Latest / In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch / Andrew Cuomo

Transcript

Andrew Cuomo · In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch

0:00
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: I'm Rabbi Ammi Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free
0:03
Synagogue in New York and you're listening to In these Times.
0:11
Andrew Cuomo has dedicated decades of his life to public service.
0:15
The son of New York's 52nd Governor, Mario Cuomo.
0:19
Andrew served as US Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, New York
0:22
Attorney General, and governor of the State of New York from 2011 to 2021.
0:28
When Governor Cuomo's staff contacted me to say that he was eager to
0:31
be a guest on in these times, of course, I immediately accepted.
0:35
We are in the midst of an important mayoral campaign in New York
0:38
City with local, national, and even international ramifications.
0:42
Moreover, as this podcast focuses on issues important to the American
0:47
Jewish community, the opportunity to spend close to an hour.
0:51
In intimate conversation with the former governor of New York, and according to
0:55
recent polling, the leading candidate for mayor of our city constitutes a rare
1:01
opportunity to probe deeply into the issues that are important to Americans and
1:05
American Jews, not in a partisan manner.
1:09
Synagogues do not engage in partisan politics.
1:12
We do not endorse candidates and we do not tell people how to vote.
1:16
But rather as a service to anyone interested in becoming more informed
1:20
about the issues that define the campaign, I hope other candidates will
1:24
contact me as well, A mayoral forum focusing on the issues that American
1:29
Jews are most concerned about would be good for both our community as well
1:33
as the candidates seeking our support.
1:36
In the course of our conversation, I asked Governor Cuomo, what is
1:40
at stake in the coming years.
1:42
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: I am worried about the state of American democracy.
1:45
I'm worried about this President.
1:48
You have a broken government in New York and the city feels
1:55
out of control and chaotic.
1:57
You have this far left, which is basically anti-business, I
2:02
think, not to be frightened.
2:04
Is unintelligent.
2:15
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: Governor Andrew Cuomo, welcome to In These Times.
2:18
Thank you for having me, rabbi.
2:19
It's a great honor to have you.
2:21
Before we get to some of the key issues in particular, uh,
2:25
Israel and the Middle East.
2:26
I just wanted to ask you, you, you spent most of your life in, uh, public service.
2:30
You spent eight years at HUD and four years as the secretary.
2:33
You, you were attorney general in New York.
2:35
You were the, of course, the governor of New York, and now you're
2:38
running for, uh, mayor of New York.
2:40
What is it about public life that is so compelling to you that constantly
2:44
draws you into public service?
2:47
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: Well, let's say it also rabbi that starting.
2:51
In my twenties, helping my father run for governor, which was probably the
2:55
most difficult public service I, I did.
2:59
I helped him run his first campaign and he became governor in 1982, and then I
3:04
worked with him as a special assistant for the first few years, and then I
3:09
help them informally, public service.
3:13
You pay a tremendous price, a higher price than I realized when I look
3:21
back because you just take a lot of time away from your family.
3:25
There are other opportunities you don't get a chance to pursue.
3:29
You deal with all sorts of garbage, especially nowadays.
3:33
It's a toxic environment, you know, it's like swimming in, uh,
3:37
sewage some days, but the but is.
3:43
You get to do a tremendous amount of good for people if you do it
3:49
right, the political part of it, the back and forth, the politics,
3:54
the pandering, the posturing.
3:56
Forget all that stuff, which many politicians focus on.
4:00
I focus on the instrumentality of government, of getting things done.
4:08
And when you get something done that changes people's lives,
4:13
that's brings so much satisfaction.
4:16
We were the first big state to pass marriage equality, for example,
4:20
which didn't change the whole conversation across the country.
4:23
You know, not to sound like an arrogant New Yorker, but when New York does
4:28
something, people notice free college tuition, raise the minimum wage.
4:34
Uh, you change your lives.
4:36
And that's the upside, that's the benefit.
4:39
And I was not planning on running for mayor.
4:43
Uh, I had moved into the private practice and I was enjoying life and I
4:48
got myself reacquainted with my kids.
4:51
But I was watching New York City, I'm watching the country and
4:56
I'm afraid for New York City.
4:58
Urban areas all across the country are in decline.
5:01
And, uh, I wanted to get in to see if I could help because I think help is needed.
5:07
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: I must tell you that, uh, I think of you every time
5:09
I go through LaGuardia Airport.
5:12
That is a great accomplishment.
5:14
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: LaGuardia is beautiful, isn't it?
5:16
Yeah.
5:16
And what I like about a rabbi is that it shows what you can do, right?
5:20
That was the worst airport in the country.
5:22
I. People mocked it.
5:24
Joe Biden mocked it.
5:25
He said If you were blindfolded and you landed in LaGuardia Airport to
5:29
go up the blindfold, you'd think you're in a third world country.
5:31
Right?
5:32
And they said it was impossible to do because you had to build a new
5:35
airport while you operated the old one.
5:37
And it's the smallest footprint of any airport in the United States.
5:40
But so you build a new airport, you know, we built a new Moynihan train station.
5:45
A new subway line, new Long Island railroad line, some beautiful bridges.
5:51
One we named after my father.
5:52
You know, so where do you get a chance to do something like that in life, you know?
5:57
And it gives me tremendous satisfaction.
6:00
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: Counting what you said about the time you spent
6:02
helping your father campaign.
6:04
It's been about four decades, I suppose, that you've been in
6:07
politics and, uh, public life.
6:10
Can you elaborate a little further on how you think it's changed?
6:13
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: It is much.
6:15
Nastier.
6:17
This use of the justice system to play politics is frightening.
6:24
Both sides will say, the other side does it, but is pervasive.
6:29
Now, early on.
6:32
There was politics in the campaign and you did your back and forth, but then
6:36
you went into government and there was almost a demarcation between politics
6:40
and government, and now government.
6:42
You got serious and you focused on policy and what was right and
6:46
what was intelligent, and what was logical and responsible.
6:50
That line is blurred.
6:52
This is just now all politics all the time.
6:56
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: Why do you, why is that?
6:57
Do you think the country has changed?
6:59
Do you think just the art or the culture of politics has been coarsened?
7:03
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: I think, well, the, the coring I think is partially social
7:08
media and it's partially the culture.
7:10
It's a harsher culture.
7:13
Right?
7:14
Maybe the venting through social media, the anonymity of social media
7:20
allowed us to air thoughts that we normally wouldn't have dared to utter
7:27
if we had to be identified with them.
7:31
Certainly affected the political discourse back and forth, the team
7:37
mentality, the uh, I'm a Democrat, you're a Republican, you are bad.
7:42
I'm good.
7:43
That has gotten more pervasive.
7:45
I'm not sure why, but the big difference for me is you didn't
7:51
try to put people in jail because they were your political opponent.
7:56
You know that the justice system had integrity.
8:01
And no one dared politicize the justice system.
8:04
I started as an assistant district attorney to Bob Mogen or Manhattan
8:08
District Attorney, legendary Boy, that's the justice system that's out of bounds.
8:14
But then I think it started with President Trump, uh, when he was in in office, and
8:19
I think he started to use the Department of Justice as a political weapon.
8:23
And that just takes you to a, to a frightening level.
8:27
Hmm.
8:28
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: Governor, I wanted to, on behalf of the Jewish community, I wanna
8:31
acknowledge that throughout your entire career, you've been a fierce defender
8:36
of the Jewish community and of Israel.
8:38
You a good Catholic boy.
8:41
Tell us why, what, what's your motivation?
8:44
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: Oh, well, first I, a New Yorker, largest Jewish
8:48
population outside of Israel.
8:50
Second.
8:51
I am personally just very close to the Jewish community, friends, family.
8:58
Literally two of my brothers-in-law are Jewish, so I grew up with the
9:03
Jewish community and the tradition and the faith, and my father was very
9:08
close to the Jewish community and the Jewish community in the past.
9:14
Much more now, but they were often a community that needed
9:18
assistance and needed understanding and needed protection.
9:24
Again, my father was very aggressive on behalf of Israel as governor,
9:28
and I continued that traveling to Israel every time they were attacked.
9:34
Right?
9:35
Rockets from Hamas would fly.
9:37
I would go to Israel.
9:39
Why would you do that?
9:40
They're under attack.
9:41
That's why I went, right.
9:42
That's when a friend shows up when you're under attack, always working
9:48
on the relationship because you are always aware of this delicate, fragile
9:55
balance we have in this country.
9:58
Pluribus unum, out of many one.
10:01
You're now an American and we respect our differences.
10:07
Yeah, but we're still aware of the differences.
10:11
And your Jewish and antisemitism was always right under the surface.
10:17
Never like this.
10:19
I would've never imagined if you told me five years ago this situation was
10:24
gonna develop with antisemitism, where New York City had more antisemitic
10:28
incidents than any city in the country.
10:30
I would say you were a paranoid delusional and you needed assistance.
10:35
I did.
10:35
Everything I did, we had really one antisemitic attack where a person
10:40
attacked a rabbi in Muncie, New York.
10:42
The person turned out to be mentally ill, but I still passed the strongest hate
10:46
crime bill in the United States funding for security around Jewish facilities.
10:52
So we were always aware of the sensitivity with the Jewish community, right?
10:59
Which was more so than with the Italian community and other communities.
11:04
That was always in the back of my head, and it was important to remember that.
11:09
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: Do you think there's something unique.
11:11
That goes beyond just, you know, hate of minorities or straight up
11:17
hatred that we experience in society.
11:20
Do you think there's something unique about antisemitism?
11:23
About hatred of Jews?
11:26
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: I think there is rabbi and it pains me to say that, and
11:31
I don't understand why, but you'd be in denial if you didn't say when you look
11:39
through history, I. You see, whenever there's a tension, there's an issue.
11:45
It seems like fingers get pointed to the Jews first, but I tell you, I am
11:51
still shocked because I thought we were more sophisticated, we were more
11:57
educated, we were more assimilated.
12:01
It's impossible that there'd be this level of antisemitism now.
12:06
October 7th introduces a whole new dynamic.
12:09
I get that.
12:10
I really do.
12:11
I understand how you can have very strong feelings on the matter.
12:15
You should have strong feelings on the matter.
12:18
I understand how some people don't really understand history anymore, you know?
12:22
And you have a lot of young people who only know TikTok and they've been
12:26
watching TikTok and they see the same image of children in Gaza combing
12:31
through rock piles for something to eat.
12:34
I understand all of that, but you can be pro-Palestinian and that's fine.
12:41
That's your right, but not anti-Semitic.
12:44
That's a different.
12:46
Stage and that's where we are.
12:48
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: Well, so help us understand that, because you said you
12:51
were shocked by the explosion of, uh, antisemitism in the last few years.
12:56
I can tell you on behalf of the Jewish community that we were stunned
13:01
and in some way shaken to our core because we believed that we had come
13:07
so far in American society and that.
13:09
American society with all of its exceptionalism was exceptional in this
13:13
respect too, that to a certain degree, it wasn't that we were not aware that
13:19
there was antisemitism in the country.
13:21
Of course, we remember the.
13:23
Pittsburgh massacre and and Poway.
13:26
But fundamentally, we thought that these kind of explosions of antisemitism
13:31
that we're seeing now were un-American.
13:33
They were behind us, and they could arise in Europe and other
13:36
places in the world, but not here.
13:39
How do you account for this kind of eruption of antisemitism immediately
13:46
after October 7th, which was the worst?
13:51
Massacre of Jews since the Holocaust.
13:53
So you had 1200 Jews who were massacred.
13:56
You had 250 Israelis who were taken hostage and protests erupted
14:03
here in the west against Israel and eventually against the Jews.
14:08
How do
14:08
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: you
14:09
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: account for that?
14:10
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: I can't.
14:11
I can't, except to the extent that first of all, this American
14:17
experiment in democracy where we say we can accept people from all over
14:21
the world and forge one community, this is still a work in progress
14:26
and there is still a tension, right?
14:29
C happens, we have all sorts of, uh, incidents against Chinese
14:33
people because it was the China virus as the president said.
14:37
So it's always a fragile balance, right?
14:40
We're all assimilated.
14:42
We're all one.
14:43
Yeah.
14:43
Until we're not.
14:44
But it is different with the Jewish community, and I agree with you.
14:48
October 7th, the attack is on Israel, in a sense are killed.
14:55
And by the way, the.
14:56
We're all experienced with terrorism and terrorist attacks and the
15:02
appropriate response to terrorism.
15:05
In the face of a terrorist attack.
15:07
You defend yourself against this savage brutality.
15:11
We've seen that in this country and around the world.
15:15
It happens to Israel, and that's the situation for, it felt like 48 hours,
15:23
and then all of a sudden it flips too.
15:26
Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself.
15:29
I don't have an explanation.
15:31
I was as shocked, and I continue to be shocked at how it has
15:36
become more and more egregious.
15:39
You wear the masks of Hamas during protests.
15:46
What are you trying to say?
15:48
You're not saying, I want peace.
15:52
You're not saying, uh, Israel should stop bombing.
15:56
You are wearing the mask of Hamas.
15:59
You are saying, I'm dressed like the terrorist of October 7th, who
16:04
killed and raped and brutalized.
16:07
That's what you're saying.
16:09
You are saying, I am wearing the outfit of pure hatred.
16:15
That is what I am wearing.
16:16
I am pure hatred.
16:19
That massacred people, and I'm emulating that.
16:25
I mean, how do you explain that?
16:27
How do you defend that?
16:30
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: Do you remember where you were when you first heard the news on
16:32
October 7th, and what was your reaction?
16:35
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: I think mentally I tried to minimize it.
16:39
At first, I remember talking to my daughter on the phone about it and
16:43
because, you know, the news came out in dribs and drabs, you know, and
16:47
to me it reminded me of like nine 11 and how the news came out, you know,
16:51
piecemeal and, and you really didn't see the full picture for a while.
16:57
But then obviously the more facts you get, the uglier it was.
17:01
As I mentioned, I went to.
17:04
A number of times during different attacks.
17:06
I went when they first discovered the tunnels from Gaza and Shimon Perez took
17:14
us on a tour of the tunnels because he wanted to get some international press on.
17:20
How adamant the Palestinians were to reach a place where
17:25
they could kill Jewish people.
17:26
That they built this elaborate tunnel and must have spent millions of dollars
17:30
building this tunnel about a mile long.
17:34
And the resilience of the people of Israel where you could have an attack in
17:39
the morning and like by the afternoon, you know, it was gone and they moved on.
17:44
Was this that.
17:46
Was this just another, but then obviously as the facts came in,
17:50
it was more and more horrific.
17:54
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: Have you given thought to the nexus between
17:56
anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism?
17:59
Do you think that anti-Zionism Israel is apartheid oppression
18:03
from the river to the sea?
18:04
Boycott, divestment, sanction?
18:06
Do you think that is by definition antisemitism or is there some gray line
18:12
between anti-Zionism and antisemitism?
18:15
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: I think Rabbi, in theory, you could draw a line.
18:21
In theory, you could draw a line.
18:23
In theory, you could say, I oppose the government's policies, but I
18:29
understand that is not a reflection on the people of the country.
18:36
Right.
18:37
You can say, and people do say, I. Oppose, uh, Trump on immigration.
18:44
I oppose Trump on tariffs, but I'm not anti-American.
18:48
Uh, I'm not anti-American people, so theoretically you could do it, but I
18:54
don't think that's what's happening here.
18:56
I don't think there is a line.
18:57
My opponents in my mayor's race, they're all members of the Democratic
19:01
Socialists of America, which are the left wing of the Democratic Party or the
19:05
supporters of the DSA, which is BDS, and.
19:11
You agree not to visit Israel?
19:14
Well, now you're condemning the people of Israel, right?
19:19
So the line, if you could have drawn a line, they haven't drawn a line.
19:27
And anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism.
19:31
That's where I believe we are.
19:40
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: You mentioned, uh, the Democratic party.
19:42
Uh, I know you know this.
19:44
Most American Jews, since the days of FDR at least have strongly supported
19:49
the Democratic Party in every way.
19:52
I must tell you, uh, even those who are still supportive of the
19:57
Democratic Party, almost all of us were shocked at the progressive wing,
20:03
which spilled into universities, uh, and the intellectual scene as well
20:08
in its animosity towards Israel.
20:11
What's going on in the Democratic Party and can you assure, uh, American
20:15
Jews that the Democratic Party that they supported since World War
20:19
II is the same Democratic party?
20:22
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: No, I can't.
20:24
I, I come from the same school.
20:27
To me, being a Democrat was synonymous with supporting Israel.
20:32
There wasn't even a conversation.
20:34
You now have a significant movement in the Democratic Party.
20:39
It is still the minority, but it is a very powerful minority
20:46
that they say on paper, rabbi.
20:51
I'm a democratic socialist, which by the way, I don't know how you
20:54
can be a Democratic socialist 'cause that's an oxymoron, right?
20:56
Just, you can't be a Democrat and a socialist.
21:00
I think it's just they're playing, uh, word games.
21:03
You're a socialist.
21:05
Alright, God bless you, you're a socialist and call yourself a socialist.
21:08
And in their charter it says, I agree that I support BDS.
21:14
I agree not to travel to Israel.
21:17
And that is a significant portion of the Democratic Party and the
21:22
moderates are afraid of that faction.
21:26
It is the activist faction.
21:27
It is the faction that comes out in primaries and in a place like New York,
21:33
Los Angeles, me, urban Centers, they are very much the governing influence.
21:40
Defund the police was their position.
21:44
Homeless.
21:45
Mentally Ill have a civil right to be on the street.
21:49
Right?
21:49
Why is Los Angeles, San Francisco?
21:52
Or you see the blue tarps and people living everywhere is there civil right?
21:57
And BDS don't visit Israel pro-Palestinian.
22:03
I think they used it as a recruiting tool.
22:06
I think they attracted a lot of young people to their movement
22:11
with their anti-Israel position.
22:14
I think you have a lot of young people who have no idea of history, right?
22:18
There's no 19 47, 19 67 Yam kipp.
22:22
None of that is just TikTok for the past year and a half, and the same image over
22:28
and over, and Israel is the superpower.
22:33
Poor.
22:34
Gaza is the underdog and they're with the underdog.
22:38
That's all they know.
22:40
I think this far left has used the pro-Palestinian issue to
22:45
recruit those young people.
22:47
I think it's more organized than we think.
22:49
I think there's more funders in there than we think.
22:53
I think there's foreign money in there, and I understand why a lot of Jewish
22:59
people don't have the trust in the Democratic Party that they did, and
23:04
they watched the squad in Washington.
23:08
And what they said about Israel, which was vile in many ways, and
23:14
the Democrats stood by silent and they felt isolated and abandoned.
23:21
And I get it.
23:22
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: Do you think there's a risk of losing the traditional
23:26
bipartisan support for Israel?
23:29
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: I don't think we are there yet.
23:30
I think the majority of Democrats support Israel.
23:35
And I think the bipartisan support will remain.
23:38
But have we lost a generation of young people who I believe will carry an
23:48
antipathy towards Israel for many years?
23:52
Hopefully they learn something and they get past it.
23:55
But yes, I think there's a whole generation out there.
23:59
You try to talk to some of these kids on these college campuses.
24:03
And they don't want to hear it.
24:04
They just don't want to hear history and Camp David Accords and all the attempts at
24:09
peace and the fact that really Israel has never wanted anything but peace, right?
24:14
They don't wanna hear it.
24:16
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: What should we be doing?
24:17
I mean, I, I know that you've established an initiative to try and fight back.
24:20
It, it, it's not an option just simply to, uh, sit back and let these developments
24:27
unfold or simply talk to ourselves.
24:31
What do you think we can do?
24:32
And specifically, how would you be able to make a contribution
24:36
within the Democratic party
24:39
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: first?
24:40
I think we should be more aggressive.
24:43
I don't think we're aggressive enough.
24:46
I think after October 7th, there was a whole mobilization.
24:50
There was a lot of generosity, a lot of donations.
24:53
Most of that went to help people in Israel, but there wasn't enough focus on.
25:00
The response in this country, there wasn't enough outrage and
25:04
opposition to what was going on.
25:07
And silence is acceptance in this political system.
25:12
And if you are not opposing vehemently, then you are losing.
25:19
And I think we need a more aggressive, louder impact in the election that I'm in.
25:26
Make these candidates who are running in a Democratic primary,
25:31
how do you justify supporting BDS?
25:35
Right?
25:36
This is a city.
25:37
You have 600,000 registered Jewish Democrats.
25:43
The whole turnout in a primary is 800,000.
25:46
They could decide the election.
25:49
Use your voice, use your vote.
25:51
Get aggressive.
25:52
Passivity does not work.
25:55
And I say that to synagogues and temples whenever I get a chance.
26:01
Number two, I think I can be helpful as the Shabbos goy.
26:10
You know, sometimes a non-Jew can be helpful.
26:14
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: Listen, I know that you, just by use of that term, I
26:17
know that you're a friend of the Jews.
26:21
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: I am, you know, I'm, I'm way out there.
26:23
I'm very aggressive.
26:25
I don't think there've been enough arrests of these protesters
26:28
who have violated the law.
26:30
I think we've been complacent and compliant, and so I would
26:35
be much more aggressive.
26:37
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: Do you include in that, uh, you know, politics runs on
26:41
financial contributions as well, do you.
26:43
Do you think, you know, the Jewish communities should condition
26:47
financial support on support for various policies of candidates?
26:52
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: Yes.
26:53
Yes.
26:54
If I'm a Jewish contributor, I say Israel's important to me, assuming
26:59
I support Israel, and if you want my financial contribution, I wanna know that
27:05
we're in the same position on the issues.
27:08
Which is how the American system works, right?
27:10
My issue is the environment I support environmentally,
27:13
uh, conscientious candidates.
27:15
That's how it works.
27:16
And I think unfortunately, finance is the grease of the gears here, right?
27:22
In this political machine, in this country all too often.
27:25
So, yes, uh, I think the Jewish community should be more aggressive.
27:30
I think it's a time to be more aggressive, politically more outspoken.
27:35
There's a congressman from New York who's a great champion for the Jewish community,
27:40
Congressman Richie Torres, and at great risk to himself because when you are
27:47
pro-Israel, you pay a very high price.
27:50
I. Because you have that whole left against you, right?
27:54
All those democratic socialists are against you, but he's
27:59
a courageous politician.
28:01
He believes it.
28:02
He took that position and uh, Jewish community has rallied
28:06
around Congressman Torres, and I think that's the right thing.
28:10
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: Did it shock you?
28:11
What transpired Very, very soon after October 7th on university campuses?
28:16
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: Yes.
28:17
I. The, the vehement.
28:21
The vehement.
28:22
I don't know.
28:22
I, I keep coming back to it, rabbi, but it's just, it's the, the masks.
28:29
The masks.
28:30
You know, you would get, have a great intellectual debate
28:33
about a supporter's right.
28:35
To be pro-Palestinian and feelings about nothing.
28:39
Yahoo, and it could be a great, when you put on that mask of Hamas.
28:46
There was no intellectual debate that was the mask of
28:51
hate, and that just floored me.
28:57
It, it
28:58
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: of course, is very disturbing for the Jewish community and
29:02
of course, the New York Jewish community here in our backyards to witness the
29:06
unfolding of events in Columbia or NYU or cuny, and I've been trying to understand.
29:13
Why the universities responded the way they did for that first year or so,
29:18
because in the recent months, it seems like many of them are doing a better
29:24
job than they did in the first year.
29:26
And I keep on coming back to, it's one of the following possibilities
29:31
or all of them together in some way.
29:34
Either they are just simply incompetent or they have a subtle attraction
29:45
and agreement with this identity politics philosophy that inclines
29:52
more times than not to an anti-Israel, anti-Zionist type worldview.
29:58
Or they calculated that it wasn't in their interests to act any differently,
30:03
even though their own policies prevented.
30:07
What unfolded that is, it wasn't that they needed to create new policies,
30:11
they didn't enforce the policies that they already had on campus and that
30:16
they would've enforced against any other minority group who was attacked
30:20
and, you know, violated in this way.
30:23
What do you think, why were administrators, presidents of
30:27
universities so compromised?
30:31
And couldn't see the issue clearly enough for that whole entire first year.
30:37
And it was only after this kind of counter pressure began to build on
30:42
them from alumni, but also from certain government agencies that eventually
30:49
brought them to the place where they should have been at the very beginning.
30:53
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: No, that's a very good question, rabbi.
30:55
I think it's, I would take E, all of the above.
30:58
It's incompetence meets fear.
31:04
I don't think a lot of these administrators had dealt with
31:07
a situation like this, right, probably for their entire 10 year.
31:13
I mean, you have to go back a ways to find these kinds of
31:17
demonstrations on college campuses.
31:19
So I think they were just afraid.
31:22
It was a significant feeling among the student body.
31:25
This was not going to be about five or 10 or 20 kids.
31:29
This was a significant percentage of the student body, and I
31:35
think the hyper intellectual.
31:39
Discussion was pro-Palestinian or leaning pro-Palestinian.
31:45
Right.
31:46
Israel?
31:47
Too much.
31:48
Too far.
31:49
It was a disproportionate response.
31:52
I think that was the leading argument and until there was
31:56
counter pressure, they didn't act.
31:59
And that's why I go back to, there has to be counter pressure
32:02
on the college presidents.
32:04
There has to be counter pressure on the Democratic electeds.
32:09
He goes, otherwise, why should I stand up and take a position on this issue?
32:14
Mm-hmm.
32:15
And a Democratic primary, maybe 40% will say they're Democratic socialists.
32:24
Prob BDS 40% is a big number.
32:27
Why should I incur that if I don't have to?
32:32
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: Do you think there's, uh, foreign money
32:34
flowing into universities and that's making a difference in
32:37
terms of their approach as well?
32:38
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: I do.
32:39
I don't have evidence, but I believe that, and I believe that's been happening
32:42
for many years and I think we didn't catch it and we didn't notice it.
32:46
And the Middle East studies centers were biased.
32:51
You know, when you look back now, right.
32:53
BDS.
32:55
That was probably 15 years ago that started.
32:58
Israel is the Apartheid government Amnesty International Human
33:03
Rights violations, right?
33:06
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: If you were elected mayor, we have these great
33:09
institutions of higher learning in our city, many of which have had
33:14
these kind of problems and still do.
33:17
Is there something you would do specifically to make sure
33:21
that Jewish students are as protected as is their right?
33:26
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: I would be much more aggressive in enforcing the
33:29
law and then prosecuting afterwards.
33:32
If the district attorneys are afraid of the politics, I would use
33:38
the human rights law violations.
33:41
Which aren't criminal, but they're still legal violations.
33:45
I would say to the university administrators, let me take the heat.
33:51
It's on private property, so you need the administrator to allow the NYPD to take
33:58
action unless it's exigent circumstances.
34:01
But I would say to them, I'll take the heat.
34:03
I get it.
34:05
You don't want to deal with it or you don't want the conflict, uh, let me do it.
34:10
I would take much more aggressive action.
34:11
Mm-hmm.
34:13
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: Before we run out of time, and I know you've been
34:15
very generous with your time, I'd, I'd like to ask you just a little
34:18
bit about the state of the country.
34:19
Uh, how are we doing in this country?
34:21
Are you, are you worried about the state of American democracy?
34:25
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: I am worried about the state of American democracy.
34:28
I'm worried about this.
34:30
President, I know him very well.
34:33
He's from New York, he's from Queens.
34:36
I've known him all my life.
34:37
He is, to me, wreaking havoc on democracy and he is effective at it.
34:47
And the Democrats haven't really figured out how to deal with him.
34:51
You know, he's moved so quickly.
34:56
What did Wayne Gretzky say?
34:58
Skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it's been.
35:02
It seems like the Democrats are skating to the point he was at yesterday, but
35:07
today he's at a totally different place.
35:10
You know, they haven't figured out how to deal with that.
35:13
And it's frightening how you see major institutions cower, uh, major law
35:20
firms, major schools, major companies.
35:25
I think not to be frightened is unintelligent, putting people
35:30
in jail, wild times out there.
35:33
Rabbi,
35:34
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: what do you think of that?
35:35
Columbia student who was, uh, arrested, it was a green card holder.
35:40
In, in general, the practice of arresting, uh, people without due process.
35:47
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: Due process is everything.
35:49
It is everything.
35:50
I don't care what your position is.
35:52
I don't care what your politics are.
35:54
Right.
35:55
That is the one rule we all have to agree to.
35:59
Right.
36:01
Unless, uh, we're going to really destroy each other and
36:05
see the whole system melt down.
36:08
That's what I was referring to earlier when I was talking about the
36:11
politicalization of the justice system.
36:14
Once that happens, it's over and the justice system has that one.
36:18
Rule, which is due process.
36:21
That's it.
36:21
That's all we have.
36:22
That's the foundation.
36:24
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: So you think there's a real danger in enforcing
36:29
the forced expulsion of migrants here?
36:32
Trump himself said something like, what are we gonna give, uh,
36:36
court hearings to all these many millions of illegal, uh, migrants?
36:40
You, you think there's a real danger to the fabric of American democracy in this?
36:45
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: Look, we know they have deported people wrongfully, right?
36:50
The government makes mistakes, especially when it has a political
36:55
agenda that it is pursuing, right?
36:59
It's not like we are pursuing, uh, anarchists, rabbi who are
37:03
planting bombs in buildings here.
37:07
Trump's point is, well, they're here illegally, all right?
37:11
But.
37:12
The response should be proportionate and basic due process doesn't mean
37:19
everybody has the right to go to trial and then appellate court,
37:24
but basic due process of course.
37:27
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: What do you think, uh, are the main issues, uh, the main
37:31
challenges for New York City as you are running now for, uh, mayor of New York,
37:37
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: you have.
37:38
A broken government in New York, it just doesn't function and the city feels out
37:46
of control and chaotic public safety, mentally ill, homeless random assaults.
37:54
The city is dirty.
37:56
E-bikes zipping all over the place.
37:59
It just feels like the place is out of control.
38:02
And it's frightening for people.
38:04
Number of people leaving the city is frightening for me.
38:08
You have that set of operational problems, if you will.
38:12
You have this far left, which is basically anti-business because they're socialists,
38:20
so they're, they do their best.
38:22
They basically chase businesses out of New York.
38:26
And, uh, you need business, you need jobs, you need growth, you need income.
38:31
You have that set of issues overlaid with the political issue of the far left
38:36
and these really destructive policies.
38:40
And then you have a federal government that is antagonistic and you are
38:48
going to feel it first in budget cuts.
38:52
Which will go primarily to blue states and blue cities, uh, that will happen.
38:58
They'll cut Medicaid, they'll cut housing assistance.
39:02
They'll cut title one funds, uh, because they'll need to fund a tax cut.
39:07
He has to fund the 2017 tax cut and a new tax cut.
39:13
And, uh, they're gonna find the money by attacking the blue cities and
39:18
blue states and primarily funding that would go to poorer people.
39:22
So that's the convergence of those two dynamics are problematic
39:29
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: and you feel you're, you have a plan to address these, uh, main
39:34
challenges and you feel you're the best in the field that will be able to do that.
39:39
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: I have a plan and I think experience teaches.
39:44
Rabbi.
39:46
I've been a federal cabinet secretary.
39:48
I was the attorney general.
39:50
I've been through storms and floods and riots, and COVID.
39:58
I've gone 14 rounds with Donald Trump, so I don't know that anyone can come
40:04
in here in wave of a wand, but I think I'm battle tested and proven.
40:11
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: Do you have a final message to, we have a lot of, um.
40:14
non-Jewish, uh, listeners across the country who listen to you by
40:17
the way, they, they remember with great fondness, your daily briefings,
40:22
uh, during the Covid Pandemic.
40:24
Do you have a final message to American citizens on the eve of the New York?
40:28
Primary
40:30
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: antisemitism is not about just about Jewish people.
40:36
It is about discrimination.
40:38
It is about differentiation.
40:41
It is anti-American.
40:43
Once you start to say, well, you are Jewish and I'm gonna judge you because
40:48
of that, well then are you gonna judge me because I'm Italian or we judge a
40:53
black person, judge, a Native American judge, a Chinese person that pulls
40:58
at the very fabric that is America.
41:00
So, uh, it's not.
41:03
Just antisemitism.
41:05
This is anti-American.
41:07
Second on the more granular, parochial, urban areas are in
41:13
desperate condition in this country.
41:16
Post covid.
41:17
You don't have to be in a city anymore.
41:20
Remote work zooms people moved out during covid, and you know what it was, okay.
41:27
Then you have the deterioration of urban areas at the same time.
41:33
Uh, they're not fun to be in.
41:36
They're threatening.
41:38
You're not excited to go into San Francisco or LA or Chicago or New York.
41:45
That's where we are now, and it only gets worse.
41:49
You have people leaving these urban areas.
41:52
Then you're gonna see it compounded when the federal
41:55
government basically abandons them.
41:57
And that is something, uh, that will, will hurt the country overall.
42:03
You know, the urban centers are essential to this national economy.
42:09
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: Governor Andrew Cuomo, on behalf of the Jewish community,
42:12
thank you for and your family for decades of support of the Jewish
42:16
community and the state of Israel.
42:19
And, uh, good luck on the upcoming campaign.
42:22
GOV ANDREW CUOMO: Thank you, rabbi.
42:23
Thank you for having me.
42:30
RABBI AMMI HIRSCH: I'm so pleased that Governor Cuomo reached out
42:32
to me and offered to engage our synagogue and international podcast
42:36
community as we are in the midst of a mayoral campaign in New York City.
42:41
I welcome hearing from other candidates as well.
42:44
These are opportunities to dwell on issues that are especially
42:47
important to the Jewish community.
42:49
To be clear.
42:51
Churches, synagogues, mosques and other religious institutions are not political
42:55
bodies and rabbis are not politicians.
42:58
We do not endorse political candidates.
43:01
We do, however, endorse policies.
43:04
Our job is to remind politicians of our moral imperatives.
43:09
We see the world from our religious obligations out, not
43:12
from political calculations in.
43:15
We are driven not by what is popular, but by what is right.
43:20
We are driven, not by the words of posters, but by the words of God.
43:25
Love the foreigner, defend the orphan and the widow.
43:29
Pursue peace and justice, love mercy, and walk humbly.
43:34
We have a concept in Judaism called Ha Tov, the recognition of the good
43:40
gratitude for some blessing or gift or special support we have received.
43:46
It is a profound Jewish value because we do not think enough about gratitude.
43:51
When things are good in our lives, we often take the good times for granted.
43:56
When we are in good health, we rarely think of illness.
44:00
When we are satisfied in our work and careers, we tend not to dwell
44:04
on our fortune and the misfortune of others, and even more, we assume that
44:10
the good times like the Mississippi River will just keep rolling along.
44:16
It's not true.
44:18
Everything changes.
44:20
Both our personal and communal lives are precariously balanced.
44:25
Most people are one major setback.
44:27
One bad decision, one skipped heartbeat away from a wholly different life and
44:33
even the best, most tolerant and most advanced societies have only a top thin
44:38
veneer of stability, chaos, and disorder.
44:42
All of the blemishes of the human creature.
44:45
Play bubbling and churning just under the surface.
44:49
For this reason, Jewish sages advised, pray for the welfare of the government.
44:55
For without its authority, people would swallow their neighbors alive.
45:00
Governor Cuomo and his father, Mario Cuomo before him have been uniquely
45:05
supportive of the Jewish community and the Jewish state for decades.
45:10
We should not take this support for granted.
45:13
Contrary to what many of us assumed prior to October 7th, 2023, the
45:18
virus of Jew hatred still exists.
45:20
Yes, even in America, viruses cannot be eliminated.
45:25
They lay dormant, preparing to attack the body and the body
45:29
politic when they are weak.
45:32
The explosion of antisemitism in this country is a clear sign that our civic
45:36
culture has weakened and America itself.
45:40
Is at risk of severe social and political disease.
45:45
It takes courage nowadays to defend Israel and the Jewish people.
45:49
We are a small minority, less than 2% of Americans and
45:53
0.01% of the human population.
45:58
We need friends and allies.
46:00
The prisoner cannot free himself from prison, say the rabbis.
46:04
The struggle against antisemitism is not for Jews alone.
46:08
The fight against racism is not for minorities alone, and the
46:11
fight against economic inequality is not for the dispossessed alone.
46:16
And therefore, irrespective of our political views or affiliations.
46:21
It is important to me, and it is right and proper for the Jewish community
46:26
to recognize and honor those who have stood by us in this respect.
46:31
I wanna reiterate what I said to the governor.
46:35
The Cuomo family will be recorded in the annals of Jewish civilization as our loyal
46:40
friends, and for this, we are grateful and we do not take it for granted.
46:50
Until next time, this is "In These Times."