Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 361 - Kerry Thornley & The Fair Play For Switzerland Committee

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JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 361 - Kerry Thornley & The Fair Play For Switzerland Committee · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: This is Gary Kanou and the No Caws is Good
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Cano's Show, the only TV Canos program guaranteed to contain
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: no canoos whatsoever. Nothing bad or wrong ever happens on
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: my show. I just got finished saying nothing wrong happens
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: on my show. Shape up, you guys, shape up.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Not rape up.
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: And even if I.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Did say grape up, which I did not, those grapes
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: were coming down, not coming up. I said shape down,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: I mean shape up. Can never mind run the film?
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: I said run, not don.
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: Is up?
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: Thank Joe, b Joe Be spend it from Wee Rave
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: and we stand Joby Frock Conjo, Brad sank Joby, Joey
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: stand it BA and trumb Be stank Joby spy.
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: Show Brady Bye, Sellom Joe kill.
• 1:38
  Speaker 5: We We're surging in the chart, Surgeon in the charts,
• 1:44
  Speaker 5: and here we go.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you, Charlie. What's up? Everybody? Welcome to the Lone
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: Cooming Podcast. This is episode three hundred and sixty one.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: Carrie Wendell Thornley and the Fair Play for Switzerland Committee,
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: which is a real thing in their world. So yeah,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: you strap in. You're in for a wild and crazy show.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: It's all about carry Windle Thornley and Joe is back
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: from vacation. Those of you are not members don't know that,
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: but yeah, he's back. So welcome back, Joe, Thank you, sir,
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: thank you.
• 2:28
  Speaker 6: As our members know, I was pretty jet wagged and
• 2:31
  Speaker 6: not great shape once a day, but we made it
• 2:34
  Speaker 6: through a two hour show a banger, if I must say,
• 2:40
  Speaker 6: and yeah, it was a great trip. I am definitely
• 2:43
  Speaker 6: happy to be back. And you know, sleep cycle is
• 2:46
  Speaker 6: a little not there yet. I'm like up at four
• 2:49
  Speaker 6: or five am every morning now, but it is what
• 2:55
  Speaker 6: it is. But it's definitely good to be back. We
• 2:57
  Speaker 6: obviously recorded show last week a couple of weeks before that,
• 3:03
  Speaker 6: or two or three weeks before that, I believe, So
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  Speaker 6: we hope you enjoyed that show, and I'm happy to
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  Speaker 6: be back with you live.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Well, happy you're back to This would be the first
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: time we've been live on a Friday night in a
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  Speaker 2: couple of weeks, and I hope everybody enjoyed the pre
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: recorded show that we had for you. We figured, you know,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: we try to let some of the dust settle from
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: when they made their their rounds, and it turns out
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: they made him again anyway, But it's all good. I
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: think we did a hell of a good show. Best
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: show that them two have been on. Yeah, as far
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: as informative and entertaining a yeah, which we strive to be.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: So hopefully you were informed and entertained by our show
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: with Andrew and Mark. But tonight it's all about Carrie
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  Speaker 2: Wendell Thornleigh. Joe.
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  Speaker 6: Yes, fascinating dude.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Fascinating dude. And he's one of these type of guys
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: that I struggle a little bit. You know, Is this
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: guy just smarter than everybody else where He's able to
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: like almost to be like almost like a savant. Or
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: did this guy just do too much acid?
• 4:34
  Speaker 6: He did do someone in the sixties to it to
• 4:37
  Speaker 6: his admission, Yes, you know.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: I liken this guy to another figure in this whole
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Kennedy assassination thing. And I think he's a lot like
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: Gordon Ovell, often misunderstood on the fringes, very intelligent and
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: I think you'll glean some of that as we get
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: through this here. But Joe, if you could just welcome
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: to people in and uh, let's say hi to everybody
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: real quick.
• 5:07
  Speaker 6: Yeah, let's do it. Let's see and Double B is
• 5:13
  Speaker 6: the first one that comes up on my chat, although
• 5:15
  Speaker 6: it's there was some people before as I was saying, Hi,
• 5:20
  Speaker 6: ton Yes, hey and slacker down, double B. Good to
• 5:26
  Speaker 6: see you. Yes, always good to see double B. I
• 5:29
  Speaker 6: am not a crackpot, Scott. I love you. Throw that
• 5:33
  Speaker 6: in there, Uh peach kiss sister's kitchen. I ever won
• 5:42
  Speaker 6: Peaches of the House.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Boy, you butchered that and I don't know how you
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: managed to, but you did.
• 5:47
  Speaker 6: Yeah, mister James Smith Thornley's beard designed by David Ferry.
• 5:58
  Speaker 6: Mister Gregory's stewart. Yes, let's go.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: It's a greg.
• 6:04
  Speaker 6: Sir shot a lot. Hello, are all worldwide? And yes,
• 6:09
  Speaker 6: there are people on multiple continents listening live right now.
• 6:13
  Speaker 6: So miss Trey, missus Trey and I are here. We
• 6:18
  Speaker 6: got the missus.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the both of you. Yes, you need to
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: keep training land tonight. Yeah, yep. Rarely does he get
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: out of line. He made it exciting when we talk
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: about Shreveport here and there, but not Shreeport talk tonight.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: So I think you'd be fine.
• 6:35
  Speaker 6: Yes, Paula Jane in the house. Hello, slackered, slackered days,
• 6:45
  Speaker 6: Paul Anicci.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: Paul Aicilenichi.
• 6:52
  Speaker 6: Yeah, my Italian pronounced in the pronunciation hasn't gotten better?
• 6:58
  Speaker 6: Has gotten better since.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: My that's capable.
• 7:03
  Speaker 6: Cammy? Oh la, what's up, buddy?
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: I'm not a cheap what's up?
• 7:08
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's why I said, buddy, I remember this time.
• 7:12
  Speaker 6: Timothy Ryan, Hello, ladies and gents. I hope everyone is
• 7:15
  Speaker 6: doing well tonight. I hope you're doing well too. And uh, yeah,
• 7:22
  Speaker 6: that is it?
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: Cool deal. I'm sure we'll have some straggle ours.
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  Speaker 6: Yes, as always. And uh, of course, best hopes that
• 7:35
  Speaker 6: Tiny will join in in a little bit.
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, she's conspicuously absent.
• 7:40
  Speaker 6: Well right, well, we know she was as we talked
• 7:46
  Speaker 6: on Wednesday. Yeah, recovering from a minor surgery. And I
• 7:52
  Speaker 6: actually sent her an email today and and wished her
• 7:55
  Speaker 6: well and say I hope you're recovering well. And uh
• 8:00
  Speaker 6: and Jack Taylor there he is. He's sliding in sliding
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  Speaker 6: in the d MS.
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  Speaker 2: Hello, sir.
• 8:10
  Speaker 6: I was texting with him too recently.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: So all right, I got a word for you to say, Joe,
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, say Irish wristwatch.
• 8:23
  Speaker 6: Irish wrist watch.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: He thought about it too much, but you did a
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: great job.
• 8:30
  Speaker 6: The ws are like your l's.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: That can mess a lot of people up the old
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: Irish wristwatch.
• 8:43
  Speaker 6: Oh, Sally is on a date night. The double B says, oh, yes, her,
• 8:50
  Speaker 6: uh her, what is it? Bobby Thundernuts right, Oh, Bobby
• 8:55
  Speaker 6: must be in Tawn tearing it up. I believe he
• 8:58
  Speaker 6: moved to Ireland.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: Well, he's a smart man. He would not.
• 9:06
  Speaker 6: Just true, that's true.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: So we hope they uh A, but no excuse not
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: to have a streaming, you know, on your phone up
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: in the up in the corner.
• 9:17
  Speaker 6: In the restaurant, right, there's nothing like a date night
• 9:21
  Speaker 6: with TLG.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: In the corner. Bobby would understand. Yes, just let us
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: watch what all right, Let's get into Cary Wendell Thornley, Joe, because,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: as as I said Wednesday night, I've had one of
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: the foremost experts alive today on Carrie Thornley on my
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: show multiple times. He's written a couple of books about
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: Carrie Wendell Thornley, and we've gotten into some of the
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: more out there are crazier aspects of Carrie Wendell Thornley's life.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: But when it comes to the assassination and I love
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: Adam go rightly by the way, but he's very much
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: and he's come a long way, but he's very much
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: not a Kennedy assassination researcher, if you will, right, so
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: most not your typical right. Yeah, he's into some crazy
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: stuff too, but you know what, one person can only
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: take so much right of the craziness, and he's got
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: enough crazy to deal with on his own. Comes to
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: all the Discordianism and and all of that. But before
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  Speaker 2: we get to all that, let's just figure the basics
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  Speaker 2: out on carry Thornley, because this dude was actually alive
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  Speaker 2: Joe until now eighteen ninety eight when he passed away
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: at age of sixty. He was born in nineteen thirty eight,
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  Speaker 2: so he was about a year older than Oswald, right,
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  Speaker 2: And he wrote a couple of books about Oswald, which
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: I had linked up in the description of this here
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  Speaker 2: video Joe, and they are called, of course, everybody's familiar
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  Speaker 2: with the Idole Warriors, right, yes. Now, what a lot
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: of people don't understand is that when he was called
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  Speaker 2: before the Warren Commission, Carrie Thornley, that is, he told
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  Speaker 2: them that he had begun writing a book about Oswald
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  Speaker 2: before the assassination, and he never published it. And this
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  Speaker 2: is the book, right, so the Warren Commission people or
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  Speaker 2: the FBI, one of the two took his manuscript and
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  Speaker 2: never gave it back to him. Right, So this book
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  Speaker 2: actually was not published until nineteen ninety one with the
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  Speaker 2: help as you can see at the bottom under the
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  Speaker 2: name Carrie Thornley from David Lifton, author of Best Evidence,
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  Speaker 2: and them two were a conversation together. Would have been
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  Speaker 2: a trip as well.
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  Speaker 6: Yes, and this was a fictional portrayal of Oswald, right,
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  Speaker 6: not by name allegedly.
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  Speaker 2: I have not read it.
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  Speaker 6: It's very hard to get is it.
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  Speaker 2: I know it's Amazon. Like I said, the links in
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  Speaker 2: the description twenty bucks. I'm not sure who benefits from
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  Speaker 2: the sale of this thing, but the kid.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, hopefully his come to see.
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  Speaker 2: But yeah, this book wasn't published. They had to get
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  Speaker 2: it from I guess the archives and actually published it
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  Speaker 2: because once they took it from him in the early sixties,
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  Speaker 2: they didn't they never gave it back. And then in
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: nineteen sixty five we go back a little way as
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  Speaker 2: Joe he wrote this book simply called Oswald by Carrie Thornley,
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  Speaker 2: who knew him best and who in nineteen sixty wrote
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  Speaker 2: The Idle Warriors, a novel based upon him. So this
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  Speaker 2: is the book that came out in nineteen sixty five.
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  Speaker 2: And I find it very interesting that the subtitle is
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  Speaker 2: who knew him Best?
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  Speaker 5: Right?
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: Right?
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  Speaker 6: Yeah, because they allegedly only overlapped in Alturo, California for
• 13:55
  Speaker 6: about three months.
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  Speaker 2: Right. But we'll get there. So a little more of
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  Speaker 2: one Carrie Thornley aka Omar kam Ravenhurst, or simply Lord
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: Omar if you will, Joe, that's okay, if you want
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: to call him Lord Omar, okay. He was born actually
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  Speaker 2: in California.
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  Speaker 1: Uh.
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  Speaker 2: He attended the University of Southern California but did not
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: graduate as he was called away, uh to serve right.
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  Speaker 3: Uh.
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  Speaker 2: He was raised as a Mormon, so his ideology shifted
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: a lot as a young man in California.
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  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: And you know, some of the Mormon stuff gets a
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  Speaker 2: little cre crazy, you know, as you by some depending
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: on your degree of you know, how seriously you're into it.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: And I'm not sure how into it his parents were,
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: but he very closely scrutinized throughout his life atheism, anarchism, objectivism,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: o tarchism. He attended something called a Freedom School neo
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: paganism Charista Buddhism and the mimetic inheritor of Discordianism, the
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: Church of the SubGenius Okay, which he created with a
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: buddy of his named Greg Hill, who he went to
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: high school with in California, and it would be a
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: figure in his life in and out of his life
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: for the rest of his life. Another very unique character,
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: Joe Yeah. In nineteen sixty five, Thornley got married to
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: Kara Leach in California. They had one son named Craig Thornley,
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  Speaker 2: and he was born in nineteen sixty nine. They later
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  Speaker 2: divorced though, of course, as most marriages did back then,
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: and Craig was a photographer, a painter, a musician, and
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: a filmmaker in his life. Now, when it comes to
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: Carrie Thornley's military career, excuse me. He was a reservist
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: in the US Marine Corps and had been for about
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: two years when he was summoned to active duty in
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  Speaker 2: nineteen fifty eight at the age of twenty and after
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: completing his freshman year at the University of Southern California.
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  Speaker 2: This is when he was called away and he never
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: went back to college after this.
• 17:01
  Speaker 7: Uh.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: It was it around this time that He and Mal
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: eclipsed the younger or Mal two or Greg Hill if
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: you want to call him. That shared their first auristic
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: vision in a bowling alley in their hometown of Whittier, California,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: aka the first time they probably drop some acid, smoked
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: some weed, drank some beers.
• 17:29
  Speaker 6: Can't blame them for that.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: And you know, and you know, bowling alleys can be enchanting.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: Joe at that tender young age of fucked upness. Yeah,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think what is that ship called
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: now cosmic bowling? But boy, if they did, yeah, back then.
• 17:48
  Speaker 6: Who that would have been fun? And yeah, you know,
• 17:50
  Speaker 6: this is the day before computers iPhones.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: You know, this is what.
• 17:56
  Speaker 6: Young people did then, you know.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, back in the day, we used to actually write
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: down your score as you're bowling. Yeah it's not what screen,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: but they happened, trust me.
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  Speaker 6: So.
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  Speaker 2: In nineteen fifty nine, Carrie Thornley served for a short
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: time at the same radar operator unit as Lee Harvey
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  Speaker 2: Oswald at El Toro in Santa Ana. Both men have
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: shared a common interest in society, culture, counter culture, literature, politics,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: and whenever duty placed them together, they discussed such topics
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: as George Orwell's famous novel nineteen eighty four and the
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: philosophy of Marxism, particularly Oswald's interest in the latter.
• 18:47
  Speaker 6: I believe, I believe Oswalt recommended nineteen eighty four to Thornley.
• 18:55
  Speaker 5: That's what.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And you can see how and you
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: can glean this from Oswald's literary reading list and all
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: the stuff that he was into. You know, it's interesting
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  Speaker 2: because Oswald, like I said, was a year younger than
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: this guy, and they took different paths to the Marine Corps,
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: but once thrown in there together, they were kind of
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: probably both outcasts, if you will, probably not some of
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: the more popular marines. You know, these were guys and enjoyed,
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: you know, intellectual banter and you know, playing chess and
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: talking about weird shit and books. And someone like Oswald
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: would have intrigued Thornley, and somebody like Thornley would have
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: intrigued Oswald for sure. Yeah, because they could discuss with
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: each other, you know, all this weird shit that they
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: were into that not everybody else at the time was into.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: You know, they had probably a mutual admiration for each
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: other as far as their crazy stuff that they were
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: digging right back then. So on a troop ship returning
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: to the United States from duty in Japan, excuse me.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Sometime after the two men parted ways as a result
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: of routine assignments, Thornley read of excuse me, Oswald's autumn
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: nineteen fifty nine defection to the Soviet Union in the
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: US military newspaper The Stars and Stripes. So as Carrie
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Thornley is returning from his active duty assignment overseas and.
• 20:48
  Speaker 6: That sugi, yeah, but not at the same time as Oswald, right, So.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: He reads about Oswald's defection and he's thinking to himself, man,
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: this guy really did it. You know, that's crazy, which
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: of course spurned him to write a book about Oswald
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: because he was so intrigued by this guy's ideals and
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: the fact that he actually followed through with one of
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: his most crazy ideals, and that's the pursuit of Marxism
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: or trying to understand it better, and actually supposedly defected
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: the Russia, although it wasn't a real defection, but it's
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: interesting that the US military paper Stars and Stripes said
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: it was.
• 21:37
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 21:38
  Speaker 6: That is interesting that they would publicize it.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: So in February of nineteen sixty two, Joe Thornley completed
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: the book The Idle Warriors, which had a distinction of
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: being the only book written about Lee Harvey Oswald before
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: the Kennedy assassination took place eighteen sixty three. Due to
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: the serendipitous nature of Thornley's choice of literary subject matter,
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: he was called to testify before the Warren Commission on
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: May eighteenth, nineteen sixty four. The Commission subpoened a copy
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: the only copy of the manuscript, and stored it in
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: the National Archives, and the book remained unpublished there until
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: nineteen and ninety one now, but in nineteen sixty five
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: Thorny published another book simply titled Oswald, generally defending the
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: Oswald as lone assassin conclusion of the Warreck Commission. So
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Thornley was not a conspiracy theorist at this time. That
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: changes as time goes on, but he was. He did
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: testify before the Warren Commission, and they mainly focused on,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: of course, the pre existing relationship prior to the assassination
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: between Thornley and Oswald. They were intrigued that this guy
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: was so taken with Lee Harvey Oswald that he wrote
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: a book about him, they subpoened the manuscript that got it,
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: and they locked it away for thirty some years, which
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: is pretty crazy. Now where the story takes a left turn. Okay,
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: as we move into the mid sixties and Jim Garrison
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: starts his investigation in New Orleans. Now, the reason that
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: this is important is because Carrie Thornley was also in
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: New Orleans in nineteen sixty three and Jim Garrison. Well,
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Thornley was very high on Jim Garrison's radar as far
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: as being somebody that he thought was involved in the
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: assassination somehow as a possible impersonator of Lee Harvey Oswald
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: and contributing to things in that manner. So Thornley was
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: subpoened to appear before the grand jury, where he was
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: questioned about Oswald and his knowledge of other figures Garrison
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: believed to be connected to the assassination. Thornley saw the
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: cancelation of the subpoena on which he had to appear
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: before the Circuit court. Garrison then charged Thornley with perjury
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: after Thornley denied that he had been in contact with
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: Oswald in any manner since nineteen fifty nine. The perjury
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: charge was eventually dropped by Garrison's successor, Harry Connick Jr.
• 25:04
  Speaker 6: Yep. I we'll get into that in a little bit.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: The perjury charge followed Carrie Thornley, who got the hell
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: out of Louisiana and never came back, at least while
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: Garrison was the DA there, and then Harry Knnick, who
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: succeeded him, finally dropped it as it wasn't a serieson
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: of charge where you know, they could pick Thornley up
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: in some other state and extra died him to New
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: Orleans to face this charge. So he just simply did
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: the old CIA technique of waiting it out. Joe, he
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: waited it out.
• 25:47
  Speaker 6: It seems to be a successful strategy and one that
• 25:51
  Speaker 6: they're doing Today's home to this day right now.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: A couple of things about Carrie Thornley in New Orleans.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: There were I won't say a shit ton, but I
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: would say a good handful of witnesses that Garrison was
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: able to find to put Carrie Thornley in certain locations
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: with certain people, possibly in the proximity of Lee Harvey Oswald,
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: or even blatantly in the proximity of Lee Harvey Oswald,
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: which of course Carrie Thornley at the time denied heavily.
• 26:36
  Speaker 6: Yes, yes, And I have some stuff on that and
• 26:42
  Speaker 6: the dates that Thornley was in New Orleans and when
• 26:47
  Speaker 6: Oswalt was in New Orleans, and we can get into that.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Little later in my power point. Yeah. Now, while he's
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: in New Orleans, Carrie Thornley relates the story of run
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: in with some two mysterious men who would come into
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: his life. One was a man by the name of
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: Slim Brooks Joe m h. And this fellow right here
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: be slim Brooks. Right, he looks like he's one beer
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: away from being an alcoholic. But uh, you know again
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: he could possibly be the Oh who was that author
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: John Steinbeck of his time? I mean, who knows? But
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: this guy, uh, slim Brooks, if you will, was what
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: or would become one of Carrie Thornleigh's closest Discordian friend
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: in New Orleans. And the other guy a man he
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: called Gary Kirstein. Now he didn't know who in the
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: hell Gary Kirstein is. It was some guy that would
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: come in and out of his life and tell him
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: weird shit. Right, and later in his life, after the
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: whole Watergate thing, and he saw pictures finally of E
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Howard Hunt. Thornley identified this mysterious Gary Kirstein as being
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: senior CIA officer E Howard Hunt and now Slim Books.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: Slim Brooks was Jerry Milton Brooks now Jerry Milton Brooks.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: Joe is very interesting. Like I said, he would become
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: very close to Thornley, be deep into this Discordian shit.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: But he was also a member of the extreme right
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: wing group the Minutemen, Joe, of which Guy Banister, you know,
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: General Walker and a bunch of other high profile extreme
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: right wingers in New Orleans were members of.
• 29:19
  Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, and that is the big kind of question
• 29:23
  Speaker 6: we're going to try to answers. Did he he was
• 29:29
  Speaker 6: connected to these figures, So how did he not run
• 29:33
  Speaker 6: into Oswalt during the time in New Orleans?
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And oddity Thornley said that was claimed by Kirstein
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: and Brooks is that they accurately predicted Richard Nixon's accession
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: to the presidency six years before it happened. Now, of course,
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: this isn't any type of you know, crazy uh for
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: fore knowledge or prediction. As you know, Nixon had come
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: very close to winning the presidency in nineteen sixties, so
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: it's not out of the realm of possibility that he
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: would eventually, you know, win the Republican National Convention and
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: going to become the president. So it's not a crazy,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: crazy thing because actually Richard Nixon was from the same
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: hometown as Carrie Thornley and only a couple of years
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: ahead of him in high school. They went to the
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: same high school.
• 30:33
  Speaker 6: Really, yeah, they're there at the same time.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: Well no not, I'm sorry, not at the same time.
• 30:39
  Speaker 6: But he wasn't a senior freshman. No, no, okay, no,
• 30:45
  Speaker 6: Nixon was much older.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Nixon was much older, but they were in the same hometown,
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: same Alma Matter High school as Thornley and Greg Hill.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: So that's pretty crazy.
• 31:00
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's interesting.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: They also accurately predicted this due of Kirstine and Brooks.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: The rise of the counter culture and the subsequent emergence
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: of cult leader Charles Manson and what became his cult
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: following this led Thornley to believe that the US government
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: had somehow been involved directly or indirectly and creating and
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: or supporting these events, personages, and phenomenon. After Shaw was acquitted,
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: Thornley said he wanted Garrison to bring him to trial
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: in order to clear his name. But of course that
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: did not happen, did not happen, so some more excuse me,
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: God damn killing me.
• 31:52
  Speaker 6: So it's okay, man, I've had like the bad case
• 31:55
  Speaker 6: of hiccups for like weeks.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: Now I'm not.
• 32:00
  Speaker 6: I know you don't have pickups, but.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: I've got the purpi burps.
• 32:04
  Speaker 6: I feel you.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: Some of the other names and self awarded titles provided
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: by carry himself on the role of Pope of the
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: Discordian Society in an affidavit to the California School Employees
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: Association or a legal case concerning a member of the
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: society that refused to join the cs EA, alleging that
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: the Discordian religion forbade him from doing so. So again,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: they viewed Discordianism as a religion, not necessarily a doctrine,
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: if you will, somewhat on the lines of scientology, but
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: equally as weird as silentology. Right, instead of aliens and
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: e meters and paying your way to the higher ranks,
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: this is simply a belief in what most people would
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: call whimsical fantasy. Right. M. Kerry Thornley also went by
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: the name the Grand ballely Who of Egypt, of the
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: Orthodox Discordian Society, the Grand bally Who. Joe m uh
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: of course Omar Kayam or Ravenhurst or Lord Lord Omar
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: or Lord Ravenhurst. He was also the president of the
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: fair Play for Switzerland Committee.
• 33:39
  Speaker 6: Joe, Yes, it's a new one to me.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it existed. Uh, I'm not sure, uh in
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: what capacity it existed?
• 33:55
  Speaker 6: Yeah, what was the purpose of that?
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: But it existed on paper or in throw only his
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: mind somehow. I'm sure. You know, this is the type
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: of stuff that you know, somebody that's either brilliant or
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: way fucked up. It's just and would you be funny?
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: You know, remember how Lee Oswald had a fair Play
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: for Cubite committee. Man. You know what if it made
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: like fair play if you Switzerland committee man, like they're
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: all neutral and shit, but it'd be kind of cool, right.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: They got cool shit over there, hot blondes, you know,
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: good skiing, beautiful scenery.
• 34:35
  Speaker 6: That's it.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: You know we should support that. Let's make it.
• 34:37
  Speaker 6: You know, I could say, yes, Center for International Banking. Yeah,
• 34:45
  Speaker 6: I could see that being the case. I definitely can.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: He was also known as the Reverend Doctor Jesse sump Joe.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: He was also known as the Ancient and abbreviated Caliph
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: of Cali or Caliph of California, the Sinister Minister of
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: the first Evangelical and Unrepentant Church of No Faith. There's
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: a title for you. He was also known as Ho
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Chiesezen aka the Fifth Deally Llama, not the Dalary Lima,
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: but the Fifth Deally like Daily Plaza Lama. He was
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: also known as the Purple Sage, a name that he
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: called himself before the band New Writers of the Purple
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Sage was formed. I don't know if that the name
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: of that band was a callback to Carrie Thornley and
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: his visions or what was going on back then, but
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: again you have to remember. And the New Writers of
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: the Purple Sage was a early late sixties early seventies
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: is kind of supergroup if you will. Jerry Garcia used
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: to play with other members that the said would step
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: in from time to times. Yeah.
• 36:13
  Speaker 6: Cool.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: There would be like a co mingling of different artists
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: from different bands. They would come together and they put
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: out a couple of albums. I actually have some on
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: vinyl upstairs. Very cool stuff. A lot of steel guitar
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: pedal steel guitar type stuff that Garcia was doing with them.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: He was also excuse me, as the Pope, as he's
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: been called, excuse me. I further declare that there is
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: no truth whatsoever to the charge that carry Wendell Thornley
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: is a fictitious identity created by the Warren Commission for
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: its own mysterious purposes. And that is something he actually
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: said to the Warren Commission. In Volume eleven, page eighty,
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: he says, I further declare that there's no truth whatsoever
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: to the charge that carry Wendell Thornley is a fictitious
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: identity created by the Warret Commission for his own mysterious purposes.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Now why he said that to the Warrant Commission, I
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: have no idea. But again, remember who we're dealing with here, folks,
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: somebody that is out there, right, I mean, these tight
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: ass lawyers on the Warren Commission were probably thinking like,
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: who is this guy? You know, which, of course was
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: a good technique. You know, if you didn't want to
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: be messed with you sometimes people would make themselves look
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: crazy Joe, so people would stop messing with him or
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: questioning him, or think that they had anything to do
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: with anything, Like you know, this guy is so he's
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: so off his rocker, there's no way he could be
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: involved in all this crazy shit, right and so is
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: that the facilt he's trying to portray or was he
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: just this way? It gets crazy? Now back to back
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: to Slim Brooks real quick, Joe, before we get too
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: far in the in the in the weeds here and
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: you saw it as part of the cover art. Take
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: another look at this facetious harbor right now. Let's get
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: all the other bullshit off of here. And you can
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: see here at the bottom where there's a stamp that
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: says the Official Discordian Society right now, to the left
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: of it, right under the word facetious, it says, by
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: are our Brooks? You see that I do right under
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: the US Yeah, reproduced and wrint by rent hand or
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: right hand. Okay, uh, this is the official Discordian issue
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: number zero zero zero right now. A lot of these
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: guys back then would make these things called zines, which
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: were basically self published magazines. They generally, if they did
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: sell for money, they didn't sell for a lot. Maybe
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: you know penny a copy or a nickel or copy
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: or most of them were just handed out or passed
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: out or you know whatever. But these guys would put
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: out these zines and it's they're just ridiculous, is all
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: get out if you really read, start reading some of
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: the shit. Right this is Roger Wilco's radio station, k
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: U R k.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: R U D crud.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: You know there's Ennsville underline here all the way on
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: the left, very poor farmland.
• 40:09
  Speaker 6: I saw that.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: The Watson Canal, the Elementary Watson Canal like elementary, my
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: dear Watson, but it's elementary Watson Canal. And then right
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: to the right of that it says very good anchorage,
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: and underneath that it says do not anchor here either.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: You know, this is just crazy stuff like there's last Street.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: There's a dead end house.
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: All the way on the right you have barefoot BALI
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: whatever the hell that is back back front, upper back, bottom,
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: back back, upper bone, back upper. But I don't know
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: what's going on here on some of this stuff.
• 40:57
  Speaker 6: Were they were they dosing out during this, do you think? Yeah?
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: And at the very top of this you see a
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: parent parentheses for submarines only. Right now, this is just
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: part of a much bigger picture, Joe, This is what
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: the picture actually looks like, so you can kind of
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: see how LSD works. You can kind of see the
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: image if you will. Do you see it, Joe, of
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: a man with the nose, the eyes, the chin, the head,
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: the arm, the hand.
• 41:40
  Speaker 6: I'm trying to step back from it, but yes, yes, right, vaguely.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: Right. So let's see. This is a closer up picture
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: of the top of the head. And you can actually
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: read a little bit more here, like you can hang
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: out in monotony mono to not to need Bay but
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: not to not in Need Bay, and even marked a
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: wreck of the USS Unconstitutional is right there in that water,
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: another wreck of the HMS Ineptitude of sixteen thirty eight.
• 42:21
  Speaker 6: Is that a real shipwreck?
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: You think?
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: No?
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: No, okay, okay, he's making fun.
• 42:26
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: There's a former site of something or other towards the top,
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: and right here above the fingers on the left, it
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: says the headquarters in exile of the Discordian Society, you know,
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: kind of making fun of the Cuban headquarters in exile.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: But this was a very stylized map of part of
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: New Orleans. And right on to the blue stamps where
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: this is this his Hickory and Dickory dock area?
• 43:06
  Speaker 6: Mm hmm.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: And all the way on the left the Virgin forest
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: or the who would the.
• 43:14
  Speaker 6: Virgin question mark forest? I guess they weren't sure about that.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: There's a high water line marks through it, uh the
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: marginal land political boundary of demarcation. So you can see
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: these guys are all over the place, you know, and
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: it's it's all right, it's all just out there ship, right,
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, who would take time to make a drawing
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: like this? It means nothing.
• 43:54
  Speaker 6: Oh I could really see it now. You can see
• 43:56
  Speaker 6: the nose right at the right of the the hand
• 44:01
  Speaker 6: of the thumb right right, I see it better know.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: But this is the kind of ship that they laughed
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: at that they got into, like who could do the
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: most outland as ship? Like I'm sure Thornley was like, man,
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: that's great, that's great, great, great, great Slim, that's awesome.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: And of course this is Slim Brooks. This is the
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: guy who drew this right crazy craziness and even called it,
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: you know, facetious harbor Discordianism, and uh yeah, this is
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: evident from you know, the time Perio than when when
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: Thornley was in New Orleans. So with that, he said, jo,
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna hand it over to you into some more
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: of this stuff. Sure if you get that.
• 44:55
  Speaker 6: Off the screen there, well get the horn ready, h
• 44:59
  Speaker 6: oh double b WHOA learning a lot, gentlemen, best podcast show.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: Period, Thank you very much and thank you Brandon.
• 45:13
  Speaker 6: On top of that, he gifted five.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: Who got him, Joe who got him, Spook.
• 45:23
  Speaker 6: Level memberships we got, Tony Holman got one, mister James King,
• 45:29
  Speaker 6: mister Dean Walker, Dave Sparks, and Packer Jack.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, as you.
• 45:43
  Speaker 6: How's it going, sir? And yeah, that is for sure.
• 45:50
  Speaker 6: I had a couple thank you for Brandon a lot.
• 45:53
  Speaker 6: We appreciate that. As you know, I had a couple
• 45:56
  Speaker 6: of start comments before I start my famous power representation.
• 46:01
  Speaker 6: Timothy Ryan, I don't think Carrie had any connection to
• 46:04
  Speaker 6: JFK murderer. In my honest opinion, I don't know. I
• 46:09
  Speaker 6: don't either, But.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: As I said in the description to this video, the
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: coincidence is with this guy. It's either just serendipitous coincidence
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: that this guy's in all the same places as Lee
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: Harvey Oswald, including the Marine Corps at SUGI, the Marine
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: Corps which I think already said, Yeah, Marine Corps and
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: Sugi New Orleans and the book and oh, by the way,
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: this guy also went to Mexico City in nineteen sixty
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: three as well.
• 46:49
  Speaker 6: Yes, yes, I have some stuff from that as well.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So is this all just serendipitous coincidence or is
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: this the guy is heiress of Chaos and Discordianism fucking
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: with us? Yes, I like to think it's the latter.
• 47:09
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I think so too, But dare you heiress? James said, ooh,
• 47:16
  Speaker 6: I'd like to hear a full book review talking about
• 47:19
  Speaker 6: idol warriors.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: That's not a bad idea, never read it.
• 47:27
  Speaker 6: Just a correction. Thornley was not a part founder of Discordionism,
• 47:34
  Speaker 6: not the SubGenius parody religion. Yeah, he was a co
• 47:40
  Speaker 6: founder of it, He wasn't the founder, although.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: He is kind of well I think, I said to
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: him and Greg Hill, Yeah, Scordianism, Yeah, I think he's genius.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: Is of course something that happens a little later.
• 47:55
  Speaker 6: Yeah, Scott had to go out to dinner. No, but
• 48:01
  Speaker 6: we'll pick up the rest on the replay crew, and
• 48:04
  Speaker 6: we appreciate that. Sally came in. Oh and after her
• 48:11
  Speaker 6: date night is ended. I guess she's like five hours
• 48:13
  Speaker 6: ahead of us. She said, yeah, good, not much to
• 48:16
  Speaker 6: do around here, so I just went for our Ruby Murray,
• 48:18
  Speaker 6: which is curry, which is Kockney slang, and a few drinks. Well,
• 48:25
  Speaker 6: I hope you enjoyed, Sally, and thank you for joining us.
• 48:27
  Speaker 6: We were joking before you came on that you should
• 48:31
  Speaker 6: have had you should have had us on the phone
• 48:34
  Speaker 6: at the restaurant on and Timothy Ryan ridiculous total acid scuffos.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: Again a possibility, you know, very possible possibility. These guys
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: drop way too much acid and it fucked them up. Yeah,
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: for life, like crucial doses.
• 49:00
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yep, yep. Also turn Turn came in.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: A little late level dosing.
• 49:09
  Speaker 6: Yeah yeah. And I feel like it was much stronger
• 49:14
  Speaker 6: back in the sixties than it is today type of thing.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: And yeah, so.
• 49:26
  Speaker 6: Let me get into some of this. So I'm going
• 49:29
  Speaker 6: to go chronologically like I like to, and we are
• 49:40
  Speaker 6: going to start, and I didn't want to. You know,
• 49:43
  Speaker 6: his Warren Commission is like thirty three pages and it
• 49:45
  Speaker 6: doesn't get into almost anything in regards to New Orleans.
• 49:51
  Speaker 6: So I didn't want to waste too much time on that.
• 49:53
  Speaker 6: I have much more on his Garrison Grand Jury deposition.
• 49:57
  Speaker 6: But the one thing I do have on mister Jenner,
• 50:03
  Speaker 6: who was who interviewed Thornley? Did you ever, excuse me,
• 50:07
  Speaker 6: do you recall being interviewed by the agent of the FBI. Yes, sir,
• 50:11
  Speaker 6: this was in New Orleans on Monday the twenty fifth.
• 50:15
  Speaker 6: This was on the afternoon. Does he have the time down?
• 50:19
  Speaker 6: Twenty fifth of November? Mister Jenner says Thornley. That was
• 50:23
  Speaker 6: the Secret Service, wasn't it. Let's see twenty second, twenty third,
• 50:26
  Speaker 6: twenty fourth. He's counting.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Now, this is crazy, though, I mean, he legit was
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: interviewed by the FBI on November twenty fifth.
• 50:41
  Speaker 6: And I could not find that row.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: I looked up. I got it. Oh, I happen to
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: have it, all right, I'll stop sharing the uh, let
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: me find it here, little Jameson, keep going. I gotta
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: I gotta download it from my drive, Okay, but yeah,
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: keep going.
• 51:06
  Speaker 6: Sure. So his Warren Commission testimony was on let's see,
• 51:20
  Speaker 6: what was the date of it, May eighteenth, nineteen sixty four.
• 51:25
  Speaker 6: So this is from the Key Persons Report of the
• 51:33
  Speaker 6: Warren Commission, May twenty seventh, and to mister Melvin Eisenberg
• 51:43
  Speaker 6: from mister Albert Jenner, Junior Rep. Carol Kerry Wendell Thorntonley,
• 51:48
  Speaker 6: delivered herewith are the originals of the three Thornley exhibits.
• 51:54
  Speaker 6: Exhibit number one is to be printed. Exhibits number two
• 51:58
  Speaker 6: and three are not to be print. They are Exhibit
• 52:02
  Speaker 6: number two. This is an it looks like Autobiographer, but
• 52:07
  Speaker 6: auto is crossed out biographical novel written by Thornley, in
• 52:16
  Speaker 6: which the central character is one Johnny Shelburne, a mythical
• 52:21
  Speaker 6: marine whose inspiration was Lee Harvey Oswalt. The novel was
• 52:26
  Speaker 6: completed in February nineteen sixty two. It is unpublished. Thornley
• 52:33
  Speaker 6: testified that the evidence given by him on his deposition
• 52:37
  Speaker 6: covered fully, adequately and factually Thornley's contacts with and views
• 52:44
  Speaker 6: concerning Oswalt, and that therefore it appeared to him that
• 52:47
  Speaker 6: there was nothing in the book that had not already
• 52:50
  Speaker 6: been placed in the record in the course of his deposition,
• 52:54
  Speaker 6: in so far as concerned any issue involving Oswalt being
• 52:59
  Speaker 6: investigated by the Commission. Exhibit number three. This is an
• 53:04
  Speaker 6: incomplete novelette which Thornley completed writing after the assassination Johnny
• 53:12
  Speaker 6: Shelburne is its central character again, and Thornley, in his
• 53:16
  Speaker 6: testimony likened the fictional character to Oswald, but stated frankly
• 53:21
  Speaker 6: that Exhibit number three is so completely fictional and imaginative
• 53:26
  Speaker 6: that it did not, in his opinion, merit study by
• 53:30
  Speaker 6: the Commission or Commission staff. Exhibits number two and three
• 53:35
  Speaker 6: did not come into our possession until the date mister
• 53:39
  Speaker 6: Thornley's deposition was taken. So I guess you burnt up
• 53:42
  Speaker 6: with him, is my guess. In as much as they
• 53:45
  Speaker 6: are lengthy documents, especially Thornley Exhibit number two, I did
• 53:49
  Speaker 6: not have an opportunity to do more than identify them
• 53:54
  Speaker 6: in the record. I have read each of them since
• 53:57
  Speaker 6: that time. I'm of the opinion that the aspects of
• 54:01
  Speaker 6: Thornley Exhibit number two pertinent to our investigation, were fully
• 54:07
  Speaker 6: brought out in the course of Thornley's deposition to the
• 54:10
  Speaker 6: Warrant Commission, and that we should not print that exhibit.
• 54:15
  Speaker 6: So that's interesting. Yeah, So let's and I have a
• 54:22
  Speaker 6: little clip here. This is from Spartacus. This is from
• 54:25
  Speaker 6: his nineteen sixty five I'm not sure if it was
• 54:28
  Speaker 6: a I think it was more of a memoir than
• 54:31
  Speaker 6: a book on Oswald that you referenced earlier, but this
• 54:35
  Speaker 6: is a little clip from it. When news of Oswald
• 54:39
  Speaker 6: first began to appear, I wondered how any man could
• 54:42
  Speaker 6: have changed so thoroughly in a few short years. A
• 54:45
  Speaker 6: national news magazine called him a psychopath, schizoid, a paranoid,
• 54:51
  Speaker 6: and probable homosexual, all in the same single column of print.
• 54:56
  Speaker 6: Suddenly I was reading that he was constantly fighting with
• 54:59
  Speaker 6: his fellow marine, and that in the service he displayed
• 55:03
  Speaker 6: conspicuous conspicuous yes, yeah, for physical violence. I observed no
• 55:11
  Speaker 6: such traits in Oswald. That an appendix of the war
• 55:15
  Speaker 6: report had to be devoted to speculation and rumors, in
• 55:18
  Speaker 6: my mind, argument enough that a good deal of fabrication
• 55:22
  Speaker 6: and exaggeration was involved somewhere along the line. Well Oswald
• 55:27
  Speaker 6: had his psychological problems. I doubt he would have been
• 55:31
  Speaker 6: found legally insane had he lived to face a jury.
• 55:37
  Speaker 6: I don't think so either.
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: All right, Joe, I got the documents ready to go
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: here if you want to real quick, yeah, let's do it.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: Let me share me screen. Here here we go. November
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: twenty fifth, nineteen sixty three. Mister Carrie Wendell Thornley, who
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: lived on the same street as Clay Shaw, Dauphine Street,
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: I believe maybe five blocks down.
• 56:14
  Speaker 6: Yeah, Garrison did ask him about this, because.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: I believe Shaw lived in at thirteen thirteen Dauphine Street,
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: and he's at eighteen twenty four Dauphine Street, which by
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: the way, is right in the middle of downtown New
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: Orleans in the French Quarter where all the fuckery happens.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: He was working at r No's restaurant right. He advised
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: that he knew Lee Harvey Oswald for a period of
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: three or four months in nineteen fifty nine when they
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: were He advised Oswald was a quote lone wolf type
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: of individual who never associated with other members of the
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: Marine Corps and had very few close friends on the
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: marine base. He never heard Oswald discuss anything about his
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: background or his family, and believed that at the time
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: Oswald was single. He stated Oswald did express admiration for
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: the Soviet form of government and that he speaks Russian.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: He was of the opinion that Oswald took Russian lessons
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: in Japan during the time he was stationed there with
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: the Marine Corps. He also said that he never heard
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: Oswald mention anything about going to Russia. Sorry, tricky rucker
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: finger there the only stated he believed.
• 57:39
  Speaker 6: Wait wait, can I stop you?
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 57:42
  Speaker 6: He mentioned he had no knowledge of Oswald going to
• 57:48
  Speaker 6: Russia at that point after the assassination, when he later
• 57:53
  Speaker 6: admitted that he read it in the Stars and Stripes
• 57:56
  Speaker 6: magazine on his way back from No.
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: No, Oswald didn't tell him that he had any plans
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: of going to Russia. I see, I see prior to
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: him going, thank you. Thorntley stated that he believed that
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: Oswald was a marksman in the use of firearms while
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: stationed at El Toro, which is the lowest of the
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: three firearms designations, they being namely marksman than sharpshooter, then expert.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: He stated that he had heard from an unrecalled source
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: that Oswald had taken firearms training from a private gun club.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: He did not know the location of the gun club.
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: Thornley stated that his association with Oswald was suddenly terminated
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: as a marine base when one day he told Oswald
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: that he was a quote communist and that things would
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: be different when the revolution came. He stated that Oswald
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: made the comment, not you too and turned around and left.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: Oswald never associated with him or talked to him after
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: this incident, so that's interesting. And there was a buzz
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: set who was in the same outfit as a marine
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: base as Oswald and stated by Thornley as an individual
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: possibly having information regarding Oswald and his background. He stated
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: that Simcoe lived either on Wayfield Street in Orange, California,
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: and that he's listed in the phone book. Basically, Thornley
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: says that he left New Orleans on May one, nineteen
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: sixty three, and went back to Whittier, California, where he
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: visited his parents for a short time, and then proceeded
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: by bus to Tijuana, Mexico and Mexico City, where he
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: stayed for a short period of time and returned to
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: the United States by bus through Matamorris, Mexico, which is
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: opposite Brownsville, Texas, and he returned to New Orleans by
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: bus and arrived in New Orleans on August the first,
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: nineteen sixty three. He stated that he made this by himself.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: Is any of the sounded familiar to anybody out there
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: by the way, he made this trip by himself by
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: bus and uh emphatically denied these charges. He emphatically denied
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: that Oswald had had accompanied him from New Orleans to
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: California or from California to Mexico. He advised he did
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: not know Oswald was in New Orleans in the early
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: part of sixty three, and that Oswald had never contacted
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: him or attempted to contact him when he was in
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: New Orleans.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 6: Do you find it weird that he used the exact
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 6: same terms as Oswalt as.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I do, I do. And you got to remember,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: this is the day after. This is the day after
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: Oswald is shot and killed in Dallas, right the Monday, Yeah, right.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: And so then they talked to him again on the
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: twenty seventh. And I don't know why, I guess to
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: nail down further details because the first interview was done
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: by Merwin Alderson and John Ferrell, but apparently they didn't
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: do a good job. So they send in the big dogs, Joe.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: They send in Regis Kennedy and Claude Schlager for the
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: second interview, and their summation is much longer. They obtained
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: photographs of Thornley, his Marine Corps information and all of that. Now,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: the Secret Service also interviewed Lee Harvey or not, Lee
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: Harvey Arsol Kerry Thornley. Yea, but this occurred the day before,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: excuse me, the day before Oswald is shot, the Saturday Wow,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: which is why there was some confusion from Carrie Thornley's
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: Morning Commission testimony as to who interviewed him first. It
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: was actually the Secret Service.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 6: And crazy that they were on it, what within twenty
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 6: four hours?
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course it's our boy, you know if you
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: look there, Joe the specializing in charge, John Rice. Oh,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: it was the big swinging dick of the Secret Service
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: Treasury Department in New Orleans. That's the guy that also
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: went after shit. Was it Jack Jack W Martin before
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: Oswald had even been arrested.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 6: Yes, it was Jack W. Yes, Yes, yes, the one
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 6: like a couple hours like West or something.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: So John Rice and the Secret Service obviously we're getting
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: some very inside information from somebody. So when it comes
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: to Thornley and the Secret Service says. At seven thirty
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: pm on November twenty third, a long distance telephone call
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: was received from Robert Stewart of Dallas, requesting that Carrie Thornley,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: a white male aged twenty four, a waiter who resides
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: at eighteen twenty four, Dauphine Street be interviewed. He advised
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: that Thornley served in the Marine Corps with Oswald and
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: El Toro, and that he had been in Mexico recently.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: Inquiries of Dauphine Street by special agents Anthony Corretz and
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: aj Vile during the evening of eleven twenty three, sixty
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: three disclosed that Carrie Thornley had been reading or residing
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: sorry at that address for only approximately two weeks. He
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: was reported to be a waiter at an unidentified restaurant
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: in New Orleans, and Where's a Tuxedo Went? Working canvas
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: of numerous restaurants finally disclosed that Thornley has presently employed
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: at Our Nose Restaurant on Bienville Street, where he was
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: interviewed during the late evening by special agents Garrets and Rice.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: Thornley advised that he had served with Oswald and the
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: Marine Air Control Squadron Number nine at El Toro Marine
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: Base in Santa Ana for a few months during the
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: early part of fifty nine. He said that Oswald was
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: very intelligent and extremely well read, that he speaks Russian
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: and which he understands he had learned while stationed in Japan, right,
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: and it goes on that he said he never heard
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: the name aj Hadel and did not know if Oswald
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: had used that name as an alias. Thornley further advised
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: that he had written a draft of a novel, the
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: principal character being a former marine who defected to Russia.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: He said that he had considered loading up Oswald or
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: looking up Oswald in order to obtain information concerning his
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: experiences in Russia as material for the final chapter of
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: the novel, but that he had not done so. Thornley
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: was questioned concerning his visit to Mexico. He said that
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: he left New Orleans in May of sixty three and
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: went to the home of his parents in Whittier, California.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: That he stayed in Whittier in Vicinity and returned to
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: New Orleans by bus via mex And he said that
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: in Mexico in approximately six days, three days in Mexico
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: City on a sightseeing tour. He indicated that he knew
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: nothing about Oswald having been in Mexico as well. So
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: again this is the Secret Service was on this motherfucker
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: the day after the assassination.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's crazy, and you have to think that that's
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 6: the first marine colleague of Oswalt that they interviewed. Right.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: Hey, I had to be on a tip, like you know,
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: from another Secret Service officer out of Dallas. This is
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: a day you need to find this guy in interview him.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: Like where'd that information come from?
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 6: That's what I was just about to ask you. I
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 6: have no idea.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know the answer to that. There's nothing
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: earlier than that. Here we jumped to this member first.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: They reinterview him as well. And like I said, these
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: are just documents on tope of documents on top of
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: documents that we just don't have time to go through
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: here and twenty pages of documents and warrant commissioned testimony
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: as you can see. And it was deemed confidential when
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: they did it, as you can see going through here.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: And that's where you signed carry Wendell Thornley. So very
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: interesting stuff there. Wow, that's what I'm saying. Either, you know,
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: this guy's parallel life to Oswald is crazy. And the
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: fact that why, out of all the places in America
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: to move to and start a life, out of all
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: the places in America, you choose.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 6: New Orleans right when you're from California.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: You're from California. I don't know the answer to that.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 6: It's it's strange how how their journeys intersected, for sure, you.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: Know, and could carry Wendell Thornley possibly have been some
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: of these second Oswald's sightings. Could he have been tasked
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: to use that name as an alias? I don't know.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think at one of the printing companies,
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: Wiseberg showed him a picture of Thornley and they identified
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: him as the guy that picked the picked the the
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: flyers up, which is interesting. I don't know what it means,
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: but they identified Thornley's picture and not Oswad. But this
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: is why Garrison had such a heart on for Carrie Thornley.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and that's a great segue because we are going
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 6: to now get into the Orleans Parish Grand Jury testimony
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 6: of mister Thornley on February eighth, nineteen sixty eight. Present
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 6: mister Jim Garrison, mister James Alcock, Richard Burns, Alvin Osser,
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 6: Andrew Sciambra, and yeah, and other members of the Orleans
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 6: Parish Grand Jury who will ask some questions here. So
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 6: this is you know, it's ninety six pages. This this
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 6: this deposition here, so I kind of just cropped out
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 6: some of the stuff I found most interesting. He goes, Now,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 6: very gradually Oswald came to my I don't know, I
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 6: remember the first time I actually was introduced to him.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 6: He was just very gradually came into my consciousness as
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 6: someone in the outfit that I knew. And whether he
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 6: knew me right away, I don't know. He kind of
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 6: stood out because he was always getting into trouble, and
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 6: a lot of it was he would attract suspicion to
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 6: himself almost deliberately. You would feel that it must have
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 6: been deliberately. You would get into trouble, and then he
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 6: would complain about it, and he would feel that he
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 6: was being picked on for trouble. He got into it,
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 6: and in the meantime he would be innocent, but he
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 6: would manage to make them think he had done something
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 6: by behaving suspiciously. So that sounds like Oswald. I think
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 6: he got that right. So going a little bit ahead.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: And ski Brah.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 6: In other words, at the time he went to Atsugi,
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 6: Oswalt was about to get a discharge. Yes, and most
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 6: of the guys in nine and that's that marine. The
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 6: MS unit nine, right, I had come back from the
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 6: Far East. It was kind of a receiving company. Did
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 6: you ever ask Oswalt how he came to learn Russian? No?
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 6: Did he ever mention about studying Russian at Atsugi?
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 6: Because Russian? Oswalt had coming back for Matt Sugi. Right,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 6: he had been in Atsugi. Ready, he's back in California
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 6: and Thornley is in Al Toro with Oswalt, and then
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 6: he later goes to Atsugi. Answer. No, the science statement
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 6: I filled out on the subject is strictly on the
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 6: basis of my own experience. Thornley says, I don't know.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 6: I never asked him where he learned it. We never
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 6: discussed things like that. We discussed capitalism, communism, Marine Corps,
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 6: atheist atheism versus the guys who were trying to convert
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 6: to us, the US Marine Corps. I think, would you
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 6: say Oswalt was an intelligent person? Yes, very intelligent. I
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 6: disagreed with him about a lot of things, but I
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 6: thought he was very intelligent. Isn't it contrary or contradictory
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 6: for a person intelligent enough to learn a difficult language
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 6: could be such a goof off? No, because I am
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 6: very much the same as Oswalt in a lot of ways,
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 6: Thortley says, and when I wrote my book, I felt
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 6: that I understood him because I was a lot like
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 6: him in a lot of ways. One of the things like,
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 6: when I went overseas, by the time I was ready
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 6: to come back, I was practically ready to join the
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 6: Communist Party, which is an interesting statement because later he's
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 6: kind of like, of course, Discordianism, but also described as
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 6: like a libertarian and somewhere on the right. So I
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 6: think his ideologies changed over time. Thornly, This is a
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 6: juror asking a question here. When did you find out
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 6: about Oswalt going to the Russians? Page three of the
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 6: Stars and Stripes. Just after he did it, there was
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 6: an article here about Lee h Oswalt, and I think
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 6: it was the h I remembered him as Lee h Oswalt.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 6: I didn't know his old name was Harvey, which is
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 6: what they started calling him. How did you know he
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 6: came back? My folks sent me a clipping from Los
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 6: Angeles Times about an ex marine loses love for Russia.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 6: And I was living in New Orleans at that time,
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 6: and I got this clipping and he was going to
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 6: be in Dallas. So I wrote my folks and said
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 6: I think I will go visit him sometime because I
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 6: had written Idle Warrior and I had something else that
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 6: was a Rolland when did you leave for California? I
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 6: left New Orleans and did not get off the bus
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 6: all the way out.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: I went.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 6: Continental trailways, and as I was going along the Mexican
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 6: California border from Yuma, Arizona to San Diego, I saw fireworks.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 6: I knew it was the fifth of May. I figured
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 6: their Independence day whatever, that is the fifth. So that's
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 6: how he too, Yes, yes, fifth of May sixty three, Yes,
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 6: I right in that thing, So stop there. So Oswalt
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 6: goes to.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 5: New Orleans.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 6: End of April ish, right after the Walker shooting, two
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 6: weeks after something like that, allegedly allegedly. Yeah, yes, we
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 6: might have more than that. And this this is when
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 6: Thornley is kind of leaving. So there wouldn't be much
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 6: time for overlap here, according to him, but.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: At least a month, maybe a month, a couple weeks overlap.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 6: A couple weeks. I'd say, yeah, I read question I
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 6: read in that thing you gave me yesterday that you
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 6: wrote for Ramparts magazine. You went to California by way
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 6: of Dallas, Texas? Right, Yes, did you stop off of
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 6: Dallas at that time? No? How long did you stay
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 6: in California before you returned to New Orleans? Thornley?
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 6: Now, I was sitting on a bus coming up from
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 6: Mexico City, and I had come back by way of
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 6: Mexico City and that stopped for approximately a week. I
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 6: had one hundred dollars extra with me because I had
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 6: loan seventy five dollars. I think it was to Vic Latham,
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 6: and he would be paying me back for that. And
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 6: I made and I had made a lot of money
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 6: in California waiting tables, more than I had made in
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 6: New Orleans. There was a lot more business, bigger restaurants,
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 6: and so I used the extra money as I knew
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 6: I would have money waiting for me here. And I
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 6: used the extra money to go to Mexico City, as
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 6: I had always wanted to go there ever since I
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 6: began to study Spanish, and I expected Mexico City to
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 6: be like Manila, but it wasn't. I was disappointed. But
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 6: as I was coming up on the bus, I was
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 6: sitting on the bus, and I wrote this thing in
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 6: my notebook and it was dated September second. So I
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 6: was on the bus coming back from Mexico City to
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 6: Montremores on September second. So Oswalt left New Orleans end
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 6: of September issue, right, So again there's not a ton
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 6: you have about a month here, right of possible overlap.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 6: It's not that they were there the whole time together.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: But now you have thrown the contradicting himself from earlier,
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: as he said he was back in New Orleans on
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: August to first, and now that's true. Let's leaving Mexico
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: City on the September second.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a really good point. That's a really good point.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 6: And I had not seen that. I couldn't find that document.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 6: I'm very glad you did. But yeah, that would have
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 6: had two months of overlap, and of course the month
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 6: that Oswalt was most active in New Orleans, right, which
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 6: would been August nineteen sixty three. So, and as we
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 6: read this, after, I'm going to read Garrison's press release
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 6: on his indictment of perjury. So try to keep in
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 6: mind what Garrison and his investigators would have noticed in
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 6: Thornley's testimony here that would have made them so so
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 6: would have made them charge Thornley with perjury, right, And
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 6: that's what I was kind of thinking as I read
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 6: through this. So you arrived back in New Orleans around
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 6: September fourth, I imagine, yes, did you at that time
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 6: have occasion to hear about Oswalt being in that city? No,
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 6: Thornley says, I did not hear about Oswald until after
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 6: the assassination. And if I had known Oswald had been
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 6: in the city, believe me, I would have gotten in
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 6: a squabble with this waitress in the Kennedy bit. Who
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 6: is he talking about?
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: There are some points on with like I believe her
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 2: name is Sandra Moffatt, who put Oswald and Thrownlee together
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: in one of these bars, and they were talking about,
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: you know, Cuba and Kennedy. This is of course all
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: pre assassination stuff.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 6: But okay, yeah, I actually have another woman that Barbara Reid,
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 6: that that also a Discordian member, ironically, that.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: It might have been Barbara Reid. I'm just I'm pulling
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: things out of my ass here.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 6: Because the more news kept coming out, the more paranoid
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 6: I kept getting, because I thought they were going to
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 6: suspect me for sure. This is why I went to
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 6: the FBI and said, look, I went all through this
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 6: and I will clear myself. So is he saying he
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 6: went to the FBI first on the well, the Secret
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 6: Service interviewed him on the twenty third, right, and the
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 6: FBI the first on the twenty fifth, So he's saying
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 6: he went to the FBI.
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: He's saying he went to the FBI. But uh, I
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: think the Secret Service uh tipped off the FBI. As
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: today you might want to follow up with his motherfucker.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 2: Something don't smell right with him, right right?
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 6: And then maybe he went to them, which is why
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 6: they then sent Regis Kennedy to reinterview him. I think
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 6: I was the twenty seventh. You never heard of the
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 6: fair play for Cuba, the leaflets, Thornley, No, never heard
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 6: of any of that stuff until after the assassination. Do
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 6: you know Carlos bring a No, not to my knowledge,
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 6: Thortinly says. And I didn't recognize the picture, but I
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 6: worked with a lot of Cuban waiters at the Sheraton
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 6: Charles and a friend of mine, Carlos Castillo looks something
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 6: like him too, and a couple of waiters could have
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 6: been mistaken for him, but I did not know him.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 6: As far as I know, I did not know the guy.
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: And oh, by the way, Joe Carrie Thornley was part
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: of the Waiters Union in New Orleans when he was there,
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: and they actually held their meetings at five point forty
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: four Camp Street, just saying really really after the CRC
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: was or left left that building.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 6: Yeah, in sixty two, I believe.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they briefly would hold their Waiters Union meetings
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: there when Carry Thorning was a member.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 6: Yeah, these rabbit holes, Yeah, Camiye says, you have a
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 6: pickup Thornley. Yeah, we have a few.
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 2: We'll show them a little bit. I got one, I
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 2: got on my handy here hold on. Okay, So when
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: you talking about this guy looking like Oswald, of course
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: in his later life he did not. Yeah, uh be
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: younger at the same time. Of course, I think he
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: had like a different, different hair texture. But again he's
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: receiving hairline, a long nose, clean shaven, small mouth, and
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: this kind of shows you a little better slim build. Right.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 2: This is him with his wife Kara.
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I wouldn't say dead ringer, but I would also
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 6: say not not completely off.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: Base, Yeah, for sure a glance, Yeah, one could definitely
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: say what you know, damn, he could definitely be mistaken
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 2: for him, you know, for sure for sure. But then again,
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: you know his time goes on as the pictures of
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: him here on the cover with the gigantic beard and
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: you know, of course he doesn't look like Oswald here, right,
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: but you know his younger days in nineteen sixty three,
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: as we're talking about. And like I said, this picture
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: of him is from sixty four, sixty five. I'm not
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: sure when this one is from. I can't read the
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 2: small writing, but.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 6: Sixty three or eight one of those, but it's around
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 6: the same time, based I think on those pictures. Yeah,
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 6: so fascinating.
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: Shit, so are off base, I mean a ringer, but
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: it could definitely be uh yeah.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 6: Yeah, which is why you know shout out to episode
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 6: I believe it was two sixty five with Andre called
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 6: Escu named the second Oswalt about his short series on Thornley.
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 6: I believe Adam Goill rightly had the same type of theory, right, Yeah,
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 6: when were your first contacted by the FBI or the
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 6: Secret Service? I was waiting tables and we were waiting
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 6: on the last people at midnight Saturday night, thirty six
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 6: hours after the assassination. So Saturday night they went into
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 6: his restaurant and talked to him. The Secret Service did
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 6: how many days after the assassination that you went to
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 6: the Washington area? I think I left on December thirteenth.
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 8: Okay, So, out of all the places that he moves,
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 8: he decides to move out of New Orleans shortly after
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 8: the assassination.
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: And where does he go? Straight to Alexandria, which is
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: very close to Langley, Virginia. Cee I Spook Central. So
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: that's an interesting choice of all the places in America
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: to go.
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 6: You go there, right, especially when you consider California, New Orleans, Washington,
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 6: Virginia area.
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's very all the way from California. Yeah.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 6: You know, he didn't go to Nashville. He didn't go
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 6: to in Atlanta, you know named the city, right.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: But as we'll see here, you know, as we go on,
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: he had a friend that was there that said he
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 2: could get him a job blah blah blah.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 6: Yep, he went directly to Alexandria and called Mac who
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 6: was in school that day teaching. Who was mac Bob McDonald.
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 6: He's a friend who invited me there, and I had
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 6: a standing invitation there and just received a letter from
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 6: him about the time all this broke, So he seemed
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 6: like he used this opportunity to get the hell out
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 6: of New Orleans. Yeah, did you ever have occasion to
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 6: go in the Newman building where Guy Banister had an office?
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 6: Skiambra asks, No, I don't know the name Guy Banister?
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 6: Does ring a bell? I was in Tampa.
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, Greg, Thank you, sir. Awesome, thanks buddy,
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: appreciate you.
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 6: Yeah, thank you very much.
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: Sir, Greg Mayor. And it may not be tripping right now.
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 6: Greg is the man, thank you? No, but he I
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 6: was in Tampa on TV and they went through the
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 6: list with all the names that were in the Playboy interview.
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 6: I'm guessing Garrison's Playboy interview, which I hadn't read yet,
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 6: and the name Guy Banister rang a bell. And yesterday
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 6: when I was in the office, I was showing a
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 6: picture and I recognized it and it turned out to
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 6: be Guy Banister. I did not look at it and
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 6: say Guy Banister, but I looked at it and said,
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 6: I know that guy, and I know that name. So
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 6: that's kind of you know, beaten around the bush a
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 6: little bit.
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 2: Huh, just a little bit.
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 6: Yeah, he was very familiar looking, you know, someone like
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 6: in the Bourbon House someone I talked to. His office
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 6: was five thirty one Lafayette Street, across from the post office.
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 6: Does that refresh your recollection? Scammer says, asks, I think
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 6: I might have seen it. I think I have walked
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 6: by it.
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: Well, of course you would have walked by it, you.
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 6: Know, Guy Banister written there, and I might have walked
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 6: by on my way to Walgreens when I first got
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 6: to New Orleans.
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: And isn't that funny that Oswald used to hang out
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 2: at Walgreens in that same neighborhood in New Orleans, out
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: of all the places to go hang out at? Right?
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: I forgot about that.
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 6: Again, the coincidences are adding up here, Skiambra. His office
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 6: was behind the man Quso restaurant behind Lafayette and Camp.
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 6: This does not ring a bell. Which side is Lafayette on?
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 6: Thornley asks, I'm skipping aheat a little bit. In the interview.
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 6: You left the Sheridan Charles where he was waiting the
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 6: second time on September twentieth, nineteen sixty three.
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 2: Here's a date.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 6: What about that date?
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: That's pretty close to when Oswald supposedly left New Orleans.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 6: That's true, that's true. Now going back, can you remember
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 6: about a week afterward where you were. I have been
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 6: going through this whole September thing so much in my mind.
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 6: Have you reached some result as to this last week
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 6: of September? No? The only thing referring to this time
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 6: period ever since the assassination. Barbara Reid said, mark my words,
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 6: when the truth of the assassination comes out, And this
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 6: was within a week after Oswald was killed, and it
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 6: was in her house one night, and she said, when
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 6: the truth of the assassination comes out, it will be
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 6: a New Orleans based conspiracy. It will have right wing
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 6: elements involved, and it will have something to do with
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 6: Latin elements, all right, she was, that's a week within
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 6: Oswalt being killed. Barbara Reid is on it, so that
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 6: gives her some credibility to me, m M. What do
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 6: you recall thinking about this last week in September? Thornley,
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 6: let me tell you first how I got to thinking
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 6: about it. To begin with? She said she might be
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 6: tripping here. She says, she had seen me sitting with
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 6: Oswalt in my little corner of the Bourbon House where
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 6: I sat wherever it was empty, and she had said
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 6: to me a couple of times, you have a nice voice,
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 6: is something or something like that. I did not know
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 6: her too well, but I had seen her around and
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 6: I had been introduced to her casually. We weren't friends
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 6: or anything. She was sitting up at the bar and
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 6: I was sitting down here and someone was on my right,
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 6: and she says, I am sure you were sitting there
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 6: with Oswalt. I am positive it was Oswalt. Again, positive right,
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 6: because I never forget a face. Have been a casting
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 6: director and I never forget a face. Wow, very very neat.
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 6: And he was sitting there and talking to you, and
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 6: I made that comment to you about your voice. And
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 6: I remember talking, and I remember the incident. I was
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 6: sitting there one day, I was talking to somebody and
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 6: Barbara did make made a comment about my voice. And
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 6: the reason I think it was not is because first
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 6: of all, that night she was talking to me. We decided,
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 6: after talking about two hours, that she was so sure
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 6: of herself and all this travel pattern had emerged, and
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 6: I am saying, Barbara is suggesting. She is saying, well,
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 6: maybe you didn't recognize him. He came walking in, And
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 6: of course there was always that other consideration that I
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 6: was revising the book at that time and he would
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 6: have come walking in. And she convinced me that this
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 6: is probably what happened. He came walking in and sat
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 6: next to me, and we were talking to her, and
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 6: she made this comment on my voice and she went
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 6: back to her conversation and I went back to mine.
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 6: So again side stepping here is Thoroughley.
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure, Now for all the smart folks out there,
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: you'll recognize the Bourbon House from our Martin series and
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 2: the interconnections between Jolly Joe Martin and the Buckley family.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 2: William F. Buckley and his brother Ross Buckley, who was
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: in New Orleans at the time, hung out at the
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 2: Bourbon House, among some other notable I guess beat guys
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: if you will confuses, Yeah, And I mean you know
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 2: of Courley. If Carrie Thornley had been so impacted by
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 2: Lee Harvey Oswald to write a book about him and
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 2: be revising his book about him at the time that
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: he was in New Orleans at the Bourbon House and
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, Lee Oswald walks in the
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 2: fucking door of this place and sits down next to
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 2: him and says, hey, how you doing. Uh you think
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 2: he would remember unless he was just zuited out of
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 2: his mind, which is what it sounds like, right.
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 6: But if you're writing a book on this dude and
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 6: you had.
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: That would trip me out. If I was tripping you
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 2: know what I mean? Yeah, Like I'd be like, no way,
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 2: this is not happening, you know, like, what the fuck?
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 6: He seems to be distancing himself intentional.
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 2: Just a little bit.
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 6: Yeah, Yeah, and kudos to miss read Camy says, yeah,
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 6: And and I tried finding some documents. It's our e ED,
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 6: not our e I D. But I tried finding documents
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 6: on her and Mary Ferrell and there are none, So.
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: That is interesting. I think it's r E I D.
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 2: That's why you didn't find any.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 6: Oh okay, well then then, uh, then the the Garrison
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 6: transcribers misspelled it. And boy is he tap dancing?
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 2: Yes, sir James, he's doing the jig.
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 6: And that is I think. And this is why why
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 6: I said, keep in mind of why Garrison would charge
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 6: him with perjury.
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 2: Two weeks later, Yeah, this guy is full of ship. Yeah,
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 2: because I'm pretty sure that Garrison brought in Barbara Reed
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 2: too and talked to her.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 6: Yes, I I believe, so, I believe it's in one
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 6: of the Garrison boxes.
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 2: I did not find it, and she blatantly said, yeah,
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 2: I saw Oswald and throwing it together in the Bourbon
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 2: House talking for sure, right, and the fact that she's
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 2: the casting director. Never forget the face.
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 6: Just saying yeah, yeah, yeah, Timothy Ryan rabbit holes inside
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 6: rabbit holes, truly amazing, Yes, for sure, Yes, get the
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 6: fuck out a tour and says so many coincidences, and
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 6: Timothy Ryan echoes.
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: Those comments as well.
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 6: Okay, it's crazy, man, So let me get back to this.
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 2: Ah, hang on, there's a couple more start comments, I think.
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 6: Okay, I am started a couple, just.
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 2: I don't know where they're at how to access them.
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 6: Oh, I n starved them as I went through them.
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 2: Oh, because that was all of them. Yeah.
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 6: I had a couple more, but they were like way
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 6: back in the conversation.
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 2: So you stock comments. Okay, never mind, thanks to sorry
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 2: mean too.
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 6: Uh.
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 2: I thought Paula had a very good question. I can't
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: remember what it was.
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 6: She did, Uh, let me see if I could find
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 6: it real.
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 2: Quickly, Joe Dene did. Not worthy of discussion, but I did.
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 6: Yes, yes, oh, she said. I think how much of
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 6: Thornley's story has been verified with supporting documents? His confiscated novella?
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 6: Has it been released? Yes? Uh, in the nineties, the
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 6: date of the composition verified? Or did this kafuza just
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 6: seriously true?
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 5: No?
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 6: I mean we read the document from the Warrant Commission
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 6: that said that he brought it with him when when
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 6: he testified.
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they confiscated it and they got it back out
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 2: of the archives in the late eighties and early nineties,
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: and then it was published finally in nineteen ninety one
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 2: with the help of David Lifton, another California based conspiracy researcher.
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 6: Yeah. And of course you have the secret Service document
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 6: on the twenty third, and the FBI interviews on the
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 6: twenty fourth, and the twenty or twenty fifth and the
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 6: twenty seventh. I believe, so is that the one?
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the one?
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 6: Yeah? Okay, good? Sorry?
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 2: James. Did the Garrison hook him up to a PolyGram?
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 5: No?
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 2: But I think he wanted to and thro he said
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 2: no way in hell, jose m and never did.
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 5: So.
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 2: I wish because I love to see the results of that.
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that would have been interesting. So I don't think
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 6: she did, because the next day I started asking people,
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 6: you don't think so, Sciambra asks, I don't know whether
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 6: it was Oswalt. I can't remember who was sitting there
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 6: with me. I don't think it was Oswalt for two reasons.
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 6: The first thing is if I could remember who it was,
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 6: then I could say definitively. In view of the fact
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 6: that Dot gets interrupted, I understand those facts. But in
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 6: the view of the fact that you were writing a
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 6: novel about him, I think you would recognize him. You think, yes,
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 6: this was Barbara's theory? Was her theory, right? I don't know.
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 6: First of all, Thornalley says. The next day I started
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 6: saying to people, Barbara is sure she saw me with
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 6: Oswalt in the Bourbon House. That is the first thing
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 6: I kept asking people. He might have been tripping, he was,
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 6: or drunk as hell. Did you ask them, scamera if
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 6: they saw you at the Bourbon House with Oswald? No,
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 6: I did not ask them. How would they know Barbara
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 6: was there? I asked, I said, Barbara is sure she
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 6: saw me at the Bourbon House with Oswalt. I don't
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 6: know whether it is true or not, because she is
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 6: sure she saw me there, and she has convinced me
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 6: that she saw me again tap dancing like crazy. This
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 6: this is Barbara Glancy Reed. And that's exactly why I
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 6: could not find the documents, because they had misspelled her
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 6: name in the Garrison deposition. Amongst the most colorful Discordian
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 6: characters we've covered, the main focus of which was Reed's
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 6: role in the Jim Garrison investigation boondoggle, not to mentioned
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 6: her noteworthy involvement as one of the very first members
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 6: of New Orleans branch of Discordian society. Suffice it to say,
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 6: we merely scratch the surface of this remarkable lady's life,
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 6: whose greatest claim to fame was her role in shaping
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 6: the New Orleans music scene of the late nineteen fifties
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 6: and sixties. Interesting, huh yeah?
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 2: And also real quick, James is saying LSD was not
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 2: readily available before it appeared on Mass in San Francisco
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 2: Circus summer of sixty five. But James, there's a big
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 2: butt here, Okay. What's interesting is and the reason Turin,
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 2: I just read the title the show fair of play
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 2: for Switzerland, lol, and there's a reason. Okay. So when
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 2: you look back at the history of LSD, it was
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 2: first synthesized by a chemist at Sandos Laboratories in Switzerland
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 2: by Albert Hoffman in nineteen thirty eight.
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 6: Wow, that's what I bet. That's why they named it that.
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is the same year that Carry Thornley
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 2: was born, nineteen thirty eight. In nineteen forty three, Hoffman
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 2: discovered LSD's potent psychedelic properties when he accidentally ingested the substance.
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 2: In the nineteen fifties and early sixties, LSD became widely
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 2: studied in scientific and psychiatrist circles for potential therapeutic uses
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 2: such as treating alcoholism and schizophrenia. Now, if everybody remembers
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 2: the whole ordeal, Uh, yeah, the CIA had a ton
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 2: of this ship and oh, by the way, the CIA
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 2: station end at Sugi had a ton of acid LSD
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 2: from an earlier show that we found the documents on
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 2: and the whole thing that happened with ship Man, what
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 2: was that guy's name that supposedly jumped out of the
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 2: window tripping balls was it Harry Olsen the c i
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 2: A dosed him? No, whatn't Harry Olsen?
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 6: Oh?
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 2: I know you're talking the news. Who we're talking about?
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 6: Chat help us out a little help chat. Yes, I
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 6: do know who you're talking about.
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 2: But this is why Carrie Thornley called it the fair
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 2: play for ah Switzerland committee.
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 6: That makes a lot of sense.
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 2: So if this guy had some kind of ties Olsen, Frank.
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 6: Olsen, Frank Olsen, not Harry Olsen.
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this that incident happened in the fifties.
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 6: So if if.
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 2: You know this part of this mk altri if he
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 2: if you know Thornley was part of the MK Ultra
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 2: program and he didn't know it really, or maybe he
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 2: didn't know it and they were dosing this guy and
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 2: giving him acid, it might explain some things about what
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 2: he's doing in New Orleans at the beat and the
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 2: beat scene there, why he's going to Mexico, why Oswald
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 2: went to Mexico while he moved to CIA Central after
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: the assassination. It could answer a lot of questions. Yeah,
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 2: so it's you know, it wasn't like acid didn't exist
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 2: before nineteen sixty five. It definitely did, and the CIA
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 2: definitely had a hold on it and was experimenting with
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 2: it on people with and without their knowledge. So right,
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 2: you know, screwball like like Thornley would have been like,
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 2: you know, perfect guy if they dosed him and then
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 2: he just fell in love with it.
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 6: Took pocketed some, Yeah, took some.
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: Or maybe he was dosed in at Sugi when he
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 2: was there.
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's what I meant. It took took some from
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 6: Max Sugi.
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or maybe maybe Joe. His hookup was Slim Brooks
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 2: because here so apparently after he came back to New Orleans,
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 2: he was working for a short time at Foster Awning Company.
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 2: He occupied speaking of Slim Brooks, he occupied the same
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 2: desk I did on the shift before mine, and the
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 2: second day I was there, Slim left some notes with
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 2: Japanese writing on the desk so that I would be
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 2: sure and notice them. I turned to him and I said, Hey,
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: were you ever in Japan? That is how Slim and
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 2: I met. He didn't act at all surprised at my question,
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 2: And it says Thornly received his Marine Corps discharge in
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 2: October sixty one. His last assignment at the US Air
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 2: Base in Atsugi Japan. Carrie later suspected that slim notes
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 2: Slim's notes referencing Japan were more than mere coincidence, and
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 2: that Slim had been working covertly as his handler and
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 2: elsewhere in his Oswald book, Carrie wrote, Slim was a
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 2: down and out lumping proll, a seaman who was in
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 2: dry dock with a case of tuberculosis. Greg Hill says
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 2: he was a cat burglar who could climb up walls
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 2: like a human fly. Basically, I think he functioned as
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 2: an errand boy for Gary Kirstein. I believe that Gary
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 2: Kirstin or whatever his real name, was probably served in
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 2: Naval Intelligence during World War Two and continued to perform
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 2: freelance dirty work in small time surveillance assignments for them
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 2: after he got out. People asked me why Naval Intelligence
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 2: would have a Nazi working for them, for the same
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 2: reason the CIA is nazis working for them in the
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 2: Third World. So maybe, just maybe, Joe, this cat was
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 2: dosing or supplying it to thorn. If this is a
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 2: cat burglar, we climb walls like a fucking human fly,
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 2: spider man, and he was a burglar, I mean, I
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 2: don't know, Yeah.
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 6: It's possible. I mean, what better place to to do those?
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 6: And Trey says, I know there are stories about acid
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 6: parties at Tulane around that time. Interesting. Interesting? All right,
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 6: let me continue here with this deposition. Go from Barbara Reid.
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 6: Have you ever seen Jack Martin? Doesn't ring a bell?
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 6: How about how about carlos kiroga? Interesting people he's asking
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 6: about here? No, Guy Johnson, No, I don't know his name.
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 6: They asked him about something. I think it was Martin mccauliffe,
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 6: Doctor Martin mcaliff. It sounded like that. Have you ever
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 6: heard of the Friends of Democratic Cuba? No? Would it
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 6: refresh your memory if I told you that Martin mccalliffe
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 6: was president of Friends of Democratic Cuba.
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 2: No, not at all.
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 6: He was an incorporator with Guy Banister. I got the idea,
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 6: so he admits to knowing mccauliffe, but doesn't know about
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 6: the Friends of Democratic Cuba, which we have touched on
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 6: in previous shows. Right, I got the idea that mccalliffe
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 6: was some kind of left winger because he objected so
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 6: strongly to the idle warrior and these half baked political ideas.
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 6: He said, how many times did you see him. I
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 6: saw him a lot of times, ten or twelve times,
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 6: and we argued about this. And then one day, about
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 6: a year six months later, I saw him again across
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 6: the way and he said hi, and I said, that
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 6: is Martin mccalliffe, and he didn't like my book and
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 6: he overheard that and looked shocked. During the time you
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 6: saw mccauliffe, you were not aware that he was the
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 6: president of the Friends of Democratic Cuba. Was that organization
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 6: a left or right wing? Thornly asks h And this
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 6: says answer, But I'm not sure if it was a
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 6: question or an answer. Here it was a CIA front
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 6: used to purchase trucks and other things immediately before the
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 6: Bay of Pigs.
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 2: Right now, what that is talking about is, of course,
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 2: this was the Friends of Democratic Cuba was incorporated by
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 2: Guy Banister and associates, not an associates, but associates of
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 2: Guy Banister, like Guy Johnson, this Martin mccauliffe, Guy, and
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 2: they were definitely right wing. And when he's referencing here
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 2: the use of used to purchase trucks and other things,
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 2: there was an instance in New Orleans, Yeah, where Lee
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 2: Oswald's name was used.
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I believe it was nineteen sixty.
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 2: One, yeah, and so in Russia. Yeah, he was in Russia,
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 2: and so it couldn't have been him. So I think
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 2: Garrison's traveling down his path trying to say that it
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 2: might have been Thornley pushed, pushed to do that by
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 2: their friends of Democratic Cuba.
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 6: Right, And it is weird that he saw him a
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 6: lot of times. Thornley says ten or twelve, Yeah, that's
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 6: a lot. But he's also dancing around the fact that
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 6: he didn't know Guy Banister, right, which would be a
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 6: stretch for me.
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 2: Well, somebody like Guy Banister probably wasn't a guy that
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 2: you wanted to be dragging his name around.
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 6: I mean, that's true, that's true, that's true, you know
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 6: what I mean. He's a step above right, some people.
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 6: He's not associating, associating with every skafooza.
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like Martin mccaulliff. Sounds like a giant pussy name
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 2: m hm. But somebody like that baster, a serious, you know,
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 2: former FBI guy, a serious motherfucker, probably had a gun
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 2: with him at all times. It was somebody that probably
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 2: throwingly was smart enough not to say that he knew, right.
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 6: But wasn't banished dead at that time, No, bye, by
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 6: the Garrison investigation. Oh yeah, yeah, that's that's what I'm
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 6: saying during this Yeah, during this interview. But yeah, he's
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 6: still distancing.
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 2: Morn he knew he was dead.
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 6: How about a man named John C. Martin, who I
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 6: believe rob was the the trademark guy, right, the head
• 1:52:05
  Speaker 6: security guy.
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 2: At the trademark trademark.
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, nope, Alvin Bobar, Nope, Melvin Coffee. I heard
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 6: of somebody named Coffee because I thought I heard that
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 6: What a strange name. Where did you hear it? I
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 6: don't know where I heard it, somewhere when I was
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 6: in New Orleans. I can't recall the incident. I just
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 6: recall the name Coffee. Can you recall who mentioned it? No?
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 6: I just recall the name Coffee and thinking it's such
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 6: a strange name, you wouldn't recall having met him. No
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 6: thorm the answers. So this is interesting. How about Gerald
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 6: Patrick Henry.
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 2: Hemming?
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 6: Yes, nope, that doesn't sound familiar. A question very tall
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 6: about six eight two point fifty, which, of course Heming
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 6: was extremely tall. I don't know if he was six eight,
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 6: but he was he was like six seven or sixty six.
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 2: Or something, but about six five or sixty eight.
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 6: Yeah, he was tall. No, I'm trying to think of somebody.
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 6: He is a friend of Lauren Hall's. Have you ever
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 6: met him? He has been in the paper recently. Nope.
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 6: Thornley says, I saw his picture in the Free Press.
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 6: Read all about him there, Lawrence Howard. As far as
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 6: I know, I have never met him. William or Billy
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 6: William Seymour of course of injer Penn. Nope. Are you
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 6: sure that you never saw Lee Harvey Oswalt in New
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 6: Orleans in nineteen sixty three. For a while you seemed
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 6: to be on the fence. No. The only time I
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 6: ever thought I did was when Barbara Reid was so
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 6: sure about it and I became convinced. But I am
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 6: sure I did not see Oswalt and recognize him in
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 6: New Orleans in nineteen sixty three. You were telling me
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 6: that there was a point when she had convinced you
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 6: that you were with Oswald. Yes, she convinced me, certainly.
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 6: There was two hours or so she was talking to
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 6: me and she said, Carrie, what must have happened was this.
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 6: You must have walked into the Bourbon House and he
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 6: must have walked in. You must have seen that his
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 6: face was familiar, but not recognized him out of uniform
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 6: and all this stuff, and he must have sat down
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 6: next to you. She was so certain, so positive. Question, Skiambre.
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 6: Didn't seem to you that this was possible. It seemed
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 6: to be possible when she got all through until the
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 6: next day and people began to say, Barbara Reid connects
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 6: herself with everything that happens. Then it seemed impossible. So
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 6: I was kind of dancing around. Have you ever met Marina?
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 6: Not that I know of. I thought I saw her
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 6: standing waiting for a bus when I got off here,
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 6: But Moe said he was sure wouldn't be her because
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 6: she wouldn't be alone. But did you not meet her
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 6: in nineteen sixty three, Thornley, not that I know of.
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 6: This is the thing. The French Quarter is such a
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 6: small place. You see each other even though there are
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 6: a lot of people, and you pass somebody on the
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 6: street and you not recognize them. Of course I would
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 6: not have recognized her then because I would not have
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 6: known who she was, which, of course he wouldn't have
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 6: because unless because during the time he knew Oswalt, he
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 6: had not defected to Russia and met Marina yet, but
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 6: he's still kind of tap dancing here. Question when did
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 6: you make the decision to move to the Arlington area
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 6: after the assassination, after the assassination or before, yes, after
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 6: the assassination, and so two weeks later after this deposition,
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 6: the District Attorney Parish of New Orleans, State of Louisiana,
• 1:56:09
  Speaker 6: Jim Garrison, does a press release February twenty first, nineteen
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 6: sixty eight, carry Wendell Thornley today was charged with committing
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 6: perjury before Orleans Parish Grand Jury during his testimony on
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 6: February eighth, nineteen sixty eight, which, of course we just
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 6: went through. The perjury charges were based on his sworn
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 6: testimony before the grand jury to the effect that he
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 6: did not think he had met Lee Harvey Oswalt in
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 6: New Orleans in nineteen sixty three. Evidence indicates that he did,
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 6: so they are not buying Thornley's story here. When the
• 1:56:42
  Speaker 6: War Commission hearings were held in sixty four, Thornly testified
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 6: that Oswalt was a Communist when they were in the
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 6: Marines to gather in California prior to Oswalt's fifty nine
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 6: departure for Russia. Thornley was the commission's star witness concerning
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 6: Oswalt's early left wing orientation. Much as Oswalt was really
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 6: at any time a commentist, he was more Since Mark
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 6: is going to read the footnote, yes, Since the portrait
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 6: of Oswalt as a demented Marxist was not forthcoming from
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 6: other Marines, the testimony of most of them was presented
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 6: simply in the form of brief affidavits. Thornley's image creating
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 6: testimony lasted warm Commission testimony lasted for thirty three pages,
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 6: at the end of which little doubt was left about
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 6: leep Oswalt's commitment to communism and his qualifications as an assassin,
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 6: nor even inclined in that direction. And inasmuch he was
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 6: sent to Russia as an employee of the United States government.
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 6: This is Garrison. It was necessary to have a major
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 6: witness testify in great detail to create an early image
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 6: as a Marxist so that there would not be too
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 6: much public curiosity about the real reasons for Oswalt's abrupt
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 6: departure from the Marine Corps to sail to Russia. Thornley's
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 6: Warran Commission testimony concerned his observations of this Marxist personality
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 6: during their service together at Alturo Marine Base, California, nineteen
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 6: fifty nine. He testified that he had not seen Oswalt
• 1:58:22
  Speaker 6: since Thornley's own long residence in New Orleans after his
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 6: discharge from sixty one through sixty three was not examined
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 6: in any depth in the Warrant Commission.
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 2: So see, Thornley was in New Orleans and sixty one
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 2: and could have used Oswald's name on behalf of the
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 2: Friends of Democratic Cuba to try to purchase jeeps.
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 6: That's a good point, sir, good point. Nor was there
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 6: any hint, Garrison continues and Thornley's Warren Commission testimony that
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 6: he had any connection in New Orleans with ind individuals
• 1:58:58
  Speaker 6: or organizations and gage in anti Castro activity. Least of all,
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 6: was there any hint that he was connected here with
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 6: persons who were connected with Lee Oswalt, persons who played
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 6: active roles and created the picture of Oswalt as still
• 1:59:13
  Speaker 6: being a Communist in nineteen fifty three, shortly before the assassination.
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 6: Nor was there any indication of his having met following
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 6: his discharge from Marine's one of the men presently under
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 6: a charge related to the assassination. Like a number of
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 6: young men who have been identified as CIA employees, Thornley
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 6: had a post office box in the Federal building across
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 6: from Banister's office. Such post office boxes are customarily used
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 6: by federal employees with clandestine assignments as message.
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 2: Drops or LSD drops yeah as.
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 6: Could be as well as acceptable excuse for regular visits
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 6: into a federal building. Another of the young men having
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 6: such a post office box was Lee Harvey Oswalt. What
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 6: this means is simply that Carrie Thornley and Lee Oswald
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 6: were both part of the covert federal operation operating in
• 2:00:08
  Speaker 6: New Orleans. The only difference between Oswalt and the other
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 6: young CIA employees was that, having performed a flamboyant Russian
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 6: assignment for his country, he had a beautiful potential as
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 6: a decoy in the assassination, a potential which, as it happened,
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 6: his employers did not waste. Thornley actually lived across Lafayette
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 6: Square from the I think it's Olympic Office I can't
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 6: see and the Newman Building in which Oswald was later seen,
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 6: prior to his moving into the French Quarter, At the
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 6: time of the assassination, Thornley was living on Dauphine Street,
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 6: a block and a half downtown from Esplanade. Shortly after
• 2:00:52
  Speaker 6: the assassination, he departed abruptly for Washington, DC area, where
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 6: he remained until after his testimony before the War Commission.
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 6: By a curious stroke of luck, Thornley, during his New
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 6: Orleans residents, wrote a book based on Lee Oswalt. He
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 6: completed it about the time of the assassination. As luck
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 6: would have it, the man he wrote about ended up
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 6: being charged with assassinating the president. Apparently no one else
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 6: had written a book about Oswalt prior of the assassination,
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 6: and in due course it found its way to a publisher.
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 6: In waydue course, the Central Intelligence Agency elements which accomplished
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 6: the execution of President Kennedy included, in addition to the
• 2:01:34
  Speaker 6: ambush squad of professional assassins used in Dallas, individuals working
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 6: on custodial assignments and on image creating assignments. The technique
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 6: used in creating a communist image for Oswalt were persuading
• 2:01:48
  Speaker 6: him by means of a pretext, to engage in certain
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 6: activities such as handing out fair play for Cuba pamphlets,
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 6: having other employees play his part in more inculpatory tableau
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 6: tableau such as appearing at the Mexican consul here and
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 6: inquiring as to whether he could bring a rifle into Mexico,
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 6: or obstensively receiving money being paid to him in the
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 6: courtyard of the Cuban Council in Mexico City, and testifying
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 6: after the assassination that Oswal was indeed a deranged communist.
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 6: Like all large bureaucracy bureaucratic federal agencies, however, the CIA
• 2:02:33
  Speaker 6: is capable of goofing. In spite of this carefully contrived
• 2:02:37
  Speaker 6: insulation and the countless red herrings it planted along the way,
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 6: it goofed with regard to Thornley, apparently because by mid
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 6: December things appeared to be well under control. A few
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 6: weeks after the assassination, Thornley abruptly cleared out of his
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 6: Dauphine Tree department, leaving a note for his landlord that
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 6: he had to go to town just outside of Washington,
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 6: d c. Thornly remained on ice or on the Lamb
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 6: as the Black Coaster Norstra calls it, in Arlington, Virginia,
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 6: until it came time for him to testify that Oswald
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 6: had been a Communist, way back for him to testify
• 2:03:18
  Speaker 6: in their marine days. Ordinarily, the connections to our one
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 6: government agency specializing in assassination are more carefully concealed. However,
• 2:03:28
  Speaker 6: by December thirteenth, sixty four, the Warrant Commission had been selected.
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 6: I wonder if that's Typo sixty three, with the reassuring
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 6: presence of Alan Dulles, the former head of the CIA.
• 2:03:41
  Speaker 6: When spring of sixty four arrived and the time came
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 6: for his his word picture of Oswald, thornly testified not
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 6: only that he had been a Marxist, but that he
• 2:03:51
  Speaker 6: had a persecution complex, was emotionally unstable, and wanted a
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 6: place in history. And as much as the defendant had
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 6: already already safely been executed the standard fate of the
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 6: decoy in the professional assassinations, these words now become part
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 6: of the official picture of Lee Oswalt, and his years
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 6: as a CIA employee were buried with him in such
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 6: a fashion, with key witnesses produced to attest to the
• 2:04:27
  Speaker 6: needed fictions. At crucial points, did the Warrant Commission turn
• 2:04:31
  Speaker 6: day into night, up into down and achieve a harmonious,
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 6: continually continuous d of this tableau Jesus Christ produced by
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 6: the architects of the President Kennedy's assassination. That is why
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 6: the concealment of the involvement of the elements of the
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 6: CIA was so successful, because the seven distinguished men of
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 6: the Warren Commission literally adopted the scenario developed by the assassins.
• 2:04:59
  Speaker 6: Their giving a f status to the fraudulent fairy tale
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 6: made it extremely difficult to learn what really did happen
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 6: to John Kennedy, especially when the new President issued in
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 6: executive order concealing much of the crucial evidence for seventy
• 2:05:14
  Speaker 6: five years. With regard to Thornley, the total absence of
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 6: any details in his warrant commissioned testimony concerning his relationships
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 6: in New Orleans were relevant individuals reveals his thirty three
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 6: page picture of Oswalt at Alteruro to be synthetic and representative, representative,
• 2:05:34
  Speaker 6: representative of the fictional nature of the entire fraudulent investigation.
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 6: When the time comes that it is desired to determine
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 6: when we cease to live in a free society, it
• 2:05:46
  Speaker 6: will be found that the change occurred on November twenty second,
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 6: nineteen sixty three, the day the credibility gap began, So
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 6: that same day that this press release I just read
• 2:06:01
  Speaker 6: horribly by Garrison was released. Of course you have FBI
• 2:06:07
  Speaker 6: New Orleans sending an urgent teletype to Director Hoover, New
• 2:06:17
  Speaker 6: Orleans States Item red Flash edition February twenty one, Instant
• 2:06:21
  Speaker 6: reported that DA Jim Garrison indicted free lance writer Kerrie Thornley,
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 6: once a Marine Corps buddy of Lee Harvey Oswalt, today
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 6: in connection with his testimony February eighth.
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 2: Before the New Orleans Parish Grand.
• 2:06:35
  Speaker 6: Jury testimony in its Kennedy assassination probe. The article reported
• 2:06:39
  Speaker 6: that Thornley was accused of lying before the grand jury
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 6: when he testified that he had not been with Oswalt
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 6: in New Orleans in September in nineteen sixty three, and
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 6: again Oswalt is unemployed in September of nineteen sixty three
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 6: and in New Orleans, so he was doing something. The
• 2:07:04
  Speaker 6: article stated. The charge details the testimony of Thornley and
• 2:07:09
  Speaker 6: the questions by DIA Garrison. According to the article, Thornley
• 2:07:12
  Speaker 6: denied meeting with Oswalt, and in reply to Garrison's questions,
• 2:07:16
  Speaker 6: Thornley said he had been told by Barbara Reid, a
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 6: French quarter of resident, that he had been seen with
• 2:07:22
  Speaker 6: Oswalt that September in the Bourbon House restaurant. Thornley told
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 6: the grand jury he was sure he had not met
• 2:07:28
  Speaker 6: with Oswalt despite miss Reed's statements. The charge says that
• 2:07:33
  Speaker 6: Thornley knew his testimony was false and untrue. The article
• 2:07:39
  Speaker 6: further stated that Thornley has said before he left New
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 6: Orleans of September sixty I think it says seven. But
• 2:07:50
  Speaker 6: we know he left in sixty three, at least for
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 6: a little while. He furnished Garrison in Affidavid concerning Oswalt
• 2:07:59
  Speaker 6: and his relationship with him at the Mareen Corps base
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 6: in Ontro. The New Orleans States Item final addition reported
• 2:08:06
  Speaker 6: that in response to the perjury charge, Thornley said, there
• 2:08:09
  Speaker 6: is either a conspiracy afoot to frame me by someone
• 2:08:13
  Speaker 6: with a large amount of money, or the grand jury
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 6: was misled by an overwhelming amount of circumstantial coincidences. Many witnesses,
• 2:08:23
  Speaker 6: Thornley declared, apparently deliberately lied in testifying that they saw
• 2:08:28
  Speaker 6: him with Oswald and restaurants and other places.
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 2: So yeah, James Jarrison has taken some leaps here. I agree.
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 2: I mean that subpoena was rather long. All he really
• 2:08:48
  Speaker 2: needed to say is, look, based upon we have eyewitness
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 2: testimony that he met with Oswald, we're going to charge
• 2:08:56
  Speaker 2: him with perjury. The rest of it, it's a bunch
• 2:08:59
  Speaker 2: of questionable hookum.
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 6: Uh yeah, yeah, a little exaggeration, a little exaggeration there,
• 2:09:07
  Speaker 6: which which Garrison you know, uh truthfully did do in
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 6: in many instances, right, you know he.
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 2: Could, he said, you know, based upon his testimony, we
• 2:09:22
  Speaker 2: can we come to the belief that he's they lied
• 2:09:25
  Speaker 2: to the grand jury. Therefore we're charging with perjury. Blah
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 2: blah blah. But again, after after the grand jury testimony,
• 2:09:34
  Speaker 2: he never came back to New Orleans, at least while
• 2:09:37
  Speaker 2: Jim Garrison was a district attorney and then err Conic
• 2:09:41
  Speaker 2: Senior throughout the subpoena once he became district attorney. H yeah, yeah,
• 2:09:51
  Speaker 2: which brings us through, okay, uh, Carrie Thornley's later life
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 2: if you will excuse me, because you know, of course
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 2: he did live for another thirty years after the years
• 2:10:09
  Speaker 2: an investigation.
• 2:10:11
  Speaker 6: And good night, double b we'll see assume we're almost done. Yes, thanks,
• 2:10:18
  Speaker 6: you'll watch us as you fall asleep on your TV
• 2:10:20
  Speaker 6: as you do see be watching the rest on TV.
• 2:10:25
  Speaker 6: See I didn't even see that part before I said it.
• 2:10:30
  Speaker 6: I know the double B sorry prey continues, so you know.
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 2: Later in life, Thornley played the line on the narrative
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 2: that he was somehow involved in the assassination very tightly.
• 2:10:49
  Speaker 2: While not blatantly coming out and saying this is what happened.
• 2:10:55
  Speaker 2: He speculated a lot, including this Joe that in conversations
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 2: with Slim Brooks and Gary Kirstein that they might have
• 2:11:07
  Speaker 2: been recorded his conversations with them, and a tape that
• 2:11:13
  Speaker 2: could later be used to set him up as a
• 2:11:15
  Speaker 2: fall guy. Carrie later grew to suspect that the true
• 2:11:17
  Speaker 2: identity of Slim was that of Jerry Milton Brooks, who
• 2:11:21
  Speaker 2: journalist Jay Harry Jones Junior described as a thirty eight
• 2:11:24
  Speaker 2: year old enigma who emerged from the fringe of the
• 2:11:27
  Speaker 2: East Saint Louis Underworld to spy on communists for the Minutemen,
• 2:11:31
  Speaker 2: then spy on the Minutemen for the FBI and the
• 2:11:33
  Speaker 2: US Treasury Department. According to an FBI memo dated October thirtieth,
• 2:11:40
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventy three. Jerry Brooks had been found not guilty
• 2:11:46
  Speaker 2: in an extortion case in November fifty seven in Illinois
• 2:11:51
  Speaker 2: and had been placed on probation the Springfield Division of
• 2:11:55
  Speaker 2: the FBI. Now again, remember that before Guy Banister resigned
• 2:12:09
  Speaker 2: from the FBI, he was specialized in charge of Chicago, Illinois. Yes,
• 2:12:19
  Speaker 2: so the FBI advised that Brooks was considered to quote
• 2:12:23
  Speaker 2: a nut who related fantastic stories which led people in
• 2:12:26
  Speaker 2: the USA's office to consider him mentally unbalanced. And on
• 2:12:31
  Speaker 2: April first, sixty six and April fourth, sixty six, Brooks
• 2:12:36
  Speaker 2: contacted specialat George Arnette of the Kansas City Division and
• 2:12:40
  Speaker 2: made outland his claims, such as Earl Warren and Vice
• 2:12:45
  Speaker 2: President Humphrey were both Communists, and also that Bobby Kennedy
• 2:12:49
  Speaker 2: killed Marilyn Monroe. So there's an early theory. Especially. Arnett
• 2:13:01
  Speaker 2: stated that Brooks, whom he had known for several years,
• 2:13:03
  Speaker 2: appeared extremely nervous and emotionally upset, and even described himself
• 2:13:07
  Speaker 2: as a nut and a kook. Thornley's French quarter friend,
• 2:13:13
  Speaker 2: Grace Zabriski, remembered Slim thusly. So Slim is not merely
• 2:13:19
  Speaker 2: a figment of Thornley's imagination. Folks. She says, I met
• 2:13:24
  Speaker 2: Slim several times, didn't really feel that I knew him.
• 2:13:28
  Speaker 2: All the things Carrie writes about Slim don't tally with anything.
• 2:13:32
  Speaker 2: I was privy to it in him. All I ever
• 2:13:35
  Speaker 2: saw was the laconic sort of country effect that he cultivated.
• 2:13:40
  Speaker 2: I think I may have heard about brother in law,
• 2:13:42
  Speaker 2: which is Gary Kirstine aka E. Howard Hunt, back then,
• 2:13:47
  Speaker 2: but it's only possible I heard about him later in
• 2:13:49
  Speaker 2: letters from Carrie. You know, though, it's also a fact
• 2:13:53
  Speaker 2: that the mention of brother in law gives me a
• 2:13:55
  Speaker 2: dark feeling, the kind is hard to imagine. I got
• 2:13:58
  Speaker 2: by without ever setting eyes on him. But not only
• 2:14:01
  Speaker 2: was Slim a man of intrigue and seemingly shady talents,
• 2:14:04
  Speaker 2: he was also one of the original members of the
• 2:14:06
  Speaker 2: New Orleans branch of the Discordian Society, known by his
• 2:14:10
  Speaker 2: pope name of quote the Keeper of the Submarine Keys.
• 2:14:18
  Speaker 2: So that ties in, you know, when we go back
• 2:14:23
  Speaker 2: and look at the map, right, glorious map. Yeah, Slim's
• 2:14:31
  Speaker 2: singular contribution to Discordian lore, or at least his only
• 2:14:35
  Speaker 2: contribution that we're aware of, it, is exhibited in the
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 2: form of Facetious Harbor map right, which we've seen and
• 2:14:50
  Speaker 2: that can be found in the Discordian archives. Let's see
• 2:14:59
  Speaker 2: Facetious Harbor. This is a somewhat exact duplicate of a
• 2:15:03
  Speaker 2: confiscated map taken from a descended muskrat hunter and pirate.
• 2:15:08
  Speaker 2: It charts a hit hitherto unknown area. A total of
• 2:15:12
  Speaker 2: sixteen point four maps have been sent to verify the map,
• 2:15:17
  Speaker 2: but of those that have returned, none were sane enough
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 2: to reveal the area's position, particularly in regards to politics.
• 2:15:26
  Speaker 2: If you can find the damn place, good luck, for
• 2:15:29
  Speaker 2: it is rumored that there is a vast fortune of
• 2:15:31
  Speaker 2: four hundred million mushrat teeth and brass button ice buttonicks,
• 2:15:39
  Speaker 2: brass buttonicks, whatever those are. I don't know that that
• 2:15:50
  Speaker 2: was the flip side to the Facetious Harbor map. And
• 2:15:58
  Speaker 2: Brooks was linked to a Minuteman scheme in Kansas City,
• 2:16:05
  Speaker 2: and I'm not sure the exact date of this. I
• 2:16:08
  Speaker 2: think it was sixty seven, and alleged scheme to poison
• 2:16:14
  Speaker 2: ambassadors to the United Nations and a short lived plot
• 2:16:18
  Speaker 2: to assassinate Senator J. William Fulbright of Arkansas has been
• 2:16:23
  Speaker 2: related by the Kansas City Star. In a copyrighted story
• 2:16:28
  Speaker 2: the newspaper sent Thursday, a former trusted aid in the
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 2: Minuteman organization, Jerry Milton Brooks, had been subpoena to testify
• 2:16:35
  Speaker 2: before a federal grand jury on April twenty second. The
• 2:16:39
  Speaker 2: minumn of right wing group headed by Robert Depew of Norburn, Missouri.
• 2:16:43
  Speaker 2: To Pew is awaiting trial and charges of contributing to
• 2:16:45
  Speaker 2: the delinquency of a minor a misdemeanor, and illegal possession
• 2:16:49
  Speaker 2: of quote bombs and Bombshells is free under a three
• 2:16:53
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars bond. At this time. The subpoena for Brooks
• 2:16:59
  Speaker 2: was issued by Calvin Hamilton, assistant US attorney. Brooks, thirty six,
• 2:17:04
  Speaker 2: defected from the Minimen and now lives in Kansas City.
• 2:17:07
  Speaker 2: Star said he has dictated and signed a seventy eight
• 2:17:11
  Speaker 2: page statement about the mint Men in the Jackson County
• 2:17:14
  Speaker 2: Prosecutor's office. Brooks said that he left the organization. He
• 2:17:19
  Speaker 2: described several Minuteman gatherings, one of which was a training
• 2:17:22
  Speaker 2: session at which a man outlined a plan to place
• 2:17:25
  Speaker 2: cyanide in the air conditioning system of the United Nations
• 2:17:28
  Speaker 2: Building in New York. Brooks said the plot against Fulbright
• 2:17:32
  Speaker 2: was broached at a freedom rally of the min and
• 2:17:34
  Speaker 2: men in nineteen sixty two, at which there was a
• 2:17:37
  Speaker 2: discussion of assassinating the Arkansas senator who was chairman of
• 2:17:40
  Speaker 2: the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Brooks said the plot was
• 2:17:45
  Speaker 2: stopped by Depew because the leader feared that if the
• 2:17:47
  Speaker 2: assassinations were carried out, subsequent investigations might endanger the life
• 2:17:53
  Speaker 2: of the Minutemen organization. So was it I mean, seventy
• 2:18:01
  Speaker 2: eight page what do they call it, statement affidavit something.
• 2:18:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's a lot of snitching going on. Yeah, right, yeah,
• 2:18:15
  Speaker 2: a whole lot of snitching going on. Yeah. So who
• 2:18:18
  Speaker 2: knows what this guy was up to, who he's affiliated with,
• 2:18:21
  Speaker 2: but it definitely up to no good. Joe definitely up
• 2:18:24
  Speaker 2: to no good.
• 2:18:25
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and to I think it was James or Timothy's
• 2:18:30
  Speaker 6: comment earlier was I don't think Thornley was involved in
• 2:18:33
  Speaker 6: the assassination. I agree with that, but I think there
• 2:18:38
  Speaker 6: is more to Thornley than he is saying. He was
• 2:18:41
  Speaker 6: really intelligent and based on what is his presence in
• 2:18:47
  Speaker 6: New Orleans in nineteen sixty one and his association with McAuliffe,
• 2:18:54
  Speaker 6: you know, the president of the Friends of Democratic Cuba,
• 2:18:59
  Speaker 6: and using Oswalt's name, who, of course he would have
• 2:19:03
  Speaker 6: known by then, right, right.
• 2:19:08
  Speaker 2: Funny to use Oswald's name, because he knew he had defected,
• 2:19:12
  Speaker 2: he knew he was a weirdo Marxist, and he knew
• 2:19:15
  Speaker 2: he had affected the Russia. And from New Orleans, and yeah,
• 2:19:20
  Speaker 2: from New Orleans. And you know he intrigued about this
• 2:19:23
  Speaker 2: guy enough to write a book about him before the assassination.
• 2:19:26
  Speaker 2: I think Thornley would have thought it very funny to
• 2:19:28
  Speaker 2: use his name for you know, these weird purposes. But
• 2:19:36
  Speaker 2: as we like to do Joe, when concerned about some
• 2:19:38
  Speaker 2: of these characters, let's hear from Carrie Thornley himself. Okay,
• 2:19:45
  Speaker 2: and you be the judge of this guy. This is,
• 2:19:50
  Speaker 2: of course from the early nineties. I believe Soundra London
• 2:19:55
  Speaker 2: did a series of interviews with this guy later in
• 2:19:58
  Speaker 2: life ninety two. Yeah, I happened to have a it's
• 2:20:06
  Speaker 2: a three minute video here, so let's hear what he
• 2:20:09
  Speaker 2: has to say. This was done in nineteen ninety two.
• 2:20:13
  Speaker 2: So here we go. Here is Carrie Wendell Thornley in
• 2:20:16
  Speaker 2: the Flesh Beard Roland.
• 2:20:24
  Speaker 5: My name is Carrie Wendell Thornley. I was in the
• 2:20:27
  Speaker 5: Marines with Slee Harvey Oswald.
• 2:20:30
  Speaker 7: I'm quoted four times in the war On Report to
• 2:20:34
  Speaker 7: help establish a motivation for Oswald's otherwise inexplicable alleged act.
• 2:20:41
  Speaker 1: I was.
• 2:20:44
  Speaker 7: Prosecuted or the attempt was made to prosecute me by
• 2:20:47
  Speaker 7: Jim Garrison when he investigated the Kennedy assassination as the
• 2:20:51
  Speaker 7: District Attorney of Orleans Parish in nineteen sixty eight.
• 2:20:57
  Speaker 5: In nineteen sixty five, mulling over a lot of strange
• 2:21:02
  Speaker 5: coincidences or what UH I at first thought were coincidences that.
• 2:21:05
  Speaker 7: Jim Garrison brought up connecting me with his assassination conspiracy,
• 2:21:10
  Speaker 7: I came to the conclusion that in fact, I was
• 2:21:12
  Speaker 7: involved in a plot to commit murder UH to assassinate
• 2:21:17
  Speaker 7: John F. Kennedy UH in the early sixties between the
• 2:21:20
  Speaker 7: Bay of Pigs invasion and the Kennedy assassination itself. That
• 2:21:26
  Speaker 7: took UH the form of some conversations with two other individuals.
• 2:21:30
  Speaker 5: One of these men was named Slim Brooks.
• 2:21:33
  Speaker 7: I believe he was Jerry Milton Brooks, who was head
• 2:21:37
  Speaker 7: of the Anti Communist League of the Caribbean and who
• 2:21:40
  Speaker 7: worked for Guy Banister Uh, who was the UH coordinator
• 2:21:45
  Speaker 7: of anti castro activities in New Orleans.
• 2:21:48
  Speaker 5: I believe the other man may have been Edward Howard Hunt,
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 5: the Watergate burglar.
• 2:21:53
  Speaker 3: UH.
• 2:21:55
  Speaker 5: I met these uh guys uh right around the time
• 2:21:58
  Speaker 5: of the Bay of Pigs invasion. I met just before.
• 2:22:02
  Speaker 3: On a job.
• 2:22:03
  Speaker 5: I was a telephone solicitor. I was working at the
• 2:22:06
  Speaker 5: Foster Awning Company in New Orleans. S Slim uh befriended
• 2:22:13
  Speaker 5: me and showed me around the French.
• 2:22:14
  Speaker 7: Quarter and showed me where all the places in town
• 2:22:18
  Speaker 7: to get the best bargains were, and this and that.
• 2:22:21
  Speaker 6: And.
• 2:22:23
  Speaker 7: Eventually, about two weeks after the Bay of Pigs invasion occurred,
• 2:22:27
  Speaker 7: which it occurred on my twenty third birthday incidentally, uh
• 2:22:31
  Speaker 7: Uh April seventeenth.
• 2:22:33
  Speaker 5: Nineteen sixty one.
• 2:22:34
  Speaker 7: And about two weeks later he introduced me to his
• 2:22:36
  Speaker 7: a man he said was his brother in law.
• 2:22:39
  Speaker 2: This guy was.
• 2:22:42
  Speaker 5: Bald headed uh.
• 2:22:43
  Speaker 7: In that respect, he did not look like Hunt at
• 2:22:45
  Speaker 7: that time and every other respect he did.
• 2:22:49
  Speaker 5: He usually wore uh a white shirt and slacks.
• 2:22:56
  Speaker 7: And he claimed that he was from a Midwestern uh German,
• 2:22:59
  Speaker 7: ammer and booned family and that he had been a
• 2:23:02
  Speaker 7: Nazi all his life. He claimed he had served with
• 2:23:05
  Speaker 7: naval intelligence on Guam during World War Two.
• 2:23:10
  Speaker 5: He further claimed that his name was Gary Kirsten k
• 2:23:15
  Speaker 5: I R S T E I N if I remember correctly.
• 2:23:22
  Speaker 7: Gary was introduced to me as someone who didn't like
• 2:23:27
  Speaker 7: Kennedy either by Slim.
• 2:23:30
  Speaker 5: And when that happened, Gary extended his hand and said yes.
• 2:23:36
  Speaker 5: He said, I think John F.
• 2:23:39
  Speaker 7: Kennedy's a menace to this country and they ought to
• 2:23:41
  Speaker 7: be assassinated.
• 2:23:42
  Speaker 5: And I said I agree, and we shook hands, and
• 2:23:46
  Speaker 5: Slim said, oh goodie.
• 2:23:47
  Speaker 2: I was a catalyst.
• 2:23:48
  Speaker 5: And later on when I was talking.
• 2:23:51
  Speaker 7: To Slim alone and I said, I said, Slim, why
• 2:23:55
  Speaker 7: didn't you tell me that this brother in law that
• 2:23:57
  Speaker 7: you've been telling me about that you just introduced me
• 2:24:00
  Speaker 7: to U was also anti Kennedy as.
• 2:24:03
  Speaker 1: I was at the time.
• 2:24:04
  Speaker 5: And Slim said, my name is Slim, not Screwge. I
• 2:24:08
  Speaker 5: didn't want to spoil the surprise.
• 2:24:11
  Speaker 6: Mhm.
• 2:24:15
  Speaker 2: So there you have it, the short version of a
• 2:24:19
  Speaker 2: much longer series of interviews with Carrie Thornley. Uh. We
• 2:24:25
  Speaker 2: may watch some more next Members only show, yeah, just
• 2:24:30
  Speaker 2: to get a better feel for this guy. But as
• 2:24:32
  Speaker 2: you can see, I mean, at this point in his life, Joe,
• 2:24:35
  Speaker 2: He's not coming across as a crazy, acid soak lunatic,
• 2:24:43
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean.
• 2:24:48
  Speaker 6: What's the warrnt off by then?
• 2:24:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah? The sad ending to all this is that six
• 2:24:55
  Speaker 2: years after this interview he would end up dead, homeless, Atlanta, Georgia,
• 2:25:01
  Speaker 2: destitute and alone. Yes, yes, which is not a good
• 2:25:08
  Speaker 2: ending for anybody, let alone somebody like Carrie Thornley. Yeah,
• 2:25:17
  Speaker 2: so very stand ending to a very complicated, intriguing, chaotic
• 2:25:26
  Speaker 2: Discordian life. Dude.
• 2:25:28
  Speaker 6: Yeah, And one more thing I want to add, because
• 2:25:30
  Speaker 6: I just asked Rock this really quickly. E Howard Hunt
• 2:25:35
  Speaker 6: service began shortly after Pearl Harbor and involved a progression
• 2:25:41
  Speaker 6: from naval duties to intelligent work US Navy forty one
• 2:25:45
  Speaker 6: to forty three in the Pacific theater. His role included
• 2:25:50
  Speaker 6: anti submarine warfare, and that would line up with what
• 2:25:57
  Speaker 6: he just said in that little clip has played there, aside.
• 2:26:01
  Speaker 2: From being bold at the time, which of course could
• 2:26:04
  Speaker 2: have been a disguise, right right, of course. Uh, you know,
• 2:26:09
  Speaker 2: I don't think he met him that often, so you know, but.
• 2:26:15
  Speaker 6: It lines ups who knows, but Carrie Thornley fascinating character.
• 2:26:25
  Speaker 6: Definitely more involved with Oswalt or using the Oswalt name
• 2:26:32
  Speaker 6: then I think he let on and his Garrison grand
• 2:26:37
  Speaker 6: jury testimony. Don't think he was involved in the assassination,
• 2:26:41
  Speaker 6: but still that's.
• 2:26:43
  Speaker 2: Kind of my But later in life he was convinced
• 2:26:47
  Speaker 2: that he was right involved, unwittingly somehow right, which is
• 2:26:56
  Speaker 2: still last year. But uh, you know, it's just that's
• 2:27:02
  Speaker 2: the crazy, crazy life of Carrie Wendell Thornley, and I
• 2:27:07
  Speaker 2: would highly recommend, Like I said, there's two links below
• 2:27:11
  Speaker 2: in the description for his books, and also head to
• 2:27:18
  Speaker 2: Amazon search up Carrie Thornley and you'll quickly find Adam
• 2:27:22
  Speaker 2: go Rightley's book books, The Prankster and the Conspiracy, which
• 2:27:29
  Speaker 2: is all about Carrie Wendell Thornley and Oswald and a
• 2:27:37
  Speaker 2: lot of it goes a lot more in depth with
• 2:27:40
  Speaker 2: Wendell's involvement in Discordianism and the acid scene or whatever
• 2:27:48
  Speaker 2: you want to call it, the counterculture scene. I highly recommend.
• 2:27:56
  Speaker 2: Like I said, I think Adam go Rightly is one
• 2:28:01
  Speaker 2: of the best living examples of some of these, and
• 2:28:09
  Speaker 2: his other book is called Caught in the Crossfire. Carrie Thornley,
• 2:28:15
  Speaker 2: Oswald and The Garrison Investigation, published in twenty fourteen. That
• 2:28:20
  Speaker 2: book is also on Amazon as well, and highly recommend
• 2:28:25
  Speaker 2: Adam's work. It's fantastic. I've had him on the show
• 2:28:28
  Speaker 2: and I wish I could remember the exact episode numbers
• 2:28:32
  Speaker 2: that you can go back, but just go back and
• 2:28:34
  Speaker 2: look for him. They're there.
• 2:28:35
  Speaker 6: Yeah, just google it, you'll find it.
• 2:28:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, that being said, Joe, grab the damn dog
• 2:28:43
  Speaker 2: or try to.
• 2:28:44
  Speaker 6: I'm going to have to physically.
• 2:28:45
  Speaker 2: Do it, all right, folks. That's the Friday episode.
• 2:28:54
  Speaker 9: That's Carrie Thornley and this has been the lone Cooming
• 2:28:58
  Speaker 9: podcast Live with you here on Friday with Joe Burreller, Live.
• 2:29:04
  Speaker 2: And living color and Lovely Ruby. Joe must have woken
• 2:29:10
  Speaker 2: up from the napp.
• 2:29:12
  Speaker 6: He was definitely not.
• 2:29:13
  Speaker 2: It looks a little prince.
• 2:29:16
  Speaker 9: Thanks folks for hanging out with us, and uh, we're
• 2:29:19
  Speaker 9: going to be back to the usual schedule of things.
• 2:29:23
  Speaker 5: I believe.
• 2:29:26
  Speaker 9: We'll get back to the book review before the next
• 2:29:29
  Speaker 9: Wednesday show. And thank you folks for all your great
• 2:29:33
  Speaker 9: input to the show and your questions. They were great,
• 2:29:38
  Speaker 9: and uh, the information that you guys came forward with
• 2:29:41
  Speaker 9: is great.
• 2:29:42
  Speaker 6: Yes, this was a fun one.
• 2:29:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you know, you keep us laughing. So
• 2:29:50
  Speaker 2: we appreciate everything. Thanks to the Double B and Greg
• 2:29:53
  Speaker 2: for the super chats and uh the membership gifts. We
• 2:29:58
  Speaker 2: love it when that happens. And we'll see you sometime
• 2:30:04
  Speaker 2: next week when the book review drops, and then definitely
• 2:30:07
  Speaker 2: on Wednesday, and we'll be recording quick Hits this weekend,
• 2:30:12
  Speaker 2: so look for that to probably come out on Monday.
• 2:30:15
  Speaker 2: I'm guessing it all goes well according to plan, which
• 2:30:20
  Speaker 2: sometimes it doesn't, but be looking for it where that
• 2:30:25
  Speaker 2: we're out. I'm Rob Clark, He's Joe Borelli.
• 2:30:28
  Speaker 6: Peace, Peace, guys, thank you for joining us.