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The Dark Side Of Deliverance Ministry · Life TV now

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Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this program are those
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Speaker 1: of the participants and do not necessarily reflect those of
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Speaker 1: the network or its affiliates. This content is for informational
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Speaker 1: purposes only and should not be considered medical advice nor
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Speaker 1: treated as a replacement for diagnosis or treatment. Please consult
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Speaker 1: your healthcare provider of choice regarding any personal changes to
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Speaker 1: your health or treatment plan. Depression. Anxiety. Intrusive thoughts. Even
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Speaker 1: unexplained behaviors you may be afraid to tell anyone else about.
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Speaker 1: When is it a mental health issue? And when could
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Speaker 1: it be something more malevolent? And if the symptoms can
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Speaker 1: look surprisingly similar, how do you know what you're actually
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Speaker 1: dealing with? And what do you do once you find out?
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Speaker 1: We're digging into all of that and more right now.
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Speaker 1: Hello everybody and welcome back to Life TV Now, where
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Speaker 1: we unpack all matters of truth, faith, and freedom. I'm
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Speaker 1: your host, Joe Artis Horn. Today we continue with our
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Speaker 1: special guest talking about the unseen realm. We're talking about
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Speaker 1: spiritual warfare. We're talking about the spirit realm that affects
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Speaker 1: people on all levels of life. And often these things
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Speaker 1: are treated with pharmaceutical interventions, perhaps workshops, 10-step programs. but
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Speaker 1: missed the actual underlying root cause of the depression, the anxiety,
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Speaker 1: the mental unwellness. Before we dive in, let me introduce
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Speaker 1: who's here. She's an integrative nutrition health coach with a
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Speaker 1: master of science in health education. Please welcome our executive director,
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Speaker 1: Jamie Woodall. Thank you.
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Speaker 2: Thank you.
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Speaker 1: And she's a licensed clinical mental health counselor with over
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Speaker 1: 20 years of experience combining clinical expertise with a deeply
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Speaker 1: biblical worldview. She's the founder of Mental Warrior Consulting and
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Speaker 1: author of the brand new book, Humanity Under Siege. Please
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Speaker 1: welcome Dr. Natalie Atwell. If you missed the last couple
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Speaker 1: of weeks of Life TV Now, go to wherever it
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Speaker 1: is that you watch the program, whether that's Rumble, Roku,
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Speaker 1: wherever it is that you watch the program, go back.
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Speaker 1: The last couple of weeks, we have been talking with Dr.
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Speaker 1: Natalie Atwell. And I got to tell you, these programs,
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Speaker 1: I said it last week, if I could have seen
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Speaker 1: these shows 20 years ago when I was dealing with
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Speaker 1: my anxiety and my self-loathing and my shame cycles and
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Speaker 1: my addiction, this book, and I'm going to bring this
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Speaker 1: up on the screen right now, this book probably would
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Speaker 1: have changed the course of my life. And I'm not
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Speaker 1: overstating that for the sake of TV. Humanity under siege,
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Speaker 1: the unseen realm and the spiritual war against the human mind.
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Speaker 1: And for context, we're talking about son of Tom and
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Speaker 1: Juanita Horn, constantly around biblical teachings, the book of Revelation, Ezekiel, Enoch.
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Speaker 1: I mean, all of the heavy stuff that the church
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Speaker 1: is didn't talk about, but I will say also what
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Speaker 1: I would say is probably a fairly normal acceptance of
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Speaker 1: a lot of Western or traditional. I hate the word traditional,
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Speaker 1: but if I say it, then the viewer at home
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Speaker 1: understands what I mean. Perspective on things like medications, pharmakia.
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Speaker 1: We did the go to the doctor, have the surgery,
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Speaker 1: do the test. We did all of the things. And
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Speaker 1: I will tell you that a lot of that is
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Speaker 1: one of the things that damaged my health so much
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Speaker 1: that then it gave rise to the discovery later of
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Speaker 1: liver dysfunction and MTHFR and the things that meant that
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Speaker 1: I was chemically off, and of course, all that was
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Speaker 1: fueling the depression and the heaviness of life. But man,
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Speaker 1: go back, because we also talked about some of the
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Speaker 1: things that would have helped me break through, but we
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Speaker 1: didn't have Dr. Natalie Atwell. We didn't have this book,
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Speaker 1: Humanity Under Seed. There's an area of spiritual warfare, and
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Speaker 1: I think my family is pretty good evidence. There's an
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Speaker 1: area of spiritual warfare that unless you specialize in it
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Speaker 1: and you understand this portion of passage means this in truth.
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Speaker 1: Mental health is more than just pharmaceuticals or labels or protocols.
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Speaker 1: So let's just get right into it. Let's start with
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Speaker 1: a question that people are really going to want answered.
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Speaker 1: When someone is struggling mentally or emotionally, how do you
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Speaker 1: know whether you're looking at a disorder, a spiritual battle,
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Speaker 1: Or possibly both?
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Speaker 3: You know, we don't need to start with the question,
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Speaker 3: is this a demon? You know, is everything a demon?
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Speaker 3: But we also don't need to start with the question,
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Speaker 3: is this a psychological problem in and of itself? We
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Speaker 3: really need to start with the question of what is
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Speaker 3: happening with this person and then trying to figure out,
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Speaker 3: let's get to the root cause of what's going on.
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Speaker 4: And that involves holistic assessment.
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Speaker 3: I mean, arguably, some of the things that you are
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Speaker 3: going through in your life is because you go to
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Speaker 3: a medical provider and they don't assess you holistically. And
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Speaker 3: that is really important. And that's it's no different in
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Speaker 3: mental health. So when someone comes in our practice, they're
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Speaker 3: struggling with something. We want to assess the whole person,
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Speaker 3: what's happening physically with them, what's happening.
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Speaker 4: Relationally, psychologically.
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Speaker 3: And spiritually, which is really important and one of the
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Speaker 3: factors that people often miss. And then the key is
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Speaker 3: biblical discernment to help you figure out.
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Speaker 4: But I have.
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Speaker 3: Outlined some ways that we do that, some ways that
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Speaker 3: God's shown me to help us discern is this spiritual, mental,
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Speaker 3: or some other way that someone's struggling with a problem
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Speaker 3: in the book.
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Speaker 1: Are there certain red flags, you as a doctor, somebody
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Speaker 1: that works with lots and lots of individuals through their
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Speaker 1: mental unwellness or their anxieties or their depressions. And I'm
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Speaker 1: sure you talk to people that confess to you all
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Speaker 1: kinds of things that they're not telling their family members.
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Speaker 1: Maybe these are things they're ashamed of. Maybe they're things
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Speaker 1: they wouldn't want their parents to know. Hey, I'm thinking
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Speaker 1: about checking out of this place. How do I make
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Speaker 1: it look like an accident? Like you hear all of
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Speaker 1: the darkest, because people are desperate. By the time they
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Speaker 1: get to you, they're desperate. They're clinging, I think, some
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Speaker 1: of them on to life itself. Are there red flags
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Speaker 1: that make you stop and think, I need to look
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Speaker 1: deeper here? This may not be entirely chemical or this
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Speaker 1: may not be entirely spiritual.
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Speaker 3: Sure. There are definitely things that cause me to slow
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Speaker 3: down and think about assessing things differently.
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Speaker 4: And that differs on the person that I'm treating, honestly.
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Speaker 3: And I think that's one of the things that the
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Speaker 3: medical community has often missed out too, is we need
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Speaker 3: to treat each person as a unique individual that God
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Speaker 3: created them to be. And they don't often fit into
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Speaker 3: patterns that you have been taught necessarily. So I think
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Speaker 3: slowing down and then broadening my assessment of what's actually
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Speaker 3: going on can help me figure out when the red
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Speaker 3: flags do show up, what's really.
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Speaker 4: Going on with the person.
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Speaker 3: But specifically some red flags could be when they have
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Speaker 3: tried everything else and nothing's working.
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Speaker 4: When they have been in.
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Speaker 3: Facility after facility and still nothing has helped.
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Speaker 4: What they're battling with.
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Speaker 3: Or it could be they're practicing in some very dark
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Speaker 3: arts that are causing their mental health problems to exacerbate. Right.
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Speaker 1: We talked about that last week. Angel cards, angel boards,
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Speaker 1: tarot cards, energy crystals, a lot of the stuff that
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Speaker 1: even Christians now are practicing in the church with the
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Speaker 1: intention that God is using this. He made, like Jamie
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Speaker 1: said last week, he made these crystals. Maybe they have
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Speaker 1: a field about them that is from him. It's divine.
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Speaker 1: And of course, I talked about last week and the
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Speaker 1: week before how Lucifer always steals from the Lord what
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Speaker 1: he created, and then he repackages it to take you
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Speaker 1: away from him. Even if it's using his shiny things
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Speaker 1: to get you there. But you've said, for the viewers
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Speaker 1: at home, though, that have missed this, you've said that
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Speaker 1: one of the biggest problems may be that we're simply
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Speaker 1: not asking the right questions. When you're talking to somebody,
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Speaker 1: what do you think maybe are some of the questions
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Speaker 1: that by the time they get to you, no one's
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Speaker 1: asked them? These are questions that have been left out
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Speaker 1: of the conversation.
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Speaker 3: I really think it's the questions of spiritual nature. And
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Speaker 3: it's not the ones about, you know, what church do
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Speaker 3: you go to? What religion do you hold to? I mean,
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Speaker 3: those are important and those kind of can give us
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Speaker 3: a foundation. But I developed an assessment called the Other
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Speaker 3: Influences Assessment. I didn't want to call it the dark
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Speaker 3: oppression assessment or something like that.
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Speaker 4: To scare people.
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Speaker 3: So I just was like the other influences assessment. And
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Speaker 3: we have a version that's geared towards children as well.
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Speaker 3: And basically that comes into play when someone has been
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Speaker 3: meeting with us for a while and we see. There
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Speaker 3: might be something we need to go deeper on. And
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Speaker 3: then we ask questions about their interactions with spiritual things.
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Speaker 3: So it can start as simple as, is there someone
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Speaker 3: in your family who has some odd beliefs? Are there
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Speaker 3: some generational patterns of addiction or things that have happened
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Speaker 3: to you?
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Speaker 4: Have you engaged in some new age or occultic practices?
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Speaker 3: So it's pretty comprehensive in that way, but I can
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Speaker 3: tell you this, these are not questions that your everyday
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Speaker 3: therapists are asking. These are also not questions that your
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Speaker 3: Christian therapists are asking. And so I really feel like
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Speaker 3: God called me to push this out in the form
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Speaker 3: of a book to share this with more people because
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Speaker 3: people are battling spiritual darkness, and we need to know
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Speaker 3: how to assess it properly, which helps with discernment, in
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Speaker 3: order to know how to treat it properly.
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Speaker 1: Natalie, I've got to tell you something. How many weeks
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Speaker 1: are in a broadcast year? How many guests have I
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Speaker 1: sat with? I consider them to be the brightest minds
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Speaker 1: on earth for this time that we're living in right now.
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Speaker 1: And so this is not at all to discredit anybody
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Speaker 1: that I've interviewed over the years and years and years.
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Speaker 1: But without doing that, I will say that what you're
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Speaker 1: offering in this book, what you're offering is the first
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Speaker 1: time I've ever seen it framed this way. So when
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Speaker 1: you say that God called you, I agree with you. Listen,
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Speaker 1: I have a huge, a huge network of naturopathic doctors
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Speaker 1: and people that do psychology work and people that are
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Speaker 1: therapists and huge networks into child advocacy and, you professionals
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Speaker 1: that have taken it on themselves to go champion those
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Speaker 1: that have been damaged and they want rehab for those
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Speaker 1: that have been abused and all the things. I mean,
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Speaker 1: this is what the Horn family is. We're smack dab
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Speaker 1: in the middle of tons of that. And I would
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Speaker 1: say that right now there's one book from one author
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Speaker 1: that's dealing with this very specific framework of spiritual warfare.
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Speaker 1: And of course, I've said for the last couple of weeks,
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Speaker 1: some of the unseen realm. I know Dr. Michael Heiser
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Speaker 1: inspired you greatly, his writing. He was a total hero
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Speaker 1: in Bible theology. But that's Joe Horn telling you that.
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Speaker 1: I've been interviewing people for weeks and for weeks and
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Speaker 1: then years that have turned into... And right now there's Dr.
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Speaker 1: Natalie Atwell. And I'm very grateful that you're going to
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Speaker 1: be with us later in November at the Secrets in
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Speaker 1: Healthcare conference because she's on the circuit, man. God is
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Speaker 1: opening doors. She's meeting the who's who A-list of the
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Speaker 1: brightest minds in the healthcare sphere, the natural healing, the
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Speaker 1: holistic healing. But I think that you're going to be
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Speaker 1: a remarkable addition to that whole what I call the
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Speaker 1: tribe Let's dive into something that's probably going to be
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Speaker 1: a little bit hard to hear. And this is, again,
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Speaker 1: for those that are out there in the kingdom of
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Speaker 1: God trying really hard. But the other thing my father
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Speaker 1: used to say, my late father, Dr. Thomas Horne, he
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Speaker 1: used to say, I'm going to paraphrase this and say
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Speaker 1: this very carefully. But he would say, I've seen a
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Speaker 1: lot of damage done by the church with all of
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Speaker 1: the best intentions. Sometimes he saw great damage to marriages.
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Speaker 1: And it's not that these people weren't trying. He saw
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Speaker 1: great damage to young people. And they meant well, but
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Speaker 1: they were not qualified. They were not trained. And some
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Speaker 1: of the problems they were dealing with, frankly, were above
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Speaker 1: their ability to facilitate it responsibly. But they would take a,
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Speaker 1: you know, let's just take a stab at this thing.
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Speaker 1: A good Lord, he'll work things out. I'm not mocking.
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Speaker 1: I'm saying sometimes you really need someone that God has positioned.
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Speaker 1: to be able to tackle things responsibly. And again, terrible advice.
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Speaker 1: I've heard ministers of God tell spouses, I'm telling you,
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Speaker 1: I've heard this, never tell your wife about this thing
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Speaker 1: you're hiding. It'll only hurt her. Where in the Bible
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Speaker 1: is hiding stuff from your spouse a good idea? Like devastating.
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Speaker 1: But this is all under the roof of the church,
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Speaker 1: the four walls, the white building with a cross on
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Speaker 1: the front. Before anyone labels something spiritually, What medical, psychological,
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Speaker 1: or trauma-related possibilities need to be ruled out first? And
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Speaker 1: have you also seen where really well-intended people have done
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Speaker 1: things as a deliverance ministry and had no clue what
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Speaker 1: in the world they were dealing with and it do harm?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think our spiritual assessment in the way we
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Speaker 3: integrate biblical doctrine into our therapy is really just, we
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Speaker 3: view it as adding to responsible care, not replacing it.
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Speaker 3: And we find value in the other methods that God
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Speaker 3: has given us, such as cognitive behavioral therapy, which I
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Speaker 3: believe is biblical and taking thoughts captive. And how do
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Speaker 3: you do that? What do you replace that with? And
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Speaker 3: that's a form of my treatment model that I.
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Speaker 4: Discuss in the book as well.
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Speaker 3: But I'm so glad you mentioned that because it's, One
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Speaker 3: of the reasons I really do feel like God had
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Speaker 3: called me to this work and gave me all this
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Speaker 3: knowledge and led me to Dr.
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Speaker 4: Heiser's work is because I was.
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Speaker 3: Seeing you know, the mental health community not engage with
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Speaker 3: the spiritual aspects of people's life in the right ways.
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Speaker 3: But I was also seeing the church not engage with
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Speaker 3: mental health in the right ways. And so I found
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Speaker 3: myself in this unique position to really speak out about
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Speaker 3: some things. And that comes in many different forms. It
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Speaker 3: can come in the form of, as you mentioned, people
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Speaker 3: who have deliverance ministries. And I'm not against that, but
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Speaker 3: I think it needs to be very cautious in the
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Speaker 3: way it handles people and their humanity and their trauma
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Speaker 3: and all the things. But then there's also churches who
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Speaker 3: don't even want to acknowledge that. They push everything is
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Speaker 3: mental health now. I think maybe that is because to
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Speaker 3: some degree churches have overemphasized or over-spiritualized certain problems. But
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Speaker 3: I talk about those things in the book and I
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Speaker 3: give some best practices for even people in deliverance ministry
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Speaker 3: because we've had clients come in as a result of
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Speaker 3: being harmed.
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Speaker 4: In those type of ministries. And I'm sure they're well-meaning
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Speaker 4: and they didn't mean to.
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Speaker 3: Do the harm, but you need to see people's trauma
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Speaker 3: the right ways. And you don't need to cast out parts.
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Speaker 4: Of people that were maybe developed.
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Speaker 3: Or something as a result of their trauma. You need
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Speaker 3: to learn how to deal with it in a very humble, gentle,
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Speaker 3: loving way.
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Speaker 4: And some things aren't healed in an instance.
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Speaker 3: In fact, it's usually a long journey with someone. to
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Speaker 3: help them find that place of healing.
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Speaker 1: When you say casting out entire parts of a person,
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Speaker 1: one of the things that I think maybe some of
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Speaker 1: the viewers might've heard you say, and I just want
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Speaker 1: clarification is, are you talking about casting out demons in
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Speaker 1: young people that are not possessed and they're not, and
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Speaker 1: maybe that's a frightening experience. Like, wait, I didn't realize
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Speaker 1: that I was possessed and they're being shouted at. That's
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Speaker 1: another thing that I witnessed. I mean, mom and I,
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Speaker 1: my mother is here today. Oh, my word, in the
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Speaker 1: old Pentecostal evangelical rush of the early 90s. Man, oh, man,
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Speaker 1: I wrote about part of it in my book, Everyday Champions,
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Speaker 1: but just loony tune stuff. Extra biblical loony tune stuff,
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Speaker 1: and it doing great harm. But is that what you
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Speaker 1: mean when things are being casted out of people as
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Speaker 1: this frightening experience, or am I just totally... taking what
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Speaker 1: you said out of context.
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Speaker 3: No, I'm glad you asked that because it does need
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Speaker 3: some explanation there. And do I believe that there are
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Speaker 3: demons and sometimes things need to be cast out? But
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Speaker 3: I think you have to really assess and figure out
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Speaker 3: what it is. What we're finding is people who struggle
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Speaker 3: with what used to be called multiple personality disorder, now
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Speaker 3: it's dissociative identity disorder. And what that is, is that
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Speaker 3: is a disorder where people have, through very dark traumatic
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Speaker 3: experiences as children, they learn to dissociate or disconnect from
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Speaker 3: parts of their body, and they adapt new alters or states,
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Speaker 3: personalities per se, that are adapted to help them survive
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Speaker 3: the trauma in that moment. Well, when you're dealing with
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Speaker 3: someone who has been through the worst abuse and trauma
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Speaker 3: you could ever imagine as an adult, and they're going
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Speaker 3: back to these dark places and trying to integrate these
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Speaker 3: parts into their life, them letting go of something that
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Speaker 3: was helping them survive doesn't need to be viewed at
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Speaker 3: in terms of casting out, but more so integrating and
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Speaker 3: letting them know you're safe now.
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Speaker 4: That's not necessarily a demon that they adapted.
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Speaker 3: It might have been a God-given gift that helped them
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Speaker 3: to adapt to their trauma in that time. And I
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Speaker 3: think when people hear, oh, they have different personalities or
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Speaker 3: they're different things, they think it's a demon overtaking them.
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Speaker 3: And if you don't have the clinical understanding to know,
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Speaker 3: you're not going to handle and deal with that person
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Speaker 3: in the most protected and safe way possible for that person.
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Speaker 1: I don't know if it's, that is so profound. I
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Speaker 1: don't know if this is the same thing, but you're
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Speaker 1: obviously very familiar with object states. This would be in
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Speaker 1: my layman's understanding because I'm not a professional therapist or
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Speaker 1: a psychologist. Probably not even the right wording, but the
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Speaker 1: way I'm understanding it is it's kind of a very
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Speaker 1: light form of that. An object state is a, it's
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Speaker 1: not that you're being overtaken by a completely different identity,
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Speaker 1: but it is a performative version of you. So like
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Speaker 1: Joe Horn, maybe one of my mild object states is
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Speaker 1: creating programming. So when I'm at home, I'm obviously my
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Speaker 1: energy's way down. I have conversations more like this with
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Speaker 1: my children. I move a lot slower. It's more herbal tea.
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Speaker 1: We move very, but then, you know, we're doing content
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Speaker 1: or I'm at a conference and And I don't even
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Speaker 1: know that I'm doing this consciously, but I raise my
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Speaker 1: arms and I'm big energy and it's because I'm communicating. Well,
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Speaker 1: I've been told that people that function that way, they
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Speaker 1: have different modalities, that it is a light form of survival.
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Speaker 1: If you're uncomfortable, you do certain things with your hands. Like,
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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's anything like what you're describing,
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Speaker 1: but people that project these different personas in order to
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Speaker 1: feel safe. So like the mean girl at school. she
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Speaker 1: might actually be one of the sweetest in nature, humans ever,
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Speaker 1: but she's reacting through trauma. So she's gonna be the
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Speaker 1: one with her cell phone that's gonna do like this
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Speaker 1: with her hand and a bunch of other really hip
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Speaker 1: stuff I can't do as a 50-year-old man. But is
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Speaker 1: this making sense? Yeah, it's a self-preservation. I don't know
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Speaker 1: if I'm butchering all this or if you're sitting there
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Speaker 1: about to cry because I'm murdering all of these things
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Speaker 1: and I'm jumbling them together and she's sitting there about
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Speaker 1: to malfunction. But is that like, would a multiple personality
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Speaker 1: disorder or the one that you said they're now referring
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Speaker 1: to in this other.
18:57
Speaker 3: Yes, dissociative identity disorder.
18:59
Speaker 4: There you go.
19:00
Speaker 1: Is that like a really extreme case of what I'm describing,
19:04
Speaker 1: or are they different things?
19:05
Speaker 4: I would say they're different things.
19:07
Speaker 3: But to your point, if you went to someone maybe
19:10
Speaker 3: in your church, hey, I'm struggling. My family says I'm
19:12
Speaker 3: this way here. I'm someone else here. They could potentially
19:15
Speaker 3: harm you if they say, oh, we need some deliverance.
19:17
Speaker 3: We need to cast this out of you. We're not
19:20
Speaker 3: naturally supposed to be the same everywhere we go. Some
19:22
Speaker 3: of it is adaptive and you have to do that.
19:25
Speaker 3: I think it's how is it? interacting your life? Is
19:28
Speaker 3: it helping your life? Is it hurting your life? It
19:30
Speaker 3: just has to be assessed as to what is going
19:33
Speaker 3: on in your life. When I talk about dissociative identity disorder,
19:36
Speaker 3: that is, it stems from, most always research suggests that
19:41
Speaker 3: it stems from the worst forms of sexual abuse under
19:45
Speaker 3: the age of six at the hands of a caregiver.
19:47
Speaker 3: So usually that's the predecessor of what's causing this type
19:52
Speaker 3: of trauma because they can't fight.
19:56
Speaker 4: They can't flee.
19:57
Speaker 3: They can't do all the other ways that our body
20:00
Speaker 3: has been designed to help us survive trauma in that moment.
20:04
Speaker 4: So they dissociate.
20:05
Speaker 3: But unfortunately, as they become an adult, that is associated
20:10
Speaker 3: with a lot of harm because they need to be
20:13
Speaker 3: more consistent in how they are with life and not
20:16
Speaker 3: letting triggers change who they are. But unfortunately, if they
20:19
Speaker 3: go into deliverance type ministry, people are trying to cast
20:23
Speaker 3: out things in them that should not be cast out.
20:25
Speaker 3: It's not the way to deal with it. And so, again,
20:29
Speaker 3: it's about understanding that person. and really learning what is
20:33
Speaker 3: happening here. And that could be a question, you know,
20:35
Speaker 3: like you were saying, you know, with how you are
20:38
Speaker 3: performed differently in different places, you know, it's what is
20:40
Speaker 3: happening to this person, what's going on underneath, and just
20:43
Speaker 3: really asking for biblical discernment as far as what needs
20:46
Speaker 3: to happen with that person.
20:48
Speaker 2: You're saying casting out a part of them that shouldn't
20:50
Speaker 2: be cast out. Can you give an example? How can
20:52
Speaker 2: we How can we as Christians, with the authority of Jesus,
20:55
Speaker 2: cast out.
20:56
Speaker 4: A part of a person?
20:57
Speaker 2: Can you do damage? Now, beyond like the trauma of
21:01
Speaker 2: the experience and like, oh my gosh, you know, people
21:03
Speaker 2: are shouting at me, we're trying to cast out. Beyond
21:06
Speaker 2: the damage of the experience, can you damage a person's
21:08
Speaker 2: soul or personality by casting out something? And for context,
21:13
Speaker 2: the reason why I say this is because when my
21:15
Speaker 2: son was very little, like two or three years, We
21:17
Speaker 2: had a really difficult time. He was a challenge. He
21:21
Speaker 2: couldn't hardly sit still in school. And I had teachers
21:23
Speaker 2: telling me I needed to do something about this and
21:25
Speaker 2: I should medicate him. And I had family members who
21:28
Speaker 2: would just really give me a hard time about his behavior.
21:31
Speaker 2: And I tried all the different types of parenting and
21:34
Speaker 2: gentle parenting and pretty aggressive parenting and all these different
21:37
Speaker 2: things and nothing was having an impact. I did later
21:41
Speaker 2: find out that the hug it out method really helped
21:43
Speaker 2: my son. He couldn't process his emotions and cope. But
21:46
Speaker 2: before that, I was so desperate and I had been
21:50
Speaker 2: reading books about spiritual warfare and I thought, what if
21:52
Speaker 2: this is a demon? What if it's something demonic? And
21:56
Speaker 2: I actually looked at my little son and I said,
22:00
Speaker 2: I rebuke you in the name of Jesus. And he
22:02
Speaker 2: just started crying. And I instantly felt so horrible. What
22:08
Speaker 2: kind of mistake did I make? So can a person
22:13
Speaker 2: do real damage by casting out something that isn't there?
22:17
Speaker 4: Thank you for sharing that.
22:19
Speaker 3: Because as a parent myself, we all do things at
22:22
Speaker 3: times when we're in that place of desperation. And I
22:25
Speaker 3: have done many of those same things. And I will
22:29
Speaker 3: say that, here's what I'll say. While it's harmful in
22:32
Speaker 3: that moment, Possibly if you're not sure what's going on
22:35
Speaker 3: and you're just desperate. And again, we've all said and
22:38
Speaker 3: done things as parents, like you're not alone. But God's
22:41
Speaker 3: grace is sufficient and He will.
22:44
Speaker 4: Help your son to not remember that in that way.
22:47
Speaker 3: But also to your point, I appreciate you asking and
22:50
Speaker 3: acknowledging that there could be a hurtful part of it.
22:53
Speaker 3: And I'm more so referring to in Deliverance Ministries when
22:58
Speaker 3: people think everything is a demon and they want to
23:00
Speaker 3: cast it out. And it's like, no, this person's had
23:02
Speaker 3: some serious things going on. And honestly, to your credit,
23:06
Speaker 3: as a mother, you were really trying to look at
23:08
Speaker 3: it from a holistic approach. And that's what I'm asking
23:11
Speaker 3: people to do is just like, don't assume and go
23:15
Speaker 3: at it holistically, seek the Lord, seek his word. But
23:18
Speaker 3: when we make mistakes, and we will, in the mental
23:21
Speaker 3: health community, in the church, as parents, God's grace is
23:25
Speaker 3: sufficient and there's still time for healing. And your son
23:28
Speaker 3: will not remember that. That will be our prayer for him.
23:31
Speaker 3: But I'm glad you said that because, again, people who
23:34
Speaker 3: are trying to cast out everything may re-traumatize someone who
23:39
Speaker 3: has some deep trauma in their life. And that's just
23:42
Speaker 3: not the appropriate way to handle it.
23:43
Speaker 2: Well, I will say he has he's 13 now. And
23:47
Speaker 2: he has recently given his life to the Lord and
23:48
Speaker 2: been baptized in the church. So I'm hoping no damage
23:52
Speaker 2: was done and that God's grace was sufficient.
23:55
Speaker 4: Absolutely. It is.
23:57
Speaker 3: Yeah.
23:58
Speaker 4: Thank you for sharing.
24:00
Speaker 2: Well, do you think I should go back and talk
24:02
Speaker 2: to him about it now? Do you think it'd be helpful?
24:04
Speaker 2: Or do you think I'd be dragging something up that
24:07
Speaker 2: maybe doesn't need to be spoken about?
24:09
Speaker 3: I think you can certainly approach it with him and say, hey,
24:12
Speaker 3: when you were little, do you remember this? And see
24:14
Speaker 3: what he remembers. Kind of assess the situation with him
24:17
Speaker 3: And if he does remember it, then say, hey, I'm
24:20
Speaker 3: realizing as I'm learning and growing and in the Lord and.
24:22
Speaker 4: All these things that I may have could have done
24:25
Speaker 4: that differently.
24:26
Speaker 3: And I just want to apologize, you know, and let's
24:29
Speaker 3: think about what I would have done differently. And I
24:30
Speaker 3: think that could be very powerful for him in him
24:34
Speaker 3: growing even more in the Lord.
24:36
Speaker 4: And I want to encourage churches.
24:37
Speaker 3: The same, that if you feel like you've had a
24:40
Speaker 3: deliverance ministry, that maybe you've done things the wrong way.
24:42
Speaker 3: You haven't used the right language or you've used practices
24:47
Speaker 3: that may have pushed people further into darkness or harm
24:52
Speaker 3: or re-traumatize them.
24:54
Speaker 4: There's still hope.
24:55
Speaker 3: And it's okay as a church to say, hey, we're
24:57
Speaker 3: sorry for how we've done things.
24:58
Speaker 4: We're learning. We can do things a different way.
25:00
Speaker 3: I find churches do that when it comes in the
25:04
Speaker 3: areas of, hey, we didn't deal with sexual abuse in
25:07
Speaker 3: the church right, but now we're going to.
25:09
Speaker 4: So there are ways.
25:10
Speaker 3: I think it's very powerful and it's human for us
25:13
Speaker 3: to say we've made mistakes, but hey, God's showing us
25:16
Speaker 3: how we can do it differently.
25:18
Speaker 4: And so that's actually one.
25:19
Speaker 3: Of the encouragements of the book too, is I don't
25:21
Speaker 3: want it to make people feel shame, but I want
25:24
Speaker 3: it to make them feel hope that there are better
25:27
Speaker 3: ways and good ways to be able to deal with
25:30
Speaker 3: the beautiful humans that he's created us to be and
25:33
Speaker 3: the ones that he's given us to interact with.
25:42
Speaker 1: Well, ladies and gentlemen, I want you to know that
25:43
Speaker 1: right now you can get Dr. Natalie Atwell's powerful new book,
25:47
Speaker 1: Humanity Under Siege, The Unseen Realm and the Spiritual War
25:50
Speaker 1: Against the Mind, at edensessentials.com by itself for only $ 24. 95
25:56
Speaker 1: plus shipping and handling. Or you can take advantage of
25:59
Speaker 1: a very special three-book package we've put together that includes Dr.
26:03
Speaker 1: Thomas Horne, The Early Years Exploring Spiritual Warfare, demonic strongholds,
26:08
Speaker 1: and the unseen battle all around us. Plus, his best-selling book,
26:12
Speaker 1: Summoning the Demon, a prophetic investigation into artificial intelligence, transhumanism,
26:18
Speaker 1: and the biblical image of the beast. So you can
26:21
Speaker 1: help support this program when you purchase Humanity Under Siege
26:24
Speaker 1: all by itself for only $ 24. 95 plus shipping and handling,
26:28
Speaker 1: or get all three books right now for just $ 39. 95
26:32
Speaker 1: plus shipping and handling at edensessentials.com. You can scan the
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Speaker 1: QR code on your screen right now to take advantage
26:39
Speaker 1: of this special opportunity right now. It's not a special
26:46
Speaker 1: opportunity that you're going to want to miss. And if
26:47
Speaker 1: you're wondering just now, you know, Natalie, I've given my
26:51
Speaker 1: whole life to the church. I've done ministry. Maybe I've
26:54
Speaker 1: gotten some things wrong. Or what are you saying? You
26:56
Speaker 1: can't do anything with deliverance unless you get a PhD first.
26:59
Speaker 1: My answer would be this is a great place to start.
27:03
Speaker 1: because we're never going to have time in this program
27:06
Speaker 1: to properly qualify and train and disseminate all the information
27:09
Speaker 1: that you would need. But this book is a great
27:11
Speaker 1: place to start in answering some of those questions about
27:14
Speaker 1: where to maybe start helping or not helping in your
27:18
Speaker 1: help in terms of the approach via your families or
27:22
Speaker 1: your churches. As we wind up what has been an
27:25
Speaker 1: incredibly fascinating three-week series.
27:28
Speaker 2: Yes, much needed.
27:32
Speaker 1: What do you say to the person that's watching these shows?
27:35
Speaker 1: And they say, Dr. Natalie, I'm exhausted. I have tried everything.
27:40
Speaker 1: I pray, I read, I visit, I fill in the blank,
27:45
Speaker 1: I've done Medicaid, all of the things, every doctor, every
27:48
Speaker 1: style of everything. And they've done everything that they know
27:51
Speaker 1: to do and they're starting to lose hope. They're beginning
27:55
Speaker 1: to think, man, I'm still not free. And for Christians,
27:58
Speaker 1: sometimes it's worse because again, the Lord did not create
28:02
Speaker 1: me this way. And then there's the shame and the
28:03
Speaker 1: guilt of feeling. So why do I feel these feelings?
28:05
Speaker 1: Where do they go?
28:06
Speaker 3: Well, I would say, first of all, don't panic and
28:08
Speaker 3: that there is hope. And the way I have found
28:11
Speaker 3: hope in this topic is to start asking better questions,
28:15
Speaker 3: to think about holistic treatment, to think about things and
28:18
Speaker 3: ask God, what am I missing?
28:21
Speaker 4: And to then, you know, seek the community that you have.
28:24
Speaker 3: Maybe there's a therapist that you can go to who
28:26
Speaker 3: can ask some deeper questions. Maybe you can introduce them
28:28
Speaker 3: to this book or this material. You can Talk to
28:31
Speaker 3: your pastor about different ways. But the hope is that
28:33
Speaker 3: they walk away more discerning and seeking biblical wisdom and
28:39
Speaker 3: that they're more grounded in Christ and who he has
28:42
Speaker 3: called them to be, who they're supposed to be, and
28:45
Speaker 3: how they are supposed to interact with and help others.
28:48
Speaker 1: I just want to say, before we run out of time,
28:51
Speaker 1: as I'm listening to Dr. Natalie speak, I'm thinking, really,
28:54
Speaker 1: this is a clinic. And really, this ought to be
28:57
Speaker 1: distributed to churches everywhere. Friends, if you're a person out
29:00
Speaker 1: there that feels called to do this, buy a case
29:02
Speaker 1: of these. Wherever it is you buy books, go to
29:05
Speaker 1: Eden's Essentials and buy three of these packages. Hand one
29:08
Speaker 1: to your pastor and say, hey, see if this doesn't
29:10
Speaker 1: maybe open your mind to some things, maybe help you
29:13
Speaker 1: get started down a new path. You can also find Dr.
29:16
Speaker 1: Natalie Atwell online if you want to follow up and
29:18
Speaker 1: learn more about her.
29:20
Speaker 3: At mentalwarriorconsulting.com. And I would love to interact with you.
29:24
Speaker 3: Love to hear what you think about the book.
29:26
Speaker 1: Well, ladies and gentlemen, how much did you enjoy three
29:29
Speaker 1: weeks of Dr. Natalie Outwell? We certainly pray that you
29:35
Speaker 1: learned a lot, and we hope that you check out
29:38
Speaker 1: the book, Humanity Under Siege, by Dr. Natalie Outwell. Dr.
29:40
Speaker 1: Natalie Atwell. Ladies and gentlemen, for everybody in studio, Dr. Natalie, Jamie,
29:44
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being right here at Life TV.
29:46
Speaker 1: Now again, I'm Joe Artishorn. Keep your eyes on the prize,
29:49
Speaker 1: which is Jesus Christ. We'll be back.
30:03
Speaker 4: Thank you.