Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / I Don’t Talk to Robots: Humanizing AI with Amanda Otero

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I Don’t Talk to Robots: Humanizing AI with Amanda Otero · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:00
Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
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podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
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Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
0:25
and let's integrate this. Welcome to the Integrate
0:40
This podcast. I'm Jeremy Mickla and I'm joined
0:43
as always by David Berner. And we're really excited
0:46
to bring with a special guest on our show again
0:50
today. Her name is Amanda Otero. Amanda is a
0:55
digital resource teacher in Minnesota. I'll let
0:59
her, I know it's a combination of several different
1:03
city names. I don't want to miss one, so I won't
1:06
say. exactly what they all are, but she's also
1:09
one of the leaders of a group that formed about
1:13
a year ago, year and a half ago in Minnesota
1:16
called the Minnesota Generative AI Alliance,
1:19
and Amanda is one of the leads that is part of
1:22
that group as well. And so let's just kind of
1:25
kick it off here, Amanda. Why don't you tell
1:26
us a little bit kind of your background, your
1:29
origin story, as it were, when it comes to getting
1:33
to where you are in this world of education technology.
1:37
Yeah, don't we all have an interesting story
1:39
to get there? Well, thank you very much for having
1:41
me on. And it's really great that this is a podcast
1:46
that exists for this exact kind of thing and
1:49
for us to discuss. all these kinds of important
1:52
issues. Well, I'm Amanda Otero and I have always
1:56
wanted to be a teacher. I knew what I wanted
2:02
to do, so I was ready to do it. And the EdTech
2:05
piece really kind of came in as I was searching
2:07
for like, but how do I do the best things for
2:09
my students? Because what was there was just
2:12
wasn't feeling like... enough. So I'd say like
2:16
my foundation is really built in the Michael
2:18
Fullen quote of pedagogy is the driver and technology
2:21
is the accelerator. So my background is in elementary
2:25
education. I taught second, fourth, fifth and
2:27
sixth in urban charter and suburban school districts.
2:31
I really took my first steps into ed tech because
2:34
in the classroom I was trying to investigate
2:36
how to bring the four C's communication, collaboration,
2:40
creativity, critical thinking into the space
2:42
for my for my students and so we were doing things
2:45
like setting up classroom committees or genius
2:48
hour and those kinds of things and so I started
2:53
to get ready to go into a master's program and
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I did a lot of research because it was really
2:59
thinking I read a lot, I do a lot of things,
3:03
and I didn't want to end up in a program where
3:05
I just felt like I wasn't really going to learn
3:07
or gain something. So I spent a lot of time investigating
3:10
and I decided on the learning design and technology
3:13
program at St. Mary's University of Minnesota.
3:16
And this was a really great experience because
3:17
it did both confirm and enhance the purpose and
3:21
place of technology and education. And really
3:23
because it was based on that learning design
3:25
element that it was about student and human centered
3:28
design. And I've continued on since then. I have
3:31
my Ed specialist and a K -12 principal license
3:34
from Concordia, St. Paul. And so professionally,
3:38
I moved out of the classroom about three years
3:40
ago. This is my third year out of the classroom.
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And I'm in this digital resource TOSA role in
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Independent District School District 196, Rosemont,
3:49
Apple Valley, Eagan. So we're like the third
3:51
largest school district in the state. Yeah, we
3:55
have a lot going on. We just opened our 20th
3:58
elementary school. And so, yeah, there's a team
4:01
of three of us who are supporting elementary
4:05
buildings. And we each have seven of the 20 elementary
4:10
schools, but also collaborate on some administrative
4:13
and resource gathering tasks for the district,
4:15
too. So as part of this other work that I do
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as part of my role, I was dabbling with some
4:24
AI things and was asked to be a part of our district
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AI guidance committee. And one of the first steps
4:29
that our district AI guidance committee took
4:32
was that we were invited to the first Mangaia
4:34
subject, but kind of before Mangaia was Mangaia.
4:37
So I went and it was like the perfect culmination
4:41
of like my experience and where our goals were
4:46
at and the things I thought and felt and so there
4:49
was an invitation at the end if you wanted to
4:52
join and learn more and I took it and I've taken
4:54
just every opportunity and invitation since then
4:57
to continue collaborating with this fantastic
5:00
alliance of people and now Mangaia is actively
5:04
forming a non -profit to really enhance this
5:07
cross -sector collaboration with this human -centered
5:11
focus so that we can help support and align all
5:15
the things like you don't want to be in competition
5:17
with all the other great work happening across
5:19
Minnesota but really to support and align and
5:23
create more collaboration between all the great
5:25
work like like that your two organizations also
5:29
are doing across Minnesota. And so this core
5:32
group had because we're work for me a non -profit
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we were given titles and we're all FCOs so it's
5:39
Fierce Collaboration Officers. So that's a really
5:42
fun title that aptly sums up like who we are
5:45
and where we're trying to go with things. Yeah,
5:48
yeah, that sounds like you kind of just like.
5:50
beginning when you were in the classroom and
5:53
you were always kind of on the edge of the innovation
5:55
and pushing that forward, that you just continue
5:58
to do that in the role that you have today. And
6:01
then just really thankful for the things that
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you do for not just the students and the staff
6:06
of the schools that you are part of ISD 196,
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but also like to greater and rest of the parts
6:14
of Minnesota as well. And that's where I kind
6:17
of like, you know, you know, especially when
6:20
we talk to go to that innovation point, you know,
6:24
artificial intelligence, of course, is the innovation
6:26
that really most people in education technology
6:30
are. are coming back to over and over again.
6:34
And, you know, I had the opportunity to attend
6:37
a session that you presented at a conference
6:39
not too long ago that you called dueling AIs,
6:43
which I thought was just this really clever play
6:46
on artificial intelligence, along with kind of
6:51
like when I talk to teachers is always the elephant
6:53
in the room. And it has to do with cheating.
6:57
And so your other AI is maybe I'll let you fill
7:00
that in. Not to steal all of your thunder here,
7:05
but how did you come up with this concept of
7:08
this dueling AIs? What does that mean? Where
7:13
did that come from? Okay, so the title of the
7:20
session is Julian AI's Academic Integrity and
7:24
Artificial Intelligence. And the basis of it
7:27
really came because I wanted to enter in this
7:31
conversation with others because I felt this
7:33
tension. Like I felt this tension happening in
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our AI guidance committee and I wanted to create
7:38
a space and a place for this conversation to
7:41
keep happening. I don't feel like I have answers.
7:45
I don't know that we're going to go to a session
7:46
and come out with answers. But just being able
7:50
to name it, I think, is the opportunities that
7:53
we need to take so that we are moving in that
7:55
direction and starting to think about what is
7:58
possible with AI and artificial intelligence.
8:03
So the title really kind of comes from The idea
8:06
of like both can exist together because some
8:08
of the tension feels like you can have one or
8:11
the other but you can't have both So it's not
8:13
like it's not like two people with guns pacing
8:16
out the opposite way and they turn in the fire
8:18
at each other, right? Maybe that's just a little
8:22
bit of a misconception. But really the possibilities
8:24
of the two working together, right? Right, like
8:28
is that possible? And so I think like in our
8:33
own AI guidance committee, we were having this
8:35
conversation. We entered into like our AI guidance
8:38
work and quickly as a team collaborated on our
8:41
overall guidance, like really quickly and easily.
8:44
And as we started to come to those like, so what's
8:45
the next step? And then it was like, well, we
8:48
need to look at some pieces for how AI is being
8:51
used, because it's already being used, and we
8:53
need to do something more to address that. So
8:56
in our guidance, we named academic integrity,
8:59
we outlined that as a core element. And we named
9:01
it as we foster human intelligence and creativity
9:05
while preparing students to flourish in an AI
9:08
integrated world. Maintaining high standards,
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we use AI as a supplement to not a substitute
9:14
for our own intellectual effort, never replacing
9:17
human judgment. And so I think like we were all
9:20
like, yeah, that's a great definition. That's
9:22
exactly what we mean. And as we worked into this
9:25
work for coming up with the usage guidelines,
9:28
it just quickly felt like that piece of it didn't
9:33
feel like it was being maintained and how we
9:35
wanted to use AI. We wanted to use it in a, the
9:40
conversation really kind of started with the
9:42
stoplight model, like yes, kind of sort of maybe
9:45
caution or no. And it was like all in or all
9:49
out kind of a thing. you know, there were just
9:52
concerns like if this is what we mean by academic
9:54
integrity though and then we create this usage
9:57
model that kind of gives it out to say then I'm
10:00
just going to not use AI. Are we living up to
10:04
that sense of what we are we fulfilling our goal
10:08
of what we mean by academic integrity if we if
10:11
we're just like kind of cutting it out. So we
10:14
took a closer look at other examples and we used
10:17
a lot from different groups of organization.
10:20
I think the one we went through was from like
10:23
Washington public, like the Department of Public
10:27
Education or something like that. And it has
10:31
a spectrum model. So it goes through zero through
10:33
five levels. And of those levels, it has a zero,
10:39
I'm not going to use AI and all the way up to
10:41
five viewing AI as a co -creator. And really
10:45
the conversation of the tension came not because
10:49
of the spectrum piece of it, everyone kind of
10:51
like was on board with that, but it was in the
10:53
color coding. I know you guys and I listened
10:56
to your podcast. You had Leon Ferezon and this
11:00
is like part of what he's talked about too is
11:02
like the colors have meant a whole lot in what
11:05
we mean about AI guidance. So it's really interesting.
11:07
So I had been working on making some of the graphics
11:10
for it. So I had originally like made the spectrum
11:12
colors like our district colors. So it's a red
11:15
and yellow and a blue. And so it kind of went
11:18
from red to blue at the level five. And it was
11:22
like we were not going to go in that direction.
11:24
We needed to change it so that it was like red,
11:26
yellow, green and more mimicked the stoplight.
11:31
And I was like, okay, so that, you know, then
11:34
this is like kind of the tension, right? And
11:36
so we went back and forth a lot on this and we
11:39
ended up saying like, maybe this is an appropriate
11:41
starting place to have it be a little more stoplight
11:43
because it is a maybe easier entry point. But
11:47
I just think there's still more to do and I'm
11:51
just really interested in like Leon Ferz's work
11:54
with like changing the model to a circle and
11:57
changing the color scheme completely away from
12:00
that and I think it seems like things that could
12:03
be trivial but in practice they're not because
12:07
it's tied to the deeper sense of like what we
12:10
allow or don't allow when we use something with
12:13
certain colors that mean like yes no and maybe.
12:17
Yeah and one of the things that I liked about
12:19
what he kind of put forth is that one of the
12:23
things that stuck with me from that interview
12:25
was how he said there's a lot of play for teachers
12:29
within that scale, because the way that they're
12:32
going to apply it depended upon grade level or
12:37
content area that might shift based on the different
12:41
levels that they're going to be applying. And
12:45
so I wanted to kind of get your opinion too on
12:48
um it's really important obviously to have the
12:52
established frameworks as reference for the district
12:56
and you said that there's some tension there
12:58
and kind of figuring that piece out but can you
13:01
also touch a little bit too on um the reframing
13:05
that happens with just how teachers respond to
13:09
that uh we have districts that Don't have any
13:13
framework in place. We have some like your own
13:15
that you know You've you've started that work
13:18
and you've kind of established like this is where
13:20
we want to go with this This is what this should
13:21
look like. What about teacher mindset and adopting
13:25
some of those things how? Maybe how have you
13:29
seen educators at your own school respond to
13:32
that? But is there also some things that you
13:35
think are required to help shift teachers mindset
13:38
in that? because of all the AI is cheating conversations
13:42
and different things like that that cause people
13:46
to stop and say I'm not going to use it at all
13:48
or I'm very hesitant. So could you touch on that
13:53
a little bit just maybe the teacher mindset and
13:56
the shifts that you're seeing there? Yeah, I
14:00
think there's there's a lot you could unpack
14:02
with that piece of it. I think when we think
14:05
about teacher mindsets, I think it's broader
14:07
than AI, right? I think the vast majority of
14:13
teachers and educators are always doing the best
14:15
they can and with the best intent and like when
14:18
they know better, they do better. And it's getting
14:21
to that space where you're open and willing to
14:24
know better and having the time and ability to
14:29
do better with it. Because it becomes more actionable
14:39
when you advise teachers how to navigate between
14:42
this trust and verification piece of things.
14:47
So I'm hopeful like asking these kinds of questions
14:50
and creating these base metals things is just
14:53
getting the conversation going is part of the
14:55
beginning of how to break down the teacher mindsets
14:57
about things is reframing questions in a way
15:01
that helps you. look at not just the academic
15:05
integrity, but maybe like the learner integrity
15:07
or the learning integrity. Like how are we, so
15:10
we wanna make sure that they're preserving the
15:15
academics, but what are we also doing to preserve
15:17
the learner? And making sure they have voice
15:21
and process and agency represented in what they're
15:25
doing. And I think that's a shift away from a
15:28
lot of the traditional model of things. So it's
15:30
gonna take time to just really ask questions
15:33
and be in that space and work through it. In
15:37
our district, I think we see like really the
15:42
same as everyone else is seeing. We see, you
15:44
know, like the hard resistors, the early onset,
15:48
people who are willing to dabble and try. I think
15:52
we like there's a lot of research that shows
15:55
like 60 to 80 percent of teachers and students
15:58
really feel pretty similarly about the use of
16:01
AI in academics. And it's that they feel a little
16:05
hesitant and in part because they're not sure
16:08
if they're going to end up crossing a line or
16:10
a boundary. Like where is the boundary of where
16:12
this goes into academic integrity or a cheating
16:16
kind of model. And so like one of the things.
16:19
pose in the session too is like well what if
16:22
we consider we take out AI and we say like what
16:24
if there's a tutor or a parent or a peer supporting
16:28
that student. Where would you also draw the line
16:31
that this has become an academic integrity issue
16:34
if you're getting those kinds of support that
16:36
have been traditionally encouraged for students.
16:41
So it's like this working through it because
16:45
I think there's a lot of concern that we're Nobody
16:48
wants to break the rules or be the first person
16:50
to go out and do something that ends up being
16:53
wrong. And so how do we get in this space where
16:56
we can experiment and try with it and not feel
17:00
like we're doing harm? I recall, to the point
17:06
of what you're saying here, if you replace AI
17:08
with something else, drop in parent. I can't
17:11
tell you how many times when my kids were still
17:13
in high school and they had papers or projects
17:17
that they were working on, and they would come
17:19
to me to help edit the grammar, the sentence
17:23
structure of their papers. And I would give them
17:25
suggestions on what they could do to make a stronger
17:29
argument, or to fix the grammar in such a way
17:32
as to make it sound more... um scholarly maybe
17:37
or what whatever the word happened to be and
17:39
that's not a whole lot different than one of
17:42
the ways that you could be effectively using
17:44
AI to do some of that in in place of you know
17:48
the best human available to you is not available
17:50
at the time is AI a good alternative for that
17:53
and then is that cheating then when my kids would
17:56
come to me and ask for help and is it cheating
17:58
if they go to AI and ask for help Right? Because
18:02
then that goes to like 1984, Bloom suggested
18:06
that there was this two sigma problem that could
18:10
be solved, that if every teacher had an aide
18:12
and every student had a tutor, that you would
18:15
see this like two sigma growth in it. And, you
18:18
know, like there's a lot of debate saying like,
18:20
well, so if AI could be that tutor and that teacher
18:23
aide, are we at this point that we could turn
18:27
and make all this growth? it's like yes and no,
18:32
because it's still within this system that has
18:35
some really strong constraints in it. And I think
18:40
it's also this review of like, and what part
18:43
of the systems, our educational systems are really
18:46
working and high functioning? And what parts
18:49
maybe do we need to review and redesign? And
18:54
it makes an interesting case and argument for
18:56
that. So when you think about this idea of parents
19:02
doing that too, like my background is elementary.
19:04
And when I first was in the classroom, so I've
19:07
taught, I was in the classroom for like 15 years.
19:09
And when I was first in the classroom, we used
19:12
to do science fairs and big projects like that.
19:15
And over time, we stopped doing those and we
19:18
stopped doing them because it became, have and
19:22
have not conversation because they were the parents
19:24
who did the project for the students and bought
19:28
most of the materials and like it was just a
19:30
totally different world than a kid who put together
19:34
their own resources and made it happen. And it
19:37
just didn't feel equitable anymore to put on
19:39
those kinds of events. And then we just took
19:41
it away and then it was gone. And so I think
19:44
I also, when I enter this conversation, I bring
19:47
this perspective of of what things I've seen
19:52
happen in elementary and changes in pieces that,
19:58
how things function there, and then see how it
20:03
really accentuates into high school. So at the
20:06
session that I was with Jeremy, one of the, I
20:10
asked a question about like, do. do we just need
20:13
to make our assignments more engaging? Like,
20:15
is it an engagement issue? And this teacher right
20:17
away was like, it's not it, it's not engagement.
20:19
And she went into explaining that as a secondary
20:22
teacher, she has spent a lot of time really redesigning
20:27
her assignments to be engaging for her students.
20:30
And she was like an ELA teacher. And she had
20:34
purposely redesigned this project to... have
20:38
students like summarize or create a video in
20:41
a form, like a short form video format, like
20:44
a TikTok, Instagram kind of thing. And she wasn't
20:47
even asking them to record it, just to create
20:49
like the outline and the script and the content
20:51
of what they would put in the video. And she
20:54
said she had 64 students and she had four complete
20:58
the assignment, four. The rest of them just would
21:02
not engage in the work. And she said, then she
21:05
even went as far to say, hey, if you actually
21:09
record it, I will actually give you bonus points.
21:11
You can get extra credit for actually recording
21:14
it. And she had one student take on actually
21:17
recording it. And when you talk to her and you
21:20
thought about it, even the way she was explaining
21:22
the assignment, she wasn't even frustrated about
21:24
that. She was excited still to describe this
21:27
assignment because she felt like it was a really
21:29
engaging opportunity for them. but she couldn't
21:32
get them to engage in it. And so I wonder if
21:39
some of that comes from the educational structure
21:42
that's in place, where like as an elementary
21:45
teacher, I look and I see kindergartners come
21:48
in and bright and enthusiastic and eager to learn
21:51
and curious. And I taught fourth and fifth grade
21:54
a lot in my career. And I watched them leave
21:58
with mindsets already said if they are a good
22:01
learner or not good learner, if they're good
22:03
at school or not good at school and how engaged
22:07
they already want to be with the content and
22:10
how checked out they can already be by the end
22:12
of elementary school and how often it is that
22:16
elementary needs to be much more explicit. We
22:18
need to like be laying a strong foundation but
22:21
when a student comes with an authentic curiosity,
22:25
how often is it that they get like tampered down
22:28
and and told, like, not right now, not in this
22:32
time and space. And their day is so structured
22:34
that, like, then when does that time and space
22:36
come? When do they get to explore and be curious
22:39
in those kinds of ways? So I wonder how much
22:44
this idea of engagement also plays across it.
22:47
You know, one of my initial thoughts was like,
22:49
well, then it's an engagement thing. But there's
22:51
more to it, because what are we doing that we're
22:54
disengaging students so much even by fourth or
22:57
fifth grade? that they're going into secondary
23:00
just already said that they're kind of done with
23:02
it. And so for that, I've been reading The Disengaged
23:06
Teen by Jenny Anderson and Rebecca Winthrop.
23:10
And they described four modes of learners. And
23:13
so it's resistors, passengers, achievers, and
23:18
explorers. And It just really was tying together
23:22
the thoughts I had of elementary and this experience
23:24
the secondary teacher had taught and then my
23:27
own son when I was reading this book because
23:29
I think it's... So we know resistors like every
23:33
teachers had resistors who just actively work
23:35
against and they get a lot of the attention.
23:39
And then we know achievers because they also
23:41
get like the other end of the attention because
23:43
they're high flyers and they seem to be doing
23:44
just right. And they make an argument that achievers
23:48
might also be on the brink of some mental health
23:51
situations because they're putting themselves
23:54
up that the academics are kind of like giving
23:57
them their self -worth and value and if anything
23:59
in that tower crumbles they might crumble too.
24:03
We've seen that happen with high achievers or
24:05
it's one of those things where like you know
24:08
they say that A students will work for the B
24:11
students when they like when you think of like
24:14
the real world it's the A students who work for
24:16
the B students. And then there's the passengers
24:20
and I think I've always been really intrigued
24:22
by the passengers or these kids that are just
24:24
kind of like along for the ride and kind of do
24:26
like the minimum to get by and like what again
24:29
are we doing that we create this passenger system
24:32
and we're not engaging you not just in the task
24:35
of assignment but in wanting to learn because
24:38
I feel like it's one of the most human elements
24:40
we have that we are curious and want to know
24:42
about the world around us but somehow we create
24:45
this system where we end up with a mass of students
24:48
who don't want to. They just see it as this,
24:51
like, I'm just going to take the passenger ride
24:54
and do the minimum to get by. Do you think some
24:58
of that is due to or maybe a large extent is
25:01
due to the way that our system is set up once
25:06
kids get to that upper middle school and into
25:11
high school, it becomes more about playing the
25:13
game of school? to get a grade, or you've already
25:18
lost the game of know, while I might have with
25:24
amazing lessons and really amp up what they're
25:30
realize that either I'm go school or I'm going
25:34
to loo You know what I mean? And gone for either
25:38
group. R I mean, I do feel like th And I see
25:46
that in my own son. So I think that's like, I'm
25:48
reading this book. I'm seeing this in my own
25:50
child. I think we're because we're exploring
25:52
like what is cheating and why do cheaters want
25:55
to cheat kind of thing. And it's like, well,
25:57
first the research shows there's not really a
25:59
change. At least some of the initial research
26:01
has showed there's not really a change in the
26:03
amount of cheating that's happening. The Stanford
26:07
study is going to show that there's the same
26:09
amount of cheating happening. If you want to
26:11
cheat, you're going to cheat. And it's like,
26:12
and who's doing that? And I think in elementary,
26:16
we often ask the question or say things like
26:18
that behavior is always a sign of communication.
26:21
And like, what are kids telling us when they
26:23
make that choice though, when they want to take
26:25
the shortcut to their own learning, what are
26:27
they really telling us? And I get like, so I
26:29
saw this with my own son. So he was, he's 20
26:32
now. He was a sophomore in high school during
26:36
the pandemic. And he had been, you know, maybe
26:38
on the border of passenger achiever, like, and
26:42
there are others explorer who's a kid who's just
26:44
kind of like self -motivated. And it's not just
26:47
for the, the like carrots and nuggets of grades
26:50
along the way, but just actively engaged in their
26:52
learning kind of thing. And sometimes he could
26:54
like go into that space too. And he does in other
26:57
ways, like extracurricular type things, but school
27:01
wise, you know he was highly engaged in in high
27:07
level classes until the pandemic and then he
27:10
realized just how much the game was and it was
27:13
like he saw the cut behind the curtain and he
27:15
couldn't put it back and he just had the worst
27:18
I like he still made it through high school just
27:21
fine he he did what he needed to do and he made
27:23
it but he had the hardest time after he realized
27:27
it really was just a it was a token of like,
27:32
I'm just going to get by to get by. And he had
27:37
a harder time finding the purpose and meeting
27:39
it for himself. So maybe with a student like
27:43
your son, or if you want to picture a different
27:46
person too, that's fine. You mentioned AI is
27:49
a shortcut. And I think David and I have had
27:53
these conversations too. And I think we refer
27:56
to it as like cognitive offloading. it's an easy
27:59
button. I don't have to really think or engage
28:01
with it. But then at the same time, you know,
28:04
like, and it definitely I think for those people
28:08
that are looking to do that, the academic integrity
28:11
piece becomes, I think, a huge issue. But you
28:15
also talk about a little bit here about AI being
28:18
a tutor. You know, and can you can you kind of
28:21
give us and maybe in some ideas or maybe of something
28:27
effective that a teacher could do to help maybe
28:30
distinguish between those two different ideas
28:33
to help a student, such as maybe your son or
28:36
another one that you're imagining or whatever.
28:40
Right. Yeah, I think there's a lot to unpack
28:46
with that because I think exactly like you said,
28:49
I think it is the students who are It's a certain
28:53
student who's going to take that off road of
28:55
things. And also that we don't usually start
28:57
in a place of assuming that you have morals and
28:59
values that guide you not to cheat. Like we assume
29:03
that you've started this place that like you're
29:05
just out for an easy win. But I don't think that's
29:08
who are most students are. I don't I don't I
29:10
even my own set. So they take my example as my
29:13
son. I don't think he was out for just an easy
29:15
win. He he wanted to be engaged with it. He just
29:20
wasn't. And so I think The way I describe it
29:24
too is like I use AI as a thought partner and
29:28
it fills a void for my crazy ideas that come
29:33
to me at two o 'clock in the morning and I don't
29:34
have somebody else to talk them out with and
29:36
it it feels a void for like I have this idea
29:39
and I think that it might work so I can go back
29:43
and forth and have this thought partner that's
29:45
pushing me and my thoughts in another direction
29:47
and using it more you learn how to push back
29:50
also on the like very positive outcome that keeps
29:54
stroking your ego to think that you like everything
29:56
so when you wake up at two o 'clock in the morning
29:59
you know and you have this thing and the cat
30:02
doesn't engage with you because the cat recognizes
30:04
you're awake at that point, right? Right? Not
30:07
not a good feedback partner, is it? No. And so
30:11
it's like, it's that all the time tool that you
30:13
can have. And I think for students to be able
30:15
to engage in some of these AI as a tutor kind
30:19
of models. It's it's Instead of being a cognitive
30:23
offload, it's actually like deepening your thinking.
30:26
Like that's been my experience using it as a
30:29
thought partner is it deepens my thinking and
30:31
pushes me to look at it from a different lens
30:34
or angle. That's the potential that we have when
30:37
we can get students into those things. So there
30:40
are a handful of products that are available
30:43
for even free for you to use, right? Like Conmingo
30:46
and School AI and those kinds of things where
30:48
you can give some of those pieces to students
30:50
and still be engaging backside with how they're
30:54
interacting and engaging with it. So you're sure
30:56
that they're not just seeking answers for it.
30:58
And many of those are programmed not to give
31:00
answers to. And along that line, some of the
31:04
work that we're starting to move towards in our
31:06
district is taking our whole AI guidance committee
31:09
and breaking it up now because we've had a K
31:12
-12 group and breaking it up into subcommittees
31:15
by grade bands. So we're going to have a secondary
31:17
group and a middle school group and an elementary
31:19
group. And then thinking about what this AI tutor
31:23
might look like at those different levels because
31:25
it serves a different purpose and place in each
31:28
of those sections. And I think something that's
31:32
been interesting in connecting through Mangaia
31:36
is I get the perspective of then what higher
31:39
ed is thinking and what the workforce is thinking
31:41
and how we can, I think, we'll give this in elementary
31:46
a lot, that we want to be careful that we're
31:49
not always just preparing you for what comes
31:51
next. Like sometimes we just want to be in the
31:53
moment and really engaging deeply in where we
31:57
are and what it means to be. right here, right
31:59
now. And we also want to have an eye on what
32:04
does come next. So when we've looked at that,
32:08
then higher ed is looking for, well, how do we
32:10
engage? How are you engaging with AI so that
32:13
you can do it in depth in your field so you can
32:15
become prepared and proficient to enter your
32:18
field of work when you come out? Well, that is
32:20
like, can we use an AI tutor model or something
32:23
that gives you a more tailored response or do
32:29
we need to give you a full access to AI model
32:33
to to do that? And then you look at high school
32:36
and you say well if if college or higher education
32:40
is going to be looking at these models where
32:42
like maybe we're going to give you more of a
32:44
full access or at least in times and places how
32:46
are we using that? It's like a little bit of
32:49
a backwards design kind of thing like how do
32:50
we get the right level of AI use and AI tutoring
32:54
pieces into place? in those levels so that you
32:59
can move to that next stage and grow from where
33:02
you are. And I think that's what the potential
33:04
of the AI tutor models have in place, or the
33:08
AI as a thought partner have in place, because
33:10
it's not just about shortcutting you, it's about
33:13
getting additional thoughts, ideas, and pushing
33:16
your perspective and insight into deeper levels.
33:22
And those are some really good examples of the
33:24
actual everyday use of when students are engaging
33:28
with this. And if you were to step back and talk
33:31
a little bit about how you get to that point
33:36
where you are having teachers and students using
33:41
these platforms effectively, it all really starts
33:45
and stems from guiding principles and what the
33:49
district is going to establish and what what
33:52
those are going to look like and one of the things
33:54
that you suggest is inviting teachers to be part
33:57
of that process for one but then also there's
34:01
the idea of during that drafting developing principles
34:07
rather than like the you know don't do this and
34:11
don't do that and and having more of a instead
34:14
of a top -down approach a more collaborative
34:16
approach that you're starting to establish guiding
34:19
principles that everything else is going to flow
34:21
from. You talk a little bit about why you find
34:24
that to be important rather than the rigid rules
34:27
approach, which I already agree with you on that,
34:30
but I just wanted to get your perspective as
34:33
to why that approach is more effective and important.
34:38
I think when we look at policy and rigid rule
34:43
kind of things, specific to AI, we're always
34:47
going to be chasing the tool. It's going to evolve
34:49
and change and we're going to update our policy
34:51
as soon as we print it. And I think when we look
34:54
at policies and rigid rules on things, we automatically
34:58
are going to get those who are like, well, how
35:01
do I break that? They're going to want to flip
35:03
it right away. because you said that, right?
35:06
Like, you said this is like, don't do this, and
35:09
there are going to be people automatically that
35:11
are like, okay, then how do I get past this?
35:14
And how do I bypass this? I mean, just for the
35:17
intrigue of it sometimes, right? So I think that's
35:20
a big piece of it. And I think it's principles
35:23
that anchor us in our purpose. And anchored on
35:26
a purpose means we can be centered on what it
35:28
means to be. human and how we're bringing, how
35:31
we're using AI to bring out our most human elements,
35:34
right? Like I have really found through my teaching
35:37
career that I anchored in the four C's or sometimes
35:39
Michael Fullen goes for those six C's and includes
35:41
character and citizenship in those. And that,
35:45
you know, it's like more of a personal development
35:46
piece. But if those are some of our guiding principles,
35:51
then no matter how AI changes and evolves, that
35:54
tool evolves. I can still be grounded with students
35:58
in the conversation about why it's best for your
36:01
character or why it's best for communication
36:05
and why we want to keep humans at the center
36:08
of our work and that piece of it. So I think
36:12
it really helps us rephrase it from being that
36:16
it's like a stagnant, we're done with this and
36:20
we don't need to... rules or policies kind of
36:23
make it feel like, well, this is done, and now
36:25
this is the end, and it's not. And I think we're
36:30
still in this space where we're still really
36:32
truly just starting to understand how this is
36:36
going to impact education and educational system
36:39
and should. I think we look at it and we can
36:43
say, so what about our educational system right
36:47
now is so great and that it's serving all populations
36:51
so well that we shouldn't be making changes to
36:54
it and I think that's where if we look at principles
36:58
over policy that those are the guiding actions
37:02
that we need to to move with as we're evolving
37:06
and growing in this way. And do you think like
37:09
the you know looking at the stoplight model that
37:12
you had mentioned earlier did you feel like because
37:17
of the red being like no use and the green full
37:21
go. Do you feel like there's just so much nuance
37:25
with AI and individual context? Like it just
37:29
doesn't work as well as maybe it was initially
37:32
thought. Yeah, I think that when you look at
37:37
it in a stoplight and it's just a yes, no, and
37:39
kind of like a cautionary, you're negating. the
37:43
real idea of AI as a thought leader or thought
37:46
partner or as a tutor, because where exactly
37:49
does that fit in? If you're going to be at no
37:53
AI at all, then you're limiting that idea of,
37:56
it's like saying your parent or your tutor can't
37:58
help you with the assignments either then. And
38:01
I think it too quickly limits that when I look
38:06
at a spectrum of how I might use AI in an assignment,
38:11
or assessment or in education, there are ways
38:16
that I could evolve my thinking and elevate the
38:20
work to bring more of my process and more of
38:24
this like learner agency into it. If I understand
38:28
it's less like the stuff like just feels more
38:31
like good, bad, right, wrong, as opposed to differentiating
38:38
elements of the greater depth or ability that
38:41
it gave you to deepen your learning and understanding
38:44
because you utilize this like deep thinking partner.
38:49
And a lot of that comes down to like the learning
38:51
goal, right? I mean, you can have a learning
38:53
goal where I need to know that this is actually
38:56
your work, your thoughts that go into it. So
39:00
I'm just going to say. well, we're putting the
39:03
brakes no AI, whether you want to call that red
39:05
or not. And I agree with you 100%. I think when
39:08
I see red, I think, oh, bad. And green means,
39:12
hey, I'm all in. Good to go. Yeah. Yep. And so
39:16
I like that concept of there's a spectrum within
39:19
there that depending upon the learning goal,
39:22
that that academic integrity point still can
39:25
kind of come out, right? And then that's the
39:28
Julian AI part, right? Like I can use AI and
39:32
have academic integrity. Like there's a place
39:34
for, I feel like there's a place for these to
39:37
exist, but probably not in the more or less rigid
39:41
system that we currently are part of. Like we
39:44
have to be willing as educators to learn and
39:46
like know better, do better. And we have to be
39:49
modeling and being transparent with our students
39:51
so they can be matching up to that challenge
39:54
too. If you were to think about, obviously, there's
40:00
several different pieces that go into the guiding
40:03
principles. We know that even MDE had put out
40:07
their guiding principles around AI. They had
40:09
the five principles. And if you were to go back
40:14
in time a little bit and think about when your
40:17
group started that work, what would be the insights
40:21
that you would like to communicate to districts
40:23
who haven't started that process yet. Because
40:25
I know, like with some schools in our region,
40:30
we were starting to work with them on developing
40:33
guidelines for their district. But a lot of that,
40:35
you know, it requires conversations that need
40:37
to happen and certain pieces need to be included
40:40
in that. So just based on your experience of
40:44
that process and thinking like if you had to
40:47
go back all of a sudden and start that process
40:49
over again, where would you start? the conversation
40:52
once you had an established team? I think that's
40:56
a really great question. I think the approach
41:02
our AI guidance team took because putting together
41:07
the principal part more or less came very easily
41:10
to us. It was easy for us to get on the same
41:12
page. I think part of that is also that our district
41:17
had just reorganized and restructured our strategic
41:21
plan. So I think like we had already across the
41:25
district and some work and some thinking around
41:28
what does it mean to succeed in district 196
41:31
and what are our goals and values. And so it
41:35
was easy for us then to look at the guidance
41:38
from Minnesota. and the principles that MDE put
41:42
out and look at different states and different
41:45
schools and the things they had put out and then
41:47
look at our own strategic plan and make those
41:51
things align so that it felt like it was authentically
41:55
us and it was what it was grounded in our own
41:59
thoughts and beliefs but it was also based in
42:02
these like enduring concepts like centering on
42:05
people and ethics and safety and and those other
42:10
like big pieces that of course are a part of
42:12
our strategic plan also, but just the way that
42:15
we could integrate those together. For us, it
42:19
was a lot of like, let's look at a lot of different
42:21
models and see different things. And I think
42:22
in this session that I've offered, that's part
42:25
of what I try to put out there too. Like I've
42:26
just like, here's what we have in 196, like take
42:29
a look. What do you think? Is this like match
42:32
or like what would you edit or change about this?
42:35
Because I think the more we can collaborate together
42:39
and really take this like human approach to how
42:43
we explore these principles and how we're really
42:46
grounded and like foundationally like what is
42:50
our purpose for school and why are we here together
42:53
I think like when we can ground our principles
42:56
and that piece of it it's easy to build then
43:00
this like authentic piece that can is actionable
43:05
that's actually going to come into to work. Yeah,
43:09
I really like that and it kind of leads into,
43:14
you know, I recall from your session near the
43:16
end of it and you had some reflecting questions
43:18
at the end or some guiding questions and I really,
43:22
this one stuck with me. It was how can we make
43:25
student thinking visible throughout their learning
43:27
journey if one of our guiding principles is to
43:30
try to create these lifelong learners or to instill
43:34
that desire that sparked that curiosity and I'd
43:37
beat it out of them, right, I thought was really
43:40
kind of poignant. And, you know, so to bring
43:44
that back around, you know, what are some things
43:46
that you think teachers can start doing tomorrow
43:49
that I think can help students on that learning
43:52
journey and in being transparent about what that
43:55
process looks like and the use of AI within there
43:58
as that tutor, if we want to go back to that
44:01
that you were talking about. I think. I think
44:06
it starts with centering on the students. Like
44:08
I think it's asking them and it's talking to
44:11
them and gaining that. And I, I can think, I
44:13
can say that more easily from an elementary where
44:15
I maybe have like arranged 20 to 30 kids per
44:18
year and I see them all day long. It's easier
44:20
to make time to engage with each one of them.
44:23
But I think it's portfolios and it's profiles
44:26
of a graduate. And it's these other components
44:28
where I'm looking deeper into what your skillset
44:30
is and helping you have those metacognitive skills
44:34
of tracking and reflecting on your own processes
44:37
along the way and the depth of what you're going
44:40
to learn and gain from that about yourself and
44:42
about the content is just so rich and there's
44:45
so much research that supports that work that
44:48
I think the more we can move towards that. And
44:50
I was even thinking about this. So I just like,
44:53
it feels like a totally different lens of things,
44:55
but. It was it was connecting for me that I was
44:59
in a second grade classroom yesterday, helping
45:01
them with accessing and analyzing information
45:04
project, doing some like a first research project.
45:06
And actually, that was kind of interesting because
45:08
for second graders is like the first time they're
45:10
doing a research project and they're going to
45:12
do so many more research projects, at least the
45:16
way education stands now. Right. Like that's
45:18
this is your next, you know, seven, 10 years
45:21
of school. And here's the first time we're doing
45:24
it. And we're so we're studying dinosaurs and
45:27
so we really started with talking about like
45:29
where we're gonna get quality information from
45:31
and we have this fact file and it's organized
45:33
for them and. And they're collecting their facts.
45:36
And they were interested in this part. They thought
45:37
this was great. They got to pick their dinosaur.
45:40
They got to read about their dinosaur. They're
45:42
tracking their facts. And it's organized so they
45:44
understand which content they're going to. And
45:46
then we're building up our research skills and
45:50
how we're going to take our research and turn
45:52
it into sentences and formulate it into maybe
45:55
in some paragraphs so we can publish it. So we're
45:58
using Book Creator to publish these digital books.
46:02
So now we're at this process. where we're turning
46:05
our thoughts into sentences for each of the topics.
46:10
And we even have it set like a question answer
46:12
format, just so it's really clear which facts
46:15
are gonna go with which one. And when I was in
46:18
those classes, it's the second week that we were
46:20
working, I go for 30 minutes once a week. And
46:23
it was the second week we were working on this
46:24
writing sentences part. And I had this student
46:27
like, first she just kept... kind of like calling
46:30
out, like, I don't get it. And she'd done it
46:32
the week before, right? I don't get it. And so
46:36
I was checking in with her, redirecting her.
46:38
There were a couple other teachers and adults
46:39
in the room kind of doing the same thing. And
46:42
then she just kind of like repeatedly kept crying
46:45
out. So I came and sat down next to her. And
46:47
it's that it's taking the opportunities to engage
46:52
and know our students. So I sat down right with
46:54
her and I went through it with her and I was
46:57
like, what? What is stopping you from understanding
47:02
this right now? And what is bringing you to the
47:06
point that there are now tears? Tell me more
47:10
about what you're thinking and feeling right
47:11
now. And so the first part of it was we were
47:14
talking about the diet of her dinosaurs. She
47:16
had a brachiosaurus and it ate ferns. And she
47:19
had written down ferns without being sure what
47:21
ferns were. So we were like, well, let's go look
47:26
up what ferns are, right? And this is a skill
47:28
also. As you're researching things, you're going
47:30
to come into all kinds of jargon and technical
47:34
language as you do research. And you might not
47:36
be sure about your content. So you might have
47:39
to do some research about your research. So we
47:41
looked up what ferns were, and she was feeling
47:43
a little bit better. And then she still just
47:46
was not wanting to. to write the sentences and
47:50
it just kept taking the time with her to say
47:52
like you know we can stop this now if if this
47:55
if you're not going to be able to give your best
47:56
to this right now let's stop we'll find you something
47:58
else you can do where you can give your best
47:59
to this right now but if you can give your best
48:02
to this now and you can take all this work you
48:04
already did and put it into some sentences you'll
48:07
be ready to go to that next step where she really
48:09
wanted to get into book reader and just partnering
48:12
with her in that and being also offer her some
48:15
encouragement and offer her some support and
48:18
walking with her in it. That's what our students
48:20
need. They need, they need us to be the adults
48:24
in their space that walk them through this learning
48:27
journey and support them along the way. So we
48:32
ask them questions, engage in relationships with
48:35
them, help them track and document their thinking
48:37
processes along the way and encourage metacognition.
48:44
So transition here a little bit, you know, I
48:48
think these are all great things and I love that
48:50
focus of the human centered approach or the student
48:52
centered approach as you talked about here, but
48:54
let's zoom out a little bit from the classroom
48:58
where we were just focusing on here to let you
49:00
know, being part of Mingai, you kind of get your
49:04
finger on the pulse of. what conversations are
49:07
taking place around the state that relate to
49:12
AI and education? From a business perspective
49:16
or from a college or high school or elementary
49:19
perspective here, what do you think are some
49:22
of those conversations that are taking place
49:24
today, or what do you find energizing about those?
49:28
I find so much energizing about going to the
49:32
Mangaia meetings and engaging with all these
49:35
these collaborative partners. I think there's
49:40
there's a real sense of I think like a year ago
49:45
when we were asking this question it was a lot
49:47
of like we still just have a lot of people resistant
49:49
and they haven't really tried and so we're just
49:52
kind of avoiding the whole thing as much as we
49:55
can right and I think a year later we're at this
49:58
place that more people maybe from a personal
50:03
standpoint and maybe from a professional standpoint
50:04
have dabbled. Maybe it wasn't even intentional,
50:08
right? Maybe you just did a Google search and
50:10
AI just comes up as your first option now and
50:12
it wasn't even an intentional use of AI. But
50:14
I think there's more sense of how this is truly
50:19
impacting the way that we are accessing and analyzing
50:22
information just as adults and humans in the
50:25
world. And then there's this real sense of Oh,
50:30
okay. So how do we, so I think policy and practice
50:34
and principles are a big part of what the need
50:37
and concern is. It's like, how do I address this?
50:41
And I think it feels like there's also this real
50:46
need for evaluating assignments and assessments.
50:52
are we doing and how I think it goes to like
50:55
the the four to fours questions of a PLC like
50:58
what what do we want the students to learn how
51:01
do we know they have learned it what do we do
51:03
if they do and what if they what are actions
51:05
going to be if they don't know and I think we're
51:08
taking a different look and lens at that piece
51:11
of it to say well how how can we enhance what
51:18
well first it does this thing does this assignment
51:22
does this assessment actually assess our learning
51:24
goals and how can we enhance that connection
51:28
to ensure it really does and it's kind of like
51:31
building to this more authentic assignment and
51:34
assessment piece of it that looks like maybe
51:38
it'll go in a direction that's more focused on
51:40
the processes that you're taking along the way
51:42
than just at a product lens and I think Statewide,
51:48
there's also a lot of conversations that continue
51:51
and need to continue about safety and ethics
51:54
and precautions. So it's easy to have a whole
52:00
lot of student data and be able to enter that
52:06
into an AI, but is that the correct thing to
52:09
do? how much or how little data and actual student
52:15
information is appropriate to be putting in and
52:18
how do you redact, you know, personal identifier
52:22
information from that data and still make it
52:25
something that's actionable to you on the other
52:26
side. And so I think there's a lot of conversation
52:29
about that piece also going forth and like. Personally
52:35
was like an elementary in our district. One of
52:38
the things we're seeing because we're just at
52:41
sharing the guidance with elementary schools
52:43
and teachers is. We see a lot of turn towards
52:48
like, well, if this tool. can make me something
52:52
that's kind of like cute and it seems like it's
52:55
good quality. That's what I'm going to use. And
52:57
so I have a little bit but I'm cautious and I'm
53:00
leery of things that products that sell themselves
53:03
on time saving and and that kind of piece because
53:07
it goes to the cognitive offload thing again,
53:10
like are we offering the best or are we offering
53:13
a resource that's maybe based in bias and just
53:16
replicating systems and structures and pieces
53:19
that haven't been that effective for us to this
53:21
point? So I think there's. There's a whole lot
53:26
happening out there. But I'm really energized
53:28
by staying in this conversation. We keep grounding
53:32
it back to being human -centered and student
53:34
-centered. And that's a big focus that Meghaya
53:37
has. Because I think when you ground it back
53:39
to that piece and to the principles, it's easier
53:43
not to get lost in it. Yeah, and you know, I
53:49
gotta say, man, I really appreciated the work
53:51
that you have done in particular as part of that
53:54
group and having listened to you speak now a
53:56
couple of different times. And so thank you and
53:59
I hope you continue to stay involved in that
54:01
because I think it's voices like yours that we
54:04
need to be able to amplify. So it's, you know,
54:06
one of the reasons why. Super excited to get
54:09
you on on our podcast here But we're gonna kind
54:11
of shift to kind of one of the things that David
54:14
and I have started to do at the end of our our
54:17
podcast now Is our lightning round questions?
54:21
So we will kind of ask you a few questions here,
54:24
you know There you could take them whatever direction
54:26
you would like to if it's a one -word answer.
54:29
That's fine If you think it's something you would
54:30
like to elaborate on because it's something that's
54:33
a important to you Then feel free to do so But
54:36
we'll just kind of take turns asking them and
54:39
David's going to kick us off here with the first
54:41
one. Alright, so Amanda, if you could instantly
54:46
have like an AI assistant right now, so you know,
54:49
like a GPT or a jam or something like that. One
54:53
that you haven't created yet, but you know you
54:56
need. What would you name it and what would it
54:58
do? So this question like kind of. calls back
55:03
to the whole thing too. So I both want to encourage
55:05
both of you to stay in this too, because I've
55:07
also gained a ton from you and all of the great
55:09
work that you have going on in your organizations
55:11
and the things you're doing for Minnesota as
55:13
well. So I think it's, we all have to stay in
55:16
this space because this is the work, right? And
55:20
so that brings me to that because about like
55:23
a year ago, Jeremy and I and Diana Fenton, we're
55:26
all and who was one of my instructors and when
55:28
I did my master's program. So it was like this
55:30
awesome culmination. We were in a group on centering
55:33
on people and we ended up working on idea of
55:36
like, well, how do we vet AI tools to know if
55:39
we should be purchasing these things or not?
55:41
And then we we looked at Eric Kurtz rubrics.
55:44
We looked at a triple E framework. We looked
55:46
at all these pieces and we're evaluating them.
55:48
And then it was this guy right here, Jeremy,
55:50
who was like, wait, we could put together a GPT
55:53
and we could have it, we can have AI evaluate
55:55
the AI. We were like, what? And it was like my
55:59
first foray into like, this is a thing. We could
56:02
just make a tool that does the tool. And so right
56:05
back at you, Jeremy, because you like, inspired
56:08
me in that way. I still use that one. I still
56:11
do. Yeah, me too. And I've built others like
56:15
it now. So we We get a lot of like, elementary
56:21
wants this like literacy app kind of thing. And
56:23
we're like, well, does this align with our science
56:25
of reading practices and structured literacy?
56:27
Like, I don't know. So I built a tool that was
56:30
like all of the resources we have about it. And
56:32
I'm like, evaluate this tool and how well does
56:34
it align, right? It's very much built off the
56:36
same idea that you've got started in that group.
56:40
So, and if I were building, yeah, thank you.
56:43
If I were to build my own GPT, or agent or copilot,
56:48
I think I would go for a pedagogy partner. So
56:51
it's this way that I've also been framing. I
56:54
have seven elementary schools and I get to them
56:57
all in the week. So I do two a day on Mondays
57:00
and Tuesdays and then one a day the rest of the
57:02
week. And I have like office hours. And office
57:05
hours are sometimes really engaging and sometimes
57:07
it's me city and the library kind of like ready
57:11
and available and maybe answering emails from
57:14
one of the other six buildings that I'm at. So,
57:17
but I've been thinking about like, how can I
57:19
flip and reframe this piece of the day so it
57:23
is more engaging? And I thought like, well, I
57:25
could flip it around, like I could be your pedagogy
57:27
partner. And I could be someone to like offer
57:30
that when I'm there for these office hours, and
57:32
it's your before school prep time or your after
57:34
school prep time, that this tool could that that
57:39
you and I can partner with AI and this start
57:42
partner kind of thing and look through like what's
57:44
a challenge or barrier in your classroom, let's
57:46
work through it together. And so I thought, well,
57:48
like I make a GPT of this too. So it'd be pedagogy
57:51
partners to kind of like enhance the scale of
57:54
I can't be in all seven buildings all the time.
57:56
And I don't want it to replace me just to enhance.
58:00
Right. No, no code. But just as an opportunity
58:04
to scale that effort so that it could happen
58:07
even if I'm not available for you at that moment.
58:10
All right, we're going to kind of flip that here
58:12
a little bit with the next one, okay? Because
58:14
we've been very tech -heavy and tech -focused
58:16
and that one definitely was. But what's one non
58:19
-tech or analog thing that you still just can't
58:24
give up? My notebook. I have a paper pencil.
58:28
You guys had... sketch notes on, I felt like,
58:33
you know what? That is what I do. I need a blank
58:34
piece of paper. When I'm like two o 'clock in
58:37
the morning, I need my thought partner. It's
58:38
also a blank piece of paper where I'm creating
58:41
all this weird, it makes sense in my mind information
58:45
that I later will try to share with somebody
58:47
and they can't make sense of it. And that's fine.
58:50
It's my notebook though. And so that I take in
58:52
my notebook that I'm organizing my crazy thoughts
58:55
into some organized action steps, notebook, pencil.
58:59
That's what I need. All right. Okay, so the next
59:04
one is you get to replace one school staff position
59:08
with an AI -powered robot. This is just a hypothetical
59:11
question. We don't have to take it too serious
59:14
here, but which role would it be and why? And
59:19
I'm glad it's hypothetical because I would hate
59:21
to... The idea of robots replacing humans is
59:24
like, you know, that's one of the scary elements.
59:26
Like I don't... I don't think it's something
59:28
any of us are looking forward to unless it's
59:30
because now that human is more engaged with other
59:33
humans or able to do some other tasks and we've
59:36
offloaded something that deserved to be offloaded.
59:40
So in a school or in our schools, I would offload,
59:45
it tends to be the same person in our buildings,
59:47
like the instructional clerk who's making copies
59:50
and doing lunch duty. And so that this person
59:53
could then be engaged with a small group of students
59:57
or having conversations with kids at lunch, rather
1:00:00
than telling them the what fors and making sure
1:00:03
they sort their trash responsibly. So I would
1:00:07
offload that copy clerk lunch duty person. I
1:00:11
like how you said it too. The idea here is not
1:00:16
to replace somebody, but to enhance the environment
1:00:19
for everybody that's at the district. Right.
1:00:23
What's one thing that about you that your students
1:00:26
or your colleagues would be surprised to learn?
1:00:29
I don't talk to robots. Like I don't. I've really
1:00:35
engaged in this and I'm like all of those like
1:00:36
I'm a leader in the state or like all the like
1:00:38
I'm FZO with this group and all this kind of
1:00:41
stuff. And I'm like, first of all, I'm like,
1:00:43
I don't know. I just kept saying yes to things
1:00:45
and there I am. But second, then people are.
1:00:49
Like, I don't talk to my phone and I don't talk
1:00:52
to, I don't even know their names all the time
1:00:54
because I don't talk to them. Yeah, I don't talk
1:00:57
to the robots. Now, if you count that I'm typing
1:01:00
to them, you know, that I do type to the robots,
1:01:04
but I don't like verbally talk to robots. Yeah,
1:01:08
I just, I don't know. I will talk to my refrigerator
1:01:10
when it beeps at me and reminds me that I've
1:01:12
kept the door open too long. You know, I'm like,
1:01:14
I got it. I'm just getting the milk in, right?
1:01:17
I don't talk to the other robots. That makes
1:01:21
two of us, because I can't bring myself to use
1:01:23
the voice thing very much. I just continue to
1:01:26
default to typing. I don't know why, but. I know.
1:01:28
I processed that a little. I processed that threshold.
1:01:31
I do know. That's good. I'm sure there'll be
1:01:35
some point where it's like it just doesn't make
1:01:37
sense not to anymore. Even like, I don't know,
1:01:39
just going through with different things like.
1:01:41
People have been like, oh, and you're using this
1:01:43
gem. It's so much easier if you just record yourself.
1:01:45
And I'm like, I mean, that's brilliant. But then
1:01:47
I'd be talking. They'd have to record it. I'll
1:01:51
just type it. All right. This is, let's see.
1:02:00
The next question is, when it comes to AI and
1:02:03
education, what's your current hot take? Honestly,
1:02:06
too, it doesn't have to necessarily be AI in
1:02:08
education. It could just be in general. But what's
1:02:10
your current hot take, something that you believe
1:02:13
that not everyone agrees with yet? I mean, I
1:02:18
think I already kind of hit upon it. I think
1:02:20
it's products and processes. I think I even a
1:02:23
year ago, less than a year ago, months ago, was
1:02:26
really into like this product and that product
1:02:29
and this product and what they can do. But since
1:02:32
Gemini is so easily like into our Google workflow.
1:02:35
And in our district, we also have Microsoft and
1:02:37
Copilot available to us. And because they're
1:02:41
just so accessible and then I can go in and make
1:02:43
a gem and the gem can do whatever I do. I mean,
1:02:46
basically anything, right? I have become more
1:02:50
leery of the products out selling themselves.
1:02:54
And it's not like I think most of the companies
1:02:56
are out there like. in the right space and right
1:02:59
intents and and and that kind of piece but like
1:03:01
if we don't have to purchase something and we
1:03:05
can make it ourselves and then we have this ownership
1:03:08
and buy -in that that's something that we've
1:03:10
made and done and we're modeling then that piece
1:03:13
that like we want students it like the learning
1:03:16
integrity and it's this process we're taking
1:03:18
along the way then that i'm all in like let's
1:03:21
be a part of the process before we're buying
1:03:23
products then maybe we'll find the right product
1:03:25
that will fit us So products and processes. And
1:03:32
I get the last lightning question here. What's
1:03:35
your walk -up song or what's a song that like
1:03:38
when you instantly gets you motivated or you
1:03:41
go to when you need that pick -me -up? I don't
1:03:44
know. I had a harder time with this question
1:03:46
than I should. I just like listen to the rate.
1:03:50
I'm opportunistic, like whatever is on. I don't
1:03:53
know. I had a harder time with that than I thought
1:03:56
I would. I think, I think, I flipped it. I asked
1:04:02
my husband this and I was like, what would be
1:04:04
my walk -up song? And he was like, well, flip
1:04:07
it. Because then even he had a hard time with
1:04:09
thinking about what it would be. So then he was
1:04:12
like, flip it. He was like, well, what else would
1:04:13
motivate you? And he was like, do you have like
1:04:15
a quote or something you go to? So then I went
1:04:18
to, OK, I. I do, when I was in the Learning Design
1:04:22
and Technology program, Nancy Van Erp was the
1:04:26
program lead of that. And she was, her handle
1:04:29
and things was, if not us, who? And if not now,
1:04:32
when? And I think that one really motivates me
1:04:35
is just so action oriented. And it applies to
1:04:38
AI, but it applies to anything. So I think I
1:04:42
get really motivated by like, quotes and and
1:04:46
like being inspired by other people in collaboration
1:04:48
with them so if not us if not now when and if
1:04:52
not us who and the good news is that you could
1:04:55
legitimately make your own ai song with that
1:04:58
quote playing so good i should do that now So
1:05:04
Amanda, thank you so much once again for coming
1:05:07
on and sharing your great insights with us here.
1:05:11
You know, do you have anything coming up that
1:05:13
you would like to promote or share or anything
1:05:16
like that? Or, you know, how can people reach
1:05:19
out to you if they would like more information
1:05:21
or to follow up or just to kind of connect? That's
1:05:27
really a great question. I'm like just entering
1:05:29
the space that like I feel like I've been in
1:05:32
the space where like I'm trying to talk and there's
1:05:34
maybe not always an audience and like oh I'm
1:05:37
now in the space that like I'm saying things
1:05:39
and like people are interested and I'm like I'm
1:05:42
not even really sure what to do with this so
1:05:43
I don't know that I have like a great way to
1:05:47
reach out. We could definitely add your email
1:05:49
or your LinkedIn if that works for you. I am
1:05:53
on LinkedIn so I could do that. I can't even
1:05:55
think of what the so yes let's add that after
1:05:59
because I can't even think what it is right now.
1:06:01
Perfect. I think I'll link your presentation
1:06:03
for the Google site that you had shared along
1:06:06
with that into there as well, so people can dive
1:06:08
into it a little bit more. Yeah, it's purposely
1:06:12
designed as a website so people can take it,
1:06:15
use it. it just felt like more actionable. But
1:06:19
coming up, Mingaya's got some exciting things
1:06:22
and I've been really working for helping to like
1:06:25
build out our website and promote different things.
1:06:28
So St. Cloud's got a AI conference kind of coming
1:06:32
up on December 5th. And then I have a presentation
1:06:35
that was accepted at MESPA, the Minnesota Elementary
1:06:38
School Principals Association in February. So
1:06:42
I'm really excited about those things. Awesome.
1:06:45
Well, thank you so much and have a wonderful
1:06:47
rest of your day. Thank you. It was really great.
1:06:50
Thank you for this opportunity. Thanks, Amanda.
1:06:54
Thanks for listening to Integrate This. Want
1:06:57
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1:06:59
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1:07:02
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1:07:16
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1:07:19
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