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Book Club: Gender Queer · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane
0:07
Speaker 1: Never told your protection of iHeart Radio, and welcome to
0:20
Speaker 1: another book club. Today we are reading the current most
0:25
Speaker 1: banned slash challenged book in America. You can see our
0:31
Speaker 1: recent I actually think it was a classic about banned books,
0:34
Speaker 1: where we updated at the top about of what's.
0:38
Speaker 2: Going on there.
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Speaker 1: Twenty nineteen's Gender Queer, a memoir by Maya Cobabe with
0:45
Speaker 1: colors by Phoebe Kobabe. It's a graphic novel that explores
0:49
Speaker 1: gender identity and Maya's own experience coming to terms with
0:53
Speaker 1: how he identifies. And yes, he uses emair pronouns, and
1:00
Speaker 1: we're going to try our best to get it right.
1:02
Speaker 1: It's not difficult. It's just kind of practicing.
1:05
Speaker 3: It's new for us, for us, for me else put
1:08
Speaker 3: that in my own mouth.
1:09
Speaker 1: It's new for me, and the book talks about that.
1:12
Speaker 1: The book talks about that. But let us know if
1:14
Speaker 1: we miss one, because we do want to get it right.
1:17
Speaker 1: But especially coming at as a young person and having
1:19
Speaker 1: all these questions, it's really heartfelt and open and honest.
1:23
Speaker 1: It's beautifully illustrated. It feels like you're reading a very open,
1:30
Speaker 1: sweet kind of look at somebody's life and there are
1:34
Speaker 1: questions that they have and trying to trying to find
1:37
Speaker 1: air selves and relating to other people, and it's just
1:40
Speaker 1: a very it's I don't know. After I read it,
1:44
Speaker 1: I felt so like I'd connected with someone.
1:47
Speaker 3: I would think that's the overall And I know that's
1:50
Speaker 3: what A said at the end of the book, is
1:52
Speaker 3: that when we'll get to it when it talks about
1:57
Speaker 3: Maya teaching, and A references to the fact that A
2:03
Speaker 3: can't doesn't have the courage to tell their own pronouns.
2:09
Speaker 3: But realizing how many young people were in the same
2:13
Speaker 3: similar position of being unfamiliar and unable to put into
2:17
Speaker 3: words how one might feel. So how important these these
2:22
Speaker 3: types of books are. And yeah, I when I was
2:25
Speaker 3: reading it, I was like, I feel like this might
2:28
Speaker 3: really connect with Annie. It's just like the familia wasn't
2:30
Speaker 3: necessarily the thing I specifically connected with, but it was
2:33
Speaker 3: so eye opening. It's one of those things that I
2:35
Speaker 3: feel like people should read to see an insight that's
2:38
Speaker 3: not about themselves, which we had a whole big discussion earlier,
2:42
Speaker 3: because yeah, I don't necessarily relate with what Maya is
2:46
Speaker 3: speaking about the confusion, like there's other confusions. I have
2:49
Speaker 3: my own identity with like racial and ethnicity and all
2:51
Speaker 3: of that. This is not one of my battles. But
2:55
Speaker 3: to see it and to read it and to see
2:58
Speaker 3: Maya's own experiences and the struggles they went through, it's
3:04
Speaker 3: really eye opening. Ab is so necessary again for those
3:10
Speaker 3: any of those who would want to say that their allies,
3:12
Speaker 3: anyone who wants to say they want to be supportive.
3:14
Speaker 3: This is types of books should be what we read
3:17
Speaker 3: in general, because even though you might think you know,
3:22
Speaker 3: you don't. And again, it's kind of like and like myself,
3:26
Speaker 3: I feel like you're going to find people. I'm like, oh,
3:28
Speaker 3: that's what these other individuals may be struggling with, Like
3:31
Speaker 3: that kind of level of openness. And yeah, it's also
3:35
Speaker 3: very sad, Like it's beautiful, but it really hurts my
3:37
Speaker 3: heart that Maya had to go through all of this.
3:40
Speaker 3: Kobabe had to go through all of this and still
3:42
Speaker 3: in this place of trying to undo or redo or
3:46
Speaker 3: relearn not only about themselves but about society as a whole,
3:49
Speaker 3: and then finding the support system. And it sounds like
3:51
Speaker 3: Kobab had a lot of good support in their alive,
3:54
Speaker 3: and I'm grateful for him to go through all of
3:56
Speaker 3: that to have even though still there was a lot
3:59
Speaker 3: of misunderstandings and back and forth. So of course nothing
4:04
Speaker 3: is perfect in society and itself. But yeah, this book
4:08
Speaker 3: is definitely something that I think everyone should read. I
4:10
Speaker 3: said that, I feel like turfs should definitely read this
4:13
Speaker 3: if you want to talk about why you might be
4:15
Speaker 3: questioning the validity of someone's identity.
4:20
Speaker 1: Yes, and it did. We're going to talk about it more.
4:23
Speaker 1: But when I was reading it, I was definitely like, oh,
4:26
Speaker 1: I see. I think that's the power of things like
4:29
Speaker 1: this is we don't talk about it enough, and we
4:34
Speaker 1: don't talk about sex education, we don't talk about gender identity,
4:39
Speaker 1: we don't talk about sexual orientation, and to have something
4:45
Speaker 1: like this, I am a thirty five I don't.
4:48
Speaker 2: Know how I I'm thirty five ish, you're old woman.
4:53
Speaker 1: And I was reading it like, oh, huh, I've never
4:59
Speaker 1: thought about it that or like that connects with me
5:01
Speaker 1: and I don't know why.
5:03
Speaker 3: And yes, well I love this too, because as I'm
5:06
Speaker 3: reading Kobabe's book and the memoir, I'm thinking, oh, we're
5:10
Speaker 3: close in the same age. I had a moment where
5:13
Speaker 3: because A are doing a timeline about when they when
5:17
Speaker 3: aar is in school and all of that, and I'm like, oh, yeah,
5:21
Speaker 3: I think we're around the same age. Oh that moment.
5:25
Speaker 3: But because A is learning so much about themselves still today,
5:29
Speaker 3: it makes me feel better at the same time because
5:31
Speaker 3: we are close in the same age. But yeah, when
5:35
Speaker 3: you were when you kind of look at the time,
5:36
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, because in my head with someone would
5:41
Speaker 3: that much experience to me they're older? Baby is not
5:46
Speaker 3: for me?
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Speaker 2: For me?
5:47
Speaker 3: For you? Yes for me?
5:48
Speaker 1: No now, And that kind of goes back to you know,
5:52
Speaker 1: we were talking about we have this assumption that I
5:55
Speaker 1: think a lot of us has internalized me too of
5:58
Speaker 1: you know, by a certain age, you've figured it out
6:00
Speaker 1: right and you have it clearly. This whole show is
6:05
Speaker 1: kind of like proof of that. But also it was
6:07
Speaker 1: really fun. We're going to talk about this at the end.
6:09
Speaker 1: But there were so many cultural references where I was like, yes,
6:13
Speaker 1: I'm right there. Yes, was brought in Supernatural or The Race?
6:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was so long. The part it was like
6:21
Speaker 3: so much fan fiction was brought into this. Any is
6:24
Speaker 3: having a field day?
6:25
Speaker 4: I did.
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Speaker 2: I was so happy.
6:27
Speaker 1: I was like, finally we're just talking about it, like
6:30
Speaker 1: how important it was for us.
6:32
Speaker 2: I love it. We're going to talk about that guaranteed.
6:39
Speaker 1: So yes, as we did mention in our book banning episode,
6:44
Speaker 1: the funny thing with banning books is that it draws
6:47
Speaker 1: more attention to these books. I'm totally not on board
6:50
Speaker 1: with banning books, but it is true, and libraries have
6:54
Speaker 1: reported the very long wait list they are getting for
6:57
Speaker 1: this one, and honestly, I'm not sure we would be
6:59
Speaker 1: reading it for this club.
7:01
Speaker 3: I've never heard of it until you brought it to
7:03
Speaker 3: my attention. That's being the most banded books. I'm like,
7:05
Speaker 3: a good job, y'all the best. It's kind of again
7:09
Speaker 3: we talked about how some authors are like, please put
7:11
Speaker 3: us on the band list. That's going to give us
7:13
Speaker 3: all the publicity.
7:15
Speaker 2: Yeah.
7:15
Speaker 1: It's so funny because I was like, we've talked about
7:19
Speaker 1: how it was the most banned book, and I was like,
7:21
Speaker 1: let me look into it, and then it said it
7:23
Speaker 1: was a graphic novel and it talks about fan fiction
7:25
Speaker 1: and asexuality.
7:26
Speaker 2: I was like, yes, that's it, we're talking about.
7:32
Speaker 1: It is So we've also done a book club on
7:34
Speaker 1: fun Home, which is a graphic novel about a queer experience,
7:40
Speaker 1: and that one's also been banned a lot, and I
7:42
Speaker 1: think the images part has a lot to do with this.
7:47
Speaker 1: Even though the style of this one is very I
7:50
Speaker 1: don't know how to phrase it. It's it's kind of
7:53
Speaker 1: like for a younger people.
7:55
Speaker 3: It's looked like a younger cartoon animation level.
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Speaker 1: And it's beautiful. But yes, it's definitely kind of feels
8:06
Speaker 1: like it's geared toward that demographic, which is great. But
8:11
Speaker 1: I think this part of why it's getting banned so much.
8:14
Speaker 3: I think the title in itself it's probably why. I
8:17
Speaker 3: don't think many of the people who've banned this book
8:19
Speaker 3: have looked even inside of it. They just are the
8:21
Speaker 3: war's gender and queer done out.
8:24
Speaker 1: Yep, well as what you talked about in that book
8:28
Speaker 1: banning episode. But yeah, most people openly like will say it,
8:32
Speaker 1: have never read the book.
8:33
Speaker 2: I don't know.
8:35
Speaker 1: And it is orchestrated by these conservative I mean, there's
8:40
Speaker 1: certainly it's not all that, but there are consort conservative
8:44
Speaker 1: organizations who are actively like, oh, here's a title I
8:48
Speaker 1: don't like, let's ban it. So just to keep that
8:51
Speaker 1: in mind. Also, politicians have we did which I feel
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Speaker 1: is indicative of how messed up this is. But they
9:00
Speaker 1: use words like grooming, the obscene, it's pornographic, things like that.
9:05
Speaker 1: But there's a bunch of people who have said, like
9:08
Speaker 1: weighed in on the opposite side, like here's a quote,
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Speaker 1: the treatment of sex and nudity is also not high
9:13
Speaker 1: in impact, and it is not exploitative, offensive, gratuitous, or
9:18
Speaker 1: very detailed. And we're going to talk about this more
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Speaker 1: at the end. But when I was thinking about this,
9:23
Speaker 1: there are so many books I read when I was
9:26
Speaker 1: really young that had like a lot of sexual assaults
9:30
Speaker 1: or violence or and no one raised a question about that. Right,
9:35
Speaker 1: it's when you're talking about something that could really benefit
9:40
Speaker 1: young people of how do you identify and exploring your
9:45
Speaker 1: gender identity, and that's when they're like, no.
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Speaker 2: We should we should ban this. This is not good.
9:51
Speaker 3: Right again, remember having we talked about in another episode,
9:56
Speaker 3: like magazines that had a lot of like sex rualized
10:00
Speaker 3: context and for like teenagers, and it was very readily available. Yeah,
10:06
Speaker 3: and here's a quote from Kobab. I drew as much
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Speaker 3: as I felt like I needed to tell the story
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Speaker 3: that I was trying to tell and get the points
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Speaker 3: across that I was trying to make, and I honestly
10:16
Speaker 3: think the book is a lot less explicit than it
10:18
Speaker 3: could be or would have been if written by a
10:20
Speaker 3: different author. The topic of gender touches on identity and
10:24
Speaker 3: touches on sexuality, and it touches on all of these things,
10:27
Speaker 3: and it's hard to fully explain. I think how a
10:29
Speaker 3: gender identity could impact every facet of life as an
10:32
Speaker 3: adult without touching at least a little bit on sexuality,
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Speaker 3: And so I wanted to not shy away from that,
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Speaker 3: and I did a great job, I feel like, because
10:42
Speaker 3: it was more of like the confusion of it being both.
10:46
Speaker 3: And I know you've talked about this aroused but not
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Speaker 3: sexually attracted to people individually, and that's the whole complication
10:54
Speaker 3: in itself. And I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. But yeah,
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Speaker 3: when we're talking about gender identity, and I believe conservative
11:02
Speaker 3: question people would say the same thing, because that's why
11:04
Speaker 3: they harp so much on heterosexuality, why that kind of
11:07
Speaker 3: sexuality is important. They talk about sexuality whether it is
11:11
Speaker 3: even if they are talking about wholesome, they're just talking
11:14
Speaker 3: about being wholesome as a heteronormative idea and nothing else really.
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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And I do think this is also like
11:23
Speaker 1: the very we've sexualized things so much, and we've just
11:28
Speaker 1: kept so much like you don't talk about it that
11:33
Speaker 1: something that shouldn't necessarily be sexualized or to the degree
11:38
Speaker 1: that you would ban it is being sexualized. But well, yeah,
11:44
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that more in a second. And I
11:46
Speaker 1: do think like that's one of the biggest things people
11:51
Speaker 1: ask me about is that they don't get They're like,
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Speaker 1: how can you It's clear that you can feel attraction,
12:00
Speaker 1: it's clear that you enjoy masturbating, and they don't get
12:04
Speaker 1: that it doesn't it's not it's towards like fictional characters.
12:10
Speaker 1: And even then it's like the sweetest like maybe I
12:12
Speaker 1: would kiss them.
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Speaker 2: Like it's not.
12:19
Speaker 3: And this is and this is a shot I want
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Speaker 3: on TikTok of you doing that little face as you said,
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Speaker 3: kiss them.
12:26
Speaker 1: Maybe we would cuddle.
12:30
Speaker 2: That's it. That's it. But yeah, we are going to
12:35
Speaker 2: talk about that. We are going to talk about that.
12:37
Speaker 2: I'm getting all flushed. The bear it's just.
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Speaker 1: All right, So the plot and this is kind of
12:55
Speaker 1: it's sort of all over the place because I was
12:57
Speaker 1: just like writing what was really connecting with me, but
13:00
Speaker 1: I really do recommend reading this book. It traces Maya's
13:04
Speaker 1: life with these questions, like all of the questions he
13:09
Speaker 1: had and how that impacted air life choices.
13:15
Speaker 2: So okay.
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Speaker 1: The book begins in twenty fourteen with Maya going off
13:20
Speaker 1: to college to get an MFA in comics. A teacher
13:24
Speaker 1: there convinces Maya to write an autobiography because it would
13:29
Speaker 1: be good for m and air creativity to write out
13:32
Speaker 1: their biggest secrets to confront their biggest demons. When writing
13:37
Speaker 1: these secrets out, Maya realizes they all have to do
13:41
Speaker 1: with gender, getting your periods, girly clothes, swimming bathing suits,
13:48
Speaker 1: things like that. E wrote a short comic about about
13:52
Speaker 1: all of these issues, but taped over them due to embarrassments,
13:57
Speaker 1: which reminds me of when I burned all of my journals.
14:01
Speaker 1: It's just a real shame. The story then jumps back
14:07
Speaker 1: to the past to nineteen ninety two, when Maya's family
14:10
Speaker 1: moved to northern California. The house didn't have working toilets,
14:16
Speaker 1: so Maya and the neighbor boy Galen, often peed outside
14:21
Speaker 1: to avoid the like spider infested outhouse, and the illustrations
14:25
Speaker 1: show the difference in peeing between the two of them.
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Speaker 1: So it's like a lot of these little memories of
14:30
Speaker 1: you know something, what are these roles we're playing? What
14:35
Speaker 1: are these differences? And Maya, not quite understanding them, are
14:39
Speaker 1: relating to them, right.
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Speaker 3: I feel like it's also the point of understanding that
14:43
Speaker 3: as youths being very young, it doesn't matter until it's
14:48
Speaker 3: introduced that has to matter.
14:49
Speaker 2: Yep.
14:50
Speaker 3: So Maya also loved snakes and requested snake themed items
14:54
Speaker 3: as often as possible. Mayan Galen didn't attend preschool or kindergarten,
14:59
Speaker 3: and they are first mingling with because their age in
15:01
Speaker 3: a social situation outside of their families devolved into a
15:04
Speaker 3: girls are not allowed because they have cootie's defense. Neither
15:08
Speaker 3: of them knew what a cootie was. Entering to school,
15:11
Speaker 3: Maya struggled with things like painting, painting, knitting, and reading.
15:17
Speaker 3: A did become the snake catcher of the school though.
15:20
Speaker 3: That was super cute.
15:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, I liked that a lot.
15:24
Speaker 1: And Maya sometimes got confused for a boy. A handful
15:28
Speaker 1: of other boys in the class had longer hair. This
15:30
Speaker 1: is like, again, it's just a bunch of small examples
15:33
Speaker 1: of and I say small, being like, if it's not you,
15:38
Speaker 1: then it seems small. It is a big deal, but
15:40
Speaker 1: it kind of these like, oh, I don't get why
15:44
Speaker 1: girls have longer hair boys have shorter hair, like just
15:47
Speaker 1: these questions. On a field trip to a beach after
15:50
Speaker 1: observing their dad taking off his shirt, Maya did too,
15:55
Speaker 1: wading into the water wearing only shorts, and some of
15:58
Speaker 1: the students called out, look, Maya's not wearing a shirt
16:01
Speaker 1: just like a boy, and Maya's teacher made Maya put
16:05
Speaker 1: it back on, even though Maya was confused by the
16:07
Speaker 1: whole thing and believed everyone else was being silly. And
16:12
Speaker 1: then there's like a really cool illustration that showcases how
16:17
Speaker 1: Maya's parents never enforced gingder norms, not on Maya nor
16:22
Speaker 1: on themselves. Air Mom being athletic, a green thumb, crafty,
16:27
Speaker 1: never wearing makeup, not shaving, and then air Dad, who's
16:33
Speaker 1: an an elitary school teacher, loved music and woodworking, being
16:37
Speaker 1: a mechanic, a jewelry maker, a rock collector, had long hair,
16:43
Speaker 1: so it was cool to see that illustrated. And then
16:48
Speaker 1: Maya details the last time E wore a bathing suit
16:52
Speaker 1: around air peers when in a hot tub, a confident
16:56
Speaker 1: classmate pulled her leg out of the water, and the
17:00
Speaker 1: water droplets just dripped neatly off of her freshly shaved legs.
17:05
Speaker 1: When Maya did it, the water collated on air shaved legs,
17:10
Speaker 1: and it annoyed Maya to encounter something else he didn't know.
17:15
Speaker 1: And that's a big theme of like not understanding.
17:20
Speaker 2: All of these things.
17:21
Speaker 1: Soon after he got air first period and related to
17:25
Speaker 1: the fictional character Alana the Lioness by two More Appears,
17:29
Speaker 1: which I also read, who disguised to herself as a
17:33
Speaker 1: boy to get by in this fictional world. The first
17:37
Speaker 1: time Alana got her period, she complained, how long do
17:40
Speaker 1: I have to put up with this? I didn't ask
17:42
Speaker 1: to be born a girl. It's not fair. Maya quote
17:48
Speaker 1: never thought it would happen to him. He hit it
17:51
Speaker 1: for three days. Her parents gave Emma gift to celebrate,
17:55
Speaker 1: but Maya saw no calls for celebration. And there's an
17:57
Speaker 1: illustration that hit really hard. Of all of the period
18:01
Speaker 1: related items like stain removers, acne paste, paying medications, depression
18:07
Speaker 1: sea pastes, all these things that don't sound like a
18:10
Speaker 1: fun time. Maya went on to hide air period refusing
18:16
Speaker 1: to use the school bathroom for two years. I'm wearing
18:19
Speaker 1: the same pad for hours and hours. Maya described nightmares
18:25
Speaker 1: about minstrel blood staining air leads. Bathrooms with outdoors are
18:31
Speaker 1: waiting in line while blood leaked through airpants. Later in
18:37
Speaker 1: the book, E discusses how he preferred biker shorts as
18:41
Speaker 1: underwear and pads weren't compatible, and turning to men's underwear.
18:46
Speaker 1: And this is something I was telling you right before, Samantha.
18:50
Speaker 1: I hated bra shopping and I cried when my mom
18:54
Speaker 1: told me I had to start wearing a bra. And
18:58
Speaker 1: a good friend of mine also kind of turned me
19:02
Speaker 1: on to you can wear men's underwear that might be
19:06
Speaker 1: more comfortable. You can wear men's shirts.
19:10
Speaker 2: Yeah.
19:10
Speaker 1: I remember being like in middle school and my friend
19:14
Speaker 1: being like, you could get something from here.
19:16
Speaker 2: It's like, I can't.
19:21
Speaker 1: There are several instances of questions around gender and identity
19:25
Speaker 1: over the years. E detailed getting air first bra and
19:29
Speaker 1: not wanting it at all, getting told he should shave
19:32
Speaker 1: by an ant and not understanding why boys didn't have to,
19:36
Speaker 1: and not wanting to because the hair was so soft.
19:39
Speaker 1: So for ten years, Maya only wore pants except for
19:43
Speaker 1: soccer when the uniforms almost completely covered the legs anyway,
19:47
Speaker 1: with the socks of wishing air. Mother had named m
19:51
Speaker 1: a gender neutral name.
19:53
Speaker 3: Things like that, right, I will say, I love a
19:57
Speaker 3: bit gender neutral name, so like, I don't know, I
20:00
Speaker 3: don't mind being referenced to Sam because you don't know,
20:03
Speaker 3: and I'm like, yes, let's just keep it that way.
20:07
Speaker 3: So Maya looked up gay and lesbian in the dictionary.
20:10
Speaker 3: After having crushes on boys and girls. Maya told a
20:13
Speaker 3: friend about these crushes before school, and our friends said
20:16
Speaker 3: it was probably just a phase, a common thing. But
20:20
Speaker 3: then Maya got a big crush on another girl and
20:23
Speaker 3: the friend tried to sabotage it, trying to convince Maya
20:26
Speaker 3: E was not a lesbian.
20:28
Speaker 2: That makes me sad, Yeah, yeah it does.
20:33
Speaker 1: Soon after, an openly gay student announced his intention to
20:37
Speaker 1: form a queer straight alliance. Though it took some courage,
20:41
Speaker 1: Maya went to join one of their meetings, and at
20:43
Speaker 1: these meetings they talked about gay marriage and gay penguins
20:47
Speaker 1: who raised tango, which I wanted to bring up because
20:49
Speaker 1: that's also. One of the most banned books is the
20:52
Speaker 1: very sweet children's book about.
20:55
Speaker 3: Wins Lidia the Parson reg episode.
21:01
Speaker 1: Yes Yes, Maya's friends tried to convince him not to go,
21:08
Speaker 1: complaining that he became unbearable after reading gay romance novels.
21:15
Speaker 1: Soon they joined, and the club sort of morphed into
21:18
Speaker 1: a Lord of the Rings fan club That's right, complete
21:22
Speaker 1: with discussions about which of the actors were most likely
21:25
Speaker 1: to be gay.
21:28
Speaker 3: I love that that the whole unbearable statement, because I
21:31
Speaker 3: do think it's funny. Not that you're unbearable, but you
21:35
Speaker 3: do get cut up in your world of Star Wars
21:37
Speaker 3: or The Last of Us and your daurries. I love it,
21:40
Speaker 3: and you're very good about taming yourself.
21:42
Speaker 2: But we know it's always back there.
21:45
Speaker 3: We know what's going to happen. We know what's coming.
21:48
Speaker 2: Did you know?
21:50
Speaker 3: I did not, but thanks for telling me.
21:54
Speaker 2: You will, you will know.
21:57
Speaker 3: So Maya was called in the office about not wearing deodorant.
22:02
Speaker 3: I feel like that happens to a lot of young kids,
22:04
Speaker 3: and I get it, and I don't. Oh my god.
22:06
Speaker 3: So he felt it was another example of air ignorance.
22:10
Speaker 3: In the hopes of finally taking to air crush, Maya
22:14
Speaker 3: asked her dad about David Bowie music, and I feel
22:17
Speaker 3: like that's like a queer canon, like you discover David
22:22
Speaker 3: Bowie and or all those lots of the crush liked Bowie,
22:28
Speaker 3: and when Maya listened and heard queer lyrics, he fell
22:31
Speaker 3: in love with the lyrics again. Am I using that
22:34
Speaker 3: expression cannon right? Because it's the new thing I've heard.
22:37
Speaker 1: It's huge on TikTok and you still haven't seen Spider Verse.
22:41
Speaker 2: I can't even talking about it.
22:44
Speaker 1: Jeez. Anyway, we're gonna go see it because we have
22:47
Speaker 1: to do an episode on Yeah, yes, we're going to
22:49
Speaker 1: see it.
22:50
Speaker 2: Okay, perfect, say angrily.
22:56
Speaker 1: When Maya was eleven, he imagined having a penis for
23:00
Speaker 1: the first time. Later he put a stock down airpants
23:03
Speaker 1: and imagined having a bulge while thinking of their favorite
23:07
Speaker 1: gay ship, and even later he would dream that air
23:12
Speaker 1: wish had been granted and he had a boner. Then
23:17
Speaker 1: there's a scene talking with air sister, who they seemed
23:23
Speaker 1: like they had a great relationship. Illustrations I believe, yeah,
23:29
Speaker 1: about how it never occurred to him to put something
23:32
Speaker 1: in air vagina or to taste air self. And that
23:37
Speaker 1: stood out to me because I had the same conversation
23:39
Speaker 1: with a friend of mine when we were in middle
23:41
Speaker 1: school and it's like, what are you talking about?
23:45
Speaker 3: I've never had that conversation with a friend. Maybe we
23:47
Speaker 3: were just too shy. We explicit we talked about masturbating,
23:53
Speaker 3: but we never explicitly talked about what that meant.
23:58
Speaker 1: She was talking about a book that she had read
24:02
Speaker 1: where that happened, and so I don't know. It was
24:05
Speaker 1: sort of she was like, yeah, and then they did this,
24:09
Speaker 1: and I was like, what.
24:15
Speaker 3: He like sex talking? It gets explicit, You're like, what
24:18
Speaker 3: the hell is happened. I'm like everyone, not just you,
24:22
Speaker 3: but like everyone like yes, but specifically.
24:25
Speaker 2: Yes, yes. Anyway.
24:29
Speaker 1: Maya then realized he was attracted to androgyny, which made
24:35
Speaker 1: it difficult to pin down air sexuality.
24:39
Speaker 4: Uh.
24:39
Speaker 1: He started to fantasize he had been born with two
24:42
Speaker 1: half souls, one boy and one girl, and he came
24:46
Speaker 1: up with this lost male twin who always felt like
24:49
Speaker 1: he should be a girl.
24:51
Speaker 3: I thought was interesting, right, And I like that whole
24:54
Speaker 3: like half spirits, because it is that two spirit idea
24:57
Speaker 3: that that the Natives have always talked about and have
24:59
Speaker 3: always represented, and that's been a part of their culture. Again,
25:02
Speaker 3: if we just listened to the Native people, I think
25:04
Speaker 3: we would all be smarter and happier.
25:05
Speaker 2: But that was okay.
25:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, anyway, it's not okay. I'm sad. Then Maya learned
25:10
Speaker 3: about the term transgender. This spurred a whole lot of
25:13
Speaker 3: questions about identity, both sexual and gender. He wrote in
25:17
Speaker 3: our journal at fifteen, I don't want to be a girl.
25:20
Speaker 3: I don't want to be a boy either. I just
25:22
Speaker 3: want to be myself. He dove into reading articles, books,
25:26
Speaker 3: especially of a queer variety. He got a haircut, a
25:30
Speaker 3: very short one. He loved being described in masculine terms,
25:33
Speaker 3: and that haircut scene really was cute because he was
25:35
Speaker 3: talking about how free they felt for the first time,
25:39
Speaker 3: and he used to hate being in pictures but now
25:42
Speaker 3: loved it.
25:43
Speaker 1: Yes, and there's a very cute moment about Maya's sister
25:48
Speaker 1: knowing all of this before Maya did, which I really
25:53
Speaker 1: really liked. Then Maya fell in love with the theater
25:59
Speaker 1: and to go on a date with a dude sort
26:01
Speaker 1: of out of guilt and pity, and immediately regretted it
26:04
Speaker 1: when he called m girlfriend, so he called the guy
26:09
Speaker 1: back and canceled. Maya turned to a friend and complained
26:13
Speaker 1: about all the stuff girls are expected to do and be,
26:16
Speaker 1: and Maya's friend said he was the least girly person
26:21
Speaker 1: they knew, which I also related to this immediate regret, no.
26:28
Speaker 3: Little for I feel like the extreme, like you're my girlfriend.
26:31
Speaker 3: I can tell everyone, yes, yeah, this works, but okay again.
26:36
Speaker 3: I had that weird one date and the dude was like,
26:40
Speaker 3: I can't find it one better than you, crying because
26:42
Speaker 3: I had to break up with him after a date,
26:43
Speaker 3: and I'm like, this is intense.
26:46
Speaker 2: That is intense.
26:48
Speaker 3: Why are we doing? This is happening anyway? This might
26:52
Speaker 3: explain to like older men being just as immature. Who knows.
26:55
Speaker 3: Maya still wrestled with confusion about aerosexuality and identity, but
27:00
Speaker 3: felt much happier. He was the only AFAB to wear pants,
27:04
Speaker 3: had graduation in two thousand and seven, and when we
27:06
Speaker 3: say f fab assigned female at birth. He went to
27:10
Speaker 3: college hoping to find love like their parents had. He
27:14
Speaker 3: learned about the damages of chest binding, something he learned
27:18
Speaker 3: after getting cast in a lead male role in the
27:20
Speaker 3: college's small drama program and experiencing jealousy of people without breasts.
27:26
Speaker 2: Yep.
27:27
Speaker 1: A friend of Maya's tried to set him up with
27:30
Speaker 1: a woman after finding out Maya sexuality, but Maya ran away,
27:34
Speaker 1: literally ran away. Later, Maya contacted the woman on Facebook,
27:39
Speaker 1: but the woman wasn't scared off and continued to show
27:42
Speaker 1: interest and confused, Maya thinks this is what he should want.
27:47
Speaker 1: Like air parents, Maya spoke to their dad but was
27:50
Speaker 1: still confused about dating. Afterwards, Maya called the woman to
27:54
Speaker 1: discuss all of this, and after confirming what a relationship
27:58
Speaker 1: would mean with this one and basically friendship with quote
28:02
Speaker 1: gross sex in Maya's mind, Maya confirmed he wasn't interested
28:07
Speaker 1: in a relationship. So yes, Maya is definitely wrestling with
28:12
Speaker 1: am I a sexual? Like I've got all these things
28:15
Speaker 1: going on?
28:17
Speaker 2: Questions?
28:18
Speaker 1: Again, He continued to explore air identity through entertainment like
28:23
Speaker 1: fan fiction. Yes, okay, so this scene resonated with a
28:29
Speaker 1: lot of people no matter your gender identity. He got
28:33
Speaker 1: this gynecology exam and felt very uncomfortable with air nude
28:39
Speaker 1: body and feeling unable to ask questions like why don't
28:43
Speaker 1: I feel like a girl to the gynecologist and experiencing
28:47
Speaker 1: horrible existential pain and swearing after that nothing would ever
28:52
Speaker 1: enter air vagina Again, Maya re examined the idea of
28:58
Speaker 1: being a sexual after college, when he realized that he
29:02
Speaker 1: probably had less of a sex drive than anyone else,
29:04
Speaker 1: though he had been able to masturbate with just thoughts,
29:08
Speaker 1: which again I was like, Oh, this is me. He
29:13
Speaker 1: sort of accidentally came out as not cis gender when
29:17
Speaker 1: arguing with someone who didn't get why the term was everywhere,
29:21
Speaker 1: and then he discussed the whole thing with air mom
29:24
Speaker 1: about how he wished he could remove air reproductive system.
29:29
Speaker 1: And then he fell into one direction fandom, which some
29:34
Speaker 1: of you have written in about, and started using fan
29:37
Speaker 1: fiction to work through grief. One hundred thousand words. But
29:42
Speaker 1: after all the angst, he didn't know how to write
29:45
Speaker 1: a makeout scene and he decided to make out with
29:50
Speaker 1: someone for fan fiction.
29:52
Speaker 3: Is this you do?
29:53
Speaker 2: You do?
29:53
Speaker 3: You do this level of like research because I'm thinking about,
29:56
Speaker 3: like when you talk about doing sex things and such,
29:58
Speaker 3: not that you would that as a research thing, but
30:00
Speaker 3: that did get pop into my head.
30:03
Speaker 4: It's funny because I was reading this, I was nodding
30:06
Speaker 4: my head furiously like I have done ridiculous researcher fan fiction.
30:12
Speaker 4: I've never I never kissed someone for it because I
30:16
Speaker 4: just kind of read other fan fiction and I had
30:18
Speaker 4: to kissed people before, but I learned from other fan fiction.
30:21
Speaker 1: But the first one of the first fan fictions I
30:23
Speaker 1: wrote included a four minute makeout scene that a friend
30:26
Speaker 1: of mine who's definitely not asexual read and was like,
30:30
Speaker 1: this is not realistic.
30:33
Speaker 3: Is a katie?
30:38
Speaker 2: She was right? I was just like, how long do
30:43
Speaker 2: you kiss for? Is it a lot of times?
30:46
Speaker 3: A little boat time? People who write dramas really go
30:53
Speaker 3: all out and exaggerate all those things, so it's not
30:55
Speaker 3: so unhearted that people would.
30:57
Speaker 2: Think, yeah, yeah, it was.
31:02
Speaker 1: It was clear that I didn't know those normal quote
31:07
Speaker 1: heavy quotes.
31:09
Speaker 2: For kissing length, but I tried my best.
31:14
Speaker 1: Yes, and through this research for fan fiction, he discovered
31:18
Speaker 1: the term auto androphilia, which is a person who's a
31:23
Speaker 1: fab who is sexually aroused at the thought or image
31:26
Speaker 1: of having a penis.
31:28
Speaker 2: Which I had never heard before.
31:29
Speaker 3: I had neither.
31:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, learning all the time. Anyway, Maya went on a
31:36
Speaker 1: tender date. It was a failure, but then another one
31:41
Speaker 1: was a huge success, and they were very open with
31:45
Speaker 1: each other. They had a lot in common. They find
31:48
Speaker 1: types of sexual intimacy that they're both turned on by. However,
31:53
Speaker 1: Maya realized he was more turned on by the imagined
31:58
Speaker 1: fact of having a peace, and he broke off the relationship. Still,
32:05
Speaker 1: Maya reopened tender because he never figured out how to
32:10
Speaker 1: end my fat fiction. Yes, yes, however solution Maya contacted
32:19
Speaker 1: air friend to write the sex Seeds, which.
32:22
Speaker 2: Is what I'm way to do it.
32:26
Speaker 3: And the good thing the friend was ready. She'd been waiting.
32:29
Speaker 3: She said, I had thousands of words ready to go.
32:34
Speaker 3: So this is when Maya discovered they then pronouns. He
32:39
Speaker 3: made mistakes using them at first, but soon it clicked
32:42
Speaker 3: as in for other people. He met someone on hormones
32:45
Speaker 3: and discussed why he didn't identify as a transman. Again
32:49
Speaker 3: it was about less gender traits, not more. Again, didn't
32:53
Speaker 3: want either. Then he learned about em air pronouns. And
32:58
Speaker 3: I think I'm putting an accent. So y'all hearing me?
33:02
Speaker 3: This is my Southern accent coming out with the earth.
33:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, I heard it.
33:09
Speaker 3: I hope it is endearing and non offensive. It's it's
33:15
Speaker 3: my North Georgia accent happening here.
33:19
Speaker 2: Anyway.
33:20
Speaker 3: Ask him what he wants in art. At first, he
33:23
Speaker 3: didn't want to make people uncomfortable by asking people to
33:26
Speaker 3: use these pronouns even though it felt right, but air
33:31
Speaker 3: friend asked him if he would rather feel a little
33:33
Speaker 3: uncomfortable all the time. Uh. And when Maya asked air
33:37
Speaker 3: gay aunt about changing pronouns that she was concerned that
33:40
Speaker 3: it was due to an internalized hatred of women. And
33:43
Speaker 3: they came to a good place, but Maya was still
33:46
Speaker 3: played with questions and a feeling of being broken. Yeah.
33:50
Speaker 3: And I feel like we we had that discussion before
33:52
Speaker 3: we got onto the mic about like we understood, like
33:57
Speaker 3: the aunt was just asking a simple question because I'm
34:00
Speaker 3: sure the aunt, being older, had fought for so long
34:03
Speaker 3: for a feminist identity and being able to fight against misogyny,
34:07
Speaker 3: but also that it's centered around the aunt's self and
34:11
Speaker 3: her own perceptions, and how that's so dangerous and that's
34:14
Speaker 3: this is what we talk about with white feminism. This
34:17
Speaker 3: is what we talk about in allyship, when people don't
34:20
Speaker 3: understand it's not about them, and so when they center
34:23
Speaker 3: trying to be empathetic, they centered around themselves instead of
34:27
Speaker 3: allowing it to be about that other person point blank.
34:31
Speaker 3: And it's easy to do because it sounds like you're
34:35
Speaker 3: trying to learn, and it sounds like you're making a
34:38
Speaker 3: good point. But in actuality, you're making a selfish it's
34:43
Speaker 3: a selfish assumption that's about your societal ideals versus what
34:49
Speaker 3: the an individual is going through. And I think that's
34:51
Speaker 3: for the whole Turf movement in itself, also just being bitter,
34:54
Speaker 3: but in general.
34:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And it's a very.
35:00
Speaker 1: I know better than you and I know about your
35:04
Speaker 1: experience more than you type of mindset. And they did,
35:09
Speaker 1: like like we said, they did come to an understanding.
35:12
Speaker 1: But that is one of the questions Maya gets asked
35:15
Speaker 1: about a lot. Is this conversation with the ant And
35:20
Speaker 1: then there was a fun kind of moment of realization
35:25
Speaker 1: with Lady Gaga where Maya was like, I was born
35:28
Speaker 1: this way again?
35:30
Speaker 3: Why Lady Gaga kind of a queer icon.
35:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then later at a queer comics convention, Maya
35:49
Speaker 1: puts on an em air pen but struggles to correct
35:54
Speaker 1: people who get it wrong. The whole experience inspired Maya
35:58
Speaker 1: to make a comic and and Maya did get better
36:01
Speaker 1: at correcting people. At air next gynecology exam, he explained
36:09
Speaker 1: he experienced gender dysphoria, and the doctor agreed to do
36:12
Speaker 1: what they could to make m comfortable. But the experience
36:16
Speaker 1: was incredibly painful, and the doctor prescribed anxiety medication, which
36:21
Speaker 1: is something else I've talked about. Maya then went to
36:26
Speaker 1: a trans writes March, but realized he wasn't happy with
36:29
Speaker 1: the clothes he had, so you went shopping for queer styles.
36:34
Speaker 1: Maya started teaching comics classes to young folks, mostly those
36:39
Speaker 1: A fab and started wondering if he was doing a
36:42
Speaker 1: disservice and not correcting folks miss gendering m I E.
36:49
Speaker 1: People would say, I never saw a woman doing this
36:52
Speaker 1: growing up. So Maya decided to come out so children
36:56
Speaker 1: could see a non binary person in air position, even
37:00
Speaker 1: though you were worried it might get em fired.
37:04
Speaker 2: And that's where it ends.
37:04
Speaker 1: It ends on a very It's so tragic because it's
37:07
Speaker 1: like a very hopeful message of like, I want to
37:11
Speaker 1: inspire the next generation. I want people to see me,
37:15
Speaker 1: I want people to know that this experience exists. But
37:19
Speaker 1: then there's these concerns of oh I might get fired
37:23
Speaker 1: right right, yeah.
37:25
Speaker 3: And especially today, especially annoying. Air book is now on
37:29
Speaker 3: bandless all over the country like the highest bandass. It
37:32
Speaker 3: kind of came to fruition, whether it wanted them or
37:35
Speaker 3: not it could be a but I feel like it's
37:39
Speaker 3: a good way, like Kobe has made headway and it
37:43
Speaker 3: made such a difference that it's that loud and it's amazing.
37:46
Speaker 3: But I'm sure had had a known this was happening,
37:50
Speaker 3: this would petrify them.
37:52
Speaker 2: Yeah.
37:54
Speaker 1: Well, and that's the thing is like when I was
37:57
Speaker 1: reading this, I kept thinking, I wish I had had
38:03
Speaker 1: this when I was young. Number one, and but two
38:09
Speaker 1: what I talked about in are when Samantha was doing
38:14
Speaker 1: the audiobook and we were also tired and the like
38:17
Speaker 1: LGBTQ plus terminology, Like there's just this. I think it's
38:23
Speaker 1: useful and that we need to talk about it, we
38:26
Speaker 1: need words to talk about it. But it is true
38:29
Speaker 1: that it's far from perfect because there's just so much
38:36
Speaker 1: that you can't put in one letter when it comes
38:39
Speaker 1: to gender identity, sexual orientation, just who you are. So
38:46
Speaker 1: it's this was great because it's true, like there's just
38:51
Speaker 1: so much that are hard to put into the terminology
38:55
Speaker 1: we currently have. And as I've said several times, like
38:58
Speaker 1: I didn't hear I heard asexual in the nineteen ninety
39:03
Speaker 1: eight Godzilla movie as a joke about lizards, but I
39:08
Speaker 1: didn't hear it like realistically until I was out of college,
39:15
Speaker 1: and you know, it's unfortunate because there's that idea that
39:21
Speaker 1: you know, I should have just known, but I I didn't.
39:26
Speaker 1: I didn't know that that was the thing, that I
39:28
Speaker 1: could be that way, identify it that way.
39:31
Speaker 2: So like having this really kind of.
39:34
Speaker 1: Kind look at that process of questioning if I don't
39:41
Speaker 1: know for sure, if I still don't know for sure,
39:45
Speaker 1: was just it was.
39:47
Speaker 2: It was amazing. It was like I wish I.
39:49
Speaker 1: Had had this right, and it is heartbreaking because it's
39:54
Speaker 1: getting banned when the end messages we should share this
39:58
Speaker 1: rubber people right.
40:00
Speaker 3: And that's the thing is like books like these, it
40:03
Speaker 3: gives an explanation for so many If the world was
40:06
Speaker 3: perfect and we wouldn't people accepted what it was. I
40:12
Speaker 3: don't think the conversation of pronouns would be this confusing
40:15
Speaker 3: in general. I believe that, you know, keeping it generic
40:20
Speaker 3: would have been just fine in itself. Not the not binary.
40:23
Speaker 3: I'm saying generic like that that's like the you could
40:27
Speaker 3: have just nothing, like just the just the experience of
40:29
Speaker 3: nothing and just being like genderless. We've always been binary
40:33
Speaker 3: to feel to hierarchy, and I think that's part of
40:35
Speaker 3: the problem, and that's the underlying beginning of the issue.
40:39
Speaker 3: That we can't just pretend like it was normal. It
40:41
Speaker 3: was normal because it was building building a system. So
40:44
Speaker 3: when we build a system and there has to be
40:46
Speaker 3: a hierarchy, then you know that this is this is
40:48
Speaker 3: meant to put someone down. This is meant to put
40:50
Speaker 3: a group of people down, whatever the group might be.
40:54
Speaker 3: And to pretend like that's not how it was set
40:56
Speaker 3: up is naive in itself. I'm speaking very I guess
41:01
Speaker 3: deeply at the same time, like generally in this but
41:05
Speaker 3: that's the fact of the matter, and the reason it's
41:07
Speaker 3: getting dwindled down and deeper and deeper and larger and
41:10
Speaker 3: larger is because people continue to push binary ideas to
41:15
Speaker 3: the point that they take over and abuse a certain term,
41:19
Speaker 3: it no longer gives the effect that it needs. So
41:21
Speaker 3: it's kind of this level of like, no, this is
41:23
Speaker 3: a battle, this is kind of a war based on
41:26
Speaker 3: just decency and recognition. And that's the conversation that we're
41:30
Speaker 3: not having. And it would be lovely just to have
41:32
Speaker 3: that genderless idea and just be there, just be there,
41:35
Speaker 3: existing and not hurting each other. That would be a lovely,
41:38
Speaker 3: lovely aspect. But this book is almost kind of testament
41:43
Speaker 3: to what it feels like because they're because A is
41:47
Speaker 3: having to figure out the simplicity through the difficulties, like
41:51
Speaker 3: through the complications, because no one will allow it to
41:54
Speaker 3: be simple. A simple is I don't want to be
41:58
Speaker 3: a gender. I don't identify as these genders, I don't
42:02
Speaker 3: identify in these sexualities. I just want to be and
42:06
Speaker 3: just want to be loved in that and not have
42:08
Speaker 3: the fear of that and being discovering that because it's
42:11
Speaker 3: so radical, even though it's almost the simplest.
42:15
Speaker 1: Right well, that was one of the things that really
42:17
Speaker 1: struck me about reading this is that it's over and
42:20
Speaker 1: over again clear that gender is a learned structure. And
42:26
Speaker 1: because Maya grew up homeschools, it's when you see it
42:33
Speaker 1: from a child's eyes who didn't grow up with it,
42:36
Speaker 1: I think you can really recognize how arbitrary a lot
42:41
Speaker 1: of this stuff is of oh, I can't my hair
42:46
Speaker 1: has to be this certain length, or oh I have
42:48
Speaker 1: to wear these certain things, and it's just somebody like
42:51
Speaker 1: societally telling you that you have to do that. But
42:55
Speaker 1: if you are outside of that, it doesn't make any sense.
42:58
Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense. And that whole idea I
43:01
Speaker 1: really really related to, Like this idea like people have
43:05
Speaker 1: access to a secret knowledge that you don't have because
43:08
Speaker 1: if it, if you're not heteronormative, it doesn't make sense
43:13
Speaker 1: to you, but it feels like it makes sense to
43:16
Speaker 1: everybody else, and you feel like then something is wrong
43:20
Speaker 1: with you, or like you're not smart and you're not
43:23
Speaker 1: picking up on something. And it's not that, like, it's
43:29
Speaker 1: just we've we have these structures and how we think
43:34
Speaker 1: people should have to be based on these hierarchies, like
43:38
Speaker 1: you said.
43:39
Speaker 2: And based on.
43:42
Speaker 1: Just these roles we've told ourselves that people have told
43:46
Speaker 1: us this is how it is. And so if you
43:50
Speaker 1: don't fit into that, and that's kind of the key
43:52
Speaker 1: is like the fitting in. That's kind of the issue
43:55
Speaker 1: with the letters of the LGBTQ plus, which again I
43:58
Speaker 1: think is useful but has its problems because if you're like, well,
44:03
Speaker 1: I don't fit in here, and I don't fit in here,
44:04
Speaker 1: like you're just always trying to find where you should go,
44:08
Speaker 1: and if you've never heard of it before, of whatever
44:13
Speaker 1: it is your feeling, if you've never talked to anybody
44:15
Speaker 1: else who's felt that way or identified that way. It
44:18
Speaker 1: can feel very much like lonely and that you are
44:24
Speaker 1: are like I convinced myself I was in a face
44:27
Speaker 1: for a long time.
44:28
Speaker 3: Right right, But this is that again, this comes back
44:31
Speaker 3: to you have to label yourself to fit into the hierarchy.
44:35
Speaker 3: You have to be able to label yourself to see
44:36
Speaker 3: where you stand in society in general, and which place
44:39
Speaker 3: you are and where you are on the structure, and
44:42
Speaker 3: which is kind of that whole level of like, No,
44:44
Speaker 3: the spectrum is a very useful conversation in that, at
44:49
Speaker 3: the very least, the spectrum puts you on one line
44:51
Speaker 3: with variations. Again, because it's not all black and white,
44:54
Speaker 3: it's not concrete about what it is, and it it
44:59
Speaker 3: doesn't really make sense that it should, to be honest,
45:02
Speaker 3: if we fluctuate, and if we are people who change
45:05
Speaker 3: and tastes or ideals or conversation or like beliefs, then
45:10
Speaker 3: why wouldn't everything else go with that? As simple as
45:14
Speaker 3: like your fashion, your fashion may change and it's becomes androgynous,
45:19
Speaker 3: too feminine, to masculine to whatever. It's kind of that
45:23
Speaker 3: same level of what do you identify as in your style?
45:28
Speaker 3: For me Grandma. Sure, I'm Grandma with my card again,
45:33
Speaker 3: or maybe I'm mister Rogers. I could be definitely that too,
45:36
Speaker 3: you know, I'm down down that road of spectrums. But
45:38
Speaker 3: like the conversation lies into that.
45:40
Speaker 5: This, this whole book is a look at why structures
45:47
Speaker 5: like this are damaging, can be confusing, and then overall
45:52
Speaker 5: again ostracizing and lonely.
45:54
Speaker 3: And I think that's why seeing this perspective is so
45:57
Speaker 3: good because it's not necessarily like for me, it was
46:01
Speaker 3: educational more than they also like relatable. It was educational,
46:04
Speaker 3: but it also again it was so simple and that
46:07
Speaker 3: in seeing how lonely A were and was throughout this process,
46:13
Speaker 3: not because A wanted to be with somebody that was
46:15
Speaker 3: not that that was not a goal, as goal was
46:19
Speaker 3: trying to figure out why that didn't matter to him,
46:22
Speaker 3: you know, and then feeling abnormal because I couldn't identify why,
46:28
Speaker 3: and that that is it kind of brings back to
46:30
Speaker 3: the conversation of like, I hate that A had to
46:33
Speaker 3: even have this moment of themselves because A had to
46:37
Speaker 3: really really focus on trying to figure themselves out and
46:41
Speaker 3: lost a lot of just being themselves. Yeah.
46:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's also.
46:49
Speaker 1: I had to kind of really examine some of my
46:53
Speaker 1: own thoughts because when I was reading it, I did
46:58
Speaker 1: have a moment of like, oh, oh, whoa, I can't
47:01
Speaker 1: believe they have this in libraries, which is terrible. And
47:06
Speaker 1: I thought about it, and I think one of the
47:12
Speaker 1: big issues is we don't have sex education here. We
47:15
Speaker 1: don't have it, and when we do, it is highly sexualized.
47:20
Speaker 1: So like, if you haven't read it, which I highly
47:23
Speaker 1: recommend that you do, there are sexual images, as we
47:28
Speaker 1: mentioned at the top, but they're not like gratuitous or
47:31
Speaker 1: graphic or explicit.
47:32
Speaker 2: No, it's not.
47:33
Speaker 1: And the thing is, if we had sex education, I
47:39
Speaker 1: don't think we would be having as big of a
47:42
Speaker 1: conversation about this, and we should have sex education because
47:48
Speaker 1: that is just something we should be having. Like so
47:52
Speaker 1: I do feel a lot of this for some of you,
47:56
Speaker 1: and I will admit it like I had them, I
47:58
Speaker 1: would like, whoa, this is a girl who's reading damn
48:01
Speaker 1: fan fiction to seventh grade, and that they had this
48:07
Speaker 1: in schools. But then I was like, I don't think
48:09
Speaker 1: it should be that way. I think it should be
48:11
Speaker 1: the opposite way. I think we should be able to
48:12
Speaker 1: read this in schools. As someone who at that age
48:16
Speaker 1: would have related to it and would have really benefited
48:20
Speaker 1: from it and not have it be quote obscene pornographic.
48:27
Speaker 1: We can't have kids reading this seeing.
48:31
Speaker 3: I mean, honestly, in the sixth grade, I was reading
48:35
Speaker 3: and watching renditions of Romeo and Juliet where a fourteen
48:39
Speaker 3: year old gets married and then murdered. Yes, so I mean,
48:42
Speaker 3: come on, like, that's what we grew up as educational
48:45
Speaker 3: and this sixth grade really really jumped into like, oh,
48:48
Speaker 3: this must be romance, right, this is true romance. No, bro,
48:52
Speaker 3: that's not to be real real clear on that. But yeah,
48:57
Speaker 3: and then and when we're talking about sex education, we're
49:00
Speaker 3: talking about nothing that exists here today, because when we're
49:03
Speaker 3: talking about sex education, what we're talking about is talking
49:05
Speaker 3: about the spectrum of sexuality and why that's important, of
49:08
Speaker 3: spectrum of gender identity, and why that's important. Understanding that
49:13
Speaker 3: some of these things are traumatic versus some of the
49:15
Speaker 3: things not like the whole conversation about guy mincologists. We
49:19
Speaker 3: don't talk enough about that experience to young girls who
49:22
Speaker 3: have to go in and not realize what is happening,
49:25
Speaker 3: to be strapped up on a table and oftentimes with
49:29
Speaker 3: men looking up your all your things when you've been
49:33
Speaker 3: told that is private and no one's to see it
49:34
Speaker 3: and everything should be covered up at all times, and
49:37
Speaker 3: then not understanding like we demonize that in general because
49:41
Speaker 3: you know, if it smells and you're dirty, or if
49:44
Speaker 3: it's not perfectly shaven or clean, it's dirty. All these
49:47
Speaker 3: conversations and not even sure how to clean it, Like
49:49
Speaker 3: we're not even having that conversation that level of what
49:53
Speaker 3: we're talking about in sexuality, having a conversation about this
49:56
Speaker 3: is what birth control bill is is not just for
49:58
Speaker 3: you having like if you sexual act that it can
50:01
Speaker 3: before regularly in your period, which can be bad. And y'all,
50:04
Speaker 3: it's not normal to be hurting this much. I really
50:06
Speaker 3: thought I was. I really thought I was supposed to
50:09
Speaker 3: be hurting with clots that were like quarter size coming
50:11
Speaker 3: out of my body and then being told later, no,
50:13
Speaker 3: that's not normal. Oh what, Oh okay, that's not normal,
50:18
Speaker 3: and not in Philly figuring it out till my mid twenties,
50:21
Speaker 3: being petrified and then being quiet because I thought, this
50:24
Speaker 3: pain is supposed to be normal, right once again, and
50:26
Speaker 3: that's part of that conversation. Also being whatever shame it
50:31
Speaker 3: is to your body is not okay, but being told
50:34
Speaker 3: that that's normal, right to cover it up, Like we
50:36
Speaker 3: don't talk about any of those things that it should
50:39
Speaker 3: be talked about. And yes, men should hear about it,
50:42
Speaker 3: and boys should hear about it, and they need to
50:44
Speaker 3: understand it so they can shut the hell up when
50:46
Speaker 3: we're saying we're having a period. We have and you're
50:47
Speaker 3: gonna get pushed out if you look at me wrong.
50:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, it's true. I think that one of
50:56
Speaker 1: the key things when I was reading this was that
51:00
Speaker 1: kind of shame. We have shamed so much of these
51:04
Speaker 1: conversations around sexuality and gender identity and women's bodies and
51:09
Speaker 1: like kind of coology being wrapped up in that I've
51:12
Speaker 1: talked before, like my first kind ofcology exam I was fifteen.
51:15
Speaker 1: Any traumatized, Like, no joke, I still think about it.
51:19
Speaker 1: It's the first horror story I've wrote on thirteen Days
51:22
Speaker 1: Halloween is based on it. Like, yes, it traumatized me.
51:29
Speaker 3: And you're not the only one. And then we talked
51:30
Speaker 3: about Iud's and I know Kristen and Caroline did an
51:33
Speaker 3: episode because Caroline talks about her experience versus my experience.
51:37
Speaker 3: But that's these like people come in but it's just on.
51:39
Speaker 3: You're fine, You're fine. And then people vomiting and having
51:42
Speaker 3: the experiences like of being in pain for years because
51:45
Speaker 3: they can't say the right things or whatever whatnot. And yeah,
51:48
Speaker 3: I think that's again that bigger point of like, Okay,
51:52
Speaker 3: when we talk about sex ed, we're talking about everything.
51:55
Speaker 3: We should be preparing people for whatever, for men too,
51:57
Speaker 3: for boys to about like it's normal to have erections
52:00
Speaker 3: this time that time, it's not normal to act out
52:03
Speaker 3: on it or anything. You know what I'm saying, Like
52:05
Speaker 3: any and all the things should be talked about in
52:07
Speaker 3: front of each other. If it's so embarrassing. Yeah, you
52:09
Speaker 3: can split the you know, genders up however you want
52:11
Speaker 3: to do it, but they still talk about it. Just
52:13
Speaker 3: because one gender is not there shouldn't doesn't mean that
52:16
Speaker 3: it shouldn't be discussed about. And yeah, and talking about
52:20
Speaker 3: real feelings. And then I love the reference to the
52:22
Speaker 3: book with the doctor who talks about breaking down of
52:26
Speaker 3: sexuality and as it not being like you may have
52:29
Speaker 3: a female body with a lot of more testosterones, so
52:31
Speaker 3: therefore you are more masculine in like feels and hormones,
52:35
Speaker 3: and yeah, you see that as evident when you meet
52:37
Speaker 3: certain people you're like, yeah, this is this is prevalent,
52:41
Speaker 3: Like biologically it's prevalent. You can see this. And I
52:45
Speaker 3: love that Maya talks about feeling heard and seen after
52:49
Speaker 3: reading the book and realizing, oh, it is biological, the
52:52
Speaker 3: reference to I'm born this way, but we should have
52:55
Speaker 3: that level of biological conversation. Yeah, then just those straight
53:00
Speaker 3: by there you have a penis, you have a vagina,
53:02
Speaker 3: congratulations or I'm sorry.
53:15
Speaker 2: I have an episode. I want to come back to you.
53:16
Speaker 1: Because I was talking with some people at D and
53:22
Speaker 1: D the other day and we were talking about a
53:24
Speaker 1: career days and it's amazing how damn gendered they were.
53:30
Speaker 1: And I got a sheet that was just it just
53:32
Speaker 1: said all about you, and it was the female body
53:36
Speaker 1: and it just had arrows pointing at things.
53:38
Speaker 2: And I was supposed to take this and learn anything
53:42
Speaker 2: anything from that, right, So it is.
53:45
Speaker 1: It's true, Like and I think that was something else,
53:49
Speaker 1: you know, finding that peace from that doctor and having
53:54
Speaker 1: things click into place. But there was also a lot
53:56
Speaker 1: of as you know, I loved a lot of the
53:59
Speaker 1: kind of important of representation and entertainment or just in
54:02
Speaker 1: general or just like finding ways to work through things.
54:06
Speaker 1: It did break my heart that Harry Potter was in
54:07
Speaker 1: there because now we know I'm I'm in the boat.
54:10
Speaker 1: I'm in the same boat. But like Tamora Piers and
54:14
Speaker 1: Mercedes Lackey. There was a Johnny Weird cosplay erotic gay
54:19
Speaker 1: fan fiction, which I feel like so many people, that's
54:21
Speaker 1: something else. People are like, but you don't like sex,
54:24
Speaker 1: and they're like, well, sometimes you just want people. It's
54:29
Speaker 1: like almost about them being happy.
54:33
Speaker 2: I know you're into it. I want you to get
54:36
Speaker 2: it if you are. There was mention of Nana Raimo.
54:41
Speaker 1: There was sellers of Katan yees yay boo yay.
54:50
Speaker 5: No.
54:51
Speaker 4: Yeah.
54:51
Speaker 1: I think that was one of my biggest At the end,
54:54
Speaker 1: I just wished that I had had this as a
54:57
Speaker 1: young person, because you don't you don't know, and no
55:00
Speaker 1: one's helping us to be honest, like I got it
55:03
Speaker 1: about Me worksheet and that was the end, Like so
55:10
Speaker 1: I know, and it's getting worse, Like I wasn't about
55:13
Speaker 1: this and now they're all these bands.
55:15
Speaker 3: Well it's getting worse, but it's getting better because I
55:17
Speaker 3: feel like my niece Gracie, who has been in a
55:21
Speaker 3: plethora of relationships as of recent with tchans, non binary, polyamorous,
55:27
Speaker 3: all the people, and I'm like, wow, my niece who
55:31
Speaker 3: has grown up in a very conservative I was worried
55:33
Speaker 3: about her a little bit when she was retweeting Donald
55:36
Speaker 3: Trump at one point, way back when, way back when, y'allah,
55:39
Speaker 3: way back when she has grown and learned. I'm very
55:41
Speaker 3: proud of her, But like seeing that that being a
55:46
Speaker 3: simple like, yeah it is. Why wouldn't I? How is
55:49
Speaker 3: this not normal? Like bringing them home and meeting the
55:52
Speaker 3: conservative family members and not and being proud of bringing
55:56
Speaker 3: them home, you know, like I when I would bring
55:58
Speaker 3: home friends, I remember being like warning my parents, they
56:01
Speaker 3: have ear rings, a lot of piercings, they have a
56:05
Speaker 3: nos ering. Yeah, don't react like my parents, you know,
56:09
Speaker 3: like stuff like that. But to see my Knees, who
56:12
Speaker 3: is a young twenties really taken in on that, and
56:16
Speaker 3: really her whole group of friends, most of them have
56:20
Speaker 3: come away from that conservative line to this is the
56:22
Speaker 3: new normal. And I love love seeing that and that
56:26
Speaker 3: this day and age, Yes, these big book bands are happening,
56:29
Speaker 3: and the conservatives are doing this, but it's not working
56:31
Speaker 3: like they think of this. When it comes to the
56:33
Speaker 3: younger generations they give no shits, and they have social
56:36
Speaker 3: media and they spread it even farther. And I love
56:39
Speaker 3: seeing that. I love that keeping on because that is
56:42
Speaker 3: the new attitude. And we talked previously like when they
56:45
Speaker 3: were banning books, previously there was pushback, but obviously the
56:49
Speaker 3: banning of the books from the nineteen fifties to the
56:51
Speaker 3: nineteen nineties to today has vastly changed because the pushback
56:55
Speaker 3: is different and the generations who are wanting these bands
56:58
Speaker 3: happen are typically dying off, Like Delfle.
57:03
Speaker 2: No, You're totally right, Like I do think.
57:07
Speaker 1: As I said, I'm really glad that we read this book,
57:10
Speaker 1: but I don't know that we would have read it
57:12
Speaker 1: without the book band. And I think that it is
57:18
Speaker 1: getting a lot of traction, uh because of it, and
57:22
Speaker 1: because it's good.
57:24
Speaker 2: It's good, and.
57:27
Speaker 1: I kind of hate that Maya keeps having to talk
57:29
Speaker 1: about people just interviewing and for about book bands, when
57:36
Speaker 1: the whole thing is it's so good and it's so
57:39
Speaker 1: it's just like I said, it's it felt like reading
57:43
Speaker 1: a diary, but it felt so novel because I've never
57:48
Speaker 1: really heard anybody talk about it. Even though I literally
57:53
Speaker 1: left thinking I've got to re examine some I've talked
57:56
Speaker 1: about myself.
57:59
Speaker 3: I was like, this amazing moment, and I think again,
58:03
Speaker 3: the way Maya Gobabe does this book, it is geared
58:08
Speaker 3: towards those who are lost today because they felt isolated.
58:16
Speaker 3: So it's it's a youthful interpretation of more themes that
58:23
Speaker 3: you could tell A want of this themselves as a youth,
58:27
Speaker 3: and so A is writing it to themselves as a youth,
58:32
Speaker 3: if that makes sense. And I love that because A
58:35
Speaker 3: adds on so many great scientific things, references so many
58:42
Speaker 3: new words or new concepts that meaning people may not
58:45
Speaker 3: have known, but does it in such an open and
58:48
Speaker 3: vulnerable way that it is again looks like a love letter,
58:53
Speaker 3: but at the same time and an admonishment to themselves
58:56
Speaker 3: as a youth for not only to help with their struggles,
59:02
Speaker 3: but also to encourage others in whomever else is struggling.
59:07
Speaker 3: So it's like all of these things is beautifully done.
59:10
Speaker 2: It really is.
59:11
Speaker 1: I did have a lot of it hit close to home,
59:15
Speaker 1: like I was just reading it thinking, oh, yeah, I
59:18
Speaker 1: just I was telling you before, Samantha, like I hated
59:23
Speaker 1: having breasts as a kid, to the point like it
59:26
Speaker 1: was a running joke amongst my friends that I hated it,
59:30
Speaker 1: and I always assumed it was because I had all
59:33
Speaker 1: this trauma and I like knew they draw they drew attention,
59:37
Speaker 1: which could be true. But after reading this, I was like,
59:40
Speaker 1: I wonder something else could be true as well. It's
59:44
Speaker 1: just that's the power of this kind of story of
59:47
Speaker 1: like this kind of sharing and openness is it invites
59:54
Speaker 1: other people to understand more about others but also themselves.
1:00:00
Speaker 2: So it really did hit. I was reading it like,
1:00:03
Speaker 2: oh damn.
1:00:05
Speaker 3: Oh, I think we were both thinking of you.
1:00:09
Speaker 2: I was shocked.
1:00:10
Speaker 1: I was, and then like we already talked about this,
1:00:15
Speaker 1: but just to be clear, like this whole idea, it's
1:00:18
Speaker 1: not rejecting womanhood. I really liked this quote towards the end,
1:00:23
Speaker 1: which was a description of gender as a landscape. Some
1:00:27
Speaker 1: are born in the mountains, some at sea level, some
1:00:29
Speaker 1: are happy where they are born, but others want to
1:00:32
Speaker 1: move right a simple as that, Like you said.
1:00:35
Speaker 3: It's simple. That's again, if if people could just take
1:00:38
Speaker 3: it as the story of Maya Kobabe and not women
1:00:43
Speaker 3: in general or men in general. It's that simple, Like
1:00:47
Speaker 3: it didn't even cross my mind that this was anything
1:00:53
Speaker 3: concerning womanhood right until A wrote about the aunt and
1:00:57
Speaker 3: I was like, oh no, it's obvious. And again this
1:01:02
Speaker 3: is different because we have our book to tell us
1:01:04
Speaker 3: straightforward what it's about, as where when A was talking
1:01:08
Speaker 3: to the on just heard different pronouns, don't want to
1:01:12
Speaker 3: be a woman? What type of conversation. So again not
1:01:16
Speaker 3: saying the aunt was bad or the villain in this
1:01:18
Speaker 3: book at all. But the fact of the matter is,
1:01:21
Speaker 3: if you take it as this is about Maya cobabe
1:01:24
Speaker 3: and air experience and any person who fills neither of
1:01:29
Speaker 3: these binary words fit them. It has nothing to do
1:01:34
Speaker 3: with womanhood period as a whole. It has nothing to
1:01:38
Speaker 3: do with me describing myself as a woman period. So
1:01:42
Speaker 3: I don't understand how that's offensive or an attack. So
1:01:45
Speaker 3: let's just and I don't see that as a misogynistic
1:01:48
Speaker 3: inter turmoil for A at all. It is literally just
1:01:53
Speaker 3: the turmoil that they've that A've been struggling with the
1:01:57
Speaker 3: entirety of their life and trying to find a point
1:02:01
Speaker 3: of being happy.
1:02:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I do think it's worth reflecting on,
1:02:09
Speaker 1: like I said, the limitations of language, because we did gender.
1:02:14
Speaker 1: Not all languages are gendered, and that's not to say
1:02:16
Speaker 1: that they don't have issues either, but not all languages
1:02:20
Speaker 1: of gender.
1:02:20
Speaker 3: And it makes sense or it's much like again the
1:02:22
Speaker 3: indigenous people who talks about being too spirited, and that's
1:02:26
Speaker 3: an open wide of all the things, whether it's being
1:02:28
Speaker 3: both or neither right right.
1:02:31
Speaker 1: So that's something to always keep in mind in this
1:02:35
Speaker 1: and it's it is unfortunate because, like I said, if
1:02:42
Speaker 1: I had known about this, it could have changed the
1:02:46
Speaker 1: course of my life. And you know, the learning of
1:02:50
Speaker 1: it's still problematic in terms of you know, just because
1:02:53
Speaker 1: you learn a new word, it doesn't necessarily change, but
1:02:56
Speaker 1: it gives you something to be like, Okay, that makes
1:03:00
Speaker 1: sense to me, and maybe the word for what you
1:03:03
Speaker 1: are doesn't exist. And like I said, it's so vast,
1:03:06
Speaker 1: it's so vast that some words can't like maybe just
1:03:12
Speaker 1: one word can't capture it. But yeah, I really I
1:03:18
Speaker 1: recommend it.
1:03:19
Speaker 2: I really really enjoyed it. I love the fan fiction bits.
1:03:23
Speaker 1: If we weren't going along, I would just go into
1:03:25
Speaker 1: that because I was like, yes, yes, but yes, we
1:03:32
Speaker 1: recommend that you check it out if you haven't already.
1:03:35
Speaker 1: As always, we would love to hear your suggestions for
1:03:38
Speaker 1: our next pick. You can email us at Stephandmom Steph
1:03:41
Speaker 1: at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter
1:03:44
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok as
1:03:48
Speaker 1: Stephan ever Told You, also on YouTube. Also, we have
1:03:51
Speaker 1: a tea public store. Also, we have a book you
1:03:54
Speaker 1: can pre order. You can pre order it at stuff
1:03:56
Speaker 1: you Should read Books dot com or on Audible. Things
1:03:59
Speaker 1: is always Too. Our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya,
1:04:03
Speaker 1: and our contributor Joey. Thank you all, yes, and thanks
1:04:06
Speaker 1: to you for listening. Stefan Never Told You is production
1:04:09
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