Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 790: Everyday Trauma: Remapping the Brain's Response to Stress with Dr. Tracey Shors

Transcript

Episode 790: Everyday Trauma: Remapping the Brain's Response to Stress with Dr. Tracey Shors · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:10
  Right. Welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gamiferson.
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  My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to be human,
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  to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer in
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  who we are is more important than what we know, and this requires cultivating
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  authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more
• 0:33
  about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot com.
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  That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started. Here we go
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  five four, three, two and one. Our folks, welcome back to
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  the podcast. I am very excited to have as my guest today, Doctor
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  Tracy Shor's Tracy welcome, Thank you, nice to be here. Awesome.
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  So. Doctor Shores is a distinguished professor in Behavioral and Systems neuroscience in the
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  Department of Psychology and the Center for Collaborative Neuroscience at Rutgers University. She has
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  about one hundred fifty scientific publications and has recently written a popular book titled Everyday.
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  Trauma Research Program studies how our brains ruminate on trauma related memories and how
• 1:19
  this process can interfere with our everyday lives while making still more memories. Doctor
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  Schortz is also focused on identifying effect of tools for reducing repetitive thoughts that reinforce
• 1:30
  our everyday traumas. Our brain fitness program known as MAP that's MAP Trained My
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  Brain combines mental and physical training with silent meditation and aerobic exercise to decrease trauma
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  related and competitive thoughts, as well as symptoms of depression and anxiety. WHOA,
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  that's a lot. That's a lot, but very impressive. Thank you
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  so much for being here today. Yeah, you're very welcome. Before we
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  get going, Tracy share with the listeners where you're from originally and where you
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  are currently. Originally, I actually lived all over the country and to some
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  extent, the world, because my dad traveled a lot when I was young.
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  I I was born in Illinois, but I lived in Alabama. I
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  lived in Connecticut, I lived in Belgium. I lived in California, but
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  I've been in New Jersey for like more than twenty years, closer to thirty.
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  Actually, awesome, Awesome, I think I'm almost like a native now.
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  Yeah, awesome. So look, your bio is crazy, the impressive
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  of what you do. How did you get to this point. What started
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  this interest in the work you do? I mean I was always interested in
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  science. My brother's a scientist, and so I had my dad's an engineer,
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  so you know, I kind of grew up in a very science oriented
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  family. And then you know, coupled with that, I was just interested
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  in people, like why they do what they do and so fascinating. And
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  you know, back when I went to school, it was a little bit
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  more difficult to merge those two, to merge uh kind of biology and science
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  with psychology, and so I majored and eate both. I majored in biology
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  and psychology, and then at some point I went back to graduate school and
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  majored in what it was then called physiological psychology. I mean, now we
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  would call it behavioral neuroscience. Yeah, so that's what I've kind of how
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  I got into it. Okay, so from there, what did you What
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  positions did you take early on? In terms of employment. I was at
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  USC for a long time, at University of Southern California. That's where I
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  got my pH d. And then I actually was really fortunate I met a
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  really esteemed professor scientist by the name of Richard Thompson. I just serendipitous,
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  you know. I met him on the way to go to the bathroom he
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  once. So I always telling my students, you know, like go for
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  it because I saw him, I knew of him, and I was like,
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  should I talk to him? And I was like, yeah, I'm
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  going to talk to him. And so anyway, he eventually offered me a
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  job, a postdoctoral fellowship in his lab, and so that really, you
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  know, kind of catapulted my my career because he was super well known,
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  but also, you know, we had similar interests and views on the things.
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  But anyway, I worked for him for a long time, and then
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  I went to Princeton for a while. I worked there for seven or eight
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  years, and then I moved to Rutgers. Wow, so when and how
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  did your interest blossom in the field of trauma subject of trauma. Yeah,
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  I mean when I was working for this person, I started working on stress
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  and how stress affects memory more at the kind of what we would call like
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  a labs you know, situation, So looking under the microscope or recording from
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  neurons and trying to see like how does the brain at a cellular level response
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  to stress and trauma. We would call it stress. You know, these
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  are laboratory studies obviously, So I did that for a long time, and
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  at some point, like in the nineties, I became interested in looking at
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  female brains. You know, at that time, no one was really looking
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  at female brains. Almost all the laboratory studies were done in male brains.
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  Interesting. Yeah, so they were like, what was the reasons for that?
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  Well, I mean they thought that that the female brain was just a
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  male brain with some estrogen, you know, kind of thrown in okay,
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  which is ironic because it's really the opposite. You know, the default really
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  is the female and then exposure to stosterone is what differentiates the male and the
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  female brain. But anyway, it was also I think the people scientists thought
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  that the estras cycle, which is like a menstrual cycle, would would contribute
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  to variability. It just became it just became the status quo. And so
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  at some point I thought I would look at female brains. I had heard
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  something unusual about them, and we found a completely ridiculously interesting I think phenomena
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  where if you stress, these are in rodents. You know, these are
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  rats. So if you stressed a male they would learn better, and if
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  you stressed a female, they couldn't learn. And so it wasn't just that
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  they were different, they were actually you know, responding in opposite directions.
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  So I actually investigated that for a long time and and found that, you
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  know, it's accompanied by these different responses at the cellular level, at the
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  anatomical level, at the connections between neurons. Yeah, so, you know,
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  I and one of the reasons I was so intrigued by this line of
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  research was that we know that women are much more susceptible to stress and trauma
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  related experiences. You know, they're much more likely to have post traumatic stress
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  disorder. You know, women are diagnosed three times as much as men with
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  PTSD, They're twice as likely to be diagnosed with depression, they're much more
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  likely to be diagnosed with anxiety. Obviously, eating disorders are super prevalent in
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  women. So you know, I kind of started thinking, maybe that's part
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  of it. You know, that the brain is just inherently different and it's
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  responding to these experiences in such a way that they become like vulnerable to these
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  these disorders. So what is it specifically that differentiates or uh maybe allows the
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  female brain to be more receptive to stress. God, I wish I knew.
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  I mean, there's there's so many things, you know, Like I
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  think now twenty years later, more than that. Actually, now there's a
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  much more work on the differences between the male and female brain. In fact,
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  the National Institute of Health has mandated it so that every experiment now that's
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  done has to have both sexes unless you have a good reason not to.
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  Wow. So now it's like kind of burgeoning out of control. Like there's
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  so many differences that are being documented. So I don't think it's just one
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  thing. And I also want to be careful because it's not necessarily that that
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  we're born differently, although we are. There are some changes that are even
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  a detectable in utero in humans, so while you're still in the womb.
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  But then our experience also changes our brain, right, how we're treated,
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  how we respond to how we're treated, and so the differences are many,
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  but the causes there are as just just as many. Now let's just kind
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  of take a pause here, and I want to ask you how you define
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  trauma, because we've been using kind of the word stress and you've been implying,
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  well, I think the implication has been that, you know, maybe
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  it's not a continuum, right, and on the fore edge of the continue
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  will beginning to trauma. How do you define trauma? Yeah, you know,
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  my book is entitled every Day Trauma, So I've actually heard thought about
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  this a lot. You know, trauma is the response. You know,
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  sometimes people think of trauma as the experience or the event, but it really
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  is the response to the event. You know. One way to think of
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  it is it's it causes damage. You know, the trauma comes from the
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  word wound, which kind of means, oh, there's there's been a wound,
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  there's been some kind of damage. And so I kind of like that
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  way of thinking about trauma. You know, stress is doesn't have to cause
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  damage necessarily. We have all kinds of stressors in our lives. You know,
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  even good things are stressful. They cause a stress response in our body.
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  And so it is to some extent a continuum. You know, you
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  go from something being moderately or not that stressful to being very stressful, and
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  it's very stressful. Then it starts to get into the the trauma. You
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  know, world trauma, I think, to some extent has long lasting repercussions
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  more so than stress. You know, many things that are stressful we kind
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  of forget. Trauma tends to to to kind of activate those memory systems in
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  our brain more so more so than a stress, a stressor so you know,
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  everything that's traumatic is also stressful, but everything that's stressful is not necessarily
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  traumatic. I mean, there are, as you I'm sure are well aware
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  of, there are a lot of different definitions, especially now in our culture.
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  I mean, some people say anything that is disruptive can be traumatizing whatever.
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  I mean, people can have their own definitions. But the one that
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  I think I'm pretty well familiar with and it has a certain element to it,
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  and I want to ask you about it, and that is that trauma
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  is an experience that so disrupts our nervous system and it kind of shakes our
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  world in a sense. How does that land for you? Yeah, I
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  mean I think that's a good way of like describing it in terms that people
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  can understand. I do, but you know, I also like to think,
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  well we could find a way to kind of describe it more mechanistic,
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  like what is it? You know, what is that threshold when something becomes
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  destabilizing? To the point where it's you know, you become dysfunctional. I
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  mean, in my book is entitled every Day Trauma, and I do go
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  into some detail about how to think about that word. You know, we
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  often think of trauma trauma experiences as these big events. You know, you
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  have this big event, it's an earthquake, it's a rape, it's a
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  violent attack, something like that, and then you have these repercussions and those
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  can go on day after day. So that's in a way in everyday trauma.
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  Right The event itself is acute and short, but the repercussions and our
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  memories and our feelings and our emotions, those are maybe every day we think
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  about it. And then there's other traumas that really do do last every day
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  or conceivably every day. Discrimination, poverty, homelessness, you know, chronic
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  illness, taking care of someone who's chronically ill. You know, those are
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  also everyday traumas. So I don't think there's you know, one really clear
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  definition. I also agree with, you know, some experts in the field
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  who say, we can't lame call everything trauma, you know, just because
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  we don't like it or just because it bothers us. It's it's not necessarily
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  traumatic, so I agree with that, but it's very personal. You know,
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  you ask somebody and someone gonna have almost what seems like the same experience,
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  and one person's like, Eh, no big deal, and another person's
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  like, wow, I have never gotten over the right. Let me just
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  positive from it. We're speaking with doctor Tracy Shores that we're going to be
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  talking about her her book every Day Trauma, Remapping the Brain's response to stress,
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  anxiety, and Painful Memories for a Better Life. Let's pause here to
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  thank our sponsors. All right, so talking about this book here. Why
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  did you write the book? Why did I write the book? I'll tell
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  you. I you know, as I mentioned, and I had a laboratory
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  for many years, successful laboratory. You know, did a lot of I
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  think important things. And you know, at some point I was like,
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  wow, I just can't keep all this information to myself. You know,
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  are my peers. It's just I feel like people should know more about how
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  the brain actually works. You know, we have lots of interventions and therapies
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  and what have you. But you know, I'm always surprised how little people
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  know about their own brain. I mean, it's our brain. It makes
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  us who we are, it makes us everything. It's our memories, it's
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  how we feel, it's how we think, it's how we stay alive.
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  So you know, part of it was just like, yeah, I just
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  wanted people to know more about the brain. I also wanted to emphasize the
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  difference between them email and Maile brain. I feel like maybe people didn't appreciate
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  the differences that really exist. You know, one of my big interests now
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  is sexual violence. The interest is a good word for it, but I'm
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  just you know, distressed by it. But there's so much sexual violence,
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  and so another reason I kind of started going down this road was to talk
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  more about how sexual violence affects women and to help them overcome it. So,
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  yeah, how did you structure the book? Let's talk a little bit
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  about because one of the things I want to get to is you mentioned this
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  aspect of repetitive thought, repetitive memories and so forth. So let's kind of
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  get there, but give us a broad scope of how you structure the book
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  and why you did it that way. Yeah, I mean it's really three
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  parts. So the first part is more what I would call psychology, you
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  know, kind of basic psychology. You wouldn't stress. What is trauma?
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  You know, what are the what are the various types of experiences we could
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  have, and what are the various outcomes? You know, what kind of
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  what kind of mental illnesses are associated with stress, what are the symptoms of
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  those? Kind of like a general overview of that world. And then the
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  middle part is more neuroscientific. I would say, you know, I get
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  into a little bit more about how memories are made in the brain, traumatic
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  memories, but just memories in general. And I do talk quite a bit
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  about neurogenesis. You know. One of the things that I was involved with
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  early on was this the production of new neurons in the brain, the discovery
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  that the brain continues to make ne neurons, and so I do talk a
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  lot about these new neurons and how we can make more of them and keep
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  them alive, you know, through learning, and so that's it's kind of
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  more about the cellular aspects of stress and trauma. Neurogenesis is also very much
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  affected by stress and trauma. So people that are stressed or have PTSD or
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  depressed, you know, they make well, we don't know for sure if
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  they make fewer of these cells, but certainly the place where these cells are
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  made is smaller. They hip a canvas, which is where they're made.
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  So I kind of just describe kind of the basics. I don't think it's
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  too technical, but it's you know, got a little more, a little
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  more detail. And then the last part is more about recovery from trauma.
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  One of the things that I've also been doing over the last decade or so
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  is developing this intervention. I call it MAP Train my Brain, and MAP
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  stands for Mental and Physical and I really developed it based on this work on
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  neurogenesis, because you know, we had to discovered that these neurons are made
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  in the brain throughout your life. You know, most people didn't. We
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  didn't even know that we continue to make neurons in adulthood. So once they
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  were discovered, people wanted to know what are they doing? Why do we
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  have these new neurons? And it turns out they're involved in memory, in
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  learning new things. And one of the more amazing things I think about these
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  cells is that you that many of them die unless you learn something new,
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  So it's kind of a use it or lose it. You're you're making these
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  cells, and that if you learn something new, they stay alive and then
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  they become incorporated and you know, into the rest of your brain. But
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  the learning has to be effortful. It has to be something that you really
• 18:44
  concentrate on, something you really put you know, your kind of your heart
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  and soul so to speak into you're really paying attention. And then another lab
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  in California had shown that you could make more of these cells with exercise of
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  the robic exercise. So I had this idea, Well, what if we
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  combine those two, you know, make more selves through a robic exercise and
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  then keep them alive through some kind of mental training. And yeah, no
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  mental training is meditation, you know, the exercise of the aerobic Okay,
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  I'm going to ask what I'm going to ask what I think is it feels
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  like a stupid question, but what's the purpose of doing this? Of creating?
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  Well creating, I mean, what's the purpose of the neurogenesis? What's
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  the purpose of creating these new neurons? Oh, what's the purpose? I
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  mean I can understand the purpose of learning new stuff, but obviously that that
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  learning new stuff creates new neurons. What's how does that benefit us? Well,
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  it's always good to have more new neurons. Seriously, I mean there's
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  no situation. I mean, there might be a few unusual, very rare,
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  unusual circumstances where you would make neurons that you don't want, But in
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  general, do you want more neurons in your brain? You know, they
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  have they make connections to other neurons. They're just yeah, it's like saying
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  like, do you want more blood cells? Yeah, you want more blood
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  cells. You know. So they're just like they're just basic building blocks of
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  our of our brain. But you know, since we did those early studies,
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  there's lots more information on them now and they do seem to be really
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  important for for maintaining a functioning brain, you know, memory systems, for
• 20:33
  being healthy, for being able to concentrate. You're just things that that we
• 20:37
  maybe take for granted, but if you really think about it, Yeah,
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  you have to have a substrate for this behaviors. You know, you have
• 20:42
  to have something that that doesn't and these neurons are part of that part of
• 20:48
  that system. So talk a little bit about what happens to the brain when
• 20:53
  someone experiences trauma. Well, there's so many things you know, during the
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  traumatic experience, itself. You know, there's a big stress response the sympathetic
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  nervous system, you know, where your heart beats really fast and you release
• 21:11
  lots of epinephrine into into the bloodstream and neurotransmitters into the brain. I mean,
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  there's hardly anything that doesn't well, I shouldn't say that, but there's
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  not much that doesn't change when you are under a lot of stress in the
• 21:27
  brain. Like if you put an a lot dround down into the brain during
• 21:30
  a stressful experience, the cells are firing, more, neurotransmitters are being released,
• 21:36
  hormones are being released, which is changing all kinds of you know,
• 21:38
  systems in the brain. So it's a big experience, and you know,
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  that's partly why we remember it so well, because it's changed so many you
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  know, systems that we depend upon. A lot of people listening to this
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  are therapists of all kinds, people in the mental health space, survivors are
• 21:59
  coming of the two. What do you feel it's important that they know about
• 22:03
  your book? What's kind of take? Yeah, I think one of the
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  things is that it's not I don't think it's too technical. I think there's
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  accessible information in there that could help one of the things that you kind of
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  mentioned is is I talk a lot about ruminations. You know, ruminations are
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  these repetitive thoughts that all of us have. Women are particularly prone to ruminations.
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  They're they're usually negative, they're always autobiographical, so they're about yourself,
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  and they're usually associated with blame or regret. I like to think of them
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  as memories laced with mood, right, because they are a form of memory
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  since you repeat them, but they have this mood, kind of mood attached
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  to them, and they're really detrimental actually, because when you're ruminating, you're
• 22:56
  not thinking about other things that are my, be important. You know that
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  you've gotten all the information out of that thought, but you keep going back,
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  and that's you know, that's what to ruminate means, like to chew
• 23:11
  on something like a cow chewing on the cut and the nutrients are gone and
• 23:17
  you're still chewing. So it's you know, good analogy for rumination. But
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  the other thing that I think that's interesting to know about these thoughts is that
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  anytime you have a memory, or bring back a memory so to speak,
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  you create another memory, right because that memory that you brought to this present
• 23:38
  moment now becomes associated with this moment. So if I bring back a memory
• 23:45
  of, you know, my uncle right now, I've made another memory of
• 23:48
  my uncle here with you. And that's a benign example. But you can
• 23:53
  imagine if you're always bringing back these negative memories, you're making more of these
• 23:59
  traces in your brain. So ruminations, you know, they're distressing, they're
• 24:06
  distracting, et cetera, et cetera, but they're also changing the brain.
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  And you know, one of the things that we we have been giving this
• 24:17
  intervention that I have just map trained my brain intervention out in the world to
• 24:21
  many people, mostly women with trauma. And one of the outcomes that we
• 24:26
  see in every single study that we've done is fewer ruminations. So people say,
• 24:33
  oh, I don't ruminate as much anymore, and then you know,
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  when you don't ruminate as much anymore, then that's associated with less depression,
• 24:41
  less anxiety, fewer traumatic thoughts. We just actually finished the study with women
• 24:48
  who had sexual violence. Everyone I had PTSD. All the women had PTSD
• 24:55
  when we started, and they went through this program twice a week for six
• 25:00
  weeks. It's just went out train my brain. It's thirty minutes of meditation
• 25:06
  followed by thirty minutes of aerobic exercise. They also learn a little bit about
• 25:11
  the brain along the way, And afterwards, the women had forty percent fewer
• 25:19
  symptoms of PTSD according to DSM criteria. So that's a lot. Yeah,
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  that's a lot. More than half were no longer they no longer met criteria
• 25:33
  for PTSD, and they were ruminating a lot less, you know. So
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  I think sometimes, you know, we look for like these really complicated answers
• 25:48
  or even interventions to help people. Sometimes it you know, a little knowledge,
• 25:52
  you know, coupled with some this is obviously some mental training, coupled
• 25:56
  with some some exercise, arobic exercise, getting the heart rate up. I
• 26:02
  don't know, I mean, I don't even know exactly why it works so
• 26:04
  well, but it does work. Well. That's very interesting. Yes,
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  And there are you mentioned interventions. I mean, as you know, there
• 26:15
  are slew of interventions out there, modalities out there. What are your thoughts
• 26:18
  on all of these interventions and modalities. Yeah, I mean, if you
• 26:26
  really break it down, they're probably not that different from each other. And
• 26:30
  some of these things have been going on for you know, thousands of years.
• 26:32
  People these tools to help themselves. I mean, I guess, you
• 26:36
  know, generally my philosophy and I some m talk about this in my book,
• 26:41
  particularly at the end, it's like get as many tools as you can,
• 26:45
  you know, like everything's not going to be tailor made to each person
• 26:48
  and there's not going to be one intervention that's going to help everyone. So
• 26:52
  you know, pick up these tools, learn new skills. It's really the
• 26:56
  skills, you know, it's not so much the intervention that's helping. Because
• 27:00
  even for the people that we help, you know, we'll ask them later,
• 27:04
  are you still doing it? Sometimes they're not, but they still learn
• 27:08
  these skills. So when something bad happens, they're like, yeah, I
• 27:12
  know that I should probably you know, sit in silence and count my breast
• 27:17
  for ten minutes and I'll feel better, or you know, go for a
• 27:21
  run, and you know, they capture these like little skills that they can
• 27:25
  use throughout their life. And I think that's true. Yeah, I mean,
• 27:30
  I feel like I'm let me just say one way to think about this.
• 27:34
  The brain loves to learn new things. It loves novelty. It really
• 27:38
  responds to novelty, So you know that's the key, Like get out there,
• 27:44
  learn new skills, expose yourself to new, new, new opportunities for
• 27:48
  learning. You know, that's kind of my philosophy. As we kind of
• 27:52
  wind down here, I appreciate you seeing you know, when you're talking about
• 27:56
  the results of that woman going through map, you're like, been sure why
• 28:02
  it works. I mean, I appreciate your honesty, but give us something.
• 28:06
  I mean, it's this mental meditation and physical It seems like we all
• 28:12
  can do that, right. It's not some wild modality, but take a
• 28:18
  shot. What is working there? Yeah, I mean I have theories out
• 28:22
  the kazoo, but okay, so one of my theories, of course,
• 28:26
  it relates to neurogenesis, that it's helping create and uh increasing survival of these
• 28:33
  neurons in the brain. But you know that's almost untestable. I do think
• 28:40
  one reason it might work is because when people are sitting in meditation, this
• 28:47
  is silent sitting meditation. It's hard, right, people don't often like to
• 28:52
  do guided meditation. So this is silent sitting meditation, and then followed by
• 28:56
  slow walking meditation. The heart rate is super you know, it's a very
• 29:00
  much a parasympathetic nervous system state, and so the brain is learning conceivably that
• 29:08
  when thoughts come up, traumatic thoughts, stressful thoughts, distressing memories, that
• 29:15
  oh, wait, just because I had that thought, my body is not
• 29:19
  racing, my heart is not racing. I'm not anxious. So you learn
• 29:22
  that, and then immediately after that you go into this aerobic exercise state,
• 29:29
  which is sympathetic. You know, the heart is going fast, over one
• 29:34
  hundred beats per minute, so but it's not full of fear. You know,
• 29:41
  usually when you're afraid your heart is racing, you associate that fearful experience,
• 29:47
  you know, with this feeling in your body. But in this case,
• 29:51
  particularly in my online course, you know, we have music. We're
• 29:55
  kind of like doing routines to the music. It's fun. You know,
• 30:00
  people generally think it's pretty fun. So again, you know, you're kind
• 30:03
  of learning, oh, just because I have this, my heart is racing,
• 30:07
  I'm not necessarily afraid. And you know, you might say, well,
• 30:11
  that sounds kind of simplistic, but that's how we learn. You know,
• 30:15
  we're learning to really associate what's happening in our body with our experience,
• 30:19
  like how we feel, and the brain has to be trained. It can't
• 30:25
  just pick this stuff up, you know, necessarily from a book or something.
• 30:29
  Sometimes you really have to get on there and just train the brain.
• 30:32
  Right, Which is which is I think what I don't want to say a
• 30:36
  lot, but may be several trauma treatment modalities do right, inviting the client
• 30:41
  to be in the moment, to be self aware, to be having those
• 30:45
  memories, and to know that they're safe in a sense. But why did
• 30:49
  you choose aerobic activity, Why not just walking or anaerobic activity or weight training.
• 30:56
  Well, a robic activity is the absolute best medicine for the brain.
• 31:03
  Like, the brain uses like twenty percent of the oxygen that we breathe in
• 31:07
  is used by the brain. So the brain needs lots of oxygen, and
• 31:11
  the best way to get oxygen is through exercise. Because the heart, when
• 31:15
  the heart beats fast, that blood goes right up your carotid arteries to your
• 31:19
  brain, you know. So yeah, it's you know, so if you
• 31:23
  want to consolidate memory or enhance brain structures, it's aerobic. It's got to
• 31:29
  be aerobic exercise. And it also increases neurogenesis, as I mentioned, increases
• 31:37
  blood flow, blood structures. It's just you know, it's just a very
• 31:41
  powerful stimulus for the brain. The name of the book is Everyday Trauma,
• 31:48
  Remapping the Brains that response to stress, anxiety and painful memories for better life.
• 31:52
  Doctor Tracy's shores phenomenal, I mean, so inspiring. Love to have
• 31:59
  you back. I mean, there's so much to talk about. I mean
• 32:01
  we didn't even touch your you know, your interest in sexual assault and violence
• 32:07
  against women. That's a whole different podcast. But thank you so much for
• 32:12
  being here. I mean, you're you're you're incredible. Thank you so much.
• 32:15
  I really appreciate it. I had so much fun and I'm just happy
• 32:19
  to get the message out any any way I can. All right, best
• 32:22
  way for people to get in contact with you is what you can contact me
• 32:27
  at map train my brain at gmail dot com. That's my Gmail, and
• 32:32
  I also have a website, map trainm brain dot com. And I even
• 32:37
  have a course I'm just uploading this week, so if someone's interested in taking
• 32:42
  it online, you know you can do it and any and even if you
• 32:45
  don't want to take my course, you can read about it on the website.
• 32:49
  Okay, we'll have all those links up here at the show notes page
• 32:52
  at the Trumpet therespodcast dot com. Thank you so much for greet, meeting
• 32:54
  you. Thank you so much, it's my pleasure a pepper. Are having
• 33:06
  a day at day, hasten to round looking