Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Emese Parker on the Journey Into Motherhood | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 5 Episode 6

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Emese Parker on the Journey Into Motherhood | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 5 Episode 6 · Motherhood Uncut

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, it's Kate Kripke and welcome to the Motherhood Uncut podcast.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Here we are committed to making sure that nobody ever needs to mother alone.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: We bring to you wherever you are the conversations that we need to have to survive and thrive in motherhood, but so often keep silent about the things that make us laugh, cry, celebrate, rage about, and reflect on, the things that bring tears of sorrow and tears of joy, confusion and wonder, fear and gratitude.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: We want you to feel good about your mothering and to feel supported along the often clunky adventure of life as a mom.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: In Motherhood Uncut, you can expect eye-opening conversations with experts in parenting, mental health, and women's health, as well as moving and inspiring conversations with moms who are out there paving the way for their children.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: You'll likely agree with some of what you hear and also disagree with some of what you hear.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: All we ask is this that you come with an open mind and boatloads of compassion for yourself and mothers everywhere.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Pull up a chair, pour yourself a glass of wine or a cup of tea, put on your walking or running shoes, turn up the volume in your car during your commute or the pickup line at school.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Just show up and mother with us.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: We have got you.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Don't worry, I struggle with the word too.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Board Certified Women's Health Nurse Practitioner, Certified Perinatal Mental Health Specialist, Menopause Practitioner, and also a mother, a match that leads us into the wild, wonderful, and so often emotionally chaotic ride into this role as mother.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: This incredible conversation is for you if you're pregnant, newly postpartum, and likely even if you're already along the journey through motherhood.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you enjoy.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hey listeners, there is literally nothing that I feel more inspired by than working with women who are ready and motivated to take control of their mental health and well-being in service of their kids.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because here's the thing: in my work, I get the opportunity to both watch the women who I work with feel better, and I also get to watch how their kids thrive along with them.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: If these conversations motivate you and if you're ready to shift out of the anxiety, guilt, and overwhelm that you feel and move back into confidence, calm, and connection, my 12-week program might be for you.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to learn more and talk with me about if it's a fit, go ahead and book a free clarity call with me.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: The link is in the show notes.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Motherhood Uncut Podcast is sponsored by the One Clock.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: This is a clock that is actually like one of those clocks that you're gonna forever think.
• 3:07
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• 3:10
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• 3:13
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• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: You can learn more at oneclock.co.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Motherhood Uncut.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Mesha Parker.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's so nice to have you here.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: Glad to be here.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: I want to just let our listeners know a little bit about you because this is going to be an incredibly, for me, interesting, fun conversation because our work is so similar.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think anytime we get two different humans, two different perspectives in one topic of work, so much gold comes out.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: But for our listeners, I am sitting here, actually sitting on the computer screen across the world from Amesha Parker, who is a pregnancy and motherhood support specialist, award-winning author, public health geek, mama, and activist.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: She works in OBGIN as a board-certified women's health nurse practitioner and a certified perinatal mental health specialist and menopause practitioner, which I have to say, Amesha, we may need to take a tangent and talk about that today because I am thick in it, girl.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: With over 20 years of healthcare experience, Amesha has been specializing in women's health since 2008.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you are passionate.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: She is passionate about supporting and empowering women, promoting perinatal mental wellness and wake walking with women through various life transitions, especially pregnancy and motherhood.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: And as we talk today, I am really actually looking forward to, as I said, diving a little bit into the similarities between this period this pregnancy-related phase and this perimetopause-related phase, because our kids are different ages typically, but some of what we go through and what we feel is very similar.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Amesha's new book is called To Carry Wonder, and it's a curative blend of story and art with evidence-based insight aiming to nurture, inspire, and equip women across the four trimesters.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: We'll talk about that fourth trimester today.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: By sharing openly about the raw, surprising, funny, and even awkward moments of pregnancy and motherhood, mamas can take off their motherhood masks, better understand what they're going through, and gain resources to authentically grow into who they really are.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: And as I mentioned, Amesha, we are both longtime clinicians, sort of starting before this was a thing, right?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: We were like in there doing this work before this work was known as something specific.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I am so glad more people are focusing on this.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: We've both worked closely with Postpartum Support International.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: I want to make sure that our listeners know exactly where to find that resource.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: So we will have that in our show notes and we'll perhaps talk a little bit about what PSI does today.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: And we're extremely passionate about bringing open and under talked about, untalked about realities of pregnancy-related mental health challenges to the public.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: So with that, here we go.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Here we go.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Let's dive in.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm starting these conversations with just a little bit of a personal story.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: So will you begin by telling us your motherhood journey?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious to know how old your kids are, what brought you to doing this work in the first place, and how does that or does that not relate to your own experience in motherhood?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: And we're just gonna dive off from there.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, here we go.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, well, I have now three daughters, uh, eight, 10, and 12, which is actually remarkable to think about it, because when I first got pregnant and had my baby, I just wondered, oh my gosh, am I gonna survive this motherhood gig?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: So the fact that they're they've made it this far is very encouraging and makes me just want to tell everyone like if we can keep our kids alive for this long, so can they.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: So there's hope.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I um yeah, we were married for eight years before we had any children.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: That was intentional.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: I really wanted to make sure that I finished grad school and so did my husband.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then in the meantime, my mom was waiting, waiting every every few months.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: When are you gonna have a child all this time?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: So eventually we got her a cardboard cutout of a baby um and said, Um, here's your biggest, biggest long, here's your gift, here's your baby.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: And we gave her a cardboard cutout that bought us probably another couple of years until we finally had our first child.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I want to, I'm just gonna press pause for one moment and just reflect this thing that happens for so many of us, where we're getting this pressure from the outside world to jump into this thing, which is not a small thing.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and whether we're, you know, struggling with fertility, which of course a huge percentage of women are mothers, you know, people who are wanting to become pregnant and have a hard time becoming pregnant.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Then even if it's not a hard transition to carry a baby, the pressure from the outside is real.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I just wanted to highlight that as you tell me.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's true, it's true.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's because my mom loved being pregnant and her favorite thing on earth was and still is being a mom.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: So she was really excited for me to have that opportunity, but um, I wasn't ready.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: So neither was my my partner.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so um I guess when I finally had that little bundle in my arms, um, I thought that it would be a lot easier.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I but at that time I'd been already working as a nurse practitioner in OBGY in a couple of years.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, the first day we brought her home, she like screamed from from night till morning.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: And it turned out she had a milk allergy, right?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I was I decided to breastfeed.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was not expecting her to scream, and I just remember holding her.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, what is wrong with my baby?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how are we gonna like you're how am I gonna do this for 18 years?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Eventually we figured out what was happening, but I'm like, this is I'm not even gonna make it a day.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: So um it was really surprising, just all the different things that I expected about motherhood.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it wasn't at all like that.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: I thought I would be much more of an intuitive parent.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I thought breastfeeding would be easier since I have breasts hanging on me.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, just everything was unknown, new, hard.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, there were those precious, beautiful, special moments in there.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but there were also challenges.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: And when I looked around me, I just thought, well, am I cut out for this?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because everyone else seems to know what they're doing.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like everything I do is trial and error.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: And not to mention, I imagine that having a mom who said that her favorite thing on earth was being pregnant and being a mom, that expectation, I'm gonna love every moment of this.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I've been told by this well-meaning mom of mine.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're not.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: How can you love every moment of the crying baby, the challenges in breastfeeding, the all the things that are on the less pleasant side of being a mom?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I will tell you, I I had it, I had an easy baby, and there was so much of that early stage that was so hard for me.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: That that pressure, that much did that feel like did you compare yourself to your mom during those times?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I went, I don't know if I intentionally did, but I think I was surprised that it was way harder than I thought.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I mean, luckily she was there beside me and ready to help and give me a chance to take a break and was there to help me kind of figure out how this works.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: But it was still a lot harder.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think the world really talks about that.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and then that that made it's easy to feel guilty and wonder like, what am I doing wrong as a parent?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: What what what motherly instinct did I not get that everyone else had?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so this goes back to the perfect mother myth, like we're we're thinking that that we know what we're doing, it's all gonna come naturally.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: And when we find that we're not enjoying every minute of it, then we start feeling guilty.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like there are times where even now my kids are like tornadoes, they're crazy, they're awesome, they're wonderful, they're vibrant, they're full.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: And after a few hours, I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm an introvert.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: I need some time to myself.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: And if I'm not careful, I can catch myself starting to feel guilty, like, oh my gosh, is that bad?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: If I don't want to spend every waking moment with my child, and what does that mean about me?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: And um so in the process of um motherhood and then looking back on pregnancy, basically I realized that women need much more support in having realistic expectations and real conversations about what the day-to-day looks like from pregnancy, even preconception, all the way up till motherhood.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's just so much that is affected in our lives and who we are and how we look at our bodies and relationships and careers.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: And and so why aren't we talking about that more?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: And you are, but a lot of people aren't.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: I you know what I find really interesting, you know, these conversations are like, you know, you we would have these conversations over over the dairy counter at the grocery store, right?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: If I saw like the the the grief and loss, the cut all the grieving that we do, all the what's hard, all the those those types of conversations for people like us are so normal and natural part of the vernacular, right?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: We just yeah, and I would say most people are not consciously aware of all of the losses that come with becoming a mom and the grief we're gonna feel, right?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: We think of grief and loss as sort of a pregnancy loss or these big tangible things that we can see, you know, the loss of a relationship or the loss of someone we love who passes away, or the you know, the loss of a job, like these very tangible things.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: And yet when we go from being a single individual human to being a mother, you know, even just once we just conceive, it's like that, all those things that we have to let go of that we lose are real and bring up all these feelings.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: What what when in your work, in your experience as a mom andor your work, um, what do you see as the most common experiences of this type of loss that women have when they become pregnant and intend to carry a child all the way to having that?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: You just said when that baby's on the outside, when we're holding that baby on, it's like the green the losses don't stop there either.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a really good question.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like people just their freedom.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's a huge one.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and in pregnancy, slowly our bodies limit us in some ways, right?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: So we can't move the same way, we can't sleep the same way.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's a lot of amazing things we can do.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a time to become inactive, but we run into our limitations.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I still remember biking.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know, it must have been like 22 weeks pregnant, somewhere around there.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I still hadn't gotten used to just, you know, how much harder it was to go out and bike.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I remember we're we were going like around Cupertino.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: There was this like beautiful like trail in the forest.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then I just remember like crying at the end of that because I'm like so frustrated that my performance on the bike isn't what it used to be.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: And over time that bike ride got easier in one perspective.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't actually physically easier, but over time I remember even journaling about this, like, wow, I actually did that ride and I didn't cry at the end because I had started getting more used to that.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: This is a different season of my life.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna look differently, and that's okay, but it took it takes time to get to realize that different parts of us are gonna be affected that maybe we didn't expect.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: And one of my patients just recently that I saw um in clinic said it so beautifully.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, I'm homesick for who I used to be.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, that is isn't that beautiful?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like just captures it all.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's so, I mean, first of all, I was like the kid at camp that got when I was at camp, sleepaway camp as a kid, I mean, all the way up until like seventh grade.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it I the whole that feeling of I kind of have a prickle behind my eyes, I know that feeling of homesickness so well because it's profoundly somatic, right?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: That grieving for something that, and even when you're at sleepaway camp with all these friends and all the the pain that you feel for the loss of what you had before, when of course the reality is that may not have been all roses either, but we long for that, that longing.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's a beautiful way to describe that.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I had a similar experience to you on a bike.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: It was when I was pregnant, actually, with my second child.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we'd moved to Boulder.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: My I have two daughters who are 17 and 14, so a little ahead of you, also girl mama.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we also have a whole podcast on that.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we could so interesting and fascinating and amazing, all wrapped into one.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I have always um identified with my physical body's capacity for strength.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been a runner, marathons, I've always used exercise as coping.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's a trail outside of our home that I would go.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like a steep, I mean, kind of quote unquote, anyone could do it.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, an even trail.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember a hike I did with a friend where I literally could not, it was before people knew I was pregnant.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's the other thing.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't obvious, though I still looked the same.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: I could not get my body to move any faster.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And my friend, who was sort of not a super close friend, so I hadn't told her I was pregnant yet, was walking ahead of me.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember the shame I felt, like literally, like A, what's wrong with me?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: B, what is she gonna think of me?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like this whole wrapped up chaos in my brain of like, where did I go?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Where did that feeling in my body of strength, capacity, where did it go?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the fear that came with that, that is a real deal for people.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's true.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: It gives us an opportunity to think about like what is our definition of strength?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I completely identify what you're talking about, about our physical strength.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: And what's interesting is that you know, now I've been a mom for 12 years, which is feels very old.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Feels like I should be more wiser by now, but oh you're wise, girl.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: You're wise.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: But it is an opportunity to for us to think through like, well, what is strength?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's um what are the other ways that we can define strength for ourselves?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and that's where like I think having courage to speak honestly and have like being admitting that we're we don't even know what we're doing or setting our boundaries, or you know, there's just like so many other ways of defining strength beyond the traditional patriarchal definition of strength.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: But we I I we we grow up thinking that's the only way to be strong, at least that's how I did.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it's fun now to see that actually pregnancy and motherhood can give us a unique opportunity to look at life differently and redefine things for ourselves.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: And that's exciting.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, as you're talking, I am really reflecting on if I, you know, if I were to, I didn't have any when I asked you that question, where do you see the biggest losses that grief come out?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not like I was sitting here with a question, but an answer.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so clear from this this part of our conversation that one of the things that we're talking about is how quickly we will learn as new mothers during pregnancy and in those first few days, weeks, months of having a baby on the outside, how quickly we will learn that our definition of strength had to do with doing that.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: What are we capable of doing?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it's almost like we've confused uh confidence with look at what I can do with inner strength.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Look at who and how I can be.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if we're defining ourselves by what we can do, hike to the top of this, ride our bike to the top of this hill, hike to the top of this mountain with this speed, get this much done, um, you know, do these things at this level professionally.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, all that stuff, stay organized, all that stuff that's so and look good in the meantime, and look good in the meantime, and show up.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Say yes to people so that they're not disappointed, so that we can take care of everybody, right?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: If our definition of strength is based on what we can do, we're gonna feel weak very quickly because the capacity for doing just naturally and inherently shifts when we become moms, right?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love how you summarize that.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's very true.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's really is much about doing because that's what everyone sees.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so somehow we feel like we need to prove ourselves and we have to like check off like this is what we accomplished this day, and especially for anyone who's used to um like achieving things at work where things kind of like you're able to be efficient, productive, um, then it's it can be really challenging as a mom when very early on, what have we accomplished?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like, okay, I remember breastfeeding my child day and night.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's literally what I did.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I fed her, like, and I didn't do, I couldn't do anything else.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: I was so tired.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so if all we look at are, you know, these external check things that we wanting to check off, we can you're right, we can get very, very overwhelmed and discouraged with that season of life.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and again, overwhelmed, discouraged.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then with grief, I mean, if we're if there's a loss with grief comes all that other stuff that we can feel so deeply uncomfortable with, like anger, maybe even rage, depression, tearfulness, sadness, all those things that were like, you know, the bargaining part of grief.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, there's lots of different models of looking for grief, but that bargaining part that thing, gosh, we do that.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like what if I had, if I hadn't made this choice to have a child, would I be all that comparison, all that if I just do this, then this other thing will happen.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: We are full of that stuff in New Mother.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: I've been talking, uh, you know, my work has shifted over the years.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um just to sort of give you a little context, where I, when I was a practicing psychotherapist, which I'm really not doing anymore, but when I'm doing that clinical work, my work was really focusing a lot on the biochemical pieces, the really helping women understand, you know, this crazy stuff that's happening physiologically in our body and how that can contribute to things like depression and anxiety and other mental health challenges.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: My work right now is really looking at the way that these, you just use this term, these high achievers can be so at risk for specifically anxiety in motherhood.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: And what can contribute to that outside of this hormonal biological piece that is inherently going to impact the way our brain functions and the way we feel.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been talking a lot about this idea of hidden anxiety and how so many of us go into motherhood with these coping strategies, you know, who might be prone to anxiety because we have these high expectations of ourselves, right?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: But our coping strategies are to do more because it looks really good.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: If we do more and we can check it off our list, we feel pretty good, right?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Our confidence is there.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: We have confidence, we can define ourselves, we feel okay.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, those things don't work because of what we're talking about.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Our body physiologically literally is not capable of doing the same things.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're our mind is not capable of doing the same things.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're managing so much more when we have these little people on the outside that we, you know, it's like trying to manage that on top of quote unquote doing these other things to help define our sense of success and well-being, that coping goes out the window.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: And now we're just left with the feeling.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Very uncomfortable.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Very uncomfortable.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, in your work, and maybe we can dive into your book even a little bit here.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: I I guess I'm just curious to know if you take your model of how you look at this or the model I just suggested, or a combination of the two.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: What do you find is most important or useful for mothers in this stage, this early stage of motherhood, where light that's like the rug has just been pulled out, life as we know it is no longer available to us.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: What do you find is most important for those moms, those those folks in that stage in helping to move through that stage with some resemblance of stability?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: What comes to mind?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: You could take that a million different directions.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's a big yeah, it's true.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of things are coming, a lot of things are coming tonight.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think first, just acknowledging that their life has turned upside down and it has been destabilized, and allowing them to talk through, you know, the what they're experiencing, because many times they're just smiling and putting up a nice little front to everyone else, and they're not having the space to really talk through and be real.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the first thing.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: The second is practical support, like that's so key, right?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so early on, I mean, we barely have time to eat, shower, go on a walk.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like no matter how we are feeding our child, it takes time and we are sleep deprived.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so that practical support that that we can provide families is huge, huge.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's sort of a place in there, isn't it, where we can, that's where a lot of these sort of let's call them high achievers or or or women who are really used to doing well can feel lost, right?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: What how why do I I shouldn't need help?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've done these things so well for my whole life.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: So can you just speak to that for just a moment?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: What if someone said to you in the clinic or in conversation, yeah, but I shouldn't need help with those things.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like those are basic things.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a competent human being.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't need help with those things.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: How do you respond to that?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's interesting to just acknowledge the all the shoulds, right?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because we we have expectations of what this should look like.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it's nothing like that.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: And they most of them, most of these women that I've that are shoulding on themselves have not been in this situation.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so they don't know that it's unreasonable to expect themselves to cook for the people that are coming to visit, that they should be cleaning their house, doing laundry, and taking care of their child, and not really napping when the child is.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: And we just talked about this is a different season.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: This you you might be able to, you'll probably be able to go back to that in a in a few months.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: But this is a season where people are really supposed to invest in you and we're not meant to be moms on our own.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: And that's really tough for certain people who are used to not accepting help.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: But then I try to remind them that it's actually a blessing for other people to be able to help them as well.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: So it's an opportunity for um building those relationships over time.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: I am in Tokyo, Japan right now.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if we talked about that.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think we did, but I'm here for six months with my family.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: My teenage daughters are going to school here second semester, and have really had the gift and joy of making a couple of Japanese friends who grew up here in Japan.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Japanese women who have this is their lie, their life, right?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Never, you know.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they raised their, I should say, they've gone abroad, so they speak a little bit of English and they've studied English, but here in Japan is where their families are, where their grandparents are, right?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Both of them have talked to me about how bizarre it feels to them to consider doing those things on their own.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: So there is this interesting cultural piece here, and I'm speaking to kind of American culture, this idea of independence and you know, strength as one, the the shoulds, right?
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: What does it look like?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Should it need all this other help?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: And how different it is when the expectation is just that you will, especially for the fourth trimester, if not even in through that first year, have that support.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: Now, often here it's by family.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's not very common for people in Japan to hire babysitters.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: That is there's sort of this interwoman family system here, which again can have pros and cons, right?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: But when we look at ourselves in that sort of bubble of expectation back in the US or other perhaps Western cultures, where it's like you just do it, and you're comparing ourselves to that versus looking at all these other ways of raising a child within a community of support across the globe, you start to wonder why we have so much such high expectations of ourselves.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I've always knew that intellectually, but being here and having these conversations has been very eye-opening to me to kind of really think about and look at who who are we comparing ourselves to?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because here the shoulds are on the other side of the coin.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can't tell you how many women we have, how many women I've talked to, and we've had this exact conversation.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, not about Japan specifically, but about the shoulds postpartum and the expectations for themselves and the partners' expectations of that of that uh woman as well.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: And when we sit down and talk about, okay, I would say for the first at least six weeks, but really it takes about three months for anyone to remotely feel a little bit like themselves.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like the like that time, this is not the time to make your house pretty.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the time to be making your big five-course meals, which some cultures, you know, they they it's very elaborate and they spend a lot of time cooking.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: This is not the time for that.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: And when the when they actually try this reluctantly to pull back, not do so many of the house chores, just let them go, rest when the baby rests, eat when she, you know, when they can regularly.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, when I see them a couple weeks later, they're I mean, life is still hard, right?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's still early newborn stage, but they're just so much happier and cope so much better with the demands that they're running into.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna play devil's advocate because I have a different experience with my clients, not because that's not wise, and there's a lot of kind of truth to that when it comes to the bigger picture of mental health.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: But in my experience, I actually I'm sure you're gonna say you have this experience too, but I'm just gonna share a different experience.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't here's what I imagine might be happening from my experience, because I work with a specific niche of people now, when they slow down, they feel all the shit.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: So because they've been using without realizing it's using it, because they've been using the busyness, the providing, the doing as a way to cope, when they slow down, it's like a Mac truck, all the stuff comes slamming into their back.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm wondering what you would say to the mom who says, But I love cooking five course meals.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the slowing down, and again, I'm speaking the language of what these people might be thinking, slowing down and doing nothing, but taking care of my baby feels like shit.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say to that mom?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're listening to this conversation right now.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, and again, I want to just preface this by saying, I'm not saying that the the the answer is inaccurate, right?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: We have to be willing and able to slow down and do that, but I do know that that expectation to do that and within a few weeks to feel better, that's that within a few weeks feeling better is not necessarily what I see.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, what would you say to that person?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a really good point.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I could see how certain people would have that experience.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um so first off, I would just honestly ask, how's it working for them?
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: Really, because um all of that, all of those activities are really deep down, are just not working very well.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, their life really pretty much just unravels.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um and they're I mean, we just need a space to talk a little bit about what you described, right?
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: So when I mentioned that people are feeling um much better compared to when they did a few weeks prior when they when they let go of some of those things, that doesn't mean that they're not experiencing the anxiety or the the common mental health issues that and all the motherhood transition things.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: It just means that they have they realize that they might have a chance of surviving.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's a there's a some basic basic improvement um in their wellness.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I think that's what I was more talking to.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: But sometimes when we slow down, a lot comes up, right?
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think that's what you're talking about.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: And this is where I love talking to people about matrescence, right?
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: The mother becoming, though the woman becoming a mom, which starts preconception and goes for years, we don't even know, maybe a lifetime of years of mother becoming.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: So just because the baby pops out of us does not mean that we're that we have full understanding of who we are as moms now.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: That takes that take that's a process that's hard to figure out.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: And and so when we feel uncomfortable and we're not sure what has become of us and we miss our old selves.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think that's where it's helpful to remember.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we went through adolescence.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, some of us might still be going through adolescence, but you know, we we got through that that transition, and we will get through this transition too, but it's not nearly as straightforward as we maybe thought that it would be.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: I love that connection to adolescence, this becoming, this stage of becoming.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and seeing that is a it's because it's easy to look back and see adolescence as the stage of becoming an adult.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's and even is it not even necessarily a stage of development, but just that transition, right?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really what you're talking about, is that there's this whole transition.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the things that's so interesting, you didn't use this language, but I know I'm assuming this is what you're talking about, is you know, we tend to think in either or ways.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Either I'm cooking five course meals and keeping my house pretty and getting all my stuff done, or I'm just caring for my baby and letting all those things go.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what I was speaking to here, uh-huh, is I know that there are a lot of women out there who don't want to, nor are they willing to give up some of those things.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: And for me and my work, it's I find that when I'm able to help them understand that they don't, we're not saying don't do it.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: We're saying don't try to do it all at once.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Bring if you are like, if you know that keeping a nice home helps you feel good, if you know that cooking five course meals or whatever thing it is for them, that bringing in the support to be with your baby while you do those things, right?
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: That support can look a bunch of different ways.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess I'm curious as you bring in the stage of becoming this stage of transition.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like avoiding the word because I never know how to pronounce it.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: Can you say the word matrescence?
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: It took me a while to figure out how to spell it.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's the word got it.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: Matrescence.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: Matrescence.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: If we're, it's like that stage of matrescence.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering if you can speak to that with what I'm talking about, because I also want new moms to know that it is okay to, to your point earlier, you said this in the beginning of our conversation, to want to do those things instead of sitting with your baby on the couch.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: That that because I find that when women don't, when mothers don't want to give up those parts of themselves, they feel guilty.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so to me, sending the message that, and this is not what you're saying, but sending the message that you have to give up those things, you have to be willing to give up those things in order to be healthy during this time.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: That is not necessarily from where I sit, a useful expectation.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I meant when I said for my clients, they're not going to feel better.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: If they were to do that, they would not feel better two to three weeks.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: They would actually feel trapped.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so some of them, not all of them.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so, how can we talk about this where it's not an either or, but it's a both and, and that the support is so important in whatever way you're going to use that support?
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: Is it to have someone to hold your baby for you while you go cook that five course meal?
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Or so that you could take a nap, so that you have the energy to cook that five-course meal later?
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: Or is it like where are we getting support so that we can actually honor what we need to feel really good in our lives?
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: And for some of those folks, the the spending all day with their babies and not doing those things outside of motherhood is not going to be the answer.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: I love all that you're saying.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think that's that that's true.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um I guess maybe what I would say is it would be helpful if we got curious about motherhood um and wondered what that will look like for us individually.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's um again, it might not our experience of motherhood might not be what we thought it would be like.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: It maybe maybe someone thought they would want to be a stay-home mom, and then they are like, oh my gosh, this is not gonna work for me.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm ready to go back to work.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um so if we give people the space to authentically experience their pregnancies, motherhood, and we're asking more open-ended questions to help people process what they're going through instead of leading questions about like, oh, isn't this so wonderful?
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: But it's more like, well, how is motherhood for you?
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: How is it working?
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: What's hard?
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: What's what's different than you thought it would be?
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think we can help one another well process what we're experiencing and help us to think.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: About what our own values are.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: What are the values that we're taking on from our families, our culture, our society that aren't actually working for us?
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: And what are those values?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like going back to the five course wheel, maybe, yeah, maybe that's a value that's really important to them.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so some element of that is something that they would have to modify for this season.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: So they still are able to live into those values and feel like that's congruent with them.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: I love the word modify.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: You're talking about context.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's without realizing that's why I felt like I wanted to pause us here, I think that's what I'm saying.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because so many moms, the idea, and this again, I want to make sure that you and our listeners know that I'm not saying this is what you said, but I know that some people could hear it this way.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: The idea that you just need to let go of those things for this big period of time and come back to them later is it's like it's like that's if you take the context of what someone knows that they need and wants, even more than need, wants in order to feel good.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: That idea of just nap when the baby naps or just give up, you know, get just they may hear it as give up on those things.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the the door shuts immediately.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think what you're saying is we can wonder what it would look like to put some to to readjust, to redefine, to to shift what those things to to um you just used a word and the word left my brain, but whatever word you use.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: What did you say?
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: What was the word?
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: Matresces, no, not a presence, not modified, modified, matrix, modified or this stage of matrescence.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: We got both of them.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: But to modify those things enough so that you can both give yourself permission to engage in them, but have them look a little bit different during this stage of embodying and becoming a mother in whatever way you want to define that word.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because we do, it's the modification that's imperative.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: We cannot expect ourselves to do it the same way, it won't work.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's where we're gonna crash.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I'm thinking about myself, for example, right now, where I am an extrovert.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, I married an introvert, but I am an extrovert, and I need and want to be out in the world.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the idea of staying at home and resting, it was like that is not gonna work for me.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm also a very recovering perfectionist and recovering high achiever by defining myself by my achievements, like that.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm now 51, and I love the idea that to be able to recognize that I don't function that way in my life anymore, and I'm still doing things that I'm very proud of.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: But 17 years ago, when I had my first daughter, slowing down to completion, where I am quote unquote just resting and feeding my daughter and napping, no way would that have actually been good for me.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm not gonna go exercise an hour every day, and I'm not gonna keep going to dinner parties until 10 o'clock at night, and I'm not gonna keep my house spick and span.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: That also will work for me.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: But what does it look like to modify going outside to lunch with friends, to modify keeping my house looking beautiful, to modify moving my body so that I'm still participating in those things that my soul and psyche needs to thrive, but to do it in a new way.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: Now that I'm also a mother caring for this little human who needs me to not crash at the end of the day.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: I love how you're saying you did really good job pronouncing the M's and summarizing all of that.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: Good job.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I really think that you summarize that really really uh eloquently, actually, because what I think I'm realizing now is when we're on this journey, which now I kind of feel more as like an adventure, it has like the highs and lows and the fun parts and the not fun parts.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: When we're on this, um one of our biggest assets is awareness and self-discovery.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: And and we can and motherhood doesn't have to be something that where we lose ourselves, right?
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_02: It can be an opportunity for us to grow more into who we are.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: It can allow us to shed parts of us that no longer serve us.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so I remember just feeling initially when I had my child, like, oh my gosh, like what has what is left of like whittled away?
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like a rag.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: What what where how it happened to me?
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: And will I ever find her again?
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what what both of us are saying to our listeners is there is so much hope.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: There, there's so much creative creativity that we can pull into motherhood that will allow us to thrive in this season.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and so in this world though, um, it's easy to not notice because there's a lot of noise and expectations and pressures for us to behave and feel a certain way.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: But when we give ourselves the permission to realize that our own versions of motherhood is gonna look different than maybe than other people around us, there's a whole world of exciting uh discoveries ahead of us.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, two just profoundly valuable things that I hear you saying that um I think this probably will lead us into you just telling us a little bit more about your book before we close because I want people to know where to find it and what's in there.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: But two things.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: One is this willingness to wonder and explore about different parts of ourselves that we haven't had the opportunity to or needed to uh explore and wonder about.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: Those parts of ourselves that are more slow and steady and uh present and uh aware and reflective, especially if we're women who are used to being busy and doing.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: There's no space for that.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: We're just doing, doing, doing.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: And motherhood creates this opportunity to explore a very different part of ourselves.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: What would it be like for you to spend the mornings just slowing down and being with your baby without cleaning the kitchen or doing your to-do list or going out and seeing people or cooking or whatever that thing is that you think you need, I think I need to be a fully functioning human being.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: What would it be like to explore and wonder about these other parts of yourself?
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: Motherhood provides that opportunity.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then you talk about awareness and self-discovery, and then there's that the reflection piece, and this is where my bias is that we all need someone uh that doesn't have any stake in the game to help us reflect or help us get curious because we can't fully become aware without a mirror.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the mirror, actually, from my perspective, is usually not going to be your mother or your sister or your best friend or your partner because they're they have a stake in the game, whether they realize it or not, right?
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: They desperately want you to be okay, right?
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: But when you have a some mentor, a professional, uh, someone who's leading a support group, uh, someone on the outside that helps you to reflect and get curious.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: If every mother had that, our rates of depression and anxiety would decrease exponentially.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_02: Be huge.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's true.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's that support.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't need to be the all or nothing.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that are we willing, can we get ourselves to a place where we're willing to see this as an opportunity to get curious and explore about these different parts as we figure out who am I going to be as a mother?
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: What's it gonna feel like for me?
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: How am I gonna respond when my baby or child is in pain?
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: How am I gonna respond?
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: How can I get so curious on what it feels like in my own body to see my child or baby in pain?
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: And by pain I mean, quotes, crying or dysregulated or uncomfortable.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: What's that gonna be like for me?
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: And how can I respond in a very maternal way that's grounded and uses my adult brain and has perspective and all of those things that help us be the mother that we all actually want to be?
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: We can't do that alone.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: We can't do that curious creative exploration alone, from my perspective.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_02: I fully, I fully agree with that.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_02: I I just think we need our we need that mirror, like you mentioned, that thinking-feeling partner, um, that ability to ask those questions and look at our life in different ways.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's interesting because I actually was going through, I don't know if you if you know Amy Taylor-Cabazz, but she is a Maitrescence advocate advocate and she or activist too.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and she has a pregnancy motherhood focused life coaching training, which I just finished.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_02: And part of that is us going through that, being coached and thinking about how some of the things we talked about.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_02: How are we defining strength?
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_02: What are how are we looking at our values?
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_02: Where do we want to be from we look at ourselves now, where do we want to be?
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_02: But some like some of the reasons why we want to be point B is because of these pressures that we're feeling.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do we dig deep and explore um who we are and our motivations for picking different goals?
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: And we might actually find that our goals are different once we do that exploration.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: So it was really interesting coming out of that and thinking about different aspects of my own life.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, even though I've been, you know, I'm a healthcare provider, I've been a mom for a long time, but I haven't stopped and thought about some of those things in those new ways.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_02: And we need those, we need that type of support, um, all of us, I think, to be able to get to grow and to be in a different place than we are now.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_01: So beautiful.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: We need some sort of a partner in that journey, is what it's bringing.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: And exactly.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about your book for just a moment, because in many ways, yes, we would love all of our listeners to leave this conversation and go find a human partner, right?
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's a support group or CFI has lots of online stuff.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I will put a pitch in the in the show notes for that because that's a postpartum support international for our listeners, is really the largest volunteer-based organization across the world that supports folks as they transition into parenthood and motherhood and provides all kinds of free and low-fee support and phone-based and virtual-based.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: And we want people to know about that because I think having a live human, even if you're not sitting in the same room with them, to help that process is ideal.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: Then we have things like books.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, in many ways, your book could be a partner for someone as they go through this.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: Can you just tell us and our listeners about your book and give us a snapshot and where they can find it and all of that juicy stuff?
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: All the juicy details.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, so the book is called To Carry Wonder.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: And we call it my fourth child because actually I started writing it when I was pregnant with my first.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I had written books, well, books I call them, but they were little, tiny little books when I was a child, which those were my first books on like how to be kind, how to be mean, how to be sexy.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_02: I have to tell you, now my book has gotten better content.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's now about pregnancy and motherhood.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it's really designed um to help uh be a support there for people and to normalize the pregnancy and motherhood experience.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's goes week by week from the very early on in pregnancy, goes through the first uh actually a little bit beyond the official definition of the first trimester.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_02: So it goes till the 16th week.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: And my hope was really to write a book that I wish I would have had when I was pregnant.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when I started going through prenatal care, I felt that we focused so much on most of the time we focused so much on the blood pressures, the lab results, the fundal heights.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_02: And we, as healthcare providers, weren't really engaging patients or women um on the journey of pregnancy, um the motherhood journey, how that began.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I really missed that.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: I really wanted some to be nurtured and to be inspired and to be equipped and um to be able to laugh at all the funny, awkward things that other people were experiencing and to be able to pause and slow down and think about my own journey as I go through all of this.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what the book is about.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's there to hopefully help people authentically experience their pregnancies and motherhood journeys to really give them just some important information that I feel like we're not covering in prenatal care.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and what I'm hoping is that people can kind of pick it up wherever they are in pregnancy.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_02: So let's say they get the book at 16 weeks, then you can pick up at 16 weeks.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it maybe um is fun to start from the beginning to go till the end, but you can actually jump around depending on what the topic is that people are interested in reading about.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: So there's stories um and that I find are hopefully going to help them reflect or um just uh feel like they're they they are not alone.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's like let's talk about it.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_02: So some kind of an educational topic where they can learn about something that I think is important.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_02: So the book they can uh you can find it online.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's actually tricky to get it into in-person bookstores with the wholesale discounts that big bookstores are requiring.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_02: So it's online currently.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_02: So you could find it at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, um, Walmart.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_02: And um, there's if you're liking um independent bookstores, then there's also bookshop umbookstoreshop.org where there's a kickback to the independent bookstores.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: I will we will link to all of that.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I was as you're talking, I'm like, what an amazing baby shower gift or gift, right?
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I kept thinking, gosh, this is such a gift.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: And like it, like literally, literally, this would be an amazing gift.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_01: So go get this gift for those people.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you're not pregnant, go get this gift for the people we are um so, so, so amazing.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I want people to know where they can find you.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I know I think before we started recording, you were talking about running.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think that you run virtual groups for PSI.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just going to start.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: So can you tell tell our listeners about those groups and what they are?
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll put a link in the show notes to those.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_02: So um Postpartum Support International, like you mentioned, they have those free online support groups.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_02: So um once a month, I will be probably in a couple of months, um, be starting to lead a Thursday perinatal support group.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm super excited about that.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you go to my website to carrywonder.com, there's lots of free resources for pregnancy and motherhood.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then they can also find um different things that I'm gonna be starting online.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna be starting pregnancy motherhood focused, life coaching, women's circles in my area, and then also some um motherhood matrescence focused um group coaching uh periodically online as well.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_02: So there's different ways that I'm trying to support families and women.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_01: What a what a really amazing resource for folks, and we will put all of those in the show notes.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: As we wrap up, I always want to like you know how podcasts have like these really catchy last questions, what three books, or what you were on a billboard, and I keep like, I should come up with my own really walky one of those.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_01: I have not come up with it yet.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna put you on the spot by saying, is there anything that we haven't talked about today or that you think is important for mothers who are be women who are becoming?
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_01: I've already forgotten how to say it.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm telling you, my brain does not absorb that word.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's a hard word, it is long.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_02: So one more time for us.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: Matresence.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, listeners, I've been doing this work for 20 freaking years and I still can't say the word.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_01: So don't worry about it.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_02: Say it five times in a row quickly.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great sound twister.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_01: So anything that you're sitting with that you're like really wanting to make sure our listeners hear before we wrap up.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything that pops into your head?
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, well, two things, and I know we're wrapping up.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_02: One is uh related to my book.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't mention that it actually is fundraising generally for international justice mission.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_02: So IJM is a freedom partner and they are trying uh really hard to eliminate human trafficking around the world.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm super excited to be partnering with them.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um if listeners are listening to this podcast in let's say middle of May to middle, uh sorry, middle of April to middle of May, then the the book is going to be Fundraising for Blue Dot Project, which is amazing.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_02: They're um they're amazing.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so it's basically trying, for those who don't know, um, trying to raise awareness for perineatal mood anxiety disorders and reduce the stigma and shame, but that still is often with uh that.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but then going to a going back to your main question, if there's anything else I want to leave the listeners with.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think I just want to reiterate what we've been talking about, which is pregnancy and motherhood is it can feel hard because it is.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_02: And there is so much support out there for us to uh really grow in that process.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_02: And um it it really is a time where we can find ourselves, um, but it's also a time where we can be honest and where we can be real.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_02: And the more we're able to be honest with ourselves, hopefully that really helps us to really engage in uh in an authentic way with other women around us.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think when we do that, things change.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like we can change the narrative around motherhood and we can start transforming the way that society values motherhood.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_02: And that that all comes with like our inner work and our connections with each other.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_01: Amesha, it has been a total joy to talk with you.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_01: I have so many more questions.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: Really, also as it comes to perimenopause and metaphors.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe we'll have that on and we can dive into that because that's right where I am.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for coming and talking about these really important topics.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I really hope that our listeners utilize the postpartum support international support groups because I know that there are folks out there who don't live in areas where that's sort of common or there's play, you know, live places or even conversations about these things.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I want people to know that they can thank thank goodness for this now very common portal of internet-based, you know, virtual-based work.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I really am so happy to know that you're doing that.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, just thank you for everything that you do and for this book and for spending time with me because I'm like, I don't always get in my work now to really land with folks who have been doing this work across the same spectrum of time that I have.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just grateful to know you're out there.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for your work.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate it.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's been an honor talking with you.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're welcome.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, if you loved this episode and enjoy this podcast, please just take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review, and send it to one mom out there who you think might benefit.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_01: When you do that, you help to make sure that no woman out there ever feels like they have to mother alone.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.