Latest / UNMASKED with Wesley Farnsworth / EP 46 -When Faith Looks Strong but Your Soul Is Empty

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EP 46 -When Faith Looks Strong but Your Soul Is Empty · UNMASKED with Wesley Farnsworth

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What happens when your public faith looks strong, but your
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inner life is running on fumes? Today's conversation is an
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invitation to move beyond surface level spirituality and
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into a faith that actually heals, strengthens, and
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transforms from the inside out. Welcome to Unmask, where we take
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off the filters and get real about faith, failure, and
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finding freedom. I'm your host, Wesley
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Farnsworth, a dad, veteran, author, and a man who's learned
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that God does his best work in the middle of our mess.
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Each episode will have conversations with people who
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have walked through addiction, pain, or doubt, and with
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leaders, pastors, and everyday believers who are learning to
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live and lead authentically. So take a breath, pull up a
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chair, and let's get real. This is UNMASK.
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My guest today on Unmasked is Doctor Rosemarie Downer,
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teacher, preacher, author, and lifelong servant of Christ,
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whose ministry has been shaped by decades of leadership,
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research, and deep devotion to God.
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From youth ministry to women's discipleship, from academic
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calls to pulpits around the world, Dr. Downer has spent her
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life helping people grow not just in knowledge or leadership
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skills, but in emotional wholeness and spiritual
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maturity. Her work consistently point back
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to 1. Central truth.
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Real prosperity begins in the soul.
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In this conversation, we explore what it means to live
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authentically before God, to lead from a place of emotional
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and spiritual health, and to pursue the kind of intimacy with
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Him that sustains us for the long haul.
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Doctor Downer, thank you so much for joining us today on
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Unmasked. And actually, thank you for
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having me. Thank you for having me.
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I love the focus of the show. The pleasure is all mine.
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It's so it's I've been able to be on your show, so it's good to
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return the favor and have you on mine.
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Yes, yes, yes. So let's just jump right into it
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if you're ready. Absolutely.
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You've spent decades in ministry and leadership and research.
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When you look at the church today, where do you see people
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most often settling for surface faith instead of deep intimacy
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with God? You really jumped right into it,
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didn't you? Oh my gosh.
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We we don't hold back here on Unmasked.
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Honestly, and when we say the church, I want to be clear that
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is it's very general, it's very global.
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It's not any specific denomination or any specific
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congregation that that's need to preface my statement with that.
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When I look at the church today, and I was even just telling my
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friend that just a few days ago, the church is in trouble.
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That's to sum it all up, I would say the church is in trouble
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surface faith. So we have become a church that
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is nice less word based, less prayer based and more music
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based, more entertainment based. That's that's an immediate take
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I have again on the church in general, because there are
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places where the power of God is raw.
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There are places where there are still miracles, signs and
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wonders. There are places where people
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are still hungry for God. So this is not saying that the
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church is dying by any means, shape or form because the church
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cannot die. That's the bride of Christ.
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It is not dying. It's not going to die.
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The general view of the church, the question then, OK, a person
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who is unsaved, that's not churched, never been in church,
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when they see the church today, from what they see, doesn't
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attract them to leave where they are to come into the church.
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That's the end, the pivotal question.
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Yeah, I think that's that's well said.
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There's the church today has become a lot more about
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entertainment and a lot more about sticking to the schedule
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to flip to. I mean, I think about like a
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restaurant, you know, you sit down, you eat, you get out so
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the next person can come in and sit down.
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And the church has become AI think in a lot of ways the same
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way because they're so OK. We have to get done in this, our
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time slot so that we can get everybody out to let the next
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service come in. And there's a lot of churches
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that are losing the ability, I think, to let the Spirit of God
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move and lead. And many congregations are
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losing their authenticity in worship because they know
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they're live streamed, so they do things differently because
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they they want to make it palatable for the public view,
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if that makes sense. I hadn't thought about it that
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way. Yeah, many congregations shape
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how they it, it impacts how they do church, how they express
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themselves, how they, because they knew that they know they're
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big, they're on YouTube, they're on Facebook, they're wherever
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they are and who's watching them.
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Yeah. Interesting.
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It's like you're fixing up your house because you know guests
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are coming. OK, but you've shared that Moses
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is one of your favorite biblical figures.
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Yes, because of his face to face relationship with.
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God, yes. So when you with that in mind,
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what does intimacy with God actually look like in everyday
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life? Not in theory, but in practice.
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Intimacy with God to me in everyday life is he is involved.
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He is intricately involved in every area and aspects of our
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lives, of my life. That's what it it looks to me
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like where I'm not doing things on my own.
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I'm not going ahead of him. But he is elementary to
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everything and, and I know his voice and I know his direction.
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Have I maximized this? Absolutely not.
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I'm growing and knowing the Lord.
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It's a path that I'm on. I know his voice.
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I know not just his works, but I know his ways.
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He I know he's powerful, I know he can heal, I know he can
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deliver, I know he can do XYZ. But I still need to know his
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ways. His his His habits, his
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character, his nature, his tendencies.
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That's intimacy. And first of all, and more so,
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knowing his voice. So when he speaks, I know who is
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speaking to me. And he doesn't have to yell, he
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doesn't have to scream. I can recognize his whispers.
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That's intimacy. Intimacy is knowing a person
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what they want, even what they're thinking, without them
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even saying anything. So even when he's silent, I know
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he's there and I know what he's saying.
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That's my aim. I want to be able to talk to him
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like I talked to my friend. I want to be able to share from
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my heart and hear him dialogue back with me.
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Moses talked with God as man and man talk.
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I want to get there. I want to get there where I talk
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to him like I'm talking to a person face to face and he
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responds to me, yes. That's my longing and I want to
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see His glory. Yes.
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Amen, man, I'm, I'm the same way.
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I had somebody tell me once, well, you know, prayers only for
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for meals and bedtime and for the sick.
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I'm like, no, no, no, no. Prayer is a day-to-day, every
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moment to moment conversation. God wants you to talk to him
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every day, just like you talk to your friend next to you, you
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know, and, and like, well, I can't tell him that I'm like
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can't tell him. He already knows everything that
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you would tell him. He just wants you to say it.
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So I love that, I love that. And that's my.
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Yeah, let me also add that when I say I want to talk to him like
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I talk to my friend, I'm I'm not talking about it doesn't have to
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be O Holy Father, thou art high and lifted up.
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It doesn't have to be that, but it's not going to be Yo God,
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I'm, I'm here. I want to talk to you.
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No, because he's still God. We still need to Revere him
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hollowed be thy name. We still need to acknowledge his
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name in whatever verbiage we use.
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But it's not yo God. It's not Hey, God, I'm here.
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It's I'm old school. I'm, I'm not doing that.
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I'm because I never stopped, talked to my father.
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Hey, man. And I never addressed my father
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that way. I would get a slap.
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I couldn't address my mom like, you know, so why would I address
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God in that disrespectful manner?
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So even though I want to talk to him like man to man talk, I'm
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still going to Revere him. I'm still going to honor him,
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still going to lift him up. Yeah.
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Yeah, yeah, But you know, and, and as people are going through
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things, especially, you know, this show is all about being
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unmasked and, and dealing with people listen to this have dealt
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with all kinds of things from addictions to, to life hurts and
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have, you know, to struggles and, and just everything.
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And they're they're, they're coming to terms with, you know
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what, it's OK to not be OK, you know, and to it's OK to become
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unmasked and to talk about these things.
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But when you are masked, that can lead to some shallow
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spirituality because you're still really struggling with
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things internally. And So what are some dangers,
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especially for leaders of neglecting emotional health?
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Well, continuing to function spirituality so spiritually,
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Excuse me. Leaders are in place to shape
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others, to take people from one level to a next to another.
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That's why lead you're in front, you're you're transitioning,
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you're moving from one momentum to another, one level to
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another, one place to another. Emotional health replenishes the
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person. Emotional health makes a person
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stable, resilient, sound minded as as Second Timothy 17 talks
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about being, being of a sound mind.
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Emotional health helps us to be there.
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So if as a leader, that person is emotionally frail,
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emotionally broken, they don't have what they need to have to
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pour into someone else. And an empty glass can't pour
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into an empty glass. A broken container can't hold
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what they need to hold in order to pour into something else.
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So it's that emotional health is key because with, with good
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emotional health, again, we're resilient.
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We are, we can bounce back. Leadership in and of itself is a
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challenge. It's a whole beast to itself.
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And if you don't have that resilience, you're done.
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So you're you're setting yourself up without emotional
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health for failure. The criticism, the push backs,
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the uncooperative, the people who are not cooperative, hard to
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get by in being focused on the vision.
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You need to be emotionally sound to do that as a leader.
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And that's just one of the costs that poor emotional health will
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will cost a leader. If you're not emotionally sound,
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you're going to be overly sensitive.
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Every leader is criticized. Every Once you step into that
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box, you're prone to being criticized.
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You won't please everyone if you're not emotionally sound,
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Those criticisms will cut you down and impact your capacity.
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Yeah. Yeah, it's 100% true.
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And I think especially as a leader, you have to be willing
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to be vulnerable. And because if you're vulnerable
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and you're showing, you know, growth and, and things like
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that, then you're setting up those that follow you to be able
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to do the same. And it's really hard to be
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vulnerable if you're not emotionally healthy at the same
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time. So I love that.
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Well, you often emphasize emotional wholeness as, as a
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topic that you talked about. And how do unresolved wounds,
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discouragement or fear quietly sabotage our spiritual health
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and leadership effectiveness? So all of those are very
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detrimental to 1's emotional and even spiritual well-being or
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health. So they can definitely sabotage
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leadership. They can definitely sabotage or
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relationship with others. Let's talk about fear.
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Let's talk about, I think you said discouragement.
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So you tried something there. There's a let me back up a
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little bit. I, I usually draw a distinction
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because one of my books is it's actually DS and FS.
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I talk about distraction, doubt, discouragement, depression,
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fear, failure, and frustration. I draw a distinction between
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disappointment and discouragement.
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So I tried out something and I didn't succeed.
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I can be disappointed or I can be discouraged.
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Failure. Disappointment sits between
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failure and discouragement. Disappointment means I didn't
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make it. I didn't get the grade I wanted.
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But you know what? I'm going to try harder.
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And next time I'm going to, I'm going to beat this thing.
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I'm disappointed. I'm sad that I didn't make it,
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but I'm going to try harder. I'm going to, I'm going to watch
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me. I'm going to do it.
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That's disappointment. Discouragement is I failed.
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I might as well walk away. I might as well give up.
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I didn't think I could do it anyway.
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You know, somebody warned me and told me not to try.
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And it's just negative narrative we're telling ourselves.
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Discouragement packs it in. Give it up.
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This disappointment is I realized that I didn't make it,
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but I'm coming back. I'm coming back for you.
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So how does that sabotage leadership?
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You have a aim. You have a goal, a 2026 aim or a
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2025 goal for your organization, your church, your ministry,
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whatever it is, and you fell short of it.
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Are you disappointed or are you discouraged?
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And if you are discouraged as the leader, how much leadership
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can you do? How effective is your
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leadership? Because again, leader, leading
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is a verb. It's not a title, it's a verb.
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Leadership is always in motion, always moving, even if it's very
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slow, very incremental, it's never.
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It's not supposed to be stagnant, But if you're
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discouraged, if you're stagnant, and if you're stagnant, those
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you, your constituents are also stagnant.
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It's a huge risk to the quality of 1's leadership.
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Yeah, and I love, I want to point out here, I can hear some
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listeners in just I can hear them in my head right now
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talking and saying, what does this have to do with your show?
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Like how do, what does leadership have to do with
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recovery or, or or living on masked?
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And I just want to address this real fast because when you're
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going through something in your life, you have to have
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leadership skills to get to the other side of it.
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And that means being able to implement some of the things
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that we're talking about today. If you're, if you're, let's just
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use addiction real fast as a, as a topic, you know, if you're
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going through something and you're on your journey to
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recovery, then good for you first and foremost.
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But if you relapse, then you're going to have that
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discouragement, You're going to have that disappointment that
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Doctor Donner was just talking about.
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But it's what you do with those things that is going to
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determine your success moving forward.
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You can be discouraged and you can be down that you had a
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moment of weakness and you relapse.
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But that doesn't have to define what it looks like for you
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moving forward. The important thing is you learn
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from those things and you apply the lessons that you learn from
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it to your life. And so now you have things to
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look for in the future as you continue to move forward.
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Just like a leader would say, OK, you know what?
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This didn't work and this is not the desired outcome that we
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wanted. How can we do a different next
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time to get a better result? And so it's all about being
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willing to be stable for being willing to learn to be able to
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move forward. Crap.
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Many believers wrestle with things like depression and with
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doubt, and they feel ashamed to be to admit it.
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You know, how could or how should Christians approach these
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struggles without minimizing them or spiritualizing them
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away? I think first of all, the
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environment needs to be welcoming and the churches need
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to talk. In fact, you know what?
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It's gotten significantly better, been around quite a
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while. It's it's gotten significantly
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better. Mental health is more recognized
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in the church now than ever before.
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So I don't think it's as big as an issue as it used to be, but
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it could be better, right? There needs to be balance.
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There needs to be balance in our walk with the Lord, we, we have
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5 domains. We have a social domain,
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emotional domain, cognitive or educational domain, physical
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domain and spiritual domain. And 1st John, John verse 2 says,
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I wish above all that you'd prosper and be prosper and be in
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health as your soul prosperous. So right there you have several
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domains mentioned to me. That verse is saying I want you
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to be holistically healthy, prosper, be it financially,
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socially, relationally and be in health physically as your soul
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prosper. So that's spiritual, right?
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So if we function on the premise of that verse, we will be
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balanced and will create ministries that are balanced,
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that addresses the five domains we provide.
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Physical feeding, we provide. And I'm not just talking about
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food, nutrition, exercise, the whole packet.
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So when churches realize that we're not just here to say pray,
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pray, read your Bible and sing some songs, that's just
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spiritual. It's in scripture that we should
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be well-rounded. So when we create that kind of
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environment, people realize that their emotional health matters
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and churches will be prepared to better address those things.
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Yeah, and I would agree, churches have come a long way in
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that. But there's as always, as with
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everything, there's still always room for improvement.
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Yes. So in your experience, you know,
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I'm, I'm curious about this topic because it's something
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that I think goes in hand and hand in hand with that too is
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when we have people that are struggling with things, it's
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really hard to be able to forgive them.
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And it's really hard. I'm sorry with anything, you
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know, especially if, if somebody has done something wrong to us
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or you know, or, or towards our church or whatever, we, it's
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hard for forgiveness to be able to be something that we would
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consider. So in your experience, why is
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forgiveness so central to emotional and spiritual healing?
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And what does true forgiveness look like when the pain is deep?
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Why is it so central to our spiritual health?
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Is the question. Yeah.
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Why is it? Why is it central to emotional
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and spiritual healing? And what does it look like when
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the pain is deep? So unforgiveness is the
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inability or the unwillingness, which is most of the times the
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person is unwilling to write off the debt to.
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Yeah, As if. Yeah, Forgiveness is you didn't
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do me anything. So unforgiveness is the desire
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for retribution, for payback. That's dangerous because a lot
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of times the opportunity for retribution is not there.
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It's toxic because we live our lives with the notion that that
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person owe me something, the person who hurt us owe me an
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apology, or owe me something. And it's a debt that is often
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not paid by the person. That's why we need to just
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forgive the debt because they're not going to pay us anyway.
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A lot of times where where you find unforgiveness, the
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perpetrator is not willing, is not willing to fix the issue.
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So now what we have done with unforgiveness in that situation
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is we have incarcerated ourselves.
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We have locked ourselves in a cage.
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We build it, we lock it, we have the key and we are behind bars.
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That's what unforgiveness does. It's toxic.
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It's poisonous. It builds walls, not bridges.
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It doesn't build gates, it builds walls.
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Gates are good. You can have a wall, but you
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need gates. Forgiveness.
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Unforgiveness doesn't do that. It shuts you off from God and
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from people who care about you. That's why it's very it's
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dangerous. I forgot what the next question
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was. I'm sorry.
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No, that's fine. I was just going to say it's
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it's one of those things that I often, and I say often, this is
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just even been reason for me is you know what, what good does
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holding on to a wrong do? You know?
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It's better to forgive and move on and and hopefully build a
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relationship that whatever it was to happen doesn't happen
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again in the future. But if it does, then you know,
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you just you might have a conversation, but then you just
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got to move on because holding or.
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Learn how to create or learn how to create healthy, healthy
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boundaries. Sometimes we don't know how to
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create healthy boundaries, so we keep putting ourselves in this
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situation to be offended over and over.
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There are some immediate consequences to unforgiveness.
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The scripture talks about it. One of them is if we don't
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forgive, we won't be forgiven. It's now, it's not later, it's a
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risk. I'm not willing to take another
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one. Psalm 66, verse 18.
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If iniquity abides in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.
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So I'm holding on to unforgiveness.
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I can't stand you because of what you did to me.
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Yet I'm praying pretty serious. Pretty serious.
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So what does true forgiveness look like when the pain is deep?
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How do you, I mean, in your eyes, what does that look like?
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So I I define and I talk about this in my book, The High Call
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of Forgiveness. I define forgiveness God's Way
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as a comprehensive packet. It's a gift.
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True forgiveness done God's way comes with healing.
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Most times when a person has truly forgiven the offense, they
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no longer cringe when they talk about it.
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They no longer hurt, they no longer if they cry, it's got a
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thank you for taking me through that.
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It's not because of what was done to the person.
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True forgiveness. And I don't need to say true
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forgiveness God's way, but forgiveness God's way.
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And I just make a distinction because we have defined
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forgiveness for ourselves where I'll forgive you, but you know,
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stay over there. I still don't want anything to
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do with you. When God Forgives us, he doesn't
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do that to us. And he said forgive as I have
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forgiven you. So forgiveness, God's way
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rebuilds trust. Most times there are situations
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and circumstances where we can't rebuild trust because you're
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still a rapist, you're still a child molester, you're still a
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kleptomania. So if you're still doing what
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you did to offend me, I can forgive you, but I can't trust
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you. You stole from me.
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I'm not going to let you back in my house because you're still
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stealing that. That's a different scenario.
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But if there's change of behavior and you know, there's
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change of behavior, but we shouldn't harden our heart and
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shut that person out. So true forgiveness or
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forgiveness, God's way is the willingness to put ourselves in
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the position all over again that offended us initially.
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And I'm not talking about the klepto.
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I'm not talking about the rapist.
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I'm not talking about the child, be the woman, be abuser.
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I'm talking about the person who has cleared the path and it's
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clear that they're in a different trajectory.
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That's the epitome of the God kind of forgiveness because, and
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I say this because there's no limit to God forgiving us.
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He stays in the relationship with us for us to disobey him
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over and over and over again over the same issue.
24:26
And this the demand in scripture or the demand is a strong word.
24:31
The the the Word of God says that we should forgive as He has
24:37
forgiven. US yeah, I mean he he gave us
24:41
free will for a reason and he knew that we were going to mess
24:44
up. But the wonderful thing is it
24:46
doesn't matter how many times you go back to him and say, God,
24:48
I messed up for please forgive me.
24:50
He takes that he takes that thing and he throws it out into
24:53
that pit out into that that lake of of forgiveness and so so far
24:58
away that he can't even see anymore.
24:59
He goes what you talk about you didn't do anything you know, and
25:02
you start press. And so if he can do that for us,
25:06
why can't we do that for somebody else?
25:08
I know it's easier said than done.
25:09
We're just two people talking and there's a lot.
25:11
This lip service is easy, but it's something that I do my best
25:15
to practice because that's what he does for me.
25:18
Here's what I tell people. Forgiveness is a mandate, right?
25:23
For believers. It's not optional and we serve a
25:29
just God. It's not unfair.
25:32
So He is not going to ask us to do something that He does not
25:36
give us the grace to do. The simple fact that He requires
25:44
us to forgive it means He is ready and available to help us
25:49
forgive no matter what the offense is.
25:52
Yeah. There's nothing too hard that's
25:56
done to us. I want to really emphasize that
25:59
because I know some people have been deeply hurt.
26:02
There's nothing too hard that's been done to us that he cannot
26:06
forgive, and there's nothing that could, could be possibly
26:10
done to us that is worse than what we have done to him.
26:14
Absolutely. And and and he say, he says, you
26:17
know, you're like, well, I've already forgiven him for that.
26:19
And they did it again, OK, Scripture says to forgive not
26:23
once, not twice, but 70 * 7, you know, keep turn the other cheek
26:28
and keep forgiving because that's what they need, you know.
26:31
And so let's let's turn back to leadership for a minute here.
26:35
You know, you've trained leaders across many different contexts.
26:40
What are the internal disciplines or self-awareness
26:43
practices that every Christian leader needs if they want to be
26:48
able to lead with integrity and longevity?
26:52
One of the main self-awareness practice that I would really
26:56
highlight is you don't have all the answers.
27:01
You don't have all the answers in the church arena.
27:04
Leaders sometimes are close to being dear, ties close to being
27:14
just so esteemed, so so the man of God is never wrong the.
27:18
Woman of a pedestal. Yes, yes, and sadly it has
27:24
caused, and for other reasons, many to believe that the answer
27:29
can only come from me. No, the other is a lifelong
27:35
learning, a leader who knows that I must continuously learn
27:42
and I must also be learning from a different place from where my
27:45
constituents are learning so that when I open my mouth, I
27:48
have fresh bread for them. That's going to be a powerful
27:52
leader. So those two things, I would
27:55
really, because you have pastors, you have leaders, not
27:59
just pastors, you have leaders who are so busy leading that
28:02
they never really stop to learn. You never really stop to get
28:05
training, Cutting edge training. Yeah.
28:08
And if you're leading me and you're rehashing the same thing
28:11
and you're saying the same thing, I'm saying we're going
28:14
around in a circle. Nobody's ahead of anybody, and I
28:16
should not be ahead of you. If you're leading me, you
28:18
should. Yeah, you should be.
28:20
Absolutely. Yeah, You know, let's let's
28:23
shift here for a quick second because I think what we, you
28:26
know, we're two were just talking about on how the church
28:29
puts those in leadership on pedestals, right.
28:32
They're they're, they're seen as I can't think of a better way to
28:39
say this. I'm going to say it this way.
28:41
They're almost seen as holier than thou.
28:43
You know, they're expected. If, if they do this wrong, then
28:46
they're like it's the worst thing in the world.
28:48
Like they're not treated as human right.
28:52
They're, they're almost, I hate to say it, but in some ways I
28:55
think many churches and or people in churches almost see
28:59
pastors as equal to or just a step down from God himself.
29:04
Like they're, they're just put in that kind of a pest pedestal.
29:08
So what is the danger in your eyes of a church that does that?
29:15
And what does that like? How does that impact them as a
29:18
church? That that's one of probably one
29:20
of the easiest questions you ask.
29:22
The armor flesh will fail you. Man is not perfect.
29:25
That kind of the real danger is they have taken their eyes off
29:29
of Jesus and putting on the man of God or the woman of God and
29:32
the in those settings. That's usually the terminology.
29:35
My man of God, my Bishop, my pastor.
29:38
Nothing is wrong with that. I have a pastor, I have a Bishop
29:40
myself, but he's not Jesus. And I will not take my eyes off
29:44
of Jesus and put it on him. Right.
29:47
That's the that's the day. And and that arm of flesh has
29:52
huge potential to fail you. Yeah.
29:55
Yeah, and that's why I, one of the things I love about my
29:58
pastor is he always encourages us.
30:00
He's like, I'm a human and I'm a man just like you are.
30:03
When you hear me say something, if you're not sure that it's
30:06
right, then I encourage you to go back and research and test
30:09
it. And even if you think it's
30:11
right, like go back and look it up yourself to make your own
30:14
opinions because I'm human, I can make mistakes.
30:17
I love it when my pastor gets real.
30:19
He gets real. You can.
30:20
I want. Pardon me?
30:22
You see the human side of him. I mean he's human, but you see
30:25
the down to earth side of him. Well, your ministry is anchored
30:33
in 3rd John 2, I think it is. How do you define soul
30:40
prosperity and how can someone tell whether their soul is truly
30:44
healthy or is just merely functioning?
30:48
Another word for soul prosperity are your soul being prosperous
30:52
is spiritual health. It's spiritual health.
30:55
And you know, some people would define spiritual health by if
31:01
you're a Pentecostal, how much you speak in tongues or how well
31:03
you can sing or how much you dance in church or how well you
31:07
preach, all of that. No, the health of believer is
31:15
measured by their fruit, not their works, their fruit.
31:20
So we go to Galatians 522 Lovejoy, peace, temperance,
31:26
faithfulness, all the all the fruits of the Spirit.
31:29
That's how you define spiritual prosperity.
31:33
It starts there because once you have the fruit of the Spirit,
31:37
they are bearing the fruit of the Spirit.
31:39
You can better carry the gifts of the Spirit.
31:43
You judge the health of a tree based on the fruitfulness of the
31:48
tree, not how long the tree has been standing there, not how big
31:52
the branches are. You could have them so huge
31:54
branches on a mango tree, but it's mango season and you go and
31:57
there's no mango. The tree is not healthy.
32:01
So it's not longevity, it's not visibility, it's fruitfulness.
32:06
How many people are eating from your tree?
32:09
How many people are able to be fed by the fruit of your life?
32:15
How many people are being impacted by the fruit of your
32:19
life? That's spiritual prosperity.
32:21
That spiritual being spiritually healthy, not barren when you
32:25
should be bearing fruit. That's that.
32:30
Yeah, when you're when you're spiritually healthy, you're able
32:33
to live authentically a lot easier to absolutely.
32:37
And so with that in mind, what does authentic life or excuse
32:42
me, what does authentic faith look like when things like fear
32:46
and failure and frustration or distraction are present, which
32:50
is in everyday life now? So what does the authentic faith
32:53
look like? And how do we stay honest with
32:56
God when we're in those seasons where those things are popping
32:58
up and they're prevalent? Authentic faith is.
33:02
I know it's there, I acknowledge that it's there.
33:05
I don't mask it up, don't make make up over it with.
33:08
I don't put a hat over it or a pretty dress over it.
33:12
I take it to the Lord in prayer and I'm raw about it.
33:17
I deal with it. That's authentic faith.
33:19
I deal with it. I don't come to church and oh,
33:22
I'm blessed and highly favored while I'm bleeding on the
33:24
inside. It gets even more authentic when
33:29
I can take it to another sister in the Lord, when I can confess
33:35
my faults to another sister so that I might be healed.
33:41
The scripture talks about that. That's authentic.
33:44
Authentic mean you're real. So in order to real, yes, we
33:49
will unmask when we're walking that authentic face.
33:52
Yeah. Yeah, I love that.
33:55
The church has gotten to the place where everybody's supposed
33:58
to be saying glory, Everybody's supposed to be saying
34:00
Hallelujah. But there's some, there's
34:02
sometimes where they need to just sit and weep because you're
34:06
in that season. And the space should be created
34:10
for folks to be able to do that and not be deemed unspiritual.
34:14
Yes. Yeah, and that's what I I love
34:16
the how you, how you put that you need to be able to take off
34:19
that mask and, and be real with God and be like, hey, you know
34:23
what? I'm, I'm struggling right now
34:25
with fear. I'm struggling right now with
34:27
failure, with frustration, with, with all these distractions in
34:30
life. And I need your help.
34:32
And then you need to. Be He already knows.
34:34
He just wants us to take it to Him in prayer.
34:37
He knows. And then, like you said, you
34:41
know, you need to be able to go to another brother or sister in
34:43
Christ. You know, guys, if you're a guy
34:45
listening, turn to another brother.
34:47
If you're a woman, turn to another sister.
34:49
And the Bible says to confess to another person the exact nature
34:53
of your wrongs. If you're struggling with
34:55
something, the easiest way to help that thing stop being as
34:59
big of a weight in your life is to talk about it and get it off
35:02
your chest. Because if you if you let it
35:05
stay bottled up and you're letting it sit in there and
35:08
you're letting it fester back there in the darkness, then it's
35:11
going to just get heavier and heavier and heavier.
35:14
Just start talking about it now and expose it to the light and
35:19
get it off of your chest. And as you do that, you're going
35:21
to find that it's going to start losing its power over you and
35:25
its weight, and you're going to start being a lot happier and
35:28
walking in a lot more freedom by doing so.
35:32
That's why community is so important.
35:35
Very much so. I harp on that all the time on
35:38
my podcast and when I'm a guest on other people's podcast,
35:42
because community is just so important to be living a healthy
35:45
lifestyle. You have to have people that you
35:47
can talk to and be real with and be honest with.
35:50
And you, that's exactly what the church should be.
35:53
If you're struggling with something, go to the church and
35:55
go up to your elders or your pastor or, or are those people
35:59
and be like, Hey, here's what I'm dealing with.
36:01
And if they're doing what they're supposed to do, they're
36:05
not going to look at you with judgment.
36:06
They're going to look at you with love and respect.
36:09
And they're going to be there and they're going to walk with
36:12
it, walk with you through it and love you and encourage you.
36:15
All right, got a little soapbox there for a moment.
36:21
All right, we all, we all have one or two.
36:25
So. So how do believers, especially
36:29
those that might be in ministry, separate their worth in Christ
36:33
from performance and productivity and people's
36:36
expectations? Separate their worth in Christ
36:40
from performance because I I don't I don't see how you
36:43
separate your worth in Christ from we shouldn't be performing,
36:47
reserving, not performing even when we're leading worshippers
36:50
serving. But I, I don't separate my
36:54
worth. My worth in Christ plays into
36:57
every role and everything I do I I don't see why one would
37:01
separate that out. But the second part of your
37:04
question is the issue might be the performance part, because
37:10
the church is not a theater. Ministry is not a theater.
37:13
We are there to serve, no matter what we're doing is service.
37:17
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think what I was getting at there is,
37:20
is more just your, the, the performance that you put on or
37:25
the productivity that you're doing, you know that you're, you
37:28
know, I had, I had meeting 15, I had 15 meetings this week, you
37:31
know, so I was really productive, you know, those
37:34
types of things. You're you're doing the
37:36
performance and the high productivity and stuff like that
37:39
for people's expectations. And it's not really doesn't have
37:44
anything to do with your faith or your ministry per SE, your
37:48
your relationship with God, right?
37:50
Those are just, those are worldly things, not necessarily
37:53
faith-based things. Does that make sense?
37:56
Yeah, that's something we need to lay aside though.
38:01
If, if, if a person's doing that, that's something we need
38:05
to lay aside. A couple of things in response
38:07
to that is we, we don't have a secular life and, and a
38:12
Christian life. We don't have a career and a
38:16
Christian ministry. We have everything we do is, is
38:20
we should see it through the lens of ministry.
38:23
And therefore everything we should we do, we should do as
38:26
unto the Lord and for the glory of the God of God.
38:29
And I'm not trying to sound spiritual.
38:31
I'm not sure I'm serious. The trash collector, the
38:34
mailman, when you do that, you are in ministry.
38:39
Everything we do, if we're, if we're treated right, if we have
38:42
the right lens, if we're sensitive enough, it can be
38:46
ministry. So and when we do ministry, we
38:50
must remember that we have an audience of how many 1 So that
38:55
then cancels out the interest or the tendency to perform.
39:01
We don't need to perform for him, right.
39:04
So I think the people who would be performing and then doing
39:08
something of this, they're they're creating compartments in
39:12
their lives. We are one entity created to
39:16
glorify God in all we do. And so that would remove that
39:21
tendency to perform, if that makes sense.
39:25
Yeah, absolutely it does. Well, Doctor Tanner, one of the
39:28
things that I love to do on this show is I love to lead people
39:34
or, or give people, excuse me, practical steps, things that
39:38
they can do to implement the things that they've heard on the
39:40
episode. And so I have two questions for
39:42
you to answer that will help do that.
39:45
So the first one for the pastor, the ministry leader, the servant
39:49
out there who is listening, but they're just really feeling
39:53
spiritually dry. They're still holding on to that
39:55
mask. And it keeps that.
39:57
Just it keeps showing up. Out of this entire episode
40:01
today, what is the one thing that you would want them to
40:04
hear? I want you to hear that the Lord
40:08
loves you. He sees you where you are.
40:11
You're not alone and He's waiting for you and you're not
40:15
alone because Holy Spirit is with you.
40:16
But there are other believers that can walk alongside with
40:20
you. So a lot of times when we get in
40:23
these places or in these spaces, we tend to pull away from
40:26
community, a faith community, find believers to connect with,
40:33
to mingle with, to associate life group, Bible study, church
40:37
community. So that iron can sharpen iron so
40:40
that you can be poured into. So you're not alone, but the
40:44
help is there. Don't isolate yourself because
40:48
the enemy seeks to get us by ourselves so that he can attack.
40:52
That's what he does so. My last question for you today
40:55
is, if somebody is listening, wants to deepen their
40:58
relationship with God starting this week, not someday, what is
41:02
1 intentional step that they could take to do that?
41:06
Set a time to meet with him. It's a relationship with him.
41:11
Not with church, not with others.
41:13
Set a time. If you have a boyfriend, a
41:16
girlfriend, somewhere you're courting your relationship with,
41:19
spending time with that person is what deepens your
41:22
relationship with him. Set a time to meet.
41:25
Start small. Set specific things that you're
41:28
going to do when you meet with him.
41:29
You're going to read, you're going to pray, you're going to
41:31
sing, you're going to do whatever, but set a time to meet
41:34
with him. Make it to guard it with
41:36
everything you have. It's your date with him.
41:39
And the more time you spend with him, the more you talk to him,
41:41
the more you'll get to know him. He already knows you, the deeper
41:45
your relationship will get. And then connect again with a
41:49
faith community that's that's pivotal.
41:52
We should always have. And it does have to be a church.
41:54
It could be a life group. It could be a small group.
41:56
It could be a book club, could be a prayer group.
41:58
But connect with other believers.
42:00
Yeah. Absolutely.
42:02
Well, Doctor Downer, thank you so much for being with us today
42:04
and unmasked. If those if there's somebody out
42:07
there and they want to connect with you, what is the best way
42:10
to find you? And I mentioned your podcast
42:12
earlier, So what is the name of your podcast for those that are
42:14
interested? Name of the podcast is All
42:16
Things Faith Walk. You can e-mail me through my
42:21
website, which is books by Rosemarie RIE, Books by
42:25
rosemary.com or e-mail me directly
42:28
info@booksbyrosemary.com. Perfect.
42:32
And I'll leave all those things down in the show notes for those
42:34
that are interested. Absolutely.
42:37
Thanks again for joining us today on Unmasked.
42:39
Thanks for having me. The Lord bless you and the
42:41
audience. Well, thanks for joining me
42:48
today on Unmasked and a huge thanks once again to Doctor
42:51
Downer for sharing so openly with us today.
42:54
If something on this episode spoke to you, don't let it stop
42:57
with you. Share it with another person
42:58
that God put on your heart while you were listening because you
43:00
never know whose breakthrough might start with just a simple
43:04
message from you. If you want more encouragement
43:06
or want to have speak to me one-on-one or your interest and
43:09
having me speak at your church or events, you can connect with
43:12
me and find everything about me on Wesley Farnsworth Duct.
43:16
And make sure you join the Unmasked community by connecting
43:18
with me on social media so we can walk through this journey
43:20
together. Until next time, remember that
43:23
grace is greater than your past and real freedom begins the
43:26
moment that you choose to live unmasked.
43:29
God bless you.