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Trekking for the Mountain Gorillas · GowayPro Travel Tales

0:00
Hey there everyone, I'm Don, Professor Goay and welcome to the GoayPro Travel Tale podcast.
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Travel far and gravel often.
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We're to talk rules.
0:18
Hello everyone.
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Welcome to the GoayPro Travel Tales podcast.
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Today, I am an Aussie guy sitting here in Toronto.
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speaking to an English woman sitting in Johannesburg who looks after ah guerrilla trekking in Uganda and Rwanda.
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And that lady I'm referring to in Joberg is Debbie Addison.
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And alongside her is her daughter, Semleke Addison as well.
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ah And we are going to talk all things guerrilla trekking today in Rwanda and Uganda.
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So welcome to you both.
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And if you haven't made the obvious connection, Debbie is a pod of Semleki.
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uh So let me ask this question first.
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Debbie, you're from the UK.
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We've had this conversation before.
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Your daughter Semleki, were you born in the UK?
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Were you born in South Africa?
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Where were you born?
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I was born in Johannesburg, left here my whole life.
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So I guess a, well maybe not an obvious question, but a question for me is your name, Semeliki.
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ah It's not obviously English, it doesn't sound very South African.
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ah What are the origins of your name?
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It's from Uganda, actually.
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It's a name of a national park there and a forest and a river.
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um And it means place of wilderness in an Icelandic
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That's cool.
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So Debbie, that your and your husband's, well, obviously it was your and your husband's idea.
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Is there a reason for that?
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it because of the connection you have with Uganda through your operations and the guerrilla tracking?
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Yeah.
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Actually, uh I can't lay claim to the name.
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John decided that that would be her name.
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I was in hospital and couldn't go anywhere at this stage.
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So he went and registered the name.
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But yeah, I mean, it's just a nice sounding name.
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We do have close connections to Uganda.
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So yeah, it just seemed appropriate at the time and something different.
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Okay, so I'm going to ask you this question because my oldest son, his name is Sale, S-A-E-L, which is a different name.
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And we've often asked him, you you mad at us because we named you that.
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And he goes, no, no, I really liked the name.
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It's as far as we know, it's somewhat unique.
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We just found out a friend of ours have named their daughter Sale.
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That's the only other sale we know of.
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So I'm going to ask you, do you like your name?
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Is it unusual within South Africa, that name?
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It's very unusual.
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Even when I was in Uganda, the people were like, you know, there's a Semleki in Uganda.
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And I was like, yeah, I'm named after that.
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So people I think don't expect it to be a name.
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uh Growing up, it wasn't my favorite.
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But now that I'm an adult, and I can appreciate the journey that my life is taking me on.
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And my parents too.
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Yeah, I do.
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I love it.
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I wouldn't
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Yeah, again, I say this with hindsight and having met Debbie over the last few years, like with what your parents do and the fact you're exposed to that, I think it's a very
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appropriate name.
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again, m so as an Aussie as well, often shorten names.
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So is that the same in South Africa?
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Do South Africans have a lot of nicknames for people like Aussies do?
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They'll either turn into a nickname or shorten a word.
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Is that a South African thing?
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think so.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean, my, name is Sammy.
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So.
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There we go.
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That was my question.
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Yeah, and yeah, that's at least all it's gone to.
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I don't know if you have any fun nicknames,
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Fair enough.
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Okay.
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So as I said, we're going to discuss guerrilla trekking in uh Uganda and Rwanda.
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So Debbie, can you give us a bit of a background to how you got involved in that aspect of your business within, well, your base in South Africa, where you both are now in
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Johannesburg, but your operations are up that way.
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So how did you get involved with the countries in question?
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And then in turn, I guess it's a natural progression, tourism equals for the most part, guerrillas in those two countries.
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Well, John and I actually traveled up through into central and East Africa in 1991.
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And we did our first guerrilla trekking then, ironically in the DRC.
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um
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And then we traveled from there through into Uganda.
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that point in time, Rwanda was not open for tourism.
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So, yeah, we spent a bit of time in the destination and the region, a couple of months, in fact.
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And when we got back to Johannesburg,
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wearing our business hats, we decided it would be great to start promoting the destination a couple of years later when they started opening up for tourism.
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And yeah, that's sort of where the concept of selling gorilla safaris started.
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Back in those days, things were, let's say tourism was very young and we struggled to find partners on the ground that would operate the safaris to the standard that we were looking
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for.
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So um we sort bit the bullet and started up in Uganda and um yeah, very modest beginnings.
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uh We had an old Land Cruiser we took up there.
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We brought Paul Goldring into the business and he came along with his trailer and his camping kit and that's where we started as a camping operator.
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Over the years, obviously things have changed a lot.
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got lodges and camps and so forth up there.
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But yeah, that's how we started some 26 or 7 years ago now.
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Yeah.
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did the, I did the guerrilla tracking forever ago as well, probably around late eighties, early nineties, I think as well.
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and it was, you know, it was rustic.
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think you just described it yourself.
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It was rustic and tourism was not, um, as developed as it obviously is now.
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When you, when you and John looked at setting up a, an operation there, surely, and you know, taking the guerrillas aside,
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And I can't remember exactly, but I know back in the 80s and 90s, Rwanda and Uganda in that area of, guess, somewhat central Africa or middle to central Africa uh was one, very
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little was known about it.
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And two, what was known about it probably wasn't the most positive ah news coming out of that region.
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So did you see it as a gamble to set up a tourism operation in that area?
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So to be honest with you, it didn't really occur to us.
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It was just that we we saw a destination that was, you know, worthwhile exploring and looking into because particularly John, he's he's very much averse to ordinary.
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So, yeah, I guess that's where it started.
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And, you know, going in initially with just vehicles and equipment that you can literally drive back out again, your risk is is little in terms of.
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um
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you know, in terms of your investment.
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Over the years, the business has sort of grown through self, you know, as we've grown it, it's sort of organically grown over the years.
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But yeah, yes, guess there's always a risk in Africa and certainly places like that, which were not terribly well known from Southern Africa, at least.
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I know when we first went there, we went in with some South Africa.
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friends who flew in and joined us in Gorma in DRC or Zaire as it was back then and we really battled to get them into Uganda.
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South Africans at that point in time were not welcome so yeah it was I guess it was a bit of a risk but it's obviously proven to be a good one.
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Yeah, for sure.
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So semi growing up in this environment of your parents um having a tour operation, what a lot of, not Westerners, but people in North America for sure would find very, very exotic,
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Africa in general, but particularly the area in which your mother and dad were operating.
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And I bring this up as well, because obviously GoWay is a family run business and the owners, two kids are involved in the running of the company today.
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So what are your recollections of life growing up in that environment, particularly?
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when it came to the fact that it was those countries in question and gorillas were sort of the thing.
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ah I think when you're a child, ignorance is bliss a bit.
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ah To be honest, I couldn't tell you what the political climate or any uh sense of fear would have been for any of these trips at the age that I was, but I was super fortunate.
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I realized that as I grew up that a lot of my friends would go on holiday to Kruger National Park or to Durban.
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And if I was going...
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I've been to Uganda and Tanzania.
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So I had a very privileged upbringing.
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We went on a lot of adventures and actually the first time I saw a silverback gorilla, I was doing a lodge inspection.
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Well, I wasn't, they were doing a lodge inspection and we came walking down the stairs to go to one of the rooms and there was a silverback sitting on the pathway of this lodge.
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And I must've been about 10 years old.
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So too young to trick and yeah, it was amazing.
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And that's...
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Yeah, the privileges of growing up in a travel family.
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So I guess, you, I think you mentioned earlier, like it's just as you grew up, like you don't know anything else because that's what you're exposed to.
9:47
So um let me ask you this then, to either of you, but more so to Sammy, as you were growing up, you mentioned your friends would be going to Kruger or Durban or somewhere
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within South Africa, not Southern Africa.
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Do South Africans look to Eastern Africa as a...
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as exotically as a North American would, or is it just another part of Africa?
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I guess my question is, with such a rich wildlife backyard in southern Africa, because just outside the south you have Namibia and Botswana, of course, ah when you look further
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afield, in the continent of Africa, is it exotic to go to Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda or Wanda, from an average South Africans point of view?
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Yeah, definitely.
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It's definitely a bucket list holiday for a lot of people that I know.
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uh A lot of my friends' parents haven't even gone to these places and they obviously would, they keep saying how much they would love to.
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And um I definitely think that South Africans, because we love safaris and all of that, well, most of us, the people at least that I surround myself with, it is a highlight and I
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think
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an exotic and adventurous place to go.
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um And I think everybody wants to do it.
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Yeah, just like an Aussie would not travel to another country to see kangaroo type thing.
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I guess this is the joy of Africa.
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It's the continent.
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It's similar, but there is vast differences even across the border.
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Like if we stick to Southern Africa, obviously South Africa with Kruger in particular, it's famous for its wildlife.
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But then you've got Namibia, is not all, but desert is a big highlight.
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The Delta.
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is all the waterborne safari activities as well.
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So I guess there is enough difference within the continent.
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And that's even without getting into Northern Africa as well.
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um You mentioned when you set up that it was rustic.
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um There have been some major political upheavals in that region over the years.
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So, but today, though, um Uganda is as popular probably, gorillas aside, uh as its big neighbors, Kenya and Tanzania,
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um So what did you see over the years as tourism grew?
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Like why did it grow?
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Was it because it was it literally off the back of the gorillas that opened up Uganda and Rwanda do you think?
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Personally, yes, I do believe that's true.
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um
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you know, the highlight for a lot of people, or sorry, when people design itineraries or safaris, they obviously want to see the big five.
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And then they sort of figure that while they're in that neck of the woods, you know, why not go and do your guerrilla trekking at the same time?
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There's some pros and cons with that sort of train of thought.
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It's obviously fabulous to sort of see two bucket list areas in one trip.
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But both Uganda and Rwanda are very
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much standalone destinations.
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So they've both got really good quality wildlife, game viewing, a safari circuit.
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They also have the added bonus of chimpanzees.
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So, you know, you can see the big five in either destination, plus your, you know, your iconic species of primates and monkeys and birds.
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You know, so there's an awful lot more going for these areas than just gorillas, but you're actually 100 % right, Don.
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The guerrilla trekking has of course been the main focus that sort of the two countries have developed their tourism product off the back of and of Dian Fossey made gorillas
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quite famous you know 30 years ago particularly with the movie and so forth, Gorillas in the Mist.
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So you know there's all of those elements involved but it definitely has come off the back of guerrilla trekking in my personal opinion.
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Where was Jane Goodall and her research base?
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she in Uganda or was she more at in East Africa, Tanzania, Kenya?
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than Tanzania.
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Yeah, Tanzania, it's called Gombe Stream on Tanganyika.
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She was also um very much involved in, there's an island in Uganda on Lake Victoria called Ngamba Island, which is an orphanage for chimpanzees, which she was very much involved
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with setting up.
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And there's other places in West Africa that also, you know, her involvement in has helped.
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create orphanages and places of sanctuary for chimps.
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Wildlife is under threat all over the place, so you have to have these people to actually establish certain species.
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sure.
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We will get into the details of uh of Gorilla Trekking Optimus in a minute.
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You mentioned Rwanda and Uganda offer a safari circuit experience where you can see the Big 5 Plus obviously chimps which you don't often see elsewhere and of course the
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gorillas.
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Comparatively speaking excluding gorilla permits which we'll touch on in a minute.
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Are Uganda and Rwanda more expensive than its big neighbors?
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Are they less touristed outside of guerrilla trekking?
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So obviously guerrilla trekking is very popular, but if someone chose to trek with the guerrillas, then do their safari.
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Would they find their experience less touristed or maybe not less touristed with less travelers?
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Yes, and interestingly, uh I don't believe Rwanda or Uganda will ever become uh high density tourism destinations.
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I could be completely wrong, but most people will go there and include guerrilla trekking in their safari.
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And of course, guerrilla permits are limited by numbers.
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So you've immediately got a limitation of the number of guests coming in on a daily basis.
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because there's only X amount of permits available in each destination.
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um And then, as you say, people will spill over on safaris.
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Yes, of course, there's other people going there for fishing or birding, just hiking, walking, cultural tourism, all of those things as well.
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But I would say that the bottleneck of permit numbers will always limit the volume of tourism that we're starting to see in the rest of the world, not just Africa.
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Let's be honest, it's everywhere.
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Well, and that's why I bring up that comparison because people are starting to look for spots where there is less people going to visit, which is becoming more and more
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difficult.
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Africa in general is one of those areas.
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So that's a good little thing for our travel partners out there to keep in mind that if you're trying to direct your clients to or your clients are asking for somewhere where
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they can see the expected and maybe the unexpected, being gorillas, cetera.
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then look at Rwanda, Uganda for that option where it might be a little bit quieter, keeping in mind the guerrilla limit numbers, which we'll touch on in a minute.
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Sammy, one thing I didn't ask when we were doing sort of informal introductions, you're sitting there with your mom, you're off screen on my viewer at the moment, but I think you
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probably have the same shirt on that your mother has, which leads to my question.
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Are you part of the business now?
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Like, are you working with your mom and dad?
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work officially in our marketing and sales department.
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I actually trained as a lawyer and I am a qualified lawyer.
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um But yeah, that life wasn't suited to me.
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Well, that decision obviously flows very nicely with your name then.
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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So do you bring any of your law skills to your parents' business or to your business now, I guess?
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a little bit.
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you know, it always comes in handy critical thinking as well.
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I think just never goes, you know, to waste.
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Being a lawyer taught me a lot of uh life skills, and a lot about business, which I think is super helpful.
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So yes, I would say overall, in general, I do sometimes I review some contracts every now and again.
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So yeah, it happens.
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You're keeping your fingers in the lawyer pie, so to speak.
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You have a rambling question, I guess, for both of you, Semi Azzer, a qualified lawyer, and Debbie is running your business.
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Is it difficult to set up a tourism business in South Africa or Africa in general?
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Is it crazy red tape?
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Is it just standard red tape for a business?
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Like what funny things have you run into, I guess, from a legal point of view in your business?
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I'm going to say, uh fortunately and unfortunately, there's not a lot of red tape.
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know, certain things need to be done properly.
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And I think good quality operators will always ensure that they have the correct insurance liabilities, factors are checked properly, vehicles are fully roadworthy and so on and so
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forth.
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and staff are trained and qualified on all of those things.
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And you can belong to a variety of different organizations to sort of help you on the marketing and awareness and so forth within the industry.
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In the actual destination, obviously you have to have proper licenses, be tax registered and all of those things.
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uh
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are fully and correctly managed in both destinations or in fact pretty much throughout the whole of Africa.
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Public driving permits and things like that.
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So all of those things are done correctly.
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Sadly, there are always a few people that fly underneath the radar.
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But I think you'll find that most operators in Africa are properly qualified.
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But it's always worthwhile doing your homework.
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Yeah, for sure.
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And that's who we go away only works with certified, know, bonded, etc.
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operators, which obviously you guys are.
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I didn't ask that.
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I didn't ask that question to segue this way.
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But as you were answering, I thought, okay, this is a nice segue.
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So going back to Diane Fosse and using Gorillaz in the Mist as a reference, which I know it's a Hollywood film.
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So there is some artistic license was taken there.
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But still, the crux of her life was she discovered the gorillas.
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They were being wiped out basically by encroachment and poaching.
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She started, you know, fighting for them.
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So from a structure or legality, how have things changed from the Wild West where there was no actual organized guerrilla tracking and protection to now?
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So this goes back, I guess, into not maybe not so much the legal side of it, but you the sanction side and the control side.
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So can you maybe from a logistics point of view or a quick little
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Capital history, so to speak.
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And then what are the structured logistics now?
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If someone comes to Goaway and they ask about tracking to see the grillers, what's involved here?
21:22
Well, to go back to the sort of general structure on the ground, so to speak, in both areas and also DRC for that matter, gorilla numbers, which is very encouraging, the actual
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population has increased, the numbers of gorillas.
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So that's a good sign.
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So the way the region tends to work, it's managed by the uh various government bodies or national parks, you know, for a sort of...
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a general collective description.
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There's a specific amount of permits available to see a family each day and there are a number of abiturated families in each region.
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oh
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From a uh structural point of view, the numbers are limited.
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You always go in with a qualified guide and his or her assistance.
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It creates employment for porters and their families as well, because porters will often carry guests' backpack or cameras or just be there to help them or whatever.
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So you are creating great work opportunities around the guerrilla trek itself.
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So commercially,
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as Jonathan says, you know, spread the happiness and that's definitely happening on the ground.
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Obviously a chunk of the money goes to the government and then a portion of it will stay with the people who live there in that area.
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So it's really in their best interest to...
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after the gorillas and make sure that their habitat is looked after, of course over recent years has always been the main factor of gorillas being under threat.
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So you're seeing a lot of reforestation in some areas.
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Private companies are starting to get involved in that as well as naturally the local people will do that too.
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So all of these things are very
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positive for the future of the gorillas.
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And, you know, we are seeing an increase in numbers in both Rwanda and in Uganda.
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Currently DRC, unfortunately, they're sort of...
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the numbers and the of the data coming out of there is not necessarily very accurate at the moment.
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But hopefully, you know, the gorillas are surviving through the local troubles.
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But yeah, it's quite a positive thing.
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it's like, yeah, everything is going back into the success of the primates and they are...
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When I say continually, what will happen is you will have a large family.
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They will have offspring and then you'll end up with silverbacks in there.
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So maybe a silverback will break away and form his own family.
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So you're sort of getting a continual increase on triple families as well, which is also an interesting thing.
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So, yeah, it's good and very, very positive.
24:25
And I believe that when you, it a, is it a troop of gorillas?
24:30
What's the, what's the collective terminology for gorillas?
24:34
uh
24:39
think they call them families.
24:40
Well, they do call them families.
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I don't know if troopers also the right word.
24:44
okay.
24:44
Sure enough.
24:45
So ah I understand these families um of gorillas, they're not just in Rwanda, they're not just in Uganda or the DRC, they roam back and forth because I believe there are national
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parks which are but each other on the border.
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So these are not like, they're not like Ugandan gorillas or Rwandan gorillas, are families of gorillas moving back and forth amongst this larger area.
25:08
Is that correct?
25:10
Yes and no.
25:10
There's one park that does sit on the.
25:13
on the boundary.
25:15
It's called Megahinga, which is predominantly on the Uganda side and the families there used to cross the border.
25:23
I'm not sure whether they still are, but yeah, that's the only park that I'm aware of that the gorillas moved between the two because unfortunately the parks have sort of been
25:35
separated from each other over the years with villages and roads and things like that.
25:42
Natural traversing has been chopped up over the years, but the gorillas still have a massive area to roam in and reproduce and so forth.
25:52
So, yeah, there is separation as such.
25:56
And of course, there's also gorillas up in Central Africa, Africa Republic and up in that part of the world as well.
26:04
So you've got a different type of gorilla up there, which is also quite an interesting.
26:11
area to go to.
26:13
Okay, interesting.
26:14
So Semmy, I understand you were actually on a trek recently to see the gorillas.
26:17
So just touching on your mum's points there of how they are generally staying within the man-made geographical borders.
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um Nothing's guaranteed with wildlife, but pretty much if you book a uh trekking experience, you will probably see the gorillas.
26:38
So.
26:39
Two questions for you.
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One, how far do they roam day to day?
26:42
Because I know, I think almost every day someone's groups are going in to see them.
26:47
So they're tracked, like they're not tracked with GPS or anything, but the local guides sort of know where they're going.
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How far do they move on average on a daily basis?
26:56
And can you just give um our listeners a rough idea of, you know, from the morning, from the time you show up to do your trek, what happens?
27:04
m How does it actually, how does it roll out for the traveler?
27:09
Yeah, sure.
27:10
the in terms of the exact, like, square kilometers of how far they move, I don't know an exact number, but I do know that sometimes on people's tricks, you can walk six, seven,
27:24
eight kilometers just following them in the hour that you're with them.
27:28
So they can they can.
27:31
They obviously have their set
27:33
like family regions, they have their territories that they live within, um the same as any big game would.
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uh And so they kind of stick to their area.
27:44
And that's why, like you said, it's quite guaranteed.
27:47
Not obviously nothing in Africa is but it's pretty guaranteed that you will see them um because the trackers know their family whereabouts and they basically spend a lot of time
27:57
with them.
27:58
And yeah, so you can have families that have moved
28:04
from the morning into the, like into the, by the time you find them, they'll have walked a couple of kilometres.
28:10
Or you can have a family that stays put and they're a kilometre into the forest and then you trek them.
28:18
And yeah, from my perspective of my lived experience, we arrived at the, so we drove to the meeting point and we met up with the
28:30
guides and everything, you kind of do a sign in process, uh sign your liabilities.
28:39
then we went and sat in the welcoming area and actually had some of the local village guys come and do a dance for us.
28:47
And they sang and it was really cool as like a welcome.
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And then while we were sitting there, then eventually they move off and your guide comes and he introduces himself and he starts telling you about the family that you're going to
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trick.
28:59
He gives you the name and he shows you all the gorillas and all the names that they have.
29:04
They all look very similar.
29:05
So I don't know how these guys identify them, but they all have personalities.
29:10
And he was telling us all about this one's the friendly one and this one's the cheeky one and all of that.
29:16
So that was really nice.
29:17
And then he tells you the rules of your trick.
29:20
And then from there, you get back into your safari vehicle and you drive to the closest point to where the gorillas have been seen.
29:29
according to the tracker.
29:30
So the trackers go out first super early in the morning, like at daybreak to find the gorillas for you.
29:35
And then you catch up to them with your guide.
29:39
Use radios and all of that.
29:41
So then you get there, you walk into, our trek was quite short.
29:44
I think it was about, I think it was just under a kilometer to get to the gorilla family.
29:49
Still pretty strenuous because the paths that you follow are very muddy and quite very, very steep.
29:56
Like if you take the wrong step, you'll just go.
29:58
tumbling down a hill.
30:00
But it was a nice walk.
30:02
We actually followed an elephant path, which was really cool.
30:05
So that was added a little bit of excitement to our trek.
30:09
And then once you get to the gorillas, they tell you to put your masks on once they've found the family.
30:14
And then they re-debrief you on the rules.
30:18
Stay this far away from the gorillas.
30:21
Don't reach your hands out.
30:23
Don't use flash photography, all of those sorts of things.
30:26
And then you go in and you follow the lead tracker.
30:30
So he's the guy who's closest with the gorilla family.
30:33
So then you'll follow him and he'll tell you where to stand or sit or, you know, and all around you.
30:40
It's quite amazing.
30:40
So when we walked in, the first gorilla we saw was like lying, a silverback.
30:45
was lying in the, he's very cute and he's lying on his back with his feet in the air.
30:49
And then...
30:50
next minute a baby just like pops down next to you from the tree and you're like, my gosh.
30:54
And then if you like close your eyes, you can just hear noise all around you.
30:58
And it's the gorillas all like grunting and talking to each other.
31:01
And yeah, and then you get to spend an incredibly beautiful hour with these amazing human creatures who I swear can speak English.
31:14
And then they go, okay, time to leave.
31:16
And then you leave.
31:19
You slowly walk back out, marvelling at what you've just done.
31:23
Amazing.
31:27
Interaction with them as in you touching them is obviously a big no-no.
31:31
It doesn't happen.
31:32
I've seen some videos of late now again.
31:34
I've seen them late.
31:35
I don't know how old they may be.
31:36
They look somewhat recent.
31:38
If a baby gorilla comes up and starts grabbing your bag or touching you, is that allowed or does the tracker separate you in that instance?
31:47
If the gorillas approach you, the trackers tend to tell you to step back or move out their way, especially the babies.
31:55
The babies are quite curious, but the problem with the babies being curious is that the mothers can be protective.
32:01
So they will try to avoid any human contact.
32:05
If they can, obviously sometimes things just happen and you can't, you know, but yeah, they'll try to pull the gorilla away from...
32:12
I've also seen a video of a girl's hair being played with.
32:15
So I tied my hair up into a tight bun.
32:17
because I didn't want to like entice a baby gorilla.
32:20
But I did actually have a gorilla kind of like a little baby one was playing and as he ran past me, I moved out of his way, but he just decided he really wanted to just give me a
32:30
shot.
32:32
Me as he ran past and the tracker obviously was like, are you okay?
32:36
You okay?
32:36
And I was like, No, no, I'm fine.
32:37
That was quite cool.
32:38
And he's like, yeah, the juveniles like to play.
32:41
So they that's how they play with each other.
32:43
So but yes, you try and move out their way.
32:47
Do the trackers and guides, do they work with the same family of grillers each time?
32:53
So each day they go out, they're going to the same family and in turn, if that's a yes to that question, do the griller families know these trackers and guides?
33:03
Like I would assume that that is one of the barriers that makes the grillers feel comfortable because it's a familiar face coming their way.
33:12
Is that right?
33:14
believe.
33:14
So I think that they do track the same the trackers, I think definitely track the same families.
33:21
Your guide might be a different guide per family, obviously based on like, leave cycles and all that sort of stuff.
33:29
But they, they talk to them and like they know their names and yeah, they like, yeah, they do definitely have relationships and they know which gorillas are comfortable with you
33:41
being closer or further away or
33:44
Yeah, so I definitely do think that they stick to a family.
33:48
So not that I haven't heard of any negative encounters with uh with gorillas, but I would assume that, well, naturally, by all accounts, the gorilla families are very at ease with
34:01
people coming to or not interact, but to see them.
34:04
So it's as you see on most videos, they're just you're in their world.
34:09
They're just doing their thing.
34:10
They're not really that fuss for the most part.
34:12
And as you say, sadly, an hour later, you have to leave.
34:16
Yeah, I did.
34:17
felt like that.
34:18
feel like they, they, they know what's the right word.
34:23
If you follow the rules, then they feel comfortable with your presence.
34:28
You know, it's the same as if you saw like a stray dog, you wouldn't try to touch it.
34:32
It's going to shy away from your hand.
34:35
they, as long as you keep the distance that the tracker tells you to and kind of like, be quiet and respectful, then yeah, they are they tend to be quite comfortable.
34:45
And if they're not comfortable, you're not surrounding them, right?
34:48
You're not like sitting in a circle with a gorilla in the middle.
34:50
You sit to the one side.
34:52
So if they want to move, they just move.
34:56
And then you don't follow them, right?
34:58
After they've moved, you're like, okay, you obviously don't want a person near you right now.
35:02
And we go to gorilla.
35:03
Yeah.
35:05
Okay, so Debbie on some technical questions that I have and sure some of our travel professionals may get from their clients out there.
35:14
uh Sammy mentioned her trek was about a kilometer in.
35:19
So that was, I guess, one of the shorter trips you can end up taking longer.
35:24
I know I've heard people like, actually, one of the girls here at Go-Away, uh Alice, she did it four or five years ago.
35:31
actually track for all of like 10 or 15 minutes and bang, there was the grillers.
35:35
I've heard other people trekking two or three hours.
35:37
ah Sammy mentioned the conditions can be quite steep, quite slippery.
35:42
physical ability to see the grillers, ah I understand, well, I know from my history, even with climate change, sure it's the same.
35:51
It can be very, very warm.
35:53
So can you just touch on physical abilities to do this?
35:56
ah What type of clothing you should pack with you?
36:01
Simi mentioned wearing masks at the actual interaction point.
36:05
ah They used to do health checks.
36:08
know that even pre-COVID they do maybe a quick health check before you went up.
36:11
Is any of that still part of the experience?
36:16
Yes, so if you do happen to arrive in the destination and you've got a bad flu or cold or something like that, it really is incumbent on the guest to declare it and not go in
36:31
because they are susceptible to human diseases and viruses and things like that, which is why obviously we wear masks.
36:40
So, yeah, that sort of thing.
36:43
Sure.
36:44
you could hide it, really you shouldn't.
36:47
You should really just, you know, the bullet and be responsible.
36:54
When you actually do the trek, the family that you end up trekking, which you will know, um not the exact family, but you'll know the region you're going into when you book.
37:07
As you probably know, there's four different regions in the Bwindi area.
37:12
There's uh
37:13
effectively one big area in Rwanda and the trekking conditions can vary from region to region and also family to family.
37:23
for example, um Sem actually trekked in Roheja, which is known to be quite a steep area.
37:32
It's also amazing for birding.
37:34
So, know, pros and cons of everything, I guess.
37:37
So her pathways were probably a bit steeper than some of the other areas.
37:42
Bahoma area, for example, it's a mountain, of course, but the pathways are a lot easier.
37:51
And when you go in and do your trek, to start with, you will follow designated paths.
37:57
It's only when you start getting really close to the family, then you start going off the paths and the guys go in with machetes and they chop the bush a little bit so you can get
38:05
through there.
38:07
So.
38:08
One of the things you mentioned or asked was, you know, how to prepare what to wear and all that sort of thing.
38:14
I'm going to say any reasonably fit walking, hiking person can cope with gorillas.
38:22
I would always recommend a walking pole or ski stick or something like that just to steady yourself a little bit or even just to move some branches out the way which you get when
38:33
you're there.
38:34
Okay, good.
38:36
You are trekking in a rain forest and typically the mornings are not too bad but you're never quite sure how long you're going to be out there for so you would take with you a
38:46
small day pack for your lunch, some water, camera and maybe a lightweight rain jacket.
38:54
On you, would wear preferably hiking boots, not hiking trainers or whatever you'd call them.
39:03
So you'd have a bit of an ankle support as well.
39:08
long pants with preferably a set of gaiters just so that when you're standing around if there's any biting insects and that sort of thing they're not going to get into your shoe.
39:17
And also, you know, you don't want to be stopping and pulling things out of your boot every five minutes.
39:23
So a gaiter is very helpful and you can get those there as well.
39:27
And then a long sleeve, lightweight
39:31
and I'm going to say old shirt.
39:33
Don't buy new kit for this because it can be quite muddy and things like that, especially when you get off the main path.
39:40
So long pants, long sleeve shirt and some old gardening gloves.
39:45
Because again, when you're off the main pathways, you might grab onto a branch and it might have uh stinging nettles or little thorns or something like that.
39:54
So a pair of gloves is quite nice for moving around in the sort of thicker bush.
39:59
Cameras.
40:00
Gosh, professional photographers like to go there in a slightly rainier season from a point of view of sometimes when you're in the forest and the gorillas are sitting in a bit
40:14
of a clearing, they can get quite a lot of dappled bright light and then dark patches on them.
40:19
So if you've got a bit of cloud cover, it softens the light.
40:22
Obviously if it's very cloudy, then it does make it somewhat challenging.
40:27
But something like that.
40:29
I mean these days most people just use their phones, regular tourists, but we do take quite a few professional photographers along as well and even photographically guided
40:40
groups.
40:41
know, photographing in a forest is quite different to out in the open.
40:45
So that's quite a skill.
40:47
And I would say just on that, the packing, if you're going to pack a camera, I would take a shorter lens.
40:53
A lot of guys did come in with big lenses, which just they're just heavy and it's hard to like, walk with a big lens and the gorillas are so close to you that like a big lens is
41:03
very pointless.
41:04
makes sense.
41:05
for sure.
41:07
so obviously, yeah, go on.
41:09
No, after you.
41:12
No, I was just going to say, because you're in a rainforest, obviously, things like cameras and stuff like that put into a plastic bag.
41:18
Yeah.
41:19
uh
41:23
m On something you brought up there, you take in photography groups.
41:26
ah So two questions on that.
41:29
um One, obviously group travel for the gorillas is a big thing, particularly if you're within a photography group or something like that.
41:37
So as an extension to that statement, ah what are the group sizes when trekking to see a family of gorillas?
41:44
Is it 10 to a group?
41:45
Is it more?
41:46
Is it less?
41:47
It's actually less, it's currently eight guests to one gorilla family.
41:55
So if a photography group came along and they had say 20 or 30 people or any group of any description, you would naturally break them down into smaller groups and they would go off
42:05
and visit different family groups on that particular day.
42:10
Yeah, so and again if people want to check more than once which we do really recommend you going all that way just to go
42:16
That was my next question.
42:17
Yeah.
42:19
No, it's, you know, if you can track twice time and budget permitting, it's really, really worth it.
42:26
But, even if
42:29
Sorry, trekking twice would not be the same day to be the next day to do your second or you can do it on the same day.
42:35
No, no, it's normally the next day.
42:38
You may or may not see the same family.
42:42
Often it's nice to see a different family, but even if you do see the same family, for whatever reason, you know, the experience is always going to be different.
42:51
No two days are ever the same.
42:52
It doesn't even matter if it's the same guerrilla family.
42:56
So that's, it's quite, it's quite nice.
42:58
And if you trick twice as well, the second time you actually, you sit there and you enjoy the gorillas.
43:03
You're not trying to take a hundred pictures and so forth of the family interacting.
43:09
And as Sen was saying, you surround it.
43:12
So if you're looking through a lens the whole time, you miss out what's going on right, left and behind you.
43:17
Whereas if you sit and observe them,
43:20
and not get too fixated on photographing or videoing, you really do enjoy the experience a little bit.
43:27
That's a valid point in general for any experience.
43:35
When I was a tour guide, I'd often tell, particularly things like the Inca Trail or things where people get so excited naturally and understandably about their experience, their
43:45
encounter.
43:46
I'd use the cliche, stop and smell the roses, like stop and turn around, look where you just walked from, or let you just get away from the group and sit and stare at whatever
43:55
you may be looking at because
43:57
You're right.
43:57
So many people get so caught up again for the right reasons in where they are.
44:02
It could be a lifelong dream to see the gorillas and you want to have those memories and you think the only way to remember to keep it in your mind is photograph every single
44:09
second.
44:12
yeah, stopping and smelling the roses and maybe putting the camera down for five, 10, whatever, 20 minutes um is definitely the way to go.
44:20
So on that note, though, you mentioned the keyword in their budget.
44:23
I think most people realize now as in now in this
44:26
last 10 or so years.
44:28
Gorilla tracking permits have up exponentially in pricing.
44:32
When I did it forever ago, I can't remember what it was.
44:34
It was crazy cheap compared to today.
44:37
So if someone's looking to do it just for the one day or two days, what is the cost of a permit?
44:45
Are they different costs in Rwanda versus Uganda?
44:48
ah I know the answer to this, but I'm going to ask you to give us the answer.
44:52
Are they refundable?
44:54
Well, the price difference, Uganda, currently the permit price is 800.
44:59
uh Excuse me.
45:02
Rwanda is 1500 US dollars.
45:07
Yeah, both experiences.
45:11
Ultimately, you spend one hour with the gorillas.
45:13
So there's no difference once you're with the gorillas in terms of the amount of time allocated.
45:21
In Uganda, there is one family that um is currently available for what they call an Abituation Walk.
45:31
So this particular family, um only four guests are allowed to go to see them or visit them.
45:38
And you will spend a lot longer with the gorillas, up to two or three hours, depending how long it takes you to find them.
45:45
And you'll be trekking with
45:47
you know, obviously with guides and porters and things as well.
45:51
But, you know, you've got a lot longer to observe and ask questions and, you know, really enjoy the experience.
45:59
So that's also 1500, but there's only the one family.
46:02
So it's quite popular.
46:05
So booking ahead is obviously quite important for that sort of thing.
46:10
When it comes to the gorilla,
46:13
flexibility, let's call it that.
46:16
Once you've determined your date of trek and we've committed to the permits, we put down a non-refundable payment.
46:26
In Uganda, now we have to pay upfront.
46:29
uh
46:31
in full.
46:32
In Rwanda we can still pay a deposit and then top up a period beforehand but ultimately the permits are non-refundable and non-exchangeable and you can't move them.
46:46
So if you decide you want to trek on the 15th of August then that's the date you are trekking once the permits have been committed to.
46:55
And the other thing just in terms of the process of booking, snooze you loose.
47:00
Unfortunately, we can phone and say, you got permits on this date?
47:04
And the guys will say, yes, we've got maybe four left, which is getting a bit tight.
47:09
So you send somebody in to purchase them.
47:12
We have very good relationships with the wildlife authorities.
47:17
So they might hold them for us for a day or so, but they are not allowed to hold them provisionally.
47:25
He who has the money wins.
47:27
And so it's really important to plan your trip.
47:30
And if you do intend to include guerrilla trekking, whether it's Uganda or Rwanda, it's really important to make sure that you are committed to that date, you know, for your full
47:44
itinerary.
47:46
It's very, very difficult to move.
47:48
And we can under exceptional circumstances, but ultimately, uh once they're paid for, they're...
47:54
committed to.
47:55
was good.
47:56
So travel partners out there, when you are speaking to your clients about their trip into Eastern Africa and the grillers is on their list of things to do, as Debbie is mentioning
48:05
there, you need to make clear upfront that um one permit is limited, they're expensive, but it's worth it.
48:15
They are non-refundable.
48:17
And as such, when
48:19
you start building the itinerary, you should really build it around your guerrilla permits because that's the sort of, you know, immovable object within a greater itinerary for the
48:27
most part.
48:28
And then when your clients or when you speak to your clients and say, right, we built the itinerary around these dates, don't let them sit on it for a week or two because as Debbie
48:37
says, in that time, very good likelihood that the permits for the date in question will be gone.
48:43
So it's, this is where you can put a bit of pressure on your client out there.
48:46
They have to make decisions, at least on the guerrilla section.
48:50
pretty much quickly once they are happy with the dates that you've both mutually come to agree upon.
48:56
And again, as Debbie mentions, we've been through this not numerous times, but enough to know that if people want to change dates and cancel, it's uh basically, I Debbie said, you
49:05
snooze, you lose, too bad, so sad.
49:07
If you do change it, you're going to have to pay for another set of uh permits.
49:11
um Just going back to that new, again, maybe not new family group, the family group that only allows four,
49:19
guests to track with it and you have extended period of time.
49:23
Is this an ongoing program or is this something because you use the word to habituate this group.
49:31
Is that just short term to get them used to people and then that opportunity goes away or is this something that's an ongoing program that people can sign up for?
49:41
can't give you an absolute answer on that, but my understanding is it's, when I say ongoing, once this family is very used to people, I'm sure that they will become part of
49:55
the, let's call it regular trekking permits.
49:58
But there are new families popping up.
50:03
As I mentioned earlier, get breakaway silverbacks.
50:08
They've grown up being trekked.
50:12
They might find a female from a different family or maybe a wild family.
50:19
And if it's a wild family or whatever, you've got to get them re-used to being tracked again.
50:26
So I'd hesitate to say it's a once-off and will never be repeated.
50:34
But I do believe that it's part of the circumstances of getting the gorillas used to.
50:41
humans going in.
50:49
Well, for guests, obviously the trekkers and the guides and so forth are in there all the time.
50:54
You know, they're probably a little bit nervous to start with, but over time they will get used to people.
51:04
No, was just saying it takes years depending on the dynamics of the family for them to become used to humans.
51:12
That's a good, I wouldn't say it's a problem, it's not a problem at all, but that's a very good situation to be in that the fact that more family groups are popping up means that
51:21
they're feeling safe, secure, and obviously they're being protected.
51:23
uh So as you say, mightn't be like it can happen every time, um but definitely when you are talking to our travel partners out there now, when you have an inquiry about gorillas,
51:36
maybe ask our destination specialist about this option.
51:40
As Debbie says, it takes years to um have these new groups get comfortable.
51:45
So there's probably a good opportunity or good likelihood that this will be available.
51:49
But as Debbie also mentioned, because it's a different um opportunity, you spend longer with the gorillas, it'll be very, very popular and in turn m harder to get.
51:59
So anything gorillas book, it's far ahead or tell your clients to book as far ahead as they can to secure either this unique experience and or just the standard one.
52:10
which in itself is unique in the world.
52:11
And this is a really good way maybe to wrap things up that there is nowhere else in the world other than the countries that the girls have mentioned today, DRC, Uganda, or Wanda.
52:20
I think you've mentioned a fourth country as well.
52:23
You don't get this anywhere else in Africa and anywhere else in the world.
52:26
it's one of the reasons it's at the top of many bucket lists because it is so unique.
52:31
um Yes, the costs and permits have gone up historically over the years, but I think
52:37
Everyone's happy to pay for that because you can see that the money is not only going back into Protect the Grillers and more family groups are popping up.
52:45
As Debbie mentioned at beginning of our podcast, the numbers are increasing.
52:48
But it's also putting money back into the local communities.
52:51
We didn't delve into this in great depth, but I know off the back of the interaction and companies like Debbie's, that schools are being built through this, health, education,
53:02
everything.
53:03
um
53:05
You know, it's got lots of positive impacts.
53:08
and more and more travelers out there looking for more meaningful type of travel.
53:13
And if they know that their money is going back into local communities and projects, then I think they're more than happy to pay for it, let alone being face to face with these
53:21
amazing primates um up in the rainforests of Uganda and Rwanda.
53:26
um Debbie or Sammy, is there anything else you'd like to add or pass on to our listening audience about?
53:32
guerrilla trekking or experiences in general in Uganda and
53:38
The thing I'd like to personally add, I think Sam will expand on this, is the chimpanzee trekking uh experience.
53:47
there's several areas around Uganda and Rwanda, several forest areas where you can do chimpanzee trekking.
53:54
It's unbelievable.
53:56
It's such fun.
53:58
They are fast.
54:00
They're curious.
54:01
They're cheeky.
54:03
They're noisy.
54:04
They're very noisy.
54:05
And they're our closest relatives.
54:09
Chimpanzee checking.
54:13
Okay, sorry to interrupt there, Debbie.
54:14
Sammy, is it a similar logistical experience as the Mountain Gorillas or is it a different sort of interaction?
54:23
It's pretty similar.
54:24
The only thing that was different from the logistics of it is that we walked straight from the base, so you didn't have to get into a car to drive closer.
54:38
And when you do find the chimps, your group isn't alone with them.
54:44
You will be with one or two other groups, so there'll be more people.
54:49
The forest isn't as dense, so we trekked in Kibali and it's not as, you know, it's not like, it's not like Bwindi.
54:57
That's why it's called Bwindi Impenetrable Forest.
54:59
It's very impenetrable.
55:01
But so it's a lot more open and the trees are bigger and there's like a lot more space.
55:06
So the chimps are kind of, they're more spread out.
55:08
Their families are bigger.
55:10
I think we had a family of like 20 or 25 or something like, you know, there was lots, there was just chimpanzees everywhere and they're up in the trees and on the floor.
55:18
and they move around a lot.
55:20
the experience is incredibly different.
55:23
And I would recommend to everybody to do both.
55:25
The permits are $250 per trek.
55:29
And I thought that it was a, it's such a different trek.
55:33
Our trek was a lot longer.
55:34
So I think we were out there for like four or five hours.
55:37
But we, you know, we just had a, we're following the chimps and they're jumping in the trees and they slide down from the trees and they're calling and yeah.
55:45
So it's, it's, it's a very,
55:48
Yeah, they're just, too different to even explain.
55:51
Like the comparison, if that makes sense.
55:53
Like you just kind of have to do it.
55:56
And to be clear, you're viewing the chimps, they're in the wild.
55:59
It's not some uh reserve or shelter, so to speak.
56:04
Well, they have, yeah, they have situated families as well.
56:11
Yeah, I think my comparison would be gorillas are gentle giants, chimpanzees are crazy.
56:21
Yeah, they're really awesome.
56:23
And I think a key thing too, if you're to go all the way to Uganda or Rwanda, um like most things, if you're to travel that far, you want to see as much as you can.
56:33
um And assuming you can save up for it or budget for it, then try and do both.
56:39
But if someone is budget minded or they have no flexibility in their budget um and or maybe gorillas aren't their thing, know,
56:48
the comparison in price for the permits is substantially different.
56:51
So it's a much more affordable experience ah if budget becomes a question that your clients are pushing forward in their itinerary design for this part of the world.
57:01
uh Okay, so, and again, anything else you'd like to say before we say goodbye?
57:09
just thank you very much and we are obviously available if anybody's got any questions through your team and yeah we look forward to taking some of your guests up to East Africa
57:21
and Central Africa.
57:22
Excellent.
57:23
um And again, as Debbie mentioned, uh we have direct contact with uh them, with their staff, Semmy and Debbie and their expanded team.
57:35
But most of our destination specialists have been on the guerrilla trekking, so they know firsthand what's involved.
57:40
If they don't know the answer, they'll get it from our guys on ground in Uganda and Wanda.
57:45
m So on that note, I'd like to thank Debbie and Semmy ah for your time today.
57:52
It's really cool, Sammy, that you were there just recently as well.
57:55
A very um up-to-date uh update on your experience trekking for the Grillas.
58:02
It hasn't changed in its core concept, I don't think in many, many years, which is also in itself a wonderful thing that after all these years, the Grillas are still really cool
58:12
with everyone being around them.
58:13
um It's fantastic that you will see, that's our guests out there, see if they get there.
58:20
money going back into local communities, protection of the gorillas, the numbers are growing.
58:23
It's all very, very positive.
58:25
So any questions you have about gorilla trekking, please reach out to the Go Away Destination Specialists in our Africa team.
58:31
They'll be more than happy to help you, advise you not only on the gorillas, all the chimps, Uganda or Wanda, but all of Eastern Africa and Southern Central and Northern
58:41
Africa for that matter.
58:43
We have experts who can help you anywhere on the beautiful continent of Africa.
58:48
So Debbie and
58:49
Demi, thank you very much for your time today.
58:51
And as always, our travel partners out there, thank you for your time.
58:55
We know how busy you are and until next time.
59:00
Thank you.