Latest / The Christian Reeve Podcast / Margaret Mary O'Connor | The Christian Reeve Podcast | #122 |

Transcript

Margaret Mary O'Connor | The Christian Reeve Podcast | #122 | · The Christian Reeve Podcast

0:01
Hello and welcome to another episode of Christian Reef
0:04
podcast. Today's guest is a returning
0:06
guest, it's a second time on the show, she's a author and she's
0:10
all the way from the United States.
0:12
Her name is Margaret Mary O'Connor.
0:14
Welcome to the show. They did.
0:16
Oh, thank you, Kristin. I'm glad to be here.
0:19
It's a pleasure to have you back on.
0:21
And I was immediately intrigued. I mean, I was already really
0:27
intrigued when I had you on the show for the first time.
0:30
Because of a what you're trying to do as far as I being
0:33
Progressive in the church and and be just just in general, I
0:38
always respect people that are you know kind of on a mission of
0:41
sorts and and trying to invoke change in the world in a
0:44
positive way and you know that's ultimately what your first book
0:48
was about and we covered that in the in the previous episode.
0:52
So go check that out for anyone who hasn't listened.
0:55
But this upcoming book that you've got coming out.
0:58
I just I just wanted to dive straight into this.
1:01
It's called journey of a Celiac soul.
1:04
And okay, I always end up doing research on any guests that I
1:09
have. But I had to like really go into
1:11
a lot of research. This just to kind of, okay, I
1:15
know how this was sound, but I was trying to understand.
1:20
Almost like why you wanted to come on the show.
1:24
Like obviously I know you want to promote your book, right?
1:26
That makes sense. That makes perfect sense.
1:29
But I was like, what what's this about?
1:31
What like I was like, okay. So it's like a, it's a
1:34
food-related thing and I was like, that's cool.
1:37
Where is it cooking? But I don't know.
1:38
And then I just really had to go into it and then once I started
1:41
doing the research on it, it's like clicking and as I go okay I
1:45
get where we're going with this but I'm I'm going to give a
1:51
little bit of an intro before I ask you a question just because
1:54
I want to kind of give people an idea at least some background as
1:58
to what you're trying to achieve with this book and also the
2:05
importance of the ceremony. So according to the Cambridge
2:10
Dictionary Eucharist is the Christian ceremony based on
2:15
Jesus Christ's last meal with his disciples it refers to To
2:20
the mass or gathering of people in celebration of the
2:24
resurrection of Jesus Christ, his sacrifice and general
2:28
worship. Holy Communion is the part of
2:33
the Eucharist in which Christian followers receive the cut, the
2:37
host, and the cup, which is supposed to represent symbols of
2:41
Jesus. Christ's Last Supper where he
2:43
shared bread with his disciples Eucharist Comes from the Greek
2:51
words, you Krista meaning gratefulness and Eucharist in
2:58
Greek. Also means giving thanks or
3:00
Thanksgiving. So I decided to kind of like
3:03
tile that together. Now, how does this relate to
3:09
Being being Celiac, you might ask.
3:12
Well, I would like Margaret to tell in her own words how that
3:18
relates to what we're talking about.
3:20
Obviously as I've laid out there, there is a ceremony, this
3:26
is a very common ceremony Holy Communion.
3:28
The Eucharist happens quite regularly in when Church in
3:35
Christian church, but It intrigued me. as to what you was
3:45
the key point that you saying in your book which is that, you
3:47
know, There's a refusal to acknowledge this for certain
3:52
people. So certain people were being
3:55
excluded. So in your own words, what can
4:00
you tell us about this book? What are you trying to achieve
4:02
with this book? Okay, what I'm trying to do is
4:06
really explain my own Journey as a Catholic with celiac disease,
4:11
which is an autoimmune disease and my near-death demise and is
4:17
well, my own access to Eucharist, that's the issue, the
4:23
Eucharist, the host contains wheat.
4:26
And when I was first diagnosed, Back in 1986 there was just one
4:31
host that Wheaton host. Then about 18 years later, they
4:36
came out with a low gluten host, but the issue is for myself and
4:42
other Catholics who are extremely sensitive to gluten as
4:48
we have issues after eating that host.
4:51
And so many more Catholics, don't have that issue.
4:57
They've made. Be been diagnosed sooner.
5:01
I want 20 years. There's a lot of people have
5:03
gone 25, 30 years undiagnosed. So we had more damage done you
5:09
know to our well getting in the nitty-gritty intestinal area,
5:15
and anyway we just can't that host just will not agree with
5:19
our physical body so obviously you're not going to take in
5:24
something that's going to be affecting your health.
5:28
And what do I mean by health? Because this whole issue of
5:34
celiac disease has just I'm living with an autoimmune
5:39
disease and yet people think of it as some type of fad diet and
5:45
I think what the main problem is.
5:48
You know, when you hear the word diet what comes to mind right
5:51
away? You think of weight loss?
5:55
But if you have celiac disease, you have a medical disease that
6:00
literally has caused starvation in your body.
6:04
So, right now, there's no medicine or pills that we can
6:09
take to stop us from having issues with Wheaten food.
6:14
So we are on a gluten-free diet, but that died, it's there to
6:19
keep on our weight so we don't lose weight but it's very hard.
6:24
Like I 20 years undiagnosed and literally sick every day.
6:30
And then we have people seeing this as some type of fan diet
6:37
and that's only the physical aspect of it.
6:39
But even within the church years ago, people were making Aloo
6:44
Turkish. Remarks like, well, maybe we
6:47
should change the flavor of the host we should be serving
6:53
croissants and I mean, And I know you know, it can be comical
6:59
but when when you living 20 years ago but I'm trying to
7:05
bring that's where the issue is that the host according to
7:11
church. Law has to be made with so much
7:15
wheat in it. So are the gluten, that's the
7:22
protein in wheat, that's the whole issue.
7:27
Right. Yeah, this makes it easier.
7:30
I mean, okay. I wanted you to say in your own
7:33
words because I always believe in that whenever anyone comes on
7:36
the show, I think it's always better to have it in their own
7:39
words. And as I said, I did some
7:41
research beforehand and I think probably the best follow-up
7:45
question. I could come with you is, okay?
7:49
I mean you touch the key thing there as well is that it's
7:51
prepared. Especially by a so I guess
7:56
someone working within the church as opposed to just any
8:00
old bread. Like I don't know my naive mine
8:02
because I'm not a religious person.
8:03
I don't know how these things work.
8:04
So I just kind of naively thought.
8:06
Oh they just bring in whatever bread bless it, whatever.
8:10
But you're saying, okay it's being made by people associated
8:13
with the church. Okay.
8:14
Great. But that kind of speaks even
8:18
more to kind of the question of why is His ignorance.
8:24
Why is it that your kind of what?
8:27
Why, why were? Stumbling my words.
8:32
It why is it an issue? That?
8:34
Why can't? I think?
8:36
It's just because there's so many more Catholics that they
8:40
have celiac disease and their body.
8:44
They can take in that low gluten host and not have any physical
8:49
effects today so if it's the issue.
8:52
So we're like in the minority but we're like a forgotten
8:58
minority and unless I can And find a priest which I had for
9:04
several years that was very open-minded and he would let me
9:09
put it's called the pics. It's a little metal container
9:13
and it's it. Put you can put your host in
9:15
there. Like, if you're bringing
9:17
communion to the sick people like in the hospitals or
9:21
hospice, you don't carry the communion around, he let me put
9:25
my pics on the Altar and I would put a gluten-free food.
9:31
Get in there. So then there was no issues of
9:34
contamination, you know, because it was separate.
9:38
It was setting in the pics. It wasn't on the the plate were.
9:43
The other Eucharist the hosts are you know for distribution
9:48
but I had that. Oh my God, several years.
9:52
Then I had several other priests that were very accommodating
9:55
that way until two years ago. And we had a new associate,
10:01
pastor came in and he went along with this for about five months
10:07
and it was about two weeks before Christmas.
10:09
I'll never forget this and he said, Peggy I want to talk to
10:14
you. I said, all right what do you
10:16
want? Father and he said we have to
10:19
talk outside. This is in December.
10:22
I said what outside? Yes.
10:25
So as soon as we go outside, he says, Peg.
10:29
I no longer can give you your host your gluten-free host.
10:34
Okay? Well, of course, I was like,
10:36
whoa, what I said, I said who's doing this.
10:41
I said, is the Chancery behind this?
10:44
Because I've been picketing against priests sexual abuse.
10:48
I mean, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, right, right Anna.
10:52
He just looked at me and he says, I don't know you and I
10:55
said, I said what? And never raised his voice.
10:59
I don't know. You, I said, look at father.
11:01
You've only been giving me this communion for the last 5-6
11:04
months. So I said, father, we're going
11:08
to end this right now before I say something.
11:11
So I had to go back in the church, basically get my picks
11:14
off of The Altar and I mean, I was livid inside to say the
11:18
least. So I called and I got Got to
11:22
talk to him the following Tuesday.
11:26
And I said, look at father, let's cut right to the chase.
11:29
I said just tell me who is telling you that you can no
11:34
longer give me my communion. And there was still all these
11:40
pauses and I said, this is my spiritual life and you're no
11:45
longer going to help me. Now you're going to tell me
11:49
right now and then finally well it was me and I said well, why
11:57
would you ever do something like that?
12:00
And he said, well, My conscience and I said what he said.
12:07
Yes, I am breaking Church law, giving you that gluten-free
12:12
communion host. Well then of course, I was more
12:16
limited. So, I said, we'll wait a minute,
12:20
let me understand this. You're going to let me Swinging
12:24
out here in the wind wing when and your conscience is fine and
12:31
dandy so you can get a good night's sleep, but I'm not going
12:34
to be able to receive communion. And now you have to remember,
12:38
I'm talking to him over the phone.
12:40
His comment back to me was well, Peg am so glad you understand.
12:47
And I just hung up the phone, I mean, I still don't understand
12:53
it. This, this is a man that wants
12:56
to be some type of a perfect priest.
13:00
And yet he is now that he's following man-made law, all
13:07
these laws, excuse me. All these laws that are called
13:13
canon law, they're man-made law. And when you go back into our
13:18
church and you think of what did Jesus do, he was healing people
13:22
left and right. So, their health was of
13:26
importance to him and hear this man.
13:30
This so-called man of God is going to prevent me from
13:35
receiving my Eucharist because he is breaking natch.
13:40
Jesus is law, but he's breaking man-made law.
13:45
So it's it is, it's very sickening, it's unbelievable.
13:52
It's it's disheartening. So basically for the last two
13:57
years now I haven't I haven't been able to receive communion
14:02
and then I knew this even gave me more incentive to write this
14:07
book. No, not revenged.
14:11
My brother's note to get out the particulars of this issue.
14:18
So then I thought, well, I I there are some other open-minded
14:23
priest but I thought, no, I don't want to get them in
14:25
trouble, so I'm not going to even Broach this issue with
14:29
them. I had to take a guess.
14:33
I would say. Okay, I know how this is going
14:37
to sound but I'll frame it in this way.
14:39
This is like a quote-unquote political move which sounds
14:44
stupid when you're talking about politics but there's plenty of
14:47
politics in history. Sorry in the church in religion
14:51
and there has been for hundreds of years and there continues to
14:54
be because the one thing we always seem to forget is that,
14:57
you know, People are people. People are selfish people make
15:04
up their own stuff as they go along.
15:07
Look, I'm not religious person. I'm a very open-minded person.
15:12
I'd probably describe myself as being like, very spiritual, I'm
15:15
very open-minded. I kind of pick and choose cry.
15:18
What I like, what? I don't like from from all
15:20
religions. But not, no, just no, just
15:22
spirituality and, but all religions, I think they all have
15:25
value. And I've met a lot of religious
15:29
people over the years. I've met people The you know,
15:31
really open-minded. Brilliant, you know, I agree
15:33
with I've met other people that I clash with and my ethos has
15:37
always kind of been just believe what you want and just don't
15:40
hurt people and then that's, that's fine.
15:42
You know what I mean? I don't think it really matters,
15:44
but when I hear stuff like this and it's funny because I had a
15:49
conversation with my housemate just before I came on to do this
15:53
podcast today and we were talking about religion and I
15:56
said if there is a God, I don't think that God would care at all
16:07
if you have your communion or Eucharist and it's gluten free
16:13
or if you go to church on a Sunday or you don't like I think
16:18
God cares about following things.
16:20
Are you a good person? When you make mistakes, do you
16:25
own them and learn from them and move on?
16:28
Are you generous of your heart and Soul and mind.
16:33
Are you thankful for what you have?
16:35
You know, do you overcome things?
16:40
Yeah, those are the kind of things.
16:41
I think if, if indeed religion is is genuine and stuff, I think
16:45
those are the things people should be focusing on not,
16:49
whether or not the bread is gluten-free or not.
16:52
Which leads me on to the more pressing issue here, is that it
16:56
is a political move. I think it's more logical that
16:59
look in the church. You are a controversial figure.
17:03
Figure like your, your last book was controversial.
17:06
This book is I think it's controversial from the
17:10
perspective of. You're trying to change
17:13
something that doesn't want to be changed.
17:16
IE this institution, the Catholic church has been around
17:19
for hundreds of years, they're very reluctant to change.
17:22
Not everywhere. As you said, there are some very
17:25
open-minded people who, you know.
17:29
Well, they're open to things. They're like, yeah, sure that's
17:31
no problem. And then there's other people
17:33
that are like, no, it has to be down.
17:35
Like this, it's always been done like this.
17:37
So maybe there are just Stopping people, but I think in this
17:41
instance, this is someone who knows of your Works.
17:45
Knows what you're trying to do and disagrees with it, but
17:49
rather than having the guts to just say that they make up some
17:54
nonsense about, oh, yeah, no, we can't give that to you because
17:58
you know, it's it's just doesn't work, it's a me because that
18:04
when I when I when I delve into this when I did the research for
18:08
this and I just sat and I thought about it for a second, I
18:10
thought this is ridiculous like okay with like if we just if we
18:14
strip away all Agendas for a second and we just look at the
18:20
facts. What you're literally asking is,
18:22
hey, when we do this this, this Eucharist.
18:25
Could you just prepare some other bread as well?
18:28
That's gluten-free. And it'd be like yeah sure you
18:32
know if you've got like a baker that you've hired for this, I
18:35
don't know how this works but let's assume that's the way.
18:38
Is it really that taxing to just make some bread?
18:41
That's gluten-free, make some bread that's gluten has gluten
18:45
in it? Is it that taxing?
18:46
I just didn't have it. I look at it from a basic
18:48
perspective and go is that such a big deal and to hear that
18:52
you've had the law aspect. That's the whole stickler.
18:56
It's the law aspect. I just see this guess lighting.
19:00
That's that's just them trying to tell you something that just
19:03
is nonsense. And, and I thought from the,
19:07
I'll be the Devil's Advocate. When my pics was on the altar
19:11
with whatever priest was there, you know, at the consecration,
19:16
even though they're presiding in Jesus presence, it's Jesus
19:20
himself. That's changing that form that
19:25
material into his own body into the Eucharist.
19:29
So So it's either going to be changed by Jesus or it isn't
19:34
going to be changed by Jesus. So, what's the issue?
19:42
I know it's II. Again, I go back to my previous
19:48
point. I honestly think people in the
19:50
church are either fearful of you intimidated, or they worry by
19:57
being associated with you. There's like, there's going to
19:59
be this issue, which look, I mean, you just pushing, you
20:05
know, your last book was about pushing for A quality, you know,
20:08
that for women, something in in the church which the in general
20:12
in life, there should just be equality, they just should be
20:16
because that's just right. You know, in if it's not equal
20:20
it's not right? And with this in a way it's kind
20:24
of saying the same thing it's still about equality.
20:26
It's like well why is this stubbornness that?
20:30
What why does it have to be done this way?
20:34
If it was just a like a normal person that just didn't have
20:37
agendas and was just trying to be a good priest or whatever
20:40
they just be like, oh okay, yeah, no worries.
20:42
I'll next time, I do get make the audience.
20:46
I'll make sure there's gluten-free bread or I don't
20:48
know. I'll go down the supermarket and
20:51
get some and and bless it. Or, I don't know.
20:54
This is it really such a big deal to do that but I again I
20:58
think it's because you're trying to invoke change and some people
21:02
don't like that some people fear change.
21:03
Change. Some people are desperately
21:08
trying to clear your grasp control of something, maybe it's
21:12
something like that and I'm caught in the middle of it all.
21:18
Yeah but I mean as long as you're fighting the good fight
21:23
and pushing this, I mean, It's actually, I will ask one last
21:27
question on this is their kind of like, a general response
21:31
because obviously, this is a local level.
21:32
So this is your, your local pet store or something, right?
21:36
That's that's refusing this, but have you looked at it from a
21:39
higher level? Is there like an official?
21:42
I don't know, ruling on. This is there like is this an
21:45
issue elsewhere? It's actually the official
21:48
ruling, it's all taken care of through canon law, that that
21:52
host has to have so much week to it.
21:55
So then when they finally came up about 18 years later with the
21:59
low-gluten host, they figured well then this issue is taken
22:05
care of. And of course, it wasn't
22:08
completely taken care of. Even though our numbers are
22:11
smaller than so many other Catholics would celiac disease.
22:15
The can, you know, the low-gluten host they don't have
22:19
issues with so again, it's just like we're a forgotten part of
22:26
that but yet that's that's a very Source of our spiritual
22:33
life is, is our Eucharist have you spoken to other people?
22:41
With CBS disease in the church and if so what are kind of their
22:45
thoughts and opinions? What are their battles?
22:47
Look like what they being told? Well the same thing there were
22:52
there was a group of us ladies that are were having the same
22:55
problems and the only denominator was we all had gone
23:00
several years so many years being undiagnosed.
23:06
And I think that's why that's the Crux of the problem, but,
23:10
and it's so many of them now, they've all died off.
23:14
Unless I'm like the one Lone Wolf, your Rockstar, we're proud
23:22
of you, you know, I'm a member I'm in.
23:23
But when the last episode of the podcast dropped, I think
23:28
everyone was was really enamored with you because I've got a lot
23:31
of female listeners in my community.
23:36
In the podcast community and such.
23:39
And I think they really just kind of generally respected your
23:46
Took commitment to this and and you know just pushing for
23:50
equality and stuff in. In something that you know,
23:56
again I still struggle to understand why it's such a big
24:00
deal because you know, life changes things change and if you
24:04
have an institution like a religion that inevitably is tied
24:09
with history and you know it's constantly Rewritten.
24:12
We know this is a fact you know things like the Bible has been
24:15
Rewritten several times over and changed for agendas and such but
24:20
something like, you know, having female ministers and such as you
24:27
indicated in, you know, in our conversation over history, it
24:31
went from there was just male and female ministers and Priests
24:36
excetera to them trying to kind of Go double back on that go
24:43
back, you know, move backwards in time and take away women's
24:46
rights and such and you know these days.
24:49
Yeah I remember this. This stuff hitting the news in
24:52
the UK. It was like a big news were very
24:55
thing that you know, there was beginning to be female, Bishops
25:00
and ministers. I think this was in the 2000s
25:03
and I remembered even back then thinking, like, I don't get Why
25:09
it's okay. I should I should really choose
25:12
my words very carefully here. So I don't get why it's a big
25:15
deal for the church to just, you know, pick People based on their
25:22
skill and intellect and therefore, you know, not
25:26
considered gender in that, you know, just just pick purely pick
25:30
people, like has this person worked hard enough, do they have
25:33
the skills necessary to do this and that inevitably has nothing.
25:38
NG to do with with with gender and never should do, it's to me
25:42
it's the same as going for a job.
25:46
I'm sorry to put it in those terms but you know it's true,
25:48
you know, if you're going for a job it should always be who's
25:52
the best person for the job. But, you know, ironically it
25:55
would be common sense. And unfortunately, I have a
26:00
ously, we still are looked upon as not being equal, so then will
26:06
I even consider that? That person for that position.
26:11
So the black and white of it is and I know on the the last show
26:17
in case there's, you know, listeners that didn't hear it
26:20
back in, 1976. The pope has his own commission,
26:24
the pontifical biblical commission and they in fed
26:28
actually came out and said there's absolutely no biblical
26:32
reason why women can't be ordained.
26:37
So here, Are we are always trying to explain why we're not
26:43
women priests in our, you know going back in the history when
26:47
you think of it. This issue is really over with
26:50
because what the church just said there's no biblical reason
26:55
but of course then the whole obstacle is getting them to
27:00
actually move and make that change.
27:06
Yeah, and just going back to my my job interview example.
27:13
I think there's a very is another link there which which
27:16
applies here as well. Which is that and ivory this
27:22
isn't me trying to be cynical. I've just learned this over the
27:24
course of going for jobs. Over the years, they are not
27:28
looking for the most talented person or the most educated
27:32
person they are looking for. Someone they can mold someone
27:36
who is one of them fits in the culture and that is exactly what
27:41
is the case with church. It's like, hmm, does this person
27:47
to create a phrase? Are they singing from the same
27:49
hymn sheet? Are they the type of person
27:52
that, you know, will go along with the things that we want.
27:55
And this is why I brought in that point about politics
27:58
earlier. There's definitely politics in
28:00
the church. There's definitely, you know,
28:01
you have those committee meetings and stuff and how to
28:03
run the church. Because there's money in the
28:06
church, you know, obviously it's given food donations and such a
28:10
Bentley, there's money. Yeah, I know and it's in some
28:14
ways, it's run like a business and other ways.
28:16
It's, I think sometimes run selfishly.
28:19
I remember I'm just remembering this now.
28:21
But I had a friend years ago who I used to work.
28:26
On a bar job with we both worked in this hotel and blah blah blah
28:30
and he took a pay decrease. He worked within the church.
28:36
He had a job in the church for years and I think he was a sort
28:42
of cushy office job and stuff, but it's about good, ten years.
28:46
And here's the thing, not only did he leave that job but he
28:49
also renounced his faith like that's how much of a bad
28:52
experience he'd had and The whole thing was predicated on
28:59
the fact that people within that particular Church.
29:05
We're very kind of selfish and they were very two-faced is
29:09
probably the word I would use and just we do things that are
29:14
not morally justifiable, you know, and you and we've seen
29:19
this over the years. I've seen this, I've met people
29:21
over the years that I look at them and I say, yeah, you might
29:26
be quoting. From the Bible.
29:29
You might be quoting saying, this is how things have to be,
29:32
but your behavior is not just like, here's a really good
29:36
example that there's a show that's just come out on.
29:41
I think, on Netflix, it's called midnight mass and it basically,
29:46
to cut a long story short, it's like a supernatural horror
29:49
series about a group of people on an island, but it's, but from
29:56
a religious standpoint, it's quite Right.
30:00
This is a little bit old-fashioned, you know, but
30:02
they're all very religious and that's the thing that binds them
30:07
together. And that the point that I wanted
30:09
to raise with this is there's a particular person who works for
30:14
the church in this in this series.
30:16
I've mentioned this on the podcast before.
30:18
So people will probably have remember once I'm talking about
30:21
here, but Basically, this woman, she's supposed to be, you know,
30:25
you're perfect disciple of the church, you know, she she helps
30:29
out everywhere, she's fully committed to the church
30:32
committed to the priest. All your ticks, all the boxes,
30:34
but she's an awful human being she, you know, she's a human
30:39
gene. Yeah, she gets jealous.
30:41
She does horrible things, she believes people, but she's, you
30:47
know, why she's the best Christian in the, this
30:50
particular church. And This is kind of what my
30:54
friend was experiencing in the place that he was, and I think
30:58
this is sometimes what pushes people away and the key is
31:02
always in who are the particular people running your church?
31:05
Are they good people, or are they not good people?
31:09
And that's what we're really looking at, you know what I
31:11
mean? Because it always comes back to
31:13
that, you know, whatever the religion is religion, you know,
31:18
whatever you believe is what you believe.
31:20
But know that any church Each you go and this applies to all
31:23
religions know that, whatever you're following.
31:27
Whatever Church, whatever, you know, wherever you go to do,
31:31
what you need to do, just remember that place is run by
31:34
people and you don't have to go along with what those particular
31:38
people are saying or what they're telling you to do.
31:41
Like you know you are a human being with thoughts and feelings
31:43
of your own and you should stick to that first and foremost and
31:48
and also just look at like, okay what they're saying does that
31:52
correspond with, you know if it's the Bible, you know, does
31:56
it? Is that this is there a
31:59
disconnect there? Because I think I think that's a
32:01
good question to ask yourself. Sometimes is one of the reasons
32:06
why I'm not religious. I go back and forth or on my own
32:11
personal beliefs but I definitely believe that when it
32:15
comes to having a belief in religion and stuff like that
32:18
things like who people can be relationships with or money or
32:26
all these kind of things. Things should not be in the
32:28
conversation as far as Telling people what they can and can't
32:34
do you know what I mean? I think it should always be
32:36
about giving people a good template for how to live their
32:42
life in a positive way for their own benefit and for the benefit
32:48
of others. And then also, Kind of helping
32:54
people navigate and especially when they're a difficult time in
32:58
their life, you know, that's why obviously classically people
33:02
that are dealing with alcoholism.
33:04
Hey, there's classically the program has a religious element
33:09
to it because it's trying to give people some purpose in
33:12
their life, you know. And and in the few times that I
33:15
have been in churches over the years and I have heard like a
33:19
minister or a priest speak what they're always doing is Linked
33:23
stories but trying to give like an overall message.
33:26
Okay. This is the message for this
33:27
particular sermon. This is the thing to remember.
33:30
You know, they're trying to encourage you to to study to to
33:35
look into what your to delve deeper really and That's all
33:43
good and positive and I think it's just about navigating this
33:46
and trying to avoid the the toxic negative people that
33:50
sometimes end up in the church and and just find the ones that
33:54
aren't like that, you know, and of course, questioning things
33:57
such as how you've done in both of your books because you know,
34:03
there's no reason that women can't be in high positions in
34:06
the church. And there's no reason that you
34:07
can't, you know, be able to celebrate this particular.
34:13
Ceremony that you want to celebrate?
34:18
And and not have access to this this gluten-free bread.
34:21
That's of course something that should be done.
34:24
Then. I don't see how you could argue
34:26
otherwise. So yeah.
34:30
But that, that makes me want it to my next question, which is
34:34
what kind of progress have you made since what since you were
34:38
last appearance on my show but also in terms of just spreading
34:41
the message of your previous book which is called scandal in
34:45
the shadows. Like what?
34:47
Talk to us a little bit about the development since then.
34:52
Unfortunately, there have been no developments.
34:59
It's very sad. That careful wakes.
35:02
And again, I'm not trying to bash my fellow lady members but
35:09
they're just so quiet. They don't want to come out.
35:14
And again, there's so many the main issue.
35:17
I think really is there. So many Catholics still woman
35:21
here across the country. Don't understand this truth.
35:27
That there were women priests in our Catholic Church, that Mary
35:32
Mother of God was a woman priest.
35:35
And until they understand that fact.
35:41
Then and only then are they going to start you know, within
35:45
their own conscience examining? Well gee if that's really true,
35:50
why wasn't I told You know why have I been lied to?
35:55
Why has my trust been betrayed? And until that happens?
36:02
We're not going to get there. Won't be a like a Grassroots
36:06
effort. To, you know, demand
36:10
accountability from the hierarchy.
36:14
And again, here who's this heretic?
36:16
She's and it was funny. I was on the giant Cross is hard
36:20
to believe podcast and he came out with this argument against
36:25
women being priest and he saw in the Catholic Church.
36:31
Well, no, it wasn't him personally, but he was just
36:33
bringing it up. Okay?
36:35
Yeah, I don't know. But anyway, he said that the
36:44
church, you know, goes by obviously certain laws and
36:48
precedents and you as he good Catholics should follow them.
36:53
So it's not that woman because of your Womanhood that you are
37:01
not a priest. It's because you are not
37:04
following the church laws and of course he said, what would you
37:09
say to that? So I said Well there and then he
37:11
left, he said, well first of all I said they're their precepts
37:16
are faulty to begin with. And I gave like the five reasons
37:21
that the church will always attribute why women can't be
37:26
priests. And they will say that they are
37:29
in fat, ugly biblical in nature. And yet, new biblical research
37:34
is showing that all of those different concepts are all
37:40
cultural Prejudice behind them and of course, that's convenient
37:46
for them. They have those five.
37:48
Main points as being biblical and yet.
37:52
Now we know they know but they will not openly come out and
37:58
make some type of a pronouncement, you know, we're
38:01
sorry but the time people covid-19 how realistically
38:06
they're not going to say that. Unless they're in some way, held
38:11
accountable, this let's talk about.
38:15
You being labeled as a heretic. Or a second.
38:22
Have you kind of received any pushback, either from the church
38:29
in the states or Church of England or maybe in Italy?
38:33
The Vatican? Like have you actually received
38:35
any messages? Kind of saying, well what are
38:38
you trying to do? Here we disagree with what
38:40
you're saying? Like have you received any
38:41
pushback at all know, and I'm very surprised I've just Well
38:48
that's going to change. No I'm low.
38:53
I mean I respect you doing and then boom went out when I was
39:00
I'm good. I'm going to be honest, I'm
39:01
always a little bit nervous when I talk to someone who's really.
39:05
Just not. Not because I'm worried but
39:07
because Depending on who you're talking to and how open-minded
39:15
the person is that can kind of dictate how the conversation
39:19
goes like, I can see, you know like when I'm speaking to you,
39:22
you just an open-minded human being and you just want to
39:27
change things in a positive way. So that you and other people
39:31
similar to you can live a better life and enjoy their faith and
39:36
get the most out of it. That's basically in a nutshell
39:39
what you're trying to Cheese and I fully respect that.
39:43
I think that, you know, in all walks of life, that's a positive
39:47
thing. You know, I'm a massive
39:49
supporter of women's rights. I always will be because, why
39:52
wouldn't you be? And, yeah, well just come on.
39:55
Like, it's ridiculous in this day and age that we've got to
39:59
this point and that and that accounts for so many other
40:02
things, things race issues, you know, like I always just let
40:06
that ruled the same, you know, we're born into different
40:10
circumstances, we have different things to contend with things
40:14
like privilege, do exist in society.
40:16
You know, we can say that they don't, but they do.
40:19
And we've got a work together to try and eliminate those things
40:23
as best we can. You know, like a you notice on
40:26
my show, I have people from all walks of life, all Races
40:29
religions, you name it. And my I'd had to think about
40:34
this as well, like the type of people that I'm happy to have on
40:37
the show and I always look back at this.
40:38
I'm like As long as you're not spreading anything.
40:41
That's kind of hateful. I'm prepared to have you on the
40:45
show, but I'm very, you know, and I know it's because when I
40:49
had this, I had a guest on very early on, I think it was like
40:53
third episode and she'd said something, and she was
40:56
religious, but she was a born again Christian.
40:59
And she'd said something and I won't repeat it but and I've
41:03
kept it in the podcast because it kind of hit me off guard, but
41:07
it was her belief that wasn't. I didn't support it and she
41:12
didn't say it in a hateful way, either.
41:14
It was, it was weird. She said what she said?
41:16
But it was in a kind of, this is what I believe and I'm going to
41:19
explain why I believe this. And I felt like I should say
41:24
something, you know, I should allow that to happen because I
41:27
don't really believe in censorship but Some people had
41:31
said to me, you should have challenged that you maybe you
41:34
should have debated her. And it made me think a bit more
41:37
about my position on this podcast and what I'm trying to
41:41
do and who I have on the show. And that's the biggest lesson
41:45
I've learned is to always kind of focus on the intent of
41:50
people, you know, are they trying to ultimately put
41:54
something positive into the world because that's what I'm
41:57
trying to do. And, you know, I look at what
42:01
you're doing to do and I think it's positive.
42:03
You're trying to benefit people's lives and help other
42:07
people in the church have a better experience.
42:11
And I can, I think that can only be a good thing.
42:14
Let's move it forward. What's the best piece of advice
42:20
you've ever been given? And why?
42:26
I think the best piece of advice I ever been given its fat,
42:30
something witchy you even said before is that not?
42:35
Maybe exactly. But It's your own conscience,
42:40
your own heart and that you approach a subject or topic that
42:49
way. Or if you're going to give
42:51
advice that way and just try to be open-minded when you do it
42:57
and don't automatically just look at someone or something.
43:01
And you know, obviously label them in such a way that all
43:05
they're not going to understand this or their whatever.
43:08
So that's basically me. I my Approach again, it's
43:11
something very simple but hopefully it's very hard felt
43:17
that you know, you you're conversing with someone and
43:21
you're not judging them in some crazy way.
43:26
Agree. I think, I think it's important.
43:30
We don't judge people like this. This brings to mind something.
43:36
Someone I heard someone say recently, so I do volunteering
43:40
every every week I've done. So since October 20, 20, so that
43:46
right when the pandemic was in its midst, I was I thought I
43:51
would go good that I do. I've always wanted to do
43:53
volunteering and I love it. I really adore it and the CEO
44:01
basically. They do like a little morning
44:03
meeting every time. Like when you're sitting waiting
44:05
waiting to The day and the CEO will just go over things.
44:10
Like our, this is what's happening.
44:12
This is what how the day is going to go, blah blah blah.
44:15
And then at the end, you know, I'm half awake and then listing
44:19
but you know whatever. Then the PPE is going to be
44:21
this, make sure you wear your masks, blah, blah, blah.
44:23
You know, but then because we're a charity that helps like the
44:29
homeless and the destitute and people in poor income families
44:32
and such, they always press on, you know, You have to focus on.
44:40
Giving people dignity, you know, when people are at their lowest
44:44
moments in their life, they could be having the worst day
44:46
possible. You know, you got to be that
44:48
you're going to show kindness and it's weird sometimes when I
44:51
think about having to remind other human beings to be kind,
44:56
having to remind people to be nice.
44:58
It seems crazy of course, but that's the thing.
45:01
We're not when all that way. Inclined, I remember many years
45:04
ago I felt Like life owed. Me something.
45:08
I felt angry. As I why do I not have this?
45:10
But everyone else has this. But of course, true, happiness,
45:13
and kindness has to come from within.
45:15
You have to have a good relationship with yourself in
45:20
order to have a good relationship with the world.
45:23
But I remember this CEO was talking.
45:27
And then, you know, sometimes every once in a while you hear
45:29
someone say something and it just hits you, they gave, they
45:32
could be just having a general conversation in.
45:34
They say one thing and, you know, wow.
45:36
Yeah, she's talking about. She says, when people come in
45:42
today, just remember this, they might come in and, you know,
45:46
they might look terrible, they might be homeless and how good
45:49
and, whatever. But try to remember to look into
45:53
their eyes, I'll see their soul, don't see everything else, just
45:59
see their soul, see, the human that you're dealing with and
46:06
show that person The Compassion that you would want.
46:11
I just sat there thinking about them.
46:14
It's you, it's, you know, Because that's, that's, that's
46:20
what it is. It's a bit.
46:23
We should help each other. We should, we should be there
46:25
for each other. Like it was really cold here in
46:30
Manchester a couple of days ago, freezing's maybe - five.
46:34
I think it would just be honest. Yeah, they just been like a
46:37
snowstorm and then the next day, it was freezing and we have a
46:41
lot of homeless people here in Manchester some pretty big
46:43
problem. And I saw a guy early in the
46:48
mornings, like a Sunday, Okay, 9:00 a.m.
46:50
I see this guy. He's been sleeping rough.
46:53
He was at the top of these stairs to this, particularly
46:56
nice building, nice to find himself shelter.
46:59
He's got the cardboard down. So it's got a good base because
47:03
for those who don't know, if you sleep on a cold hard floor and
47:06
there's you could die you can because you lose all your body
47:12
heat. So the reason that you
47:13
sometimes, yes, the reason people put down the cardboard is
47:17
to keep the heat in there. Bodies and not not lose that and
47:21
not die. So that's why that happens.
47:23
So anyway, he's sitting there he was laying down, he's just woken
47:26
up. I think he's rolling a cigarette
47:28
and he's whatever. We're going to begin the day.
47:32
And I just see that. And I think about how So damn
47:36
cold. It is on that particular day and
47:39
I was like, this is just ridiculous.
47:41
And also, when you think of a piece of cardboard is so thin
47:44
probably. I mean, the cold is going to go
47:46
through that and I was on my way to get coffee and I just went
47:53
and grabbed us both for coffee, and I came back and I just went
47:58
to give him the coffee and, you know, see how he was doing.
48:02
So reminded him to get somewhere warm and such, and he was just
48:05
so, obviously, he was really thankful and happy, and he could
48:09
tell it, like, made this morning, But there was just
48:13
something about hearing his voice.
48:17
He was just saying. Thank you, thank you so much.
48:19
And God bless you. Hope everything's going well.
48:24
And it just really kind of humbled me.
48:27
I guess I just sat there thinking or walked away thinking
48:30
about like Yeah, we're all in this together.
48:34
You know, fundamentally we're all just human beings.
48:39
Trying to make the best of our situations and the best of our
48:44
lives. And we should make a conscious
48:47
effort to try and help each other.
48:50
There's a reason why guy on the streets.
48:54
Go go. Here's here's a suggestion for
48:57
all of you, go out and go to a homeless person, and go ask them
49:03
for like a spare pound or something or for help with
49:07
something because I guarantee you They will help you.
49:12
The pit. I've, I've met many people with
49:14
tons of money who are in a very good position, who would never
49:20
help anyone because they're so selfish.
49:22
And, but the people that are at the lowest points in their life,
49:28
Truly know the value of things. And appreciate them and a
49:36
grateful. And that's something we should
49:40
all have. We should all be grateful for
49:42
what we have work hard to get more the best.
49:46
We can get out of life and always just help each other as
49:49
much as we can. And not, as you said not have
49:52
judgment, not go into a conversation and judge someone
49:55
because, you know, another thing as well.
49:57
Just to wrap this up with a bow. Let none of us are perfect.
50:02
We all make mistakes we all go. You know, let your emotions
50:06
Cloud our judgment. You know, we do things were not
50:09
proud of, we just have to own them and and be the best that we
50:13
can be in a given moment. And I saw this recently try to
50:21
give everyone the best version of you, you know, no matter how,
50:26
what you're going through, how difficult times, I just try to
50:30
give people the best version of you, because I guarantee they're
50:33
going through worse things than you or whatever.
50:37
And they could, they could probably really use that boost,
50:40
you know, and I know I get comments sometimes after my live
50:43
streams and podcast and people reach out to me and say, Hey,
50:47
you know, I was going through a hard time and this really helped
50:49
and it's Me to keep going to keep trying to keep just
50:54
providing entertainment, whatever, and if that makes
50:57
people smile and that helps people get through hard time.
50:59
Then I know I've done something right and I still do, I just
51:03
don't know how people like that day in and out can be outside
51:08
like that all day practically, no insert to surviving the
51:14
elements alone and then for him to, you know, be so gracious to
51:18
you. Yeah, I mean he would be so
51:21
miserable. I mean, you know I think it's
51:25
just You know what it is? It's kindness and well I didn't
51:30
tell I know it sounds like he's telling that story to make
51:33
themselves sound like a great person.
51:35
Like no, I the what I try to do is I try to make it a big part
51:42
of my life helping people because one thing I've noticed
51:45
about life is that it continually froze.
51:48
You opportunities not just to get things but also to help
51:52
people and you've always got a choice.
51:56
Yes, and if you genuinely just don't have the time, don't have.
51:59
The means whatever. No worries.
52:00
There's no need to feel bad about that, but if you can help
52:03
someone either with your time or with your money or emotional
52:08
support or something, generally, I think it said, the best thing
52:13
to do is to help that person because you never know how much
52:20
that means to that person and also You could change their life
52:26
with that, you know, it's something as small as just being
52:31
there for someone, for ten minutes to help him get through
52:33
something, or given someone a fiver, or, I don't know, like
52:37
something as small as that can, can begin a chain of events that
52:41
can completely transform like a sea change, because no one has
52:46
really stopped before to you know, like you said to, how are
52:51
you, you know. Yeah, yeah.
52:52
Do even that even Can can be a big thing.
52:56
You know, people talk a lot about the mental health of
52:59
people? Dealing with with homelessness
53:02
and such yeah, that there's a lot of mental health problems of
53:04
people are going through and a lot of that can be things like
53:09
depression and loneliness. People don't think about that,
53:11
like it's good to just have conversations with people and
53:14
you sometimes see that pictures of Keanu Reeves from back in the
53:17
day? Only to sit in on a sidewalk
53:19
somewhere in America, having a beer with a homeless guy and
53:22
just chatting and stuff because I'm people people that here's
53:25
the thing. People are like, oh wow, that's
53:27
amazing. Look at hit like Keanu Reeves.
53:30
This big mess. Big Hollywood actor, ham sitting
53:32
here having a beer with this guy, and it's like, you know,
53:34
it's not really amazing, it's just normal.
53:37
It's just Keanu, Reeves hasn't forgotten that he's just a
53:40
normal human being just like the rest of us.
53:43
And that's what it always comes down to, you know, nothing that
53:47
you do in life makes you better than any other human being.
53:52
And I work was ruled to say and To be honest, the things that I
54:00
look out for things that impressed me is the kindness
54:02
people their generosity, that's what impresses me.
54:06
I don't care how much money you have, what title you have like
54:10
none of that stuff, whatever, impress me.
54:12
But if you if you go out of your way for other people and you're
54:15
and you're generous with your time and your experience and
54:18
your money and everything and then you're a real person.
54:23
Yeah, that's something to be respected and applauded, I think
54:26
and, gosh, I could ask you questions all day but I do have
54:34
a couple of interesting questions that I've sort of
54:36
created recently sort of his generic questions but also to
54:41
kind of can get people thinking a little bit more and Because I
54:50
like trying to get people to tap into people's knowledge.
54:55
If you could travel back in time and tell your younger self, one
55:00
thing, what would it be? It would be not to worry so much
55:09
about what other people think of you.
55:12
And I know that's the probably heard that a million times, but
55:15
it's the truth, simple and effective.
55:18
Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that.
55:21
As we draw things to a close for today.
55:23
Do you have any upcoming? Projects or final thoughts.
55:26
You'd like to leave our listeners with right now.
55:30
No, other books are are in the progress.
55:33
But again, for those listening, we have a wonderful.
55:38
If you're Catholic, we have a wonderful church and for those
55:42
Catholics Vatican to even says you can speak out.
55:46
You're not in going to get in trouble.
55:48
Come on, let's wake up. Let's see.
55:51
See, the reality this pre shorty A judge is going to be affecting
55:56
your access to communion, and you have an answer within your
56:00
own church history of women. Priests the Vatican has said,
56:06
woman can become ordained. Let's make it happen.
56:11
And that means everyone. Can you imagine Christian if
56:14
everyone listening to this podcast, would send a postcard
56:18
to Rome and just ask them, you said, there's no biblical reason
56:24
why. Woman can't be ordained.
56:27
Well, then why aren't you doing something about it?
56:31
Seriously and for those listening off so if you go to my
56:36
website your radical truth that calm, your reticle truth that
56:41
calm, you can look over my blogs and there is a petition there
56:45
for mother Mary, we don't want to forget her.
56:48
We don't want to forget how the church took her title away as
56:52
Mary priest back in 1927. So, we have a lot of work to do,
57:01
but let's let's get at it. Well, hopefully, this this
57:04
podcast helps in that efforts again for a second time.
57:08
It's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show.
57:11
I wish you all the best with both books and all your future
57:14
endeavors. And yeah, just thank you very
57:16
much for being on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure.
57:18
Thank you so much, Christian, Merry Christmas.
57:21
Yes, Merry Christmas to you too. And to all my listeners and
57:25
viewers. Thank you again, for listening.
57:29
Be safe. Be well, and I shall see you in
57:33
the next one.