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Hell and Gone Murder Line: Karen Mitchell [From the Archives] · Hell and Gone: Murder Line

0:46
Speaker 1: School of Humans. Helen Gone Murder Line actively investigates cold
0:52
Speaker 1: case murders in an effort to raise public awareness, invite
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Speaker 1: witnesses to come forward, and present evidence that could potentially
0:58
Speaker 1: be further investigated by law enforcement. While we value insights
1:02
Speaker 1: from family and community members, their statements should not be
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Speaker 1: considered evidence and point to the challenges of verifying facts
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Speaker 1: inherent in cold cases. We remind listeners that everyone is
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Speaker 1: presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
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Speaker 1: Nothing in the podcast is intended to state or imply
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Speaker 1: that anyone who has not been convicted of a crime
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Speaker 1: is guilty of any wrongdoing. Thanks for listening.
1:30
Speaker 2: On Tuesday, November 25th, 1997, Thanksgiving Day, 16 year old
1:36
Speaker 2: Karen Mitchell had the day off from school and was
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Speaker 2: thinking about her future. Karen grew up in Southern California and,
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Speaker 2: for a long time, lived with her mother, Mary Casper,
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Speaker 2: and her brother James in Whittier, a town about 20
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Speaker 2: miles from Long Beach, California. Karen had been attending high
1:53
Speaker 2: school in Long Beach, but Karen had recently made the
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Speaker 2: decision to move in with her aunt and uncle to
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Speaker 2: a small town in Northern California called Eureka in Humboldt County,
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Speaker 2: population 28,000. The Guardian newspaper did an interview with Karen's
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Speaker 2: mother Mary and her brother James in 2015. And according
2:13
Speaker 2: to what Mary told the newspaper, Karen didn't really fit
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Speaker 2: in in Long Beach. She was kind of a hippie,
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Speaker 2: very into the environment, animals, and nature. She didn't care
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Speaker 2: about fashion or makeup like a lot of the other
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Speaker 2: girls in her class. It seemed like there was some
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Speaker 2: conflict brewing at home.
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Speaker 3: Her mom told.
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Speaker 2: The newspaper they had been butting heads and arguing more often.
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Speaker 2: A lot of it seemed to be typical teenage stuff,
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Speaker 2: but they came to the conclusion Karen wasn't happy in
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Speaker 2: Southern California. It just didn't seem to be the right
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Speaker 2: environment for Karen. So Karen and Mary decided that Karen
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Speaker 2: would spend a year living with her Aunt Annie and
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Speaker 2: Uncle Bill Casper in Northern California. This was a much
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Speaker 2: more rural area where she could enjoy nature and also
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Speaker 2: thought to be a safer area with a slower pace
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Speaker 2: of living. After living in Eureka for a few months,
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Speaker 2: It seemed like Karen was happy there, at least at first.
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Speaker 2: She had found a job at a local daycare and
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Speaker 2: was scheduled to work on that Tuesday afternoon. Annie Casper,
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Speaker 2: Karen's aunt, was her legal guardian. She owned a shoe
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Speaker 2: store inside the Bayshore Mall. That day, because there was
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Speaker 2: no school, Karen caught a ride with Annie to her
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Speaker 2: shoe shop, which was in the 3300 block of Broadway Street,
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Speaker 2: the local name for the 101 Freeway. Now, the 101
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Speaker 2: freeway was the main and pretty much only thoroughfare through town.
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Speaker 3: The mall was about three-quarters of.
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Speaker 2: A mile to a mile from Humboldt Child Care Council,
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Speaker 2: the daycare where Karen worked. Karen spent some time hanging
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Speaker 2: out with her aunt at the store. Then she left
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Speaker 2: for work. Her route took her north on a street
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Speaker 2: that in Eureka is sometimes referred to as Broadway. Karen
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Speaker 2: headed on foot in the direction of West Sonoma Street
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Speaker 2: in Eureka.
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Speaker 3: To her workplace at around 2.45 p.m.
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Speaker 2: Karen's trip to work should have taken her about a
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Speaker 2: mile down the 101, a highway that was heavily populated,
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Speaker 2: and this was in the middle of the day.
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Speaker 3: But her Aunt.
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Speaker 2: Annie came to the child care center around three hours
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Speaker 2: later to pick Karen up. That's when she figured out
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Speaker 2: Karen never made it to work. Annie immediately knew that
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Speaker 2: something was wrong. She called Karen's mother, Mary, in Southern California.
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Speaker 2: They called the police to report Karen missing. Mary drove
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Speaker 2: up to Eureka to help look for Karen. But Mary
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Speaker 2: never saw her daughter alive again. Karen Mitchell was gone.
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Speaker 2: I'm Katherine Townsend. Over the past seven years of making
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Speaker 2: my true crime podcast, Helen Gone, I've learned that there
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Speaker 2: is no such thing as a small town where murder
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Speaker 2: never happens. I have received hundreds of messages from people
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Speaker 2: all around the country saying asking for help with an
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Speaker 2: unsolved murder that's affected them, their families, and their communities.
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Speaker 2: If you have a case you'd like me and my
5:02
Speaker 2: team to look into, you can reach out to us
5:04
Speaker 2: at our Hell.
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Speaker 3: And Gone Murder Line at 678-744-6145.
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Speaker 2: That's 678-744-6145. Or you can send us a message on
5:07
Speaker 2: Instagram at hellandgonepod. This is Hell and Gone Murder Line.
6:05
Speaker 2: Karen Mitchell was born on November 30th, 1980. She grew
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Speaker 2: up in Whittier, about 25 miles from Long Beach, California,
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Speaker 2: and stayed there through junior high school. Her mom and
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Speaker 2: aunt told Dateline that even as a little girl, Karen
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Speaker 2: cared deeply about people and causes. She did things like
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Speaker 2: attend peace rallies or give money to people in need.
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Speaker 2: Her Aunt Annie described her to Dateline as a very
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Speaker 2: smart young woman who was an old soul. And even
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Speaker 2: though Karen had moved north to be with her aunt
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Speaker 2: and uncle, She maintained a close relationship with her mother
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Speaker 2: Mary and her brother. They spoke regularly, and Karen came
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Speaker 2: home for summer and for school holidays. In fact, Karen
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Speaker 2: had been planning to fly home over Christmas. She had
6:51
Speaker 2: already bought the tickets, but the tickets remained unused. Police
6:57
Speaker 2: asked Karen's family about their last contact with her. Mary
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Speaker 2: told investigators that her last phone conversation was on the
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Speaker 2: morning that Karen disappeared. Because even though Karen was happy
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Speaker 2: in Eureka and making friends and getting good grades, she
7:11
Speaker 2: also seemed to be getting restless. She had told her
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Speaker 2: mom she hoped to finish high school in the next
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Speaker 2: few months, to graduate early, and then to enroll at
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Speaker 2: Humboldt State College, the school now known as California State
7:24
Speaker 2: Polytechnic University. So Karen and her mother had spent the
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Speaker 2: morning chatting and filling out a college application over the phone.
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Speaker 2: Both her mom and her aunt said Karen would never
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Speaker 2: disappear voluntarily. Soon, police and searchers were scouring the area.
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Speaker 2: Karen's missing posters went up everywhere. According to the missing
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Speaker 2: persons info posted on the Doe Project, Karen was five
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Speaker 2: feet inches tall, weighing 130 pounds. She had short, sandy
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Speaker 2: blonde hair that went to her neck and greenish blue eyes.
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Speaker 2: She was last seen wearing a long-sleeved tan shirt, baggy
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Speaker 2: dark brown corduroy pants, and tan leather shoes with buckles.
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Speaker 2: Karen was also wearing some jewelry, a silver necklace with crystal,
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Speaker 2: three silver rings, and small hoop earrings. And she was
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Speaker 2: carrying a reusable.
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Speaker 3: Nalgene water bottle.
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Speaker 2: Police scoured the area with canines and cadaver-sniffing dogs. Volunteers
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Speaker 2: and law enforcement searched a lot of terrain. They had
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Speaker 2: a big response. A lot of people saw those posters
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Speaker 2: and some reached out with tips. A motel owner reached
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Speaker 2: out to Mary and said he believed that Karen was
8:34
Speaker 2: at his motel. So she rushed there and saw a
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Speaker 2: young woman. This young woman looked like Karen, but it
8:40
Speaker 2: wasn't her. Then, a few months after Karen disappeared, police
8:44
Speaker 2: got a potential lead. A witness came forward who said
8:47
Speaker 2: that he saw a woman who he believed to be
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Speaker 2: Karen on the day she disappeared getting into a vehicle.
8:54
Speaker 2: The witness described the vehicle as a light blue four-door
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Speaker 2: 1976 to 1978 sedan, possibly a Ford Granada, a Mercury Monarch,
9:03
Speaker 2: or a Nissan. The most memorable part of the description
9:07
Speaker 2: was actually the license plates. According to the witness, the
9:10
Speaker 2: driver had California license plates and the word Eureka printed
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Speaker 2: on the rear plate's frame. This person, the witness, claimed
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Speaker 2: that they actually almost got into a car accident. when
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Speaker 2: the man in the mystery vehicle turned onto Broadway Street, a.k.a.
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Speaker 2: the 101, and nearly hit him. After that, the witness
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Speaker 2: said the car stopped and picked up a young woman
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Speaker 2: who matched Karen's description. So, presumably because they were probably
9:37
Speaker 2: a little bit shaken, the witness remembered the driver well.
9:41
Speaker 2: The witness described the driver of the car as a
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Speaker 2: white male, approximately 60 to 70 years old, with balding,
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Speaker 2: light gray, or sandy blonde hair. the witness helped police
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Speaker 2: create a composite sketch with even more details, including that
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Speaker 2: the man had green or gray eyes and a large-sized
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Speaker 2: nose that appeared to have been previously broken, and that
10:01
Speaker 2: he had a small build and wore eyeglasses. The witness
10:05
Speaker 2: stated that the driver of the car was wearing a long-sleeved, button-down,
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Speaker 2: light blue shirt.
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Speaker 3: We're going to be posting.
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Speaker 2: Sketches of the car and the driver on Instagram at ellengonepod.
10:16
Speaker 2: Because this case is still technically open, There is not
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Speaker 2: a lot of information out there about how police chased
10:23
Speaker 2: down the sleet. But it was reported on charlieproject.org that
10:28
Speaker 2: police did find a car similar to the car reported
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Speaker 2: by the witness. Then, shortly after Karen disappeared, they apparently
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Speaker 2: located the driver and gave that person a polygraph test.
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Speaker 2: It was reported that that person was... ultimately cleared of
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Speaker 2: any involvement in Karen's disappearance. But again, we don't know details.
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Speaker 2: Was this definitely the car the witness saw? Did the
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Speaker 2: Eureka plates match? Or did police just find a car
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Speaker 2: that resembled the description given by the witness and questioned
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Speaker 2: the driver of that car?
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Speaker 3: Like a lot of things.
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Speaker 2: In this case, because this is still an open investigation,
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Speaker 2: we're just not sure. I also have some other questions,
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Speaker 2: including how reliable is this witness description? Because it hits
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Speaker 2: me that the witness must have been very close to
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Speaker 2: that other car to see the driver's eye color. Again,
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Speaker 2: I wish we had access to the case file so
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Speaker 2: that we could see exactly what this person told the
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Speaker 2: police in the complete interview. Because so much of the
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Speaker 2: subsequent investigation appears to be based on this witness description,
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Speaker 2: it would be super helpful to find out if police
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Speaker 2: were able to be sure that this was Karen the
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Speaker 2: witness saw. Karen's disappearance shocked the local community. For the
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Speaker 2: most part, the area where Karen vanished is known as
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Speaker 2: a pretty safe area. And Karen went missing in the
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Speaker 2: middle of the day in a well-trafficked area. Plus, of course,
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Speaker 2: the irony of all this was that part of the
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Speaker 2: reason why Karen moved to Humboldt County in the first
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Speaker 2: place was because she and her mom thought of it
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Speaker 2: as safer than where she had been living in Southern California.
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Speaker 2: Karen's mother, Mary, gave the guardian more background. She said
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Speaker 2: she had Karen when she was 18 years old and
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Speaker 2: Karen's brother when she was just 16 years old. Karen's
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Speaker 2: mother was married to their father, but they divorced when
12:25
Speaker 2: the kids were young. So Mary raised those two children
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Speaker 2: as a single mom. For years, she worked multiple jobs
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Speaker 2: to support her family. Mary said that her brother Bill
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Speaker 2: and his wife Annie were the ones who suggested that
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Speaker 2: Karen come and live with them and their three sons
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Speaker 2: in Eureka. But as we said before, even though she
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Speaker 2: seemed to find some peace in Eureka, Karen seemed to
12:47
Speaker 2: be getting bored. She started making more concrete plans to
12:51
Speaker 2: go to college. police did consider the possibility that Karen
12:56
Speaker 2: could have been a runaway. So just to briefly touch
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Speaker 2: on that, on the day she disappeared, she was figuring
13:02
Speaker 2: out applications and financial aid. It seemed like she was
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Speaker 2: planning for the future. So this made her friends and
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Speaker 2: family believe she would not have run away. Also, she
13:12
Speaker 2: was very reliable about getting to work on time, and
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Speaker 2: she specifically said she was headed there. She didn't pack
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Speaker 2: anything to take with her. And also, Karen had a
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Speaker 2: bank account. After she disappeared, no one ever tried to
13:24
Speaker 2: access that money. And, as we said before, she never
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Speaker 2: came back home to visit her mother and brother with
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Speaker 2: her prepaid airline tickets. Months went by, and there was
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Speaker 2: zero sign of Karen. Eventually, the searches died down, and
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Speaker 2: the headlines stopped. Mary and James went back to Southern California,
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Speaker 2: and they waited. Over the years, Mary has talked to
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Speaker 2: the media. She appeared on the Sally Jesse Raphael talk show.
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Speaker 2: And she talked regularly with the detective in charge of
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Speaker 2: the case, Dave Paris. From the interviews that Dave Paris
14:00
Speaker 2: has given about the case, it seems clear that he
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Speaker 2: cared deeply about it. And it's something that he reflected
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Speaker 2: on a lot during his time in law enforcement. Dave
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Speaker 2: Paris told the Eureka Times-Standard back in 2012 that he
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Speaker 2: was haunted by the case. He said he'd spent a
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Speaker 2: lot of time thinking about what could have happened to Karen.
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Speaker 2: Parts of Humboldt County are places where it could be
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Speaker 2: easy for a person to disappear. It's an area that's
14:27
Speaker 2: surrounded by a lot of forests, and there are a
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Speaker 2: lot of people growing marijuana in those forests. Giant redwood
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Speaker 2: trees block out the view from the road. There were
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Speaker 2: also a lot of transients in the area and a
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Speaker 2: lot of hitchhikers. Karen was added to an ominous list
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Speaker 2: of young women who had gone missing in and around
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Speaker 2: Humboldt County. They were known as the Humboldt Five. These
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Speaker 2: young women went missing years apart under different circumstances in
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Speaker 2: various parts of the county. There's no evident connection between
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Speaker 2: any of the cases. The only commonality is that all
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Speaker 2: of them were young women and none of them were
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Speaker 2: ever seen again. There's actually a spot there called Alder
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Speaker 2: Point that is nicknamed Murder Mountains.
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Speaker 3: It was originally apparently nicknamed that.
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Speaker 2: After a serial killing couple hid out there in 1982.
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Speaker 3: But the name kind of stuck around.
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Speaker 2: Netflix actually made a documentary about missing people in the
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Speaker 2: area called Murder Mountain. But later, questions emerged about how
15:27
Speaker 2: accurate the statistics of missing people were in the area
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Speaker 2: because it's been widely reported that the California Department of
15:34
Speaker 2: Justice stated that in 2024... 244 children and 238 adults
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Speaker 2: were reported missing from Humboldt County. But the sheriff of
15:44
Speaker 2: Humboldt County made a statement to KRCR News. He pointed
15:49
Speaker 2: out that of the 244 juveniles reported missing, 242 of
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Speaker 2: them were later found. And out of the 238 adults
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Speaker 2: that were reported missing, 203 were found. So, yes, At
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Speaker 2: first glance, the sheriff said there seemed to be a
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Speaker 2: lot of missing people in Humboldt County, but you have
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Speaker 2: to look at the other side of the equation. Most
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Speaker 2: of those people are eventually found. Unfortunately, Karen Mitchell was
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Speaker 2: not one of them. Over the years, there were some
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Speaker 2: suspects and people of interest who popped up, including two
16:28
Speaker 2: very high-profile serial killers.
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Speaker 3: One of them was a man named Wayne Adam Ford.
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Speaker 3: At around 6.30 p.m.
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Speaker 2: On November 3rd, 1998, 36-year-old Wayne Adam Ford walked into
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Speaker 2: the Humboldt County Sheriff's Office with his brother. He told
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Speaker 2: police he wanted to confess to murder. Then he held
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Speaker 2: out a piece of female breast that was sealed inside
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Speaker 2: a plastic bag that he had in his jacket pocket.
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Speaker 2: Wayne Adam Ford had a connection to the area. He
17:11
Speaker 2: had lived in Trinidad, a town about 30 minutes outside
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Speaker 2: of Eureka. He was recently divorced at the time and
17:17
Speaker 2: had a two-year-old son. He lived a fairly isolated life.
17:21
Speaker 2: His wife and son were living in Las Vegas. Wayne
17:25
Speaker 2: was a long-haul trucker, which he claimed gave him access
17:29
Speaker 2: to his female victims. Women came forward and described being
17:33
Speaker 2: attacked by a man who matched Wayne's description and who
17:35
Speaker 2: drove a truck. Police explored the possibility that he may
17:39
Speaker 2: have been involved in other crimes, including other murders. Carlton Smith,
17:45
Speaker 2: author of a book called Shadows of Evil, pointed out
17:48
Speaker 2: in the book that this was an interesting case because
17:51
Speaker 2: behavioral analysts at the FBI training facility at Quantico at
17:54
Speaker 2: the time believed serial killers tend to escalate over time.
17:58
Speaker 2: In other words, their murders get worse and more brutal.
18:02
Speaker 2: But Wayne's trajectory seemed to be the opposite. Wayne eventually
18:06
Speaker 2: confessed to murdering four people, including a young woman, Jane Doe.
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Speaker 2: Her torso was found floating in Humboldt County near Eureka.
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Speaker 2: Her case was known as the torso case. In 2023,
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Speaker 2: Jane Doe was finally identified as 25-year-old Carrie Ann Cummings.
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Speaker 2: Wayne was eventually convicted of killing Carrie Ann and three
18:28
Speaker 2: other victims.
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Speaker 3: 26-year-old Tina Renee.
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Speaker 2: Gibbs, who was killed in Las Vegas on May 16, 1998,
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Speaker 2: and her body dumped in Kern County, California. 25-year-old Lynette White,
18:41
Speaker 2: who was murdered on September 25, 1998, in Ontario, California.
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Speaker 2: Her body was dumped in an irrigation canal near Lodi, California.
18:50
Speaker 2: The final victim was 29-year-old Patricia Tamez. She was murdered
18:55
Speaker 2: in Hesperia, California, in October of 1998. Her body was
18:58
Speaker 2: dumped in an aqueduct in San Bernardino County. Wayne claimed
19:03
Speaker 2: that he picked up three of his victims as hitchhikers.
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Speaker 2: But police said there were parts of his story that
19:09
Speaker 2: didn't really make sense. They said, Three of Wayne's victims
19:12
Speaker 2: were known sex workers. Because of that, they believe Wayne
19:16
Speaker 2: was lying about the real reason why they initially got
19:19
Speaker 2: into his vehicle. But he was telling the truth about
19:23
Speaker 2: where the bodies were located. Wayne was also unusual in
19:27
Speaker 2: that he randomly showed up.
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Speaker 3: To confess to his crimes. And he seemed to have a.
19:31
Speaker 2: Genuine desire to stop rather than trying to just taunt
19:34
Speaker 2: the police. Police have stated Wayne killed his first victim
19:39
Speaker 2: about a month before Karen disappeared. But other than proximity
19:42
Speaker 2: to Karen, there wasn't much to go on evidence-wise. Neither
19:46
Speaker 2: the vehicle nor the description of the driver matched Wayne
19:50
Speaker 2: Ford's appearance. It was reported in 1999 in the Los
19:54
Speaker 2: Angeles Times that police were waiting on DNA tests to
19:58
Speaker 2: see if Wayne could be linked to Karen's case. But
20:03
Speaker 2: after that, nothing further was reported and police did not
20:06
Speaker 2: move forward with pursuing a case against Wayne. Wayne was
20:11
Speaker 2: operating in the same area as where Karen went missing,
20:14
Speaker 2: but he drove a truck, not the car the witness described,
20:18
Speaker 2: and the link between him and Karen was never established.
20:21
Speaker 2: Not to mention the fact that Wayne confessed to his kills,
20:24
Speaker 2: but he never mentioned Karen. Of course, serial killers and
20:28
Speaker 2: killers in general can lie, especially when they have something
20:32
Speaker 2: to gain. In Mary and James' 2015 interview with The Guardian,
20:37
Speaker 2: the writer asked Mary Kasper about the Wayne Ford rumors.
20:41
Speaker 2: Mary told The Guardian that Detective Parris told her Wayne
20:45
Speaker 2: Ford was given a lie detector test and that he
20:48
Speaker 2: was specifically questioned about Karen. that Wayne had denied having
20:52
Speaker 2: anything to do with her disappearance and that apparently he
20:54
Speaker 2: passed that test. Mary also told the newspaper she went
20:58
Speaker 2: a step further. She said in 2000, she personally went
21:01
Speaker 2: to see Wayne Ford in prison. Mary said she asked
21:04
Speaker 2: him point blank if he killed Karen. She also showed
21:08
Speaker 2: Wayne pictures of her daughter. Mary claimed that Wayne told
21:12
Speaker 2: her that, quote, she looks like she could be one
21:15
Speaker 2: of mine, end quote. But Mary said Wayne was asking
21:19
Speaker 2: her to write to him in prison and offering to
21:21
Speaker 2: give her information.
21:22
Speaker 3: Little by little, so she said no.
21:25
Speaker 2: For what it's worth, I think that Mary refusing to
21:28
Speaker 2: write to Wayne was the right call. This is just
21:31
Speaker 2: my opinion, but I see way too many instances of
21:34
Speaker 2: killers in prison who seem to get a kick out
21:36
Speaker 2: of stringing along journalists and family members, other people who
21:40
Speaker 2: write to them. In the end, most of them just
21:43
Speaker 2: end up wasting a lot of time and for those
21:46
Speaker 2: closest to the victim, causing even more heartache. But it
21:50
Speaker 2: does show how much Mary loved her daughter and how
21:53
Speaker 2: she was willing to go to any lengths to try
21:55
Speaker 2: to get answers about what.
21:56
Speaker 3: Happened to her.
21:58
Speaker 2: Karen's case made headlines again in 2002. It was reported
22:02
Speaker 2: in the Sioux City Journal that police in California were
22:05
Speaker 2: looking at similarities between Karen's case and the cases of
22:08
Speaker 2: two young women who were murdered in Oregon. In January
22:12
Speaker 2: of 2002, 12-year-old Ashley Pond disappeared on her way to
22:17
Speaker 2: the bus stop in Oregon City. Then, two months later,
22:20
Speaker 2: a classmate of hers, 13-year-old Miranda Gaddis, also disappeared in
22:25
Speaker 2: the same neighborhood, also near a bus stop. The two girls'
22:29
Speaker 2: bodies were eventually found at a property rented by 39-year-old
22:33
Speaker 2: Ward Weaver III. Ward Weaver III lived near the area
22:38
Speaker 2: where both girls disappeared. One of the girls' bodies was
22:41
Speaker 2: found in a shed. The other body was found buried
22:44
Speaker 2: under a concrete slab. Police found the bodies when they
22:48
Speaker 2: were investigating Ward Weaver for the rape of his son's girlfriend.
22:53
Speaker 2: In 2004, Ward Weaver was sentenced to life without the
22:57
Speaker 2: possibility of parole for the sexual assault and murders of
23:00
Speaker 2: Miranda and Ashley. Even though those murders happened in Oregon,
23:05
Speaker 2: it was reported that Ward Weaver grew up in Eureka,
23:08
Speaker 2: the same town where Karen was living at the time
23:10
Speaker 2: of her disappearance. Randomly, Ward Weaver III's father, Ward Weaver Jr.,
23:17
Speaker 2: is also a convicted serial killer. Ward Weaver Jr. was
23:21
Speaker 2: arrested and convicted of the murders of a young couple
23:24
Speaker 2: in 1981 and dumping their bodies under concrete in his backyard.
23:29
Speaker 2: At the time Karen went missing, it was reported that
23:32
Speaker 2: Ward Jr.
23:33
Speaker 3: the father, was in prison.
23:35
Speaker 2: Other than Ward III's proximity to Karen Mitchell's hometown at
23:38
Speaker 2: some point, Police apparently determined there was no connection between
23:43
Speaker 2: Ward Weaver and Karen Mitchell. But in 2015, another very
23:49
Speaker 2: infamous name came up as being potentially connected to Karen's case.
23:54
Speaker 2: Multi-millionaire real estate scion turned serial killer Robert Durst. Robert Durst,
24:10
Speaker 2: of course, was a member of the Durst family, a
24:13
Speaker 2: Manhattan real estate magnate.
24:15
Speaker 3: His family was worth an estimated.
24:17
Speaker 2: $ 8 billion and founded the Durst organization, which eventually went
24:22
Speaker 2: on to own, manage, and build an estimated 13 million
24:25
Speaker 2: square feet of Manhattan office towers.
24:28
Speaker 3: Robert Durst, of course, became a household.
24:30
Speaker 2: Name early in 2015 after being the subject of the
24:34
Speaker 2: HBO documentary series, The Jinx. I won't go through all
24:38
Speaker 2: the details of this case. This story is much too
24:41
Speaker 2: long and bizarre to cover completely here, but just to
24:44
Speaker 2: briefly recap, Robert Durst was suspected of several murders when
24:48
Speaker 2: the documentary aired in 2015, including the killing of his
24:51
Speaker 2: neighbor Morris Black in Texas in 2001, the murder of
24:55
Speaker 2: his friend Susan Berman in Los Angeles in 2000, and
24:58
Speaker 2: the murder of his wife Kathleen, who went missing in
25:01
Speaker 2: 1982 under very suspicious circumstances. Kathleen was 29 years old
25:06
Speaker 2: and in medical school when she vanished without a trace
25:08
Speaker 2: on January 31st, 1982. She and Robert had been living
25:12
Speaker 2: in Westchester County, New York. He told police they had
25:16
Speaker 2: an argument and she left their home and he had
25:18
Speaker 2: no idea where she was. But Robert waited five days
25:21
Speaker 2: to report her missing and their marriage had been volatile.
25:25
Speaker 2: Kathleen's family said Robert was controlling and had rage issues.
25:29
Speaker 2: So from the beginning, Kathleen's family always suspected that Robert
25:33
Speaker 2: killed Kathleen. After Kathleen disappeared, Robert did too. For a
25:38
Speaker 2: long time, he kind of disappeared off the grid. Family
25:41
Speaker 2: and friends had no idea where he was. Then, on
25:44
Speaker 2: September 30, 2001, the body of Robert's neighbor and friend,
25:49
Speaker 2: 71-year-old Morris Black, washed up in Galveston Bay, Texas. Morris
25:54
Speaker 2: Black had been dismembered. Police quickly focused on Robert Durst because,
25:58
Speaker 2: at the time, he was living in the same apartment
26:00
Speaker 2: complex as Morris Black. Robert Durst admitted he did dismember Morris'
26:05
Speaker 2: body and get rid of it, but he denied murdering him.
26:08
Speaker 2: He claimed Morris had attacked him and that he fatally
26:11
Speaker 2: shot Morris in self-defense before dumping his body. In 2003,
26:16
Speaker 2: Robert Durst was acquitted of Morris Black's murder in Texas.
26:20
Speaker 2: He ended up pleading guilty to tampering with evidence, relating
26:23
Speaker 2: to him cutting up Morris Black's body and disposing of
26:26
Speaker 2: it rather than calling law enforcement.
26:28
Speaker 3: Then, in 2015.
26:30
Speaker 2: Robert Durst was arrested in New Orleans, Louisiana, on weapons charges.
26:34
Speaker 2: He was charged with the murder of his friend, Susan Berman,
26:37
Speaker 2: in Los Angeles. And then, in 2021, following the massive
26:41
Speaker 2: global publicity that was brought to the case by the
26:44
Speaker 2: show The Jinx and a long, drawn-out trial in LA,
26:48
Speaker 2: Robert Durst was eventually convicted of murdering Susan Berman. Robert
26:53
Speaker 2: Durst got life without the possibility of parole. He was
26:56
Speaker 2: sent to prison. Then, in October of 2021, he was
27:01
Speaker 2: finally charged with Kathleen's murder. But that trial never happened,
27:05
Speaker 2: because in January of 2022, Robert Durst died in prison
27:09
Speaker 2: at the age of 78. So there are a lot
27:13
Speaker 2: of questions that police can't ask Robert Durst about his past.
27:17
Speaker 2: There were a lot of years after Kathleen went missing
27:20
Speaker 2: and before Morris Black's body washed up when Robert Durst
27:24
Speaker 2: flew under the radar. He cut off contact with pretty
27:27
Speaker 2: much his entire family. He lived under various aliases, paying cash,
27:32
Speaker 2: sometimes living or presenting as a woman in different cities
27:35
Speaker 2: around the country. But we do know where he was
27:39
Speaker 2: for at least some of that time. And as it
27:41
Speaker 2: turns out, During the time when Karen went missing, Robert
27:45
Speaker 2: Durst was living in the small town of Trinidad, about
27:49
Speaker 2: 22 miles or less than half an hour's drive from
27:52
Speaker 2: where Karen Mitchell lived with her aunt and uncle. Robert
27:55
Speaker 2: had bought himself a modest three-story house near the coast.
27:59
Speaker 2: In March of 2015, after the last episode of The
28:03
Speaker 2: Jinx aired and after Robert Durst was arrested in New Orleans,
28:07
Speaker 2: several law enforcement agencies apparently were trying to review his
28:11
Speaker 2: address history. they wanted to figure out if he could
28:14
Speaker 2: be responsible for more crimes. FBI Director James Comey announced
28:19
Speaker 2: that he was ordering every FBI bureau in the United
28:22
Speaker 2: States to review cold cases. He wanted to find out
28:26
Speaker 2: where Robert Durst was over all those years. And according
28:29
Speaker 2: to multiple media reports, the FBI did appear to be
28:33
Speaker 2: covering all bases and taking the Humboldt County potential connection seriously.
28:38
Speaker 2: Police in Eureka announced they wanted to speak to Robert
28:42
Speaker 2: Durst about Karen Mitchell, though the Guardian article noted nothing
28:46
Speaker 2: was ever confirmed. We have to take a lot of
28:49
Speaker 2: these theories with a grain of salt. When you try
28:52
Speaker 2: to trace them back to their source, a lot of
28:55
Speaker 2: these theories seem to have been circulated at the time
28:57
Speaker 2: by a journalist named Matt Birkbeck. He wrote a book
29:00
Speaker 2: about Robert Durst called A Deadly Secret. He stated in
29:03
Speaker 2: that book that he believed Robert Durst could be responsible
29:07
Speaker 2: for Karen's murder.
29:08
Speaker 3: Because, he has claimed on his.
29:10
Speaker 2: Website, there are credit card records that put Robert Durst
29:13
Speaker 2: in Eureka on the day Karen disappeared. Matt also claims
29:18
Speaker 2: Robert Durst resembles the composite sketch, the one that police
29:21
Speaker 2: made of the man with glasses and a broken nose,
29:24
Speaker 2: who was driving the vehicle that the witness said they
29:26
Speaker 2: believed they saw Karen getting into. The New York Daily
29:30
Speaker 2: News also reported Robert Durst apparently visited the shoe store
29:34
Speaker 2: where Karen's Aunt Annie worked at least four times. At
29:37
Speaker 2: this time, he was dressing in women's clothing and presenting
29:40
Speaker 2: as female. Matt Burtbeck told the Daily News Robert Durst
29:44
Speaker 2: had also been seen at a homeless shelter, one where
29:47
Speaker 2: he claimed that Karen volunteered. Robert Durst was never charged
29:53
Speaker 2: in connection with Karen Mitchell's case, and though the case
29:55
Speaker 2: file is still open and can't be accessed through FOIA...
29:58
Speaker 2: We have no way of knowing if police ever even
30:01
Speaker 2: talked to him about Karen's disappearance in the years between
30:05
Speaker 2: 2015 and 2021, when he died in prison. I will
30:09
Speaker 2: say Robert Durst, when he presents as a man, does
30:13
Speaker 2: appear to resemble the composite sketch of the stranger who
30:16
Speaker 2: was supposedly the driver of the car Karen was seen
30:18
Speaker 2: getting into. Robert Durst also had connections with the area.
30:23
Speaker 2: But a lot of other people resemble that composite sketch.
30:26
Speaker 3: It's very general.
30:28
Speaker 2: And even if Robert Durst was in Humboldt County at
30:30
Speaker 2: the same time as Karen Mitchell, I'm still skeptical. It's
30:34
Speaker 2: definitely possible that Robert Durst committed other crimes, maybe even
30:38
Speaker 2: other killings, while flying under the radar for all those years.
30:41
Speaker 2: For example, in 2015, police announced they were looking at
30:46
Speaker 2: Robert Durst as a possible suspect in the disappearance of an.
30:49
Speaker 3: 18-year-old named Lynn Schultz.
30:51
Speaker 2: Lynn Schultz went missing in Middlebury, Vermont on December 10th, 1971.
30:56
Speaker 2: Police figured out Robert Durst and his wife Kathleen were
30:59
Speaker 2: living in the area at the time. Kathleen owned a
31:02
Speaker 2: health food store called All Good Things. And the last
31:05
Speaker 2: place that Lynn was seen was eating dates or prunes
31:08
Speaker 2: outside of that health food store. Also, Lynn had been
31:12
Speaker 2: telling friends she was considering starting a new life somewhere else.
31:16
Speaker 2: She told at least one friend on the last day
31:18
Speaker 2: she was seen alive she was planning on buying a bus.
31:21
Speaker 3: Ticket to New York, which is, of course, where Robert's
31:23
Speaker 3: family lived.
31:24
Speaker 2: Again, we don't know for sure what investigating police have
31:28
Speaker 2: done on all these leads. But at least on the surface,
31:31
Speaker 2: it does not seem as though Karen Mitchell's disappearance would
31:35
Speaker 2: have fit Robert Durst's M.O., Robert killed his wife Kathleen
31:39
Speaker 2: following domestic violence. Kathleen was threatening to leave him. He
31:43
Speaker 2: killed Susan Berman because she had information about Kathleen's disappearance, and.
31:47
Speaker 3: She may have been blackmailing Robert.
31:49
Speaker 2: And whether or not you believe Robert's story about self-defense
31:52
Speaker 2: or not, and again, Robert was acquitted of killing Morris Black,
31:56
Speaker 2: Morris was his neighbor, and witnesses said Morris.
31:59
Speaker 3: Was very confrontational. So Robert's killings, at.
32:03
Speaker 2: Least the ones that we know about, all appear to
32:06
Speaker 2: have been motivated by some kind of personal conflict. But
32:09
Speaker 2: there's no suggestion that other than Robert possibly going to
32:13
Speaker 2: her aunt's shoe shop, there was any kind of a
32:15
Speaker 2: personal connection between Robert Durst and Karen Mitchell. Also, it's
32:20
Speaker 2: been reported that Robert presented as a woman and wore
32:23
Speaker 2: women's clothing when he came into her aunt's shop. But
32:26
Speaker 2: the driver of the car that Karen Mitchell got into
32:29
Speaker 2: was described as a man. So what happens next in
32:35
Speaker 2: Karen Mitchell's investigation? In 2015, the family stated they were
32:39
Speaker 2: still in communication with the Eureka Police Department and the FBI.
32:44
Speaker 3: This is still an open investigation.
32:47
Speaker 2: Mary Casper told The Guardian that for a long time,
32:50
Speaker 2: part of her was still hoping Karen was out there
32:52
Speaker 2: somewhere alive. That she caught herself holding on to that
32:56
Speaker 2: hope at times, but at the same time, she desperately
32:59
Speaker 2: wanted closure. She wanted to know what happened to her daughter.
33:02
Speaker 2: And she wants justice, even if the truth about what
33:05
Speaker 2: happened to Karen ends up being horrifying. She told The Guardian, quote,
33:10
Speaker 2: we can't have both. We can't have closure without details,
33:15
Speaker 2: end quote. Police have asked anyone with any information about
33:19
Speaker 2: Karen Mitchell, contact the Eureka Police Department at 707-441-4300.
33:22
Speaker 3: I'm Katherine Townsend. This is Hell and Gone Murder Lines.
33:32
Speaker 2: Hell and Gone Murder Line is a production of School
33:34
Speaker 2: of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and narrated by me,
33:38
Speaker 2: Katherine Townsend, and produced by Edelise Perez. Special thanks to
33:42
Speaker 2: Amy Tubbs for her research assistance. Noah Kammer mixed and
33:46
Speaker 2: scored this episode. Our theme song is by Ben Salit.
33:50
Speaker 2: Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and L.C.
33:54
Speaker 3: Crowley.
33:55
Speaker 2: Listen to Hell and Gone ad-free by subscribing to the
33:58
Speaker 2: iHeart True Crime Plus channel on Apple Podcasts. If you
34:02
Speaker 2: are interested in seeing documents and materials from the case,
34:05
Speaker 2: you can follow the show on Instagram at Helen Gone Pod.
34:09
Speaker 2: If you have a case you'd like me and my
34:11
Speaker 2: team to look into, you can reach out to us
34:13
Speaker 2: at our Helen Gone Murder Line at 678-744-6145.
34:15
Speaker 3: That's 678-744-6145. School of Humans.