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One Year Since the Passing of George Floyd: What Have We Learned? · Centrally Speaking

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Centrally speaking, is the Central Schwenfelder Church's podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: It speaks about issues that would be of interest to our society.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: In particular, it addresses how a Christian worldview intersects with Western secular culture.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: In the spirit of the church's founder, we take the perspective of the Middle Way, which is in agreement with the historic Christian Church.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Drake Williams, Minister of Mission and Theology at the Church.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Our website is www.cscfamily.org.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: We're speaking today about the events that have happened a year since the death of George Floyd.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: And once again, it's our great honor to have Reverend Keith Williams as well as Reverend Alfred Duncan, as well as Reverend Dr.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: David McKinley, to discuss racism and where we are as a nation now a year after the passing of George Floyd.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Let me introduce our guests.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Reverend Keith Williams has been pastor for over 37 years at Nazarene Baptist Church.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: He holds a Bachelor of Arts from Augsburg University in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and a Master of Divinity degree from Palmer Theological Seminary.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Reverend Williams has served at the Mount Olive Baptist Church in Glassboro, New Jersey, and has also been a chaplain and Bible expositor for the Philadelphia's Eagles and 76ers.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: In 2007, he was elected to be president of all the 42 states convention presidents of the Southern Baptist Convention.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: And in 2015 through 16, he was elected and served as president of the National African American Fellowship, Southern Baptist Convention.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: He's been well involved in the field of racism and reconciliation, and he's been a contributor to the book Removing the Stain of Racism from the Southern Baptist Convention, published in 2017, a book published by Broadman and Pullman.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: He's married to Constance and they have three children and two grandchildren.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: And they, along with Keith, his mother and grandmother, were in the Emmy-nominated film Unchanged Healing the Generational Trauma.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Reverend Alfred Duncan is a graduate from Eastern University as well as Palmer Theological Seminary, where he achieved a Bachelor of Arts degree and a Master of Divinity degree.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: He has led the Schwenckfelder Missionary Church since 2016.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: And before this, he was actively involved in the first Schweinfelder Church, now called First Worship Center, on 30th and Cumberland Streets.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: He and his wife Phyllis are involved in regular outreach at the Happy Hollow Recreation Center in Germantown.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: And he has also served as the chair of the Schweinfelder Ministerium.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm also joined by my good friend and colleague, Reverend Dr.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: David McKinley, who's been at the Central Schweinfelder Church for 19 years and has been the senior minister of Central Schwankfelder Church for 16 years.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: He has written and also preached against racism and has a number of good things that I know he'll share with us today as well.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: Gentlemen, welcome to Centrally Speaking.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: We're glad to have you back.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for having us.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's been a year, just over a year, since the passing of George Floyd.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it would be helpful as we begin this conversation about uh where we are since the passing of George Floyd, that we think back as to what happened when he passed on, and then what happened immediately afterwards in uh your churches.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: So let's just start talking very personally.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: Where were you when George Floyd was killed?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: And can you remember what you were doing and your immediate reactions?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_05: I do remember.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_05: I was home in the evening, and what I was doing at that particular time, I was alternating actually between watching CNN and Fox News.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_05: I do that because of the makeup of our congregation.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_05: We have people who lean toward both of those news channels.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_05: And so anyway, I was just catching up on some news.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_05: I don't remember, I probably was CNN when it actually came, um came on.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_05: One thing, when you ask this question, I noticed about myself, though, even though I remember some of the details, interesting enough for me.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_05: I don't remember all of the details when I first got the news as well as I do the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_05: I remember that because I was in elementary school and one of the teachers slapped me for talking while I was in line.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_05: I never forget that.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_05: And the Martin Luther King assassination, I remember well when I heard about that because my father approached me and told me about it.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_05: I was downstairs in my living room.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_05: But anyway, if I can just talk about this for a moment, what I also do remember is that the deepest anxiety that I had about this whole thing was actually when I heard him cry out for his mother.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_05: That may be during the first time that I saw it, maybe later that evening, maybe even the next day, I don't remember, but that's when the thing uh hit me, um, hit me the hardest.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_05: Another thing I want to say that I remember is maybe it was a day later or a few days later, I had to make a pickup at Central Swank Felder to pick up some items that they had for our missionary outreach.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_05: Pastor David asked me to stop in and that they would have prayer for me.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_05: And when I went in, the meeting at Central was going on.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_05: I was in one part and they were in another.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_05: But anyway, as they began to have prayer for me, that's when I really broke down.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_05: It all really came down on for me.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_05: And so I'm saying that to say what I remember about it is not the time, but what was actually going on with me.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_05: As I saw George Floyd and I heard about George Floyd, it was immediately bigger than him.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_05: And I began to see a sense of the hurt and agony.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_05: I could just feel it in my, you know, within myself of years of oppression and this and that and so forth.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_05: So on.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_05: I believe that there's something just inherent within most African-American men that what happens to one person can reconnect us to current events as well as to past events.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_05: And it just, it was just an enormous, you know, emotional burden that I experienced at that time.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, right from the beginning, you can tell this was more than just uh the killing of a man, but but something that was going to be gripping for a whole lot of people.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_05: Pastor Dave, you may have been the one who was praying for me during that prayer.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_05: I don't remember.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_05: I know you came wherever you were, you stopped where you were and you came to me.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_05: I remember that.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: That was a heavy time.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: My understanding is that George Floyd died on a Monday night, but the next day, and that was the Tuesday that Alfred's speaking of, yeah.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, a lot of us probably were out of the office on Monday because it was Memorial Day.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: I have to say that the George Floyd murder was one of several.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: And whether you talk about the young man down in Georgia or you talk about others in South Carolina, Brianna Taylor in Louisville, unfortunately, this kind of thing has happened.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_03: Things that sound like it have happened for a while.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: And it wasn't until I was on vacation, maybe a month or so after George Floyd passed away, that I went on the internet and I saw the film in its entirety, the the video in its entirety, and it literally made me sick to my stomach.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: And just to see him lying there and the officer pinning him down, not moving at all, and you saw a man that had life and was able to communicate, then he was unresponsive.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: And it was sickening.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: It was sickening.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's the only word that I can describe it.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it served as an awakening for me.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_03: It just was was awful.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I was uh home kind of relaxing.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, it was my day off.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_04: It was Memorial Day.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_04: I guess when I first heard about it, I thought about how it was an abomination to the Lord.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_04: It was utterly repulsive.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_04: And uh for me as an African-American man, it was traumatic because George Floyd could have been me, could have been my brother, could have been my son.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_04: It showed me that nothing or very little has changed when it comes to how I'm perceived or we are perceived in America.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_04: Again, I was traumatized by just seeing it over and over again on the television and the effects that it would have on all those uh that look like me.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh just for our listeners, and all of our interviewees today are experienced pastors and have been in a variety of different circumstances.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: And gentlemen, you have seen a lot of heart-wrenching things.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: What made this different in your mind?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_04: I think that it was a live and living color for the whole world to see.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_04: Technology has afforded us that opportunity.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_04: There weren't too many ways that we could look at that seeing it on the television screen.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and for me, it was the same thing again, actually seeing it take place.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_05: The video, the visual, the audio, it's a very, it's a very powerful tool.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_05: There's certain things that you just cannot see it and not be moved by it.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_05: There's something lost in actually hearing things only.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_05: And I could even relate this also to I think if even if we had actually seen the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, as strong as our reaction to it is, had we actually been eyewitnesses to it, I think we would have even stronger reactions to it.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_05: And especially when we relate to the fact that um what it was all about, even now I get stirred up.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think I will ever not be stirred up, revisualizing this in my in my mind what I'm talking about.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_05: As you said, we've seen a lot of things.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_05: I have to be honest, I've seen a lot of things in my life, but I have to be honest, but I had not actually witnessed something on the scale of that.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_05: It was just horrendous.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's like looking at the Passion of Christ, and I'll watch it.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_04: And they told me in this production that they had to tone it down.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_04: And if that was toning it down of what he looked like on the cross, I couldn't take that.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, with these reactions that you had, you then started speaking with those in your congregation.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: What were they feeling if as you can look back now on a about a year?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: How were they expressing this to you?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'd be interested in all three churches.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, outrage, anger, some of the same feelings that I expressed, a sense of no justice.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_04: People were really disgusted and hurt.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_04: It increased my counseling load to try to keep people focused on Christ and not be vengeful, but to maintain a crystal centric perspective on what's happening, knowing that our God is a God of justice.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_04: And that's who we need to trust.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_05: In my church, a number of reactions, again, divided reactions for for some reason.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_05: The first reaction, the prevailing reaction that I heard the most of was, and I wrote it down, if there was no video, the truth would have been perverted and covered up almost universally.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_05: And so we had a few members of this who could not express it very eloquently, but they were actually believing that what we were seeing in terms of having a video was a move of God and an answer to prayer.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_05: Very much so.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_05: Another thing that people began to say is they were saying now, well, now we have proof of what many people have been saying, and those who have been saying these type of things have been labeled as anti-police because sometimes when you speak truth to power, you're saying what you are saying, if you don't have proof or evidence of what you're saying, it's easy to label you as being against this or that and so forth and so on.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_05: So we got that.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_05: The other thing that people, a few people began to say, and it was very interesting for me within the church, there immediately, almost immediately, began to be comments about all lives matter, and they immediately begin to also be talking about black on black rhyme because we know that it was going to be an outcry against the police.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_05: Some people saying, you know, when you have this outcry against the police or whatever, though, that sometimes it seems like we are negating that because of what we do to one another.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_05: And if we continue to do the things that we are doing, it's going to diminish the argument and the stand that we want to take.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_05: And so we had both of these things going on.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_05: I found myself for a while, I'm not a big advocate, you know, of the Black Lives Matter movement.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not against it either.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_05: I'm saying I'm not a big, but I I begin to really find myself to advocate for and defend some things that I would not normally defend.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm saying, even regardless of what we are doing to ourselves, this issue still needs to be addressed.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_05: And we need to have dialogues among ourselves also.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_05: And it was there's a diversity of opinions in our church about all of these subject matters.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, we have one small segment that is extremely, extremely conservative and will take positions that most of the African-American community does not or has not been taken.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_05: And so those dialogues began almost immediately within the church.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: And Dr.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: McKinley, how about the central Schwankfelder?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: What type of conversations were you having with people after the passing of George Floyd?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think the people were, it was a somber mood.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: I think the church that I serve is over 90% Caucasian.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: And among those, for the most part, the conversations were of a somber mood, saddened, just additionally, that what's this world coming to type of frame of mind.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: But I was able to talk to an African-American gentleman in our church, and he was outraged.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: Another gentleman that runs a sports camp locally.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_03: He's an African-American gentleman, he rents out our gym.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_03: I had a texting conversation with him, he was beside himself.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that one of my brothers here commented on how it's felt very personally.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: I think it was you, Keith.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: I think that there is a difference with how white people and black people understand this.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: But I'd like to think that that gap is closing.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's heart-wrenching.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think, Drake, too, people misconstrued, especially when us of ebony hue as Christians talk about black lives matter.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_04: And how I uh explicated it and explained it is that the Bible says in Genesis chapter 1, 27-28, that we're all created in the image of God.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_04: We have the Imagio Deo in the Latin.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_04: We have his likeness stamped on us, and that all we are saying is that black people that are created in the image of God matter.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_04: That's all we say.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_04: And some of the other overtones of the movement that are against the word of God, of course, we don't support that.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_04: But it's just like if you ask me, do you love my wife?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_04: I said, I love all women.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_04: And you didn't ask me if I love all women.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_04: You asked me if I love my wife.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_04: And so some of my brethren of the lightest heel get offended when they hear, they immediately say, All lives matter.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_04: We're talking particularly in this situation.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_04: All we're seeing murdered is people that look like me.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_04: And the other thing is, people are talking about, well, black people kill black people.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_04: There's reasons why this thing is happening like that.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, lack of educational opportunities, economic opportunities in our communities, hopelessness.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_04: And to me, that's a cop out to say, well, more black people kill black people than to deal with the issue.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_04: And so I think that that's critical that we have that kind of understanding when it comes to justice and righteousness.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_04: Psalm 89, 14 talks about his throne is built on that.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_04: And the lack of historically among us of Ebony Hugh is uh George Floyd and David mentioned a whole lot of others.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_04: I'm in trouble standing while black, SWB, standing while black, sleeping while black, I'm in trouble, driving while black, DWB.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_04: And so this is real, and it's an opportunity for the body of Christ, and we'll get to that to do some things to really uh authenticate our ambassadorship for the Almighty.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Dr.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: McKinley, you talked about the gap narrowing in the last year.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm wondering if the three of you might comment on is it narrowing in society?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: Is it narrowing in the church?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: Have you seen progress over this last year in any ways?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe we're more, should we say, colorblind, more able to reach out and embrace each other as fellow men as well as fellow Christians?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_05: I think the gap is narrowing also.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_05: And again, by saying that, of course, there's a lot more work that needs to be done.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_05: My concern with this, even from the first broadcast that we had, I mean, we all agree that basically racism and it in these expressions are a sin issue.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_05: The nap can only truly or authentically narrow in God's sight in a way in which I think what people's hearts are, hearts are truly changed.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_05: Can I say that some hearts have been changed?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_05: You know what?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_05: I honestly think so.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_05: But again, I think that there's more work that needs to be done.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_05: There's a danger in being satisfied with too little and stopping short of the goal.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_05: I may be a premature in saying this.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_05: One of the ways in which we try to deal with situations, problems, thank you for the missionary church.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_05: Again, we find some biblical story that has principles in it and which we can use.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_05: When I mention the story, you say, Well, what does that have to do with the subject matter?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_05: But we derive principles from it.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_05: I will say this when God told Moses to go to Pharaoh and give the message about my people worshiping me, so forth and so on.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_05: We studied the story.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_05: Moses was presented with three propositions that were utterly ridiculous, all of them coming from Pharaoh.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_05: And he did not cave into any one of them.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_05: He stood on what God had said, needs to be done, and what the word was.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_05: And so the gap is narrowing, but when the gap narrows also to those, sometimes there are propositions that are made that again falls short of what the goal is.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_05: He's first, you know, Pharaoh was told, you know, well, you're in Egypt, don't go too far away.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_05: Well, you can go, but your children can't go.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_05: All right, but um you can go, but your cattle, but your cattle can't go.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_05: No, there are times when we need the whole, if I can use the language that my mother would um would use, we need the whole kitten caboodle sometime.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_05: We cannot compromise for that.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_05: And so while the gap is narrowing, you have not reached the goal until things are really what the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ says and ordains for all people, but I think for us particular, I believe that there's an ethic, there's a gospel that applies particularly to African Americans in this land and other places around the country, and we have to continue to move forward.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_05: And so I thank God for the progress that's being made, but there's no compromise about stopping short of short of the goal.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_05: That's that's where we are with it.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: Reverend Williams, what do you think?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: Are we narrowing the gap in society?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Are we narrowing it in the church?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_04: I think, like I said earlier, there's a little progress.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_04: I think this whole matter is laid right at the feet of those of us that name the name of Christ.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_04: If we go back historically, had the church stood up against slavery and racism and oppression.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_04: The only reason why we have a black church is because we weren't accepted in the white church from the AMEs, from uh Baptists, all of that.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that until we're more concerned about the lion or the lamb than the donkey and the elephant, there will be no change.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_04: I think God is calling the church to be an incarnational redemptive presence that models unconditional love, radical and instantaneous obedience to the claims of our Christ, which will precipitate inexplicable unity in the body that the world might see what an authentic ambassador the Almighty looks like in the pulpit, in the pew, and in the public square.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_04: You know, wherever we go, the Bible calls us Matthew 5.16 to be lights in the midst of darkness.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_04: And what's happening today is that even the heathen media is calling us out, and our hypocrisy is hindering the heathen from hearing when we all about the holy.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_04: They can't hear us.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_04: We got pedophilia in the pulpit, we got partisan politics that seemingly are determined by the duck, excuse my street vernacular.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_04: It's always been about color, not black or white, green.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_04: And when the dollar bill rules the pulpit, the devil rules the pews.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_04: And so I think what God is doing is he's purging his church, his body, and his pulpit.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_04: The scripture says in Matthew 24, 12, when iniquity shall abound, when sin runs rampant, the love of many shall wax cold.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_04: And I think God is tearing down all these denominations and he's raising up a true church.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_04: When he says the love of many, I'm glad he said many and not all.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_04: He's raising up a true church of authentic ambassadors, that we might be lights in the midst of so much darkness.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_04: I think he's used like he did Israel, he's using people that don't even know him to expose what's going on in the body of Christ.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_04: And it's laid right at our feet to rise to the occasion.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_04: I think we're listening more to each other, that you can hear our story.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_04: I think these kinds of conversations with brothers that I know your heart, uh Drake.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_04: I know your heart, David, I know your heart, Alfred.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_04: When you know a man's heart, you can trust what comes out of his mouth.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_04: And it's critical that whatever we do, we base it on the biblical blueprint drawn up by the divine architect that we might be about kingdom business because the Lord's coming back and he's coming back for a church.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_04: And so I think that we got a lot of work to do.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_04: We got people in our congregations that on the Congress.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_04: Do we challenge them to stand up against laws that are restricting people's basic right to vote?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_04: We got that going on in the country.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_04: We still got 70,000 people or 700,000 people that still think the election was rigged and pushing that, which is a threat to our democracy with the voting rights.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_04: So there are people that that say they know the Lord that are in positions of influence that won't say anything, and pastors that won't say anything to their people because they haven't settled the bread issue.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_04: They're afraid that if they speak too strong about what the scripture says about this, I know brothers that have been put out of their churches.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_04: But I figure if God can serve Elijah room service in the wilderness by a raven, a dirty bird, he can take care of you.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_04: That's kind of what's on my heart with this thing now.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_04: He's raising up believers, black, white, red, green, that are authentic ambassadors that represent the king.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: Keith, one thing that you said is that you sense people are listening better within the church as a result of this last year.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious, uh, David or Alfred, do you feel that people are listening better?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: Is that a gain?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: Have we really gained there?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_05: I think people are listening better.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_05: I also wrote that for us in our church, that there's less of reliance.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_05: To go along just to get along.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_05: But I attribute that to one thing, not only people listening better, but in a very small way, again, I don't know what's my fold of missionary churches here, with some other churches are headed.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_05: I think people are listening better also.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_05: But I attribute a part of it also to within some churches, you're seeing a changing makeup of the church.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_05: Different type of membership, different mentality.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_05: Some older people developing new mentalities, some younger people looking at things in a different way.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_05: But the church always views things also too based upon who is within or within that church.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_05: I think within the church, we're seeing things that are moral and upstanding that we need to stand for.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_05: And so within Swan for the missionary church, very small.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_05: We're the smallest congregation in there.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_05: But there's becoming a change in the makeup of the membership.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_05: When you have a different mentality within the church, there's still that mentality within the confines of righteousness and justice and so forth and so on.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_05: Sure, you want to see the church advocating for things.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_05: We are advocates for how we feel, what we feel Christ would really have us to say and to do and to practice at this particular time.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_05: And that is to stand up for the rights.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_05: When you're standing up for our rights, we're standing up for the rights of all people, what all people want.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_05: And you have to go for it.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_05: Full steam.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: David, do you feel that people at Central Schwankfelder are listening more now as a result of the events of last year?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: And if so, how?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_03: Our church, we have a lot of intelligent people, a lot of people that are sensitive to the culture.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think that we're a pretty diverse church ideologically or politically, I would say.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so when you're in a room where you have people that are different than you are, that think differently than you are, you are forced to pay attention.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're part of the same church, you also have to get along.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: I think that people are listening more.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: I think when when things happen in our nation that serve as a wake-up call, I see that people are understanding that we've come a long way as a nation.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: I'll say this from my white perspective, it would seem that we've come a long way since the 1960s.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: We've had an African American president, somebody like Ben Carson, a surgeon, serving in a president's cabinet.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: But we still have a long ways to go because there are these places and subcultures and substrata that people are not treated equally.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: I really appreciate what Keith said during our first podcast.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: He drew that example of a school district in the city that didn't have enough funding to purchase books compared to a school district outside of the city that was one of several that were getting a turf football field.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: That ought to be an outrage when some schools can't afford books and other schools can afford a turf field.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: Nothing against turf fields, but everybody needs a book in their hands.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's one of the ways we can bridge the gap that we can come together.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um the scripture talks about Galatians 3.28, that we're all one in Christ.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_04: Sure.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_04: 1 Corinthians chapter 12, 1226 talks about as members of the same body.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_04: And and sharing resources, just hearing my brother's concern, can be a way that we can uh bless.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_04: I had a brother of the lightest hue call me out in the suburbs and say, Keith, what can I do to help during the pandemic?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_04: And I had a lot of people that lost their jobs, that needed resources, and they sent me a check for$3,000 to help to do that.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_04: Also, one of the things I thought about is not just swapping pulpits, but having shared ministry, you know, having a congregation that doesn't look like us come and worship with us on a Sunday morning and then have a fellowship dinner so that we can get to know each other and then to do social service ministries together, outdoor worship services with feeding and clothing and that kind of thing, because virtually we don't have any contact with each other.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_04: I think the reasons why I have good relationships with brothers that don't look like me is because we're intentional.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_04: We go to lunch and talk and have fellowship together and talk about ministry in our particular context because there's different needs and different cultural aspects of ministry that I think we can learn from one another.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_04: So I think that's some things that can help us come together to hear one another's stories and um see how we can help as kingdom citizens.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder if we can speak across black and white lines on the new federal holiday, Juneteenth.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: For some, this is very important.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: For others, either less important or not knowing anything about it.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder if Alfred or Keith, you could speak from the African-American perspective, and David, if you could speak from the white perspective, and perhaps we can try and build a little bit of unity through that discussion.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I I personally reflected on it, and historically it was I celebrated it and we celebrated at our church as a milestone and used it as an opportunity to educate because even people in our persuasion didn't know about it.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_04: So we did a program, it put it online, it's on our website to do those kinds of things.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it's a beginning in the backdrop of the multiplicity of issues that we have that are institutional and systemic when it comes to racism in our country.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_04: But we celebrate the acknowledgement of that event, that holiday, and making it known to all cultures what happened with Juneteenth.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_05: And for me, uh, do you feel that the Juneteenth holiday will help encouraging equality in society?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_05: Of course, I said yes.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_05: And for those reasons, I'll just add to it.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I think having this holiday for me, our church, we think that it shows progress and it does have in healing.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_05: You know, sometimes when you you're trying to move forward and make progress and do all these things, I think sometimes the healing element gets lost, you know, but people who have been hurt and bruised and anything that can help heal the mind, the psychology, the psych, and so forth, things like that.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's very helpful for all people.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_05: And also, I think it's helpful also too, because when you have people who genuinely do want to help and they're trying to do things, and they actually hear or they see that the way in which that they have reached out is actually doing some good.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_05: I think that helps further progress.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_05: Drake and Pastor, they see me much more than you do.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_05: If you talked to them today, they probably would tell me I probably maybe look a little different, sound a little better in some of the meetings and things that I've I've had.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_05: And that's because of things that have taken place, not just the Juneteenth holiday, but other things that have taken place also.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_05: But anything that you can do to acknowledge the truth, and you know, by means, by virtue of the actions that you put in, they want to celebrate the action you're doing it.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_05: The bottom line is if the truth of the matter is if we really want to be honest about it, African-American culture would ultimately have to say that we're not the ones that implemented, had the power to implement it.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_05: People of other persuasion, really, who just are really supportive of us, really went to work on bringing this to pass.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_05: And so it's a good thing.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: David, you have anything you want to add about the Juneteenth holiday, about reaching across to understand each other better?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I am ashamed to say that it wasn't until maybe a couple of years ago that I understood what Juneteenth meant.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think that it's been publicized near enough.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, being a student of history, you knew the slaves were emancipated, but to put a date on that, I think validates it even more.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry that it was just now made a federal holiday.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: Hopefully, now that it's going to be recognized yearly, there'll be more awareness and more appreciation.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: General, as we bring this podcast to conclusion, do you have any further suggestions on how the church can help build understanding and help us draw closer as brother to brother?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_04: I just think that as pastor, preacher, prophets, we can't be afraid to stand up for righteousness and holiness and justice.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_04: We have to lead the way.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_04: Our people will follow us if we take a stand and lead the way.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_04: But I think as brothers in Christ, that has to be our number one priority to operate as ordered by the divine orderer.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_04: I think that will bring authentic unity in the body of Christ, an example to a lost and dying world that's not getting any better.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_05: And for me, I think even in our worship and fellowship service, I think one thing that is going to be helpful as we do fellowship or whether we have meetings or whatever, though, and we speak authentically, that we remain sensitive to the fact that everyone still does not feel the same way.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_05: The Swank Folder statement on racism, it was very important to us.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_05: I think Swank Folder Missionary Church may be the only church that put it on their website.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_05: I don't have to go on it.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_05: But anyway, it's on there.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_05: In the midst of talking about this and advocating for certain things and want to have certain conversations, what we get on the other hand is somebody say, I don't want this.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_05: I don't need this.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not prejudiced.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_05: We're not prejudiced.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_05: What is this all about?
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_05: No interest in it.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_05: Close the book on it.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_05: Let's move on.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_05: I think we're going to do a lot better when we continue to acknowledge that some people genuinely feel that way, but they recognize our need for certain conversations, for certain things, certain changes to take place, are never an indictment saying that so and so is prejudice or racist.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_05: What we are saying is it's something that we need, regardless of whether you are prejudiced or racist or not.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_05: And until certain things can be said and until certain things can be done, we still experience the aftermath and the effect and the impact of things that were set in order a long time ago.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_05: For example, in among us, there's a real the question I asked before though, is there a way for African Americans to speak the truth about the history of America?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm saying it because we started having a conversation about the truth about America.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_05: People were telling, you know, talking about um the rights.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_05: We declare all men are created equal and we do all the for that.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_05: I'm saying that's fine, but the truth of the matter, history of the United States is that did not apply to us.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_05: So we still need to talk about that because we're still affected by that.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_05: We're not saying that you're racist.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_05: I'm saying we're still affected by that.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_05: That repression of that is still coming out in ways, and you criticize us for how it, if it comes out in negative ways or whatever, but it needs to come out.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_05: And it can come out through our worship service, our dialogues, or whatever though.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_05: But it cannot come out of every time we're trying to talk about and say or do something, you want to shift it and say, there's no need for that.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not racist, I'm not prejudiced.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_05: That's not what we're saying.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_05: It exists, but we're not pointing fingers or scoring at somebody.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_05: Matter of fact, I thank God for the people that I can talk to.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_05: And we're not going to move ahead.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_05: I do it in my church all the time.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_05: I hold up a picture at somebody, what you see, they tell me what they see.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_05: I turn it around.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_05: Well, you saw that because that's your viewpoint.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_05: But now we turn it around.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_05: This is another viewpoint, and this viewpoint is just as valid because from here, this is real.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_05: This is what we feel, this is what we need to deal with.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_05: And I can tell you better than you can tell me what's going on with me, how I am, how I've been.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_05: You can imagine, but you sometimes you just don't know what's going to help.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_05: And we need to be able to, we need to be able to say that.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna say that again.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_05: So people don't understand, they're gonna say, why is he harping on that?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_05: It's gonna help when somebody helps Wayne for a missionary church to get church.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_05: We're just telling y'all that.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you for the smile, but it's gonna help.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_05: It is really, it's really gonna help.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_05: And but I'm telling you, it's gonna help you in the end.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_05: Not just us, it's going to help you because you're gonna have an investment in this church in a way in which it has not uh been for a while, a deeper, agreed investment, especially upon racial lines, ministerial lines, so forth.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: David, I was just wondering if you could talk about the progress that's been made and ways that we might be able to continue to make some progress.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, there's been a little bit of talk about history.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: Might you have something to add to keep building understanding between African American and white church?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I think the church needs to become more racially diverse.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's central, as I mentioned earlier in this podcast, you know, we're 90% Caucasian.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_03: But thankfully, over the last few years, we have become more diverse.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: We have more Asian members, we have more black and African members, and that's good.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_03: There needs to be a lessening and a diminishing of fear, apprehension, or a differentness between all of us.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: So anything that we can do to remedy that, I think the church needs to make people feel welcome, regardless of their skin color or their socioeconomic background or where they live or what they do.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: We as a church need to be more welcoming along the lines of Genesis 1, 27 and 28, what Keith quoted earlier.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: So that's one thing.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_03: I think, you know, Central has always shared its pulpit with people of color, and I think that that needs to continue.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: I think that as more churches uh hear the word of God preached by people that are different than those who sit in the pew predominantly, I think that that's a good practice.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think doing shared ministry.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: We have a group at our church that does ministry with Alfred down in Germantown, and that's been incredibly healthy for us as a congregation.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I think more and more of those things.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_03: They need to be more common.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: Perhaps one of the things that we've done today, gentlemen, is just talk one with another about these subjects and to keep dialoguing with each other over uh issues of race in our country as well as in churches to help regain the good history that we have, as well as to challenge the things that were not so good from the past.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: And hopefully these things will bring unity as well.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thankful for your time that you've given today and certainly wish you God's blessing in the ministries that you're a part of.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so very much.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you for having us.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_05: God bless you all.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_05: Bless you, bless you.