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Freedom, overpopulation, and perceptions | Jerm Warfare · UK Column Radio

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: M m.
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  Speaker 2: M m.
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: My name is Jim. This is Germ Warfare, the Battle
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: of Ideas. As you can see, I was in the
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: Kruger Park, guys, and I just want to make you
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: very jealous, Mike, and asked fo to you when I
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  Speaker 3: was there and we were chatting briefly about that video
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  Speaker 3: that I sent, and I happen to have it. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: I'm going to give it a go and see if
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: I can share the screen because it was just such
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: a cool moment with that with that line, let's let's
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: say it works. We wanted to share. Does look like
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: it's working. Okay, cool, Let's let's hit play. So I
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: don't know if you can hear me, but I can
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  Speaker 3: hear you. I had my window rolled down and I
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: had my phone as you can see there just outside
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: the window, and I was trying to see how long
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: I could last without rolling up that window. But my
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: my blood sugar levels were dropping at a rate. But
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: you cannot, you cannot believe how big those those animals are.
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  Speaker 3: Charles actually does know he was telling me earlier because
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  Speaker 3: of when you was in in Africa. But you cannot,
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  Speaker 3: you cannot. I cannot describe the feeling of the major.
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  Speaker 2: But it was was you know, as they're walking towards you, you
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  Speaker 2: don't get, you know, get a hint of the sheer part.
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  Speaker 2: But as he walked past you and you see those
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  Speaker 2: rebeling muscles, you appreciate it. Just just how powerful those
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  Speaker 2: animals are. Now, look at this one right next to
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  Speaker 2: the car there. That's when I roll up the window
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  Speaker 2: because I decide, no, no, because.
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  Speaker 1: As if I would have stopped it, no. I also look.
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  Speaker 4: She she's the mother. You can see that. She's the
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  Speaker 4: one with the milk. So if there was to be
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  Speaker 4: any drama, it would be her that would be likely
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  Speaker 4: to get cross.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. And what what made that even more daunting is
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  Speaker 3: the fact that there was a cub and you know,
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  Speaker 3: you don't really want to mess around with with the
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  Speaker 3: with the mother of all a lines with a cub.
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  Speaker 3: And as you saw when you walked past the car,
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  Speaker 3: her shoulders were above above my window level. I mean,
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  Speaker 3: that is huge. You can see that. That that's majesticness.
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  Speaker 3: Just by the way, for those watching or listening, I'm
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  Speaker 3: sitting in a coffee shop. You guys know, my fiber
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  Speaker 3: line was broken while we were away. Construction workers dug
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  Speaker 3: into the ground and they snapped a cable, so I
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  Speaker 3: have to use the Wi Fi at local coffee shop.
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  Speaker 3: But one of the things that I love about living
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  Speaker 3: in Africa is Charles, you've spent time in Africa, so
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  Speaker 3: I'm sure you'll you'll agree to some degree, but there
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  Speaker 3: is a sense of freedom in our broken infrastructure and
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  Speaker 3: I quite like that. Did you find the sense of
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  Speaker 3: freedom when you were in Kenya?
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  Speaker 4: Very much too, and in plenty of other places as well.
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  Speaker 4: I think it's very interesting, especially as a well. It
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  Speaker 4: depends whether you are a in any of these countries,
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  Speaker 4: I would saying the Sub Saharan countries, whether you're a citizen,
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  Speaker 4: whether you're a resident, or whether you're just a visitor.
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  Speaker 4: And I think that that does definitely make quite a
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  Speaker 4: considerable difference on your experience there and your perspective. And
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  Speaker 4: I've been lucky enough to travel in a lot of
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  Speaker 4: Sub Saharan Africa but also work there in different capacities
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  Speaker 4: as well, And yes, I mean I would absolutely agree,
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  Speaker 4: but to a point, and there are differences what I
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  Speaker 4: would say, and I'd be interested in your thoughts on
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  Speaker 4: this in South Africa, but certainly in East Africa. What
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  Speaker 4: I would say is that whilst there are great, big
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  Speaker 4: expanses of land and it's very easy to feel like
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  Speaker 4: you're off the beaten track, it is actually incredibly hard
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  Speaker 4: to find a place where after more than thirty minutes
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  Speaker 4: at least one child with a dog or a goat
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  Speaker 4: has not found you. And that I'm not suggesting that
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  Speaker 4: doesn't still give a sense of freedom, but it does
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  Speaker 4: mean that you're never quite in the middle of what
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  Speaker 4: you think is nowhere. And the reason I say this
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  Speaker 4: is because the spaces lots of Africa are regulated or controlled.
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  Speaker 5: You know, the Krueger.
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  Speaker 4: Obviously you have to either well presumably you actually even
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  Speaker 4: if you're citizen, you'll still have to pay to get in.
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  Speaker 4: You know, you have to be registered, you have to
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  Speaker 4: be booked in, and this, that and the other. Now,
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  Speaker 4: of course you've just showed us a video that demonstrates
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  Speaker 4: the sort of thing that you might see when you're
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  Speaker 4: in there. But what I would say about the United Kingdom,
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  Speaker 4: British Isles and a lot of Western Europe is that
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  Speaker 4: the critical difference is that whilst you might not be
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  Speaker 4: in a situation like that regard to wildlife, you don't
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  Speaker 4: have the same process by which you're you're sort of
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  Speaker 4: booking into here, and there's a there's a effectively an
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  Speaker 4: audit trail of where you are, what you're doing, and
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  Speaker 4: indeed that you have to pay for it. So the
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  Speaker 4: way that the park system, the wild spaces let's call them,
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  Speaker 4: in the United Kingdom work the British.
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  Speaker 5: Isles so far, it's.
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  Speaker 4: Completely unregulated, completely unmonitored, so you can travel exactly where
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  Speaker 4: you like, and in the places where there are sort
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  Speaker 4: of bothies or lodges or whatever, that's that's a matter
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  Speaker 4: between you and the person that owns it.
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  Speaker 5: There's no park authority.
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  Speaker 4: That you have to deal with, which is not say
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  Speaker 4: these authorities don't exist. They do, but they're there for
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  Speaker 4: effectively for the sort of land husbandry and that sort
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  Speaker 4: of thing, So there is there is a difference. And
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  Speaker 4: also it is absolutely possible to walk in particularly the
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  Speaker 4: North of England or Wales or Scotland, for very long
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  Speaker 4: periods of time without saying a single person. And oddly,
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  Speaker 4: and I always find this odd because Africa is so big,
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  Speaker 4: and the spaces in a lot of these countries that
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  Speaker 4: we refer to are so big, but it is bizarre
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  Speaker 4: to feel like you're on the edge of the earth
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  Speaker 4: and then suddenly, and I think you know what I'm
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  Speaker 4: talking about. Suddenly usually a little boy or a couple
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  Speaker 4: of little boys will just appear, and they won't appear.
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  Speaker 4: And again I'm not having a going because I totally
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  Speaker 4: understand the natural curiosity, but they won't appear and just
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  Speaker 4: carry on doing what they're doing. They will appear and
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  Speaker 4: come and talk to you, and they absolutely will not
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  Speaker 4: leave you alone. So it's a really interesting difference insofar
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  Speaker 4: as evaluating what exactly we mean by freedom. And I
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  Speaker 4: don't say that to so sort of do down the
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  Speaker 4: African freedom or the African experiences, but I do think
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  Speaker 4: for context, it is quite fascinating that at the moment,
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  Speaker 4: and the reason I say at the moment is because
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  Speaker 4: this this idea of natural capital and everything being turned
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  Speaker 4: into a commodity, means that the situation as it is
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  Speaker 4: is probably unlikely to continue forever and ever it looks
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  Speaker 4: set to change. But nonetheless it is quite a fascinating
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  Speaker 4: distinction whether if we did have the wildlife and there
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  Speaker 4: are There's a place up in the north of Scotland
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  Speaker 4: called Alladale which was a huge estate brought up by
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  Speaker 4: a chap who's was called Lister, Paul Lister, and his
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  Speaker 4: plan was to reintroduce a lot of the wildlife that
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  Speaker 4: these islands did contain, wolves, bears, links, that sort of thing.
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  Speaker 4: He's been very much frustrated by the authorities, as you'd imagine,
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  Speaker 4: and of course people say, oh, you know what about
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  Speaker 4: the sheep and this and the other. Now that's a
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  Speaker 4: private place, so therefore, yes, of course you do have
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  Speaker 4: to pay. So some of what I'm describing with regard
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  Speaker 4: to Africa is happening here, but not with regard to
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  Speaker 4: what we describe as national parks here. So yeah, it
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  Speaker 4: is a really interesting sort of contrast. I spase.
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  Speaker 3: I wasn't really referring to open space necessarily being equivalent
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  Speaker 3: to freedom, but I was supposed being more philosophical in
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  Speaker 3: the sense that the lack of top down infrastructure lends
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  Speaker 3: itself to a kind of freedom of the mind in
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  Speaker 3: a way. Let me give an example when I went
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  Speaker 3: to Europe. Now, you guys are you right there, So
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  Speaker 3: for you it's normal, But for me, the the amount
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  Speaker 3: of bureaucracy that was required to enter Europe was unbelievable.
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  Speaker 3: Someone said to me this morning that you know that
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  Speaker 3: in China, you have to you are compelled to obey.
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  Speaker 3: I was heavily compelled to obey when I was in Europe,
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  Speaker 3: and I don't have that sense where I am, which
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  Speaker 3: is one of the reasons why I do enjoy living
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  Speaker 3: where I live. But it comes out of costs, and
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  Speaker 3: it's that it's that cost benefit ratio that one has
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  Speaker 3: to balance. I was chanting to Vanessa when I was
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  Speaker 3: in Kruger, and she was saying, you know, she lives
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  Speaker 3: in one of the most ravage countries in the world,
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  Speaker 3: libing on and she says, yet she feels the safest
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  Speaker 3: and probably you know, the happiest that she could be
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  Speaker 3: of all places, which in a weird way underpins what
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  Speaker 3: I'm saying.
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  Speaker 2: It's interesting you say that about Europe. I mean, to
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  Speaker 2: a certain degree, that's that's true if you have to
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  Speaker 2: engage with population centers. But but if we look at France,
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  Speaker 2: for example, which has we've got to acknowledge, one of
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  Speaker 2: the worst bureaucracies on the planet. Its population is largely
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  Speaker 2: gathered into you know, four or five major cities whatever
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  Speaker 2: it is. I don't know how many major cities it is.
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  Speaker 2: But anyway, the point is in between it's you know,
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  Speaker 2: relative to to England, for example, the population density in
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  Speaker 2: the countryside areas is.
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  Speaker 3: Very very low.
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  Speaker 2: And so, you know, when we went to live there
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  Speaker 2: for a couple of years when my kids were very young,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: about what were the three four years old something around that,
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  Speaker 2: and we were there for two years and basically we
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: didn't have to deal with bureaucracy at all. We never
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  Speaker 2: saw the police, We never we just went and played
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: with the wild boar and the.
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  Speaker 1: Wolves sort of thing, you know what.
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  Speaker 2: I'm not being quite serious about that, but the point
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  Speaker 2: is we just walked in the mountains and saw nobody
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  Speaker 2: and it was absolutely fantastic. And yes, sometimes we ran
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: up against wild boar and but there was never any
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: concern about that. And the only time that we ever
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: had to worry about sort of personal safety was when
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  Speaker 2: the hunters were out once a year for a few weeks,
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  Speaker 2: and then you did have to be a little bit
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: careful because they you know, you just had to be
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: careful that you weren't going to get shot by accident.
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  Speaker 2: But aside from that, there was no engagement with with
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  Speaker 2: bureaucracy whatsoever, and it actually was extremely free. So you
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  Speaker 2: are absolutely able to if you organize things properly, get
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  Speaker 2: away from the bureaucra see that we fierce in Europe.
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: But that's actually a good point that you're making, because
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  Speaker 3: when I was engaging in the UK column forums, there
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  Speaker 3: was a brief discussion about overpopulation and one of the
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  Speaker 3: members was saying, yes, it's this perception that the world
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  Speaker 3: is overpopulated, and I don't see that at all based
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  Speaker 3: on what you're saying. For example, where you can go
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  Speaker 3: into the middle of a country and of very few people.
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  Speaker 3: If I travel between Cape Town and Jannersberg, it's a
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  Speaker 3: two hour flight, ninety five ninety eight percent of the
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  Speaker 3: land below me is empty, completely empty, and it's it's
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  Speaker 3: only it's only that concentration in sort of localized areas
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  Speaker 3: where you where you get the perception of of you know,
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  Speaker 3: overpopulation and of course perhaps then excessive bureaucracy.
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  Speaker 2: The key word there was perception and a lot of
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  Speaker 2: it has to do with the state of infrastructure and
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  Speaker 2: you know, at the end of the day, are we
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  Speaker 2: able to just live our lives and when society is
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  Speaker 2: feeling overpopulated because the roads are bugged up and you
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: can't get from A to B, or you can't get
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  Speaker 2: a seat on a train or whatever it happens to be.
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  Speaker 2: That that's when it starts to feel overpopulated.
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  Speaker 1: Go to China and see what population density is like.
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  Speaker 2: But the infrastructure works, so actually it doesn't feel you know,
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  Speaker 2: it clearly feels populated, and clearly you're in amongst you know,
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  Speaker 2: hundreds or thousands of people as you're walking through the
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  Speaker 2: streets of Beijing or whatever. But it's not it's not
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  Speaker 2: that same feeling of disruption, and and I just can't
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  Speaker 2: get on with with what it is. I want to
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: do so. But but you know, as you say in
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: the meantime, why we're all stuck in our cities. There
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: are ways to get away from that, and that's a
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: question of how we organize our lives.
• 12:47
  Speaker 5: Just just bureaucracy.
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  Speaker 4: I just think a couple of anecdotes that either support
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: your case or not. I think that I think the
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: particular African country does make a difference, and by two
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: contrasting examples, and not forgetting of course, given Africa's colonial history,
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: bureaucracy is a legacy. And what's been unfortunate about it
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: is that quite often the situation now will be in
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: effect a sort of an upgraded version of the colonial bureaucracy.
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: Because anyway, mine, I was reminded of crossing a very
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: very underutilized border post in between mozar Bink and Malawi
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: in a vehicle. And I turned up at the post.
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  Speaker 4: And for those who have not traveled in this part
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: of well, I mean we're talking. It's described as a
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: border post. Actually it is a mud hut with a stole,
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: a rickety table and a big, really dog eared book
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: and everything is just done by handwriting. So the idea
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: that you know, yeah, okay, I'm either entering or leaving
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: the country and anyone in Blantyre or anywhere else is
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: going to know about this for six months is a
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: joke that's not going to happ Anyway, I turned up
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: and there was no one there, at least no one
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: visible at the time. So I thought, okay, well this
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: needs to be done properly. So I just opened the book,
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: looked at all the various columns, and I just filled
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: it in all the filled everything in myself, you know,
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: passib all details, vehicle details, carnade of passage and all
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: that kind of thing. And then and then the guy
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: walked back in and saw me sitting in his desk,
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: so I, you know, immediately took the mickey out of
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: him for deserting his posts and said, you know, I'm here,
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: I am doing your doing your blinking job for you.
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: Come on, what's this country coming to? And you can
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: imagine how that would have gone down in the UK.
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: You know, if you'd sat behind some administrator his desk.
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: I mean, I would not be here having this conversation.
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: Now I'd been sent off the goolag. But anyway, this
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: chat broke into a broad grin and roared with laughter.
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: I mean, he thought it was absolutely priceless to see
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: this idiotic white man sitting in his chair trying to
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: trying to fumble around doing his job. So terrific, and
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: we did it, and that and that was that across
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: the border. Whereas I remember years ago in Ethiopia, I
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: was I had to organize a sort of training conference
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: in Addis and I don't know how it happened, but
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: two of the guys that I took with me from
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: the headquarters I was sorry when I was in the Army,
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: from the headquarters I was working in in Kenya turned
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: up without passports. But they so they were allowed to
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: fly out but when we got into the airport at Addis,
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: they they said, although you know, immigration people said well,
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: where's your passport?
• 15:23
  Speaker 5: I haven't got it. So they were trapped.
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: They couldn't they I couldn't get them on a flight back,
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: but nor were they allowed into the country anyway. The
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: reason for mentioning it is that it was like a
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: Monty Python sketch.
• 15:35
  Speaker 5: I went round every single.
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: Office of the whatever it was, the Ministry of Foreign
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: Affairs or the you know both actually because they had to.
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: And then and then the final the final bit was
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: that having been to about twelve different offices and then
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: constantly being told that now I need that in triplicate,
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: so it'd give you one piece of paper.
• 15:57
  Speaker 5: I need that.
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: I need two more copies of that. All right, okay,
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: well could could you just give me two more copies?
• 16:01
  Speaker 5: Or can no?
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: But there is a photocopy if you go out the
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: door here, you take a taxi, you go to you know.
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: So we had to do all this, got back, finished
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: all the things, and then and then learn behold the
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: last station that I went to to get the thing
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: signed off to say that yeah, they can come into
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: the country. Was the first bloke I had spoken to
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: so we could have so all of that, all of
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: that stuff which took me half a day to do,
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: could have been done in the course of fifteen minutes.
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: And indeed, if they'd ever bought a photocopy that the
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: public could use.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: So so, just think how many jobs are provided.
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: Oh crichi, yeah, and how many after dinner anecdotes for
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: those guys who were giving me the run around. But
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: even that, there was a sort of there was a
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: perverse pleasure to be taken in being messed around to
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: that degree. I mean I did find it absolutely hilarious,
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: rather tiring, and it worked, you know, we got them in.
• 16:56
  Speaker 5: Whereas if that had.
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: Again, going back to Western Europe, I mean, okay, let's say,
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: for the sake of argument, it were even possible. But
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: if two guys had arrived in this country without passports
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: and hang on, I might be going in a funny
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: direction here. But to try and to say, oh no,
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: don't worry, I'm running some training for them. It's fine,
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: let them in. And to think that that would happen,
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: obviously it's not credible.
• 17:23
  Speaker 5: So yes, I do absolutely agree with you.
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: There is even where there exists bureaucracy, there is almost
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: always a way to get around it. I'm not suggesting corruption,
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: but to just come to an arrangement that's reasonable, and
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: I think that is deeply refreshing, but chicky.
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: So this was when Cole and I were in China.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: I'm riding a bicycle there in the middle of Shanghai.
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: There a few people, they are this is a weekday.
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: If we're going to talk about overpopulation, I'd love to
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: know what it is that people mean when they speak
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: about overpopulation. And I think this is a tripe that
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: is constantly used to submit us into a sense of fear.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: No, no, it comes I think it comes back to
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: what I said earlier, and I completely get it. England
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: does feel overpopulated. England feels overpopulated because because of course
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: we're comparing what the situation today with what it was
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: twenty thirty forty years ago when you were able to
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: drive from one place to another without having to sit
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: in the traffic queue for four hours. And so you know,
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: my daughter went climbing in South Wales just a few
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: days ago and last weekend, and to get from Plymouth
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: to South Wales should be what three hours, It took
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: seven hours to get there. Because of you know, because
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: of the population on the on the motorways and so so.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: That that's that's when it starts to feel that way.
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: No, but hold on, Mike Call made an interesting point
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: when we were discussing exactly that in Shanghai. He said
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: that it's the management of the people that matters. In
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: other words, if it takes you that much longer to
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: get between two places, is that not because of infrastructural
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: management rather than the number of people.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, because the infrastructure is not built to support the
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: population that inhabits the space that you're in at the moment.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: The infrastructure that we have in this country was designed,
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: you know, one hundred years ago whatever.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know when the motorways were built, but seventy
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: fifty sixties sometime around down I guess which was told
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: me if I'm wrong about that. But you know, that
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: was a different world frankly at that time, and certainly
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: Britain would not have felt overpopulated at that stage. But
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: you know, we have put how many cars does the
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: average family have now? How many additional families do we
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: have in the country. How many families are not families anymore?
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Because they've split up and so you know, they're so
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: the issue not never mind the immigration issue, the issue
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: of the way that we are living our lives compounds
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: the effect and the feeling that we are in an
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: overpopulated society. It's just about the fact we cannot go
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: about our daily lives in the way that we should
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: be able to because the infrastructure is you know, we
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: should not in the UK, for example, be experiencing host
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: pipe bands in the summer because it rains, you know,
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: so much, and that we are on the eastern end
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: of the Atlantic Ocean, of course it rains, and yet
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: we have water shortages. Is it because there's less riin No,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: it's because we don't have the water infrastructure and the
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: reservoirs sufficient to support the population that we've decided to
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: have in this country. But that's not an overpopulation issue
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: in and of itself.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: It is an infrastructure issue at the end of the day.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Because my resistance to the whole of the population discussion is, okay,
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: now what what.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: In sense of getting rid of the population? You have
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: a war, you have a war, or or you have
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: you have a you know, a plandemic, and you kill
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: people in the hospitals whatever, or you implement a euthanasia.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: All these things together have an effect.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: And and but frankly, the big population bomb.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: That we have at the moment is is is the
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: the the demographic of young versus old, and the fact
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: that we're not breeding. We have you know, and this
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: is not a this is not a Western problem either.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: This is happening right across the world. But humanity, no,
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: it's everywhere. If humanity is not breeding, and you know,
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: so our population problem that we have at the moment
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: is absolutely if we if if it is a problem,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: is absolutely temporary. So but but in the meantime we
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: are going to we are absolutely coming up against major
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: pressures in terms of in the next twenty years.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: There's the number of older people that are going to
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: need help and support.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: The fact that that we are not going to have
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: young people there to help and support those older people.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: And that's where I see even more pressure coming on
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: for legalized killing of old people.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: That's the thinking that there is a pretty dark direction, hasn't.
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: It that there you go, it has taken Well, they'll
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: just come to the Kruger Park and climb outside the
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: coal When the Alliance Walking Post but I mean, this
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: overpopulation thing is is a very very multi layered conversation
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: because at the beginning, Mike, you know, you pointed out
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: that perception is the is the is the important word
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: yet because it is about perception, because as as Charles
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: pointed out, it depends where you go, and you'll find
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: that there are a lot of open spaces with perhaps
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: there are people, but not that many people, and so
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: so what happens is that you end up with a
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: with a concentration of localization. And that's precisely what we're
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: seeing in cities. Perhaps one London is the way it is,
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: but I mean, surely yeah.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: But you're you're introducing a whole other talking point there
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: because because the concentration in cities, of course is also
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: something which has been engineered and is the gender right.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: But something that Charles can comment more on on this.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: The the other issue that that that of course we
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: face as over the next couple of decades is going
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: to be how we feed ourselves. And you know that
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: that's a large part of the of the equation here
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: is if we have allowed our our transport and energy
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: and water infrastructure to collapse, we're also allowing our food
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: production infrastructure to collapse, so that also feeds into the
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: idea of overpopulation.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: But you know, Charles, what are your thoughts?
• 23:46
  Speaker 5: Well, let's you know.
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: We we discussed this following Wednesday's news program because having
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: been put onto it by Mike. In the first instance,
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: I reported on actually a quite disturbing peace from the
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: Food Standards Age and for the well actually both the
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: United Kingdom and the non United Kingdom audience. The Food
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: Standards Agency holds the task of regulating how food is
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: produced in order to to well, we really have food
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: is sort of meeting the end user, the whoever's going
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: to eat it, to make sure that it's safe. Now,
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: of course, it doesn't take much thinking to consider that
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: what they might mean by safe is not necessarily what
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: you or eye might mean by safe. But what was
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: what's been completely staggering is that in the face of
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: exactly what Mike's describing you or both of you, you know,
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: the idea that food may become scarce. You know, the
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: answer to the regulator, frankly, who has nothing to do
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: with deciding where food should come from. All they're there
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: to do, all they should be there to do is
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: to evaluate what you hold under their noses. And yet
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: the lady running it has taken it upon herself to
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: list in this rather extraordinary document a load of effectively
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: tech solutions for food. So it's all to do with
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: growing or producing fake food growing. When I say growing,
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: I mean from cultures. You know, we're talking everything being
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: in a controlled lab based environment.
• 25:14
  Speaker 5: It's as though she really.
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: Does not understand what food, what part food plays in
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: the in life, as in the relationship between the land,
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: the environment, the animal and plant kingdoms and mankind. She
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: doesn't get it, so that in itself is disturbing. The
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: reason I mentioned that was where the conversation went was
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: when there is pressure put on a system, I think
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: in the first instance, that system, or at least the
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: people using it, are forced to make it become more
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: lean for want of a better word, and the way
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: I see it, and this would be applied the world over.
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: But because of the industrialization of food, amount of waste
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: and indeed unnecessary inputs and outputs is completely phenomenal. So
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: there's a huge amount of efficiency that could be derived
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: from just changing some of the ways in which food
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: is produced and transported and purchased and everything else. So
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: that's one thing. People wasting less food, which they do
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: waste an enormous amount of that. That really is a
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: big one. And then people just making better choices, you know,
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: is the answer. Because again this is going back to
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: this food this Food Standards Agency document that what was
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: completely absurd is that in the whole of her written piece,
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: the only two food stuffs that were actually referred to
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: as something that might end up on your plate were
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: chocolates and mashed potato. I mean, we don't need either
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: of those things. You can live life without chocolate and
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: mashed potato. And yet that was sort of her answer.
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: Why.
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: I mean, just you can just three D print chocolate
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: and mashed potato and we're all, you know, we're home dry.
• 26:58
  Speaker 5: No, I don't think that's really how it works.
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: So I think again, going you know, on the population
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: and infrastructure thing, it's just exactly like what you quoted
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: Carla saying, it's just having a system that matches its.
• 27:10
  Speaker 5: Its intended use. And it's you know, if you try.
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: And put twenty people on one bicycle, it's probably not
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: going to work. But if your city, and this is
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: what Mike and I saw when we were in Chong
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: Cheng back in January February, exactly like your Shanghai photograph
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: of riding bicycle and thinking well, where the heck is everybody?
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: It had the same sort of feel that wider city
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: area has over thirty million people.
• 27:34
  Speaker 5: Living in it.
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: At no point, except for one very very touristy place
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: at night, which is always busy because people go there
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: to sort of take photographs stuff, it didn't feel congested
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: or busy at all. The UK, from having with the
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: rose tinted spectacles on, did have I think, I believe,
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: an infrastructure that was absolutely appropriate for the popular then
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: and the population as it was projected to be. And
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: then it was, I think post war the beginning of
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: the destruction of all of that, and the idea of
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: actually I did want to talk about this because I
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: was thinking about it with your fiber cable. But the
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: idea that rather than creating things that are genuinely innovative
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: and new and a good idea, it's just been a
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: constant process of replacement.
• 28:21
  Speaker 5: So what did they do?
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: Decided Okay, well let's let's get rid of all the
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: railways because they're really good and they work really well,
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: and they're they're affordable, and let's let's put the put
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: the onus back on the individual to go and buy
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: a car to use one of these new motorways. And okay, fine,
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: there may have been a period of time where that worked,
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: but of course, with the way in which population has
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: increased and the continued deterioration and overpricing of the railways,
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: you're then you're then trapped in this. Well, hang on,
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: this is definitely not better than how things were before.
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: And and by creating something that you're calling a motorway,
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: this is not a new thing. You're just trying to
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: replace the railway and it doesn't work in the same
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: way that this. You know, all these digital things, so
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: many of them are just intended to replace a perfectly good, analogue,
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: existing system, rather than creating something that adds to what
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: we already have. And I thought, I do see that
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: as being at the heart of quite a lot of
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: our problems, just this incessant drive to just re you know,
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: in effect, reinvent the wheel to what end It's just pointless.
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: And now you talk to people who are younger, and
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: I remember having this conversation trying to set up sorry,
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: which is why the fiber thing prompts me. I was asking, well, look,
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: I want to have a landline telephone, and I don't
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: want to use a wireless what you call it cordless.
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: And she, you know that she had never even seen
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: a plug in landline telephone like you'd have had, you know,
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: twenty thirty years ago. So the whole concept to her
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: was one that required her to think in digital terms,
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: how you could achieve that, and all the various component
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: parts you might have to facilitate this coming off a
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: fiber cable. And I just said, look, seriously, fifteen years ago,
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: this is just how it worked.
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: But Charles, I mean, our cell phones are charging so
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: often that we might as well call them landlines.
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: Well there is that, yeah, but they anyway, let's not
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: get dragged down that.
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you mentioned Mike, you mentioned food shortages earlier. And
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: I had two great episodes last week, right, one was
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: Farmer Angus but regenerative farming and food MA disease. But
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: the one that was actually about solutions with Jim Gayle
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: gets as predicted, very little traction, and yet it is
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: such such a good talking point. You know, you're growing,
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: growing food in schools, growing food around prisons, on church grants.
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: Instead they have graveyards which excuse the punel or just
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: dead space. What they could be doing is growing food
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: preps in and around prisons, perfect opportunity, schools, perfect opportunity.
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: This isn't really being done on any on any looks.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: So you do understand why that is, though, I mean,
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: the reason.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Isn't that because during the Second World War Dig for
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: Britain whatever it was, whatever it was called, I can't
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: remember the exact brand name, but anyway, the point was
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: everybody was doing exactly that. Every piece of land was
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: doing exactly that. And as Charles mentioned in a previous
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: program when we went to chong Cheng and we're driving
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: through the countryside outside chang Cheng, this was the same thing.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: Every piece of land is being cultivated that they can
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: possibly cultivate. This is not being encouraged now because for
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: exactly the reason that Charles has just described, the Food
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Standards Agency, being the regulator for food safety in the UK,
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: is now in the job of promoting the types of
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: lab grown non food products which are going to be
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: sold to us in the not too distant future. The
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: point is we are humanity at this point in time
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: is already being farmed. It's being farmed on many many levels,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: being farmed digitally for our data, and it's certainly being
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: farmed through the healthcare system because because we are just
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: a commodity for the big farmer companies, something that they
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: pump their drugs into and they get paid for. And
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: the same is going to be for the food and
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: all these startup companies supported by the likes of Bilgates
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: and others that are going to provide these these proteins
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: and lab grown junk. I mean, I suppose in popular culture,
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: if you remember the Matrix, when Neo comes out of
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: the comes out of battery bank that he was in
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: and ends up on the whatever the craft was called,
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: I can't remember now, and what was it they were
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: eating this sort of glooby slob that was that was
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: supposedly nutritionally capable of supporting a human body, but actually
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: it couldn't have been described as the food in the
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: sense that we know what that's the direction we seem
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: to be heading in, and again it's another profit center
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: for a corporation that is farming humanity. We've got to
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: recognize that that's what is actually happening to us.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: And reject that entire way of life.
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: My discussion with Cynthia Chung kind of overlaps this because
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: she was talking about enthusiasm, Malthusianism and the limits to
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: growth narrative, and the point that she was making is
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: that humans have always had the ability to adapt and
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: innovate and there never needs to be scarcity. And of
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: course the idea of scarcity is directly linked to the
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: idea of overpopulation and having to reduce families and break
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: apart all these things and not grow food independently, and
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: it just becomes this whole web that just gets pulled
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: down over you. And because there are so many loads
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: that you need to try and disconnect, and it becomes
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: very very confusing for the average person. I think to
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: figure out which way to look.
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: I would I mean, I would agree, I think I
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: think it is terribly confusing, but it's it is. It is,
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: to be fair, I think it's a very confusing world
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: that we live in.
• 34:23
  Speaker 5: I mean, you think.
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: Scarcity if you say, at its simplest level, scarcity is
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: really just a question of being in the wrong place,
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: and to change that at the individual level can be
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: quite challenging.
• 34:37
  Speaker 5: Sorry, what I mean by that is that.
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: Prior to the decision by people to agglomerate in urban
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: areas what we might now describe as urban areas, you
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: would you would follow the food, or you would follow
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: whatever you needed, you know, so that there was idea
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: of scarcity therefore was in a affect self imposed. If
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: you found that something was scarce, it's because you were
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: just in the wrong place because that thing wasn't there.
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: You either exhausted it, or it had moved or whatever
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: it was, so you followed it. Of course, centuries have
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: passed since that state really has existed for the vast
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: majority of people on Earth now, and it means that
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: our ability to engineer the outcome with regard to scarcity
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: is is much more difficult, or all the relationship is
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: sort of is inverted because we by and large we
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: don't have the ability to go somewhere that there is
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: not a scarcely. I mean, the really good example at
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: the moment is looking at what's happening to the prices
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: at the petrol pumps across certainly, Yeah, I mean even
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: I was down in Plymouth Tuesday Wednesday this week. I
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: saw on my way back on Wednesday night, I saw
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: a petrol price that was what was it one pound
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: seventy one per liter? Now near where I live, just
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: before the current conflict in Iran started, the average price
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: of fuel around here was about one pound twenty seven
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: and that so sorry. The point is that even between
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: Tuesday and Wednesday, that price is jumped by about another
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: ten pence a liter, and that is you know, okay,
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: there is basically price fixing going on. But that is
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: because the conditions of scarcity are being created by not
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: necessarily the actions the hostile actions of any particular player
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: in that region, but because for insurance purposes, vessels.
• 36:46
  Speaker 5: Carrying oil won't move it.
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: So there's not there's not actually a scarcity of oil there,
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: but the conditions make it appear as though there's a scarcity,
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: and what can we do about it?
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: Not such?
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: Yes, you see, That's that's why I'm just going to
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: push back a little bit, Charles on your comment that
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: the food standards, as you see, Lily doesn't get it.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: I think she does get it, or at least she
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: is part of an overall picture here. If we consider
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: the economic disaster around the covidocracy, and then we had
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: immediately hit by the Ukraine situation and the resulting price
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: rises there, and now we're getting this conflict, which was,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: as you know, as everybody knows, was absolutely a matter
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: of choice. That was a decision that was made to
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: do this at this time, and absolutely I believe, understanding
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: the economic consequences of doing it, we are building that
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: We're not we, but they are creating an economic environment
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: which is going to be ripe for this new food,
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: whatever food and inverted commas, to be brought to market.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: We've got to look at this in the context of
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: the fact that Bill Gates has been buying up huge
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: quantities of land and so all these all these stars
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: seem to be aligning in a particular direction. Is that
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: a coincidence? I find it very hard to believe that
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: it's a coincidence. I think it's it's absolutely part of
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: a of an agenda. And and therefore, you know, she
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: herself may not quite understand her role in that agenda,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: but but but she is.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: I think it's it's.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: We gotta we've got to understand that that this is
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: being set up for us in a particular way, that
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: we are prepared to accept a particular future which has
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: already been designed someone.
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: Also said the other day, Sorry, someone said the other day,
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: Mike that this fuel price hike, they're kicking the can
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: on the road and blaming the Warner run. But in
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: actual fact it was always going to come because of
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: the advent of plug in vehicles and going ev and
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: pushing for for the whole sustainable future that the UN
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: is driving.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: It's I mean, I don't know the answer to that,
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: but but again it's it all seems to just slot
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: into place, doesn't it.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: And so you know, some.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: People would view that as being a very conspiratorial worldview,
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: but it does. It doesn't have to be conspiracy in
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: the sense of, you know, a couple of hundred people
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: sitting in a room and saying we're going to do this.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: But when when people's people's visions for the future aligned,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: then inevitably you end up with the same kind of effect.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: Whether it's a formal conspiracy or not, the effect is
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: the same.
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: But the thing is just again, on that, I think
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: it's very, very absurd to think that Agenda twenty thirty
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: would now suddenly be forgotten. Obviously, the UN and its
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: aligned organizations and governments are still very much in the game,
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: and they are going to push for all of these
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: goals no matter what people have forgotten. I mean everybody
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: was talking about it COVID and now suddenly what are
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: they just going to now no longer attempt those goals
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: that they were attempting.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: No, no, look, these agendas ebb and flow. That doesn't change.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: They never they're nothing has gone away. They ebb and
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: flow and things take precedence at this stage. And you know,
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: it doesn't matter whether it takes five years or fifty
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: years to get to a point in time, and so
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: whichever is.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: And of course part of this is just the way
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: it is.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Presented in the public mind by the mainstream media or
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: whomever it happens to be, by politicians and so on.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: But you know, the agendas themselves don't disappear. They just
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: take precedence for a while and then take a back
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: seat for a little bit, and then they come back
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: with a vengeance.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: So no, it hasn't gone away.
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: And I think no will it because what it Since
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: it's articulated in across seventeen goals, all of which have
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: specific criteria attached them, it's absolutely perfect because it provides
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: the ready answer to well, why why doing any of that, well,
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: it's because we're pursuing, you know, in line with the
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: sustainable development goals, according to our policy of whatever.
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: So just you can make it all fit.
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: I mean, like when we went back to you know,
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: we look back to twenty twenty, default answer for any decision,
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: whether idiotic, catastrophic or worse, it was due to COVID,
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: doesn't matter, didn't matter what anyone did, how much exactly
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: like you say, this was coming down the track that
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: you know, you're shutting down the economy. It's going to
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: be a disaster. People are going to die. Yeah, but
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: I mean we've got to do it, you know, due
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: to COVID. It was amazing, and people it was like
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: it just flicked a switch in people's brains that you
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: just heard the words due to COVID and you just think,
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: ah right, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, I'll go along with
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: that then because that makes sense.
• 41:54
  Speaker 5: We have to do it due to COVID, and it's
• 41:57
  Speaker 5: I would say, it's the same.
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: So if you're you know, if you're challenged or anything,
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: well it's because we're you know, I mean, what are
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: you saying. You're saying we shouldn't pursue the UN sustainable
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: development goals. What do you want the world to explode?
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: So I think it always it will always retain that value.
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: That's why when I bought my car recently, I'm made
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: sure that it was petrol and not not hybrid or
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: or battery.
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you know, wouldn't it be interesting if
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: if Iran was the world's leading producer of lithium?
• 42:34
  Speaker 5: I wonder what would be happening now.
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: The thing is, though, it creates a strange psychological duchotomy,
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: because there's nothing inherently wrong with elitary vehicles, you know,
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: or sustainable energy. There's there's nothing wrong actually with solar
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: panels on your roof. But when you talk about it,
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: you get this this resistance because you know what the
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: agenda is, and it makes it difficult then to have
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: a reasonable conversation because it becomes so polarizing.
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but I would say, I mean, you don't even
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: have to get so far as the agenda. It's just
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: the absolute hypocrisy of writing zero emissions on a vehicle
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: because it doesn't have an exhaust pipe and trying to
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: convince somebody that therefore there's absolutely no ecological or environmental
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: consequence of building that car, or the battery that sits
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: in it, or the charging processes or all the rest
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: of it.
• 43:27
  Speaker 5: I mean, I totally agree with you.
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: The idea of making an electric car, which let's also
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: point out is well over one hundred years old as
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: a concept and as something that's actually been done. So
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: we're definitely not back to the reinventing the literally the wheel.
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: But so there's the it's just the great con of, yes,
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: we're going to preserve our landscape by putting these ghastly
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: wind turbines in it, rather than just saying, look, actually,
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: if you do make a wind turbine you can generate
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: a certain amount of electricity at some point during the day.
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: If we do do it, everywhere will look horrible and
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: we'll make a complete mess, but we might have a
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: little bit more power at times, which might suit certain
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: communities due to certain factors. Rather than trying to pretend
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: that this is in the name of protecting the environment
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: which is apparently being destroyed by activities that are simply
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: not destroying an it's just the bare faced stack of
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: lies that accompany it. Because I totally agree to create
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: you know, if you are somewhere in the middle of
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: nowhere and you're able to generate power from soda panels
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: and wind or water turbines or whatever it is, Well,
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: why wouldn't you do it?
• 44:46
  Speaker 5: Of course you would.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: It is incredible. It's exactly the same as COVID again,
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: right because you know, we were told you've got to
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: take this vaccine. It's going to see the world, And
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: of course there was no full disclosure about anything. People
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: were told one story about it. It's exactly the same
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: with electric cars or electric anything, because you're told it's
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: environmentally clean, that there's no omissions, that it's going to
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: help deal with.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: The global warming problem.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: But of course there's no full disclosure about the lithium mining,
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: the cobalt mining, the actual production process for the turbine itself,
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: the fact that you've got to put a base, a
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: massive concrete base in the ground in order to attach
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: it to and no discussion of the of the environmental
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: impact of any of that stuff, no discussion of child
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: labor used in cobalt minds or lithium minds and all
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: the other rareers that are required in the in the
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: generating kit that sits at the top of it. So
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: you know, without without people getting the full picture. No
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: real decision can never be made about whether this is
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: the right way to be running our lives. You know,
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: people are just so propagandized on everything that there can
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: never be any real proper decisions made anything. That's why
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: people become sort of non playing characters to use that
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: old trope, and they just allow the world to drift
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: past and of course become victims of events.
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: What's really ironic, though, Mike, is I've noticed people. You're
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: correct when when you say people don't have enough information,
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: so they make poorly informed decisions like injecting themselves in
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: the arm or whatever. Right, Yet it's inverted because they'll
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: put huge amounts of energy into knowing what's in the
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: next cell phone that they're going to buy. They'll spend
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: days researching the next gadget, but they won't spend five
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: minutes thinking about what's being injected into the.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, they won't do that. Term.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: They will investigate the features that are provided by that device,
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: but they will not consider but that's only that's only
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: part of the picture. They won't they won't consider the
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: environmental impact of the production of that device in the
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: first place. And even you know, and I include people
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: that are absolutely leading the charge for on the global
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: warming issue. They don't consider these things either. I don't
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: see very many of the big campaigners on the on
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: these sort of environmental issues that aren't using devices that
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: are that are environmentally devastating.
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: You're gonna, said Charles.
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: It's just, I mean, disappointingly. There's just been a really
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: sort of apposite example of this because there's what's being
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: described as an outbreak of meningitis in the southeast of
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: England at the moment, and I heard young because it
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: happened I think sort of supposed to have first started
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: on a university campus. I think I'm correct in saying
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: so they've interviewed a couple of the young stoudents to say,
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: you know, so, so what about it, because of course
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: what have they done. They've offered it, dusted off the
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: the vaccine and offered it to people. And of the
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: two people I heard saying that they'd accepted it, the
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: first said, well, you know, I know that, I know
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: antibiotics do do do a good job, but really, you know,
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: the vaccine is the vaccine is the real deal. That
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: sort of that's where that's where it's at I mean,
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: it was just it was basically she was just susceptible
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: to the marketing. So she said yeah, So so therefore
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: I took it. And the next chap said said, yeah,
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: usually usually I wouldn't, but this they were offering this
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: one for free, and usually, you know, normally you have
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: to pay for it.
• 48:34
  Speaker 5: So yeah, so I took it.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: And do you'll be paid for it for the rest
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: of his life?
• 48:40
  Speaker 5: Yeah?
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: No, absolutely in the NHS system.
• 48:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, seriously, I mean, can you imagine basing you know,
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: I don't his health even the right word, but a
• 48:48
  Speaker 4: health decision on whether or not it costs you sort
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: of five or six pounds if you genuinely believe, yes,
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: this thing might save my life. But at the moment
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: they're still charging a fiver for it.
• 49:00
  Speaker 5: I'll probably just leave it.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: You know, I arrived home the other day and there
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: was a letter sitting waiting for me, and I thought,
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: the heck's that? So I opened it and inside was
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: was an invitation from my doctor's surgery, which by the way,
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: I did not register with. I was somebody registered on
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: my behalf, but that's neither here or there suggesting that
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: I haven't had a blood pressure check in a very
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: long time, and maybe I should come and have one.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you can imagine what happened to that piece
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: of paper.
• 49:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and indeed your blood pressure. Yeah, I'll see.
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: We're coming in for the last few minutes. So I
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: want to circle back to the beginning of this chat
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: and just just make you feel jealous about the matchup.
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: Take a look at that.
• 49:49
  Speaker 5: That.
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, is yet another reason why I live on the
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: African continent. Charles. You experienced that, didn't you?
• 49:56
  Speaker 5: What did?
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: You're off through the window of a vehicle many times.
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: And actually, what I would say is anyone who's not
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: really spent any time thinking about giraffes but wants to
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: see something amazing and then this must exist on YouTube,
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: go onto YouTube and search for giraffes running, because there
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: is nothing quite like watching actually all drinking. Watching giraffes
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: drink is incredible, but watching a giraffe run, it's probably
• 50:20
  Speaker 4: quite difficult on video. But basically, giraffes look like they're
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: running in slow motion.
• 50:25
  Speaker 5: But my goodness said it, run quickly. They are. They
• 50:27
  Speaker 5: are extraordinary.
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: Creatures speaking straordinary yeah, go on, well, speak of extraordinary
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: this right, Yeah?
• 50:35
  Speaker 5: Sorry, you've got your leopard? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: That is something that is something you almost never see,
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: even if you even if you go on a game drive,
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: a leopard is incredibly difficult to spot.
• 50:47
  Speaker 5: Haha.
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: Made a pandy, Mike, have you been to I've never
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: asked you, have you ever been to a game park that.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: I have never been to Africa at all, And that
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: is absolutely a continent I've got a off my bucket
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: list because it there is on my bucket list. I
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: think I absolutely would love to visit. But that's such
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: a huge place. Where do you go?
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: You go to Kruger. I mean, look at this right
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: that was just right next to the vehicle. I mean,
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: that is huge and magnificent. It is just it's difficult
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: to explain from a photograph until you are right next
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: to it and.
• 51:26
  Speaker 5: We're looking at an elephant.
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: Yes, and that of course yes, And of course that
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: was the line ness the mom she was looking for
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: her cub that we're missing right in front of our vehicle.
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: But I want to point out that through all of
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: the negativity of what's going on in the world, just
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: for a brief moment in time, I think it is
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: so healthy to get art into nature if you can
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: get out. We also had no cell phone signal pretty
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: much for the entire trip, I mean, and it's very
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: difficult when you are used to having connectivity all the
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: time to suddenly not be in that and then there's
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: a sense of liberation that comes with that, and then
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: you are forced to enjoy the moment to be present.
• 52:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: Well that was a really good point, and I have
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: to say that that was one other aspect of China
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: that was fascinating, because you know, in the UK you
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: go into the countryside and quite often the mobile phone
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: signal becomes patchy or worse. In China, there's nowhere you
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: can go where there isn't one. I think there are
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: massive advantages to the African way of doing things. Just
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: don't build that infrastructure in the first place.
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sackon that col made an interesting point. I don't
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: know if it's true, but he said, because Tibet is
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: part of China and if you want to climb not
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: Kimnjaro Everest Everest. He says they've set up cell phone
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: towers now that you can even talk right from the
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: very summit. I don't know if that's true, but I
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: don't think just all the nonsense, all right, my Charles
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: appreciate chatting to the internet connection here and the coffee
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: shop has lasted, and hopefully by the time we chat
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: next week my fiber line will be up and running.
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: But thanks guys for joining me in the trink.