speaker 1: of men, no offense, men marrying a younger woman. Don't
9:27
Speaker 1: usually hear of women marrying a younger guy dumping their
9:30
Speaker 1: husbands for a younger guy. But I guess it does happen.
9:33
Speaker 1: But a long story short, Kathleen Murphy, and all the
9:35
Speaker 1: divorces you've seen, have you seen a woman replace her
9:39
Speaker 1: husband for a younger version of the husband? Are you
9:42
Speaker 1: asking me if I've seen a woman replace their husband
9:46
Speaker 1: for a child? Never, because that's exactly what Pam's I'm
9:50
Speaker 1: asking you. Have you seen a woman replace her husband
9:53
Speaker 1: with a younger version. I don't mean just a younger guy.
9:56
Speaker 1: I mean somebody that looks, talks, acts, walks like the husband,
10:01
Speaker 1: but younger. That's pretty rare. I don't do that alive.
10:04
Speaker 1: I see them going to the opposite of what their
10:07
Speaker 1: husband was. Ah, they go, that's a good point. That's
10:10
Speaker 1: a good point. Spring breakers and parents beware. The disappearance
10:21
Speaker 1: of honor student Natalie Holloway is a warning. We had
10:24
Speaker 1: to Aruba with Natalie's mom. What can we learn Nancy
10:27
Speaker 1: Grace's shocking new investigation streaming now only on Fox Nation.
10:31
Speaker 1: Sign up today, Time Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackson Miller's
10:43
Speaker 1: joining us newswriter for Oxygen dot Com and to crime author.
10:46
Speaker 1: So Pam Smart dreamed of a career in TV, such
10:52
Speaker 1: as being a reporter. Is that correct? That's what they say? Yes, Yeah,
10:56
Speaker 1: that's that's what she wanted. She had gotten into media.
11:00
Speaker 1: That's how she got the job at the high school.
11:01
Speaker 1: She was a media director there. Actually, okay, yes, let
11:04
Speaker 1: me ask you about that, Jack s Miller. Everybody, Jack's
11:06
Speaker 1: joining us from Oxygen dot com. Jacks, what exactly was
11:10
Speaker 1: her position at the high school? So Pam worked at
11:13
Speaker 1: Winnikin at high school where she was a media director.
11:17
Speaker 1: She did have high school interns working with her, including
11:19
Speaker 1: Cecilia Pierce. And yeah, she was a media director. She
11:23
Speaker 1: was an employee. She was about twenty two years old
11:25
Speaker 1: and that's where she met Billy Flint. Now, what does
11:28
Speaker 1: media director be because I understand she went off on
11:32
Speaker 1: a tangent making some type of a documentary with the students.
11:36
Speaker 1: Is that correct? Yeah, she made a documentary about self esteem.
11:40
Speaker 1: I think she was trying to improve esteem with her students,
11:44
Speaker 1: which is kind of ironic given the whole situation. But
11:47
Speaker 1: that's what she did. She would make these videos and
11:50
Speaker 1: involve the students. Okay, guys, take a listen now to
11:54
Speaker 1: the student. You hear Jack's referring to Cecilia years, I
12:01
Speaker 1: can't hear you. She sat me down in a chair,
12:04
Speaker 1: and what did you say? She said, I think I'm
12:06
Speaker 1: in love with Bill? And what did you say that?
12:10
Speaker 1: I laughed? Was ridiculous? Was ridiculous? Why would ridiculous? Because
12:15
Speaker 1: she was married? She was twenty two? What did she
12:19
Speaker 1: do when you laugh? She just kept telling me over
12:23
Speaker 1: and over again, I'm serious. So what happened after that?
12:29
Speaker 1: I'm about a week later she told Bill do you
12:32
Speaker 1: have any heart? I told Bill Pam wanted to see him.
12:40
Speaker 1: You say about a week later told Bill audio was
12:43
Speaker 1: a week later? I'm not positive that's when she she
12:48
Speaker 1: told me that she told him about a week later.
12:51
Speaker 1: You know, do you, Karen star car renowned psychologists joining
12:54
Speaker 1: us out of Manhattan. It sounds like, um, like a
12:59
Speaker 1: note you would send in the first grade. Do you
13:02
Speaker 1: like me? Check yes? If so, check no, if no,
13:08
Speaker 1: or you you know, pass it through a friend. Hey,
13:10
Speaker 1: I like you? Will you marry me? In the third grade.
13:14
Speaker 1: That's what she's actually getting another teen girl to tell
13:19
Speaker 1: the teen boy Billy Flynn Bill Flynn that she quote
13:23
Speaker 1: likes him. This doesn't sound like adults, well, none of
13:26
Speaker 1: it sounds like an adult, Nancy. It's not any kind
13:29
Speaker 1: of adult that we're used to. And it's it's really
13:33
Speaker 1: that was a great, a really astute observation, because when
13:37
Speaker 1: you think about high school, that's that's the kind of
13:40
Speaker 1: stuff you do. You tell your friend that you like
13:43
Speaker 1: somebody so that the friend can tell the other person
13:46
Speaker 1: and you get an answer do you like me? Back?
13:49
Speaker 1: And she's just not mature. She's she's one of the kids,
13:55
Speaker 1: is how she seems to see herself. What is that
13:58
Speaker 1: when you don't go beyond high school? Okay, this is
14:02
Speaker 1: a little off topic, but Karen, have you ever met
14:05
Speaker 1: those people that they still talk about, Hey, I was
14:08
Speaker 1: a football captain in high school. That was that the
14:12
Speaker 1: pinnacle when you were sixth ahead of the cheerleaders. They're
14:16
Speaker 1: still they watch it. Wait a minute, I mean it's
14:21
Speaker 1: like she never got past the high school phase. This
14:25
Speaker 1: has more like fifth grade girls. What is that? It's
14:28
Speaker 1: an arrested development. That's exactly what it is. It's developed
14:32
Speaker 1: mentally delayed. It's somebody who should be a certain age,
14:37
Speaker 1: but mentally they're not. They're not. Why does that happen?
14:40
Speaker 1: Actual age? It's just somebody who is not capable of
14:44
Speaker 1: getting old her. Well, maybe they don't want to grow up,
14:47
Speaker 1: maybe they don't want to. Perhaps they might they might
14:51
Speaker 1: not want to, but also they might not be capable,
14:54
Speaker 1: like they've reached their peak what you said, at an
14:57
Speaker 1: early age, and they just can't go on to be
15:02
Speaker 1: somebody who is a complete adult, a mature you know,
15:07
Speaker 1: capable of having any kind of real attachment. That's what
15:11
Speaker 1: she sounds like when you are describing her, you know,
15:14
Speaker 1: to Chris Buyers joining me for employe Chief John's Creek,
15:17
Speaker 1: Georgia now Chris Buyers Investigations and polygraph dot com. That's
15:22
Speaker 1: a really big mouthful for a website. Just so you know,
15:27
Speaker 1: Chris Buyers, investigations, and polygraph dot com all one word.
15:31
Speaker 1: I mean, you needn't think about that anyway that I's
15:33
Speaker 1: like Chris. I mean, you investigate divorces, cheaters, all sorts
15:41
Speaker 1: of investigations. That's just the tip of the iceberg for you.
15:44
Speaker 1: But have you ever seen a woman very attractive woman?
15:48
Speaker 1: Many people think she's attractive. I don't, but many people
15:51
Speaker 1: do go for a teen boy for what Okay, obviously
15:57
Speaker 1: for sex, but that last of about three minutes, then
16:01
Speaker 1: that's or then what do you have? Yeah? Absolutely, this
16:04
Speaker 1: is just absolutely absurd. I have never experienced anything like
16:09
Speaker 1: that in any investigations I've done. It's just just completely twisted.
16:14
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, but that's what happened. Now take
16:19
Speaker 1: a listen to this from the horse's mouth. Um why,
16:24
Speaker 1: I don't know, but how when we were working on
16:28
Speaker 1: the video, I was well, I was told from the
16:31
Speaker 1: beginning that from Cecilia that Bill had had a crush
16:33
Speaker 1: on me, and I didn't like him at first, but
16:40
Speaker 1: yes I did, and I did start to like him
16:42
Speaker 1: during the filming of the Orange Shoes video. Did you
16:48
Speaker 1: tell him anyway? Yes, I did. People want to joy
16:52
Speaker 1: how that came above. Um Cecilia had said that Bill
16:57
Speaker 1: was talking about me and that she thought that I
16:59
Speaker 1: should talk to him, and I believe he came over
17:04
Speaker 1: to my office and I had told him that I
17:07
Speaker 1: had known he had liked me, and that I thought
17:11
Speaker 1: he was really nice and that I liked him too,
17:13
Speaker 1: but that I was married, and that I was not
17:14
Speaker 1: interested in having a relationship with him. What alternative universe
17:19
Speaker 1: are they living in? I mean, she's married. This is
17:23
Speaker 1: a teen boy in her class that are making an
17:27
Speaker 1: orange juice video together, and they're talking about he liked
17:31
Speaker 1: me and I liked him. What you know, I don't know.
17:37
Speaker 1: Jack s. Miller, you're the newswriter for auction dot Com.
17:40
Speaker 1: I'm sure you see a lot of cases with affairs
17:43
Speaker 1: and sex, relationships and marriages, break up and murders happened.
17:47
Speaker 1: I saw it a lot as a prosecuting attorney. But this,
17:52
Speaker 1: even when you hear Pama smart speak, she sounds like
17:56
Speaker 1: a fourteen year old. I was just going to say
17:58
Speaker 1: that if I didn't know better. I literally thought I
18:00
Speaker 1: was listening to a fifteen year old talk about, Oh
18:03
Speaker 1: he likes me, you know, I like him, blah blah blah.
18:06
Speaker 1: You know, that's exactly what it sounds like. And it's
18:09
Speaker 1: really hard for me just listening to that clip right
18:11
Speaker 1: there to wrap my head that this is a grown
18:14
Speaker 1: married women now And Kathleen Murphy, have you ever had
18:18
Speaker 1: a woman come sit down in your office and she's
18:22
Speaker 1: willing to throw her family, her home, her career, her
18:29
Speaker 1: everything out the window to get it on with a
18:32
Speaker 1: teen boy, which is pedophilia. I mean, have you ever
18:37
Speaker 1: seen someone No, this is this is the crazy Nancy.
18:43
Speaker 1: Not only did she take these steps with this minor child,
18:48
Speaker 1: she thought that her relationship with this child was okay,
18:54
Speaker 1: and she now she thinks she thought it was okay.
18:58
Speaker 1: She shared her relationship with the other kids. It was
19:01
Speaker 1: no secret, I know, which makes it even worse. Everybody knew. Guys,
19:07
Speaker 1: take a listen to more of the story of Pam's
19:11
Speaker 1: smart from the Horse's Mouth. Well. I didn't set out
19:16
Speaker 1: to have an affair with him, but I did, and
19:21
Speaker 1: in February I believe it was February twenty seventh or something.
19:25
Speaker 1: It was during Faboi vacation. Also, while I was over
19:28
Speaker 1: his house, we were working on the video. We were
19:30
Speaker 1: in his room and he kissed me. I really didn't
19:33
Speaker 1: want to have an affair, and I was trying to
19:35
Speaker 1: fight my feelings up until March twenty fourth, where he
19:43
Speaker 1: had On March fourth, Bill came over my house with
19:47
Speaker 1: my condo and dairy because Greg was gone to Atlantic City.
19:55
Speaker 1: I'd said I was going to be by myself. Cecilia
19:57
Speaker 1: wanted to sleep over, and Bill asked if he could
19:59
Speaker 1: come gone. Do you think it's the same as Celia? Yes, yes,
20:21
Speaker 1: I mean this is breaking every rule of being a teacher,
20:24
Speaker 1: which I taught English while I was waiting to find
20:28
Speaker 1: out if I could get into law school. I mean
20:30
Speaker 1: all the red flags. You don't teachers don't go to
20:36
Speaker 1: children's homes when the parents are gone to tutor them.
20:42
Speaker 1: Everything she just said was wrong. Take a listen to
20:48
Speaker 1: what that student, Jackson Miller first told us about the friends,
20:52
Speaker 1: seemingly in the middle of the mix. Cecilia Price, Cecilia Pierce,
20:59
Speaker 1: did you heard anything your song? HEFTI was a happy her. Yes.
21:08
Speaker 1: Close up. One day, when I was going to Pam's
21:12
Speaker 1: office fifth pariod, I walked in and she was on
21:14
Speaker 1: the phone, apparently arguing with somebody, and I looked at
21:20
Speaker 1: her and I said Greg, and she shook her head, yes,
21:23
Speaker 1: and she was saying something about getting in a divorce,
21:27
Speaker 1: and then they started fighting over who was going to
21:29
Speaker 1: take the dog and the furniture and everything. And then
21:32
Speaker 1: she said, fine, take the dog and she hung up,
21:35
Speaker 1: and then she said I was I told her that
21:40
Speaker 1: was good. You know they were going to get a divorce.
21:43
Speaker 1: And she said, well, I don't know what to do.
21:45
Speaker 1: He's going to take the dog and the furniture. And
21:48
Speaker 1: she called Greg's parents because I mean, she called Greg
21:51
Speaker 1: back and told him she was sorry because she didn't
21:54
Speaker 1: want him to call his parents because she didn't want
21:56
Speaker 1: anyone to know they would have in trouble. And more
21:59
Speaker 1: from Cecilia years. Listen now, when she said you could
22:03
Speaker 1: eat a divorce with Joe Gregor, thank you serious? I
22:09
Speaker 1: thought that she was serious, but that she wouldn't do it.
22:12
Speaker 1: I'll have it done. Then how much How long were
22:17
Speaker 1: you having these conversations with the defendant at this time?
22:25
Speaker 1: At first I was just like every few days, and
22:29
Speaker 1: then it was every day. And what kind of days
22:32
Speaker 1: would you be talking about? What was going on so far?
22:38
Speaker 1: Like what they had discussed last period her and Bill
22:42
Speaker 1: had discussed, and what they had decided upon things like
22:46
Speaker 1: to where they had tied back and to where had
22:49
Speaker 1: dot closed, and to make it look like a burglary
22:52
Speaker 1: of all people, Why would you confide your murder plan
22:57
Speaker 1: two a teen girl? Why you might as well just
23:04
Speaker 1: put up a billboard on Third Avenue in New York.
23:07
Speaker 1: I'm going to kill my husband, might as well and
23:10
Speaker 1: then the mama comes. Take a listen to our friends
23:13
Speaker 1: at ABC Nightline on May first, nineteen ninety, just a
23:17
Speaker 1: few days shy of their first wedding anniversary, everything changes.
23:21
Speaker 1: Pamela is at a school board meeting. She gets home
23:24
Speaker 1: about ten o'clock. She opens the front door and in
23:28
Speaker 1: the vestival is her husband. She starts banging on door.
23:32
Speaker 1: Somebody called ninety one. Hurry, hurry, my husband, my husband.
23:36
Speaker 1: I was working as an investigative reporter in New Hampshire
23:39
Speaker 1: and the scanner radio goes off and we understand that
23:42
Speaker 1: a young man has been murdered inside his condominium. It's
23:45
Speaker 1: got a bullet wound in the back of his head.
23:48
Speaker 1: This looks like a mob hit. This is an execution.
23:51
Speaker 1: I'm still hunted every day by memories of what must
23:56
Speaker 1: have happened to him inside our how before he was killed.
24:01
Speaker 1: It looks like Greg must have walked into the middle
24:03
Speaker 1: of a botched, screwed up burglary. We noticed that several
24:09
Speaker 1: things were moved. We found that the upstairs as well
24:12
Speaker 1: had been ransacked. The dressers had been gone through completely.
24:30
Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace right after Doctor Tim Gallagher,
24:37
Speaker 1: a medical examiner for the State of Florida. Doctor Gallagher,
24:41
Speaker 1: what do the investigator mean when he said it looked
24:45
Speaker 1: like a mob hit? What are the earmarks of a
24:49
Speaker 1: mob hit? Oh? Thanks for having me on the show, Nancy.
24:51
Speaker 1: You know, the earmarks of a mob hit are quite simple. Generally,
24:55
Speaker 1: it's a single small caliber gunshot wound to the back
24:59
Speaker 1: of the head, generally when the victim is on their
25:03
Speaker 1: knees or on the ground somehow. How would you describe
25:07
Speaker 1: the injury to twenty four year old Greg Smart, Doctor Gallagher?
25:11
Speaker 1: I would describe it as a single close range gunshot
25:16
Speaker 1: wound to the back of the head that caused skull fracture, bleeding,
25:21
Speaker 1: and destruction of the brain. When the brain is hit by,
25:26
Speaker 1: for instance, a twenty two caliber, which is a small caliber,
25:30
Speaker 1: the brain immediately quits telling the heart to function, and
25:34
Speaker 1: that's the cause of death. Correct, Well, Generally, the heart
25:38
Speaker 1: does not need the brain to tell it to beat.
25:41
Speaker 1: You can actually take the heart out of the body,
25:43
Speaker 1: a beating heart out of the body, and it'll continue
25:45
Speaker 1: to beat. It does not need the brain to tell
25:47
Speaker 1: it to do so. But what the brain needs to
25:51
Speaker 1: do is tell the lungs to breathe, the lungs to
25:54
Speaker 1: expand and exhale so the person can absorb oxygen and
26:02
Speaker 1: to exhale their carbon dioxide. So that's generally the cause
26:07
Speaker 1: of death there, Jackie, when he was talking to that,
26:11
Speaker 1: make you notice that you were breathing, because Okay, that
26:17
Speaker 1: settles it. I'm totally going to the International Forensic Medicine
26:20
Speaker 1: Death Investigation Conference. That was just it. So the brain
26:24
Speaker 1: doesn't tell the heart to be You're right, of course
26:27
Speaker 1: you are, And I should have known that. Because people
26:30
Speaker 1: continue to live after their brain dead, their heart keeps beating,
26:34
Speaker 1: so the brain has to tell the lungs to breathe.
26:38
Speaker 1: I thought that was involuntary as well, but no, no, no, yet.
26:41
Speaker 1: There is there's a nerve that goes from the brain
26:45
Speaker 1: to the lungs, and that nerve has to be activated
26:48
Speaker 1: by the brain to tell the lungs to either exhale
26:52
Speaker 1: or inhale, so that is destroyed during the injury that
26:57
Speaker 1: they received from the gunshot wound, and that doesn't occur longer,
27:00
Speaker 1: and that's generally the cause of death. In addition to
27:03
Speaker 1: the destruction of the other parts of the brain, the
27:07
Speaker 1: brain swelling and skull fractures, and then the loss of
27:10
Speaker 1: the cerebral spinal fluid, that will also contribute to their
27:13
Speaker 1: cause of death. But it's it's instantaneous. I'm curious to
27:18
Speaker 1: a Gallagher, do you talk about topics like this when
27:23
Speaker 1: you're not at work? Um depends on the company I keep.
27:28
Speaker 1: I mean generally yes, yes, your wife a doctor, she is,
27:33
Speaker 1: but she is a doctor for female cancers, so a
27:39
Speaker 1: gynecological oncologists, right right, not guying. You don't just kick
27:44
Speaker 1: this around with her at dinner. We'd like to watch
27:46
Speaker 1: the shows and we talk about the shows, and we
27:48
Speaker 1: talk about the people on the shows and if we
27:50
Speaker 1: know them or not. UM. But generally UM medical topics
27:55
Speaker 1: we talk about. But forensic topics such as the gore
27:58
Speaker 1: and the blood and stuff like that, not so much,
28:03
Speaker 1: although that's what I like to talk about. Yeah, okay, guys,
28:08
Speaker 1: we're talking to doctor Tim Gallagher, medical examer for the
28:11
Speaker 1: State of Florida. And remember panel jump in. We're not
28:14
Speaker 1: at a tea party with Queen Elizabeth. So if you
28:16
Speaker 1: have something to say, say it. Of course I'll probably
28:19
Speaker 1: immediately cut you off. Reprimand you. But that said, and
28:22
Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, are you getting the picture of this woman.
28:25
Speaker 1: It's a grown woman and she's trading gossip about her
28:30
Speaker 1: love or sex affair with a teen boy with a
28:33
Speaker 1: high school girl. But you know she's not responsible for
28:36
Speaker 1: killing Greg Smart. You do know that she's not responsible
28:38
Speaker 1: according to Pam Smart and her mother. So guys, what happens? Then?
28:43
Speaker 1: I find this really interesting, And I know, Jack s Miller,
28:45
Speaker 1: you're gonna do a backflip when you hear this. Take
28:48
Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at Real Crime Investigation Discovery.
28:52
Speaker 1: Less than forty eight hours after finding her husband murdered,
28:55
Speaker 1: Pam phones local TV crime reporter Bill Spencer. Pamel It
29:00
Speaker 1: calls me and asks me to interview, which completely just
29:06
Speaker 1: blows me away and everybody else. When Spencer arrives for
29:10
Speaker 1: the interview, he's stunned by Pam's appearance. A little over
29:17
Speaker 1: twenty four hours after a murder, the wife doesn't greet
29:20
Speaker 1: you dressed to the teeth, make up perfect, hair perfect.
29:24
Speaker 1: He's even more stunned by Pam's strange behavior. One year
29:28
Speaker 1: ago today, we were married right about this, you know
29:31
Speaker 1: this time. One of the first things that Pamela says
29:35
Speaker 1: is it's going to be our one year wedding anniversary
29:38
Speaker 1: in a couple of days. How would it be if
29:39
Speaker 1: I go into the refrigerator because I've got the top
29:42
Speaker 1: layer of our wedding cake and I could go pull
29:44
Speaker 1: that out. You could get some b rolled me doing that,
29:47
Speaker 1: And wouldn't that wouldn't that make an emotional, poignant moment
29:50
Speaker 1: in your story? And I was like, holy cats, this
29:55
Speaker 1: girl is helping me produce the story. She's trying to
29:59
Speaker 1: She's trying to produce the news story. Jack's Miller. I
30:03
Speaker 1: remember when my fiance Keith was murdered just before our wedding,
30:08
Speaker 1: and I remember I couldn't even think straight. I just
30:17
Speaker 1: want to go out into a forest and how I
30:21
Speaker 1: just I couldn't even form sentences. Did you hear what
30:28
Speaker 1: the news producer just said? Within less than forty eight
30:32
Speaker 1: hours after the murder, pam Smart's on the phone trying
30:37
Speaker 1: to do a lead story. I wish you could see
30:40
Speaker 1: my face right now, my jaws on the floor, because
30:43
Speaker 1: I've never heard that before. This is the first time
30:45
Speaker 1: I'm hearing that, and it's I'm having a total WTF
30:48
Speaker 1: moment here, like, what is that? What is what is
30:51
Speaker 1: going on? It's diabolical because we she knows, Oh gosh,
30:56
Speaker 1: I don't even have words. I don't. It's it's it's shocking.
30:59
Speaker 1: It's what we're shocking. It's amazing. Karen start jump in. Well,
31:04
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not the least bit surprised. Think about it. Nancy.
31:08
Speaker 1: She's describing how she feels about this guy, and she says, well,
31:12
Speaker 1: you know, but I'm married. She doesn't say he's fifteen.
31:16
Speaker 1: She says, well, I'm married. Her morals are correct. She
31:20
Speaker 1: doesn't know what she's talking about, and all she's thinking
31:23
Speaker 1: about now, narcissistically, is that she's going to be in
31:26
Speaker 1: front of a camera and let's get the best story
31:29
Speaker 1: we could possibly get. I'm not surprised at all. I'm
31:32
Speaker 1: not shocked by this. It's all about drama. She's young
31:36
Speaker 1: in her head and she's not thinking about the loss
31:40
Speaker 1: of her husband. Obviously not at all. Well, he goes
31:44
Speaker 1: quickly from high school, whisperings in the hall about a
31:47
Speaker 1: sex affair with a teacher to ballistics listen local parents.
31:52
Speaker 1: Forty five year old Vance Ladimi claims he has information
31:56
Speaker 1: about a murderer. Very concerned because he thinks his son
31:59
Speaker 1: maybe involved in him homicide. Vladimy says that his seventeen
32:04
Speaker 1: year old son Jr. And two of his friends have
32:06
Speaker 1: been talking about committing a murder. This Ladimy gets to
32:10
Speaker 1: find out that the gun that was supposed to use
32:12
Speaker 1: was a thirty eight. He owns a thirty eighth. He
32:17
Speaker 1: goes and checks to see whether his gun is in
32:20
Speaker 1: fact still where he thought it was supposed to be. Well,
32:23
Speaker 1: He opens his his dresser. He takes a look at
32:25
Speaker 1: this firearm. He says, I'll wait a second. I didn't
32:28
Speaker 1: claim this. Why is it clean now? The gun is
32:35
Speaker 1: sent out for ballistics testing. When the results come back,
32:39
Speaker 1: police are astonished the single bullet that killed Greg Smart
32:43
Speaker 1: was fired from Latimy's gun. Police suddenly have three suspects
32:50
Speaker 1: in the murder, seventeen year old j R. Ladimy and
32:54
Speaker 1: his friends, sixteen year old Pete Randall and sixteen year
33:00
Speaker 1: old Billy Flynn straight out to Chris Buyer's forearm police
33:04
Speaker 1: chief now PI and polygrapher Chris Buyers. I think that
33:10
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't get and they shouldn't. They're civilians.
33:14
Speaker 1: Why should they know this that a ballistics match is
33:19
Speaker 1: just as positive as a fingerprint, a human fingerprint. Explain, Yeah,
33:25
Speaker 1: every firearm is different. The barrel has grooves in spiraling
33:32
Speaker 1: in it, and when the projectile leaves the muzzle of
33:36
Speaker 1: that firearm, it leaves an imprint that matches only to
33:40
Speaker 1: that firearm. So, like you say, it's just like the
33:43
Speaker 1: human fingerprint. There's only one of those that are going
33:46
Speaker 1: to match up. And so it's easy when you have
33:49
Speaker 1: that projectile to come back, find that firearm, shoot some
33:53
Speaker 1: rounds through it and compare it and know that that
33:55
Speaker 1: is the firearm, that that was fire farm. I always
33:57
Speaker 1: wished I had a video to shede your ours. When
34:02
Speaker 1: guns are actually made, they're made of boiling hot lead,
34:09
Speaker 1: and when the barrel cools down, there are drippings and
34:16
Speaker 1: irregularities on the inside of the barrel, the inside of
34:22
Speaker 1: the barrel, and they harden and they can never be changed.
34:26
Speaker 1: So when a bullet hurdles down that barrel, so fast.
34:32
Speaker 1: It leaves markings on the bullet, scars, scratches that no
34:39
Speaker 1: other gun can leave. So when you find the gun
34:42
Speaker 1: in question, you take a bullet and you go to
34:46
Speaker 1: the crime lab and you fire it into a tub
34:48
Speaker 1: of water or a pillow, and then you take your
34:52
Speaker 1: known bullet that you just fired and the bullet from
34:55
Speaker 1: the body or the scene. You look at them under
34:57
Speaker 1: a microscope and you can see the exact same squiggles
35:02
Speaker 1: or markings on the two bullets. That is how you
35:06
Speaker 1: do it, right, Chris, Absolutely, that's exactly how it works. Well,
35:11
Speaker 1: amazingly there was more evidence. Jack's Miller. What do you
35:15
Speaker 1: think was the single most damning evidence at trial? Well,
35:20
Speaker 1: I think it was two things. I think it was
35:22
Speaker 1: Cecilia Pierce wearing a wire to get, you know, all
35:25
Speaker 1: the information that Pam divulged to her. And I think
35:28
Speaker 1: it was Billy Flynn copping to a plea deal in
35:31
Speaker 1: exchange for his testimony. I think that those were the
35:33
Speaker 1: biggest factors. And what exactly was Billy Flynn the teen
35:38
Speaker 1: boy lover? What was his testimony? Jacks? So he really
35:43
Speaker 1: he said everything he was in this illicit relationship with Pam.
35:49
Speaker 1: She was telling him that Greg was abusive. She was
35:54
Speaker 1: afraid that if she tried to divorce him or leave him,
35:56
Speaker 1: that he would take the dog and take the money
35:58
Speaker 1: and take the furniture. So that's why he did what
36:01
Speaker 1: he did. Take a listen to our friend Juju Chang
36:05
Speaker 1: and ABC. You know in every big trial there is
36:09
Speaker 1: that one aha moment, the moment everybody remembers was Simpson,
36:14
Speaker 1: It was the globe. In this case, it was Pam
36:18
Speaker 1: Smart and a white strapless bikini posing suggestively on a bed.
36:24
Speaker 1: As if the supersensational trial isn't crazy enough already, Oh
36:27
Speaker 1: my god. They were made between her and a friend
36:32
Speaker 1: a girlfriend for a modeling contest. They took photos of
36:35
Speaker 1: each other. Those photographs made it into court and the
36:39
Speaker 1: prosecution claimed that she had deliberately taken those to be
36:44
Speaker 1: seductive to get Billy Flynn to do her bidding to
36:47
Speaker 1: kill her husband. She's just gonna do the mouth if
36:51
Speaker 1: I wanted him like he When those photographs come in,
36:55
Speaker 1: you can see it kind of was overwhelming for a
36:59
Speaker 1: teenage point. This was a lot of sex for a
37:01
Speaker 1: sixteen year old to have. You can get that sense
37:04
Speaker 1: that it had a lot of influence on him a
37:06
Speaker 1: lot of power over him, enough to make him kill.
37:11
Speaker 1: Bill Flynn was actually fifteen at the time. Jack's miller
37:16
Speaker 1: the You hear Pam Smart's mother insisting that these photos
37:20
Speaker 1: that came into trial were innocent. They were taken for
37:23
Speaker 1: a modeling contest, but they came into evidence. Isn't it true?
37:29
Speaker 1: The prosecution says, these illicit photos taken by Pam Smith,
37:33
Speaker 1: by Pam's Smart were given to Bill Flynn, the teen boy. Yeah,
37:37
Speaker 1: you know, I know that that there were the photos.
37:40
Speaker 1: I know that they had watched some sexually charged films together.
37:45
Speaker 1: I mean, it was very clear that she was producing
37:47
Speaker 1: as child essentially, And yeah, that was one of the
37:51
Speaker 1: hugest factors. And how she got this this young boy
37:54
Speaker 1: to kill for her. I mean, she can say no, no,
37:58
Speaker 1: no until she's blue in the face. But then when
38:00
Speaker 1: the jury sees the photos she's sending this team boy,
38:04
Speaker 1: there's really no question in her in their minds, she
38:07
Speaker 1: set out to seduce the boy. That's child molestation, and
38:12
Speaker 1: then what else would she do? That was the question
38:15
Speaker 1: for the jury. It was no big surprise when Pam
38:17
Speaker 1: Smart was convicted. But what is a surprise is that
38:21
Speaker 1: even to this day she refuses to acpect responsibility. Take
38:26
Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at WBZ for Boston. I
38:30
Speaker 1: sat down interviewed her in prison, and she told me
38:33
Speaker 1: she will never admit to planning that murder. It's been
38:37
Speaker 1: twenty nine years. Is it time to just admit you
38:41
Speaker 1: did it and say you're sorry again? I don't think so,
38:45
Speaker 1: because I don't think that a person should admit to
38:47
Speaker 1: a crime they didn't commit. Would it be worth it
38:49
Speaker 1: to admit it, even if it would just help get
38:51
Speaker 1: you a hearing To me, no, I wouldn't be able
38:54
Speaker 1: to reconcile that and live with myself. You know, I'm
38:57
Speaker 1: saying this is my fault. What about those people who
38:59
Speaker 1: say that's not enough? Though? I don't know if anything
39:02
Speaker 1: I ever do is going to be enough, And you're
39:04
Speaker 1: never going to say it. You're never going to say
39:06
Speaker 1: I told them to kill my husband. No. So even
39:09
Speaker 1: in this new letter, it doesn't see her position has
39:12
Speaker 1: changed at all. She just says she accepts her role
39:15
Speaker 1: in the crime. And one thing to note. All four
39:17
Speaker 1: of those men convicted in the actual murder, including the
39:20
Speaker 1: what who admitted to pulling the trigger, they've all completed
39:23
Speaker 1: their prison sentences. That is very interesting that they've all
39:26
Speaker 1: been parolled, but she still remains in prison. She's still
39:29
Speaker 1: behind bars, but the trigger man has been parolled. Now
39:33
Speaker 1: take a listen to Paula Eban w BZ four. The
39:37
Speaker 1: Attorney General's office is now reviewing the petition and needs
39:40
Speaker 1: to go to an executive council and then the governor.
39:43
Speaker 1: She's filed this petition before, it has never gone to
39:47
Speaker 1: a hearing. You what are his parents saying about it?
39:50
Speaker 1: Greg Smart's family, we should say, always maintains that she
39:54
Speaker 1: is exactly where she belongs, and they are united in
39:58
Speaker 1: saying they do not believe she should ever released from prison.
40:01
Speaker 1: We will continue to follow the developments on Governor Sanoonhos,
40:03
Speaker 1: the only person who can ultimately make the decision if
40:06
Speaker 1: she gets to hear it. So Jack's miller. At the
40:09
Speaker 1: end of the day, what happens with Pam's Smart bid
40:13
Speaker 1: for freedom. Well, this was her third time trying for
40:16
Speaker 1: a reduction hearing, and for the third time she was denied.
40:20
Speaker 1: And you know, it's important to mention that all the
40:22
Speaker 1: other defendants, they all tried for reduction for a two sentence,
40:27
Speaker 1: and they all got that they've all been released. She's
40:29
Speaker 1: the only one left. She's the only one left behind
40:31
Speaker 1: bars for Greg's Smart's murder, Kathleen Murphy. She's also the
40:35
Speaker 1: only one that refuses to admit she did it. She's
40:38
Speaker 1: not going to get out until she admits. Well, she
40:40
Speaker 1: admits now that she's sorry for her role, as stated earlier,
40:44
Speaker 1: But the woman had an opportunity to admit her role
40:49
Speaker 1: when Greg's parents were alive, and she's still denied her role.
40:52
Speaker 1: She's still denying she orchestrated it. She's saying that, yeah,
40:57
Speaker 1: she's responsible because she had the affair with the team boy,
41:00
Speaker 1: she molested him. She is not saying, am I right,
41:04
Speaker 1: Jackson Miller, I planned this? This is why Greg's did right.
41:08
Speaker 1: She's she's not owning it. And another thing that's worth
41:12
Speaker 1: mentioning is that this whole time she said, oh, I
41:15
Speaker 1: didn't make him do it. I didn't convince Billy to
41:18
Speaker 1: do it. He did it himself because I was going
41:20
Speaker 1: to break off the relationship. That's been her excuse ever since.
41:24
Speaker 1: So this is, you know, a very pale pale image
41:31
Speaker 1: of accepting responsibility. Pam Smart behind bars not getting paroled. Now,
41:38
Speaker 1: that's the latest Nancy Grace crime Story, signing off goodbye friend,