Latest / Overthinking Games / Ep 65: Teleological Thinking

Transcript

Ep 65: Teleological Thinking · Overthinking Games

0:02
SPEAKER_00: Alrighty.
0:04
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Overthinking Games, a podcast about what video games can teach us.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: Whether or not God exists.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
0:15
SPEAKER_00: That's only what we're going to learn about today, children.
0:18
SPEAKER_03: Katie seems to think that it's like a give and take.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: It is.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: 100% it is.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: Do this and you'll get this.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: Believe in God and you get to go to heaven.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: Come on, I'm not a Christian, but I that's also not a universal baseline.
0:36
SPEAKER_03: It's a little more complicated than that, but sure.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: I thought you were talking about how to construct a syllogism.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: Like you were uninterested in the arguments for God because you didn't want to like construct a syllogism.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what a syllogism is.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
0:51
SPEAKER_01: It's like a it's just like an if then.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: It's like a it's like a formal I'm not gonna spell it.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:02
SPEAKER_03: Good start.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: Anyway.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Overthinking Games, a podcast about what video games can teach us.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: My name is Katie, and I am joined by my two co-hosts, Demsey.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: Hi.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna talk we're we're doing the teleological argument today.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: And Seth.
1:19
SPEAKER_03: I've had too much time off.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: It's fantastic.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, so we are going to be talking about teleol tel oh my god, no.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: Teleolog Oh god.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: Teleological teleol teleological.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: I can't I was saying it just fine before and you messed up.
1:38
SPEAKER_01: Teleology.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: Teleology versus teleological thinking versus non-teleological thinking.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Dear God.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: So basically the idea is that tele you have screwed me up with this pronunciation thing.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: Um teleological thinking is the idea that everything has an inherent purpose and that you do X to get Y, right?
2:02
SPEAKER_00: You're doing it for a purpose.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: Non-teleological thinking is more about experience for its own sake, um, doing something something exists and because it exists, something else happens, but not it doesn't exist in order for that thing to happen, if that makes sense.
2:20
SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna talk about it more.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna become hopefully less confusing.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: But the reason that I wanted to talk about this topic is because um I find that there is a great deal of uh demand with teleological thinking, such as, oh, I have 200 games in my Steam library that I've never touched, I should play that so that I can decrease my backlog.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: So that is teleological, and I am playing the game in order to decrease my backlog rather than just playing a game because I like the game and it's a fun experience, right?
2:54
SPEAKER_00: And as soon as you add in those like inherent goals, all of a sudden my brain says, Hell no, I can't do that.
3:02
SPEAKER_00: I need to play Hexa Swordmaster.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: So that's what got me onto this topic, but we'll talk about it more.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: First, what have we been playing this week?
3:11
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so Katie's banned from this part.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: All right, take my headphone out, give me two thumbs up when I can come back on.
3:18
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: So me and Seth, so Josh from The Gamer's Drink has been bullying me for the last couple months to finally play uh Claire Obscura Expedition 33.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: I am midway through act three, and Seth, you want to talk about where you were?
3:36
SPEAKER_03: I rolled credits.
3:37
SPEAKER_03: Which is very funny because last episode I had not yet purchased this game.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: It's I am I think I am playing it in a slow way, in the sense that I refuse to level up when I meet a boss that's too powerful for me.
3:52
SPEAKER_01: And what level are your characters?
3:54
SPEAKER_01: They're like a 50 something?
3:57
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I ended the game at like 52, 53.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there there's a lot of like free world bosses that are are it seems like you're meant to do them in a certain order to like get pictos to make a boss easier.
4:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I and I had posted uh my different builds in the chat, which I figured would humor you in some way.
4:19
SPEAKER_03: But like I and I'll talk about this I guess tomorrow when it's like my time, but I've kind of decided that I don't know if I want to like play this game more.
4:32
SPEAKER_03: Because like I'm I'm pretty happy with like having be in it.
4:37
SPEAKER_03: Um I don't really want to go through and like do all the overworld bosses and stuff.
4:42
SPEAKER_03: I just like don't care that much.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: Do you have a do you have a how long it took you to be?
4:48
SPEAKER_03: Uh I'd I'd have to go look.
4:51
SPEAKER_03: I wanna say I mean it's not a super long game.
4:53
SPEAKER_03: I wanna say like max 25 hours.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: I am currently at 48 hours.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: Holy I am also bad at this game.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: Like, just like functionally, the parries are difficult.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: And every time I have to learn a new boss's moveset, that is a difficult thing for me to do.
5:13
SPEAKER_01: And the the overworld botches will have different movesets, a lot of them.
5:18
SPEAKER_03: And so it's about like the chromatic versions of the enemies have like an extended moveset.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: Yes, and that's annoying, and so there's a lot of things that I'm relearning.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: So, okay, so spoilers, so that's that's like our non-spoiler talk.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: Spoilers for uh Claire Abscura Expedition 33.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: If I suggest it's funny because there's like layers of spoilers.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: So I would suggest trying to go in as spoiler-free as possible.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: What I will say is that the uh freedom that opens up after Act 2 for me makes it feel like a very different game.
5:53
SPEAKER_01: Flying because it's flying and also the amount of damage that you can do.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: So like the damage on caps.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like the it's at that point it's different enough.
6:05
SPEAKER_01: So like uh so like that I this is like mechanical stuff, not story spoilers.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: But there's a character I can pretty much like my system is Luna is my mage and she heals.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: Uh Cecil, the or whatever her name is, she builds up blocks, and so she's able to resuscitate Luna if Luna gets down, and then uh the um not not Gustav, the other one.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: Um Verso.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: Verso, yeah, Verso.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: Verso is the only one who does massive amounts of damage.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh and Verso will end up doing like a half a million in damage uh by like the third turn.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: That's so like and so like that's kind of like my main system is that Cecil's her purpose is to keep Luna alive, Luna is to keep Verso healed, and Verso is to do as much damage as possible.
7:04
SPEAKER_03: And then on my reserve See, I and then I totally didn't play the game like this.
7:09
SPEAKER_03: Like, okay I went very intentionally, like equally level all of my characters.
7:15
SPEAKER_03: I'm not really playing for like inner character synergy that much.
7:19
SPEAKER_03: Um I did it for like a little bit, but like I had pretty rigid, like oh, Verso on his turn is using like the double base attack weapon.
7:28
SPEAKER_03: So like he attacks twice, he's got some stuff that like boosts his base attacks, and then you start with enough like energizing starts that he can because if you do like double base attack and then you restart your turn, which is like I part of what his weapon was or something, that's essentially like plus three AP for your turn.
7:50
SPEAKER_03: And then I would just start him with like two energizing starts, so he could go like double attack and then drop like a like a nine AP attack right after that.
8:00
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
8:00
SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's but like I would he would output like 23,000 damage, and that's I was like, I'm happy with that.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I I have him kind of optimize for like as much I have him with the one where every time you hit it gets more damage.
8:19
SPEAKER_03: I have no idea.
8:20
SPEAKER_03: See, like this is why I don't want to continue playing this game, because like I just don't have a desire to do the like JRPG style like massive damage stacking, which I'm sure yeah, I saw somebody talking about like oh the back half of the game, they just like one-shot every boss.
8:36
SPEAKER_03: Like it just didn't matter.
8:37
SPEAKER_03: They were just doing like five million damage with like every turn.
8:40
SPEAKER_03: And I was like, oh, yeah.
8:42
SPEAKER_03: So like I'm nowhere close to that, so like I'm not even gonna bother.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then and then Mael, who I think is uh the most complicated character in the game, uh she starts in virtuous or virtuoso stance, and then as long as she doesn't get hit, she gets to stay there.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: And just do she's on she's on my reserve team, and she just does ungodly amounts of damage, and then she builds up burn really fast.
9:11
SPEAKER_01: So like pretty much her damage, like it's ungodly amounts of damage, and then doubled.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then she also has things that like make everyone weak to fire and things like that.
9:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: And so the problem is, is I played this game like I like to play Dark Souls, which is to max out everything but defense and health.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: And so I get one shot.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: I get every boss one shots every character.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: Because I because I only I only optimize for like damage health and nothing else.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: And so I I play it like I played Elden Ring, where like it's very powerful, but very fragile characters.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: And so when when I get a win, it's because I parried literally every attack.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: That's the only way I get a win at this point.
9:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
10:00
SPEAKER_03: Uh I don't know.
10:02
SPEAKER_03: I've I mean, a lot of okay, and just because again, I want to bring Katie in here, so she's not gone for forever.
10:10
SPEAKER_03: A lot of what I found fun for Expedition 33, and there's a lot of like spoiler stuff I want to talk.
10:14
SPEAKER_03: But like the parry system I thought was really, really good.
10:17
SPEAKER_03: I thought like each of the characters felt very unique, which I thought was very, very good.
10:25
SPEAKER_03: Um, which I was a little worried that the game wasn't gonna do well, and then like as you get further, each of the characters really does feel like they sort of do their own thing.
10:34
SPEAKER_03: Um I'm a little confused because I feel like there's stuff I've missed out on, because like I don't know.
10:41
SPEAKER_03: I I know that SK can go underwater, but I have not figured out how to do that so far.
10:48
SPEAKER_03: Um, which must mean there's some upgrade somewhere.
10:51
SPEAKER_03: And then there's these like vines and little trees that have like blue through them, which I presume there's something that you can do with.
10:59
SPEAKER_03: Um and I've not figured that out.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: So Yes.
11:02
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I'm I'm right there too.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: So so I think I think I do like this game enough to where I will probably follow a guide to do that stuff and do a lot of the optional bosses.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm really I'm really enjoying it that much.
11:15
SPEAKER_03: Oh, that could be fun.
11:17
SPEAKER_03: Alright, should we bring Katie back in?
11:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we should bring Katie back in.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: Hello! It's been a couple weeks since we've recorded, and um so most of my time has been taken up by playing Claire Obscura Expedition 33.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: I'm about 43 hours in.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: Uh this game is not meant to take that long.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: I am playing it like I enjoy playing difficult games, which is in the most inconvenient way possible.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: Um and but um the only other thing I've been playing is Bilatro.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: Um and I've I've gotten to the point where I actually don't know how to keep going.
11:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, like the the different kind of challenges, like you know how they it's like an orange deck or whatever.
11:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: I think I'm stuck on orange deck, and it's just really difficult to do.
12:02
SPEAKER_03: The later ones are really tough.
12:03
SPEAKER_03: Is it like the is it the rental jokers that are messing you up?
12:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's the ones that you can't they don't stick around for more than five turns.
12:12
SPEAKER_03: Uh well, because there's the rental ones that cost money every round, and then yeah, there's the temporary ones.
12:19
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, those are really tough.
12:22
SPEAKER_03: Those later ones are.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's the it's the temp it's the temporary one that that is proving to be difficult for me because it really changes how I built a strategy.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: And then um I I also have fallen out of love.
12:35
SPEAKER_01: I would like to announce a breakup.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: And I think this is this has hit me pretty hard.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: But me and Pokemon, the trading card game, the app, I no longer care about that game.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: I no longer do my two packs a day.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm not I'm not uh I've missed, I think, two decks come out and I don't really care about them.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: I'd maybe sometime in the future I'll get back into it, but like that entire game has just completely lost its allure.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: And I realize that I haven't opened it up for a couple weeks and I also didn't miss it.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: So I'm glad I didn't put any money into it.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: Um and I wish that it was a better game.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, maybe the community is really happy.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'm just not the kind of person to play a live service-card game like that, but I would just like to announce that uh that relationship between me and Pokemon, the trading card game, is ending.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: Well, to everything there is a season.
13:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: And uh but besides that, it's been um following Silksong news.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: Uh, do you guys follow PrimaCon?
13:39
SPEAKER_02: No.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: That feels like a game in and of itself.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but there's a lot of Silksong news that did not happen in the past couple months that was supposed to happen.
13:49
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: So shocking.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: It's been delayed.
13:53
SPEAKER_00: We're all really surprised.
13:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: This is my surprise face.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think I think, yeah, I think that's it.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh so uh Katie, what have you been playing?
14:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh I have been playing Rimworld, and it is a game that came out quite a while ago.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: It is not a new game, but it is new to me, and it is probably my game of the year.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: I love this game.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: So, what it is, for those who don't know, is basically a mixture of I feel like it's a mixture of Age of Empires, Stardy Valley, and The Sims.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: Because the premise of the game is like it's a top-down base builder game where um you start the game with three colonists who have crash landed in this area, and you have to like build a base and a home and get them food and take care of their physical needs and stuff.
14:50
SPEAKER_00: Um But meanwhile, you can't actually control the villagers, you can't tell them specifically what to do.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: So you have to create systems that um help you prioritize stuff to get it done.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: Um so like you have to prioritize like cooking or um like forestry or whatever it is that you need them to do so that they will do it.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, but you can't just tell them, hey, go do this um super easily.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: Like there's some ways you can prioritize things, but just generally speaking, you can't.
15:22
SPEAKER_00: Um and every colonist has a certain level of like skills and interests.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: And so you try to like assign them to tasks that they're skilled or interested in so that they'll do a better job and blah blah blah.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: But what makes this game so much fun is that crazy shit happens.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: Like, half the fun of the game is me texting my brother like you will not believe what happened in Rim World today.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: So, what happened?
15:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna give a quick anecdote as an example.
15:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, this was a catastrophic turn of events, and I actually ended up having to start a new colony.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: But I had my three little colonists and they were chugging along, and I discovered that one of them had a go-juice addiction, and I was like, well, that's fine.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: We'll let this go-juice addiction run its course, and she'll be out of commission while she goes through her withdrawal.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: I have two other colonists, they can do stuff while she's on bed rest, whatever.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: As soon as she becomes incapacitated, we also get attacked by like Jaguar lady or whatever from a nearby uh camp, and she kills one of my remaining colonists and kidnaps the third one.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: So all I have left is my incapacitated colonists, and then a man in black shows up and he rescues her and takes care of her until she can get back on her feet.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: But he also has a go-juice addiction.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: So by the time that she comes back and she's okay, he is incapacitated.
16:55
SPEAKER_01: And what kind of train spy is that?
16:58
SPEAKER_00: And then I had um I had captured a prisoner, and it was in my little prison, and I was trying to encourage this prisoner to join our side, and because you can recruit them, and then a fire broke out.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: But because there's only one colonist capable of doing any work, the prison burned down and killed my prisoner, and half of my entire colony went up in smoke, and it was just a shit show.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: But that was like in the first like hour of starting this new colony, like it went to shit so fast, but it was so crazy, like everything that could happen, and now I've got a new colony going, and it's going much better.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: Um But we have I've made it my mission in this game.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: I have somebody with very high animal handling, and this person can go, and I'm like, you're gonna capture and tame every animal on the map.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: So I have lynx and I have a cougar and I have alpacas, and it's like I'm making like let's build a zoo, and it's just super fun because you can take it any way you want to, any direction.
18:09
SPEAKER_00: You can really focus on like exploring the world and going to different camps and like raiding people, or you can focus on like what I'm doing, which is like homesteading.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, you can there's all kinds of expansions you can get where you can uh like study like eldritch horror anomalies, you can create um a spaceship and go into space and go to a different planet.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: So there's so much to it, and I just love it.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: And I stayed up until one in the morning last night playing, and you all know I go to bed at nine.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: So that was crazy.
18:43
SPEAKER_01: So is this so is it pretty much is there a narrative that's not emergent, or is it like total emergent gameplay?
18:49
SPEAKER_01: Or is there an overarching story?
18:51
SPEAKER_00: Totally emergent gameplay.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's interesting.
18:54
SPEAKER_03: It's very like dwarf fortress-esque colony sim, right?
18:59
SPEAKER_03: Like just is is very intentionally supposed to be like really open-ended.
19:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
19:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
19:07
SPEAKER_03: And also, have you ever played Prison Architect?
19:09
SPEAKER_03: No.
19:10
SPEAKER_03: Okay, I think they're I think they're made out of like the same engine or something.
19:14
SPEAKER_03: It looks exactly like Prison Architect.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: I know that when Rimworld was first made, it was a single creator.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: Um so I don't know what how how big the team is now, but I know it was one dude at the beginning, which is crazy because this game is huge, even just the base game.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, if you haven't played it before, like I would recommend just find a YouTube video and look at it because it's a little bit hard to envision if you don't know what it looks like.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: And it probably sounds like I'm off my rocker.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: But I love what I love about it is that as you're playing, you're given these opportunities to accept or decline these different quests or these different events that are happening.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: And and a lot of the time I will actually just be like, you know what, not right now.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't have my my colony is not well supplied enough to go on this four-day voyage to attack another camp, you know.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: But then there's other times where they're like, hey, we've got these like refugees.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: Do you think you could take them in?
20:13
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, hey, I could build a barracks for them and take them in.
20:17
SPEAKER_00: And then things happen because of that.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: Like, I took in these six refugees, and all of a sudden they were like doing everything for me.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: They advanced my skill tree super far.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: They like tamed all of the really high-level animals, they but they were taking care of the baby, like it was great.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: And then on the last, like in the last couple days that they were there, they betrayed me.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: And and it took me like I think I was playing, it took me like three or four hours of gameplay to recover from the damage that day they did.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: But I did get all of those like skill tree improvements and stuff, so it was kind of worth it.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: But I never saw that coming.
20:55
SPEAKER_00: Because I at first I was like super suspicious, and then my guard went down because they were there for so long and they were so helpful.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh, these guys are great, maybe they'll stay, and then they burned my buildings down.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: That's crazy.
21:08
SPEAKER_00: So, yes.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: You should try it out, you should check it out.
21:12
SPEAKER_00: That's what I've been playing.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, Seth, did you already talk about what you've been playing?
21:16
SPEAKER_03: Um, not really.
21:17
SPEAKER_03: So I so I talked a little bit about uh the fact that like I I rolled credits on Expedition 33, which was pretty sick.
21:27
SPEAKER_03: Good game.
21:28
SPEAKER_03: Um I would probably say it's my favorite game of the year, but like I also ha feel like I haven't played a lot this year.
21:39
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'd have to like track back through my Steam library to like really make a No, I played some good games this year.
21:45
SPEAKER_03: It'll it'll be a little tough at the end of the year to say what my favorite was.
21:50
SPEAKER_03: I did play Blueprints this year.
21:51
SPEAKER_03: Alright, well it's gonna there's some good competition.
21:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I need to play that too.
21:56
SPEAKER_03: Um but like Expedition 33 is definitely a fantastic game.
21:59
SPEAKER_03: It's got a lot of like really great inspiration to it, and it Dempsey made this comment a while back, uh, which I totally agree with.
22:07
SPEAKER_03: It does feel like a games game.
22:10
SPEAKER_03: Uh like there are a lot of elements to this game that are like this is a game.
22:15
SPEAKER_03: Um and it's not trying to be sort of something that's not a game.
22:20
SPEAKER_03: Um, which we'll talk a lot more in depth about when we actually do it in a second.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I because I I kind of take that back, but yeah, go on.
22:29
SPEAKER_03: I think narratively that's not necessarily true, but I think mechanically it tends to be very true.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: Um I say narratively it's very hostile to the idea of video games.
22:39
SPEAKER_03: Sure.
22:40
SPEAKER_03: But um the like one of the things that really stood out to me is I feel like I haven't played a true like action-y adventure game in a while that's not an open world.
22:54
SPEAKER_03: And then you feel like going through parts of the map on Expedition 33, and there's like a lot of invisible walls.
23:01
SPEAKER_03: They're like, don't jump off the ledge.
23:03
SPEAKER_03: And I feel like I have not played a game in a while that's not just like, yeah, you can like jump off the ledge and go like explore that thing you can see.
23:10
SPEAKER_03: This game is very much like, hey, there's like an actual like level designed path for you to take.
23:16
SPEAKER_03: Uh, and there's like a little bit of exploration you can do, but like we mostly like want you to go in this direction.
23:24
SPEAKER_03: Um, which I feel like I'm actually not very used to.
23:27
SPEAKER_03: Uh, but then the overworld map is also very funny because it's this like giant overworld map that's just like there's a bunch of coral in your way, you can't get past.
23:38
SPEAKER_03: Whoa! Like it's you know, it's not even necessarily trying for like versimilitude, it's just kind of being like, Yeah, there's like an obstacle in your way because like we need there to be one so that you like can't go there yet.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: Because there's no map on the other side, just art.
23:56
SPEAKER_03: Well, either there's like no map on the other side, or like we just want you to come back here later.
24:00
SPEAKER_03: So like we've put some like arbitrary obstacle in the way that we'll let you bypass later.
24:05
SPEAKER_03: That like is really only unclearable because your character like can't jump over things, which is just like very funny.
24:15
SPEAKER_03: Um so overall, Expedition 33 is great.
24:19
SPEAKER_03: We'll talk in depth about it when we do an actual episode.
24:22
SPEAKER_03: Um, have been playing RuneScape, not anything super exciting on that front.
24:26
SPEAKER_03: I I wish I had, and I was thinking about this earlier in the week.
24:31
SPEAKER_03: I wish we had Rob from when we started doing this podcast around, because Rob was um uh a lifelong WoW player, and he would talk about his experience with MMOs and sort of coming back to them over time.
24:45
SPEAKER_03: And that is like loosely how I feel about RuneScape.
24:49
SPEAKER_03: I'm kind of in like a general gaming lull, however, like now that I finished Expedition 33, I sort of accomplished a lot of like my big goals I had for myself in RuneScape.
24:58
SPEAKER_03: So now I just kind of feel like in general I don't know what I want to do.
25:01
SPEAKER_03: Um, RuneScape's easy because there's like always something or another to do.
25:06
SPEAKER_03: So if you're like, oh, I should go work on like my farming experience because it'll let me get this upgrade, and that's you know, 1% more efficient than what I was doing before.
25:17
SPEAKER_03: Um But yeah, I don't know.
25:21
SPEAKER_03: It definitely helped that like I found like a clan of people who like doing like events in game.
25:26
SPEAKER_03: So sometimes they'll be like, hey, anyone want to get together and like fight these bosses?
25:30
SPEAKER_03: And you're like, yeah, sure, it's a like community event.
25:34
SPEAKER_03: Um and RuneScape's a great game.
25:36
SPEAKER_03: It's actually like they've had like all-time high player counts like as of recent.
25:42
SPEAKER_03: Um very impressive for uh a point and click simulator that came out in like 1997.
25:52
SPEAKER_03: Um so you know, it's cool that the game is sort of like big.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: It's crazy.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: It's having a resurgence.
26:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's it's kind of on like resurgence number three, which is why they're sort of like all-time high player counts, which is cool.
26:08
SPEAKER_03: But I don't know.
26:09
SPEAKER_03: I feel like I'm just in a weird gaming lull at the moment.
26:12
SPEAKER_03: Like, there's an there's games I I I just have figured out what I want to play next, is I think really the problem.
26:18
SPEAKER_03: Because especially where I am in RuneScape right now, like the game is good for like oh, like my girlfriend and I are gonna like sit down and like watch TV before we go to bed for like an hour or two.
26:29
SPEAKER_03: Oh, okay.
26:30
SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna go on my phone and like literally like click between like a tree and like a campfire for like the next two hours.
26:40
SPEAKER_03: So that I can like level up my woodcutting and fire-making experience because I need that to do my special optional side quest that like popped up.
26:52
SPEAKER_03: You know.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:53
SPEAKER_03: So it's a good game to do on the side, but uh also another game I have on my phone that I've talked about before, but I've sort of been coming back to, is a game called Dungeon Clawer.
27:05
SPEAKER_03: Like Crawler, but like Claw.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
27:09
SPEAKER_03: It's a deck builder roguelite, but your deck is a claw machine, and you have to like grab items out of the claw machine with your claw, and then that's the items you play on your turn.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
27:22
SPEAKER_03: Um, it's very janky, but it is fun.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: Is it also really bullshit?
27:27
SPEAKER_01: Um like how actual claw machines work?
27:30
SPEAKER_03: It can be at times.
27:31
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes you go to go pick something up, and then it like slips out of the claw, and then like, you know, one of your two claws for the turn got wasted, and you're like, fuck.
27:40
SPEAKER_03: Um, but then sometimes you go pick up like six items at once, and you're like, ah so you win some and you lose some, I guess.
27:50
SPEAKER_03: But uh because I was I was on jury duty on uh Monday-Tuesday.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: Get out, for real?
27:57
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I had jury duty.
27:59
SPEAKER_03: Which is fun that it took place during the summer, so I didn't have to uh sorry, what was that?
28:05
SPEAKER_00: I have always wanted to be on jury duty.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: It's a dream of mine.
28:09
SPEAKER_03: No, see, jury duty, I think if I was actually on a jury, it would have been fun, but jury duty was really boring.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: You didn't get selected.
28:17
SPEAKER_03: No, yeah.
28:18
SPEAKER_03: On Monday, I was literally there the entire day.
28:21
SPEAKER_03: I showed up at like 8 a.m.
28:22
SPEAKER_03: and didn't get excused till 4 30.
28:24
SPEAKER_03: Um sit in the jury assembly room for the first half and then sit in like a courtroom for the second half of the day, and then I didn't get picked.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: Did you wish that you had a Steam Deck?
28:37
SPEAKER_03: Um, well, so the thing is in the courtroom, you're not supposed to have any electronics, but like everybody was on their phone.
28:44
SPEAKER_03: Including like the people who worked there.
28:47
SPEAKER_03: So like it was whatever.
28:48
SPEAKER_03: Um, I did read an entire book though while I was there.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: Oh wow, nice.
28:53
SPEAKER_03: Um, and then on Tuesday I was only there for like the first half of the day.
28:56
SPEAKER_02: So they sent me home.
28:58
SPEAKER_03: Dang.
28:59
SPEAKER_03: But uh, I was playing this game on my phone and I had a lot of fun.
29:02
SPEAKER_03: That's cool.
29:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, uh not much more to say about it, I guess.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: Okay, great.
29:08
SPEAKER_03: Well, now that we've once again blown our first half hour, yeah.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: Here we go.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: Let's get into a very complicated and hard to nail down topic.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: Why do I do this to myself?
29:20
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so this week's topic, as I poorly described at the start of the episode half an hour ago, um, is teleological versus non-teleological thinking, with the idea that my understanding of this is that teleological thinking is the means to an end type of thinking.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm doing X to achieve Y.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to log in every day to RuneScape in order to achieve uh, I don't know if this is how RuneScape works, but in order to like collect all the battle pass shit.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
29:51
SPEAKER_03: It is not, which is one of the reasons why I like it.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: But okay, so let's say it's like um No, I I get what you mean, though.
29:59
SPEAKER_03: You get what I'm saying, though.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: Um versus non-teleological, which is the more of the journey, not the destination thinking.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: The experience is what it is, and the the value comes from the experience itself and not a specific goal.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: So the example would be um instead of I'm gonna read 25 books this year as a goal, it would be I enjoy reading and I read 25 books at the end of the year because of that.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: So it's like just a different way of thinking about it.
30:28
SPEAKER_03: It's sort of like I'm doing this for like some sort of reason versus like I'm doing this for the sake of doing it.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: Correct, exactly.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: So I kind of want to talk about our relationships with gaming and our approaches to gaming and leisure.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: Um kind of on whether or not we tend to lean towards teleological or non-teleological, um how game developers can encourage those kinds of approaches and whether or not the player or the developer is more instrumental in whether a game is teleological or non-teleological.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: So um something that I thought of when I was thinking about this in the three of us and how we play, I was thinking about how for me, if I feel pressure to achieve a goal, um, it will make me not want to do it.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: And so I much prefer non-teleological in that I'm just gonna play it to play it.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: But there are games like when I try to achieve the goal, it actually ruins the experience for me.
31:34
SPEAKER_00: Like in Dishonored, I decided I was gonna get the that achievement where you never use violence and I kept having to reload because things were going wrong to the point that I couldn't make any progress in the game um without having to try it over and over again, and it actually made it absolutely no fun.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: And so I had to give up on that goal in order to actually enjoy the game.
31:59
SPEAKER_00: So is there can you guys think of situations like that where the goal like messed up the game for you or the goal was what made the game fun?
32:11
SPEAKER_00: Does that if that make sense?
32:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
32:14
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
32:17
SPEAKER_03: Um, so like in terms of like goal is what makes the game fun.
32:21
SPEAKER_03: And okay, so uh first some general thoughts I'm having on this, which is I think a lot of the times I do tend to be like goal-oriented.
32:29
SPEAKER_03: I've definitely talked on the podcast before about like achievements are important for me when it comes to games and achievement design and like games giving me things to work towards.
32:42
SPEAKER_03: Because I think I just have trouble being like self-motivated to like I don't know how best to put it, not like self-motivated to play a game, but like self-motivated in finding things to do if it's not obvious.
32:57
SPEAKER_03: It's why like I often now feel like I have trouble playing Minecraft, because I'm like, I have sort of over my life, right, like what's the point?
33:07
SPEAKER_03: Sort of over my life I've achieved the things that I've wanted to do in this game, and so there's no like personal goal to work towards.
33:15
SPEAKER_03: Whereas, like, if I look at a game where like Runescape, which is very much supposed to be like it's designed to be a more like sandboxy MMO, like we've sort of designed a whole world and it's full of things to do, and it's up to you to decide like what you want to do.
33:29
SPEAKER_03: They still have like very specific lists of like, hey, here's they call them the achievement diaries.
33:36
SPEAKER_03: Like, here is like a list of things to do.
33:38
SPEAKER_03: Or like, here are the boss achievements, the combat achievements, and like here are things to do when fighting the bosses.
33:45
SPEAKER_03: And that's kind of like what's been keeping me motivated to play this game is to go, like, oh, I'm gonna need a farming level of like 85 in order to complete all of the achievement diaries.
33:58
SPEAKER_03: So I better like start working on my farming level, because I know it's gonna take me a while.
34:04
SPEAKER_03: Or I set a personal goal for myself, like around when I started, I was like, oh, I want all the skilling outfits, which give you like minor experience bonuses, but usually require you to like play a mini-game for like a couple hours in order to like unlock them.
34:19
SPEAKER_03: So there's a little like give and take there, I think.
34:22
SPEAKER_03: For like I definitely like having achievements, but then I look at a game like Elden Ring, which I've played through like five or six times, and once I sort of got the groove of that game, I was able to say, like, oh, I have a lot more freedom in how I play this, but I'm still gonna like set a goal for myself and keep it.
34:44
SPEAKER_03: So like I want to explore the world in Elden Ring, but I want to do it at level one.
34:48
SPEAKER_03: And so I think there's a little bit of the like there's a little bit of the non-teleological thinking, because I'm like, oh, I want to play this game in a way that I think is gonna be enjoyable.
35:02
SPEAKER_03: And the way that is gonna be enjoyable is like challenging myself more, especially because I've played this game a lot.
35:08
SPEAKER_03: So like clearly I'm playing this game because I enjoy it, and the way that I'm gonna like express that is through like setting a very specific goal for myself, which is like not leveling my character, and then being and then sort of playing through the puzzle that's there.
35:24
SPEAKER_03: But I don't know, maybe I'm muddying the water on the difference between these two.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: No, I think that's I that makes a lot of sense to me.
35:31
SPEAKER_00: I think it comes, I think, a lot down to um what's motivating, and for you, having the game give you goals is very motivating.
35:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, otherwise I have to set my own goals.
35:46
SPEAKER_03: Which again ends up being very silly, like, you know, beat the game with no leveling up, or for something or like RuneScape, it's like, okay, I'm gonna gather all of these outfits because uh it's like a thing to do and it's a goal to set for myself.
36:01
SPEAKER_03: Like if I don't have something very clear that I'm working towards, I will just be like, I don't know what I'm doing right now, and I don't know why I'm doing it.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: Right.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: Dempsey, I feel like this is such a perfect like segue for you because you literally said earlier, you're playing games the way the hard games the way you like to, which is in the most inconvenient way possible.
36:23
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and so for me, but I think I think I might approach games almost fully non-teleological.
36:35
SPEAKER_01: Like the only thing I am ever after is a vibe, and the only thing that constitute a good game or a bad game for me is how well it gets me on board with its vibe.
36:47
SPEAKER_01: And so like that's kind of the only thing I'm looking for.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, like even so like let's take Claire Obscura Expedition 33, where I'm playing with really with really defenseless characters that do massive amounts of damage.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: But that's the story and vibe that I like.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: Like I like really leaning into the parry system.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: I like this idea where like if I'm gonna do it, it has to be perfect.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: And I like uh this like immense danger, but also immense power.
37:14
SPEAKER_01: And like to me, like that's the like those are the mechanical support for like the vibe that that that that's happening.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: Because like in cutscenes and things like that, people will die after one hit.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: And so keeping that reality somehow seems like I'm playing in the world.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: But um But so I was thinking like uh some games without a purpose I will struggle with because the tools they have given me to buy into their vibe are not very good.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: I think um about the photography sim that I was really upset with.
37:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh I feel like I forgot what it's called.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: Um I'm gonna look it up real quick.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's on PS5.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I know the one you're talking about.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: Lush foil.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: It's lush foil.
38:01
SPEAKER_01: And uh and like I was okay with there being no goals, right?
38:07
SPEAKER_01: But I couldn't buy into the vibe because of the friction, and like I did not want to have a difficult, inconvenient experience.
38:15
SPEAKER_01: That's not the vibe that that game gave me.
38:17
SPEAKER_01: And so, like, like the idea of like I don't know, like uh like power wash simulator, like I'm not trying to clean all of the cars.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: It's just that in order to enjoy the vibe of power wash simulators, you need things to power wash simulate.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: And so you will get through all of the all of the stages.
38:37
SPEAKER_01: But like, that's not the goal in playing that.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: Or like when I played Elden Ring, like in the way that I did, which is very weak magic build, like I didn't think that that was a more impressive or like uh like goal-oriented way to play the game.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: I just thought that that was a better vibe.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: Outer Wilds is an example of this, I think famously, where it's like it's like a it's like a deconstruction of like, what if everything is only vibes?
39:05
SPEAKER_01: Like, is are are I experien Do experiences still have meaning if regardless of what you do you actually are unable to make any difference or unable to you know have any lasting consequence?
39:19
SPEAKER_01: Uh which is kind of the central premise of Outer Wild.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: So no, I think I think the way I approach games, um, which is different than how I grew up approaching games.
39:28
SPEAKER_01: Growing up, um I like this switch happened to me like a little bit after college, but um, like I would say growing up, I was only interested in the mechanics of a game and thought that any rapping was like superfluous.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: Like uh like I would I just watched the indie direct, right?
39:47
SPEAKER_01: And there's a character that throws their head because their head acts as like a power source.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: Elect head, I think it is.
39:53
SPEAKER_01: And so it's a robot and it's a it's a platformer, and you get to throw your head, and uh and the head acts as a power source.
40:00
SPEAKER_01: And when I was like when I was playing games to kind of finish them or be good at them, I would have asked, like, what's the point of making it his head?
40:08
SPEAKER_01: Like it could just be an object, just pixels on the screen.
40:11
SPEAKER_01: Like it could just be whatever, it doesn't have to be his head, doesn't add anything because mechanically you can have that same thing and it doesn't change anything.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: And now I can now I approach games completely different.
40:22
SPEAKER_01: Like I think, I think the narrative wrapping, like, that's that's the most like that's the vibe that you're setting.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: Like the fact that it's his head and not his arm, that's like a different vibe and story that's happening.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: I think it's it's much funner and more ridiculous, and like whatever kind of ways you want to describe it.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: But and so, and this is a a part of like I don't think I can uh subtract non-teleological experiences from video games.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the reasons why like games that charge you for cosmetics kind of stress me out because I think that aesthetic exploration is a part of the game.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: And so even though like you can shoot people and you know be in tournaments just as well without having to buy a skin, like exploring the skins is the game.
41:14
SPEAKER_01: Like that is a you know, that's a part of the game for me.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: And so I don't think cosmetic, like for me, like I think a lot of people feel like cosmetic uh microtransactions are not that big of a deal.
41:26
SPEAKER_01: But for me, they very much stress me out because that's the reason I play the game is for the aesthetics.
41:32
SPEAKER_01: And so anyway, so so yeah, I think I think I'm I'm really on the side of like Claire Obscura is difficult and there is a goal, but the reason I'm playing it is because of the vibe of the story, of how the mechanics uh interact with what it's saying aesthetically and things like that.
41:49
SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, I don't know.
41:50
SPEAKER_01: I I I guess I don't I don't really approach games with a like a necessarily a goal.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: I I really try to let myself be drug along through what the vision is.
41:58
SPEAKER_00: Right.
41:58
SPEAKER_00: So you guys have both kind of landed exactly where I sort of in my brain kind of thought you would land.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: Um good.
42:06
SPEAKER_03: We're predictable.
42:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, uh I would hope I would know you a little bit after all this time.
42:11
SPEAKER_03: Um it also just not to like go off on full tangent, but it does very much amuse me when you ask us a question like this, and Dempsey and I essentially give like completely opposite answers.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: Oh that's what makes us such a great trio.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: It is a little bit often right in the middle.
42:30
SPEAKER_03: It's good.
42:31
SPEAKER_03: All this tells me is the fact that if it was just me and Dempsey doing this podcast, it wouldn't work.
42:36
SPEAKER_03: Like Katie needs to be here because otherwise, like, yeah, I wouldn't.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: Yay!
42:42
SPEAKER_03: You are important, Katie.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: Um so um following up on that, do you guys ever experience demand avoidance in video games?
42:54
SPEAKER_00: Like, I I I have severe demand avoidance.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: Like, if I'm like, oh, I really need to clean my kitchen, I will not do it.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: I will sit and like scroll on my phone and think about how much I need to clean my kitchen for way longer than it would have taken me to clean my kitchen.
43:13
SPEAKER_00: And what I've started doing, so what brought this all about was you know how some people have hot girl summer?
43:17
SPEAKER_00: I've been having like growth girl summer and like recognizing that like the more that I try to push myself to do something I feel like I should do, um, the less likely I am to do it.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: Whereas if I just let myself be where I'm at, and when the mood strikes, when I'm ready, I will go and do the thing that I know I need to do, right?
43:39
SPEAKER_00: And I've been so much more productive since I've been allowing myself to have this approach.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: Um but it also like this kind of like, oh, I should, I should, leading to I can't, I can't, is across kind of all areas of my life, including gaming, to the point where I'm like, oh, I should be playing this game or that game because you know, I bought it and I have it, and it's a good game, and they've all played it, and I should play it.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, to the point that I wouldn't play anything.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: And so for me, going from this, I was having this kind of uh teleological thinking about gaming as a hobby across the board of I should play this game so that I can say that I've played it, or so that I can I can have finished it and reached that goal.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: And it made it so I didn't want to play anything.
44:32
SPEAKER_00: Um but since I've been shifting to a more vibes-based Dempsey um approach, I find myself playing more games and enjoying them more and making more progress than I would have expected.
44:44
SPEAKER_00: So I wonder, do you guys ever run into that where like pressure makes you not want to play, or does that like how does that impact your approach to your hobbies?
44:56
SPEAKER_01: I think I have the opposite of demand avoidance, where I have no interest in agency, and so I would prefer someone to just tell me what to do.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: I think it's I think is maybe the way that I approach or I want to approach a lot of my life.
45:11
SPEAKER_01: And so um, like in-game, I have no demand avoidance for it's like if the developer tells me to do something, I'm gonna be a good boy and do what the developer tells me to do.
45:19
SPEAKER_01: Because that's why I'm there in the first place.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: So in-game, and then I guess out of game as gaming as a hobby, I don't really know.
45:30
SPEAKER_01: I would say that uh when I am stuck between games, it's because I can't figure out what feels right to play.
45:36
SPEAKER_01: Like probably after I get down with Claire Obscura, I'll probably play like some like hour, like hour-long indie experiences and probably try a triple-A game that I get bored of really quick.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: And like there'll be like a hole in my heart after I get done with Claire Obscura.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: But um, but but I I don't feel like a pressure to like do anything specific or have a specific approach to games.
45:59
SPEAKER_00: So well adjusted.
46:01
SPEAKER_01: Well, I well, I just think I'm not that goal-oriented.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: Like I think I think that like uh and so like not being that goal-oriented, or like my internal goals anyways, um, leads to other things like getting like a month and a half behind in podcast editing.
46:17
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm like, well, I don't know.
46:19
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, we'll just keep recording.
46:20
SPEAKER_00: They'll eventually get published.
46:22
SPEAKER_00: It'll be okay.
46:23
SPEAKER_01: We'll just keep recording and then there'll be times where we can't meet for six weeks and then it'll it'll all you know, equal out in the in the end.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: So like I I yeah, I I do think that like um yeah, that's like your experience is is really, I guess, very, very, very different from mine.
46:41
SPEAKER_03: I would say I okay.
46:42
SPEAKER_03: So my only problem with this as like a mentality is it sort of works for like games where you're like, oh, like when I feel inspired to like go back and replay like the beginner's guide, like I'm going to.
46:58
SPEAKER_03: Um the problem I often find myself though is like I I play a lot of Warhammer.
47:08
SPEAKER_03: It involves like painting and being creative.
47:12
SPEAKER_03: And the the sort of sad reality is that the inspiration to do that is far between and fleeting.
47:24
SPEAKER_03: So every like once in a while, and we're talking in terms of like months, I'll be like, I should sit down and like paint a model when I have like dozens on my shelf.
47:41
SPEAKER_03: Um and I forget it was this was like advice from John Green relaying like advice from Stephen King or something.
47:51
SPEAKER_03: But like the act of writing usually involves well, okay, so the act of writing involves sitting down to write.
48:01
SPEAKER_03: And if you wait for the inspiration to come with you, you will never write a book.
48:06
SPEAKER_03: Um this is the unfortunate reality of like creative arts that you do just kind of have to be disciplined about it, and like if you want to be a writer, you have to like sit down and write.
48:18
SPEAKER_03: Um even if it's not good, or if like you don't write a lot, like the actual process of doing so is important.
48:26
SPEAKER_03: Um and I and this is I definitely don't apply this to like myself in like video games, because it's not like that important to my life.
48:34
SPEAKER_03: But like if I wanted to be a better gamer, I would have to like force myself to like sit down and game even when like I don't feel like doing it.
48:45
SPEAKER_00: Um right, and to what end, right?
48:48
SPEAKER_03: Well, and it's it's a little to what end, but like if I was okay, so like let's look at my job.
48:54
SPEAKER_03: Right, like I'm a teacher, I get PTO.
48:57
SPEAKER_03: There are really days where like I don't feel like teaching.
49:03
SPEAKER_03: And like I have sick days and I have personal days.
49:09
SPEAKER_03: Like I fully have the ability to just like on a sort of vibe be like, I don't feel like teaching today.
49:15
SPEAKER_03: Um but also I realize that this is like what I do, and like if I just start like skipping days, like whenever I just don't have the vibe, I'm gonna run out of sick days before the end of the school year.
49:31
SPEAKER_03: And then like when I'm actually sick, I'm now like losing money.
49:35
SPEAKER_03: So it's very funny.
49:38
SPEAKER_01: I thought you were gonna say, like, if I don't practice, I'm not gonna be a good teacher, or like, where's the meaning from this if I don't commit to it?
49:45
SPEAKER_01: But it's just a logistical argument of running out of school.
49:48
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so which is not where I thought you were going.
49:51
SPEAKER_03: There is like a okay, so there's a logistical argument here, but sure, like even if we look at it in terms of like I need to like go in and like be a teacher every day, and it's very easy to like passively do that, um, where you're just like, oh, I'm gonna like go in and like do my job.
50:05
SPEAKER_03: But if I want to be a better teacher, I literally need to like sit down and put effort into being a better teacher.
50:12
SPEAKER_03: Uh so it can't always just be like vibe spaced, and this is especially true for teaching, where you can't just like walk into a classroom every day and just like vibe your way through a lesson plan.
50:25
SPEAKER_03: That shit's gotta be like planned out like weeks in advance, at least an outline, and then you have to have like a day-by-day also plan.
50:33
SPEAKER_03: Like you can't just vibe your way through everything.
50:36
SPEAKER_00: No.
50:37
SPEAKER_00: I think what I've kind of found with this is because I completely agree, like, there are things that you just have to do, right?
50:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
50:44
SPEAKER_00: But what I'm finding is the less that welcome to Katie's Therapy Podcast.
50:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, the less that I try to force myself to do things when it's not like when it's not vibing, um, the more I'm suddenly able to do it.
51:05
SPEAKER_03: So Okay, I was one more thing I wanted to say, which is also I I agree to the extent that it applies to me for like video games.
51:15
SPEAKER_03: Like, sure, like I should enjoy video games for like enjoying video games.
51:19
SPEAKER_03: But I also just can't I can't like wait till the vibe is right to do my dishes.
51:24
SPEAKER_03: Because we'll we will we 100% we will run out of dishes before the vibe is right to do the dishes.
51:33
SPEAKER_03: Like the we will run out of clean laundry before the vibe is right to do laundry and fold it.
51:40
SPEAKER_03: So like sometimes you just have to be like, damn, I gotta do the dishes.
51:47
SPEAKER_03: Even though like I really don't want to.
51:50
SPEAKER_03: Now I tend to be conflict avoidant, so like I will do the dishes because if I don't, Rachel's gonna come home and yell at me that I haven't done the dishes.
52:00
SPEAKER_03: And so, like, that's probab I mean that's you know a mentality.
52:04
SPEAKER_03: But I didn't clean the dishes a lot when I lived by myself because there was nobody around me to yell at me to do the dishes.
52:10
SPEAKER_00: There's something to be said for accountability, true.
52:14
SPEAKER_03: So but like now, I can't just like wait till the vibe is right to do the dishes because they will never happen.
52:22
SPEAKER_03: And the the trash needs to go out and the dishes need to be done, and like the house needs to be vacuumed, and the vibe will never be right to do those things.
52:31
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
52:32
SPEAKER_00: So and what I found is the less the less that I've pushed the more and I've like developed this trust in myself.
52:39
SPEAKER_00: Like I don't have to do it right this minute.
52:43
SPEAKER_00: I can have my coffee first because I know that I will do it, and then I do do it, and then that trust builds.
52:49
SPEAKER_00: And so See, I think for me Does that make sense?
52:52
SPEAKER_03: And see, like, I get where you're coming from, but for me, that first step is not like because I don't have anxiety.
52:59
SPEAKER_03: Like Rachel has anxiety.
53:01
SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm no anxiety person.
53:03
SPEAKER_03: So, like, my first step is always it.
53:06
SPEAKER_03: I need a list.
53:07
SPEAKER_03: Like, I I need to physically like sit down and make a list for myself, which again is the teleological thinking.
53:15
SPEAKER_03: I need a set of objectives that I can go and check off to be like, okay, I have all of these things I need to do around the house.
53:23
SPEAKER_03: I have done the dishes, check mark.
53:26
SPEAKER_03: I'm a good boy, I have I've cleaned the bathroom, check mark.
53:30
SPEAKER_03: I'm a I'm a good noodle.
53:33
SPEAKER_03: I took the dogs out for a walk, check mark.
53:35
SPEAKER_03: Like, and I I need to physically see that.
53:39
SPEAKER_00: That is so funny.
53:40
SPEAKER_00: See, I made a giant list and I itemized it super small.
53:44
SPEAKER_00: I was like, for the kitchen.
53:46
SPEAKER_00: I had like kitchen, and then I was like, empty the dishwasher, fill the dishwasher, hand wash, wipe down the stove, wipe it down the island.
53:54
SPEAKER_03: That you looked at this whole list of stuff you had and it just stressed you out, and therefore you did not do anything on the list.
54:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so but then I knew the list was there, and so then I would be like, Oh, I could empty the dishwasher, and I did that while the coffee was brewing.
54:08
SPEAKER_00: And then I was later, I was like, Oh, I have gotten, you know, this meat out.
54:12
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna cook it real quick.
54:14
SPEAKER_00: I did that.
54:14
SPEAKER_00: Then I was like, you know, so I get it all done.
54:16
SPEAKER_00: It's just like pop, pop, pop, pop, pop here and there.
54:21
SPEAKER_00: Brains are so fascinating.
54:24
SPEAKER_01: So what what I have to do to do housework and things like that is I have to work to romanticize it.
54:30
SPEAKER_01: You have to pretend to be a trad wife or uh absolutely, that is helpful.
54:37
SPEAKER_01: Um I think I was born to be a trad wife.
54:41
SPEAKER_00: But then you wouldn't have to have any autonomy, so that'd be perfect.
54:44
SPEAKER_01: I know.
54:45
SPEAKER_01: I it would be absolutely fantastic.
54:47
SPEAKER_01: But like the idea of like so like there are some activities where I so I'm a podcast person, right?
54:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:58
SPEAKER_01: Some activities we are podcasters.
55:00
SPEAKER_01: I also listen to a lot of podcasts.
55:02
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm almost always stimulating my brain with podcasts in some way.
55:06
SPEAKER_01: And but there are certain activities that I am like, I don't want to do this, and I very rarely am going to want to want to do this, and no one's telling me to do it.
55:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm not making anyone else happy to do this.
55:18
SPEAKER_01: So what I am going to do, so that's like all of my motivational things gone.
55:22
SPEAKER_01: So then what I have to do is I have to make it a vibe.
55:25
SPEAKER_01: And so, like, sometimes I will be like, while I am doing this, I am not allowed to listen to a podcast or audiobook, and I am only gonna listen to instrumental music.
55:34
SPEAKER_01: So then, like, that becomes like the score to this thing that I'm doing, and I really like soak in the music.
55:41
SPEAKER_01: And like that is what I'm doing while I'm doing this activity.
55:44
SPEAKER_01: So, like exercise, so like running, I go on like half an hour runs, and I am not allowed to listen to podcasts during that time because if I do, it's not gonna be like the romantic vibe of like letting your brain go and like having no thoughts and kind of like trying to get to runners high, which you can't really do in 30 minutes, but I'm not that fit, so I can kind of almost get there.
56:06
SPEAKER_01: So, like, so like for me, I have to build like an aesthetic uh world in order to do things that I don't uh that I I don't naturally enjoy.
56:16
SPEAKER_01: I if I'm told to do that, it's a lot less that way, but like without the intrinsic motive, like I know like okay, we're gonna do dishes, and while I'm doing dishes, we're gonna listen to a vinyl record, and then I'm gonna be the type of person who puts a vinyl on while I do dishes, and that's the vibe.
56:31
SPEAKER_01: Or uh yeah, or or things like that.
56:34
SPEAKER_01: It's like the the aesthetic experience is very important.
56:38
SPEAKER_01: It it becomes increasingly important the less inclined I am to do something.
56:44
SPEAKER_01: And that's the way that I get the most committed to things as well, because then I can ritualize them well.
56:50
SPEAKER_01: Um whereas whereas otherwise it's it's it's difficult for me to ritualize things.
56:56
SPEAKER_01: And so some things don't require that um building up because they feel like intention like inherently meaningful, like practicing filmmaking as my job, and also like I go when I do other projects, and like even when I don't feel like I I want to do it, I still do it.
57:11
SPEAKER_01: And that feels very easy to me because that's the kind of person I want to be.
57:15
SPEAKER_01: That's the vibe, I want to make this thing that's good and be the type of person that can talk about it.
57:19
SPEAKER_01: Right.
57:20
SPEAKER_03: What do you listen to when you uh do the dishes?
57:25
SPEAKER_01: Mostly video games.
57:26
SPEAKER_03: So like have you ever like turned on a game and been like, damn, I should go do the dish?
57:32
SPEAKER_02: Paploff bad.
57:33
SPEAKER_02: Have you ever like pathlocked yourself into like that's a great problem to have?
57:40
SPEAKER_03: The next time he boots up Outer Wilds, he's gonna be like, damn, I really need to do my launcher.
57:45
SPEAKER_01: I haven't I haven't pulled my clothes.
57:47
SPEAKER_01: I do have I do have a very beautiful experience where now when I play a game, I will get flashbacks to times when I was listening to that soundtrack out in the rest of my life.
58:00
SPEAKER_01: Like the opposite of like for example, I so Chicory A Colorful Tale is a is a soundtrack that I like to listen to when I run.
58:08
SPEAKER_01: And so uh when I see footage or when I play that game now, I think about um I think about running.
58:13
SPEAKER_01: And so it's I guess it's happened the opposite way.
58:15
SPEAKER_00: But that's I have a some audiobooks I listened to as a child that I listened to while I played um Super Mario World.
58:23
SPEAKER_00: And whenever I hear that story, I'm like, oh yeah, I remember that level.
58:29
SPEAKER_00: Like it connects it.
58:31
SPEAKER_00: What's funny to me, listening to this conversation we're having, um we all three of us kind of approach like activities outside of gaming the exact same way that we approach gaming.
58:46
SPEAKER_00: Who would have guessed?
58:47
SPEAKER_00: But I that's why I thought this was kind of an interesting conversation, just because I do feel like it gets all kind of bushy-gushy intertwined.
58:57
SPEAKER_02: And it's an interesting thing to understand.
58:59
SPEAKER_00: Bushy Gushy intertwined.
59:01
SPEAKER_00: And it's an interesting thing to understand about one's self.
59:05
SPEAKER_00: So um I think I think that's probably a podcast.
59:11
SPEAKER_03: Um It might be.
59:13
SPEAKER_00: I think it is.
59:15
SPEAKER_00: So um thank you so much for joining us.
59:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, this has been Overthinking Games, uh podcast what video games can teach us.
59:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, and my question for you, we'd love to hear from you uh in our email, um, which you can find in the show notes, is what is your approach to gaming?
59:34
SPEAKER_00: And do you find that that approach is reflected in other areas of your life?
59:38
SPEAKER_00: Um or are you uh or do you you know feel differently?
59:43
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
59:44
SPEAKER_00: My brain just went off.
59:45
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's uh I think that's it.
59:49
SPEAKER_03: What?
59:49
SPEAKER_03: I just you know, we're we're hitting your bedtime here, so everything's shutting down.
59:54
SPEAKER_00: Shut up.
59:55
SPEAKER_00: No, my brain just went scrambled.
59:57
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why.
59:57
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so send us an email, it's in the show notes.
1:00:00
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening and we will catch you next time.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_01: And today was August 7th.
1:00:04
SPEAKER_00: August 7th.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_00: And this will probably get published at Christmas.
1:00:09
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we'll see.
1:00:11
SPEAKER_00: Bye.
1:00:12
SPEAKER_00: Bye.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_01: Bye.