Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 418 - Communistic Tendencies W/ Sean DeGrilla

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JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 418 - Communistic Tendencies W/ Sean DeGrilla · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: What's up, everybody? Welcome into the Lone Gummin' Podcast. I'm
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: your host, Rob Clark. Along with me, co-host Joe Borelli.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: And today we have a special returning guest. Not only
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: can you hear him, you can see him this time.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: It's Sean DeGrillo. He's back. He He wrote the book
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Malcontent many moons ago, came on the show and talked
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: about that. And tonight, well, I asked him to come
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: on because I noticed some activity going on from the
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Degrilla Camp and a new website and a new book
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: possibly coming. Welcome, Sean, into the show. How are you doing, sir?
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: I'm well. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: Yes, nice to meet you, sir.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: You as well.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: I saw some things that piqued my curiosity that you
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: have been posting about. So I thought it would be
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: a good idea to have you on here before anybody
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: else got you. And we like fresh stuff here.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: You're getting it.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Sean, like I said, welcome back, man. Thank you.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Just let everybody know a little bit about yourself and
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: what got you interested in the case and what you're
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: working on, what you have worked on, that kind of thing.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: Sure. I grew up in Dallas. So that's how I
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: caught the bug. Loved it. When I was an adult,
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: moved to Orlando area and was in law enforcement for
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: 17 years. And that's how I got involved with the
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: computer voice stress analysis and criminal behavior and profiling. So
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: I wrote a book about the first posthumous computer voice
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: stress analysis of Lee Harvey Oswald. And that was just
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: one part of it. I really wanted to get into
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: what did the man believe? What did he leave behind?
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Because that's how you're going to understand somebody. And so
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: I spent six years researching communistic tendencies, the writings and
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: beliefs of Lee Harvey Oswald, which will be out next month.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Gotcha. Yeah, because the first book, Malcontent, you kind of
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: went through and identified Oswald's guilt by the way he acted,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: by what he said, what he did. This kind of thing.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: And like you said, the computer voice stress analysis, it's
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: kind of like the old George O'Toole book, right? What
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: was it called?
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: The Assassination Tapes.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the Assassination Tapes, but updated with better technology, I guess.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Correct. He used the Psychological Stress Evaluator, which is the
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: precursor to the CVSA.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Gotcha.
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: Gotcha.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Obviously, that needs to be done with... you know, updated
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: technology and you did it.
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: So kudos.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: And that book's going to be rewritten. So, um, the
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: science of deception, what the computer voice stress analysis tells
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: us about Lee Harvey Oswald is another upcoming book. And
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: the appendices will be the CBSA on Marina Oswald, Buell Frazier, um,
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: and others, Ruth Payne.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: So now I'm interested.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: There you go. I thought that would pique your attention. Yep.
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: Mr.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: Frazier. Ruth Payne, Marina, yeah, I'm in.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: And others, right. So that's several years out, but that
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: is in the works right now.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Right, so you've got a new website. It is theoswaldarchive.com.
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: Correct.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Where folks can go check out. We'll link it up
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: in the description as well, so make it real easy
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: for everybody to find it.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: And the book, Communistic Tendencies, will be out sometime in
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: the month of November.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: Actually, it should be October. It's at the publisher right now.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: They're working through a few formatting issues.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Gotcha, gotcha. So be on the lookout for that, folks,
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: when it's here. Can they pre-order it anywhere now or no?
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: Not now, no.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Just wanted to check, just wanted to check. All right,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: so what got my attention with some of your posts
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: is this right here in the bottom corner. a piece of, well,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: this is a recreation of a piece of Oswald's address
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: book that somebody who we're familiar with, I believe, is
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: it Mike Howard from the Secret Service? Okay, who was
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: holed up with Marina and the Secret Service and James
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Herbert Martin and Marguerite and Robert and all them at
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: Six Flags, alleges, or has alleged, that there was a
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: page in the address book that said this words, uh,
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: basically a kill list, people to kill governor Connolly. And
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: then there's an image of like a bloody sword, uh,
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: general Walker agent hostie. I will kill the son of
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: a bitch.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: Uh, and the vice president, it brings it all into
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: one page. Pretty convenient.
• 5:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Now, if this, it actually existed, you would think this
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: would be, uh, article of evidence.
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: Number one, Commission exhibit number one.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: But the reality of the situation is a little different.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: If you could please explain and go into a little
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: bit more about this address book.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Sure. So the address book was Oswald's 1960s equivalent of
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: a cell phone. It had everyone he contacted, addresses, phone numbers, locations.
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: It had it all.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: He never went anywhere without it. Mike Howard said that
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: on November 24th, he recovered it from Ruth Payne's house. Now,
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: he told me it was in the kitchen, but he
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: also told me it was in a closet on the 24th.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: The problem with that is, on the 24th, that address
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: book was already in Captain Fritz's office because on the 22nd,
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: two days earlier, there was a search warrant executed at
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: 1026 North Beckley at around 5 p.m. assistant DA Bill
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Alexander found that address book on the top drawer of
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: Oswald's side table. So he couldn't have found it on
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: the 24th when it had already been found on the 22nd.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: So right there you have a huge.
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: Discrepancy.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: We say around here, that's a problem.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: That is a problem, and it gets worse. So I
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: don't know why someone would want to take that page out.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: That shows Oswald's guilt, his murderous intention right there.
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: Right. So why would you leave that in, but you,
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: you know, why would you take that out but then
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: leave in the page that has Hostie's name, his government
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: agency license plate number, and the FBI field office on commerce,
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: and the phone number? Why would you leave that in
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: there to embarrass Hoover, but then you would take this out?
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: So for the Warren Commission, they didn't actually... leave in
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: the hosty part did they or am i so.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: When it was when it was transcribed initially by the
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: fbi they left that out right now they said at
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: the time well we're only you know it has to
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: do with viable leads no they left it out because
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: it would be embarrassing to the fbi to hoover we
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: all know that so we talk about conspiracies rob yeah
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: there was a conspiracy by the fbi in this case
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: to cover themselves right no doubt about it they mean
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: they killed kennedy at all This means they were in
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: a CYA mode. That's fine. That's what this is about.
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: Cover your ass mode.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: Correct. So we all understand that. But then it gets
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: even worse. So it's one thing to have a paper trail.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: And we have this. But I need to go a
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: step further. So I petitioned the National Archives to 3D
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: image an infrared test and do oblique lighting on the
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: address book. It took about six months. But they finally
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: let me do it.
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: Can you explain what oblique lighting is? Sure.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: So you can take a piece of paper and you
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: can shine light horizontally. You can shine it from the top,
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: different angles. And what that will do is that will
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: show indented writing. So when you write on the piece
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: of paper, when you rip that piece of paper off,
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: the subsequent underlying pages will have indentions from the original writing.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: You can see that typically through the naked eye with
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: oblique lighting. shining on different angles on the surface. So initially,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: the National Archives did that for us, and I have
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: that here for you. We didn't see anything, nothing at all.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: Right, so if he had actually wrote this in his
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: address book, it should show up on the next page.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Correct. That is correct. It did. It wasn't there.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: Now, you mentioned before that this address book is missing
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: several pages.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: It is. It's missing four pages. Now, the one page
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: we believe that Mike Howard is talking about is the one,
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: can you see it on the screen?
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: Let me bring it up here.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Here is one of the oblique lighting pages. Now, you
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: can see in the middle where the two pages meet
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: on the top, the top third is what we call
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: an off cut. So a page was ripped out of here,
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: and it left a little sliver of a page behind.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Can you see that? Okay.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Are we looking at the right picture here? I'm seeing
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: two different versions of the address book.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah.
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Kind of hard to see where the missing page is
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: ripped out, but yeah.
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: It is.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: Right in the middle there.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: It's right in the middle. So it's called an offcut.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: We're sure this is where it came from. Now, just
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: to make sure we cover all of our bases, we
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: tested all of them. We tested... all four missing page areas.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: It's very, very difficult to see the other three unless
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: you personally examine it at the archives. And that's what
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: we did. So we went down there and we did
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: 3D imaging. This has never been done before with the
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: address book because it's one thing to show a paper trail,
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: but you really have to take this to the next level.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: So we brought our iStar Vega 3D imager And the
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: address book is extremely brittle. They keep it in a
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: vault in the dark, and they brought it out for
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: this special occasion, but they couldn't even take it out
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: of its plastic case that Oswald had because it's already
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: starting to detach. And we did 3D imaging. We did
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: infrared because he did scratch out entries in the address book.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: And if you use the same pen that he wrote
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: the entry with to scratch it out, we can read
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: underneath that. And then we did oblique lighting, which is
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: shining more light across the pages. The bottom line is
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: that those pages were ripped out before anything was written
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: on them. There was never anything written on those address
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: book pages. And that's science. And there's no... Barring some
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: sort of advancement in technology, this is as good as
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: it's going to get because it's not available for viewing anymore,
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: the address book.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: So when did Mike Howard first... come out with this story?
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: I trace it back to 1993 on the 30th anniversary.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: A newspaper article came out which was carried by the
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: Associated Press and others that said, had this story. He's
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: been interviewed with the Sixth Form Museum with the oral history.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: He was interviewed by Gus Russo in 2016. He told
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: Gus Russo that the only reason he said this about
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: the address book page being missing because he was mad
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: at the FBI. He didn't like agent hosting. They called
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: him Agent Hostick because they thought that he was arrogant
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: and that he put people's lives in danger. And he
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: told them, hey, listen, I know who did it. It
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: was ordered from the higher-ups, but I'm not going to
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: tell you who did it. So he gives you enough
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: information so you can't verify it. If you have all
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: the information, let us know. And then he said to me, oh,
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: what if I said it was written in pencil? So
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: it's things like this, and the whole story just collapsed.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: So you actually interviewed Howard.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: On the phone I did. Okay.
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: Yep.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: And he told me the same story. And then later
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: on I sent him a self-addressed stamped envelope. And I
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: gave him a return. I gave him paper and I said,
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: please draw for the best of your recollection exactly what
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: you saw. And I never received it.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: Hmm.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Hmm.
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: Uh, Rob, can you, I, I just, uh, shared my PowerPoint.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: Could you put that on the screen, please? Because I
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: just want to give the video audience, the YouTube audience, um,
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: this is a clip from, uh, your article, sir. Um,
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: and this is the kill list, which is, again, not
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: that I'm a little nutter, but it seems a little
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: sus to me. Um, Connelly, of course, who we had
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: problems with, with I mean, with his discharge, right?
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: His dishonorable discharge. General Walker, Agent Hostie, I will kill
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: that son of a bitch. And the Vice President, which
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: I guess is LBJ, right?
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: Correct. Although, one can make an argument it was Nixon.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, at this point, who knows?
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: Okay. Can you go to the... Let me go to
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: the next page, Rob.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: Shit. It's okay. Now, I did create that, and that
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: was on an actual blank page of the address book,
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: but that is my recreation. Okay.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: I was going to say, that does not look like
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Oswald's handwriting.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: No, it's not.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: And this, Rob, is I believe what Sean was referring
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: to with the obvious ripped out page, right?
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: Okay. Correct. That's it.
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: And just to... Because.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: You know, Rob and I get a lot of shit
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: sometimes because we're not on, like, the far end of
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: the conspiracy spectrum. Like, we call out bullshit when we
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: see it.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: As you should.
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: We don't know. The page was obviously ripped out. We
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: don't know who ripped it out. It could have been Oswald.
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: It could have been whoever. We don't know.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Correct. Well, he bought that in Moscow. So who knows?
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: And I will say he did use little bits of
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: paper during his life. So when Marina was at the
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: hospital in Minsk giving birth to June, he did use
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: little pieces of paper like that, scraps of paper. Pauline
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Bates in Fort Worth, when she was transcribing Inside Russia,
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: which was a 50-page manuscript, she said some came in
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: bits of paper, and she motioned like this. So he
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: did use bits of paper.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: I got another bit of paper for you, too.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: What's that?
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: He gave a bit of paper to Officer Martello in
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: New Orleans.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: He did.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: Now, I've looked at all of that stuff, and those
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: aren't the address book pages because the address book, the
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: audience must understand, is extremely small. It's about 2 1⁄2
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: inches by 4 inches. Very, very small. It's not your
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: typical 8 1⁄2 by 11 binder. It's extremely tiny.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Fit in your pocket, you know.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: Kind of like a cell phone, like you alluded to
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: in your article. Like, there were obviously no cell phones
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: back then. Correct. So you had an address book.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: That was his lifeline. And that goes to something else.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: I don't want to go down a rabbit hole, but,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: you know, when he.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: We don't mind.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: I've come to the right place, haven't I?
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: There we go.
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: You're among friends.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: All right. We'll see. After he shot Kennedy... He came
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: back to his rooming house, right? Did he grab his
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: address book? Absolutely not. He changed his appearance. He armed himself.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: And I believe he was heading on the northbound bus
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: to finish off Walker. Of course, Walker wasn't in town, right?
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: He was in Louisiana. But also didn't know that. And
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: why would you try to be going to Mexico City
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: or any other place like that when you leave your
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: address book behind? That was his lifeline. He had nothing.
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: Can I stop you, sir? Sure. What makes you think
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: he was planning to finish off Walker?
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: Because studying Oswald the way I have, and when he
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: wrote about something, it wasn't arbitrary. Everything he did had
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: a purpose to it. And I believe there's no other
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: reason to arm yourself and then wait for the northbound
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: bus than to finish a murderous intent. I believe that
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: I know he hit Kennedy. You don't know if he
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: knew he hit him bad, but he knew he hit him.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: And I think he had nothing else left. He was
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: on borrowed time. He knew that. There's nowhere you can hide.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: There's nowhere you can go. So I believe he's waiting
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: for the northbound bus, you know, Walker was about four
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: miles away, to go knock on his door and kill him.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: To finish what he had started back in April. That's
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: what I believe. There's no other reason to go northbound bus. None.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: He wasn't going anywhere. That address book he took to
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Mexico City, he took everywhere he went. But at that point,
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: he didn't need it anymore. He wasn't going anywhere. Uh-oh.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Joe, you there?
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Sean froze. Can you hear us, Sean?
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: We'll figure this out in a minute.
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we're back.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we got you back.
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: Hold on, my.
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: You're giving Rob a lot of homework.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Your camera angle changed pretty good.
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: Hopefully we didn't... Let me mark this. 18.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, about 18, like 20. About 18 minutes. How about that? Perfect.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: My apologies. It's okay.
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: It happens.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: Good.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: So that's my opinion. I mean, there's no other logical reason.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Everything he did had a meaning. Everything he did had
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: a purpose.
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so one of the things we've talked about a
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: lot is why wouldn't Oswald take his pistol with him
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: to the TSBD, right?
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: If.
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: He planned on shooting the president. That would seem like
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: a logical idea.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: Well, he's already carrying a rifle, Joe. What do you
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: want him to go in there like Arnold Schwarzenegger?
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: Allegedly.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: There you go.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: That's it.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Allegedly, Rob. Come on now.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Well, I believe this. I don't think he knew what
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: to expect. Would a normal person think, hey, they're going
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: to have cops there to frisk you and pat everybody down?
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: I don't know. He may have thought that. He may
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: have thought that he was going to walk out of
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: there alive.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: Who knows? Yeah, I think he... in my personal belief,
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: I think Oswald was very shocked at what happened and
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: then had to kind of detour and get his gun,
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: and he was scared for whatever reason.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: Even expecting to get away.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: So he got away with Walker, remember that. I mean,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: and they never found out. They never connected Oswald to
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Walker ever. So we thought he was smarter than everybody else.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: Right. And we've talked, we've done a lot of great
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: episodes on Oswald and the Walker incident. And, you know,
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: if I had to put a gun to my head
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: who Oswald wanted to kill, Kennedy or Walker, it would
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: have been Walker. Because I do like your upcoming book,
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: I'm guessing is going to describe, definitely had Marxist, leftist tendencies.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. So he wrote about Walker. Now, his proto-manifestos, which
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: he wrote about, which he wrote in Neely, in his
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: mudroom in Neely, they were unfinished. But he did write
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: about Walker. He did call Walker a fascist. He did
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: have conversations with folks that he believed that Walker was
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: an up-and-coming Hitler and that he was doing a service...
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: by eliminating Walker. He photographed his house. At the archives,
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: when we were doing the 3D imaging of Oswald's address book,
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: we also looked at his blue three-ring binder that he
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: carried with him in New Orleans when he was doing
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: the protests, and that he kept his Walker notes and
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: photographs and all that kind of stuff in it. We
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: saw that. We checked that for indented writing as well.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: Okay, Sean, I want to ask you a question, just
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: because I visited the archives in May with a group
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: of five people assassination researchers, and with our little scanners here,
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: and we scanned a bunch of things, requested boxes. How
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: did you get access to that? And is it at
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: the archives now, the address book?
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. So I did a Freedom of Information Act
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: request to the National Archives. It's in College Park, Maryland.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: This part of the collection is. And you have to
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: show a.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: Compelling reason why looking at a photograph alone would not
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: satisfy your request. And in this case, you know, they
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: will not release the evidence, right? You can't take it
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: home with you and bring it to a lab. No,
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: the lab has to come to the archives. And the
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: only reason, the only way we could do that is
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: to bring the scanner there. So we had to show
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: a compelling reason. We had to show the scanner would
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: not ruin the document. We had to go through a
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: series of steps. It took four or five months to
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: get it done. But when it was all said and done,
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: They approved it because that's something they could not do.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: And then we did it out of controlled circumstances. We
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: had three or four archivists there. We had controlled lighting.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: And so the conditions were present for us.
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: To do it.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: And honestly, you just have to be nice to people.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: You can't be demanding to them. And you have to
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: show a compelling reason. And if you're serious and you
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: have serious research and you have something that's never been
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: done before, This has never been done before and never
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: will be done again. So they're actually excited to see
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: what will come up. We were schooling them on what
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: the address book contained. If you go to one of
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: the pictures on my blog, you'll see a sideways version
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: of the address book, and it had initials HMM for
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Henry M. Moore. He was the detective on the 22nd
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: who put his name all over that address book when
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: they found it.
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: Chain of custody. Correct.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: And they didn't know what that meant. They didn't know
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: who this was. They didn't even know the initials were
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: on there. I actually had photographed that myself because I
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: hadn't been photographed before like that.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: Right. They're not experts there. They're not. They have a
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: job to do.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: For sure. Stonewalling, for sure, that I've dealt with personally.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: But they don't know the case like I say we would,
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: us three would.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: Correct. They don't. For them, you have to.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: They are very, very nervous about the condition of this
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: collection that they don't want everybody to come take a
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: look at it because the more hands that are on it,
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: the more chances it can become degraded or damaged and
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: that type of thing. They're just very guarded about it,
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: not for conspiracy reasons, but because they have a job
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: to protect these artifacts for the future. Correct.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: See what happens, Joe, when you plan out your trip
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: to the archives and you're nice to them? You don't
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: just show up at the front door like a skifusa
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: and be like, I want to see this and I
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: want to see that.
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: No, no, no. Let's get this straight here. I made
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: multiple advance requests. I was greeted with like eight or
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: nine boxes. I scanned them all and then I made
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: another one. But, you know, my iPhone charger was on
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: a document, right? And like the people that come around
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: and they were paying attention to us, Sean. They were
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: paying attention to us. Five people, skafoozes we call them,
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: coming just like, it's a joking term, but, you know,
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: five people with scanners requesting all this evidence at once.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: We got some visits from upstairs, the top floor. Let's
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: just say that.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: And I did too. So I had someone, I had
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: a student come down. He was interested. I couldn't touch
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: it because it's part of the restricted collection. I can't
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: get anywhere near it. I was only able to get
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: probably a foot from it, maybe a little. That was it.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Because they're scared. They are responsible for that collection.
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: And they have a big responsibility there. So actually, I
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: think we're probably going at the end of December, beginning
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: of January, something like that. So you want to tag along?
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: My third book, Oswald's Library, The Literature That Forged His Ideology,
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: I'm going to look at the books he had in
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: his collection, his pamphlets, newspapers, look for any writing in there.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: We're going to 3D scan, image a lot of his
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: pamphlets and his books to see what he wrote in
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: the marginalia, that type of thing. We're looking at real
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: Oswald stuff, Joe.
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: I love it. I love it. It would be good
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: to have kind of like both sides of the fence there.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: Because, I mean, my... visit to the archives, last thing
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: I'll say about it, was very eye-opening. Like, I just
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: had to kind of, what's the word? Like, it was
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: very hard to figure out the process. So if I
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: went a second time, I would be much more prepared,
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: as Rob alluded to. And not that I wasn't prepared,
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: but that I didn't know what to expect. And the
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: documents in the boxes I requested, they were so, like,
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: you know, kind of on me every time, like a
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: wire touched something. I could only imagine how it would
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: have been with the actual Oswalt address book.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. And, yeah, and that's the Restricted Collection. You know,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: we found... In his blue binder, he had a lot
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: of hands-off Cuba pamphlets, right? Couldn't touch those. He had
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Karl Marx's postcard in there. He had a postcard of
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Minsk in there, some other things. We could photograph it,
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: no problem, but couldn't get too close to it to
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: photograph because they're worried that something's going to happen to it, right?
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: Something's going to fall on it, whatever's going to happen. But,
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: you know, that's healthy debate. So it's healthy if you
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: were to come join us because, you know, if we
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: have someone that may be on the other side... There
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: you go. Uh-oh. Nope.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: Let's see. Here we go. Go down a little bit.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: That is a fraud. Look at you. That is fraudulent, Rob.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Come on now.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: It's a movie prop, Sean.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: JFK. That's correct. So I will have another. It's in
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: my book, Communist Tendencies. But I will have in there
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: is an analysis of that. And it's a fraud. Even
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: the rubber stamp they use is not even the same.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: He used a warrior rubber stamp kit. That's just. And
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: those leaflets were in green. From the movie, he had
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: yellow and white. And the font is wrong. The spelling
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: is off. So I'll have a whole new blog about
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: that coming up.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: All right, so let's talk a little bit about Lee
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Harvey Oswald as a young man. And let me blow
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: this piece of paper here up that I have on
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: the screen. And this is part of his communist... I
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: guess when he was visiting Cuba, part of his bona
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: fides is being a quote unquote communist type, right?
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: But in, on this paper, he clearly states that he
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: has been studying communism, uh, or Marxism or Lenin, Leninism
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: since the age of 15, right? Right. Um, going back, uh,
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: 18th century philosophers work at, I hate reading cursive, Sean, but, uh,
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: basically you know he kind of admits that he started
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: looking at this stuff from a young age and being
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: interested in it.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: There's a lot to unpack with that. There is a lot.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: So Oswald was intelligent, but he was not intellectual. And
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: there is a difference. So yes, he read Communist Manifesto.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: He read Das Kapital. He did. I mean, I have
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: Das Kapital on audiobook and it's really difficult to understand, right?
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: So can a 15-year-old understand those principles? Of course not.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: So if you look at that, that's what we call
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: the revolutionary resume. He hand wrote that, of course, with
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: the pencil, which I have his actual pencil on the
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: back cover of my book, which I wish I had
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: it here, but there was an issue with that before
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: I came on the show. And if you look at
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: that letter, it is rife with misspellings because when Oswald
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: became very passionate about what he was writing about, his
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: writing became frenzied. And it became sloppy, and it had
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: a whole bunch of spelling errors in it because that
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: meant something to him. His other letters, some are fine.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: This one, this thing he wrote in his blue notebook,
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: that meant something to him. This was the culmination of
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: everything he did in New Orleans. That was going to
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: be his ticket, so he naively thought, to get to Cuba.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: And if you read that, you yourself said you couldn't
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: even read it because you can't. it's full of misspellings.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: He called himself a photo graper, sort of a photographer,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: a photographer, you know, all this kind of stuff. Um,
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: and that's how you can really tell Oswald. If you
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: look at that one sheet, um, it meant something to him.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: And that's how passionate he was about ideology. Now he
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: made a comment in Moscow in 1959. He goes, it's
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: a matter of ideology. You don't understand. Yeah. Also wasn't ideal.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Cause I made the comment before, before the show, but
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: I'll say it here.
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: Um, Of.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: Course, this is an evolutionary process when it comes to
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: diving into this case and what you believe, right?
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: It evolves over time based on new information, a different
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: way of looking at things or analyzing things, that type
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: of thing. And conspiracy theorists are very guilty of.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Of believing the narrative that we've been spoon fed for
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: a lot of years about Oswald, uh, really being an
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: undercover CIA operative or a FBI informant or being sheep dipped.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: And when you really look at the breadth of the
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: communist or Marxist stuff that he was writing about like this,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: you look at his speech at the Jesuit college, uh,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: The fact that he was handing this stuff out, going
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: on the radio. He sounded pretty knowledgeable about things in
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: his debate with Brene. And just the kind of stuff
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: that he always had around him. All of his little
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: newspapers that he subscribed to and other pamphlets. It seems
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: like a lot. If Oswald was really pulling a con
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: and being undercover and pretending to be this person... then
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: he's really going above and beyond the call of duty, right,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: to make himself look like that he's pro-Castro or a communist.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: He's an overachiever, right? Yeah. That's one hell of an overachiever.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: When people say he was sheep-dipped, he was an FBI informant,
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: what you're dealing with there is an imperfect understanding of
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: Lee Harvey Oswald, period. You have to understand what he wrote,
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: his personality. He was a one-man band. And he believed
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: what he wrote. So, you know, everything he worked for
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: was up to this point. Everything he wanted to do,
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: this was going to be his shot. You know, Russia
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: was not going to take him back. He naively thought
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: he would show them this revolutionary resume and the newspaper
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: clipping of him being arrested in New Orleans. You know,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: that doesn't supersede policy, right? Doesn't supersede, you know... The
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: way that the Russian and the Cuban consulates are going
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: to do things, that's not going to do it.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because he was writing letters, him and Marina both,
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: writing letters on and off from the beginning of 1963
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: to the Soviet embassy here in America, and I think
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: to the Russian one as well. And at first it
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: was just about getting Marina back to Russia And then
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: they found out she was pregnant and thought it would
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: be a good idea for her to have the baby
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: in Russia. And so the Russians were like, okay, but here,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: we're going to give you a big list of hoops
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: you need to jump through first. And so she jumped
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: through the hoops. And I think the one thing that
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: was holding her up was finding some place to live
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: and stay when she got back there. They weren't just
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: going to give her a spot anymore. So she basically
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: needed a sponsor. And then it became her and Lee
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: trying to go back. And then the correspondence kind of
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: ended in June or July of 63. And then you
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: see this kind of shift into like overdrive with Oswald
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: ramping up the pro Castro stuff. Right. And ultimately ending
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: with him trying to get to the Soviet embassy in
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: Mexico City, hoping that he could get it you know,
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: an emergency visa to Cuba that way. All right. You know.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: Somebody get Joe for me, please.
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: I find it.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Interesting that he didn't take Marina with him if that
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: was originally part of the plan.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: No. It's my opinion that he was going to let
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: Marina and baby June go back to Russia. He fully
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: intended on leaving them behind. If he thought he was
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: going to make it to Cuba... Right. And he.
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: So you're talking about Mexico City trip.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: Correct. Yes, sir. So I believe he felt... Ideology came
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: before anything. So you talk about the pamphlets. You know,
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: he had a gonyok, and he had Crocodile. Crocodile was
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: the Russian satirical magazine. He had Pravda. He had all these...
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: You know, he purchased firearms. He had all this kind
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: of stuff. Yet Baby June slept in the bottom drawer
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: of the dresser. They pulled on the bottom door of
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: the dresser, and that was her crib. So he was
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: all about ideology. He was all about himself. Oswald was
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: worried about Oswald. And everything he did had a reason,
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: and he was fully prepared to leave Marina and June
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: behind because his ideology came first. That's what he lived for.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: Do you think it was his ideology, or do you
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: think it was more about his... or a combination of both,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: maybe his... unhappiness in their relationship with Marina and the
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: fact that, you know, she wanted to come to America
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: and get all the, you know, the things that they
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: don't have in Russia, you know, like a washing machine,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: you know. She wanted the little house with the picket
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: fence and the American dream and all this shit, and
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: Oswald couldn't give it to her.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: And he would not accept help either from the Russian
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: immigrant community.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: And she probably resented him because of that, which, of course,
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: is a breeding ground for contention on both sides.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: And, you know, eventually it comes to a boiling point
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: or a tipping point, to quote Larry Hancock. And, you know,
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: ultimately he lays his cards on the table and he
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: tries to go to Mexico City, to the embassy there,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: and to get to Cuba.
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: Doesn't happen.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: Doesn't happen. So he's got to turn tail and tuck,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: you know, and go back and try to make some
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: kind of a life, you know, with, with, with his
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: family there. And I guess at some point, you know,
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: if you're from the low nut camp, uh, Hey, you know,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: screw it all. I'm just going to kill the president
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: and whatever happens happens.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: Well, no. So Kennedy was never in Oswald's crosshairs, uh,
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: no pun intended he came back to mexico city and
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: he went straight to the ymca he didn't tell marina
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: he was back in town right and then he decided
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: for a while that he was going to try to
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: go on the straight and narrow like he did before
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: and he applied to jobs and one of them was
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: to the pageant printing company and so theodore gangl who
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: interviewed oswald for the pageant printing company um checked Oswald's references.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: And Oswald lied his entire life. And it's in my
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: book how when he would put references at where he
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: worked in prior employment, he made stuff up.
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: He did.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: 100%. Yeah.
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: 100%. Where was the pageant printing company?
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Off at Industrial Boulevard.
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: In Dallas.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Correct. Okay. So for whatever reason, Oswald told the truth
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: this time, and I don't know why. And he put
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: down Jagger's child Stovall as a reference. So Theodore Gengel
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: calls Bob Stovall. And on the back of the application,
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Gengel wrote, Bob Stovall does not recommend this man, has
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: history as a troublemaker, has communistic tendencies. And he underlined that.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: And that's where the book, that's what the title of
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: the book came from um because that was his reputation
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: he read communist literature um you know dennis opstein spoke
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: russian as well and they you know they had conversations
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: and he brought his literature there and you know he
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: would think along with people and like anything else in
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: his life he was you know he did make friends
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: and he He would rub people the wrong way and
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: either get fired or he'd quit and move on. That's
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: the way he did. So he did come back to
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: the straight and narrow. And I really believe Oswald had
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: about 48 hours to plan this. And I think that
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: if Marina had taken him back that night, he wouldn't
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: have done it. I think he was on the fence
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: that night. He asked Marina three times to come back
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: with him. You know, they'll get their own apartment, that
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: type of thing. And three times Marina, you know, rebuffed him.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: Wait, you're talking about Thursday night, the 21st? Correct.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: I think he was on the fence because he knew
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: he was never coming back from this. One way or another,
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: this was it. And self-preservation is a pretty strong instinct, right?
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: So he got away with Walker. That was small. That
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: was peanuts. But if you're going to try to shoot
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: at the president, there's no coming back from that. And
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: I think he was still on the fence. I really,
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: really do. I mean, he had ideology, but, you know.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: But Marina rebuked him, and that's when he meant, I
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: have nothing else left. My wife doesn't want me. I'm
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: living in a rooming house. I am estranged from my
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: wife and kids. I'm making minimum wage. Always will. Doesn't
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: have an education. Guy's a GED in the military, so
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: has a dishonorable discharge. What's he going to do?
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: Right. Well, when you look at Lee and Marina's relationship,
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: it's kind of like.
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: A love story where they'd come together, they'd fight, then
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: they'd come apart, and they'd live apart, and they'd move
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: to different places, and then they'd come back together. And
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: a lot of that, I think, is based on the kid, right?
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: The kids, or June. But I'm not sure about the...
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: He was still debating it on the Thursday. That's interesting
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: to me.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, of course we'll never know, right?
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: I think he... That's my guess. That's what my hunch is. Otherwise,
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: why would he ask Marine to come back with him?
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: If he was dead set on taking a shot at
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: the president the next day, why would he even bother
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: talking to her? Why would he even bother asking her
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: these questions? Hey, come on back. I'll get you the
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: watch machine. You know that story. I'll get an apartment
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: in Dallas. We can live together. Come on back for
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: the holidays. Why would he even say that stuff if
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: the next day he was dead set on taking a
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: shot at the president? It doesn't make any sense to me.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: You know, he did spend time with his kids. And,
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: you know, you have that sense with his kids of
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: final moments, right? And, you know, playing with the kids
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: under the tree in the front yard and that type
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: of thing. And, you know, I think he did ask
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: because he was on the fence. Otherwise, why would you
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: do that?
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I have a question. So, you know, I'm of
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: the belief that Oswalt was framed and that he actually
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: still wanted to go to Cuba. and that he still
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: might have thought he was going to Cuba on the 22nd.
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: It's interesting to me why he would try to... Do
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: you think he thought he was going to Cuba any
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: time that weekend? Do you think he still had that hope?
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: No.
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: Because if he did, he would, I mean, once again,
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: let me circle back to the address. There's a lot
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: of reasons. But, no, he'd already been rebuffed. He wasn't
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: getting back. He already tried it. They turned him down.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: He didn't take his money with him either, did he?
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: He left it with Marina.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: And that's the thing.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: He was extremely, he was, correct.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: He didn't spend a penny unless he absolutely had to.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: And on the last day, you know, on Friday, when
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: he left his wedding ring, in a small little cup
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: that Marina had, gave her most of his money, which
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: was not Oswald's deal at all. And, you know, I
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: think he wasn't getting back. He tried it. They weren't
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: going to let him back. He tried several times over
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: several days to do it. Went back and forth between embassies.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Didn't happen. No way. He only had, like, what.
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: $ 10 or $ 15 on him?
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: $ 13 and change, yeah. Which is not enough to make
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: a getaway, you know what I mean? Like, to get
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: out of the country type thing.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: No, and then he also left his address book behind.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: That had phone numbers and addresses and stuff of some
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: of the Cuban contacts that he ran into. So, all that,
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: I think he was just at the end of his rope.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: His life was not getting any better. I think this
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: was his chance to become somebody, to go out in
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: a blaze of glory. You know, that's... Mm-hmm. It's sad,
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: but I don't see any evidence to the contrary.
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, my problem always has been the topic
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: of motive. Like, why kill, which was considered a very
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: leftist president, if you have leftist Marxist-type ideals, if you
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: knew that LBJ would take over, which probably would have
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: been an improvement.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean? That's always the part that
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: sticks in my brain.
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: So I understand that, and that's a good point. But
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: I think you have to look at it a different way.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: Oswald was striking at the heart of capitalism. So he
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: had something called the atheism system. So he didn't like
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: Soviet communism. He didn't like American capitalism. And he truly
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: thought there was going to be a nuclear catastrophe. That
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: the world... The political system would have to start over again.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: And he was going to offer this atheism system. So
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: I think that's what he wanted to do. And I
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: think that he hated capitalism. He thought his mother was
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: subservient to that, that he was. He was going from
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: job to job to job. Barely had two nickels to
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: rub together. And I think he thought this man... JFK
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: is coming right under my window at lunchtime. What are
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: the odds of that? He's 40 yards away from me.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: What are the odds of that? I think he thought
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: as a sign that he was destined for greatness because
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: what else is he going to do?
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: Get another job?
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Did he write about this nuclear scenario?
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: He did write about the nuclear catastrophe. Now, that one's
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: rife with misspellings as well. And in my book, I
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: keep his spelling the way it is to keep the
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: historical record, to have integrity of the historical record. He
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: wrote about that and he truly believed it. So there's
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: something called, you know, Cade Misamor, who wrote a book
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: called Oswald, The Life and Times of Revolutionary, came out
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: about two years ago. He identified Oswald's third position. And that's,
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: he was going to offer a alternative political system. And
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: that's what he was about. And that's naive, right? How
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: is some guy who lives, you know, basically is living
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: in a closet, How is he going to put forth
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: this new political system? That's the way he thought. He
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: thought he'd get to Cuba via Mexico City, but it's
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: showing some paperwork. No, that's not going to work. So
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: he was very naive, very naive in how the world
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: really works and how politics works.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: Well, when you mentioned something about that nuclear scenario, it
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: clicked off something in my head, and we talked about it,
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: and I got it here in front of me, Sean.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to show it to you. on the screen.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: And if you're like us, you've, you've looked at many
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: a Lee, Lee H Oswald signature and you, you know
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: what to look for, right?
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to pop this up on the screen.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: It's the American museum of atomic energy from Knoxville, Tennessee
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: visitors register. And it's dated July 26, 63.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: Can't see.
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: Can you, it's only a little bit.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: I'm popping it up here. Can you see it okay?
• 48:11
  Speaker 5: I do.
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: It's small.
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: Maybe enlarge it.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Appreciate it.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: So the interesting thing here is to me and my
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: highly untrained professional eyeball, that looks like a legit Oswald signature.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: That's not him. That's not how he wrote Doubt, no.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: So in my book, I do have writing samples from him.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: That is absolutely not Was that July 26th? No.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, July 26th. His last entry on the 26th. Then
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: it goes to the 27th.
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's not his handwriting at all.
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: You don't think the L looks like his previous L's?
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: The O in Oswald?
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Because we are handwriting experts because we did that.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: Well, you know.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: They were even nice enough to put USSR after his name.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he never did that. He never did that. And
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: there's another dick giveaway. Oswald, when he wrote, wrote with
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: a purpose, Dallas Road?
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: Dallas Road, Dallas.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: He never wrote that.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: But what's interesting here, if you look at some of
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: the other people who have signed in here on the
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: same day, right, or even going back to the 25th, 23rd,
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of Texas people above him.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: Richardson is a suburb of Dallas, yeah. I don't know,
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: but he definitely wasn't there. And that's not his handwriting.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: And that's not uncommon. Look, in the book, I write
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: about how, you know, dear Mr. Hunt, that letter, right?
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: And so what he did was, Oswald had certain words
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: he misspelled, concerning, he would write concerning with a D
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: instead of an N. So the Russians, and he knew this,
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: were going through his mail. And so he took some
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: of his writing samples and they wrote this letter trying
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: to get the scent of suspicion off the KGB and
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: put it on the right in the United States. So
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: His writing has been, his signature has been duplicated. You know,
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: there's a, I write in a book about how someone
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: wrote Oswald on a $ 1 bill and, you know, and
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: put Heidel or anything in his variation. People do this stuff,
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: but that's, that's not his handwriting. When the book comes out,
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: you'll see his samples. He didn't write, he didn't, he
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: never put USS like that.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: That's no, no, no. I was just saying his, his,
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: just the lead H and the Oswald looked, looked very familiar.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, the L perhaps, but the rest of the word, no.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: If you could send that to me, please. You can
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: email it to me.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, it doesn't come from
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: some kooky conspiracy nut. It's coming from the museum. You know,
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: they are the ones that put this out there. Look
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: what we found.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: You know. If you could, please. I'll respect that. I'll
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: let you know.
• 51:02
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: You said that was on the 26th of July?
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was the day before the speech at the
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: Jesuit college.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Cause it went straight from.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: But it's a hike to Knoxville.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: It is.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: And the drive all the way.
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: Six to eight hours each way.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: So we do have his writing. I put up my book,
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: the motel he stayed in Alabama. I do have that.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: So he, he, he did sign the register at the
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: local motel, which is no longer exists, but we have that.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: It's in my book. So I can, I have a
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: paper trail where he was.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: It's just odd that he mentions threat of an impending
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: nuclear holocaust or whatever you want to call it, revolution.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: And then that pops up. And, of course, people like
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: Judith Baker say, oh, well, he went there to pick
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: up some nuclear material to kill Castro with.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: Don't get me started on her, Rob. That's also on
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: the blog coming out. Joey ain't going to like it. Allegedly.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: Allegedly Rob. Um, I'll research that, but I can tell
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: you about that. And then the question is, okay, to
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: what end? Why would somebody write that in there on
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: July 26th of 63 to what end? Right.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: I need to, nobody knew who the hell he was.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: That's correct. So I need to look into that more,
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: but thank you for that. Yeah.
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: Um, So Sean, let me ask you, we talk a
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: lot about inner agency conflict, and I guess that could, uh,
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: be also considered with like interpersonal conflicts, right? So you
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: have Mike Howard saying to the six floor museum, uh,
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: getting back to your article, sir, uh, about the note quote,
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: I can only tell you that we saw the note
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: and I saw it personally. that said, I will kill
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: this son of a bitch, John B. Connolly. Why would
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: he say that? And why would he kind of like
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: throw out his partner?
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: What was it? Kunkel?
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: Kunkel, yes.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it's funny. Kunkel wrote a report, never mentioned
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: any of this stuff. Mike Howard didn't mention that in
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: anything he wrote, right? Until 30 years later.
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: Until decades later. Correct.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: So that's a pretty big deal. I mean, you look
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: like a rock star if you found something like that.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: It's like we talked about earlier. You have the Babushka lady.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: You have Judy Berry Baker. People want their 15 minutes
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: of fame, right?
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: And it doesn't matter what station you are in life,
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: what you do for a living. If you can get
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: in on this, some people just want to have that
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: attention and like the attention. Look at Beverly Albert, wrote
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: a book. She was a consultant for JFK, right? So...
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: These things happen, and it's very unfortunate because this case
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: is full of that. But that's why I went to
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: the archives, too, because I'm like, listen, if he actually
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: wrote this and someone ripped it out, then yes, there
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: is a conspiracy on some end, although why would you
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: rip out a page that proves Oswald guilt? That didn't
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: make any sense. Right.
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: I agree 100%.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: Listen, Joe, if there's something contrary, then I want to
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: know about it. I'm not going to just go look
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: at Oswald did it stuff. If there's something legitimate that
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: we need to look at, I'm all for it, you know?
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: And that's why I did this study. That's why I
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: went to the archives. And I encourage anybody who's listening
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: or is watching to go to the archives and do
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: some diligent research because the stuff is there. And that's
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: why I want to make sure that there wasn't a conspiracy.
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: And this is how, for this particular episode. And it did,
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: you know, it did eliminate some conspiracy theories that Oswald's
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: target was Connolly, right? that somebody was destroying evidence. In fact,
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: in Hostie's book, he was given an opportunity to be
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: alone with the address book in Fritz's office on the
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: morning of the 27th.
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, can you talk more about that, please? Sure.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: So, the address book was taken from Beckley on the
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: 22nd around 530 when they finally left. It was put into, um,
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: pillowcases from Oswald's unmade bed and was taken to, um,
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: police headquarters and, um, It was photographed on the floor.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: After that, it was in Fritz's office, and they were
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: going through it page by page, looking for references, looking
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: for whatever they could find. On the 27th at 1 a.m.,
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: I have a receipt signed by Hostie that's in the
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: blog from Captain Fritz giving him certain items. One of
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: them is the address book. Hostie, in his book... Simon
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: Oswald said that he was direct. He said, hey, the
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: address book is in Fritz's office. Go grab it. And
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: he believes he was given the opportunity to be alone
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: with the address book to rip Hostie's page out of
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: the address book because everybody was scared to death of J.G.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: Hoover with good reason, right?
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: Rob, can you put that up on my screen share?
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: Because that is the Hostie part of the Oswald.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: So there it is. So Hostie visited Marina on the
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: 1st and 5th of November. And Oswald was at work
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: both times. So Oswald, after learning about the first visit
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: from Hostie, told Marina, next time he's there, get me
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: his license plate number and that type of thing. Because
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: Oswald walked home. He took the bus, but he walked home.
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: He was on the lookout for his car. Because he
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: did not like the FBI. He hated the FBI. He
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: thought the FBI was responsible for him losing jobs. He
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: was interviewed twice, that we know of, in Fort Worth.
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: And in New Orleans.
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: Is that HR? Is that Hostie's license plate? Can you
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: put that back up for a second? Can you put
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: it back up again?
• 57:21
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: That HR or HA 81581, is that actually....
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: No.
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: Is that actually Hosey's license plate?
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: No, it's below. It's the bottom half.
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: The MV8605?
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: So, correct. Now, that was off by one, but Marina
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: didn't speak English, right? So, she was off by one. So,
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: November 1st, 1963, FBI agent James P. Hostie. It looks
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: like he put hasty on there. It's kind of hard
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: to read because he was upset. License plate number 1114
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: Commerce Street, Dallas. That was the Dallas field office of
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: the FBI.
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: So are you alleging that Marina gave him the license
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: plate number?
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she did. On the last, yeah, she wrote it
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: down because he instructed her on the first, if he
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: comes back, write down this information. And so on the
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: second visit, on the fifth, Marina sneaks out while Hosey's
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: talking to Ruth Payne. She grabs the information, writes it down.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: When Oswald gets back, he sees this and he writes
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: it down in his address book. That's what he did.
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: because he's always on the lookout for people tailing him
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: for the FBI, because he thought the FBI was just
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: out to get him.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: Now, was the address book part of the evidence that
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: got sent to the FBI laboratory?
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: It did on the 27th.
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: So this wasn't until later.
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: Correct, five days later.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: Because we learned something doing the show the other night
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: about Warren DeBrees, that he was also alone in a
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: room cataloging evidence... to be sent to Washington. It wasn't
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: just Vincent Drain, which is interesting. Something we didn't know.
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: Well, look, they destroyed evidence, right? That note that... oswald
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: wrote to hostie that he hand delivered to his secretary
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: yeah right yeah so they destroyed that and hostie you
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: know was not being honest when he said oh oswald
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: was dead it's not evidence and it absolutely is evidence
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: That is evidence. It doesn't matter if the suspect's dead
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: or not. That is evidence. And they destroyed evidence because
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: they did not want to look bad in front of Hoover.
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: You knew about Oswald ahead of time. You did nothing
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: about it. And now he kills the president. How would
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: that look? Think about 1975 when Nanny Fetter came out
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: with it.
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: So in your opinion, the destroying of the alleged note
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: to Hostie from Oswald was done to cover your ass. Correct.
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: But then why wasn't this page destroyed? torn out either
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: right it.
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: Doesn't make any sense right so that's why I mean
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: you can't argue with science we tested this thing like
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: it's never been tested before and it never happened there's
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: a lot of reasons why it didn't happen this was
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: just you know putting a bow on the.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: Package so I'm wondering and I'm thinking in my head
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: you know how you can see not really an x-ray
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: machine but maybe more lidar-ish if you will if that's
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: a word I'm wondering if there's some kind of machine
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: that could scan that, you know, individual pages in the
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: notebook to see lay, you know, the layers of, of
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: writing going down. I don't know. Maybe I'm just talking
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: out of my ass here, but, and maybe you're to it. Uh, no,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: but it seems to me that there would be some
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: kind of a machine that could maybe bring out that
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: indented image to make it more visible to, you know, so.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: We did find a dinner writing on there, but, It
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: was from their previous page, right? We find in dinner writing.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: We did have a dinner, right? But it was from
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: the stuff for the previous page. So there is a
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: dented writing on there, but it's all accounted for. I mean,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: we three date, we three, the image, every single page
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: of address book from cover to cover, never been done before.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: We have 3d images of everything. We have infrared images
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: of every single page. And then we have the oblique lighting.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: We did five different sets of oblique lighting on the
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: four missing address book pages. It just ain't there.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: I know the last guy to get some really high-res
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: scans of the address book was probably, what, A.J. Weberman? Yeah, that's...
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: For the Oswald Code.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's another thing. So I mentioned him. I
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: didn't want to, but I have to to refute him.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: But that's complete nonsense, complete garbage. He puts in there,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: he sees the name Fiorini in there for Frank. But
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: it's Prince, right? P-R-I-N-T-S, because he had a list of
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: things to do, and one of them was for Maureen
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: to get her fingerprints for her immigration card, which she
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: did on July 24th. So there were things in it,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: you know, crystal for his watch, plug for radio. So
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: I have the exact same model of Oswald's Russian radio,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: the red Russian radio, and sure enough, I have pictures
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: of it, that he had changed the plug to fit American... outlets.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: So plug for radio was right above that. That's stuff
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: he was to do upon his return to the United States.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: So it's one thing to get high resolution scans. You
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: get high resolution scans of the address book right now
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: on the archives website. They scanned it after I left.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: Because it was already out, so they scanned it all again.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: That's not going to tell you what you want to know.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: You have to use science. And so you're not going
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: to get anything from a high-resolution scan. Go there, go
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: look at it, go inspect it, and use a 3D imager.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: Use infrared lighting. Do all this other stuff.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: You know, it's... Well, you can find Heming's name and
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: Warren DeBruise's name.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: You find nothing of the sort.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: Elvis Presley's name.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right?
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: Roscoe White's name. I mean, look, we're no fans of A.J.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: Webberman here either, so it's not like we're running against work.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: But I think that was... The first time that we
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: actually got to see high-res scans was in that book.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: And you'll see them in my book as well. So
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: my book has all of his writings, and it has
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: the original condition and now the current condition because they
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: put ninhydrin on them and other silver nitrate to bring
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: out fingerprints. Ruined them all. Looks like you spilled a
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: glass of red wine on them. And you'll see them.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: So I have the black and white images, and I
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: have the color images of how they look today.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: Horrible.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: They ruined evidence.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, his ID cards.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: Ruined.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 3: Is that what you're talking about?
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, ruined. Yeah. I've got them in there. But the
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: address book, I had them all in high-resolution scan plus
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: the 3D images, not of the entire book because my
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: book's almost 1,000 pages. So I was limited on what
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: I could put in there. Wow.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: You have a doorstop coming.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: To rival the Googler.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: That's it. Yeah.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: These publishers, man.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: Editors.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: Correct. Yeah, he hates me right now. He's losing money
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: on this one for sure.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: God damn, I only got 600 more pages to go.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: That's it.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. Yeah, I love getting
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: into these different ways of thinking about Oswald just to
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: try to get people to start thinking a little bit.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: And to believe that Oswald was a legitimate... pro-Castro, communist type,
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: you know, you can still put him in a conspiracy
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: even if he is up on the sixth floor shooting
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: the rifle, you know. If that's the direction that you
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: want to go, of course you have to prove that,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: you know. But just because you believe that Oswald is legitimately,
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: you know, pro-Castro, pro-communism, pro-Marxism, whatever, doesn't mean that, you know,
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: he was in the sixth floor shooting. Or if he was,
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: that he wasn't part of a conspiracy. Somebody put him
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: up to going up there and taking some shots. And
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: I'm just placating our conspiracy audience here, Sean.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: Well, like I told Joe earlier, it's important we consider everything, right?
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: You can't close yourself off. If you're pro-Oswald, you can't
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: close yourself off to legitimate concerns, right? And same with
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: folks on the conspiracy side. You can't limit yourself just
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: to conspiracy stuff. You have to look at everything. I
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: think that's how to be a true historian in research
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: is you look at everything. I don't see any evidence
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: of that. When I studied Oswald, he thought he was
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: smarter than everybody else. He thought everyone else was stupid,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: that he knew it all. In his writings, yeah, he
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: was a Marxist, then he was a communist, then he
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: goes back to being a Marxist again. I found a
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: business card he created for the Socialist Workers Party in Dallas.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: When he couldn't join the Fair Play for Cuba committee
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: in New Orleans, what did he do? He copied their logo,
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: and he made fictitious, hands-off Cuba pamphlets and FPCC membership cards.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: And in Dallas, he was going to start a socialist
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: workers' party. Didn't get off the ground, but that's what
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: he did. So he was a one-man band. He couldn't
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: join the socialist workers' party because they had no members
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: in Dallas at that time. So he was going to
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: create his own chapter there. So he was still learning.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: He was only 24. And if we think back to
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: when we were 24, as we are now, we had changed, right?
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: We had changed. I couldn't even tell you who was president.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: That's right. A little fuzzy. There you go. So people changed,
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: but he was barely 24 when this happened. So you
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: have to think of him as a man. He was
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: a man. He was a man. There's a dichotomy of Oswald.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: You have the ideologue who was a communist. He was
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: a Marxist. He wanted to join the Communist Party of
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: the USA. He wanted to join the ACLU. He wanted
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: to be a member of the Fair Play for Cuba committee,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: the Socialist Workers Party. He was all over the board.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: He was searching for something other than capitalism.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 3: The current system.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: Correct. And that's why the Atheist system... which was modeled
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: after the Athenian model of democracy, that was his alternative.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: He had his third position. The Athenian system was it.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: And I don't disagree with it wholly. You know, I mean,
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: there's problems with capitalism. There's problems with communism. There's problems
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: with socialism.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: You know, to find that happy medium, you know, it's...
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: it's kind of commendable for a young man like that
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: to be so politically aspiring to want to be able
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: to change society in a way that he thinks would
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: benefit the most people, him in particular. You know, of course,
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: in a capitalistic society, of course, you know, the people
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: that have money, they kind of make the rules. So,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: you know, something like what he wanted to put forth
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: likely would have never, I mean, we've seen, these alternative parties,
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: political parties, come and go over the years.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: You know, and the Green Party or the Libertarian Party
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: and all of this stuff. And they just never have
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: enough traction or enough support to do anything to rival
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: the Big Blue and the Big Red.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: You know. He didn't understand that. But there's a fine
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: line between writing about things and wanting to do things
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: and then crossing that bright line into murdering people. That's
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: what he did with Walker. You know. And so that
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: was going to be his big thing. That's why my
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: next blog is about the mudroom in Neely Street where
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: he wrote. He left his address book behind. He put
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: the letter, it was front and back, written in pencil,
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: to Marina, left his post office key on it, paid
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: the bills, put his address book on top of that
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: and said the address book contains names and numbers of
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: people that will help you. And that was it. He
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: was going to do it. That was his big thing.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: That letter they didn't find until December, Sean? Well, yeah, so.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: Marina takes it and hides it. She makes him destroy
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: a lot of his stuff. So, you know, I was
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: in Neely Street in his house. I photographed the toilet
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: where he ripped up some of the photographs, ripped up
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: his notes he took on his reconnaissance, ripped up his
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: bus schedule, that type of thing. But he did keep
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: a few things, right? He did have several photographs. He
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: had Walker's house, the alleyway. He had the railroad tracks
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: where he hid the rifle. He did keep a few things.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: Marina kept that and used that as leverage against him
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: and said, you need to get out of Dallas. Go
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: back to your roots. Go to New Orleans. She had
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: to get away from Dallas. She kept that and put
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: it in the book of useful advice. And then it
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: wasn't found until later. Now, did Marina lie? Yes, she did.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: Early on, she was scared to death of being deported, right?
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: So she didn't mention anything until December. Lee shot Walker, right?
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: So one of the backyard photographs was destroyed by Marina
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: and Marguerite on the 25th, I believe. It's one of
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: them that he's holding a rifle above his head that
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: was destroyed. So they did destroy evidence and they did
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: lie about it. But just like the FBI lied about it,
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: you know, CIA lied about what they're doing to Castro
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: and you know, their surveillance in Mexico city, that type
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: of thing on embassies, that type of thing.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: We were, we were looking at a theory here a
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: couple months ago about after Lee loses his job at
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: Jagger's child Stovall that that weekend he went back to
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: new Orleans by himself. It's, it's, it's a theory. It's, it's,
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of different moving parts and pieces to
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: this theory. Believe me. Um, And, you know, the one
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: hang-up that we ran into was, you know, of course,
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: the Employment Commission in New Orleans.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, New Orleans.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the Cunningham exhibit. Yeah. Which, there's some suspect things
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: going on with the Cunningham exhibit as well. But we
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: toyed with the idea that he went back to New
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: Orleans that weekend. And It's interesting because that is the
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: weekend before the Walker shooting.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: It would have been the weekend of the 6th and
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: the 7th.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: Because it was fired on the 5th from Jagger's child Stovall.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: It was on the 10th, right?
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the Walker shooting was on the 10th.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 4: And.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know. We were just going with this theory.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 3: And, of course, the David Ferry manifest with Heidel on it.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 3: From the FAA, right? See, there's... So, and there's a
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: bunch of discrepancies in terms of did Oswald actually go
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 3: to the Texas Deployment Commission that... Was that Monday, Rob?
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they said he went Monday.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but then it's crossed out and this and that.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: We know he went there on Friday, which would have
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: been two days after Walking Shooter was... Walker shooting was
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 3: a Wednesday. Yeah, we did a really fascinating episode on that.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 3: A lot of crazy things going on.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: There was the INS people that claimed that they had...
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: In the August letter that Lee Oswald wrote to VT Lee,
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: I think he wrote it on the 1st and sent
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: it on the.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: 4th?
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: Frackus hadn't happened until the 9th.
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: Right. Correct.
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: But in that letter, he writes about the fracas, right?
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: Well, here's a, well, first of all, he lied. He
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: lied to Pat. But I published the book for the
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: first time. You know, Oswald went to, you know, the
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: USS Wasp that was burned in New Orleans. Okay. He
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: goes there first and he hands out his Fair Play
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: for Cuba pamphlets and he hands out one called The
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: Truth About Cuba is in Cuba. That's a 1961 Fair
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: Play for Cuba committee pamphlet, full page, that he received
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: for free. He goes there, he starts passing them out.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: Patrolman Ray for the New Orleans Harbor Police confronts him
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: on a complaint and says, you don't have a permit.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: And Oswald leaves. He goes straight to Canal Street. He
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: starts handing them out again. Now, very few people know
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: about this. He hands them out. There's a guy, the
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: last name of Asner is. Oswald hands him that pamphlet.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: Asner is from Cuba. He was extremely upset that a
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: pro-Casterite was in New Orleans. You know, except for Miami,
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: New Orleans had the largest influx of Cuban refugees. So
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: at one point, I think they were getting 5,000 a
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: day in the area.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 3: Was he in the Navy, that guy?
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure about that.
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 3: I'm saying, like, did he get off the ship? Was
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 3: he in the Navy?
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: No, no.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 3: He was just... a resident.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: He was on Canal Street and I don't know what
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: exactly his business was.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 4: I see.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: But he was handed a pen and he had it.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: He kept it and he hand wrote a letter to J.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: Edgar Hoover a couple days later and gave him that pamphlet.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: Of course, nothing was done about it until after the
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: assassination and then he had a problem. Right. So, I mean,
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: that's just what he did. But, you know, I think
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: the thing about Walker is he did go to downtown
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: Dallas to H.B. Green's and he did pass out the
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: crime against Cuba is in Cuba the pamphlets by Corliss
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: Lamont that he got from the Fair Play for Cuba
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: committee he passed some of those out he had a
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: placard around his chest and when the Dallas police got
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: there about a block or two away observing him he
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: said oh hell here come the cops and he took
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: off through the department store and left so he did
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: have a one-man political theater now that was him I
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: mean he couldn't do much by himself but he was
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: doing what he could do It wasn't enough. That's why
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: he escalated. He had to pivot from what he was doing,
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: and that's why Dallas happened. Because he was getting no traction.
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: Nobody was taking him seriously. Fair play to the Cuban community.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: They didn't want him. The Socialist Working Party didn't want him.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: Why do you think he tried to even get in
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: with the Cuban exiles, the anti-Castro Cuban exiles in New Orleans?
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: And that was him. That's why.
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: On about 29, it's in my book, 20 or 29
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: of the copies of the crime against Cuba is in Cuba,
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: the little pamphlets they distributed. He did stamp 544 Camp
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: Street with his warrior rubber stamping kit. That is Oswald.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: That happened. Now, why do you do that? Because that
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: address was once used by anti-Castro Cubans, right?
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: CRC.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: Correct. Yep. Now, when he went into, now, Mr. Brenguer,
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: last I heard, was in a hospice, and I couldn't
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: interview him. But when he went into Casa Roca, which
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: was his shop in New Orleans, not too far from
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: Canal Street where he was pamphleting, could he have seen
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: something stamped, some addresses stamped on literature? Maybe. Now, I
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: don't want to get into the thing where this could
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: have happened. I'm not sure. He knew about that address somehow.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 3: He wouldn't know, yeah.
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: Somehow he knew about it. And it was complete Oswald
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: one-man political theater by stamping an anti-Castro address on pro-Castro literature.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: That was him. That was one of his little digs
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: that he did. And that's where that 544 Camp Street
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: came from. And also, he had to pass 544 Camp
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: Street to go to the 600 block of Camp Street
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: for his unemployment benefits. So... I don't know. I don't
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: see any pictures of it, but I don't know if
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: some literature is left in. Newman, who owned that building,
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: said people had moved out and left some stuff behind.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: I don't know. But he did have to pass that building,
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: that address.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: Well, he was hanging out down there in Bannister's office, too.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The one that wasn't even on Camp Street.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: I got an interesting picture here, Sean. Check this out.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 3: A Brignier.
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: And maybe he was just messing with the Brignier because...
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: this dude aligned with walker's beliefs i don't know but
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: here he is speaking uh it's a john society yeah yeah.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah i don't know all i know is oswald that
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: was part of his little theater is he was going
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: to infiltrate the enemy according to him what better way
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: to get to know your enemy than to try to
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: infiltrate him and say hey I was in the Marines
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: I can help you that's all he did there was
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: nothing more to it than that it was just completely
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: amateur activity that he was doing that's what he was
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 2: doing that's why he chose Canal Street it was almost
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: across from where Castle Roka was that's why he did that.
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: And the Havana bar.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah Yeah. Oswald didn't drink. He didn't smoke.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 3: He didn't drink.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: No, no, no. In fact, he put a cigarette out
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: on Marina's shoulder. On Elfbeth. So, you know, he did
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: stuff like that. He didn't like smoking. He didn't like drinking.
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: He wasn't a socialite. He read books. He was a bookworm.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: He read books and newspapers, listened to Radio Havana on
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: his radio and that type of thing. That's what he did.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: We're big Oris Pena fans here.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm sure just one of you are. Yeah. And
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: people come up, you know, some people are mistaken, right?
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: So some people legitimately believe they see someone and, you know,
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: that's famous or they see something that happens and they
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: misremember things, but Oswald didn't drink. He didn't do any
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: of that stuff. Nobody liked him. He didn't hang out
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: with anybody. You know, that's just, he repelled people actually.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: He just, Straight edge.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 3: You had to really get in with Oswalt and his
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 3: ideology to really talk to him, right? I think George
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 3: de Mournishill did that very well.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: He had friends in Russia, too, that he would talk to.
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: But not so much in America, except for.
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 3: Tinovitz, right?
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 2: Ernst, yeah.
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 3: So Ernst.
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: But remember, Oswalt was 19 when he met Ernst, right?
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: He's 19, he's... foreign country the guy you know come
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 2: on he's college age we all can remember.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 6: That right i mean you know he allegedly allegedly there
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 6: you go a little fuzzy that's right joe and that's
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 6: and that's one thing you know but when he comes
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 6: back united states he changes and um.
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: The reality sets in but he was seething with ambition
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: he really really was it was misplaced and i didn't
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: know I don't think he knew how to handle it.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 2: I think he thought he had a lot to offer people.
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: He had a lot to offer politics. And he was
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: extremely frustrated.
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 3: I don't disagree with any of that. I just don't see,
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 3: with all due respect, what shooting Kennedy would accomplish.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: Well, it accomplished what we're talking about right now. We're
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: talking about Oswald. Because he wanted to be known for something.
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: He wanted to make a mark for himself. And striking
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 2: at the heart of capitalism was his way of, you know,
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: if you believe he was a Marxist or a communist
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: or socialist, whatever you want to say, he was all
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: three at one point, then striking at the heart of capitalism,
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 2: I think he saw it as a sign. Never in
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: his wildest dreams did he ever think he'd get a
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: shot at Kennedy. Never. I don't think it really crossed
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: his mind. Because, you know, Marina said that he admired him.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: Didn't say anything derogatory about him.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 3: I mean, he checked out two of his books.
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: He did. Profiles in Courage was one of them. Absolutely.
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: And he had a Time magazine in Fort Worth. The
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: cover of JFK was on it in the Mercedes Street
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: little apartment.
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 3: So you're right.
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 2: But you've got to separate that from politics. And above everything,
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: ideology and politics came first. And he was able to
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: strike at the heart of capitalism.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 4: All right?
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: What was Kennedy doing? He heard through Radio Havana and
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: through the worker and the militant that they were, you know,
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: they were doing little sorties against Cuba, right? Castro said
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: that now he's trying to kill me. And so he
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: knew that. And I think he thought that doing this,
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: he'd be a hero to Castro and the communist world. Now,
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: to us, it doesn't make any sense because, you know, Joe,
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: to your point, when he's interviewed in Dallas, he said, yeah,
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: you know, I believe, you know, The predecessor to Vice
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: President is Johnson, and his views on Cuba are about
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 2: the same. So it was never about that. It was
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: about him making a mark, putting a stake in the
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 2: heart of capitalism. Because what else did he have in life? Nothing.
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 2: He went from job to job, apartment to apartment. He
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: had no education. He had no prospects. Dangerous getting worse
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: for him. New Orleans didn't work out. Cuba didn't work out.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 2: Russia didn't work out. What else left is there for
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: this guy who was just seething with ambition to make
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: a mark?
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: I wonder if he ever thought about the possible consequences
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: of his actions being detrimental to his cause in his brain. Because, okay,
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: say they catch him. They know his past. They know
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: his ties, his leanings, and all of that. He kills Kennedy. Kennedy.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: He's a pro-Castro supporter. He used to live in Russia.
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: The natural knee-jerk reaction of our government would likely be
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: retaliation against Cuba and Castro and just wipe them off
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: the planet. You know what I mean?
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: Which could have happened, but didn't happen. Cooler heads prevailed,
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: but that was certainly the angle... immediately after the shooting,
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: you know, that Castro was behind this, and, you know,
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: obviously the nation at that point wants some kind of retaliation.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: The only retaliation we got was in the form of
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: the Warren Commission against Lee Harvey Oswald.
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 3: Yes, they want justice.
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: I can see your point, but you're thinking rationally, and
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 2: you're thinking outside the box, and Oswald's worldview was very,
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: very narrow. He was a very selfish person, and it
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: was just what he wanted. what he believed. And I
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: don't think he thought of these outside things. You know,
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: he thought he can go to, we talked about Mexico City,
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 2: he thought he can go to Cuba by just saying, hey,
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: here's my letters I've written. I got arrested for Castro.
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: Is that going to eliminate bureaucracy? Right? Oh, come on in.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: He was very naive. I don't think he thought that way.
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: And it's hard for us being rational beings.
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, right? Right, but was he that naive
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 3: to think that it wouldn't come back on Cuba? Because
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 3: of course he couldn't predict LBJ's kind of stance on
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 3: it after the assassination but you'd have to think like
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 3: he'd be super naive to not think after doing all
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 3: this Cuba stuff that this wasn't going to blow back.
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 2: On Cuba in some way you're correct Joe I think
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 2: when the final analysis it comes down to it was
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 2: all about Oswald Oswald was all about himself and it
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 2: came down to him getting the attention him You know,
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 2: I think he's going to have a political trial. I
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: think if he had lived, you know, I write in
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 2: a book that in the Walker note, he says certain
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 2: of my writings are the small blue valise. The valise
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: is the suitcase. I have pictures of the suitcase inside
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: now of where he kept his political papers because I
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 2: believe he was going to have a political trial with
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: Walker if he was caught. And with Kennedy, he was
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 2: going to have a political trial. And he's going to
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: espouse Marxism and communism and, you know, the evils of capitalism.
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: That's my guess because he was a political being. That's
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: who he was. But once again, when it came down
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 2: to it, Oswald was worried about Oswald. And I think
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 2: he was looking to come full circle in his mind. Now,
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: not ours, but in his mind, that's the way he thought.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, you've seen that with, what, the Kirk shooting,
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: you had that. You've seen political assassinations and shootings before.
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: They're just, why would you do something like that? Is
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 2: it for your own beliefs to be known for something?
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 2: There are some things that only the people who do
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 2: them understand. And we'll never understand it. Look at, you know,
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 2: school shooters, that type of thing. They'll have a manifesto where,
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: you know, it's for a certain cause or whatever. It
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 2: doesn't make sense to us, right?
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: It's an ideology.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 2: It's an ideology, and he's a very, very selfish person.
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: And we'll never understand it because we're not of that mindset.
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I always said, you know, that the only two people,
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: two kinds of people, who would have taken that shot
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: in Dallas that day, it would have been for their ideology,
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: like they didn't have a problem at all pulling that trigger, right?
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: Because they believed that they were doing the right thing.
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 3: Right. Like a Cuban exile, right?
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 1: Right. Anti-Castro Cuban exile.
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 3: Anti-Castro.
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: Or a very disgruntled white guy from New Orleans. Or
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: somebody who, you know, that was professional and getting paid
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: to do a job type of thing, right? That's one
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: of the two kinds of people who would have pulled
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: that trigger that day. It wouldn't have been some rando.
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 3: Who would have taken that risk?
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: It's a big risk. You've got to weigh the risks of,
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: can I pull this off? Can I get away with it?
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 1: You've got to think you're going to get caught. Broad daylight,
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: shooting from a building occupied by hundreds of people and
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: surrounded by hundreds of people, cops everywhere. He probably thought
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: he was going to get caught.
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 2: 100%.
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 1: And damn, if he didn't get out of there.
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: Now what do you do? I bet he thought he was,
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: you know, when Officer Baker found him, on the second floor,
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 2: he also didn't blink, didn't change expressions, nothing. If it
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: had been you or me and a police officer that
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: had a pistol pointed at our belly, you know, we
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 2: would have some sort of reaction. He had nothing. He
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 2: was in that zone, you know, and then he got
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: let go. And he goes, no, what do I do now?
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 2: And that's why I believe.
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 1: Swipe out the back door.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: That's it?
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, allegedly.
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 3: Allegedly.
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: Allegedly.
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: There's no photos or video of him coming out of
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: the front doors.
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: You're right. You're right. And there is none. And then,
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 2: you know, it's not like it is today. Is there
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: stuff out there that we haven't seen before? I absolutely
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 2: believe there is. Does it capture him? Who knows? Probably not.
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: One of these days we'll see that babushka lady footage.
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 5: And then.
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 4: Allegedly.
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, allegedly.
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 1: Sean, is there anything else you wanted to get to
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: that we didn't touch on this evening? Anything you want
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: to promote coming up? I know the book. I don't
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: know the exact date you got in mind.
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It's next month. I'm doing a blog
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: every two to three weeks on the alsoarchive.com. And I
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: encourage debate with others, like with Joe on the other side.
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: You can have respectful debate. And it's healthy, right? You
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 2: need that. So how do you separate the plausible from
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: the ridiculous?
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 3: Correct.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 5: And albeit maybe low-hanging fruit, I do believe that people
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 5: to kill list is complete bullshit.
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 3: And I agree with the premise of your article because
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 3: if it was real, why tear it out if it
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 3: wasn't Oswalt?
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 3: It would not make any sense. It would go to motive.
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 3: This dude's fucking nuts. Right.
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 4: So.
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: But Oswald didn't write that way. So another thing you
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 2: have to think about is, you know, he only wrote
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 2: in November.
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 3: It's mostly Russian, right?
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: In November of 59, he wrote to his brother Robert
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: because it's just when he had defected and he knew
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 2: the KGB was monitoring his mail and he knew he
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 2: wanted to make an impression on him. I would kill
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: any American that put on a uniform in defense... other
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: country any american and he underscored any american so he
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: did threaten to kill americans in november of 59 in
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: the letter after that when the reality is the harsh
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 2: russian winners and he realized oh this is not pure
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 2: communism out here he changed his tune pretty quick and
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 2: he never never wrote like that again so you know
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 2: just like the hosting note and that he delivered to
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: uh nanny lee fenner didn't stand on both the dallas
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 2: police department the fbi he didn't he didn't write like that.
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: That was not him. He didn't do it. So that's
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 2: another reason why this, you know, this note is fake
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 2: because he didn't write that way. And to what end?
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 2: Why would you write that in a notebook that no
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 2: one else is going to see? He didn't do it.
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: And forensically, we proved it didn't happen. Yep.
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: I think it's amazing what you did and it was
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: a good idea to do it and finally put it
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 1: to rest. Uh, again, this is something I never was
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 1: even aware of or came across or heard of. And
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 1: when I first saw it, I was like, wait, what?
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: Is that really in his address book? But, you know,
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: of course, reading it, I saw, you know, what you
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: did going through all the steps and the testing and
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 1: everything and going to the archives. And it's a commendable job,
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: a commendable thing you did to try to, you know,
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: clear some of the, some of the rumors up if
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: you will uh because even respectable people allegedly respectable people
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: like secret service agents are sometimes full of shit correct.
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: Right you have to calm out on it and you
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 2: know that's why if you have to test these theories
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 2: and if i would have come back if i would
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: have found something i would have told you because man
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 2: that'd be fascinating right Man, this really is true. I
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 2: found something else. I was hoping I would find something.
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: If you could approve this, yeah.
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 2: I wasn't like, I'm not going to find anything. I
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 2: don't want to find anything. I really wanted to find something, anything.
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 2: And it's not there. It's not there. And I was
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: really disappointed I couldn't find more than what was there.
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: I thought we'd find some hidden writing, hidden messages. The
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: address book, you'll see he did cross out some phone numbers.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 2: I've already checked those out. It's in the book. Every
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: page of the address book in my book coming out
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 2: has the names and phone numbers and addresses all explained.
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 2: Who was who, what phone number belonged to so-and-so. So
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 2: all the entries are explained. So we talk about, you know,
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 2: Weberman's book and that nonsense about Fiorini and, you know,
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 2: Watergate and there's secret codes and messages. He didn't write
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: that way. He was not that sophisticated. It was just
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 2: a notebook. It was just an address book. of the
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 2: people and addresses and locations that were important to him.
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: Unless he was a super secret undercover spy.
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: That's it. I wish there was more. I really, really do.
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 2: Because that would blockbuster, but it just ain't there.
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 3: That would have been a new book. But, you know, Sean,
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 3: I do have to give you credit because I do
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 3: think there is tremendous value in having these conversations. I
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 3: think we've had a great one tonight. and um to
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 3: point out the ridiculousness of some of these theories and
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 3: rob and i do our best to try to focus
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 3: on the actual type of conspiracy allegedly um but you know.
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: We play with documents here we play with.
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 3: Documents yeah we play with documents um and your thoroughness
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 3: and doing FOIA requests and going to the archives and
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 3: planning to go to the archives again and doing all
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 3: these scans of the address book, you know, even if
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 3: one doesn't agree with your theory or whatever, you can't
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 3: say that you're uninformed.
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 3: At least from my perspective. So I really enjoyed this.
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 3: And if I can make it, We'll keep in touch.
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 3: I'd love to come to the archives again, man. I
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 3: would do it all over, boy.
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 3: That's a quote.
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 2: I'd love to have you. When I get closer, I'll
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 2: set it up. I'll do a FOIA request coming up
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 2: for this stuff, and we'll get it done. Yeah.
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 3: The problem is it's not cheap. Correct.
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 2: I had to drive up there. I couldn't even fly.
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 2: I had to drive up there from Florida to a
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 2: college partner.
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: Joe took the train down. the train ride from hell and.
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 3: Then I missed my train on the way back yeah
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 3: it was a mess and then it was like University
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 3: of Maryland College Park graduation that weekend I had to
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 3: switch hotels we did a whole episode of this but
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 3: yeah it's definitely like you gotta go to the archives
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 3: at some point to really figure it out but then
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 3: even that is you know it's a problem if you're
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 3: not prepared which I learned personally.
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 2: Correct. And they, and you're right. They do make it
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 2: difficult because they do get a lot of requests. And
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: if we handle a lot of material, like I said,
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 2: the address book is tiny. It's two and a half
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 2: inches by four inches, tiny, and it's brittle. And you
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: can imagine the conditions has been in and the hands
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 2: it's been through. Right. Investigators and that type of thing.
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 2: So they have to have some sort of safeguards in it,
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: but there are ways around that. And, um, You know,
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 2: we're going to look at some of this stuff again
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 2: in December or January, and I'll let you know. If
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 2: you guys are able to make it, anybody in the
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 2: audience wants to make it, I mean, it's a learning
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 2: experience for everyone. No matter what side of the fence
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 2: you're on, it doesn't mean you still can't do research
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 2: and you still can't, you know, do some of these
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 2: things together. Because you have folks on both sides, whether
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 2: it's political spectrum, whether it's this debate, they're on one
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 2: side or the other. And really, I think we all
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 2: want to know the truth. And I think if you're
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: respectful of other people's opinions and treat people– With dignity,
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 2: I think we get a little further along in this
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 2: case than.
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 3: We are right now.
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 2: 100%.
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: Five words.
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 3: Well said, sir.
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 2: Bravo, bravo.
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: Well, Sean, thank you so much for joining us here
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 1: on the show tonight. That is Communistic Tendencies. Be on
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: the lookout for it next month in October, maybe November, allegedly,
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 1: maybe October, allegedly.
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 1: In the meantime, check out theoswaldarchive.com. I'm sure that'll be
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 1: updated when the book does hit, I'm sure.
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 1: You'll be able to probably order a copy from the website, maybe.
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 1: Allegedly.
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 2: It's a conspiracy to keep my book from being published, Rob.
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, I know. I'm behind it all. You are.
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 2: You're a little puppeteer. Yes.
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 1: But you know what book you can go get right now?
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: It's Malcontent, and it's another damn good one. I'm telling
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 1: you guys, Sean is thorough in his research and his conclusions.
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: So go get that on Amazon. Get it off the website.
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: I think it is on your website.
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And, Sean, thanks so much. It's always a pleasure
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 1: having you on, and we look to have you on again.
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, anytime. I appreciate it.
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 3: Yes. It's always fun. Yes, it's been a pleasure meeting
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 3: and talking with you, Sean.
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Safe travels, Joe.
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll need it.
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: Enjoy that.
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 3: I have a history of getting injured on trips.
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 1: Hey, we're in the future. He hasn't taken this trip yet.
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 1: He's already there.
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 3: Oh, yes, I will kind of already be there, but
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 3: I fell off a scooter at Lancer And, like, crushed
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 3: my whole arm, essentially.
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 2: Conspiracy, man. Yeah.
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 3: Someone drove me off the road right before I was
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 3: making my presentation.
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 2: Those damn low nutters. Yeah. That's right.
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 1: All right, so for Joe Borelli, I'm Rob Clark. He's
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: Sean DeGrillo. Support his work. He's doing good stuff. Thank
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 1: you again, and we'll see you next time, folks, here
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 1: on The Lone Gunman. See you.
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 4: Peace.
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 3: Allegedly.
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 1: Allegedly.