Latest / DevQuestions with Tim Corey / 065 How Do I Assess My Market Value? What Should I Be Paid?

Transcript

065 How Do I Assess My Market Value? What Should I Be Paid? · DevQuestions with Tim Corey

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Dev Questions Podcast with Tim Corey.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Join us each episode as we tackle the questions you are asking about a career in software development, understanding the industry, and new technology.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: If you're just starting out or you want to grow stronger as a developer, this is the place to get your questions answered.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Now, here's your host, expert developer and online educator, Tim Corey.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: How do I assess my market value?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: What should I be paid?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: This is a question that Pyrocycle asked me recently, and I thought that'd be a great addition to the dev question series.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about how do you really figure out how much your salary should be, how much money you should make as a developer.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: And before we get into the specifics, let's talk about a couple of key points to understand.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: And point number one is that your market value does not equal your value.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is really important to understand.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: I am an employer.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: I employ at this point three employees.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: And each of those employees is more valuable than what I pay them.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I pay well for employer.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: I really try hard to be above the average in my pay.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I try to reward with bonuses and other things as I can.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: But even with all of that, it's still not what they're worth.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Those my employees are great employees and they're worth so much more.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: So just because I'm not paying them more does not mean I don't value them more, or their value is somehow tied to their paycheck.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's not, they're a person, not just a cog to be paid for.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: So your market value does not equal your value.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: And when you separate those two things out, it makes a lot of things a lot easier.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because when someone says to you, I can't pay you that, you're not gonna be hearing, hopefully, you're not gonna be hearing you're not that valuable.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's a difference, okay?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Now, number two is that the value you provide to an organization needs to be much greater than your cost.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what I mean by that.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: If you say, you know what, let's pick a number, I want to be paid$100,000 a year.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Are you gonna provide$200,000 worth of value to your employer every year?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning, is your employer going to be able to make that from your contribution?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Or is that somehow offering that amount of value to the organization?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: If it's not, then you're not worth that.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Again, your market value, not you as a person.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, you may say, well, I want this, but that doesn't mean that you should get it.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Just because you want to be paid$100,000 a year doesn't mean you should if you are making French fries at a local burger joint.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's not gonna provide that much value, probably.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: So there is an idea of evaluating what the position is, what you'll be doing, and then how much value that adds to the organization.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is the cost benefit I have to go through as an employer.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: I have to look at what am I going to pay this person and how much value will I get out of that person over the course of a year.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, that continues to go up.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if it does, I will continue to pay that employee more.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: But it always has to be less than the value they provide back to my company.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, I'll go broke and they won't have a job.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: So your value has to be more than your cost.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's why developer positions that are that are entry level, that are intern level, that are just basic level aren't gonna pay a ton.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: And your area, maybe you're not gonna get paid a lot, even being a senior developer.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: I was actually in an area like that once where I could get paid double or triple easily if I went out of a certain area, because that area I was in just didn't have a lot of money coming in.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, even though I was more valuable, my market value did not equal my value.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so the value I provided, even though I provided great value, they weren't making as much money off of that, which means that my cost had to be even less than the value I provided.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a little complicated.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk specifics.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, if you want to assess what you might get paid for a certain position, the first thing you need to do is talk to people, build relationships, uh, get to know other developers in your area.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: I know it can be difficult at times.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: I know it feels like it's a little intimidating to try and meet people like that, but it's important to build those relationships, not just find them on LinkedIn and say, hey, will you be my friend?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh or whatever that relationship thing is on LinkedIn.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's not that's not enough.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's not a relationship, that's just a really entry-level connection on a social media platform.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: And probably it's not your first step.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Your first step should be to actually physically meet these people and not just in order to get something out of them.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Genuinely go to meet them, to learn from them, to hear them, to provide value to them.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to these people.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: As you get to know the developers in your area, start to talk about your salary.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: That can be tricky depending on the culture, depending on uh whether or not that's um even permissible to talk about.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: In the US, it's totally permissible.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: You can definitely talk about it, but there's a culture of not wanting to.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a taboo subject.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: It shouldn't be.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: You should you should freely talk about how much you get paid, but it can be a little tricky.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe talk in generalities at first.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: And just say, hey, you know, I'm looking to become a you know, get hired as a mid-level developer.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think the pay range should be?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think I should be looking for from an employer?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and just kind of talk through some generalities, get a feel for what people are being paid and what I think is a reasonable pay rate for who you are as a developer, what you're looking to be as a developer.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now, number two, this isn't as good as number one.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, talk to people's probably your best bet.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: But number two, look at the job postings for your area.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Unless you're looking online to work remotely, you're gonna look in a specific area.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you're looking remotely online, well, then broaden your search to all online remote jobs.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: But look at the area you want to be applying in and see, hey, what are these job postings saying the salary ranges are?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And usually you'll see a salary range.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: I really prefer to share exactly what you're gonna make at a specific job.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, my last two job postings have had the actual dollar amount you will make on the job posting because I want you to know right up front, here's how much the position pays.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Not everyone does that.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Some people try to hide it until the end.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pretty bad practice to do that, um, but people do it.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so try and find the job postings that do list it, look at the salary ranges, look at what they're asking for, and let's compare that to what you're looking to be hired to do.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that's number two.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, talk to people, most important.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Number two, look at job postings for your specific area.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: And number three, and this may seem a little obvious or maybe not, but see what people offer you.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: So at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what people say, it doesn't matter what job postings say.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: What matters is who's gonna give you a job.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because maybe your area for your position, you should be paid$100,000 a year.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: If no one offers you more than$50, that's kind of your market value in that area.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it stinks, and maybe you want to wait until an employer opens up that's offering what you think is more reasonable, but maybe that's what you're gonna get paid if you stay in that area.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: That may mean you need to move, it may mean that you need to broaden the scope of where you're looking, it may mean you need to look at online, or maybe you need to work on improving your skills, whatever it may be.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, whatever you're being offered is what you're being offered.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, if your best offer is$50,000, then that's kind of your pay range.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: However, when you get offered a salary amount, don't just say, okay, negotiate a little bit.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Just see if it's any wiggle room.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: You'll probably get a little bit of pushback, and maybe there is no wiggle room.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I post my job posting, um, the last one, I posted the salary amount, and that was the amount.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: There wasn't really a negotiation room there.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: However, if the candidates had talked to me and said, Hey, what if I, you know, can you give me$5,000 more a year?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: It wouldn't offend me.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: I would say no, that's what the position pays, but I wouldn't be offended.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe some employers will be, but for the most part, they're going to probably say either no, which is fine.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can take it or leave it at that point, or they're gonna say, well, what we can do is, and then give you maybe a little bit more, maybe meet you in the middle, something like that.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: But always try and negotiate, try and get a little bit more than they're asking for.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if they say, you know what, that salary is locked in, well, then say, well, then can we add another week vacation?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Or can we and offer, you know, have a backup perk that you want, something that maybe isn't money, but really translates the money to you.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: If you ask for an additional week of vacation, an employer can look at that as free in some ways, but at the same time, you're getting paid for a full week of not working.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of a big bonus.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: So the idea that you kind of push back and negotiate a little bit should always be in every acceptance or negotiation process for accepting a position.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: But really, what it comes down to is when you are offered positions, see what you're being offered because that's kind of your market rate.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: If you can't get a job, it doesn't matter if you think you are this valuable.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: If you're not getting any offers, then the market in that area is saying we don't have any value attached to you.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Again, market value, not personal value.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: We don't value you yet.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: That may mean you need to work on showing off how valuable you are.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: I have a previous podcast episode that talks about that, but you you do have to figure out what you'll actually be paid, and that comes through offers.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: You can start rejecting them and say, you know what?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: I am looking at the general market value, and I see that the general market value is$100,000.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: You offer me$50,000, just doesn't seem to be in line with what the market value for this position is.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: And they may say, well, that's all they can offer, and you say, Well, have a nice day.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate the offer, but no.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Cool, go for it.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: But if you keep getting that offer, maybe that's all you can get.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you can't get a better offer, maybe you have to accept one of those positions if you really need that job.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Or again, you look elsewhere.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so market value is tricky, but it really comes down to what's the market gonna pay for.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: When I lived in an area that the market for senior developers only paid, like I said, a third of what a senior developer should be paid or was paid in other areas.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I had a choice: either live in the area I want to be in or work somewhere else, move somewhere else, or work online or remotely.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I chose remote because that was what worked best for me, and it gave me more of that market value that I thought I was due.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the answer to the question.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: It really depends on what what the market will pay, but definitely network, definitely do your homework, talk to people, build those relationships.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Not only those relationships help you in identifying your value, but they will also help you find jobs that might not be listed in the usual places.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that answers your question.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you uh found it valuable.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Dev Questions.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a question that has been nagging you about being a developer, check the archive to see if maybe that question's already been answered.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't find it in a previous episode of Dev Questions, leave a comment below the YouTube video if you're watching on YouTube.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you're listening to a podcast, then go to imtimcore.com and look for the podcast page.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's a button there to leave your suggestion for a future episode of Dev Questions.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: I love reading through these questions.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: I love answering and trying to shed some light on these various questions.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening and have a great day.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Dev Questions.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Tim is committed to making it easier for you to become a developer.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: If you would like to help make more content like this possible, please like, subscribe, rate, and share Dev Questions.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: You can also send your questions to questions at Iamtimcorey.com.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, remember, you are too smart and your time too valuable to waste it making all the mistakes Tim did.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: When you're ready to learn to think and code like a professional developer, head over to imtimcore.com and enroll in a course.