Latest / The Bold Lounge / Urvashi Bhatnagar: The Intersection of Innovation, Health & Sustainability

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Urvashi Bhatnagar: The Intersection of Innovation, Health & Sustainability · The Bold Lounge

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Lee Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in their life.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Every week will hear from someone who is definitely apart from an extraordinary.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: In addition to hearing their stories, they also learn about their bold world mindset that they did to make things happen.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Whether they faced challenges or outfit away, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: These impactful stories will leave you really motivated and inspired to pursue your own goal.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be created.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the bold lounge.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Today I am so excited to have Avarshi Botnagar with us today.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: She is the author of the Sustainability Scorecard.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love for you to just do a brief introduction for those that don't know you who are listening.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I'm the author of the Sustainability Scorecard, and I'm a healthcare executive, and I have experience working on the clinical side of things as a researcher, and then also in strategy consulting.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I often like to joke that I've done a little bit of everything in healthcare, but really it has gotten me to this point where it has helped inform the book and the material that I wrote about, which is really my hope for the future of healthcare, a broad view of population health, to say everything that we do by way of our economic activities all impact our personal health and wellness.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so, how can businesses work better for us and therefore we can support businesses better?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the connectedness of it all, right?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: We all know we're connected, we've heard it, but your book really amplifies that and puts it really right in our face in black and white of how those connections are in existence now, and then also how we can measure them.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm excited to talk about your book and the changes that it's creating, I think, already uh since it's been published, and just the conversations that are changing.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: So we always start off with this really good question, and and we've had some some conversations prior to now, but would love to hear what your definition of bold is in your life.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: When when you first asked me this, and also when I listened to your previous podcast, the first thing that came to my mind is if your dreams don't scare you, they're not big enough.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that to me is bold to just push yourself outside of your comfort zone and to challenge your current definition of success, whatever that might be, and to help others achieve their highest potential.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's awesome.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, from being able to see kind of that evolution in your life, is there a time you remember being bold or something that stands out from you where you know your goals kind of scared you?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: I I would say actually a pivotal point for me in my journey was actually during my MBA, and this was a little bit a while ago, but I was doing my MBA and I was in the healthcare track at Yale.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I knew what I wanted to affect.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I knew that conversations needed to change and the way we conduct healthcare practice today clinically needed to change, but I didn't have fully formed thoughts around how I could be a part of that change.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I went to a lecture by my co-author and thought, oh my gosh, I absolutely need to switch tracks into sustainability.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: There is not one healthcare person in there, and that's exactly how we're going to change the conversation and change the way we do things, is if we have, you know, learnings from other ideas and other industries and sectors and leaders that are affecting change in their sectors, and that those ideas need to pollinate over to healthcare.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: That was a big move considering, you know, I was pushing myself outside of my comfort zone.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's a two-year degree where you are immersed in content that is very much familiar to people in other, you know, experienced professionals in other industries that go on to do incredible things and you're sort of, you know, at the bottom of the lead pack and you're sort of learning from everybody around you.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: But it was just time very, very well invested.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it has definitely helped inform my perspective today.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: So when you made that bold move, and I would say it's definitely bold, a few things that popped in my mind is you're a bit entrepreneurial and you're certainly innovative because you're like, wow, I see a missing puzzle piece here.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: I see opportunity to actually move the needle faster if I'm involved, or healthcare is at the table for these conversations and being able to do some of the things that we need to do in sustainability.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: There has to be a connected bridge, and it had an impact on you, right?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: That things might take a little longer, I might have to work a little harder.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: But you're like, this is definitely aligned, right?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: It did you feel like there was a sense of like, oh my gosh, like here's my path, here's what I've been doing, here's what I really need to do, and I need to change lanes.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's almost uh it's a little bit less of changing lanes and more of creating gray borders.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and I come from healthcare, and so what happens in healthcare is that we tend to function in silos.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: The rest of the economy does whatever it wants and you know cross-pollinates ideas and we just keep doing the same thing.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: And in healthcare, we just incorporate very innovative ideas and ideas that have been de-risked because patients' lives are at stake.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very important that innovation occur, but it occurs in a very risk-managed environment.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: But that also that that constraint um and the view on risk, it creates a scenario wherein we tension function in silos, people are very, very specialized in their niches.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so it it was really important for me to zoom back almost a little bit and kind of look at it from a holistic perspective to see how I can help the interconnectedness and how can I be part of a movement where there is improved connectedness between these silos?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think is something that can be extrapolated to any industry that you've learned from writing this book in the sense of knowing how one thing really becomes a domino effect for another, and how there is no such thing as it what I do doesn't matter or won't impact anyone.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, there's just very few things that we do that are that way.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that you could extrapolate out as just like this is a true learning that you can use in any industry?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: One thing that I was really surprised by is that we we tend to not think about the chemical industry, but it affects everything, you know?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'll answer your question in a little bit of a more organizational leadership fashion.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: So in writing this book, I dived heavily into OCEM, and that's certainly not the meat and potatoes of the book.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very business book, but everything had to be fact-checked, everything had to be very, very well researched, and we almost had to think like investors when we were writing this material.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so in my research, I dove into the chemicals industry, and chemicals are in everything, everything you touch, feel, eat, they're everywhere.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it really helped me recognize the importance of supply chains and the and supply chain transparency.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's at the heart of, I mean, every couple of days we hear of a new supply chain shock or an issue.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: But when we look at the landscape today and you think about who is sourcing and what they're sourcing and the contracts that are being negotiated, it really does matter that your operations and your supply chain and your safer chemicals department all talk to each other, but they also talk to marketing.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: They also talk to so I think what has actually come out is creating that connection between the lowest level and the most detailed, which is your sourcing and procurement, and creating that connection to marketing.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that is essentially what we took, that is at the heart of circular economies and circular supply chains is creating a connection that goes throughout the system so that businesses are not siloed and you know, supply chain doesn't work separately on its own, and marketing doesn't work separately on its own.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would say that has been the biggest learning is actually diving into how to operationalize a circular economy.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're thinking about that and the connectedness and then being able to understand, you know, supply chain has gotten the most I've ever heard in my career, you know, props and importance over the, you know, since 2020, basically.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's before that, I was like, I know who the vice president of supply chain was, the directors, but I really didn't give it the props and the value and the honor that they deserve.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, a lot goes out to them if you're listening.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: So just probably not really valued like they should have been all along.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: But we have something happen, and obviously, I mean, and just tremendous things I saw in organizations I worked for and the organization I work with now, just the creativity and the innovation and thinking outside the box and figuring stuff out, and there's a lot of coordination with that.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like you underestimate potentially when things are working well.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like IT, right?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: You don't get your office call, thank you.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: My computer came on.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: You only call like when things are broken.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I bet supply chain might feel that way too.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think the connectedness piece, and that's really like when I think about your book and things you wrote about is like just understanding how our actions, what we do, what we're thinking about, what we buy, how we're how that connects back to something else, and everything's connected.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: But when you're thinking about measuring it, which is all kind of what leading up to kind of the title of the book, what are the best ways to create measures that truly matter in this particular?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like what goes into the equation or the ingredients of coming up with those those metrics?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, that's such a great question.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's that's the heart of our book is how to not get tied up in reductive metrics.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because at the end of the day, you know, we're surrounded by metrics.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: We we're every meeting we have, we discuss a metric or the other.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the day, very often I find myself thinking, well, you know, that was always some measure of number of widgets per hour, you know, uh, or or some measure of rate.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: It really wasn't forward-facing.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: It really wasn't directional, it wasn't, or it wasn't going to lead me to something prescriptive.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: And what we came up with through our research is to almost when you think about, and I'll elucidate it by way of an example.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: We wear makeup, many of us do.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: My son threw away my makeup, so I'm not wearing any today.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thankfully, we don't have a video on our own reason.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, when you go on evg.com and you type in what you've bought, the first thing you see is all of the risks and exposures by way of using that one lipstick or something like that.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Everything has a high level of reproductive toxicity or a moderate level of reproductive toxicity.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then you sit back and you think, well, it's 2022.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: So why am I passively accepting reproductive toxicity that will impact generations to come or all kinds of health effects, right?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think when it comes to developing metrics, we really need to become holistic.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's try, that's what we try to get at in the book.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: I really hope that someone comes up with a better, more informed scorecard than what we have right now with this book, because that's the point, progress.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we need.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: But essentially, what we focus on is saying, you know, we want chemicals, we want inputs rather, that degrade safely.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: We want renewable inputs to be used.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And we find ways, develop some metrics that, you know, help firms track bioavailability and biomagnification and things like that.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that, and we bubble it up such that it becomes a common language at a leadership level.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: These are metrics that we typically find in more granular analyst reports, but somewhere along the level of hierarchy, these get lost, and eventually you end up with a product that may have high levels of lead or high levels of something else because we just at some point don't have a way to measure, or we are not measuring at the highest level what we're putting out into the market.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so by way of this scorecard, we hope to have a scientifically informed scorecard at the highest level that does track from beginning of product creation and design to the very end of life.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that was the objective with the scorecard to come up with metrics that can be more forward-facing in that manner and be scientifically informed, but hopefully not be so granular that they get kind of lost in the details in the back of a report.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: When I've worked with organizations, I think one of the things that I encourage them to do is like we have the end goal.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great thing to measure.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: But what could we be measuring daily, monthly, weekly, whatever the right time frame is, to know that things aren't getting worse, but things are getting better, or we're on track, or we're staying, you know, with within the bounds of what we should be saying.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I'm always surprised at how people aren't measuring that way.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that takes years or months to find out when really you could be course correcting or making changes sooner than later.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I love the idea of directional and forward, informed by data, but not so overly complicated that we can't understand it or it takes more time to figure it out.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think holistically looking at something and measuring it.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: So those are, I think, things we could do in any industry and look at our measures directionally, make each other forward, they're informed by data, but not bogged down by it.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And there may be some new measures you might want to throw in there too that have never been done before, just for someone to say, yes, that's good, or no, it really did measure what we think.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: We think it should be this, right?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we're kind of throwing some out there that are challenging maybe the norms of what's been measured previously.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: And one thing that we talk about is also creating measures that really, really affect your design process.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, right in the beginning, I mean, we know that 70 to 80 percent of a budget is allocated in the design process.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's the time that we should actually be creating these measures and we should be focusing on things like waste prevention.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: So when you think about economy of waste or economy of space packaging, and what is the best way for me to package, not only with like my materials, but also how am I going to fit it in certain containers so that we're economizing space and those kinds of things.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: What we're saying is take all of your measures that affect all of your downstream processes and roll them up into some high-level metric now, so that we can we have a perspective on your life cycle, and therefore we can plan for it during the budget phase.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the other thing you put in there is really not accepting or tolerating things that we shouldn't want to admit or is we we shouldn't tolerate in general.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: I do think, in general, sometimes we don't even think, like you said, when you look up what's in the products we're using, it's frightening.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's really frightening.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: My daughter has a master's in public health, and the things that she would tell me, and she's in water and sustainability, so connected to that, I would be horrified by the things I was hearing and learning about.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's like we don't want to actually inform ourselves because then we might have to take action or change.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: So when we're we're when we're scared to change something around this very, very important topic, what are like some of the tiny steps from your book that you feel like we could just be more aware of or be more consistent about doing, or just maybe even advocating for?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: You just brought up such an important point, and it goes to the heart of one of the themes in our book, and it's it's actually a scorecard component, and we talk about maximizing efficiency and performance.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, what we say is when you go out into the market looking for a product, whatever it is that you're looking for, you should be looking for something that is going to do its job and be very high performing.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Whether you're looking for shampoo or a car, it should be the best in class for whatever your willingness to pay is.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're looking at best in class, then actually, if for example, if you're looking for um shampoo, just getting a shampoo that's going to de-frizz and clean your hair is actually quite easy.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's a gazillion products out there you should want for more.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how are you going to choose, after all, which shampoo you're going to buy?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's where I say expand your definition of performance.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: So expanding your definition of performance is absolutely doing the intended job and doing it efficiently, but also having no toxic effects to human beings, having no toxic effects to the environment or being benign by design.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: So if something is going to cause me cancer on everyday use or expose me to the risk of cancer on everyday use, but it's going to wash my hair, I no longer consider it high performing because maybe there's another product out there that does the same thing, but it's it doesn't have the same risk and exposure effects.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I would say is that in everyday leadership, whether it is our role at our firms or whether it's our roles within our community, within your family, we can all make better informed choices when we expand our definition of performance.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because at the end of the day, we vote with our dollars.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would say that is probably uh one of the strongest steps that we can make as consumers.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, I love that.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: I love expand your definition of performance because one that can be extrapolated to so many different industries.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm even thinking about it myself and just some things like projects I'm working on that have right now nothing to do with sustainability, but it could be sustainability of innovation, sustainability of forward movement or advancement of an organization or a person, you know, like these can be used on different levels depending on that.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Your own definition of performance.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we tightly define what success looks like, and then we either give up or we get critical or we stop doing something because it didn't do what we wanted it to do in a short period of time, or we didn't see exactly what we wanted to see.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: But if it's having that long view of what performance looks like, right?
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: I wish on the shelves there was an indicator.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: I really wish there was something that showed me, okay, here you can pay 99 cents for your conditioner, or you can pay$3.99, and here's the difference, and here's the impact, and here's why you would want to pay a little bit more because it takes a little bit more to make this product, but in the end it's healthier for you or healthier for your kids or your family.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: But when you look on the back, if you just use your shampoo, like there's 7,000 ingredients on that thing, and I don't know why it needs to have that many.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's absolutely we should not have to get a PhD in chemistry in order to understand the good target, yes, of the model.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Of the products we buy, and and that's what happens is that whatever is proprietary is protected by IP, and that's not even listed.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: So then you don't know.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have a few things that are listed, but they all have such long names, and there's only 7,000 of them.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: So you really can't stand in the aisle and Google all of them at the same time.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: So to that end, there are certifications and organizations that provide seals of approval, if you will, to say, oh, this is you know Green Force certified or whatever.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think you need to come up with an app, right?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like I'm just thinking outside the box right now, like take your scorecard, create it so that we can scan the product in the store, and it like gives us a number one through ten.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: And ten is like it's highly sustainable, they do what they need to do with the packaging, it doesn't hurt the water systems when you wash your hair.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it, you know, like it would be really cool.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's out there.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, someone can inform you, but that would be super cool to be able to like very quickly make an informed decision.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, we speak with our wallet about what I want and what I will accept.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think the other thing that comes up is just everyone can.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Can't afford some of the things that are better for them.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: That to me is what probably takes me off the most because maybe even someone wants to make an informed decision, wants that better product that's you know, cleaning product, for example, that's causes less harm in their home with the VOCs and the things that come out of it and things that stick or stay in a home after you do cleaning, but they can't afford it.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: But they're gonna buy the cheaper one because that's what they can afford.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think there's also that piece that comes into it.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: We're getting into a pretty heavy conversation, but sustainability is a heavy conversation.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Would you agree that some of the things that, you know, just better ability to understand a product's performance and how it's measured, which is really what you're working for, and then being able to like fingertip that in some way, whether it's an app or some way to look it up on a you know, very quick basis.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like we're ever going to get that where we're gonna work towards we can actually measure a company by its sustainability factor?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a lot of work going on in the space.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: We often say, my co-author and I say, that the next wave of high net worth, ultra-high net worth individuals are going to be those people that either one, create products or processes that uh that mitigate the effects of climate change and create products that are better for human health and also the environment.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Or two, they're going to be the people that invest in them.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: But in the next 50 to 100 years, I think if we somehow had a time machine, we would see that the world looks very different a hundred years from now because we're designing it to be different.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: But that action needs to be taken today.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: And thankfully, there uh well, one is we've done things wrong for so long that there's nothing but opportunity.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a positive way to look at it.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna put that quote out there, you know, we've done something wrong for so long, there's nothing but opportunity.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: Love that.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think we had it as one of our chapter titles, which might have gotten changed.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's still in the book somewhere, but just not as a title.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, there's a lot of opportunity, and also there's so much work going on now, whether it's on the regulatory side with ESG auditing, where the largest firms in the world are going to be audited on ESG factors, and they're all rushing to be compliant and understand the disclosures that they're going to have to make.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is going to have a very real financial, material financial impact for firms in the future.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's one just from a compliance lens.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other is that consumers are actually speaking very loudly with their wallets now.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so a lie that we talk about in the book is that toxic chemicals, we assume that toxic chemicals have to be placed in our products because we assume that they are cheaper than everything else.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's quite simply not the case.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the fact that this is now an embedded process and an embedded capital.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's become an economic habit, right?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have these economic habits that people think or assume are very expensive to uproot.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: And they might be if you were trying to uproot them all at once, but with a phased approach and in a change management fashion, they actually can be revamped.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and yes, we don't have all the answers today.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's certainly knowledge gaps, there's certainly things we need to understand better and develop solutions for.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I believe we can get quite far down the road with the solutions that we have existing with leaders who believe that they are designing for tomorrow, and therefore they take the responsibility to address the negative externalities of their products and processes.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I believe this work is going on.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And there are firms that are doing fantastic work that many individuals can afford.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: But then the thing is, and we've highlighted many of them in the book, but there's thousands and thousands of others that, like you mentioned, and I hope someone who's listening to this podcast does it, actually creates the app.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe we know.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, that's yeah.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: I really think that would be cool.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think just being more informed and not assuming, because I mean we get so busy, we get we have a lot going on, and I think sometimes we're tolerating it.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just so excited by just some of the things that you're doing and the things that you're talking about because I do think there's tremendous opportunities for us to be more informed.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think everyone should read your book because I think there's ways to extrapolate it into any industry you're working in, and then to also be more informed about how we're all connected and that our actions are connected to our future.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I just love the big picture and the things that you can actually take out and apply in in many directions from the book.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the day, it's all about health care.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And we all care about our personal health and wellness, about our family and friends' personal health and wellness.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so at the end of the day, it just goes back to that about and about maximizing efficiency and performance.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think someone asked me once, at its heart, what is this book about to you?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's actually not about sustainability.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: It does go back to personal health and wellness, but I would say it's at its heart, it's an innovation and operations book.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: How to innovate and how to create operations that will support a future economy that doesn't necessitate that we all live with the negative externalities of our everyday actions.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, absolutely.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if you're listening, I think if you go to the book and kind of take that and can, you know, like think about the things that we talked about today, when you think about, you know, defining and expanding your definition of performance.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: When you make changes in your organization, making sure there's no toxic effects on your employees, on your staff, on your product, you know, thinking about things in that way.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Again, at the heart of what you're talking about is an innovation model and an evolution model of a product or service that understands how one the right hand affects the left hand, and vice versa.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Healthcare is just predominantly siloed, and it's been able to be successful in air quotes for a very long time doing that.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that time is coming to an end very, very, very quickly.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the sooner that I think we can understand that about ourselves and our tolerations and understanding what we need to do differently, I think the better.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just so appreciative of you, the book, and being able to learn from you and your co-author.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you very much.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Through the continuum of bold stories, vulnerability to taking the leap, you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important stories.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey with those with the bold respect.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.