Latest / Motherhood Uncut / 4 Reasons Why High Achieving Women Struggle with Anxiety in Motherhood | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 4 Episode 4

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4 Reasons Why High Achieving Women Struggle with Anxiety in Motherhood | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 4 Episode 4 · Motherhood Uncut

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Motherhood Uncut.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: We are so glad that you're here.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Deb Rubin and I, Kate Kripke, bring to this podcast all of those conversations that are actually kind of hard to have around motherhood.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: We will be talking about things that make you laugh, that probably make you cry in the best of ways, that move you, that inspire you, that teach you new things.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we are really committed to this podcast because we really believe that nobody should be mothering alone.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: So come jump in with us, pour yourself a glass of wine, cup of tea, put on your running shoes, turn on the audio in your car.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Come be with us for a bit.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: We can't wait to mother with you.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: And she recently did a post on Instagram that went viral and it made it very clear to us that this is a topic that so many women can relate to.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: So together we break it down, we get really clear about what that means, and we have a great chat about it.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you enjoy the show and thanks for listening.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Hey there.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Are you a high-achieving, career-driven woman with kids between birth and 12?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: And are you struggling with that really tricky dynamic between figuring out how to both pursue your purposeful passions outside of motherhood and also showing up for your kids the way you want to and you know that they need you to?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Are you stuck in between those two things and kind of ebbing and flowing and overcompensating in both directions and never really feeling like you can do enough or that you are enough?
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: If this is you, I would love for you to book a free call with me because I can help.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: I have curated a program specifically for you, and I would love to give you the opportunity to jump in.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: So head over to the show notes, schedule an appointment with me.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: It is free.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: You have nothing to lose, and let's talk about how to get you to a place where you both feel better about yourself and you have more joy and less guilt and a lot less of that anxiety that's keeping you up at night.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'll see you there.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, this is Dev.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: As many of you know, I provide services like psychotherapy, parenting support, group facilitation, and public speaking all along the topics of deepening connection.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: The mother-daughter journey specifies in mother-daughter connection, but a lot of my talks are not gender specific.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the good news is that many of my topics are also very practical for strengthening partner and friendship connections.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: I just wrapped up my fall season of my workshops, but if you want to stay in the know, go to my website at motherdaughterjourney.co or debrubin.com.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: They take you to the same place and sign up for my newsletter where you'll receive fun facts and tips to increase your connection.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: You will also stay informed with any upcoming offerings.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Lastly, I have loved doing curated courses.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: So if that is something that sounds interesting, definitely email me at deb at debbruben.com, and together we can create something specific for your community and help build your parenting village.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: I look forward to working with you.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Happy podcasting.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Happy podcasting.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: What are we talking about today?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I take myself too darn seriously.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: What's that like?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Serious.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a great question from you because I think one of the things I get from you is your beautiful play and humor and laughter.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes when I'm taking myself too serious seriously, I just look at you and it makes me smile.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: But it is sort of related to what we're talking about today, right?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because um I had a Instagram post go absolutely viral.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it did.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so we thought today that we would pick it apart a bit because this theme seems to really resonate for a lot of people.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the post, the the it was one of those, what do you call them?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Carousel.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is that resonant?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Carousel.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: It was a carousel post.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so proud of you for knowing that.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's so not like me.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the title of the post was Four Reasons Why High Achieving Women Struggle with Anxiety and Motherhood.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe before we break down the four things, we can talk about what the heck we mean by high achieving.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe even why I created the post.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, tell me.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, for one, when I wrote this post, I used we in it because I very much consider myself to be um a high achieving woman in the way I'm gonna describe.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And for much of my life until very recently, that has really triggered and motivated and caused a huge amount of the anxiety that I've struggled with in my life.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say that I don't would you say I'm still high achieving?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well I would say that you're someone that wants to go big.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: I do want to go big.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's actually really important to break down that achievement doesn't equal success.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: High achieving mentality doesn't equal success.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: So the way I describe high achieving in my work is that women who are high achieving in the way that I'm describing it in this post are women who define them sense, their sense of selves by the achievements that they have in their lives, by meeting their goals, by quote unquote being successful, so that those of us who function this way are high achieving for things like the visibility of that, the reflection from others in that, the um the sense of self we get when we meet those goals that is lacking if we don't meet those goals.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: That I think is was one of the distinctions that you were helping me understand is it's it's a temperament that where the the inner critic gets really loud if things don't go as planned.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you can be, you, Deb Rubin, because you and I were laughing about this the other day, you can be someone who's very successful in life and not have that temperament of the way I'm describing it in this post and in my work that I do with women as being a high achiever.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning if something happens and you can't meet that goal that's out of your control, you are more likely to roll with it.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna have your moment where you're like, oh, that sucks, but you're more likely to roll with it.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Where those of us who are really basing our self-esteem and our sense on self on our achievements, anxiety shows up.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that's another big distinction is that this your sense of self is reliant on doing exactly which I actually think a lot of people can relate to.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is a and so and I think what we wanted to make clear is that high high achieving woman doesn't have to just be this like hardcore working mom that has her shit together all the time.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean I think many women who consider themselves to be high achieving end up being career-driven.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: So they're and end up being moms with career women with careers who are also mothers, but you can have that temperament and not be a working mom.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: You can bring that what someone could bring that high achieving temperament into their home life and mothering their children to their fitness and their extra care, quote unquote, extracurricular passions and activities.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it we're not just talking about career women right now.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think there's probably a lot of folks who would relate who happen to be career women, but no, we're just talking about, you know, that sort of the tendency, the the sort of this is sort of cliche, but we're look really looking at that type A personality, that woman who strives for perfection, right?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: The um the woman who has very high expectations of herself.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we're talking about.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that makes so much sense.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me a little bit before we go into the four things, um, of how you would describe perfection.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, perfection is perfection.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Perfection, if something is perfect, that means they're literally, well, first of all, let's just name that it's unachievable, which is why there's no such thing as someone who's a perfectionist that doesn't also struggle with anxiety.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right, because it's like chasing for something that you can never get.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: You can you're never there, you can't ever achieve it.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because the other thing that comes with perfection is um you're always someone who's a perfectionist or is looking for a perfection is always looking for the next level up of that thing.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: So if someone is sort of a if I'm writing something and I'm a perfectionist and I'm writing an article, there's never an end to the editing because I can always get it better.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Which is just exhausting.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's hard to really feel a sense of contentment.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like content is a bad word.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Which is so interesting.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think that women who tend to be high achieving want to be extraordinary.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: And what comes with extraordinary is not content.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because content can be seen as boring.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Or compliant.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Compliant.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: And they're really quite different.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: They're quite different.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And in my old rape age, I have learned that content is where peace and calm and love and connection lives.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I was spending so much of my life striving and having these high expectations and doing, doing, doing, doing, I also was not feeling peaceful and grounded and did not have the kind of deep connections that I now have.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's so interesting to break it down like this.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that some people, like when Kate and I, when we were first talking about high achievement, and you asked me, does this relate?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Do you identify with this?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't, there were things about it that I could identify with for sure.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: But that's where I got curious about high achieving, like what does that mean?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think this breaking it down is so helpful because I think there's parts within all of this that are very, very relatable.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes people can get caught up in language where they don't identify as that.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: So if someone's listening right now and they're like, oh, I'm gonna turn this off because I don't consider myself high achieving, I want you to know that we had met I had many comments that said, I don't consider myself high achieving, but these relate to me.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's true.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I also think it's really worth saying before we jump in that one of the one of the curses of being moving through life this way is that we, those of us who might relate to this idea of being high achieving, have a really hard time asking for help.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Both because we think we should be able to do it on our own.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing that happens is people don't think we need help because we've sent the message to the world that we can meet our goals and get shit done.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so it creates in new motherhood, in motherhood, especially new motherhood, it creates this dynamic where uh a woman who's a new mother might be really struggling, and we're gonna talk about four reasons why, but also trying to make sure the world doesn't see her as struggling because her perfectionism is driving her to present a certain way, which means the people out in the world don't ask her if she needs help.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not only isolating, but it's also a bit of a self-fulfilling process.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: 100%, right?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that questioning that message.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: I am I am got it all together, and yet inside I really need someone to come and help me because let's face it, mothering is designed to be done in a village.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: For so it's the whole cliche, but so true.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other more shadowy dark part is that we work so hard to present that we're fine and we don't need help.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, now we're doing it alone.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so find me a mom, a woman that does mothering alone that isn't struggling, right?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: So now we're doing alone and struggling, and you know what else is happening?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: We're fucking pissed at people for not helping us.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: So back to your point, this is where that question, what part am I playing and the things that don't work for me is so profound because you're right, the self-fulfilling prophecy.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: We've sort of set ourselves up to appear like we've got it all together and we don't need people, and then we really need people, but we're sending them the message that we don't need them, and so they don't show up, and then we're mad.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Mad and lonely.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's also interesting to think that asking for help almost seems weak.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's right.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so then when there's weak when there's a fear of being seen as weak, there's there can be, and correct me if I'm wrong, but judgment in when others ask them for help.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Does that come up?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, because yes, because there can be this sense of I can do it by myself.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you why can't you do it by yourself?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just projection.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: And right if listeners are interested in that, go back and find our episode on judgment.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because you could also go read any Bruce Tift book.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: We'll put a link, we'll put a link to Bruce Tift.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so let's dive in.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: So so again, the this topic is um four things that um four reasons why high achieving women struggle with anxiety in motherhood.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I did get um comments, uh, you know, I've had there are a thousand comments, a little more than a thousand comments in there.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Not one comment in there is negative, so I think that's really interesting.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: All of those comments were like people who've never felt so seen in their entire lives.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And many of those comments were women with new babies in that early stage of motherhood.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because infancy will level the playing ground, playing field like anything else.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Sure will.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's get into it.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, we thrive in control.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: We like to be can in control, we thrive in control, and there is so much in motherhood that is not in our control.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty much most of it.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, you know, I sound like a broken record, but two things we can control our own thoughts and our own actions.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's it.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: We can influence, but we don't have control.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: How many new moms do you know?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: This was certainly me in new motherhood, though I had postpartum anxiety, but how many new moms do you know that try to control sleep and eating and the house and what people think of them and right?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Our our partner's moods, our baby's temperament, right?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we just try to control all these things, our own feelings.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: We can't control our own feelings, they're autonomic, our emotions, correct?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we try to control all these things which we can't control, and then we feel more out of control, and that's where anxiety pops up.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a really interesting question, I think.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe with each of these we could give a little tip or two about how to manage this one.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the reflection being, okay, if I'm trying to control the things that I can't control, I'm going to feel anxious because the more out of control I feel, the more anxious I feel.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because as a high achieving mom, remember, I think I believe that I should be able to think my way through problems.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: There should be an answer to everything.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: I should be able to get my kid to sleep.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it and then if I can't, I have failed.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's something wrong with me.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the difference.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: That is the difference.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's the difference.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because someone that might not identify with, you know, this perfection mentality or, you know, being unbelievably goal-driven.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, my kid can't sleep.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm annoyed.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: This sucks.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm probably scared because one bad sleep might lead to another bad sleep.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm not gonna beat myself up for it.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think you just said it so beautifully.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: This is annoying.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: The the anno the the the emotion is connected to the situation, not to the self.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, that's a great desire.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Versus, I can't figure this out.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: I should be able to figure this out.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that personalizing of all this stuff in motherhood that's so outside of our control is a recipe for a ton of anxiety.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's so it's like the opposite of self-compassion.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's it's really so sad.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's a sad place for that we women do to ourselves all the time, really.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, around appearance, around aging, around body, all of it.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's this this disloyalty to self.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Over and over.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: So just as a little um plug-in here, we thrive in control, and there is so much in motherhood that is not in our control.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Do you so do you have a suggestion for a mom out there who's feeling a lot of anxiety because she is caught up in the tornado of what she cannot control?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: One of my favorite things is the serenity prayer.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Is I just it's like my mantra of always coming back to it of grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't control and then naming them.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: What can't I control?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's like name it to tame it.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: So good.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then the courage to change the things I can.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: What can I change?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Where do I have power here?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that list is usually pretty short, and as you were saying before, and and then naming those things and bring them into action.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: I also really rely on the Buddhist um language around unconditional confidence, meaning I am committed to showing up for myself in this moment and the people I love over and over without being attached to an outcome.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: That lack of attachment to outcome is so good and it's so hard when you're a new mom or whatever, wanting your baby to sleep or wanting your kid to be kind at the play date or whatever the thing is, right?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's so hard.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is literally the one of the hardest things.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: And when we give ourselves permission to just have a little space from the situation, energetic space, and just see it just with a little distance, we usually have more perspective because what we all know is that when anxiety creeps in, we have tunnel vision and we can't actually see the forest through the trees or the trees through the forest.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: What's it?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: The forest through the trees.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, so good.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I um you just made me think of something that was on the tip of my tongue and it went away.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna leave it.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think my only other my only other thing I would add to the sort of practices around this one is it is amazing how quickly our nervous system will feel better when we do access something within our control, and that can be as simple as feeling the bottom of your foot on the floor or taking a deep breath.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now, is that really gonna all of a sudden make your kids sleep better or have breastfeeding or feeding work or make your help your kids stop having a tantrum?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe not.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: But the point is that our nervous systems were set will settle.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Some of that anxiety will dissipate when we actively engage in something that we do have some control of.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I agree a hundred percent.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that it will affect the system of the house.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: I remember my youngest Tess, with it was hard for her to settle in the bed.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: And when I got in the practice of just laying down and counting my breaths every time, it would take like five breaths before she'd instantly fall.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: She fed off your nervous system.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I think to your point, like put a foot on the floor, control your breath.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: When your lungs tell your brain you're not in danger, the whole energy of the house settles.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Everything settles.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um, I think a lot of times when we're trying to control the things outside of us, you know, it's like how many times, I mean, I have this conversation with clients all the time.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of that doing is because there's some belief in there that if they do if if we do something right, it won't feel as bad.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, motherhood feels bad a lot of the time.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't matter how right you get it, you're still gonna have those moments when things feel really uncomfortable.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's the allowance part, there's the surrendering part.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Number two.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: We feel most comfortable when we are organized.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: We being high achieving women feel most comfortable when we are organized.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: And motherhood is chaotic and messy.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is that game of whack-a-mole.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I actually really like to be feel organized.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, f wanting to feel organized is a huge I think many of us want to feel organized, but requiring things to be organized to feel okay is different.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: This is where the high achieving comes in, right?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: If if I'm like, if my house isn't clean and organized, then there's something wrong with me and I've done something wrong and I'm not good enough.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's where the high achieving brain goes.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: If I have a plan for myself because I'm a working mom and I'm going to work between 10 and two to get that thing done for work, and my kid gets sick and I can't go to work and I can't get that thing in, I've done something wrong.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's where this is problematic.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where the anxiety comes up because it's annoying to have a messy house or toys out or our kids get sick, right?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's annoying and really inconvenient.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: But it but when it when it has a direct correlation to how you think of yourself, that's where the anxiety creeps in.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: So what yeah, go ahead.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Were you gonna ask me a question?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was gonna ask you what you could do to help alleviate this one.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: This one actually makes me laugh because, well, I do like a clean house, but I also can like relax in the messy.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember in the early days, on the days when I was home with the kids, and I knew that my husband was gonna be coming home, and he likes a really tidy house, not necessarily organized, but tidy.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: He likes things like shoved in drawers, and I like the drawer like clean.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's like a metaphor for our marriage.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, like he would we right before he would come in the door.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: I remember I would frantically try and like clean up, and and I was like, What am I doing?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I actually said to myself, Am I doing this to make the marriage better?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Or am I doing this to make him feel better?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Great question.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I brought it up to him, and he was like, You don't have to do that.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm gonna come in and reorganize everything anyway, because that was what I need to do to feel better.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a reminder of personal responsibility, which is one of the magic tools in a relationship.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I just made an agreement, like, hey, when you come home, oh, because that was the other thing.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: He would come home and kind of reorganize, and I would be annoyed by that.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then I realized, oh, he's just taking care of his nervous system.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna just let him take care of his nervous system.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: That was helpful.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now I will share uh a little bit of a um contradiction here, which is that I ask women this question often what three things do you know that you need to be mentally well enough?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the definition of being mentally well enough is like not happy and blissful and euphoric, it's like steady, grounded, resilient.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we're going for, right?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a difference between someone who will say, I need to move my body every day, I need sleep and I need alone time, and someone who says, I need to make sure the house is clean and the dishes are put away and my emails are all answered.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I am actually gonna be sort of an asshole here and say, What a privilege for Howie to be able to come home and take time for his self-care to clean the way he needs to.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because when a mom does that on top of everything else, yeah, there's no space for anything else.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I say that with all love for Howie, of course, but in general, right?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like that is where I think this becomes anxiety, right?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: And if in order to feel grounded inside, you need a woman, a mother needs her outside environment to be just so, she's gonna feel so much anxiety so much of the time.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because we can't have our environment just so when we have little people who are messing it up all the time.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's sort of the difference, right?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Between, and of course, I'm sort of making a general statement here.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Do your dishes.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Who can I'm not asking people to have a messy house, right?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: But when we defer to organization in order to feel okay inside, yeah, that's where anxiety is lives.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: It hides in those corners, you know.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it makes so much sense.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: So the difference being, and maybe I have a tip for this one.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: My tip for this one is um is well, two things.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: One is just to go back to your the more we can allow for and accept the messy and pence and canassis of motherhood as just being part of the journey.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: We don't need to change that.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: The easier it is to allow for that.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say before you go to try to organize something, do take it, take three deep breaths or drink a glass of water, or go stand in the sunshine, or do 10 jumping jacks, do something that tends to your inside before you tend to your outside.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love that.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because the chances of needing to clean up everything after doing that thing for yourself go down.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Goes down.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: I love that for another reason too, that it is it it requires a transitional moment when you tend to yourself, then you transition with intention.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not a habitual response, like must clean, must clean.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's I'm choosing right now with my heartbeat a little slower to do this thing to help the household.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so, and here's where we have control.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's a choice.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're not like I have no choice, I have to do this.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: So good.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Number three, we like to get shit done when we want to get it done, and motherhood is totally unpredictable.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, of course, these all running into each other, right?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: But this is like those of us who are high achieving, it kind of goes back to the, you know, it's like the organized one.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, I have a plan to do something, and I don't want anyone to get in my way of doing that thing.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm committed and determined.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: And if I don't do that thing now, I'm gonna feel really badly about myself.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that is like the unpredictability in motherhood.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's like every single day.
• 28:31
  unknown: Yep.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: That just is every single day.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: It makes me think of like, I don't know, being attached to like having a picnic in the park.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Really simple.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's the activity of the day.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: And how many things can go wrong just from getting to the park.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then once you're at the park, it's nap time or whatever.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like you missed.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: Or someone has a dirty diaper or it starts raining, or it's endless.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Someone doesn't feel well.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: And this actually goes back to what I think you said earlier, which is when we can let go of um the outcome.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: The outcome.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, it's hard.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: I almost want everyone to write that down.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm committed to myself over and over without being attached to an outcome.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's so good.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Write it down, people.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Press pause, write it down, come back.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you're driving a car, don't write it down.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I love it.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's reminding me too, and this isn't in these four things, but I think um, I think the another thing that those of us who consider ourselves high achieving really need to feel about ourselves is that we have the answers to things and we know what to do.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: We feel a lot better when we know what to do.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: We don't like the words I don't know.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so this kind of goes in, I'm like just reminded of the uncertainty and unpredictability in motherhood.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's in the air we breathe.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's constant.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking about that right now, parenting teenagers.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: So if I am dependent on certainty, predictability, and having the answers to feel okay about myself and my own body.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: See how tipsy-tursy this is in motherhood?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's like motherhood is just like, you know what, girl?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna teach you something.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna teach you something real important here.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Man.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so do you have um do you have anything for this one?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: For the predictable.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: We like to get our shit done when we want to get it done, and motherhood is totally unpredictable.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Or the one about not knowing, uncertainty.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that it's similar to what I was saying before, but I did just have a thought of carving out some time in your day where you can, you know, go on a walk and you know you have like a certain amount of time.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, this is a privilege, but like to set it up where maybe there's 20 minutes where you don't get interrupted.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how realistic that is for everybody, but I think that that sense of accomplishment can probably go a long way.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's great.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: On the other side, you just made me think of another, you know.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think what we're just saying is the more we can practice unpredictability and uncertainty, the easier it will be when that pops up in motherhood.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: And most of us, many of us, before we're mothers, we we um problem solve for that.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: We're not practicing unpredictability and uncertainty.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: We're doing what we can to not feel unpredictable and uncertain.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: So two things come up.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, I remember a whole stage I went through in my meditation practice where I would meditate on the words I don't know.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: I would literally say it over and over and over in my head, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, to get used to that feeling and to slow my breath down around it.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: The other is just take a different drive to work or the grocery store.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, switch.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: I practice simple unpredictabilities.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Brushing your teeth with your left non-dominant hand.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: I like just practicing it because the more we make room for it, the easier it is when it comes up and we're not planning for it.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm having a memory right now of my kids getting sick all the time when they were babies, and I'd have like my clothes on, ready to go to work, lipstick on, and then I'd go to kiss one of my kids goodbye and they had a fever, and then I'd just take that lipstick off, take the lipstick off, put on my sweatpants, call my clients, and like then just shift.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And like, yeah, at first I remember being like, why do I even have a job?
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then there was moments of like really leaning into like okay, this is what we're doing now.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: And like turn on the oven, we're gonna bake cookies, yeah.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and holding it.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Finding the and making that the choice.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm choosing to lean into the change.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's such a difference in the way we talk about things and talk to ourselves.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: If I if you say I'm choosing, I'm gonna choose to make the best of this and make cookies, that's different than saying I have no choice, I have to stay home with my kids.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now I have to make cookies or play with them all day.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a different vibe.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, which is very hard.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Very, very hard.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: But when we practice it, it will shift our nervous system.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's a muscle.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: The first one, the choice, quells, quiets anxiety.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: The saying I have no choice is what brings anxiety.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to feel less anxious, you can try on that different perspective, see how it feels in your body.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Number four, four and final.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: We tend to um rely on all or nothing certainty, all or nothing thinking and certainty.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Here we are again.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: And certainty is rare in motherhood, and most of what lives in motherhood is in the gray.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: You and I feel really strongly about this, that there's no one right answer.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: There's no good such thing as good, bad, right, wrong, always, never.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think those of us who tend towards those kinds of thinking and thoughts really struggle in motherhood because we we are searching for the right answer and the rigid, the the rigid clarity, and there is none.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is really when I have my biggest indicators if I've slipped into a place of trying to control my world too much is when I notice black and white thinking.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's like the first indicator, like, okay, something's off.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and as a little neuroscience, I know you know this, but we'll tell our listeners this when we're in a state of real or perceived threat, we're wired to all or nothing thinking.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's the way our brain is wired because way back when we didn't have time for first of all, there wasn't nuance in life.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Was Cybertooth Tiger, bye-bye, or not conditioned for war.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: So we our brains are not wired for nuance.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: We're not wired for the both and we're not wired for the gray.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: And when we're in a state of threat, it's gonna be harder to find the both and the gray.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: And yet our nervous systems love the both and.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna digress for one sec because this is one of my favorite things about helping people understand teenagers and really it's really adolescents, not teenagers, but um, is that when abstract thinking kicks in, it's the ability to have contradicting feelings or opposing feelings or experiences at the same time, and that that is actually the pathway to maturity.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: That is beautiful.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: So when our little kids, they're very concrete, they have to think in black and white, they need our abstract thinking more than ever to be able to hold space and lend perspective.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so, what we can the biggest gift we can give our adolescents is to reflect a moment where they're feeling on this hand, it's this, and on this hand, I feel that.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the end of the statement.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Just reflecting that experience.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's abstract thinking and that's perspective.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what a beautiful way to wrap up these four things because I think one of the things that we are acknowledging here can cause so much anxiety and motherhood for women who relate to some or all of this type of thinking or this temperament is either or.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm either a good person and worthy and successful and and achieving these high goals at these high standards, or I'm not.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we're saying, wait a second, we can be worthy and good and successful and competent and not know what we're doing in this moment.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: And clumsy and make mistakes and say things we don't mean and do all the things that humans do because we are limited creatures.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: That is exactly right.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think it's we're limited creatures, but what keeps us most limited is our limited thinking, right?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: When we open up to the both and we have less limits in what we're capable of.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that there's just this really interesting way in which, you know, the biggest contradiction I know I needed to work through this.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure lots of people listening need to work through this, which is you can both love your child infinitely and not love mothering in this moment.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, not love what mothering requires of you in this moment.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Those can be both.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: That is a both and that is that that is the two opposing polarities that we actually need to remember and give ourselves permission to have all the time.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you know, I hope if there are any people listening who relate to one or more of these, you know that you are part of almost 38,000 people who um apparently found some value in my post, which is really interesting.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: It kind of makes me feel like I'm a little bit famous for a moment.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: You're very high achieving.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that 37,000 following post, it was really interesting to think about.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, even as someone who's working all the time on moving out of this, it's like, yeah, my ego likes that for a minute.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then I have to be like, you know what, that actually says nothing about who I am.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good reminder.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Deb, I love you.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: I love you.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening, everyone, and have a wonderful day.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next time.
• 38:37
  unknown: Bye.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: Hey listeners, we sure hope you enjoyed that episode.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: And if you did, we would really love for you to share this with a friend.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: So here's the deal: we're all in this together.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: And as a community of moms, we need to make sure that no one is left alone.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you can help us with that.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Please share this episode or other episodes that you found useful for you.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: Please consider writing a review and rating this podcast because when you do, it actually makes it more accessible to other moms who might be looking for podcasts that they would also find useful.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we are so grateful you're here.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: And if you were interested in just taking a minute or two to share and rate and review, Dev and I would be so grateful.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for mothering with us.