Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #88: Interview with Elizabeth Mohler, Ph.D. Researcher, Educator, Advocate, Scholar, Speaker

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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #88: Interview with Elizabeth Mohler, Ph.D. Researcher, Educator, Advocate, Scholar, Speaker · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

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Podcast Commentator: Greetings, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to
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her bi-weekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary.
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Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
1:36
insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
1:40
Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
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especially kids with disabilities.
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Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach,
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dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
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law graduate, and podcast commentator.
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She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
2:02
skills and expertise in access, technology and information.
2:07
As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
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she just wants to make things better than possible.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
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I am Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who
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sees the world mainly through sound, through touch and stubborn optimism.
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I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant,
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author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
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You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010,
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I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites
2:58
accessible to every Canadian, not just recited ones.
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And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disabled
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disability groups to turn equal access into federal law.
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And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late
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Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers.
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When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio,
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you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
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producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
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gadgets talk back in plain language.
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Everything I do circles.
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One goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice.
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I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench,
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where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
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Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
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let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as
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remarkable as the world that we are trying to build.
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I am pleased. I am proud and I am privileged to introduce to you Elizabeth Mohler.
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But when I first met her, I knew her as Chelsea.
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So I hope I do not miss and call her Chelsea.
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Elizabeth. Welcome.
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Elizabeth Mohler: Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here.
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Donna.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Good. I always knew that you would be going places.
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My dear. From the first day I met you, I thought this is our future.
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And here she is. She's graduated with her PhD and let's get going.
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So, Elizabeth, you were born with congenital glaucoma and grew up in Brockville,
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Ontario, before your family relocated to Toronto in the 1980s to access services.
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Can you take our listeners back to those early years and tell us what that journey was
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like for you and your family, and how it shaped the person that you would
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become?
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Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, for sure. So my family and I left Brockville in 1987,
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so I would have been two. So I guess now everybody knows how old I am. That's right.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Look what you've done.
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Elizabeth Mohler: That's right. Yeah. At the time, the community living movement was starting to
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blossom. You know, deinstitutionalization conversations were happening.
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But we, my family, I think, knew at the time that the services we would
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need as a family were going to be in Toronto.
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So things like Holland Bloorview shout out to Holland Bloorview.
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I volunteer with them.
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The hospital for Sick Children.
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Schools for the the blind as well as other resources.
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My family sort of unit is comprised of myself.
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I'm the youngest and I live with almost total blindness.
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I have two brothers that live with dual diagnosis that are non-verbal.
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And I have a couple of stepbrothers as well as my brother Kyle and then my,
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my parents so we're quite a big family.
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And so I think, you know, when we moved here in Toronto in the early
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90s, like late 80s, really, it was thinking about services.
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So getting connected with you know, a preschool for the blind things like
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orientation and mobility.
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And then later, you know, going, moving from an integrated school where
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they certainly did their best with programming.
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But knowing that there was needs and supports outside of the classroom that I would need.
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So that's where w Ross McDonald came in.
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So I, I went to started w Ross McDonald in grade five really to gain expanded core
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curriculum skills. So like daily living skills,
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extracurricular activities, music, things I couldn't maybe gain in a
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community school in the same way, at least back then.
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And so that was a really big moment that kind of shaped who I was.
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I discovered a love for swimming and sports athletics running track and field,
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trampoline music. You know, I sang in choirs and really began to sort of
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find myself and who I was.
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And I stayed at w Ross McDonald until the end of OAC.
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Again, I'm dating myself.
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Because that no longer exists.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Go ahead.
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Elizabeth Mohler: But after that I, I went to Laurier, Brantford,
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which is a small campus of the main Wilfrid Laurier and Waterloo.
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At the time I went there was just under 500 students and I was the first student with
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vision loss. So, you know, I, I think kind of thinking through the
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years, I think one thread that for me has always been really important is finding my
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own voice and dependence you know, being able to be a trailblazer.
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Certainly being the first student with sight loss at Wilfrid Laurier in Brantford,
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you know, I was really instrumental in some of their early accessibility conversations
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and was proud to do that.
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So I'll, I'll leave that there.
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But yeah, I think definitely the opportunity to go to a specialized school for,
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for me was instrumental in helping me become the person I am today.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you said that you attended W Ross MacDonald school for the blind.
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Starting in grade five.
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Elizabeth Mohler: Correct? Yes.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: For those listeners who may not be familiar with that school,
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can you describe what that experience was like and how it influenced your education and
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your sense of identity as a young person with vision loss?
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Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, absolutely. So W Ross MacDonald is a, is a school for the blind,
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where folks generally will come during the week and stay in a,
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in a lodge or a dorm because people come from all over the province of Ontario.
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I think at one point it was maybe all over Canada,
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but I, I think that's no longer.
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And so really the idea, besides getting a full academic suite of
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courses is that you're developing skills like life skills like orientation and mobility.
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You're also with peers that also have have some degree of vision loss.
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So there's a shared understanding. So it really for me was a place where I found
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community. You know, I still have some of my closest friends from the school.
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I think it really helped shape my confidence.
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You know, when I went to university and I was living in a dorm,
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it was interesting because in some ways I had more skills than my my sighted classmates who
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were coming in who maybe had never cooked before or done laundry.
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I think, you know, for me, again, it really helped me find who I was
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build community. I think that whether people decide to stay in their local school or
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whether they decide to attend a specialized schools,
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very personal. And I think both are right at different times in a person's life.
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And I think for me, what made it right was just knowing that there's things that my
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family couldn't necessarily teach me, that I needed to learn to be independent.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you learned to cook while you were at W.
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Ross McDonald.
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Elizabeth Mohler: Exactly. Yes.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Okay. I'll have to try this out one of these days
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Elizabeth Mohler: Exactly. Yes.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Something that really struck me about your story is that you have two brothers who are
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blind and also live. Live also live with nonverbal autism and other diagnoses.
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Now, this gives you a perspective that very few people in our field have,
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and this makes you understand disability both as a person living with it and as a
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caregiver. How has that dual experience shaped the way you approach your advocacy and
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your professional work?
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Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, it's a really important topic.
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So we know that 1 in 4 Canadians right now is going is,
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is taking on caregiving work.
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And that's, that's continuing to grow as, as our population ages and lives longer with
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more complexities. I think what we don't talk enough about is caregivers who themselves
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have disabilities. I think sometimes there's a binary when we think about caregivers you
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know, there's the person over here receiving care and there's a person over here giving
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care and in, you know, in my PhD work, which we'll talk more about,
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I trouble that assumption.
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Because I don't think there's this dualistic caregiver care receiver.
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I believe we all give and receive care.
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You know, somebody might be providing physical care to somebody,
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but that person might make their, their care provider smile or they're,
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you know, providing financial support to their care provider.
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You know, I think that there's, there's a lot of work that needs to be done
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to really look at what we mean by care.
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And so one of the things that I find is, is challenging in some caregiving spaces is
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there's not room for caregivers with disabilities. We don't talk enough about it
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And we should, because we know that the population is aging into disability and more
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and more disabled people are going to find themselves in caregiving roles.
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And I think that part of the conversation that needs to happen is really,
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how do we support caregivers who themselves have access needs?
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So I provide a lot of support you know, not day to day,
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but sort of on a more administrative level for,
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for my brothers. And that's something that when I talk about in caregiving spaces,
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it's it's interesting to have conversations around what access for a caregiver could look
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like. So I think it's definitely shaped kind of the things that I become passionate about
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and that I talk about and study.
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You know, I think, I think sometimes we conflate providing a service with providing
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care and I see carers a lot more holistic and something that we all are giving and
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receiving.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think it's quite another not, I shouldn't say undertaking,
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but, you know, a very challenging environment to be in.
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Right.
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Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. For sure.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Your academic path took you from a Bachelor of Arts in Contemporary Studies
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at Wilfrid Laurier University to a Master of science in Occupational science at Western
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University, and ultimately to a PhD in health and rehabilitation sciences,
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all on a prestigious four year's SHC doctoral fellowship.
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What a mouthful. For our listeners who may be blind or partially sighted and considering
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graduate school, what was it like navigating post-secondary education as a person with a
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visual disability. And what kept you going through all of those years?
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Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. I think that, you know, when we think about post-secondary,
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one of the things that, you know, I always like to talk to folks
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about is really thinking about understanding,
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having a really good understanding of what your access needs are,
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whether it's technology, whether you know, you need a tenant care or
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sighted guide, because most people aren't going to know unless they're in our field
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what those needs are and being able to really articulate those needs.
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I think what's unique about graduate school is that it isn't just what you do in the
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classroom. In fact, a doctoral level, you're only in your classwork for the first
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year. Maybe you go to seminar for a couple of additional years,
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which is essentially once a month, you get together with your colleagues and you
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talk about your work and you read emerging scholarship and sort of,
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you know, canonical scholarship in the field and talk about it.
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But essentially you're out on your own doing,
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writing, doing research, going to conferences.
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So you really need to think about your accommodations in terms of like what you're
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going to need in the classroom, but also what you're going to need beyond
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that to be successful.
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So Donna mentioned the four year Social Science Humanities Research Council doctoral
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fellowship. That's an award that Masters and PhD students can apply for to help fund their
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research. So it's an external it's through the federal government,
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through something called the Tri-council agencies.
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So there's a web portal you apply through that portal.
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And then if you're successful, then you, you receive a scholarship directly
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to your post-secondary institution.
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That process for me was not accessible.
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Back at the back at the time I applied, this was six years ago just for context.
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They had a lot of drop down menus in their application that jaws wouldn't read.
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There was a couple of CAPTCHAs, however.
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One of the things I did early on was I found an email,
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which is very hard to do on some of these websites you know,
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government websites and finally connected with somebody.
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And I was part of a pilot to try and improve the accessibility of the Tri-council
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application funding application process.
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So I was pretty, I was pretty pleased to be a part of that.
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So I think the thing that I always say to students is there's a lot of invisible work
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that goes into being a disabled student, and you need to pace yourself and you need to
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have community because I think a lot of the times we feel like we have to fix everything
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and we feel, we feel like we're kind of we're working to work.
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I have a colleague and friend who's always saying, we're working to work. And I really
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like that saying because it's all the things we have to do just to work.
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So I think you really need a community of support around you or a coil of support.
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I like the coil metaphor because it's multi-layered.
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It's multifaceted. It speaks to the different levels and layers of support in your,
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in your life. And I think that's really important to have that support.
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I also think it's important to acknowledge the emotional labor that students with
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disabilities take on. But there is, you know,
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and I think that, and I think that those things are important. And I also think it's,
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it's really important to recognize that there's also opportunities for leadership.
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Like these are all skills.
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When you're talking about yourself as a student that you can,
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you can position as leadership skills, as, you know,
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change management skills as presentation skills,
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as advocacy and activism skills and experiences.
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So I think it's really important to think about everything you're doing in terms of
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your skills, because you are going to, you are going to be drawing on those for your
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whole life. But really to make sure that you build a community around you,
18:27
that you reach out and ask for help, there's nothing worse,
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you know, than getting to the end of a semester and realizing that if you'd had
18:33
accommodations, things would have worked out.
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So asking for help right away being proactive and it's okay if you don't know what you
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need. Like when I went into my PhD, we were required to be a TA and I didn't know
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how I could proctor. I didn't know how I could do a scantron.
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So I wrote a letter to my dean who's lovely.
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Shout out to Doctor Shannon Sebold.
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Explaining here are the things I think I can do.
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Here are the challenges that I foresee as a TA.
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I'm really excited about the opportunity to be a part of the learning community at
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Western. And I'd like to talk with you about whether we can,
19:07
can work out a placement.
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And I listed the things I could do.
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I could run seminars, I could you know, mark essays,
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I could mark presentations.
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So I think it sometimes isn't always about thinking about,
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you know, what the barriers are, but where are there opportunities and
19:22
solutions and coming armed with those when you're,
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when you're speaking to people, whether it's your department chair, your
19:27
dean, whether you're speaking to accessibility professionals and just being
19:33
open because you're not going to know what you're going to need right away necessarily.
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So having those continuous conversations about your accommodations.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, just listening to you really fascinates me in that all of this is not for
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the faint of heart. You've got to be a go getter.
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You've got to be able to go out there and, and roll with the times.
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It's not for the person who is going to sit in the corner and expect everything to be
20:03
given to them, right? You have to go out there.
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You have to forge paths.
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You have to you literally are on your own a lot of the time.
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And, and your, your, I wouldn't say your job,
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but it's, you know, you have to convince the sighted world that,
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hey, I am vision impaired, but you know what?
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I can do it.
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Elizabeth Mohler: Right. Absolutely.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Admire anybody like yourself who has been able to go out there,
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get your PhD, and now, man, you're our future.
20:38
No. So your doctoral research examined how Ontario's direct funding program
20:48
shapes the way that disabled persons access attendant services,
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and how service users resist and negotiate those structures.
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Can you explain for our listeners what direct funding is all about and why it matters so
21:11
deeply to people with disabilities, and what the research uncovered about how the
21:19
system actually works in practice?
21:23
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, absolutely. So Ontario direct funding.
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So here in Ontario, there's a program called Ontario Direct Funding which essentially
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gives individuals with physical disabilities who qualify and are approved money to recruit
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and hire and train and onboard their own personal support workers or attendants.
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So it was really direct funding is based off the heels of the independent living movement
21:48
in the 60s and 70s, which asserted that people with disabilities wanted to have
21:52
control and autonomy over their own care.
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And so many centers for independent living around the world exist to promote that.
22:00
So my work actually used something called critical discourse analysis,
22:05
which really looks at how language and power are interconnected,
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how language is used to shape how we might look at a phenomenon or a concept like
22:15
disability, and the ways in which equity and justice are reproduced or not through
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discourse and text. So critical discourse analysis sort of falls on the heels of
22:26
discourse analysis of linguistics.
22:29
And uses a lot of critical scholars like Norman Fairclough and Michel Foucault,
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Michel Foucault, who I took up in my work, as well as Shelley Tremain,
22:37
who are kind of critical scholars that look at power.
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So my work actually ended up I didn't actually,
22:44
for my project talk to service users of the program.
22:47
I looked at program texts, specifically 51 program documents that were
22:52
acquired using a strategic search strategy.
22:56
And then took each document through an analytic guide and then built for discursive
23:03
threads based on the results of the analytic guides.
23:07
After I'd put them into an Excel spreadsheet and looked across for themes and threads.
23:13
So for discursive threads emerged, which really had to do with one that's my
23:19
favorite is a term that I coined called chrono normative citizenship,
23:23
which really kind of, when you break it down, chrono time normative
23:27
and then citizenship. So this really talked about how disabled people are expected to
23:33
conform to a very able bodied notions and structures of time and how people are
23:37
expected to break down their care routines and show exactly how much time they're going
23:43
to need for their care routines in ways that can be very invasive,
23:46
and specifically looking at how time is used as a governing mechanism to a lot or control
23:51
care and how people, you know, how techs really look at producing time as
23:59
you know, the, the less time you need for your care,
24:02
the better. So very much, you know, in line with sort of capitalist
24:06
notions of like, you know, we don't, we don't want people taking too
24:10
much or using too much from the system.
24:13
You know, I'm kind of really putting this into plain language, but I really like the
24:16
way that this notion of time operated through my dissertation.
24:20
So I, I really found for, for my dissertation,
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I was fascinated with the methodology of critical discourse analysis.
24:29
I really wanted to sort of understand what was happening in these texts.
24:33
As someone that lives with a disability and has done quite a bit of work in this field.
24:36
I'm always fascinated by how disability is produced and reproduced through language,
24:40
how we see disability, how disability is constructed.
24:44
And I really wanted to explore that.
24:45
So that's kind of you know, in a nutshell, what my,
24:49
what my PhD looked at.
24:51
And it emerged over time, I was in the beginning going to talk to
24:56
service users and attendants of the program.
24:58
But as I dove into my coursework and really started to ask deeper questions,
25:04
this, the critical discourse analysis was sort of the methodology that I chose to,
25:10
to carry out my work.
25:12
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. I don't know what else to say here.
25:17
Now in 2016, you and Doctor Mahadeo Sagi, I hope I'm pronouncing his name correctly.
25:25
Co-authored a landmark book published by Elsevier called Creating
25:35
a culture of accessibility in the sciences.
25:41
That is a 25 chapter volume that has been cited over 208 times,
25:49
including in publications like Nature Reviews Chemistry.
25:57
What inspired you to write that book, and why is accessibility in Stem such a
26:06
critical issue that needed a resource of that scale?
26:13
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. So at the time I was working with Doctor Tzu Chi at the National Educational
26:19
Association of Disabled Students, and we were working on some practical guides
26:24
that could be used for faculty and teaching assistants around how to support students
26:28
with disabilities in science labs and in other practical spaces.
26:31
So when I say practical spaces, I mean co-op placements,
26:35
work placements, work integrated learning.
26:38
You know, the Mahadeo is, is a geneticist and has a lot of experience,
26:44
extensive experience in science and was really interested in this topic.
26:48
I was interested more from the perspective of the practical spaces piece.
26:53
I had applied to a professional program in 2012 or sorry,
26:57
2010 that I got into, but ultimately decided not to pursue because
27:03
at the time the, the program chair was very concerned about how would carry out the co-op
27:10
placements of someone who was blind.
27:12
And so at the time, I didn't sort of push, I just applied to ultimately to Western where
27:17
I did my master's. But that was what sparked my interest in co-authoring the book.
27:22
And also hearing many stories through my work at the National Educational Association of
27:27
Disabled students from students with disabilities navigating sort of the practical
27:32
spaces that accompany the classroom learning.
27:35
So that book really came out of you know, those,
27:39
those conversations. And I also want to acknowledge there was many contributors as
27:44
well to the book who wrote about their own experiences in quite a lot of detail.
27:48
So it was a wonderful way to connect with different faculty.
27:53
So I think, I think why it's important is I, there's a lot of,
27:58
I think we don't know what we don't know. And I think the book does a really nice job of
28:01
unpacking. What are some of the concerns around being in the lab?
28:05
We have a lot of conversations in the book around bona fide essential requirements.
28:09
So, you know, what is the ultimate requirement of a course of an assignment?
28:14
Can it be done in only one way?
28:16
If so, why? If not, why not?
28:20
So there was a lot of conversations around disclosure,
28:22
which is another topic that I've written extensively about.
28:25
So I think it was an opportunity to talk about Stem or now we would say Stem science,
28:30
technology, engineering, arts and math.
28:33
But also to talk about these conversations more broadly.
28:36
And it really, I think, sparked my interest in disability activism in
28:42
writing. And ultimately the career path I took.
28:48
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Balance for blind adults in Toronto has been a real anchor in your career.
28:58
You have held so many roles there as assistive technology instructor for one
29:06
community. Community engagement lead as an accreditation lead,
29:13
social enterprise team member, and now pre employment specialist.
29:21
Can you walk our listeners through what balance does and why that organization has
29:29
been so important to you personally and professionally.
29:35
And I do remember the late Tom Dekker.
29:38
That's how I met him through balance.
29:41
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. Absolutely. So balance for blind adults is not for profit here in Toronto,
29:47
Ontario, Canada. That provides support to adults living with who are blind or living
29:53
with low vision or partially sighted in a range of areas.
29:57
So balance has a large assistive technology program,
30:02
so providing supports to individuals who wish to learn whether it's a screen reader or
30:07
magnification or learn how to use their laptop for work.
30:11
Our assistive assistive technology program is,
30:14
you know, available in person to folks that live in Toronto and then Ontario wide to
30:19
folks who are outside of Toronto and want remote lessons or able to have remote
30:24
lessons. Balance also provides orientation and mobility as well as adaptive daily living
30:30
skills, but also has a large suite of group programs,
30:35
including a strength and stability class a number of programs to do with mental health
30:41
support. So there are two social workers that have lived experience of disability who run
30:46
peer support programs and individual counseling.
30:49
So that's a huge part of what balance does.
30:52
You know, of course, there's the pre-employment program,
30:55
which is the program I run.
30:56
And ultimately that program aims to provide individuals that want to start looking for
31:02
work, the skills to do so.
31:04
So we prepare people to start looking for work,
31:08
to think about starting to work with an employment service provider.
31:11
Our curriculum is really built around helping individuals get to know themselves,
31:15
get to know their skills, learn the technology that they're going to
31:18
need to be successful in the workplace, as well as connect to community resources and
31:22
employment service providers.
31:23
So our program is a five week program.
31:25
It's on Zoom. And individuals who are thinking about entering the workforce,
31:31
or maybe re-entering the workforce that want to build some of those pre-employment skills.
31:36
You know, are welcome to join the program right now. It's in the GTA,
31:40
but we're hoping to expand the program.
31:43
I think for me, one of the things that I love to see is somebody that comes in is unsure of
31:49
what they want to do as, as an individual living with blindness or
31:53
partial sight. And then at the end of the program has a really good sense of the path
31:56
they want to take.
31:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: His balance, a provincial organization or national.
32:04
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. So right now, balance for blind adults offers in-person support in,
32:11
in Toronto for orientation and mobility, assistive technology,
32:16
adaptive daily living skills, as well as our groups that we have.
32:21
We have a number of groups Ontario wide for mental health supports.
32:26
So that would be, you know, our peer support program called Sharing
32:29
Spaces, as well as counseling, individual counseling,
32:33
and then assistive technology.
32:34
So those are the two supports that are offered sort of province wide and they would
32:39
be remote offerings.
32:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is balance planning to go national one day?
32:45
Elizabeth Mohler: I don't know. You'll have to stay tuned.
32:49
No.
32:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I always I've always wondered this, you know,
32:52
like you offer a plethora of services and you know,
32:56
it'll be nice to see you go national one day.
32:59
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, absolutely.
33:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, as an assistive technology instructor at balance.
33:07
Okay. You know, tell us about some of the things that,
33:13
that you've, you've done and, you know, things that you would like to see
33:18
continue on.
33:20
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. I've taught, you know, a lot of people who are new to whether it's
33:27
an iPhone or a smart home device or a laptop.
33:33
New to it as somebody with sight loss.
33:35
So they might have, they might have used technology prior to sight loss and then
33:40
they're coming back to it.
33:41
I think for me, what I love is those moments where somebody gets really excited,
33:46
they see the potential of technology, they are starting to understand how they
33:49
might use it in their daily lives, or they've gone from sort of being afraid of
33:54
making a mistake to recognizing that they can troubleshoot their way out of a mistake.
34:00
What I love to see is the excitement because there is so much potential,
34:04
as we know, for technology use not just for folks with disabilities,
34:10
but more broadly. And I'd love to see conversations happening where people are
34:15
really excited about the technology that they're using because it is a game changer.
34:19
We know that technology is a game changer for for our community.
34:24
Absolutely. But again, it comes back to being able to talk about our
34:28
technology, what we need and understand how, how what we need you know,
34:36
is impacted in our daily lives.
34:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Elizabeth, if you could dream and look forward to the future,
34:45
I know that one of the things that that really bothers me or concerns me or something
34:52
I'm continuing to work on is access.
34:55
Access to online education, online exams.
34:59
What are your thoughts on this?
35:03
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, the online world and we we saw this during the pandemic really opened up
35:08
opportunities for people to engage with whether it's post-secondary,
35:13
whether it's employment, whether it was you know,
35:16
volunteer or training opportunities.
35:19
I think one of the. Yeah, for sure.
35:21
One of the biggest barriers remain sort of accessibility to,
35:24
to content. I feel hopeful, though.
35:27
I think there's a lot more conversations, whether it's because of the Accessible Canada
35:31
Act or here in Ontario.
35:33
You know, we know that the the Aoda has been around for 20 plus years,
35:37
and there's still a ways to go, but I am seeing more conversations.
35:41
So, for example, at Western where where I just finished my PhD,
35:46
there's been a lot of conversations around how to build accessibility into course
35:50
content online, into classroom design, into learning module design.
35:54
So I'm starting to see those conversations and I'm hopeful. And I think a lot of it is,
35:58
is really thinking about taking a universal design approach.
36:01
So building things in from the start that are going to impact and benefit everybody.
36:06
I do think that online learning, like Open University,
36:08
for example, is a, a great, a great resource for people that want to take
36:14
any number of courses online and you can do it from anywhere.
36:18
But I think, again, it's important to recognize that, you know, online learning is
36:22
one approach and it works for some people and not for others.
36:25
So I, I think that it's really about thinking holistically about the learner and about the
36:30
learning experience.
36:32
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because one size does not fit all.
36:34
It doesn't mean because you or I, you know, are able to deal with a cell phone,
36:38
for example, that Eleanor next door should be able to do the same.
36:43
You know, like she may be afraid, she may she may be saying to herself,
36:47
oh, this is not for me.
36:48
It's too intimidating.
36:50
Right? So with the clock winding down, my final question to you is this what are
36:58
your hopes and dreams for the future with regard to a education?
37:03
And I think you've answered a lot of that before and be accessible services for those
37:09
needing it.
37:11
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. We'll start with the education.
37:14
My hopes and dreams for the future.
37:17
I'd like to apply for a postdoc.
37:20
You know, within a disability studies program or one adjacent to a health and rehab science
37:26
program. I'd like to do some co-design work to look at the experiences of young adults.
37:33
So 18 to 35 with disabilities residing in long term care,
37:38
and how individuals that are residing in these spaces who are young adults might
37:44
reimagine their care and how those individuals share their care story and how we
37:51
can learn from their care stories.
37:52
So doing some co-design work with that community.
37:56
And we're seeing there was a report that came out from the Ontario Ombudsman in December
38:01
that talked about the number of young adults with with physical disabilities in long term
38:06
care, as well as intellectual disabilities.
38:08
And it's a population that's very near and dear to my heart because of my own family and
38:13
something I want to explore.
38:15
So I will be applying for postdocs and you know,
38:18
hoping for a positive outcome in terms of accessibility for services.
38:22
Like I think it's such a broad question, but I think what I would say is I wish that
38:28
there was more. And I'm glad to see some, but I hope it continues education around
38:34
disability, around systemic ableism, institutional ableism within post-secondary
38:41
curriculum. So whether that's in education for teachers,
38:44
whether that's for social workers, whether that's for nurses and doctors and
38:49
speech language pathologists.
38:50
So not just looking at this contract construct of disability as something that
38:56
needs to be fixed or cured, but really embedding sort of anti ableism
39:00
work into curriculum. And that's what I'm passionate about and that's what I hope to
39:03
see.
39:05
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now. Do you think your your future studies would,
39:09
you know, have you stay in Canada or do you think you might have to travel across the
39:14
pond?
39:16
Elizabeth Mohler: Great question. I definitely plan to stay here in Toronto.
39:20
I have my community here, my coil of support here,
39:23
and I love Toronto. But the wonderful thing is,
39:25
you know, there's a number of post-secondary institutions, obviously right here within
39:29
Toronto, but also, you know, adjacently close.
39:33
So if I had to take a train, it wouldn't be wouldn't be too bad.
39:35
I mean, I commuted to London during my my PhD and it wasn't too bad.
39:39
So yeah, that's my plan for now.
39:41
I think I'll be staying staying in Toronto.
39:45
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But what if someone offered you a golden opportunity to study across the pond?
39:49
Would you go?
39:51
Elizabeth Mohler: Great question. I hadn't, you know, not one I'd thought of.
39:56
I think I'd have to consider.
39:57
There's a lot of factors to consider with, with moving anywhere and yeah,
40:03
I would have to really look at the opportunity and you know,
40:07
the, the length and just where I'm at in my own,
40:09
my own career journey.
40:11
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But you're not adverse to, to really, you know,
40:13
like, if you were given this wonderful opportunity and I know that,
40:17
you know, there's so many other factors for you to consider.
40:21
Would you go?
40:22
Elizabeth Mohler: I might, yeah, I might.
40:27
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Elizabeth, this has been a very fascinating interview and one where I'm hoping and I know
40:34
that our listeners would be very much encouraged,
40:38
motivated to reach for the stars because you've reached for the stars,
40:43
you've done it. You're on your way.
40:45
You are future. You keep it up.
40:48
And it was a pleasure, real pleasure having you.
40:51
Elizabeth Mohler: Thank you for having me, and I hope you have a lovely rest of your
40:54
day.
40:55
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You too, and good luck with your board interview tonight.
40:58
Elizabeth Mohler: Thank you.
40:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, take care now.
41:00
Elizabeth Mohler: Bye bye.
41:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye.
41:04
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at donnajodhan@gmail.com.
41:11
Until next time.