Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #109: Who is the Holy Spirit?

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#109: Who is the Holy Spirit? · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

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  [music]
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  SPEAKER_01: Hey friends, welcome to the Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm Tim Wright, along with John D. Burgess.
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  SPEAKER_01: You're two favorite bald headed commentators of all.
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  SPEAKER_01: And just so people know this,
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  SPEAKER_01: our favorite story is from the Old Testament when Elijah is teased by some boys.
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  SPEAKER_01: He says, hey, they call him a baldy.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so he curses them and some bears come and eat them.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of one of our favorite stories.
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  SPEAKER_01: So don't don't say anything.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Get through the day.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now, some of you are going to be obsessed with that story for the rest of the day.
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  SPEAKER_00: You're welcome.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: But remember, these are stories.
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  SPEAKER_01: So today we are continuing our series, Christianity 101.
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  SPEAKER_01: Terry is not with us, of course.
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  SPEAKER_01: She's right now in the midst of rehearsals for a big play here in Phoenix, Les Miserables.
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  SPEAKER_01: We have talked about Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_01: We have talked about God.
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  SPEAKER_01: So God, sort of God the Creator, God the Father, Jesus the Redeemer, Jesus the Son.
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  SPEAKER_01: But the third part of the Trinity,
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  SPEAKER_01: or God's third expression of God's self,
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  SPEAKER_01: or lack of a better word, is God the Holy Spirit, God the Sustainer.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's fairly easy,
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  SPEAKER_01: and that's a relative word, to talk about God as creator, God as parent, as father.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's fairly tangible to talk about Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_01: the life of Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_01: what he did for us, the love that he showed through his death and resurrection.
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  SPEAKER_01: But when you get to the Holy Spirit, man,
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  SPEAKER_01: it is hard to put that Holy Spirit into language that is easy for us to understand.
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  SPEAKER_01: And of course,
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  SPEAKER_01: there are so, so many Understandings of the Holy Spirit out there in Christianity.
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  SPEAKER_01: Some are not quite as helpful as others.
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  SPEAKER_01: Some that can be very destructive.
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  SPEAKER_01: Just a quick example,
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  SPEAKER_01: people who believe they've got a special pipeline to the Holy Spirit,
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  SPEAKER_01: and they'll come up to you and say, I've had a word from the Holy Spirit for you.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that word doesn't seem all that pleasant,
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  SPEAKER_01: or even God-like, but who are you to argue with the Holy Spirit, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: That whole Holy Spirit thing can really be manipulative.
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  SPEAKER_01: So what we want to do today is try to,
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  SPEAKER_01: using some scripture,
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  SPEAKER_01: of course,
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  SPEAKER_01: try to give what I hope will be
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  SPEAKER_01: satisfying and helpful and inspiring understanding
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  SPEAKER_01: of who the Holy Spirit is and how the Holy Spirit works in our lives.
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  SPEAKER_01: No small task.
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  SPEAKER_01: As theologians have been working on this for the last 2,000 years,
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  SPEAKER_01: but your two bald-headed friends are going to do it for you in 27 minutes.
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  SPEAKER_00: Not shying away from the big jobs, that's us.
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  SPEAKER_00: Not shying away at all.
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  SPEAKER_01: See, we haven't wasted our energy with hair, so we've got plenty of energy.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'll dive into all things theological.
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  SPEAKER_01: So, John,
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  SPEAKER_01: let me just give you just a couple Thoughts of the Holy Spirit,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I don't want to, I just want to be careful of this.
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  SPEAKER_01: I want to always be careful of disparaging other theological understandings
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  SPEAKER_01: the Holy Spirit, because nobody can have a market on the Holy Spirit.
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  SPEAKER_01: The Holy Spirit is beyond us.
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  SPEAKER_01: The Holy Spirit is God.
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  SPEAKER_01: But the Holy Spirit does want to be understood,
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  SPEAKER_01: at least in some way, shape,
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  SPEAKER_01: or form,
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  SPEAKER_01: so that we can have a relationship with the Holy Spirit,
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  SPEAKER_01: just as we have a relationship with God The Father,
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  SPEAKER_01: God the Creator, with God, with Jesus the Son, Jesus the Sustainer.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's all God and expressed in three different persons,
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  SPEAKER_01: three different ways of relating to the world,
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  SPEAKER_01: however you want to talk about the Trinity.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think if most of us would talk about the Holy Spirit,
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  SPEAKER_01: we would probably be shaped by Pentecostal theology.
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  SPEAKER_01: Our Pentecostal friends,
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  SPEAKER_01: the Assembly of God movement was birthed back,
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  SPEAKER_01: I want to say like the 1920s,
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  SPEAKER_01: somewhere in there,
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  SPEAKER_01: a revival movement that took place where people were experiencing works of
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  SPEAKER_01: the Holy Spirit that hadn't been seen really since the times of the Bible,
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  SPEAKER_01: healing, speaking in tongues.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so a whole denomination,
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  SPEAKER_01: in fact, one of the fastest growing denominations in the whole world.
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  SPEAKER_01: Is built on a particular understanding of the Holy Spirit.
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  SPEAKER_01: And those of us who are mainline churches may understand a little bit of this
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  SPEAKER_01: if you were involved in the charismatic movement at all,
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  SPEAKER_01: as I was back in the 70s and 80s,
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  SPEAKER_01: where even Lutherans and Methodists
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  SPEAKER_01: and Episcopalians were having Pentecostal-type experiences with the Holy Spirit.
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  SPEAKER_01: And yet we really tried to understand that experience through the lens of our theologies.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's not that Jesus or the Spirit can't break through our theologies,
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  SPEAKER_01: but sometimes theologies are there to help us,
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  SPEAKER_01: not to box the Spirit in the box, to protect us from going way off base.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I want to oversimplify a little bit,
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  SPEAKER_01: just so people have some context for what we want to talk about today.
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  SPEAKER_01: The whole topic of the Trinity, John, is a very confusing one, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: How do you talk about one God in three persons?
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  SPEAKER_01: And we've tried to do that a little bit on this podcast.
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  SPEAKER_01: A couple examples, and they all fall short, but just a couple examples.
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  SPEAKER_01: Water.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's all water.
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  SPEAKER_01: It can be expressed.
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  SPEAKER_01: It can be expressed as ice,
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  SPEAKER_01: it can be expressed as liquid, it can be expressed as vapor or steam.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's still water, expressed in three different ways.
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  SPEAKER_01: We can take John Burgess and we'll sort of elevate his status a bit.
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  SPEAKER_01: John Burgess is a husband.
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  SPEAKER_01: John Burgess is a father.
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  SPEAKER_01: John Burgess is a son.
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  SPEAKER_01: He's the same person,
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  SPEAKER_01: but he relates to the world differently as a husband than he relates to the world as
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  SPEAKER_01: a son than he relates to the world as a father.
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  SPEAKER_01: So Lisa has a very different relationship with John as his wife than do Grace
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  SPEAKER_01: and Faith as daughters as John with his family, his parents.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now, it all breaks down,
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  SPEAKER_01: of course,
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  SPEAKER_01: for a lot of different reasons,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it at least gives us an understanding,
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  SPEAKER_01: if nothing else,
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's far deeper than this,
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  SPEAKER_01: but nothing else, that God relates to us as one God in three different ways.
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  SPEAKER_01: God has one work in the world, and that's to give life and to redeem life.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's from the very beginning of the book of Genesis to the very end.
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  SPEAKER_01: The work of God is to do one thing, to give life and to recreate life.
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  SPEAKER_01: And God the Father creates life.
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  SPEAKER_01: God the Son redeems and reconciles life.
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  SPEAKER_01: God the Spirit sustains life.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's all the same work,
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  SPEAKER_01: but the relationship, the way that work is carried out is done a bit differently.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's one way to understand the Trinity.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it's one God, one work done kind of relating to the world in three different ways.
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  SPEAKER_01: So let me pause there,
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  SPEAKER_01: John, before we sort of tackle then what is the Holy Spirit in all of this?
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  SPEAKER_00: My big contribution to the whole episode was going to be the water thing,
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  SPEAKER_00: but
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  SPEAKER_00: you already said that.
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  SPEAKER_00: My questions are around things like when a Christian says, are you filled with the Holy Spirit?
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure what that means.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if I would.
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  SPEAKER_00: And also, like,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: in my own prayer life, I can easily be thankful to God, easily be thankful to Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_00: But when I say, hey,
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  SPEAKER_00: thank you,
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  SPEAKER_00: Holy Spirit, for what you're doing, that doesn't, that feels odd for some reason.
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  SPEAKER_01: So, I'm not sure like... Let's come back to that one at the end, if I don't get to it.
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  SPEAKER_01: So, you've raised some really good questions.
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  SPEAKER_01: What does it mean to be filled with the Spirit?
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  SPEAKER_01: What is our relationship to the Spirit?
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  SPEAKER_01: So let me start again by saying when we're talking about the triune God,
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  SPEAKER_01: we're talking about one God.
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  SPEAKER_01: And this God has one work,
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  SPEAKER_01: and that's to give life and or to redeem life, but it's always to give life.
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  SPEAKER_01: And does that in three different ways.
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  SPEAKER_01: God, the Creator, creates life.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus, the Son, redeems life.
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  SPEAKER_01: Reconciles life, and then the Holy Spirit will then sustain life.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now, in some forms of Pentecostalism,
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  SPEAKER_01: there is a belief,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I want to use this to contrast what I want to say that I think
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  SPEAKER_01: the Bible is saying about the Holy Spirit.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it will answer your question about being filled with the Spirit.
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  SPEAKER_01: In some forms of Pentecostalism, there is a sort of a two-stage system of salvation.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus saves you.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then you have a second experience of the Holy Spirit filling you.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's when you become sanctified.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's when you become filled with the Spirit.
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  SPEAKER_01: That may be when you are discovering your spiritual gifts,
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  SPEAKER_01: whether it's the gift of teaching or giving or speaking in tongues,
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  SPEAKER_01: whatever it might be.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so, to put it crudely,
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  SPEAKER_01: in some forms of Pentecostalism,
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  SPEAKER_01: there are Christians, and then there are Spirit-filled Christians.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay?
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  SPEAKER_01: There are those who have accepted Jesus as their Savior,
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  SPEAKER_01: to use that language,
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  SPEAKER_01: and then there are those who have been filled or baptized in the Spirit.
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  SPEAKER_01: Which creates what?
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  SPEAKER_01: Two classes of Christians.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Just as an example, years ago I was attending the Lutheran Bible Institute.
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  SPEAKER_01: This would have been 1976, 1977, something like that.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we were watching in the room there in the dorm a Billy Graham crusade.
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  SPEAKER_01: How sad is that?
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  SPEAKER_01: You've got people at Bible school and then for entertainment
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  SPEAKER_01: at night we're watching Billy Graham.
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  SPEAKER_01: And for those who don't know who Billy Graham is,
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  SPEAKER_01: he was the evangelist and would travel the world and His crusades were on TV and so
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  SPEAKER_01: on.
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  SPEAKER_00: He sort of started this whole arena.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: Or let's say he brought it into the modern world.
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  SPEAKER_01: There were others before him, but he brought it into the modern world.
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  SPEAKER_01: So as we're watching,
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  SPEAKER_01: we're at the part now where he gives the altar call,
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  SPEAKER_01: which he does every night,
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  SPEAKER_01: and they sing Just As I Am Without One Plea, and thousands of people come forward.
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  SPEAKER_01: And as we're watching that, one of the students says, do you think he's spirit-filled?
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  SPEAKER_01: And I looked at him and I said, look at what's happening right here.
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  SPEAKER_01: There are thousands of people coming to Jesus because of this man's sermon.
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  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean is he spirit-filled?
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  SPEAKER_01: How else would that be happening?
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  SPEAKER_01: He had a two-stage understanding of Christianity,
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  SPEAKER_01: that some people are Christians and some people are spirit-filled Christians.
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  SPEAKER_01: Every once in a while,
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  SPEAKER_01: this was back when I was kind of hanging out in the charismatic movement,
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  SPEAKER_01: sort of the Pentecostal movement in the Lutheran Church.
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  SPEAKER_01: You would hear people say, well, do you think that pastor is spirit-filled?
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  SPEAKER_01: And it just really rankled me.
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  SPEAKER_01: I thought, well, first of all, who are you to make that determination?
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  SPEAKER_01: And secondly, my thought was, how can you be a Christian and not be spirit-filled?
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  SPEAKER_01: If it's one God, you don't just get God's arm and leg.
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  SPEAKER_01: You don't just get the Father and the Son, you get the whole buffet.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I was really on a quest in the,
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  SPEAKER_01: really started in seminary and then moved on to try to figure this out.
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  SPEAKER_01: What really is the work of the Spirit?
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  SPEAKER_01: And I will give a shout out to a professor of mine,
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  SPEAKER_01: a professor in seminary, believe it or not, who had had a charismatic experience.
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  SPEAKER_01: Pentecostal, filled with the Spirit experience.
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  SPEAKER_01: Where something happened to him and he began speaking in tongues.
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  SPEAKER_01: But the way he articulated his understanding of who
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  SPEAKER_01: the Spirit is was radically different than sort of this two-tiered Christianity.
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  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about what I think the Bible is saying about the Holy Spirit.
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  SPEAKER_01: Does the Holy Spirit fill us?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: Does the Holy Spirit fill us with Jesus?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: Does the Holy Spirit give us gifts?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: Is it possible to be a Christian and not be filled with the Spirit?
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to say a big no on that.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I want to give a couple passages of Scripture to kind of help us see that.
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  SPEAKER_01: So again, first of all, let's remember, the one work of the triune God is to give life.
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  SPEAKER_01: So they're all giving life in different ways.
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  SPEAKER_01: So they all do the same thing.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus doesn't do something different than God does.
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  SPEAKER_01: God the Father doesn't do something different than the Spirit does.
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  SPEAKER_01: They just do it in different ways.
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  SPEAKER_01: They have the same work.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're giving life.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to have John read for us from John chapter 7.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus is at a big feast.
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  SPEAKER_01: On the last day of the festival,
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  SPEAKER_01: the great day,
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  SPEAKER_01: while Jesus was standing there, he cried out, let anyone who is thirsty come to me.
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  SPEAKER_00: And let the ones who believe in me drink.
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  SPEAKER_00: As the scripture has said, out of the believers heart shall flow rivers of living water.
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  SPEAKER_00: All right.
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  SPEAKER_01: So let's set the context here.
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  SPEAKER_01: He is at a festival where they are focused on the pouring out of water as a symbol of life.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus stands up in the midst of this and he says, if you believe in me, out of you.
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  SPEAKER_01: Will come these rivers of flowing life, of living water, all right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Remember what's the work Jesus is in?
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  SPEAKER_01: Giving life.
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  SPEAKER_01: And when we follow Jesus or out of the believer's heart shall be rivers
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  SPEAKER_01: of living life flowing, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: So Jesus is saying when we believe in him, Out of our hearts will flow living water.
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  SPEAKER_01: We will be filled with this living water, filling us constantly.
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  SPEAKER_01: And living water doesn't mean it's stagnant, doesn't mean it stops like a pond.
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  SPEAKER_01: It is constantly gushing in us.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is a picture of someone being filled with life.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay?
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  SPEAKER_01: Any questions?
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  SPEAKER_00: No, not yet, but I have a big one I'm working on.
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  SPEAKER_01: All right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: So let's read verse 39.
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  SPEAKER_01: 39.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now he said this about the Spirit,
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  SPEAKER_00: which believers in him were to receive,
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  SPEAKER_00: for as yet there was no Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
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  SPEAKER_01: All right.
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  SPEAKER_01: So what he's saying is that this picture of rivers of living water flowing out
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  SPEAKER_01: of us is the Holy Spirit living in us.
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  SPEAKER_01: And what Jesus is saying here is if we believe in him,
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  SPEAKER_01: the Holy Spirit lives in us and out of us through the power of
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  SPEAKER_01: the Holy Spirit is flowing living water.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus is saying in these three verses that when we believe in him,
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  SPEAKER_01: we are filled with the Holy Spirit.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's not two stages.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's not five stages.
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  SPEAKER_01: When we believe in Jesus, rivers of living water, the Holy Spirit will flow out of us.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
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  SPEAKER_01: I want to make sure you're tracking with me on that.
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  SPEAKER_00: I am.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, do I need to be worried about whether I believe enough?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, what about the thief on the cross next to Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_00: who essentially just says, can I be with you?
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  SPEAKER_01: Where in that passage would Jesus talk about the amount of faith you need to have?
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  SPEAKER_00: He just says, out of the believer's heart.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Does he qualify how much belief you have to have?
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  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't.
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  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't.
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  SPEAKER_00: Which makes me worried.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: It shouldn't make you worried.
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  SPEAKER_01: It should make you relieved.
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  SPEAKER_01: He puts no qualifier on it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: So what that means is every Christian,
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  SPEAKER_01: anybody who believes in Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_01: doesn't matter if they've been a Christian for a second or for 40,
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  SPEAKER_01: 50 years, is filled with the same spirit.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that spirit is living in us and flowing through us with life, energizing us with life.
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  SPEAKER_01: And you might say, well, what is life?
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, Galatians says the fruit of the spirit is love, joy,
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  SPEAKER_01: peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's a pretty good list of what life looks like.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's a good list.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So what if I'm the type of Christian who,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: when you told that story about Billy Graham,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: it reminded me about a job that I had applied for once at
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: a very
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: well-known Christian nonprofit.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: And in the middle of the interview,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: they said, you know, explain to us your coming to Jesus moment.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: So my question is,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: how do we,
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: knowing that I believe in Jesus,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that this section says that I am filled with the Spirit,
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: does that change how, I mean, we're recording this on a Tuesday.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Does it change how I feel about myself and the world around me on Tuesday?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I can still be mad and upset and human, even though I'm filled with the Spirit, right?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he doesn't say anything about being perfect.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we're going to get closer to, I think, the answer you're looking for here in a minute.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: I do want to just, you said something here.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta see if I can find it.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't get the job, by the way, if anyone's wondering.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think they like my answer about how my faith in Jesus came about.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was not nearly as cataclysmic.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: There's no single point of lightning strike that I could point to,
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: but I think in the way that they looked at faith,
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: that meant that they questioned my Christianity because of it, I think.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a whole, you know, maybe that's another podcast for another time.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: How are we saved?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'll write that down.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: How are we saved?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because there are people,
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: especially those, well,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: there are people who believe you have to make a decision,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: and then there are other people who believe that God makes the decision.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that salvation is not from me to God, but it's from God to me.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's talk about that.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds great.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we'll make that our next one.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm trying to find a verse.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: I usually have it right on the tip of my head, but I can't quite find it.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: That talks about...
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to leave it for now.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'll come back to it for the, how are we saved?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because it kind of fits for that too.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: So first of all,
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: what I want to say is, what Jesus says, the work of God is one work, to give life.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the Father gives life by creating life, creating life in us through Jesus.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus then reconciles us back to that life, and the Spirit then sustains and nurtures that life.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: When we believe in Jesus,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: the Spirit lives in us, doing the work of life, living waters flowing out of us.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I want to read for you a passage,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: and this is going to be a little confusing,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: but I want people to hang in there with me
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: because Paul does something really interesting here if we have the ears to hear it.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: He's going to talk about the work of God.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: And he is going to interchange Spirit, God, and Jesus.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that, at least in this passage, for him there is no difference.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Alright, so let me read it for you.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: If you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone who does not have the spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: So he called him the spirit of God first.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's the spirit of Christ.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then he said,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: but if Christ is in you,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: so before he said,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: if the spirit of God lives in you,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: if the spirit of Christ lives in you,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: now he just says that Christ lives in you, you,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: though your body is dead because of sin,
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: the spirit is life because of righteousness.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: If the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: he who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: also through his spirit who dwells in you.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so he just kind of goes back and forth.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: The spirit of God dwells in you.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Spirit of Christ dwells in you.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Christ dwells in you.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the work, what's the work of them to do?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: To give life.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so what Paul is saying here is the same as Jesus is saying here.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: When God lives in you,
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: when Jesus lives in you,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: God the Creator, God the Sustainer, God the Redeemer lives in you.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: God the Father, Jesus the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: All of them live in you and fill you with life and ongoing work.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's no two-class system.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: It is impossible to be a Christian and not be filled with the Spirit.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: It is impossible.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because God comes as God, the triune God into our lives.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now, that doesn't mean that we don't have unique experiences, right?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: There are some people who have very unique experiences of the Spirit,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: but the Spirit was always there.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: The Spirit didn't just suddenly come on them now and make them different.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: The Spirit just for whatever reason said,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: I've got this river of life flowing out of you,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm going to just do something with it today.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: But it's already flowing through you.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Always is.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Always has been.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, Tim, you were reading from where?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: This was Romans chapter 8.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Romans 8 verses 9 through 11.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Romans 8, 9 through 11.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: And can you just touch again on the part where he talks about righteousness?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: That sounded to me,
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't figure out if he was talking about the righteousness of the person in
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: which the Holy Spirit is living or somebody else's righteousness.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: If Christ is in you,
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's God's righteousness, not ours.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: So think of it this way.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: Two ways to think of it.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: The simplest definition that I can give of the Holy Spirit is this.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: The Holy Spirit is Jesus living in us.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: The Holy Spirit is Jesus living in us.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: The way that we experience Jesus is not the flesh and blood Jesus that
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: the disciples experienced.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: We experience Jesus as spirit.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: So when we,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: to use language,
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: when we receive Jesus,
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: when we accept Jesus into our lives,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't bodily come into us and climb into us.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: God enters into us by the Spirit.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And remember,
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: it was the Spirit of God hovering over the chaos in the very first verse of
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: the Bible.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Bringing life out of chaos.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's that spirit who brings the life that Jesus purchased for us
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: through his death and resurrection and purchases the wrong word in the life
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: and grace that Jesus offered us through his death and resurrection.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: The Holy Spirit makes that a reality in our lives.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: All of the promises that God has for us.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Are made tangible and real in us as the spirit lives in us.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: God, Jesus, the spirit enters us as spirit.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: That same spirit that hovered over the darkness is the spirit that lives in us
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: and is energizing us with life.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is so incredibly helpful and also brings up another 200 questions.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: So before you bring up your other 200 questions,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: let me give you another way to answer your righteousness question.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: When when Luther talks about righteousness,
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: he talks about it in terms of an alien righteousness.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: We're not talking about outer space.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: What we're saying is that in and of ourselves, there is no righteousness.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: But when Jesus through the spirit enters into us,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: that righteousness, which is not ours, it's God's is now in us.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like an alien righteousness.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Take Jesus out, there's no righteousness in me.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: Put Jesus in and the righteousness of God lives in me by the Spirit.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why he calls it an alien righteousness.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's like an invasion of God's righteousness into our lives and then makes us into
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: who we are not without the Spirit living
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: in us.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to let you follow up with some questions.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: But for those of you listening, I know we've kind of taken down a long path.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: However, it is that God welcomed you into a relationship with Jesus.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: By virtue of the fact that Jesus lives in you,
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: you are filled with the Spirit because the way that God comes to you is through
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: the Holy Spirit.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that Spirit is energizing you with life each and every day.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: And most of the time, you don't realize it.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: You're just moving throughout your day.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: But once in a while, when you stop, you see, wow, there's a little God moment there.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's a big God moment there,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: or I just felt this touch of peace, or I felt moved to help somebody.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's the Spirit of God that hovered over creation,
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: bringing something out of nothing,
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: who is bringing something out of your life every day.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: It may be quiet support when you're grieving.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: It may be great joy when you are celebrating.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: It may be a moment of God's presence in your life because God's always there anyway.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: The Holy Spirit is Jesus living in you and all of the fullness of God dwells in you
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: and there is nothing more to receive.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: You have all of God there is to have by the Holy Spirit.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we pray, God,
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: give me more of yourself, God's kind of shaking his head saying, you got it all.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: You already have it all?
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: I live in you by my spirit.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: So why don't,
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: rather than asking for more,
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: why don't you just enjoy what you have and start living it?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't need to be,
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: sometimes when we talk about this, I mean,
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: the larger we,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: meaning Christians in general,
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: you sort of get the feeling that like on a day in and day out basis,
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: I have this Holy Spirit tank.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes my tank is low because of my own Sure.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Actions or lack of actions.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's higher.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe folks in other denominations that look at this as
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: a multi-step process feed into that a little bit.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: But what I hear you saying is that there is no, like it's there.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's there.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: And our,
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to say this,
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: our feelings, our moods, our circumstances, Don't change that.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: The Spirit is filling us with life when we are as low as we could possibly be,
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: when we are hurting, when things aren't going well.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: The Spirit is there, and that's probably when we need life more than anything.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's easy to have life when things are going well.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: When do we really need life?
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: When we're walking through the valley of the shadow of death.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: The same Spirit Who energizes us with love, joy,
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: The same Spirit who fills us with the fullness of God
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: is there in the everydayness of life.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think part of what has happened over the years is we have so equated
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: the Holy Spirit with power,
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: with the miraculous,
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: With healings, with speaking in tongues, with these marvelous gifts.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, the Spirit does all that.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: But the whole point of the incarnation of Jesus is that the Spirit lives in us in
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: the midst of the everyday ordinariness of life.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you want to take it back to the creation story, we just live in the mud of life, right?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: We're these dust creatures tied to the earth, so to speak.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: And the Spirit of God that animated Adam and gave him life is the same Spirit
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: that animates us and gives us life to live ordinary life.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to have some highs,
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to have some lows,
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: but most of the time it's just going to sort of have an equilibrium about it.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: But the whole point is that we live all of these moments
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: in and with the presence of God in us.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're never alone.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'll never leave you nor forsake you.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it's just nice to remind ourselves because we don't always feel
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: the presence of God.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: We don't always feel his power.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's just nice to remind ourselves of the promise that
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: when Jesus enters our lives,
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: the fullness of God enters our lives,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: the spirit is there to nurture us and to guide us.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: And mainly just to fill us with life, whatever kind of life we need that day.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not something we have to work for.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have to pray harder for it.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have to sit and wait for something big to happen to us.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: Life is already flowing through you because the Spirit of God lives in you.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: The Spirit of God that hovered over the waters and gave life to the darkness and the void.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: The Spirit of God that filled Adam with life.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: The Spirit of God that is rivers of living water flowing out of you.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: That Spirit of God lives in you because that's how God comes to you.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the work of God is to give you life.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Life can mean hope.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: It can mean tears and the grief, whatever.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Life.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, life is life, right?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: We always want to think of life as being always good.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Life isn't always good, but it's still life.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Life has a cross to it.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Life has suffering.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: Life has celebrations.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's all of that, and the Spirit of God is with us in all of that.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the Spirit of God is in you in all of that.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a pretty good place to end.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: I have other questions, but I just think that, you know, for instance,
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's the gifts of the Spirit, and we haven't really talked about that much.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: But as you started the podcast by saying,
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: we sort of create these divisions and these upper class,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: lower class Christianity experiences in our own head,
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: and a lot of what we're talking about kind of He fights against that based upon
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: the scripture that we're reading.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: But it sure is easy to look at people that are speaking in tongues and think,
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: man, they must have an extra dose of the spirit.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, Paul says just the opposite.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Paul says the gifts that are the most valuable or the most important are the ones
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: that seem to have the least amount of prestige attached to them.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: So he's not trying to rank giftedness, but take speaking in tongues, for example.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: For a lot of people who speak in tongues,
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: it's a prayer language, or it's a language that they use to pray to God.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's nice,
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: but how about that person who has the gift of mercy and sees somebody in need
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: and feeds them and cares for them and helps them?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: In the scale of things,
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: what's making the bigger difference in terms of the impact on the world?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: Again, that's not to say anything bad with speaking tongues,
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: but that's why Paul is saying that we need all of us.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: We need all of the gifts.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: And if the work of the Spirit is to give life,
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: then the purpose of spiritual gifts is to give life.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's the whole point.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Any spiritual gifts I have, they should be used in the service of Jesus to give life to people.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: And in the midst of that, the Holy Spirit is indwelling in us.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: Period.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Period.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I happen to believe,
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: there are some people who believe that when the Spirit lives in us,
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: we have all of the gifts available to us as needed.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm comfortable with that.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I also wonder, though, if we all have unique gifts and we already have them.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Some of us have discovered them.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Some of us have not yet discovered them, but they're already there.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: And there comes a moment when you may say,
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: man,
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: I really like Serving at church, welcoming people as they come.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: I like shaking hands.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: I like smiling at people.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: And suddenly you've discovered you've got a spiritual gift of hospitality
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: that maybe has been there all along and now you've just realized,
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually pretty good at this.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: And not egotistically, but people respond to me.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'm giving people life when you've discovered a gift of the spirit
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: that was already there.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: Or you may say, you know what?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have a lot of money to give, but I sure like to give money.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now, giving money,
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: is a responsibility of all Christians,
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: but some people have a gift for it,
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: a gift of liberality that's different than the rest of us.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's all there.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think everybody has their spiritual gifts.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: They're already there.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: We maybe just don't know what they are yet.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of where I come from.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I think All Christians have all the spiritual gifts.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that, sure,
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: if I'm somewhere and a gift is needed, the Spirit could certainly help me do that.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I think there are certain things that we all do in the body of Christ
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: where we are more effective at it and gain more joy from it than other things
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: that we might be asked to do.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be different for all of us.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so if the work of the Spirit is to give life and is a spring of life flowing
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: through us,
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: then the purpose of spiritual gifts is to share life with people,
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: to share love, joy,
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: So let's end on this.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: Anytime you're loving, compassionate, gracious to people, you're given life.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: The Spirit is flowing through you to others.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe if we focus more on that,
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: how am I living out love, joy, peace,
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: patience,
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: kindness,
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control to the people around me?
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: If I can sort of see the Spirit doing that in my life,
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: in the lives of others, the Spirit is doing something in my life.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so here's what I think we'll do, John.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think next week we'll sort of look at that question, what must I do to be saved?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then in two weeks, we'll ask the question, well, what about baptism?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: How does that sound?
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because the baptism stuff,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: will tie back to what we're talking about today,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: as will the question about salvation.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: If the Spirit is involved in all of this, the Spirit will have something to say about that.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, folks, we appreciate anything else, John, before we go?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: Tim has talked a couple of times about the fruits of the Spirit.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's from Galatians 5, 22, 23.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: Love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: I will try to put those in the notes when I post this for folks.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: If they want the three references, John 7, Romans 8, and then Galatians 2.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: Was it Galatians 2?
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Galatians 5, 22.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: Galatians 5.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: John, thank you very, very much.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Tim.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, everyone, for listening.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: Hope this was helpful.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: Next time, what John needs to do to get saved so that he can get that job.