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Riverbend Malt House with Brent Manning: Malt, Craft Beer Trends & Hurricane Helene Episode 99 Part 2 · The Brewery Underground Podcast | Craft Beer Interviews, Reviews and Beer Travel

0:01
Stand by for the. Brent, we in going into this I
0:41
assumed beer, right? All the malt goes to beer, but
0:44
that does not, does it? No, no.
0:47
So we guys. Looking at your website, as
0:49
Steve referenced earlier, the great fantastic website that you
0:51
have. Fantastic website.
0:54
You have some whiskey connections too, and actually
0:56
one that's in Tennessee if you want to talk about that
0:58
Chattanooga whiskey I saw on your website.
1:00
Yeah, yeah. So we, so we find ourselves to
1:05
be kind of a secret sauce for a lot of distilleries.
1:10
If you look at bourbon in its most clear, unadulterated form,
1:15
you're talking about a recipe that's mostly corn, more than 51
1:20
by by law, typically more like 70 to 80.
1:23
And then you'll have, you know, a portion of either raw wheat or
1:27
raw rot and then anywhere from 5 to 15% malted barley, that being
1:32
called upon to do some pretty heavy lifting in terms of
1:36
converting all the starch in that corn into something that
1:40
can be utilized by yeast. So it's kind of a different
1:44
animal. Most distillers are looking for
1:48
higher enzyme products. But in the case of of sort of
1:52
modern craft whiskey, most folks are tamping down that corn and
1:57
bringing up the malted percentages in.
2:00
That also helps do the support better conversion or easier
2:04
conversion. I should, I should say, but
2:06
probably more importantly brings in a lot of interesting flavors.
2:10
So when you sort of make the decision to swap out some of
2:14
that corn for like a dark Munich or a Crystal malt or a Munich
2:20
rye or something like that, you're bringing in some really,
2:24
really bold flavors into the mash.
2:27
That is a much more pronounced than a raw wheat or a raw rye
2:31
can deliver. Because most of the time a
2:34
distiller of mall, if driven just for enzyme production, it's
2:38
going to be kind of bland on the flavor profile.
2:41
Maltsters don't have the ability to kiln at very warm
2:45
temperatures to develop a lot of complex flavors because those
2:48
higher temperatures will knock down the enzyme levels.
2:51
So when we say, oh, we've got more malt to work with, we want
2:55
more flavor, all sorts of doors open up so we can do a for for
3:00
grain bourbon. It's still bourbon by law, but
3:04
has a whole host of new, more exciting flavors than kind of
3:09
your your standard everyday stuff.
3:11
Have you heard of, so we've talked beer, we've talked
3:13
whiskey. Have you heard of any unique or
3:16
any other, say, facets or industries that use malt that
3:19
maybe you weren't expecting, whether it's drink or food
3:22
products or anything like that? You know, there, there's some
3:26
bizarre things out there. You know, one thing we're one
3:29
thing we're looking at is the food industry is looking to step
3:35
further and further away from artificial colors.
3:38
And so specialty malt can deliver that color and some
3:43
pretty similar flavor profiles and in more natural origin.
3:47
So that's one thing we're exploring, but we're always
3:51
keeping our eye out. You know, we have a partnership
3:54
with a chocolate French Broad Chocolates here in Asheville.
3:57
They use our dark Munich in one of their special releases.
4:01
And so there's tons of fun stuff like that going on.
4:04
Yeah. Real quick, the place and I just
4:07
imagine everywhere you walk in your facility, whether it's the
4:10
offices or the warehouse or whatever, everything smells
4:13
good. I think it's got to smell good,
4:14
right? You got a.
4:16
Smokehouse over here, you're smoking things, talking.
4:18
It's like I just imagine. It does most days.
4:21
You know, Brian and I have both tuned our, our olfactory census
4:26
so where we can open the front door and be like, OK, what's
4:30
wrong? So something falls off you, you
4:32
know, and we'll walk over and, and we'll check with the guys
4:35
that run in the production and they'll be like, Oh yeah, yeah,
4:39
the kiln cut off on batch #2 in the middle of the night.
4:43
And we're having to catch up And, you know, it's like, OK,
4:47
all right. And then, you know, we've run a
4:50
several different smoked products.
4:51
And so that's always fun, too, to open the door in the morning
4:55
and you get that waft of like, pecan wood coming through and
4:58
you're like, oh, yeah, we're working on that recipe, you
5:01
know, working on that order for, you know, XYZ distillery.
5:05
And so, yeah, the flavors are good.
5:07
And our new, relatively new neighbor of poppy popcorn in
5:10
town. Oh boy.
5:12
So they're more than artisanal popcorn in the sweet over.
5:16
And so we we get there like caramel popcorn flavors coming
5:20
through our offices. So it's smells pretty good in
5:24
there. Not a bad combination.
5:25
Maybe you could guys could do some kind of collab somewhere.
5:28
Right, we're trying. They they've been so busy.
5:30
They they got a deal with the Bucky's.
5:32
Yeah, so they got the Bucky's chain deal and they have had
5:35
their heads down ever since then.
5:38
Yeah, I, I live in an area and I live South up in Nashville where
5:43
they just broke ground for a Bucky's a thing.
5:45
It's going to open in about a year or so.
5:47
It's going to be crazy. No, Brian, I'm curious, you
5:50
know, you you Co founded the company in 2011.
5:53
How has your role in what you do evolved and really kind of
5:57
changed from when you first started till now?
6:00
Yeah, no, great questions. When it started and for for
6:04
many, many years, Brian and I were, we were shuffling grain.
6:08
And so I don't think I was taken out of production duties until
6:14
2018 or 19. So, you know, we were, we were
6:18
both standard entrepreneurs, you know, wore all the hats.
6:21
You know, I would come home from a day of, you know, shoveling
6:26
grain and I would send out invoices for my, you know, sofa
6:30
at night and then get back up and do it again.
6:33
You know, and I think now my, my current title is chief strategy
6:37
officer. And so that kind of puts me in
6:39
the role of I always say, you know, it's like listening for
6:42
the the first hubs of the Buffalo, you know, you want to
6:45
get the front end of that herd. And so I'm always in charge of
6:49
like, what is the industry doing next?
6:51
What's happening? And so I think that's probably
6:54
the biggest shift is, is going away from production.
6:59
And the only thing I'm involved with in production right now is
7:02
QA QC. So I still taste every batch be
7:06
a hot steep that leaves the malt house.
7:09
So, but I'm not shoveling anymore.
7:11
I've held roles as you know, sales director, all sorts of
7:15
stuff again, wearing all the hats.
7:17
The one thing I was very happy to get is when they looked at me
7:20
and they said, Brent, we don't want you to ever touch
7:22
QuickBooks again. And I said, fair enough.
7:25
That's great. I wasn't at it anyway, you can
7:28
have. So we, we've had, you know,
7:30
several talented accountants come in and, and drive that for
7:34
us and I'm thankful for them. So, yeah, it's been a, it's been
7:38
a hell of a ride. But I, I still spend a lot of
7:41
time with our customers. Technical sales and recipe
7:45
development is still something I really get into.
7:48
You know, I wish I could tell you I knew I had a feel for
7:51
where the industry is going next.
7:53
I don't Yeah, for the first time, I think I've gone a full
7:58
12 months without like I think this style is going to pop next.
8:03
You know, it's like I'm I'm not seeing that it if anything, the
8:06
style funnel is getting a little bit more narrow.
8:09
Everything's yellow, I feel like, and everything very much
8:13
so five to seven ABV. And that's why I'm so thankful
8:17
to have a beautiful Doppelbach to drink because.
8:20
Yeah, well, does. I started joking before.
8:23
You know, you see some of these different beer styles that come
8:26
along and we joked about Scott and I did about the like the PB
8:31
and J beers that have become like a big deal with breweries
8:34
around here. And I don't know, you know,
8:36
we're we're parts of the country if it's everywhere or not, But I
8:40
don't, I don't even know if there's even feasibility for you
8:43
guys if so many contacts you and say, hey, by the way, because
8:46
you're like, we don't know. I mean, that may be that may be
8:49
a fad that lasts two or three months.
8:51
So. Yeah, You know, all I can say is
8:55
throughout all these fads, we thought a lot of them were going
8:58
to take us out. You know, when when seltzer came
9:02
on, cider came on. And, you know, you, you look at
9:05
their growth curves and we're like, all right, well, that's
9:08
it. Everyone's going to drink cider
9:10
now. And then you watch their data,
9:12
like fall off a Cliff. And now the thing that we're
9:15
watching is THC drinks. You know, like those things are
9:19
going. I don't know what Tennessee's
9:20
approach is to them, but the Carolinas are starting to kind
9:24
of mainstream them and meaning they're in grocery stores
9:28
instead of just head shops. And that's interesting.
9:32
But, you know, again, experience teaches wisdom.
9:35
And I'm, I'm less concerned now. It's like, I know you're going
9:39
to have their pop and, and and they're going to just have a
9:43
real tangible impact on beer sales for, you know, three to
9:48
six months, maybe a year. And then people are going to be
9:51
like, all right, been there, done that THC just make me
9:53
sleepy next, you know? Yeah.
9:57
Yeah. Well, and Scott references
9:59
earlier and I know he kind of asked you about this.
10:01
That's, you know, we've been doing the podcast for about two
10:03
years. And it's something that I would
10:05
say, Scott, when you say over the past year or so, we, you
10:08
know, when we have talked to Brewers and we personally have
10:12
experienced that, you know, loggers have really become a big
10:17
deal again. And.
10:18
Drinking another one, yes. Yeah, exactly.
10:20
And but don't you think that Brent that helps you because
10:23
you're going look, things are coming full circle again, right?
10:25
Yeah. I do I'm so excited for this I
10:29
mean, and I give full faith and credit to Brewers who just
10:33
absolutely willed this trend into existence.
10:37
Mean yeah we we've been wishing and hoping and and and you know
10:43
cheerleading the year of the lager since probably 2018 or 19
10:48
and I think 2324 and now we're we're kind of we're there you
10:55
know everybody is I would and I would venture most breweries are
10:59
are are measured just as much by their IPA as their lager
11:03
portfolio now and sure I think that's a beautiful thing and yes
11:07
it absolutely helps us it helps craft malt.
11:10
It's a beautiful entree into what else is in this beer that
11:14
I'm tasting it. It's, you know, the yeast by
11:17
design is kind of taking a back seat.
11:19
The hops are restrained. They're serving a much more
11:22
straightforward purpose of kind of just cleaning up your palate.
11:26
And it's it's really for the Brewers technique.
11:28
What are chemistry choices and malt character that are driving
11:32
these? And we're excited.
11:34
We're here for it. And we're trying to just keep
11:36
products in front of the Brewers that they find interesting and,
11:41
you know, politely elbow our way into the brew house into styles
11:46
that were previously only the domain of of.
11:49
German ingredients, I think these traditional beers that
11:53
we're just talking about, I think it's what's going to save
11:55
when I say craft beer, maybe even make it grow because we're
11:58
kind of flat, you know, the last couple years.
12:00
Ultimately, at least with breweries opening and closing,
12:03
that might be the thing that saves it.
12:04
And they might even be a thing where those that aren't making
12:07
it will and they got to make them well, because like you
12:09
said, you can't hide behind anything.
12:11
It's got to be good, but also maybe it brings back some old
12:15
world styles that haven't been produced, at least not produced
12:17
in this country. Still along those lines.
12:19
Sure. Yeah.
12:20
You know, things like that. It's like, hey, let's we
12:23
discover that these are good. Let's discover a few other
12:25
things along the same lines. Are still pure and traditional
12:27
and right. And they're not so strong that
12:30
you can't hang out and have a couple.
12:33
And yeah, you know, I think that that's a big piece of it is kind
12:37
of restoring that that third place, you know, it's like, is
12:42
there a spot I can go that's that's truly a part of this
12:45
community? And can I bring my family or my
12:48
buddies or whatever and we hang out?
12:50
You know, we see a lot of people winning in this.
12:54
I mean, some of the headlines sound horrible, like we should
12:58
all just pack up our stuff and go home, you know, But the word
13:02
on the street is, is much different.
13:04
I mean, if you're, if you're bringing great beer, a well
13:08
thought out atmosphere, well trained staff, you know, some
13:11
events, some interesting food, like that's a recipe for
13:15
success. You know, we see it time and
13:17
again. I mean, there's, there's
13:18
definitely people kicking cans out there that are not, you
13:22
know, for whatever reason are not able to succeed.
13:25
But there's plenty of other success stories yet.
13:29
You know, I actually wanted to start a podcast this year that
13:33
was just sharing those success stories because I was so tired
13:36
of hearing, you know, the if it bleeds, it leads kind of A to
13:41
beer media and, you know, just time got away from us and but I
13:48
definitely think it's a story that needs to be told.
13:49
There is a success. There's tons of success stories
13:52
throughout the Southeast and throughout the larger crappier
13:55
market. So we're here for it.
13:58
I mean, we're one of 70 craft malt houses around the nation
14:01
that are, you know, ready to support a variety of lager
14:05
styles that are leaning into malt and barley varieties that
14:10
grow in a much more regional approach.
14:12
I mean, we again, are we at Wine Terroir?
14:15
No, we're not there yet. Right.
14:18
So many beer journalists. I talked to her, like, please
14:21
tell me we're ready with it. You can tell the difference
14:23
between, you know, the same batch of barley grown in one
14:26
field to the other. And I'm like, no, I can't, I'm
14:30
sorry. But yeah, I can tell you the
14:32
difference in the barley varieties.
14:33
And you're right in the malt house, but that's it, you know?
14:37
But that's enough. I mean, if we can tell the
14:39
difference in the same German style lager made it from a
14:43
Southeastern brewery to a northeastern brewery, then
14:46
that's interesting. I mean, that's a cool story to
14:49
tell. Well, and the other thing is
14:50
Scott mentioned a few minutes ago about East Nashville Beer
14:54
Works and we did a podcast with them recently with their owner,
14:58
Anthony Davis. And one of the things we brought
15:00
up was, you know, they're seeing it.
15:03
I mean, they know that Michelob Ultra is now the, you know, the
15:06
best selling beer in America, right?
15:09
But they have, they're making other like East natural beer
15:13
works, for example. They're making other beers that
15:16
are almost similar to that. But thank God, you know, they're
15:19
better. And I think Scott could say the
15:21
same thing. I mean, he goes out and drinks
15:23
beer. I go out and drink beer.
15:25
Sometimes we go out and drink better, you know, drink beer
15:28
together and we see it and we're like, oh man, did you taste that
15:32
lager, Scott? Did you get that lager?
15:33
Did you get that filter you know?
15:35
The light lager, like you just said, like he's an actual one,
15:37
like it's a light lager too. Like this is actually like
15:40
National Brewing has a really good light lager.
15:42
They want to. I think they want a gold medal
15:43
of medal at GABF a year. Or two, he isn't not just
15:48
watered down. That that is the trick you know
15:53
and and that's a skill unto itself.
15:55
I mean, you know will we see you know the the British mild come
16:00
in and and fill a similar space. I don't know.
16:03
Probably not because it's a little people are just scared of
16:07
dark beer still and so but yes, I think there's a a lot of
16:12
ground to be covered. You know, I think the only thing
16:16
that's challenging for craft breweries on the light lager
16:20
front as the price point issue, you know, if you sit down and
16:24
they charge you 7 bucks a pint, that's a tough, that's a tough
16:28
sell, you know? When the guys used to try buying
16:31
a 24 pack for 9 bucks. Right, exactly.
16:34
You know, so I, I think that piece is still to be determined.
16:39
I, I think it's, you know, like Bart Watson from the BA said,
16:43
you know, it's like the, the $7.00 a pint price point is a
16:47
tipping point for the consumer. And I think that's most acute at
16:52
that 4% light lager style because, because everyone
16:58
immediately says I can buy X amount of X beer.
17:02
I mean, you know, of course, Banquet or whatever, you know,
17:05
you immediately go to that comparison and and I think
17:10
that's, that's kind of a dangerous play for for a craft
17:13
Brewer to to get into. You know, I, I'd want to make
17:16
sure the rest of my port, I'd probably air of reducing that
17:22
beer's price and add a quarter to everything else on the top
17:26
wall and people recognize that. Yeah.
17:30
OK. Well they, they did debit that
17:32
down based on the ABV and OK, that feels right, you know.
17:38
Good point. Yeah, it's an excellent point.
17:39
I hadn't heard that or thought about that before.
17:41
That actually is actually perfect.
17:43
Yeah. Yeah, like that could be your
17:44
loss leader. Exactly.
17:47
You know, what we always think about it is, you know, what's
17:49
the price point that's going to stop you from that third beer?
17:53
Is it 7 bucks? Is it 750 you, you know, like
17:57
what's going to stop you from hanging out?
17:59
And and that's the and that's what every crap we're should
18:02
think about when they plan their menu out is like, is this per is
18:07
this guy or gal done at 2 beers? Because now they have they spent
18:11
20 bucks after the tip, you know, so and because then we get
18:15
into whole volumetric, you know, issues of like, you know, if I
18:19
sell 3 beers at $6 versus 2 at 7:50, did I win?
18:24
I don't know. And that's going to be different
18:27
for every brewhouse in every tap room environment.
18:29
Now we. On your website.
18:31
Off top. It's all connected, all
18:35
connected. It's all we care about.
18:37
On your website, you've got some partners listed, industry
18:40
partners in university partnerships.
18:43
I love this because we've had and, and they're actually on
18:46
this list. Appalachian State University
18:48
Fermentation science program has been on this podcast.
18:51
Doctor Topper Toppman's been on here and they are one of your
18:54
partners. Talk about them specifically and
18:57
or the universities in general. What is that partnership like?
19:00
And is it really just kind of is same kind of thing that you're
19:03
doing with with Brewers or is it a little bit different because
19:06
they're universities? It takes a lot of different
19:08
forms. So like typically, you know,
19:11
it's about putting a little bit more of a face and a name and an
19:16
experience around malt. You know, if you're, if you're a
19:19
student in a brewing class or program, you know, and I always
19:23
kind of pick on it because malt kind of gets short shrift.
19:26
You know, it's like, Oh yeah, malt, here we go.
19:28
It's two days out of your whole curriculum, you know, and it's
19:31
like, but if they actually, if the students visit the malt
19:35
house, they go through the different steps of the process
19:39
in real time, taste the grain at each step, see it, you know,
19:42
then do the hot steep with me and all of that.
19:45
It's like it's a deeper imprint in terms of like what the role
19:50
that malt plays in recipe development, you know, because
19:54
inevitably that like a classroom ASU will will come visit, do the
19:59
tour and then I will send them home with different products
20:02
and. They're, you know, next brew day
20:05
is a mix of recipes from all of our products and everyone's
20:09
like, holy crap, you, you know, I've home brewed before, but you
20:13
know, I'm getting this different note from, you know, Riverbends
20:18
dark Munich versus Wireman's or, you know, this pilsner
20:22
absolutely outshine something from the big boys here in North
20:26
America and light bulbs go off, you know, and so I think that's
20:31
where we really like that that academic connection is that it's
20:35
the old adage home Brewers become pro Brewers, right.
20:38
So we're we're catching them in that development stage.
20:41
And then sort of from a true academic standpoint, you know,
20:45
we have some really interesting partnerships with folks like the
20:49
University of Kentucky where we're actually test molting
20:53
material that they've grown under different growing
20:56
conditions to see, is there terroir?
21:00
Does that difference in fertility management actually
21:04
translate into different specs? Or, you know, a better barley, a
21:10
higher test weight, a better performing malt?
21:12
You know, so it, it really runs the gamut from early
21:16
intervention, let's call it, with an aspiring Brewer, to a
21:20
seasoned academic with a PhD who has a totally different set of
21:24
goals. That's so cool.
21:25
Like thinking back on that episode, I don't know, I just, I
21:28
just feel like I don't know, just putting it all together,
21:31
right. If I, if I was early in my
21:33
fermentation career, if I'm at the University of App State or
21:36
wherever App State University, I would want to know about these
21:38
things. It might be one of those things
21:39
you don't think about on the front end or like, oh, I can
21:42
take this with me in my career later on.
21:44
You know what I mean? Like.
21:45
Well, and it, you know, typically most of these students
21:48
are younger, right? And so they're, they have a
21:52
broader suite of concerns. It's not just like, hey, teach
21:55
me how to make beer. That's cool.
21:57
But yeah, hey, well, I also have some environmental things that
22:01
I'd I'd like to uphold. And, well, so this checks that
22:05
box too. You know, this malt was, was
22:08
made with barley that's grown 100 miles away instead of, you
22:13
know, 3000. So that's a win.
22:16
And so we can, we kind of have that, that stage, if you will,
22:20
to sort of talk about all the things that make local malt
22:24
valuable. It it's not just the flavor and
22:27
freshness, but we've got some environmental benefits, we've
22:29
got some local economy benefits, a whole host of things that can
22:34
kind of resonate with a lot of different consumers.
22:36
See, I would think in that instance, again, as a student
22:39
going into any of those programs, my thought would
22:42
probably, hey, I'm going to go in, I'm going to be a Brewer,
22:44
right? I want to brew beers.
22:45
And then you realize there's other aspects like Steve, Steve,
22:48
Steven Moxley, I think went on to like a yeast company.
22:51
All these other avenues you might not even have thought
22:53
about as far as a career goes later on.
22:55
You know, when you graduate four years later.
22:56
Yeah, sure. And malt being one of them.
22:59
Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, you know, early on we
23:02
had a lot of environmental science majors and agroecology
23:06
type folks coming through to work at the Malt House because
23:10
again, we, we represented that perfect intersection of, you
23:14
know, something that had massive heel, but also had an
23:19
environmental ethos behind it. And that that really resonates
23:23
with the younger generation. I mean, I'm full Gray hair now
23:26
and almost 50s. I wouldn't say I'm part of that
23:29
generation anymore. But you know, still, that's
23:32
really one of the tenants that Brian and I laid out is, you
23:35
know, when we looked at companies like New Belgium and
23:38
Patagonia, like we wanted a company that had that sort of
23:42
durable environmental ethos behind it.
23:44
And we've been able to stick to it.
23:46
And I'm but we're pretty proud of that.
23:48
Will you, will you continue on that pace in and talk about
23:50
sustainability? You guys have a big section on
23:52
your website that we keep referring to because it's so
23:54
awesome. Yeah, yeah.
23:56
By the way. And there's a whole, I know
23:57
there's a million angles of sustainability, but please talk
24:00
about kind of your, your, your, your angle.
24:03
Yeah, sure. So, so first and foremost, just
24:06
to kind of frame things up, malt is a global commodity.
24:10
Malt is primarily produced in Western, US, Western and Central
24:14
Canada, Western Europe, Australia.
24:17
And so it's a global commodity. It literally moves all over the
24:21
planet with trains, planes, automobiles, boats, you name it
24:24
it, it moves around the southeast was typically not seen
24:28
as a barley growing region, still isn't.
24:30
If you look at the USDA's barley production maps, we're not on
24:34
it. We're a rounding error.
24:36
We're we're dust compared to the the bigger producers.
24:40
And so we're in Nashville. The closest major malt house to
24:43
where we are is Chilton, WI. That's Breeze.
24:45
Breeze spots their barley from the Big Horn Valley in Wyoming,
24:49
which grows exquisite barley. No, no shade in that at all.
24:53
But the trip from the farm to the fermenter is a couple 1000
24:57
miles. As I said, we're at Max 4 to
25:01
500. Most of our stuff is coming from
25:03
300 or less. So from a strictly food mile
25:08
perspective, we've got a win there.
25:10
And obviously the people over in Europe have thousands of 8000
25:14
miles I think is the distance from wireman to Asheville.
25:17
So we've got some basic food mile stuff there that that is a
25:22
win. More recently, we started as a
25:26
organic and Mother Nature quickly showed us that that was
25:30
too aggressive and that we needed to step back and stay
25:33
conventional to just get a decent crop of barley in the
25:36
door. But one of the most exciting
25:38
things that we've been able to to jump back into is
25:42
regenerative agriculture. So we're the first regenified
25:46
certified malt house on the planet.
25:49
And what that basically means is we are able to preserve that
25:55
transparency and traceability of a given lot of barley from a
25:59
regenerative farm all the way through to the brewery.
26:02
So back to our friends at Full Steam in Durham, they're the
26:06
first certified brewery. So we're now closing that loop
26:10
from a regenerate, regenerate fied certified farm in Maryland.
26:15
Their barley comes to us in Asheville and then the malt goes
26:18
to Durham to make beer. So regenerative agriculture
26:21
includes things like no till farming, which reduces erosion.
26:25
We've got cover cropping which also reduces erosion but also
26:29
preserves nutrients and carbon in the soil.
26:32
All these different things improve the soil health and
26:35
actually build structure within the soil that retains carbon.
26:40
And so, and Regenified is really, really special in the
26:44
sense that they visit their farms every year and do an
26:48
entire battery of tests that actually documents the carbon
26:52
sequestration that takes place in these farms.
26:55
It documents the increase in biological activity in the soil
26:59
and the surrounding areas. All these beautiful things are
27:02
happening. So we're really proud of that
27:04
Regenified certification as a way of sort of staying ahead of
27:09
a lot of the the marketing and what we consider greenwashing
27:13
around agriculture by documenting farms that that take
27:18
these practices to heart. We're seeing environmental
27:21
benefits and seeing seeing Brewers and distillers get
27:26
excited about this and really fold this into their marketing
27:30
efforts and and environmental management plans as well.
27:34
Amazing. And I know, I know we're running
27:36
long and we, we want to, we want to let you go.
27:38
You're good, You're good, A. Million other.
27:40
You're doing good. OK, I got a couple.
27:42
I won't keep you forever. I got a couple others.
27:44
Go for it. Quality.
27:48
How do you guys maintain quality?
27:50
You've got to have, because you got it, you kind of have it
27:52
twofold, right? You have to have quality coming
27:55
in. You touched on a little bit
27:56
earlier and your product has to go out.
27:58
Your quality has to be there on the product going out too.
28:00
So how do you maintain that? It's got to be a lot.
28:03
It's got to be a big part of the day, if you will.
28:05
And and not only that, let me because I want to follow up on
28:10
that too, Scott, because I was thinking about this earlier, how
28:13
the quality has changed with technology over the years since
28:16
you started, right? Yeah, yeah.
28:18
So, yeah, several things. Let me let me see.
28:21
So first and foremost, I mentioned it earlier, a
28:23
certificate of analysis AC of A. So each batch that's produced
28:28
goes up to Hartwick College in New York State.
28:31
Their Craft Beverage Institute does a full battery of tests on
28:35
that. So we get everything from
28:38
protein to enzyme package to extract all of that full battery
28:43
of tests done there in house. We're able to do fry ability,
28:47
moisture, color, flavor. And so that's kind of me and and
28:51
the lab team doing some of that basic QA QC up front.
28:56
What we can do in the lab is typically enough to give it a
28:59
thumbs up, thumbs down to go to market.
29:02
If we have concerns about a given batch, we can sort of shit
29:06
off to the side, put it in the sort of a holding pattern until
29:10
we get lab data. And then that's really be kind
29:12
of the the final, you know, is this OK to release?
29:15
Is this true to brand? Go forth and conquer.
29:18
Here we go. So yeah, so that that's a big
29:21
piece of it. There is really a lot of
29:23
testing. The front end testing, like we
29:25
talked about earlier is is really crucial.
29:27
You know, we don't let bad barley in the building.
29:30
So that that helps us sort of put a floor under a lot of what
29:34
we're trying to accomplish. And then that's, I mean, it's,
29:38
it's really just, I mean, some of its basic, it's just Good
29:42
Housekeeping, you know, keeping a clean malt house keeps the
29:45
bugs at Bay. You know, if there's nothing for
29:47
them to eat on the floor, they don't proliferate, you know, and
29:51
so it's really a team effort. You know, everybody kind of eyes
29:54
on the prize every day. You know, we, we have an adage
29:58
that that's completely worn out. But if it, it, it's just simple.
30:01
It's see something, say something, you know, like, yeah,
30:05
it can be a, a torn bag in the racks.
30:08
It can be a, a temperature range that, that's out of spec when
30:12
we're in germination. It can be a funky smell and
30:16
coming out of a, a germinating batch, you, you know, it's,
30:19
it's, it's our team really that that's driving there.
30:22
I mean, everyone's got their eyes and ears and nose open at
30:26
all times. Any one of those things you just
30:28
mentioned could be a small thing right?
30:30
Just in passing but the small detail but it could be affect
30:33
the final product. Exactly, You know, I mean too
30:37
much dust is a perfect place for bugs to hang out and build a new
30:41
family and then their family builds a family and and you.
30:45
Know what, and not that you have to give any any, you know, any
30:49
examples, but I would, I would imagine like anything else, you
30:54
know, you've had to learn the hard way a few times over the
30:57
years, right? Oh.
30:57
Yeah, no, I, I, I, we call it the Halo.
31:01
And basically, if a, if a super sack bag has a bug infestation
31:06
and they're really crunching on that material, the dust will
31:10
come out of that bag in form a Halo around the palette.
31:14
And that palette is immediately going out the door into the
31:17
trash can. So, yeah, so just little things
31:20
like that looking for, you know, it's just basic hygiene and it's
31:26
it's just knowing what the correct portfolio of smells
31:30
should be like in the mall down. Yeah, or lack of them, right, if
31:33
you. Don't smell something,
31:36
something's wrong. Something's wrong you guys and
31:39
tell me plowed a pint Pilsner, Yes, it's something you guys
31:42
develop with full Steam Brewery. Is that kind of a private label
31:46
beer for you guys? What is that exactly?
31:49
So plow to pie is kind of full Steam's ethos that that we sort
31:53
of play into really nicely. You know, we've worked on a ton
31:57
of projects over the years with with full steam really, you
32:01
know, they love the fact that we're able to tie individual
32:05
lots of barley back to a a given or malt back to a given farm.
32:10
And so whether it's Pilsner or whether it's, you know, with
32:14
this regenified stuff, they've released an ESB, they've
32:18
released an Oktoberfest. And then we're let's see, we
32:22
did, we're doing for North Carolina crap Brewers
32:25
conference. We're doing a Belgian pale that
32:27
I'm really excited about. But again, it it it's a it's
32:31
about having that two way St. of dialogue between Molster and
32:35
Brewer where we're able to get these sort of custom built
32:38
projects put together. And that's just not something
32:41
big malt houses can do. You know, it's just sort of
32:44
like, here's our catalog. This is our this is what we got
32:48
pick from the menu. But you know, there's no
32:50
opportunity to say, well, I'd really love to have a lot.
32:54
That's just Farmer John stuff from this year, you know, and
32:58
I'm like, all right, well, give me a couple of weeks and let me
33:00
make a floor batch and and we'll, we'll do that.
33:04
You know, what's your target? SRM on color.
33:06
OK, cool. We'll we'll, you know, we'll add
33:09
some heat to the curing step and we'll make you what you want,
33:12
you know, and those types of projects just just satisfying
33:16
for all involved, you know, in the finished beer, especially if
33:18
it wins a medal or something like that.
33:20
Like sure feels good. Yeah.
33:22
There's a maybe it's part of the tour.
33:24
I saw something somewhere along the way about sensory training
33:27
and if it was sensory training for staff or was it sensory
33:29
training for like people taking tours or is that two different
33:32
things or is it the same thing? All of the above.
33:34
So that's the hot steak method. OK, so this was something
33:39
developed probably 7 or 8 years ago.
33:42
A lady named Lindsay Barr, who used to be with New Belgium and
33:46
has now launched a company called draft Lab has really been
33:48
at the the bleeding edge of this.
33:52
Basically what draft Lab is is it it sort of bolts the so a hot
33:56
steep is basically the way I said the same concentration of
34:00
malt tea that a Brewer would create in a brew house.
34:02
But the trick with draft Lab is it's a gives you a true to brand
34:07
sort of analysis step of questionnaire to go through.
34:11
You know, for example, if it was that that Southern select I was
34:14
talking about earlier, the our British Pale Ale Mall, it's like
34:17
it's going to ask you, is it in this color range?
34:20
OK, cool. Am I picking up bready biscuit
34:23
notes? OK, excellent.
34:25
Am I getting a little bit of like fruit?
34:28
Am I getting a little bit of toast?
34:29
OK, cool. It's going to walk me through
34:32
all of those sensory sort of check boxes to arrive at the
34:37
ultimate question. Is this true to brand?
34:39
And so we use that in house for your QA QC.
34:43
We use it in sales as a way of saying, you know, here's our
34:47
pilsner mall up against, you know, XYZ malt houses Pilsner
34:51
mall. The how do you feel about ours?
34:53
You know, is it different better?
34:55
Do you not care? All right, But really to answer
34:59
your question, though, with training, the most effective
35:01
thing that we found with like bartenders is helping them
35:05
connect dots is saying here's what Riverbend did, here's the
35:09
farmer, here's how we made this malt.
35:12
This, you know, pale malt is in this style beer that you're
35:16
pouring. Here's the connection side by
35:19
side. Do you pick it up?
35:20
You know, like and that's when the light bulb goes off and
35:23
they're like, wow, OK, now I understand what malt does.
35:27
You know, it's not just the sugar source, but it's, it's,
35:31
it's giving all these other nuances to the beer along with
35:34
the yeast and hops, of course. It's like it really helps drive
35:37
home the role that malt plays. I always say, I always give this
35:41
analogy. So it's like if, if beer, if
35:44
beer ingredients were the Led Led Zeppelin crew, right?
35:49
So malt is John Bonham in the background just banging on the
35:53
drums, doing a cold job, holding things down.
35:56
He's not always the one you talk about.
35:58
When people talk about Led Zeppelin, they talk about Robert
36:01
Plant with his shirt off. And that's hops, right?
36:04
You know, that's Robert Plant and he gets all the the the show
36:08
stopping groupies and all all the headlines being the hops.
36:11
But without John Bonham, Led Zeppelin doesn't exist.
36:15
So, you know, so that's kind of the storyline I like to tell
36:19
when it comes to where malt fits into the craft beer spectrum.
36:23
Who is Jimmy Page in that analogy?
36:25
Yeah, so. Maybe, maybe if Robert Plant is
36:28
the sexy dry hop, Jimmy Page is like the still the sexy
36:33
bitterness hop that's playing right behind.
36:38
That's great. John Paul Jones is who.
36:41
John Paul Jones would would be maybe he's the yeast.
36:44
So still very important, still still laying down a crucial part
36:49
of the rhythm section. Right.
36:50
What's that the the saying? The sum of the parts?
36:53
Yes. Whatever that is right the the
36:55
the sum is greater than the its parts.
36:57
The individual parts exactly, but I do love the John Bottom
37:00
analogy. It keeps everything together,
37:01
keeps every time and the whole thing.
37:02
Right, right. The soul of beer.
37:04
But I got a million more I got to let we got to let you go here
37:07
soon. But one, one other thing that
37:09
talk about your team, just your team in general, like like you,
37:12
you talked about you, you're able to do different things now
37:15
or they want to allow you to do other things.
37:18
But but talk about your team like you've got to have a a, a
37:21
wonderful team as a whole. Yeah.
37:23
And not only that and only that, let me also expand on that
37:26
question. How has your team grown from
37:29
when you first started to now? Oh, geez, yeah.
37:32
So when, when we started our, our first employee came in and
37:36
we're just like, we don't really have a job for you other than to
37:39
just help us lift things. And, and it was like, cool, I'm
37:43
in this sounds great. And I'm like, all right, come
37:46
on, show up at 8:30 tomorrow morning.
37:48
So you know, it started from just Brian and I now we're like
37:51
16 or 17 folks strong covering the Southeast in sales.
37:57
We have somebody at the Malt House 10 hours a day, seven days
38:01
a week. Our production crew is great,
38:05
you know, like everybody else. It was hell going through the
38:08
pandemic and then the Great Resignation after that.
38:11
But thankfully things have settled in.
38:14
We've got a beautiful group of folks that come in and and just
38:19
work their butts off every day for us.
38:21
You know, it's a lot of the same stuff.
38:24
But again, there's just enough nuance that if you fall asleep
38:28
and get complacent, something's going to go completely off the
38:31
rail. So thankfully, like everyone has
38:34
been with us long enough to watch things go off the rails
38:38
and they all are dialed now. So it's great.
38:41
Yeah. It's, you know, when we first
38:44
got started with these GV's, you know, think about it like like
38:47
train cars lined up, you know, so it's like we steep one batch,
38:51
push it into batch 2, steep the next one, push it into batch 3
38:55
and so on and so forth. If something screws up in one of
38:58
those, they all just mash together and then you have
39:02
100,000 lbs of train wreck on your hands, you know, And again,
39:07
we were talking about Helene earlier, Speaking of 100,000 LB
39:10
train wrecks, when the power went out and the water went out,
39:13
That's exactly what we had in Helene.
39:15
And I can't say enough about our crew.
39:18
I mean, they showed up the next day.
39:21
I don't even know how some of them got there.
39:23
One guy showed up too early, actually, and then trees fell
39:28
down and he couldn't get back to his house.
39:31
And so it was just amazing to watch everybody come together.
39:35
I mean, we cook communal meals together for a week and 1/2 as
39:39
power was coming back on and the city was getting its legs back
39:44
under it. And it was fantastic.
39:46
I mean, I'll never forget. I showed up.
39:49
One of our guys, Moses, he was standing guard over the malt
39:53
house. And I was like, how long have
39:54
you been here, Moses? And he was like, all day.
39:57
And I'm like, wow, thanks, bud. That was way above the Call of
40:01
Duty, you know? Yeah.
40:03
I don't know if you've heard the National Guard helicopters are
40:06
overhead, like I think we're OK, you know, but it was that kind
40:11
of dedication that just showed up over and over again after
40:14
Helene. So I.
40:15
Yeah. And obviously you're you're
40:17
referencing Hurricane Helene that happened, you know, in
40:20
Asheville. I mean, it devastated a lot of
40:23
Asheville a year ago. I mean, when you think, when you
40:26
look back now almost a year later, I mean are you all still
40:30
impacted at all by that in the local community?
40:33
You know, we come back strong. A couple of our customers, their
40:36
facilities were just truly wiped off the map.
40:38
So they're, they're not back. But as a, as a town, I mean, I,
40:43
I think we've snapped back pretty well.
40:45
We're a resilient group. I'm still hearing that, you
40:49
know, tourism numbers are down double digits from where they
40:53
were last summer, which, which isn't awesome, but we're having
40:58
a great leaf season. I mean, I'm, I'm almost, it
41:01
sounds silly, but I'm thankful to be stuck in traffic some
41:04
days. You know, I know that means
41:06
people are visiting us and they're excited to to, you know,
41:10
see the foliage and hike in the woods and then come back and
41:13
drink and eat in our breweries and restaurants.
41:16
And, and I think that's definitely, you know, a
41:18
beautiful thing. I mean, that's Asheville's been
41:20
a tourism town for well over 100 years now.
41:23
Yeah. If that's not happening, then
41:25
something's wrong. It feels off.
41:28
You know, so we're people are coming back.
41:30
Kudos to everybody in the community for rallying around
41:34
and rebuilding and getting restarted.
41:36
I was just meeting with the guys from Silicola earlier today and,
41:40
you know, their story is just really just one of grit.
41:43
I mean, they just went back at it before they even before
41:47
anyone knew if they could rebuild, they just started
41:49
rebuilding and said we're going to do this.
41:52
You know, and I think that's emblematic of a lot of folks
41:55
around town that we're just, we're just going to go do this
41:58
and rebuild and and remain the really amazing place that we've
42:03
always been. It is my favorite beer city.
42:06
It is for so many reasons. The beer is fantastic.
42:09
The ability to walk from one to another and so many is such a
42:13
huge factor to. It's a great town, Steve, we're
42:15
going to get you there. Absolutely.
42:17
It's a wonderful. It's a good spot, you know, the,
42:20
the people are wonderful and it's, you know, anytime you can
42:25
have an Asheville day where you get up and go hiking or biking
42:30
and, or fishing and then come back and, you know, have a beer
42:34
at, you know, somewhere in the river arts around 3:00 or 4:00,
42:37
a great meal. And then go see some live
42:39
bluegrass. Like, I think that's just as
42:41
good as it gets, you know? It is.
42:43
I love it. I love it.
42:44
I'm going to I'm going to end on this.
42:46
So Steve might have some more, but tell us something about
42:48
malt. I've said that three times that
42:50
night. Tell us something about malt we
42:52
may not have known if we haven't covered it already.
42:55
What can I say? New barley's varieties take over
42:59
a decade to create. Wow.
43:01
So I mentioned Avalon, I think from Virginia Tech.
43:06
That variety began life at a roundtable discussion in 2013.
43:12
Thousand and 14 and we did not have commercial quantities of it
43:17
until 2023. It was worth the wait.
43:20
It's an awesome variety, but ten years?
43:23
What as a, as a, as a follow up to that real quick, yeah.
43:26
What what causes that? Is it just red tape?
43:29
Is it just kind of developing it?
43:30
It's Mother Nature, so we don't, yeah, yeah, yeah.
43:32
We don't use GMO techniques. So it's old school genetic
43:37
crosses and then they basically select the strongest offspring
43:43
over the course of several crop years.
43:46
And the great thing about Avalon is during that 10 year trial, it
43:51
went through hot years, dry years, wet years, all it it got
43:56
all the stressors put on it. And so the the variety that made
44:01
it to the finish line from that type of brutal trial is tough
44:05
and the flavor profile is great. So it works for maltsters,
44:10
Brewers and farmers. So at the end of the day, after
44:12
the 10 or the end of after the decade, you've got a good
44:15
problem. We've got something good and
44:17
we've got lots of his brothers and sisters waiting in the wings
44:20
to be the next thing. So we've basically created a new
44:24
genetic pool of Southeastern grown malting barley varieties
44:29
to work with for the foreseeable future.
44:31
Well, Brent and Steve, you may have something.
44:33
Britt, you've taught us so much. I'm telling I've got 100 more
44:35
questions. We'll have you back on if if
44:37
you'll come back on with the same point.
44:38
This was fantastic. You were absolutely fantastic
44:42
and we I'm blown away like I have goosebumps just from what
44:44
we've learned today. I it's.
44:45
Awesome. My work here is done then.
44:49
Yeah, yeah. You'd be proud if.
44:52
Only my wife said that after spending an hour and a half with
44:55
me. Oh, there.
44:55
You go, we see what you did there, we see what you did
44:58
there. Now you know what, you know
44:59
what, Scott? I have questions, but as you
45:02
said, we're going to save them for the next time.
45:04
I'm going to go back on their website at riverbend.com because
45:08
there is so much on that website to check out, so much
45:11
information. I would just tell people go
45:13
there. If you want to learn more, if
45:15
you haven't heard enough on this podcast, go there and you will
45:19
hear and see a lot more from you guys.
45:22
That is Brett Manning, he is the Co founder of them and we
45:26
certainly appreciate it man. Thank you for coming today.
45:29
Appreciate. You on the Brewery Underground
45:30
podcast. And spending so much time and
45:32
sharing so much knowledge with. Us.
45:34
Absolutely. My pleasure.
45:36
From Nashville, we say cheers to you, Sir.
45:37
Cheers. Cheers.
45:38
Thank you guys. Cheers.
45:40
Thank you. Serious thanks, Brent.