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Prostate Cancer In Prison: CEO survives it all, The David Grosky Story · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:01
What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
0:04
Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome to the Nightmare Success In and
0:07
Out podcast where we explore how to overcome your fears and
0:10
nightmares that set yourself free.
0:13
We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
0:15
Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
0:20
These stories can be inspiring, sometimes sad, there's some
0:23
humor, but hopefully you can come away with a nugget of
0:26
something that'll help you knock down some of the prisons you
0:29
built up in your own mind. All right, welcome back
0:34
nightmare success in and out, listeners, This is where you
0:37
come from. What happens when your worst
0:38
fear becomes your reality? How do you adapt, survive,
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overcome, set yourself free. Don't forget to follow,
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subscribe, share, like comment. It helps the show.
0:48
OK, so I've got, I got David Grusky with me, who is my guest
0:51
today. And, and it's an interesting
0:54
story because you know, he, this is a guy that was CEO of big
0:58
company and it's, it's in looking at it and reading about
1:03
it, it's, it's somewhat of a complicated case.
1:05
You know, the, the, you know, it went from SCC to criminal.
1:09
He was the CEO. He was also an attorney, but he
1:14
got, he got a terribly long sentence.
1:18
He got 14 years. He did 11 years, but he did
1:21
really good work while he was in using his brain, helping people
1:27
while he was in those eleven years and, and working on his
1:30
own case and helping other people with their cases.
1:33
And then when he got out, he's he's continued to be that type
1:36
of guy. I was just talking to him about
1:38
he got the Hinda Hero of the Year award and it's about it's
1:44
given to a client who embodies successful second chances in the
1:47
spirit of giving despite facing insurmountable challenges.
1:50
And, and I think you got that last year, year before that.
1:54
And he's continued to do really good work.
1:57
I can't wait to get into all this with David.
2:00
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Tell them Brent from Nightmare Success sent you David welcome
2:42
in. How are you my man?
2:43
Hello, Brent, and thank you so much for having me today.
2:47
So, you know, Dave, we were just talking beforehand, you know,
2:50
the the experience you've had and I think you've been out
2:54
about five years now. And, and we were just talking
2:57
about our kids and weddings and just the idea of being back and
3:02
being in the moment of, of things, you know, of what's
3:07
important. You know, not that we didn't
3:09
have things that were important before we experienced the
3:12
nightmare, but you really come to a whole nother perspective of
3:17
how you live the rest of your life, your second chance.
3:20
And and you know, I think the reason I brought that up about
3:23
your award, you know, that's one of those things that you are
3:26
using your experience to help other people, probably because
3:30
of your broaden perspective of how you feel about that and and
3:34
how that makes you feel. But let's go back a little bit.
3:38
Take us take us back to to David growing up, what was your life
3:42
like kids or your siblings and your mom and dad?
3:46
What was what was your life like growing up?
3:49
Grew up rent in the North Shore of Chicago.
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I went to high school there. Went to College in the Midwest.
3:55
Indiana University and law school in Chicago.
3:58
Chicago Kent College of Law My upbringing there were challenges
4:03
and yet it was a good upbringing overall.
4:05
When I look at when I try to be objective and look at, you know,
4:09
the big picture of everyone in this world and the challenges
4:13
they face, I'd have to say that even though I think there were
4:16
challenges for me for sure, overall I think it was a good,
4:19
good upbringing. Very loving parents, love loving
4:22
extended family with family, cousins and a beautiful,
4:27
wonderful sister. I have one sibling.
4:29
She's three years younger than me.
4:31
Growing up, we had, I think moving in different directions
4:36
early, but particularly during the events that followed that
4:39
lead us to our discussions today here.
4:42
We then and then to this day have become very, very close.
4:46
And I'm very, very honored to be, you know, have her love as I
4:50
do. And the support that I do,
4:51
actually the love and support of my mother, my sister and my two
4:56
daughters throughout this whole situation was was very, very
5:01
critical to my mental and physical health on an ongoing
5:06
basis. Unbelievable level of support
5:08
from the four of them. Sadly, I lost my dad in 2009,
5:14
very close to my dad. He only saw me one time in
5:16
prison and that was very, very difficult.
5:20
And you can imagine, I think when you find out that a parent
5:23
passes when you're in in that situation, not only do you not
5:28
really have a healthy ability to heal during those moments, but
5:33
just the whole, all of the logistics surrounding learning
5:36
of a parent's death in a prison environment.
5:39
Again, not being able, generally speaking, to attend the funeral,
5:43
very, very difficult time too. But I will say about my
5:46
upbringing, my family, when, when the cards were dealt and
5:50
stacked against me and when I was going through very, very
5:53
difficult time, those four individuals and a couple of very
5:57
close friends stood by me very, very well.
5:59
And obviously, or at least I'll say obviously, for me that was
6:04
very critical. Oh, for sure.
6:06
And I, I can't imagine, David, that feeling because I was with,
6:09
with a couple of different people that lost somebody while
6:12
they were in prison. And I don't think there's
6:13
anything like that feeling of totally being confined that you
6:17
can't be where you want to be when you believe you need to be
6:21
there. And did you have any opportunity
6:24
to, was there any discussion at all of furlough of you being
6:28
able to go to the? Funeral.
6:30
The length of my sentence precluded me initially from
6:33
being at a camp. A minimum facility, minimal
6:37
security. I'm sorry, facility where that
6:39
is on occasion and pretty frequently allowed.
6:42
Not permitted is a rule really in lower, medium or high
6:46
security institutions. So I didn't even make the effort
6:49
because I really knew the answer.
6:52
What they allowed for was if there was a video of the
6:55
funeral, it could be sent to the prison.
6:57
I could watch it in the chapter, but in this case there wasn't
7:00
and that wouldn't have been satisfying for me.
7:02
Anyway, no. And I, it's a, it wouldn't.
7:04
And I remember, it brings back the memory to me is, is I was
7:09
about halfway through my sentence.
7:10
And if somebody gets sick and I had my dad that was in prison, I
7:17
was actually at a visit and the visiting guard CEO came up to me
7:23
and asked if he could speak to me.
7:25
And I, I thought there was something wrong or he was going
7:27
to close, you know, stop the visitor, you know, all those
7:30
crazy things that go under mine. And he told me that he had a
7:32
friend of his that worked at Marion Prison and that my dad
7:37
had gotten so sick that he'd been taken to Saint Louis from
7:41
Marion, IL and he was in a coma. And the strange thing about all
7:48
that is, is that most of the time you don't, you're not the
7:52
only time that they alert somebody of a condition is if
7:57
somebody dies. And it's it's, it really makes
8:01
you feel you and I were talking about this beforehand.
8:04
It makes you feel like you're so far removed from the world when
8:10
something like that happens because you're you're, you're
8:13
not able to do the normal things you do.
8:15
And that's that, that's that whole freedom thing that that
8:18
is, is taken from you. And it, it's, it's mental, it's
8:22
physical, it's all those different things.
8:24
But I think a death really brings that into a whole
8:27
different perspective of, of not being a son and and a father and
8:32
you being able to go that I can't imagine the and of.
8:34
Course, the other feeling of that, the other real challenging
8:37
aspect of it too, of course, is, and I'm sure many of your
8:39
viewers can relate to this, is the ability in the normal world
8:43
when you go through that grieving process, you're sharing
8:46
that with, you know, physically and you have the presence of
8:48
those loved ones. Yeah, your family.
8:51
And in a prison environment, of course.
8:53
And in this particular case, even then, even if you are lucky
8:57
enough to find a few good people and, and, and friends in a
9:01
prison environment, This happened with me so early.
9:04
I had no one really. So I really was alone, very
9:07
isolated, not being able to even go through the grieving process
9:10
with any people who you know, I would like to with you.
9:14
Know yeah well, it's it's it's a strange environment too, because
9:16
you're around so many people but you feel alone and it's it's a
9:20
it's a very strange dichotomy of that so let's talk about when
9:24
you when you. I mean, you did a lot of
9:28
different things getting to a point of, you know, getting
9:32
through law school, going to College in Indiana.
9:36
How did you get into where you were with the CEO chairman?
9:42
Is it euphoria? Is that how you say the name?
9:45
Ephora. Ephora how did that all get
9:48
it's? A kind of convoluted story, but
9:50
the long and short of it is, is that I became one of its initial
9:53
investors, OK. And through that at that point
9:56
there had been about $1,000,000 raise.
9:58
The idea was this company had been founded by a physician in
10:01
California. Sounded like it was doing pretty
10:04
incredible things though. HIV research, mad cow research,
10:07
there's all kinds of different. Things initially focused just on
10:10
HIV rapid testing and some very, very prominent relationships
10:15
with the University of Maryland's Institute of Human
10:18
Virology, Doctors Gallo and Constantine, which were very
10:21
prominent researchers in the field.
10:24
I became an early investor, fairly significant investor in
10:27
this company concept, because it was at that point they hadn't
10:31
actually had a test. They were developing it, and
10:34
that was really the sole focus. Ultimately, we expanded into
10:37
many other testing areas. Was it a, was it a because
10:42
somebody, it's an attorney, Had you always kind of thought that
10:45
you would veer into business? Well, I was, I was going to say
10:49
that, that I was always a dissatisfied attorney practicing
10:53
law, largely because I made for me and particularly in
10:57
retrospect, the wrong choice for myself.
11:00
I'm a person who was more of a business developer personality
11:04
than a desk paper pusher type of person.
11:07
But I was always in the role of paper pushing at the desk,
11:11
almost got to the point of loathing the, you know, the,
11:14
the, the career is so this is so often the case.
11:18
The golden handcuffs, you know, comes into play where you're
11:21
making enough money, you have a family, you have children.
11:24
And the thought of leaving it to, for instance, because I've
11:29
always loved sales and that's what I'm actually doing now,
11:32
having to then veer into that, at least for several years, why
11:36
you'd be building that, not making enough to really pay the
11:38
bills. That's what the golden handcuffs
11:41
concept because so that's what really I think happened to me.
11:44
And then what happened was there was great satisfaction building
11:48
with the CEO, founder of Ephora. So the largest shareholders
11:53
approached me and asked me would I support through a shareholder
11:56
proxy, a removal of him and a substitution with me.
12:02
And they were proposing to me an initial salary that would be
12:06
satisfactory that I could care for my family.
12:09
So I said to myself, it's a risk, of course, because we
12:12
don't know if this company is going to succeed, but it is a
12:15
good opportunity for me at least for a year to make a a living
12:19
and actually forced me to leave a career that I don't haven't.
12:23
Yeah, right. So I had the support of my wife
12:28
and family and I did it. And at least early on, I was
12:32
very pleased not only with what I thought was the direction of
12:35
the company, but also having made the decision to leave the
12:39
practice of law, which I thought was very important for me to do
12:41
at some point. Right.
12:44
And I think that's a really good point.
12:46
Just, you know, from a lot of people listen to this show that
12:49
that haven't gone to prison like we have, but they, they get
12:52
stuck, you know, that they what you said, David, is, is in your
12:57
case, you didn't like what you were doing, but it was something
13:00
that you were making money with. And the golden handcuffs.
13:04
A lot of people, I think, you know, get institutionalized in
13:07
their own world of, you know, they have bad marriage, bad job,
13:11
bad childhood, whatever those things are, and they stay in
13:14
that rut because that's the the thing they know.
13:17
That's the, that's the ugly routine.
13:20
They know. And it's, it's so difficult for
13:21
people to step out of that, which you did step out of it.
13:25
You, you got into something that you know from from all
13:29
appearances, look like you got into it and grew it and it
13:32
became, you know, something that was making a play in the market
13:38
of of issue. HIVI mean, obviously it's been
13:41
around since the 80s and and it's still around.
13:45
It's not talked about as much, but it's it's, it's still people
13:49
living with it. Yes.
13:51
And it was a very credible team that had put been put together
13:55
to create this test, which was ultimately created.
14:00
And that's something we'll discuss as we move along in our
14:02
discussion how that unfolded. But I was very excited to take
14:06
on the role. I put a team together, moved the
14:09
company from California to the Chicago N Northern suburbs, took
14:13
took up shop if you will in Buffalo Grove, moved a couple of
14:17
times, ended up in a fairly large facility in Buffalo Grove,
14:21
actually 2 buildings adjacent to one another, and built a
14:25
company. Ultimately almost a little under
14:27
100 employees with scientists from Bayer, Baxter and Abbott
14:32
Lab, some of the leaders in the field.
14:34
I ended up being not even the CEO of the highest paid
14:38
employee, but I was willing. During the 10 years of my
14:42
tenure, although the board of directors approved the $250,000
14:46
a year salary, I wasn't comfortable taking it until we
14:48
were profitable. So for those 10 years, I only
14:52
accepted $100,000, which, you know, for ACEO is in a terribly
14:56
great amount of money. But I was comfortable doing so
15:00
because I thought that that's the right thing to do.
15:03
And again, in the early years, things look, things look very,
15:07
very. So in in how things happened,
15:11
can you walk us through when things got where you get murky
15:17
or that you felt like something was coming on you from the SEC
15:20
or was it a surprise or, or were you feeling like something was
15:24
going on in the company with what was happening or how how
15:30
did it happen? So, and I don't want to get too
15:34
technical with the laws, but there are many, many regulations
15:37
surrounding the Securities and Exchange Commission and what is
15:40
allowed and not permitted with respect to private companies
15:43
raising capital. One of the fundamental tenets of
15:47
raising capital in the United States, the rules that relate to
15:52
the raising of capital for private companies with the SEC
15:56
is that you have to adhere very strictly to certain rules when
16:01
you're raising money with private investors.
16:04
You're very limited with respect to how many of these investors
16:07
could be what's called unaccredited, meaning that
16:11
financially wealthy in simple terms either from a income,
16:16
annual income or net worth perspective.
16:18
But also many other rules relating to what you can pay
16:23
brokers for raising the money going the need to go in from
16:28
time to time into what are what is called a quiet period in
16:31
between offerings. And as the years unfolded
16:34
because of the needs of the company.
16:35
Some of these rules were violated by me and the company
16:40
with the idea being that we would offer rescission.
16:45
This is gets a little complicated, but you're offering
16:48
the investors their money back if they think that they're not
16:51
comfortable with how things unfolded.
16:54
But in order to do that rescission, there would need to
16:58
be that amount of money that's been raised today, put into like
17:01
an escrow account, held there until that rescission offer is
17:06
concluded, offering the people their money back.
17:08
And it was elusive for us over the years because as we continue
17:11
to raise money, we didn't have enough money to complete the
17:14
rescission. So kind.
17:16
Of like a chicken and the egg thing.
17:18
There was a lot of chicken and egg, but in retrospect, when you
17:21
talk about a pond reflection, what do you regret?
17:24
I think I said earlier, and I, I made this clear, that one of my
17:27
major objectives was to leave the practice of law.
17:30
I didn't want to practice law anymore, and I was very excited
17:34
about a new career. But when things began to unfold
17:38
that was putting myself, my family and the company at risk.
17:43
There should have been I should have made more of a bold
17:46
decision to make decisive moves to either end it or figure out a
17:54
different strategy. And I continued upon a course
17:56
which was unwisely dangerous. Which I think happens a lot with
18:01
entrepreneurs. You've got believing that things
18:04
would work out before things became.
18:06
Good. Exactly.
18:06
I mean, part of being an entrepreneur is, is, is
18:09
believing in your product, believing in your company and,
18:12
and you're going to make it to the next step.
18:14
And I think that's it's, there's a whole amount of risk that goes
18:18
with that. That is different than somebody
18:20
that just goes to work every day and, and and says, OK, what do
18:23
we got to do today? The person who's growing the
18:25
company at the top of the food chain is having to figure out
18:28
all these different things. And you know, at the end of the
18:32
day, you got to think, is it worth the growth?
18:37
Am I putting the company too much at risk?
18:39
Can I risk this amount to be able to get a bigger amount to
18:43
get to the growth that I need? And and I think, you know,
18:46
there's a lot of different things that that go along with
18:49
that, but there's a lot of pressure that goes along in that
18:53
and sitting in that chair trying to figure out if if you've made
18:58
the right call. That's a very good point.
19:00
I think actually the not having in retrospect, particularly with
19:05
our Board of directors wise advisors either didn't help me.
19:09
I became too myopic and too focused and I couldn't see
19:14
didn't allow myself to see objectively as things were
19:18
progressing is much appreciating the dangers, always believing
19:23
and still believe. By the way, we could talk about
19:25
this too, that because there was no theft and there was no bad
19:28
intent to damage an investor ever because I was the largest
19:33
investor in my interest were aligned to the investors who
19:35
actually brought me in initially, of course, to become
19:37
CEO, right That I never I never had one ounce of an intention
19:42
for anyone to be hurt yet that's it odds with taking steps from
19:48
time to time that could be hurtful to those investors.
19:51
So it's a it's a strange dichotomy and it's a strange set
19:55
of circumstances in terms of some of those inconsistencies.
20:00
And ultimately, if these cases morph, as it did, into a
20:03
criminal setting, the federal sentencing guidelines, in this
20:08
case, of course, became federal. Do not differentiate or
20:13
distinguish between one who? Actually sets out to hurt the
20:17
investor and steals money and one who does not.
20:20
Right. Those considerations are right,
20:22
really, Not formally. Talking about sentencing.
20:25
Guidelines. Yeah.
20:26
So I often say to people my sentence, which was tremendously
20:29
long given their objective circumstances, I believe I was
20:34
treated really no differently than a Bernard Madoff, for
20:37
instance, who admitted ultimately.
20:40
He had. Interviews that he never had any
20:43
intention of providing any return to anyone from day one.
20:46
Yeah, his whole intent from the beginning was, was to create a
20:52
facade and and fake reports. And he had a whole, he had a
20:56
whole floor that did that. I I think his whole thing is
21:00
fascinating how he was able to pull that off the way he pulled
21:03
it off, as long as he pulled it off.
21:05
But you know. And the public also, Brent
21:08
doesn't really have an understanding and it's it makes
21:11
sense that they wouldn't largely that most of these type of cases
21:17
like mine remain a civil case. Why?
21:21
Because the federal government, US attorneys do not simply have
21:24
the resources to bring all of these cases into a criminal
21:28
setting. So if you were to study as I did
21:31
then and have done since SEC cases in this genre throughout
21:36
the years, people would be amazed at how many, or so much
21:40
at least appear to be so much far more serious than mine in
21:44
the sense of clearly theft intentions from the beginning.
21:48
Even more money involved in mine and these cases never became
21:52
criminal. Right, they have big settlement
21:54
and a five, Yeah and. They would have been an
21:56
automatic prison sentence for individuals, but they got very
21:59
it was a matter of luck in the sense that those particular
22:03
jurisdictions and prosecutors didn't have the manpower.
22:07
They chose other cases over that case because they can only
22:10
choose so many to indict criminally.
22:13
And that's what happens. What I always I never thought
22:15
mine could ever become criminals because of the realities of how
22:19
I saw the situation, but what I failed to recognize is it simply
22:23
takes one federal prosecutor to to determine otherwise.
22:26
Exactly that one guy. Life, of course, is turned
22:29
upside. Down that one guy says no, I I
22:31
want this case. This case is, is the one I'm
22:33
going after. So when you when you were going
22:37
through with the SEC stuff, is that what you thought was just
22:39
going to happen and you were going to you're going to work
22:41
through this with them. You might end up with a fine.
22:45
When did it start to turn for you that you felt like things
22:48
were not going the way that you thought they were or what you
22:52
had intended that that would probably happen?
22:55
Well, probably a year after the initiation or the beginnings of
22:59
the SEC case, the FBI came and raided our facility and then I
23:04
knew it had already begun to morph.
23:06
And then I got word also through third parties that there were
23:10
some federal subpoenas being provided to certain witnesses,
23:13
employees of before etcetera. So I knew.
23:16
That that sends up the radar signals.
23:18
Yeah. Now the other thing I want your
23:20
viewers to know, and this is not rare, is that these pre, you
23:26
know, pre indictment, pre prison scenarios often times takes many
23:31
years to play out when you talk about the stress of the
23:34
situation. You know, my release as I told
23:37
you was in April of 2019. This case began in 2001 as an
23:44
SEC case. And so and I didn't report to
23:48
prison until September of 2008. So when?
23:52
When? Seven in, in in seven years of
23:55
hell. In the sense that during all of
23:58
that, by the way, and this was discussed in my sentencing by
24:01
the prosecutors for alleged or her representation of me being
24:06
so brazen, in the sense that Mister Grossky continued to
24:09
raise money during all of this. Well, yeah, I did, because
24:14
basically they were shutting us down.
24:16
If we were shut down, of course everyone would lose their money.
24:21
Now that doesn't justify it either, but that's what I did.
24:24
Yeah, the company. Alive so didn't help me
24:27
obviously in the end, but you know that that was again a
24:31
choice. When you were going through
24:32
that, because that's a long time, seven years, because I
24:35
went through six years of it, Were you were you in a cocoon or
24:41
did you, were you reaching out, talking to your family, telling
24:45
them, hey, this is this is what's going on.
24:47
This is this is what I think might happen or or what what was
24:51
in your mind? What was happening at?
24:53
That time cocoon, because I would have to say that basically
24:57
it had been a cocoon many years prior to those seven years, so
25:01
it would be very difficult. It was such a complex situation
25:05
in many respects that to share it with family or friends, you
25:09
know, arguably would take weeks of discussions.
25:11
And frankly, I didn't even have the energy at that stage
25:14
because, again, I was still so caught up with trying to keep
25:17
the company alive, right? That that even made it more
25:20
difficult for me because, you know, I'm in a cocoon, not even
25:23
able really to talk to anyone in a meaningful way.
25:26
Yeah, and I, I. How that played out.
25:27
And I think about like with, with my situation, I, I went
25:31
through six years of it and never once had a conversation
25:34
with the FBI or the prosecutors. Did you?
25:38
I have the opportunity to ever talk to the person who was
25:40
putting you down. Oh, yeah, There was a reverse
25:43
proper. It's called when they're trying
25:45
to, you know, convince you, I guess, to just plead guilty.
25:48
They basically share with you in a meeting with your attorney the
25:51
evidence they have, much of which in my case wasn't accurate
25:56
or was contrived. I mean, I actually ultimately
25:58
pleading guilty went through, I'm not kidding, 11 drafts of
26:01
the plea agreement with the government agreeing to take out,
26:05
I would say 5060% of what I believe were, you know, clearly
26:10
false allegations. Ultimately they turned to me and
26:13
said you're either going to sign this now after the 11th draft or
26:17
that's it. Now, my view was at that point,
26:19
there still may be another 30% of clear falsehoods, but I
26:24
signed it because had I in my case gone to trial, I would have
26:27
lost. And in losing that 14 years
26:31
could have become 20 to 25. And at my advanced age then that
26:35
I couldn't take the risk. However, again, speaking to your
26:40
viewers, the average person in our society, you know, the
26:44
average layperson who sees that you've signed a plea agreement
26:48
and sees what you've signed on to come to the logical
26:52
conclusion that you must have done all those things, right?
26:55
But it doesn't necessarily mean that because you're so pressured
26:59
to sign. And I want to also say this, and
27:02
this is a very important thing to point out.
27:04
I think it's actually very telling and it's a, it's a
27:08
thematic point I want to make for your viewers.
27:11
So they really clearly understand what we're dealing
27:14
with these days in the society, with the, with the federal
27:16
government, etcetera. I told you that our facility was
27:20
raided at one point by the FBI. And when, when that raid
27:24
occurred, the, the concept or the idea of the, of the FBI and
27:29
the federal government at that point was that our company was
27:32
involved with complete bakery. In other words, our tests were
27:35
not actually real. It was a fake company.
27:39
So the FBI agents walked into our labs during the raid and
27:42
demanded of our scientists that they do a demonstration of the
27:45
HIV test for them. When they did that
27:49
demonstration, the reaction of the FBI agents was, Oh my God,
27:56
this actually works. We thought it was fake.
27:59
The next week there was an article in the Chicago Tribune
28:04
basically provided being provided information by the
28:07
prosecutors that it's a fake company.
28:11
That was their narrative, yeah. So the point here is, is that,
28:16
and then the reason that happens is twofold. 1 is in my view, 1
28:19
is there is no pushback against the federal government.
28:23
You can't sue them civilly or criminally.
28:25
The prosecutors, they're immune. They know that.
28:29
And when they perpetuate a knowingly false narrative, not
28:34
only do I have no recourse, but what it also is doing is it's
28:38
infecting the jury pool in my jurisdiction.
28:40
So they're basically saying to me, if you had any idea of going
28:44
to trial, don't do it because you've just absolutely lost
28:48
because all of these prospective jurors know you're guilty based
28:52
on this article. So basically the point of view I
28:55
want your or the concept I want your viewers to understand is
28:59
once they know that you're guilty of something, what they
29:03
often do is tremendously exaggerate the narrative to, you
29:08
know, it's all, it's like the old adage, you know, step on you
29:11
when you're down even, you know, harder.
29:14
And that's what they do because they're going to make sure they
29:16
win at any cost. And even though it's a lie, or
29:20
perpetuating certain falsehoods or lies, it's OK to.
29:25
Get that? To get that.
29:27
At a guy that had a National Mortgage company on here and he
29:30
was talking about, he said you can go to trial with them, but
29:35
he said it's like the LA Dodgers playing your beer softball team.
29:39
He said it's probably not going to end up well.
29:42
And you know, that's why I think you see 97% of the people that
29:46
that get indicted, they, they do a plea bargain because their
29:50
risk of, of going to task and going to trial carry so many
30:00
traps and, and years. And and you know in your case,
30:05
David, how did you, when you, when you came to that plea
30:09
bargain and you worked yourself through 11 drafts, did you know
30:12
that you were looking at the minimums that could be 14 years?
30:17
Well, my attorneys had told me we know what you and I know what
30:20
APSR is, but a pre sentence investigation report sets forth
30:24
what the government believes would be an appropriate sentence
30:27
and it's based on, I guess you could say, a point system.
30:31
Right point system calculation, yeah.
30:32
And in my case, it came out to 235 to 296 months, which is a
30:40
lot longer than I even got. Now, my attorneys, and one of
30:43
them was a very savvy sentencing attorney named Jeff Steinbeck,
30:47
very well known in the Midwest, one of the top people here.
30:51
He said, listen, don't even pay attention to that.
30:56
Not only aren't you going to get that, we're going to make sure
30:59
you get 10 years or less and we're going to get you to a camp
31:02
because that's remember I mentioned that.
31:03
Was it 10? Years or less.
31:05
Low security to begin with because of the length.
31:07
Anything over 10 years, you have to begin at a low.
31:12
One of the regrets I have, but of course I listened to my
31:16
attorneys. I hadn't had any experience in
31:18
criminal law in my life before. My own case is that I had a lot
31:24
of supportive letters from investors who lost from
31:27
$2,000,000. The largest investor, a lawyer
31:30
in Chicago, you know, the hundreds of thousands of
31:32
dollars, and they wrote very supportive letters in support of
31:35
me, which were never presented at sentencing.
31:38
Because Mr. Steinbeck's point of view, which I think was in
31:42
error, particularly in retrospect, was that once you
31:45
plead guilty, to come in with positive letters could end up
31:50
hurting you significantly at sentencing because you're almost
31:54
like trying to minimize. The problem with that though, is
31:58
by not doing it, you're not humanizing.
32:01
Yeah, no, I was going to say that the whole reason for the
32:04
letters is to present a side that the judge isn't being
32:07
presented so that they can see there's an actual person there
32:10
that has done some things in their life that present
32:13
themselves in a manner that doesn't show up in your pre
32:16
sentencing report. And in my particular case, so
32:18
many of these investors wrote about how they would regularly
32:22
spend time with me and the company on a regular basis over
32:25
years, not months, and how I never lied to them ever.
32:29
And was very open and very. And I think in if it would have
32:34
been presented in the proper context, not minimizing, but
32:37
presenting it to humanize it could have been very helpful.
32:41
You know, the, the objective here by my attorneys was to, to
32:44
have a result of about nine years.
32:46
And I have to tell you, given the state of current affairs, I
32:50
think I'd be sentenced to half of what I was.
32:52
It's just a different time now. It's a whole different time.
32:54
At that moment, not only was Madoff, you know, and I can't
32:59
compare my case. No, but it was the Madoff era.
33:02
It was the Madoff era and there was Thomas Petters in Minnesota
33:06
got 50 years. A lot of I, I guess you could
33:09
say similar cases, but much more severe.
33:12
And yet you're talking about one guy got 50, another guy got 150.
33:17
And my judge was seeing those at that moment.
33:20
So in his mind, possibly 14 years is, you know, is is worthy
33:26
of consideration. Now, the other thing that didn't
33:28
help me was I was a litigator and a regular participant in
33:34
cases in that federal courthouse.
33:36
I was a member of the federal trial bar for many years and up
33:39
to 7th Circuit in Illinois. I appeared before this judge who
33:44
sentenced me many times and he made it a point at sentencing to
33:48
say how disappointed he was in me as a member of the federal
33:51
trial bar that I have engaged in these matters.
33:56
And so that didn't help me either.
33:59
So there were a number of things that, you know, ended up not
34:01
helping me in that respect. But, you know, I, it's, it's
34:06
very difficult given the fact of what I believe my intentions
34:10
were and that I never not only took a dime, I lost my own over
34:15
$1,000,000 for those 10 years. So when you look at it, I didn't
34:19
only not make money, I lost a lot of money net looking over
34:23
the whole period. And yet I received a sentence.
34:28
I don't know. I'm not saying there hasn't
34:30
been. I don't know that there's many
34:32
cases like that in this type of case where a person didn't even
34:36
get a personal benefit. Yeah, right.
34:39
Jail for? That I, I thought that was
34:41
interesting reading through your, your material.
34:45
I want to talk about your next step of, of entering into a low
34:51
because I, you know, you went to a different world than I went
34:54
to. I went to a federal camp.
34:56
But before we do, I want to recognize the Nimer Success
35:00
podcast is sponsored by the White Collar Support group, the
35:03
world's first support group devoted to people navigating the
35:06
white collar criminal justice system.
35:08
I'm a member of the White Collar Support Group and I can tell you
35:10
this is a bunch of people who help each other through the
35:12
criminal justice journey for free.
35:15
Whether you're just starting your journey or you made it
35:17
through to the other side, this is a great space for you.
35:20
You can join us on Zoom Monday, 7:00 PM Eastern Time, 4:00 PM
35:23
Pacific. For information, go to
35:25
prisoners.org. That's prisoners.org.
35:28
Also want to say that the White Collar Support Group is having
35:32
their first White Collar conference, which is October
35:36
19th. If anybody wants to register for
35:38
that, just go to whitecollarconference.com and
35:41
you can register there October 19th.
35:44
So David, you, you go through this whole process of seven
35:49
years, you get sentenced, you've get 14 years, you have to wait
35:54
to figure out where you're going.
35:56
If it's anything like what I did, did they did they remand
35:59
you immediately into custody or did you get an opportunity to
36:03
have a month or two out and before you went in?
36:07
I did and spend it with my kids quite often and then self
36:11
surrendered, self reported to FCI Loretto and Pennsylvania of
36:15
all places. And I say that because it's very
36:17
far from home, which then necessitated I was at 3 prisons
36:21
in all there, FCI Morgantown and FCI Mylan in Michigan.
36:25
For both Loretto and Morgantown. I had to, you know, my family
36:31
had to fly to come see me, which was very burdensome, sure, and
36:34
otherwise. Yet they did 2 * a year on
36:38
average. And I had a couple of very dear
36:41
friends who visited me once a year to all of the years,
36:44
regardless of where I was. I was very blessed for that and
36:47
very, very grateful. And but the question often
36:52
becomes, why are they sending you so far from home?
36:55
Because the objective they say anyways.
36:57
To keep you connected to your family and friends.
37:00
To the family. So, you know, you wonder about
37:02
that, but actually there were two other defendants in my case,
37:05
one of whom was able to go close to home.
37:07
The other wasn't. I don't know exactly what the
37:10
protocol is and how they make those decisions, but you know,
37:12
one has to wonder. You never know.
37:14
I I also think that whenever you ask to go somewhere, that's
37:17
something that you definitely won't get.
37:20
Exactly. Well, we laugh because we know
37:23
it's whatever you ask for in general within that.
37:25
You won't get right other. Direction.
37:28
Walk, Walk me through your world of you're you're a guy that was
37:32
an attorney. You were ACEO you, you
37:34
voluntarily surrendered. What was that like for you, that
37:37
walking into the unknown? An absolute relief because, and
37:44
that what that underscores is the pressure that I was under
37:46
for. All those years.
37:48
You know, 10 to 15 years. Yeah, a relief.
37:52
And not only that, a relief from leaving my community where I was
37:56
completely scarlet lettered at that point.
38:00
I'll never forget the feeling of relaxation as I'm walking into
38:04
the Animal House. I say that because literally I'm
38:08
walked from the psych. Well, I walk into the prison.
38:12
I'm greeted at the door by the psychiatrist who says are you
38:15
suicidal? Better say no.
38:18
And I said, if I'm suicidal and I just flew into a hotel about
38:22
two miles away, wouldn't I have hung myself there, right?
38:26
So anyway, he didn't laugh. But the point here is, is that I
38:29
walked in very relaxed, very quiet at the prison.
38:34
It was around lunchtime. And as they're walking me to my
38:36
room, I'm walking all by myself in a hallway because in the low
38:41
security you have what's called 10 minute moves.
38:43
You don't have freedom of movement.
38:45
So for 50 minutes an hour, there's no movement in the
38:48
hallway. So I'm walking by myself with a,
38:50
with a correctional officer heading me to my, my bad, new,
38:55
bad space. And all of a sudden it's almost
39:00
like 1/2 of a city block away. I see the bars because the gate
39:04
is closed for these, that particular wing of the prison,
39:08
You know, all the inmates are like clamoring, you know, the,
39:12
the shaking, the bar. It's like, almost like felt like
39:14
animal house. It was surreal.
39:18
I mean, you've never seen anything like this in your life.
39:21
And I'm walking towards this and yet through all of this I'm
39:26
still very relaxed. And I was relaxed the entire
39:29
time I was in prison. So your fear factor of that
39:34
world was overtaken by your relief of having this nightmare
39:42
that you just experienced behind you, and now you were going to
39:46
get on to the second part of this.
39:48
Yeah, I think that's a good, good way to state it.
39:52
How were you received? Because I know that you I when I
39:56
asked that question, I know that you were somebody that helped a
39:58
lot of people, which actually builds a lot of respect in
40:01
prison. And that and that actually began
40:03
two weeks after I arrived. So for those first two weeks,
40:07
difficult because, you know, a white lawyer in prison is a
40:12
rarity. In a low.
40:14
In a positive and a negative way, Yeah.
40:17
You know, on the one hand, you're an unwanted guest, I'll
40:21
leave it at that, with the with the large population there.
40:26
On the other hand, once I began to do the legal work, I became
40:30
like a superstar in their eyes, which made me feel good.
40:33
Absolutely. You don't want to be in
40:35
uncomfortable spot throughout this whole thing.
40:37
No. And then and that's something,
40:40
if you can help somebody in prison, you can walk different
40:45
in prison. And and that's just the way that
40:47
primitive environment is. But you had something happen to.
40:50
You know what what became difficult early on, though, I
40:53
was so busy so early that what happened was certain of these
40:57
inmates thought they quote UN quote owned me and only time.
41:02
OK, so then what would happen is on occasion they would turn on
41:05
me and say, you know, you're doing too much for these other
41:08
guys. You're supposed to be my guy.
41:10
That be that could become difficult too.
41:12
So ultimately I figured all that out, but it was tough in the
41:16
early going. Yeah, I think the two, you know,
41:19
I've talked to so many people that, you know, I, I've gone
41:23
through, you've gone through, I've talked to 140 people on
41:26
this show that have gone through.
41:27
I, I think that the person you are on the outside is who you
41:31
are on the inside, and that's how you'll do on the inside.
41:34
However you lived your life. Absolutely.
41:36
Accurate. Yeah, but you ended up having
41:39
something happen to you, David, that you never want to have
41:43
happen to you. You, you've got prostate cancer.
41:46
How does, how does that, I mean, what in the world goes through
41:49
your mind being in prison and thinking you've got prostate
41:52
cancer? And how did they, how did they
41:54
identify that well? No symptoms although and I
41:58
actually you know, and the lawyer in me was thinking, do I
42:01
have a lawsuit because no symptoms and yet I did have a
42:05
recognized on the record enlarged prostate, which
42:09
generally leads one as a physician to do an earlier PSA.
42:14
But remember I mentioned I started at Loretto.
42:17
I was then moved to a camp in Morgantown and when I got to
42:20
that camp, that particular position at that camp, as a rule
42:26
would give those 50 and older APSA test regardless of
42:31
symptomology. In this case, had I met because
42:36
of the ultimate aggressive diagnosis of this particular
42:39
cancer, had I not received the FPSA that year upon my 50th
42:44
birthday is right when I arrived, I probably very likely
42:48
wouldn't have made it because of the aggressiveness.
42:52
What began as a stage 1 or two would have been a stage 4.
42:56
Wow, wow. So again, divine intervention.
42:59
However, yeah, I see. Because as we all know, in a
43:03
prison environment, the physician is typically not your
43:06
friend, the dentist or the physician in those prisons.
43:09
No, you can't even get a dentist appointment unless you want to
43:12
get your teeth pulled. That's how.
43:15
How about I don't, I've not talked to somebody who had
43:18
cancer when they were in prison. How?
43:20
What's treatment like and what what goes?
43:22
What goes on with that? Well, I was very fortunate
43:25
because as you know, to be given a choice is very rare in prison.
43:29
They gave me a choice of whether I wanted to be moved to Butner,
43:34
which is affiliated with Duke University, and that's where the
43:36
cancer inmates go. Cancer diagnosed inmates.
43:41
Or I could stay at Morgantown, go to the University of
43:45
Morgantown's Cancer Clinic Cancer Center, which was highly
43:49
regarded. I learned, and I chose the
43:52
latter. Why?
43:54
Because I didn't want to be in an environment with sick, dying
43:57
people at Butner. And I figured if I could stay in
44:00
my routine because at that stage I was doing a lot of heavy
44:03
workouts and staying in great shape.
44:06
Yep, and stay in A at least of the two a healthier environment.
44:10
Yeah, you're in a routine. I would do that.
44:13
They allowed me to do that. What they did not allow, which
44:17
would be common if you're not in prison, is the ability to both
44:21
see a surgeon and radiological oncologist to determine in this
44:24
particular case whether I should have my prostate removed or not,
44:31
because it's a significant number of issues involved with
44:34
both aspects of that. I was only able and permitted to
44:38
see a radiological oncologist. And so that was the treatment I
44:43
received, which in retrospect, probably was a good thing for a
44:49
variety of reasons in my favor. So I received very, very fine
44:53
treatment at at Morgantown. However, at least initially, my
45:00
diagnosis was very bleak. There was an 88% chance that the
45:04
cancer had already spread to my brain and bones, which would
45:07
have by definition been at stage 4 diagnosis.
45:11
I got very lucky in the scan, I was in that 12% where it had not
45:15
spread. So today, as we're speaking, I'm
45:18
12 years in remission. You're the 12% guy.
45:21
Wow, so. My my immediately.
45:23
And that was like a year and a half into your sentence.
45:26
Exactly. Yeah.
45:27
So my my e-mail address when I came out of prison was D
45:31
Grossky, 1288. There it is.
45:35
I saw that. I, I didn't know what the 1288
45:37
was. You're the 12% guy, 1288.
45:42
So you get through this now you you're still looking at time,
45:48
like real time. Still 10 years surprise.
45:51
How how did How did? How did you being a smart guy,
45:56
being a goal or in a guy, being a guy that always was in
46:00
control, how do you, how do you bite off 10 years?
46:03
How do you work through that? Well, for me, as I say, I stayed
46:08
very, very busy. When I say busy, when you're in
46:11
a prison environment doing this kind of legal assistance for
46:14
these inmates, when you're not doing the work, you're still
46:18
talking the issues. So sure, I never was not working
46:21
really. What that did in a positive way
46:25
was kept me very engaged intellectually and otherwise
46:28
because I had to, you know, research the cases, write up
46:31
these cases. That was a positive.
46:34
And in retrospect, I can tell you the time went very fast in
46:39
that sense. But as I was mentioning before
46:41
we began today in our earlier discussion, it didn't allow me
46:45
time or I chose not to have the time to reflect upon my life.
46:50
And that began really when I exited prison, which was really
46:53
is regretful because I could have accomplished a lot.
46:56
I think on that, on the inner work more when I was in.
47:00
Had I been spending more time being deeply reflective in that
47:04
way? Well, and, but there were things
47:06
that happened to you that would have had an effect of this is
47:09
real time that you're doing your dad dies, you, you miss out of
47:13
your daughter's, you know, the high schools and, and the
47:16
graduations of the dances and those things.
47:18
But you had to be pretty resilient to get through that
47:21
because those are times and, and experiences you have.
47:25
And I, I, when I, when I even had those words coming out of my
47:28
mouth. I, I, I think of, you know, my
47:30
youngest daughter won A state championship in tennis.
47:33
And I remember going back and forth to the phone trying to get
47:36
updates, you know, on that tennis match that was going on
47:39
and you could only, you had to get back in line and all those
47:43
things, you know, as a dad, you know, I would have given almost
47:47
anything to be there. And but I strangely was able to
47:52
kind of work through that match and, and experience it in a
47:57
totally different way. But David, you went through all
48:00
those years being busy, which I, I know that's like number one
48:06
thing is, is stay engaged, stay busy, get in a good routine, get
48:09
a good prison job, do, do all those things.
48:12
But you had to be pretty resilient to walk through that.
48:15
I think I am resilient. I've always said.
48:19
This is kind of my statement about myself.
48:21
I've always considered myself a great survivor, but not a great
48:24
thriver. Meaning I'm a natural,
48:29
resilient, surviving type of person and yet when things are
48:33
going well, I'm almost more comfortable in the other
48:37
situation. Very strange thing that is I
48:40
don't I don't experience success.
48:43
Do you think another shoe's going to drop or is it just
48:45
something that you're you're, you're you get there and you're
48:48
unsure of the surroundings of it, that something's going to
48:50
happen? I guess I just said the same
48:53
thing. No, Maybe.
48:54
Maybe so, maybe so, you know, I think it's that that would take
48:58
a little bit of deep therapy. Yeah, that's a long couch
49:00
therapy session. Well, let's talk about this.
49:05
You get close. You know, it's six months out
49:08
and you've been in a long time. What starts going through your
49:12
mind? You're getting that close to the
49:13
door, you start thinking, I think.
49:16
We all going through that are excited to be leaving, Yeah.
49:19
But as I look back now, and I think about this every now, I
49:23
really didn't deeply think about what's coming next.
49:26
There are many unknowns, of course, particularly.
49:28
Like all unknowns, really. Employment for instance, you
49:30
have no clue how that I received a gift to God on that score as
49:33
well. You know, really not a lot of in
49:37
depth analysis of it at the time.
49:38
You were just excited you're going to be getting out, Yeah.
49:41
But but also apprehensive about the unknowns.
49:44
Oh gosh, yeah. I think that's the this I was
49:47
going to. Say, concerned about being, you
49:50
know, will I be institutionalized?
49:52
Yeah. As you may know, there have been
49:54
studies done on people who've done more than a decade.
49:57
Well, studies on people who've done between 5:00 and 10:00 and
50:01
then 10 and over. Yeah.
50:03
And there's been a notable difference in individual's brain
50:08
chemistries, which I believe anyway, it will manifest
50:13
differently person to person, particularly over the 10 year
50:16
mark. Yeah.
50:17
And I say often to people, and it's true to this day, and I've
50:20
been out five years. Often times I feel out of sorts.
50:25
What I mean by that is uncomfortable where I never was
50:28
like that before I went to prison, like almost fearful and
50:32
uncomfortable. And I think part you're, I don't
50:34
know if you ever saw the movie Shawshank.
50:36
It's one of my favorite movies of all time.
50:38
But Brooks and his discomforts about the idea of being out much
50:45
more extreme than my example, but akin to it.
50:48
And I think that's part of it. I think however you would want
50:51
to define it, in my particular case, there's an element of
50:56
emotional and psychological institutionalization from so
51:01
many years of that type of different life.
51:06
Yeah, and I think you know the other thing I.
51:07
In my case, chose to embrace because when you're in that
51:10
long, it's your home. It is your home and, and it's
51:13
one of those things, and I'm sure you saw it as I saw it,
51:16
there were people that would put hands on a guard.
51:19
They'd do something to to get more time because they actually
51:23
were afraid because freedom and society on the outside had
51:27
become the unknown. Being inside had become the
51:31
home, the routine, the ugly routine that you hated, but you
51:35
knew it the best. And and that's the whole thing
51:38
about Shawshank. You know, Brooks, he hangs
51:41
himself. He can't do the outside world,
51:43
whereas red he, you know, carves his initials in there, Dexter
51:49
Brooks and he he has hope because of Andy.
51:53
And you know that hope is is either you have it or you don't.
51:57
And and how you use it going forward, you're going to need it
52:01
because re entry is really tough.
52:04
It's one of the things that so. To survive it for me, I
52:07
convinced myself I needed to find comfort in that
52:10
environment. Yeah, but in finding comfort in
52:13
that environment, there were consequences once released.
52:17
Interesting. Let's talk about that because re
52:20
entry for you, you get released. It's, I mean, first of all, I,
52:25
you know, over a decade stepping back into society, David, what
52:28
was what was that like? Like what was the?
52:31
So let me let me kind of explain because this is interesting.
52:34
So in the year and a half preceding myself surrender and
52:40
after I was ousted ultimately formally from the company, I
52:43
took a job with a company in Buffalo Grove called Visaplex.
52:49
And the company knowing I was under indictment, nevertheless
52:53
hired me believing as he reviewed the case that it might
52:57
not be as severe as I thought, but in any event I could go to
53:00
prison. So this could be a short term
53:03
employment. It may or may not because at
53:05
that point I obviously had not pled guilty.
53:07
And I became the company's in house.
53:09
I still have my legal license. So I became the company's in
53:12
house legal counsel because they were going through some
53:15
litigious and other legal issues which were ultimately fully
53:19
resolved and also became it's Vice President of new Business
53:23
development. And I was there for about a
53:26
year. And he said to me when I was
53:28
leaving to go to prison that if and when you get out, if there's
53:32
a place for you, I'd like to have you back.
53:35
But of course you don't know timings, everything.
53:37
Would there be an opportunity? Would I be interested in it all
53:40
this time? So when I exited prison, I came
53:44
to see him mainly focusing on a letter of recommendation for any
53:48
job I'd interview for. And as it so happened, he wasn't
53:53
terribly pleased with the person who was in a particular role in
53:56
a sales management position and he offered me a position which I
54:00
accepted. Wow.
54:01
And so I returned to the company and I've been here for now over
54:05
five years. That's a great story.
54:07
You know, it's all about, you know, those those connections
54:10
you make and, and finding people that believe in you or your
54:14
situation. And that's not an easy thing for
54:17
any employer these days because as we know, employees in that
54:22
particular company are going to Google search the new guy.
54:25
Immediately. And, and this became an issue
54:28
for him with one or two employees, I could tell you and
54:31
he stood strong and said to them, go back to your desks.
54:34
This is a guy I support. Do your work.
54:37
It's huge. Don't worry about this.
54:39
And you know what that takes a lot of?
54:40
Courage. Oh yeah.
54:41
I mean a lot. So, David, when you, when you
54:47
get this job, you're in the you're, you get this
54:51
opportunity, but you've been in for 10 years.
54:54
What, what is your world like outside if you got the job?
54:58
What's what's going on on the other side, personal side?
55:01
There's many things. On the one hand, having stayed
55:04
engaged intellectually and otherwise doing work all through
55:07
prison was a help in that regard.
55:09
I also was basically a technological neophyte at that
55:13
point and this is a job that's demanding in that area.
55:16
So it was very and continues to be challenging in many respects.
55:21
I also have certain skill sets that have allowed me to do well.
55:26
So I feel I've performed well. I believe the company feels I've
55:29
done well and I've been advancing every year since I've
55:32
been here with promotions etcetera and it's worked out
55:35
very well. It's a true nightmare success
55:38
story. The the volunteer work that you
55:43
did, how did that come about? So my sister introduced me to a
55:47
local rabbi who introduced me to this particular rabbi at Hinda
55:51
whose wife created that that aspect of the Chabad presence
55:57
the the the creation of Hinda was dedicated to Lubavitcher
56:02
rabbi in Jewish the Jewish world.
56:05
His vision that because I'm in the Torah, other than murder,
56:10
the idea is, or the concept is people shouldn't go to prison,
56:14
Jew, Jews, but people shouldn't go to prison.
56:17
So one of the missions of the Chabad groups around the country
56:21
has been to support the idea that those should not be
56:26
imprisoned for these type of crimes.
56:27
And if they are very minimally so the the mission of Hinda is
56:32
to support in particular Jewish families and their loved ones
56:35
who are incarcerated. Now I do many other things for
56:38
Hindu, deliver Passover meals to needy families, you know, during
56:44
the holidays. It's not just legal aspect, but
56:47
I'm on its legal board of directors.
56:49
I was a director. Now I'm on the legal side of
56:52
things only. And I teach a course every year
56:55
that is on tablets in many of the state prisons throughout the
56:58
United States. Now on re entry issues I teach.
57:01
It every year. And I'm continuing to teach it
57:04
every year, so that's my main focus.
57:06
I love that. In in, on occasion I assist
57:10
families counseling, assisting them getting through difficult
57:13
times, talking it through and assisting inmates with legal
57:17
work. Still the same way when I say
57:19
that, what I mean by assisting them on what's called a pro SE
57:23
basis. In other words, I'm not a
57:24
licensed lawyer anymore, attorney anymore.
57:26
I can't sign and go into court right?
57:28
But I could assist as their scribe if that makes sense.
57:32
Well, and that's all good We're and this is on the adobo
57:37
platform. It goes into 900 prisons.
57:39
So it's a great story for people to hear that are they're on
57:43
their tablets and listening to these shows.
57:47
David, I always ask this question to people who are on
57:50
the show. I'm interested in what your
57:53
answer to this is, is what do you think's your greatest take
57:56
away through all this that you've experienced on your
57:59
journey? Having the self-awareness and
58:01
honesty to self reflect and and acknowledge the mistakes you
58:06
made, what you might have done differently and how that would
58:09
have been a benefit to you and your family had you done
58:12
something different. But also the embracing of
58:17
gratitude for the positives. As I mentioned to you earlier, I
58:22
could very easily not have this case morph into a criminal case,
58:27
right? I could have been diagnosed with
58:30
the prostate cancer. Maybe I would have been in the
58:32
88%, not the 12, and I would have died.
58:35
So it's about the gratitude for having having that life, being
58:40
it, being able to walk my daughter down the aisle and
58:47
being there for my children. Yeah, it's gratitude is such a
58:50
big thing. And I, you, you and I feel when
58:55
you say that because you and I were talking about that before
58:58
we got on the, the idea that you, you get to share those
59:01
moments and, and times and places that you're just glad
59:06
you're there. You're, you're grateful that
59:07
you're there. And it's, it's a, it's a feeling
59:10
that I hope I, I don't, I don't think it'll go away from us.
59:12
I think it's just something that sticks with us with that.
59:16
Speaking of gratitude, I want to thank Homestead Financial, who
59:18
lets me use this podcast room with all these fancy cameras and
59:22
stuff. And if anybody has home mortgage
59:25
needs, Greg Afdev is your guy. He knows it all.
59:30
And if you got time, if you want to read a book out there, I've
59:33
got One Nightmare Success. It's on Barnes and Noble and
59:37
Amazon. And if you've got more time, I
59:40
know it's kind of a hassle, but if you can leave me a review on
59:43
Apple, it really helps the show. And don't forget to follow and
59:48
subscribe. brentcassidy.com is where my website is.
59:52
It's spelled wrong. It's with a Ty, not a DY.
59:55
It's a new website, just only two weeks old.
59:59
And as I used to say to my people when I was writing my
1:00:02
emails back and forth from Leavenworth, stay strong.
1:00:06
I'll do the same. David, thank you so much for
1:00:09
your story today. I, I, I love what you're doing
1:00:12
and the work that you're doing. You're, you're balancing it all
1:00:15
out and making it all work. And it's, it's, I think it's
1:00:20
inspiring to a lot of people to hear it.
1:00:22
Brent, thank you so much and it was, I hope it could be helpful
1:00:25
to someone listening to this and it was very.
1:00:27
It will and. Cathartic for me as well.
1:00:29
So it will all right nightmare success in and out.