Latest / Project Podcast / How to be a project influencer, with APM Trustee Emma Carroll-Walsh

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How to be a project influencer, with APM Trustee Emma Carroll-Walsh · Project Podcast

• 0:08
  Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
• 0:12
  the project profession. My name is Emma Devitra and I'm
• 0:15
  the editor. Of project.
• 0:16
  APM's Quarterly Journal and your host in this podcast I'm
• 0:20
  speaking to Emma. Carol Walsh, Director of
• 0:23
  Customer Programmes at Aqua Consultants and Deputy Chair of
• 0:26
  APM's Built Environment Interest Network, is also an outgoing
• 0:30
  APM. Board Trustee.
• 0:32
  I asked Emma for her top tips on how to be an effective project
• 0:36
  influencer and why it really matters to hone your influencing
• 0:39
  skills. Also, I wanted to find out what
• 0:42
  it's like to step up to being a board trustee and the valuable
• 0:45
  professional and career experience it brings.
• 0:49
  Listen on to find out more in a wide-ranging chat that covers
• 0:52
  everything from. Transferable project skills.
• 0:54
  To how to influence as a young professional.
• 1:06
  So, Emma, thank you so much for finding the time to talk to us.
• 1:10
  Thank you for having me. I wanted to.
• 1:13
  Begin by asking you how long you've served as an APM Board
• 1:16
  trustee. What changes?
• 1:19
  Have you ever seen during your tenure and actually what did you
• 1:22
  hope to achieve and and have you have you achieved those things?
• 1:26
  A tenure on on the board is three years, it's a three-year
• 1:29
  term. So I'm coming to the close of
• 1:31
  that. Personally, I have overseen the
• 1:35
  that the implementation of the new APM website because I took
• 1:39
  on the role as a board champion for that key initiative.
• 1:41
  So that was, that was a great success.
• 1:43
  Uh, when that was rolled out, you know, it's really great to
• 1:46
  be in a position where I could offer my support and guidance to
• 1:50
  the team at the APM running the project for, and it was done for
• 1:54
  the AP Ms 50th year. When I took on the trustee
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  position, I sort of went back to sort of try and remind myself
• 2:00
  what I, I put out there in hoping that people would vote
• 2:04
  for me. And it was that I, I did want to
• 2:07
  have that opportunity to influence the direction APM was
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  going and to ensure that it was fit for purpose going forward
• 2:15
  into the future. So was that the main reason you
• 2:19
  wanted to go for this? Definitely, I'm really
• 2:22
  passionate that the APM continues to represent its
• 2:26
  members and is is forward-looking and future
• 2:30
  looking to see what the trends are and the way their industries
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  are going. I think the other thing that
• 2:36
  really came out for me is I wanted to see it broaden over.
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  I think it's traditional background, if you look at it as
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  predominantly come from the engineering and the construction
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  sectors and project management. A lot of people do project
• 2:48
  management without even thinking about it.
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  So they're quite often called the accidental project manager.
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  But it happens across all sectors that, you know, legal
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  has it definitely in the charitable sector as well.
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  There's loads of sectors that we just weren't covering in enough
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  depth in my view. So that's why I was really
• 3:06
  interested enough to want to take part in that APM board.
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  I feel it's quite an exciting time for the project profession
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  because it seems to be busting out those traditional sectors
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  where where it's obviously been around for a very long time.
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  And like you mentioned, moving into new sectors, but also a
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  sense that you must be interested in bringing in the
• 3:29
  younger generations of project professionals as well.
• 3:32
  Definitely, definitely. So I've I've been really
• 3:34
  fortunate in my career. So I've always been engaged with
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  the project management apprenticeship programme.
• 3:40
  That part of my time was at Rolls Royce and very much
• 3:42
  involved in the recruitment of people into that, that that
• 3:46
  particular scheme. And then I set up the same
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  scheme at the MTC when I went to the manufacturing technology
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  Centre. I just think it's a fabulous way
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  of engaging the younger generation and we've got a
• 3:58
  really good board member who is really passionate as well about
• 4:02
  bringing on the the younger generation and getting them more
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  involved in the board. So really helped, you know,
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  wanting to support her in, in, in doing that development.
• 4:11
  So that was really key for me, definitely.
• 4:14
  What do you think younger project professionals want from
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  the profession and their careers that perhaps older, more
• 4:22
  experienced project professionals don't do or don't
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  think about? How do they do things
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  differently? I would say the Apms relevant to
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  them in the context that we can provide information, guidance,
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  mentoring, coaching as to the different career paths you can
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  take with project management, helping them understand that
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  their skills are transferable, that you're not going to be
• 4:45
  stuck in one industry. I think as a generation they are
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  definitely more amenable to moving from one company to the
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  other. From when I started, you sort of
• 4:54
  started a company and you stayed there for life.
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  I think it's sort of changed a lot since I started my career in
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  project management. So I think that's something that
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  the APM is really relevant with. It's that guidance, that
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  mentoring, that coaching. And also you say about moving
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  within organisations, but moving across sectors as well.
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  Absolutely. Definitely.
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  Which which you've done, we'll talk about that later, but that
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  was something the golden thread pointed out as well, because
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  we're going to need so many more project professionals in the
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  future that there's going to be this great demand and.
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  What it says it? Seems to me that younger people
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  are up for make taking that risk and jumping across sectors and
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  seeing that that's the beauty of the career, that they can take
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  their skills wherever I. Think it is and APMAPM itself
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  are moving forwards. You know, they are looking at
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  the modern social platforms, I mean such as podcasts such as
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  TikTok, you know, they are appearing on those to more
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  engage with the the younger generation.
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  They've certainly done a lot of work revamping the volunteering
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  space to encourage the new interest networks and reforming
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  the branches to encourage new people to join.
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  And we are seeing a lot more of the younger generation entering
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  the volunteering piece as well, because it's volunteering is a
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  great opportunity to network. It's a great opportunity to meet
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  like minded individuals and it's a great opportunity to learn.
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  I mean, part of me personally, I, I still mentor and I love
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  doing the mentoring because I learn just as much from the
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  mentee, hopefully as a mentee learns from me and it keeps me
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  relevant and grounded. And I think that's really
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  important. What have you learnt from
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  mentoring younger people about the way they see the world or
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  the way they like to do things? It's interesting to hear the
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  challenges they face that in some instances it hasn't really
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  changed from maybe the challenges that I faced early on
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  in my career. So getting your voice heard,
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  being able to do that, influencing when you're not at
• 6:58
  that level of position that you know, automatically brings a
• 7:02
  certain level of influence you can have without being able to
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  influence, if you see what I mean.
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  Sort of authority, authority. Thank you.
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  That's the right word. Before you go on, what are your
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  tips for someone who's early on in their career and wants to
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  have their voice heard? My guidance is always the same
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  is that if you're going into a meeting is you need to go in
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  with what are the 3-4 key bullets, key messages that you
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  actually want to get over and have those really clear and
• 7:31
  tested before you go in and the other pieces.
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  I always say that actually, do you understand who you're trying
• 7:37
  to influence in that meeting and how they operate?
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  So do you understand how they like that message to be given to
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  them? So are they an individual that
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  likes really clear, concise? So for example, I am very much
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  of a person that says if you can give me a picture over words
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  that that works for me every single time.
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  But there are others that I would want chapter and verse,
• 8:00
  might want a report upfront ahead of the meeting so they
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  have time to digest it and think about it before coming into that
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  session. So really get to know who your
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  stakeholders are, who the key decision maker is going to be
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  and how is it they like to receive that information.
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  Because actually, if you can get them and engage them ahead of
• 8:18
  the meeting and present it in that way that they like, the
• 8:21
  chances are you're going to actually have a much better
• 8:23
  outcome. What have you enjoyed about
• 8:27
  being on the board? How did you find the experience?
• 8:29
  Was it, was it how you expected, was it different?
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  And what skills have you learnt that you need to have to be a
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  good kind of board member or or trustee?
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  Firstly, all I can say is I've absolutely loved working on the
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  board. I work with a brilliant group of
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  people. They've got really diverse
• 8:51
  working backgrounds as well. So it's really sort of
• 8:55
  interesting to hear the value that they bring and, and that
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  diversity that and, and I think that diversity is really
• 9:02
  important and it's diversity of working background that I want
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  to stress here and it prevents groupthink, which I think is
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  fantastic. So that's the last thing you
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  need is, is, is groupthink going on.
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  But we do work to a common sense, common set of principles
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  and we are guided very much by the Charity Commission
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  guidelines, but we can bring very different viewpoints and
• 9:24
  values to the board, which I think is really important.
• 9:27
  And I guess you're getting an insight, aren't you, into other
• 9:30
  people's worlds? Definitely, definitely.
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  And that that is is really, really interesting.
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  And for me, a real positive is I've got to work with the
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  leadership team from the APM. It's definitely opened my eyes
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  to the level of, of, of passion that they've got.
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  And they are desperate to ensure that APM succeeds.
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  And, and I think that's wonderful.
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  So, you know, it's really easy to look from the outside and
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  critique at any organisation. We're all very, you know, we're
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  all very capable of being critical, but actually when you
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  get to work with the teams and the people and you see how hard
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  they work and how dedicated they are, it's and the fact that I
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  think they offer a really great service to the project
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  management community. So that's been that's been a
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  real positive for me. What about the skills you need
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  to do the job well? To be a good trustee, so I would
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  say you need to have good listening skills, definitely
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  good listening skills. You need to have a level of
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  attention to detail as well because there's a lot of
• 10:41
  information for you to take in. But don't be daunted by that
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  because you do get a really good induction onto the board.
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  You get in depth training on taking on the role of the
• 10:52
  trustee. Mike Robinson, who's the company
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  secretary is totally supportive, answers any query no matter how
• 10:59
  small it is. You also get appointed a trustee
• 11:03
  buddy to sort of help you and sort of guide you on your way,
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  which is fantastic. And then you obviously get time
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  with the chair who currently is Miller and obviously with the
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  CEO Adam Bodison. So that's really good to have
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  that sort of one-on-one with those individuals as well.
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  But I think then back to the skill piece, you do need to be
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  able to challenge in a respectful way as well.
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  So you know you are there to hold APM to account.
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  So you do need to have that, that skill, definitely.
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  I have interviewed many senior women in business over my career
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  and sometimes, maybe often in the past and less often now, you
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  experience mansplaining or at very senior levels or being
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  ignored, or you raise a point and then a man raises the point
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  that you've just made and everyone listens and
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  congratulates him on a great point.
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  I'm not saying this happens all the time at all, but have you
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  ever been in that situation and how have you handled it or how
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  did you wish you'd handled? It so I have have a long enough
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  career where I have actually experienced.
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  So a really good example is pay where I I had my pay was
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  significantly less than my male counterparts.
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  How did you find that out? So hopefully the EU put out a
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  ruling at the time that said you had a right to see where your
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  salary was in comparison to your peers.
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  So I asked for that, and after about six weeks of trying to
• 12:46
  tell me that I didn't need to see it, they finally gave it to
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  me and they showed me the bell curve and I was significantly
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  under the bottom of the bell curve.
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  How did you feel? Well, a bit of grieved, if I'm
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  honest. Yeah.
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  A. Bit shocked.
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  Yeah, a bit shocked. I'd have an explanation that
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  apparently because my peers were all engineers and I was a
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  project professional, even though we're all doing the same
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  job, that counted for more. So and then they decided against
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  that and then paid me appropriately, which was good.
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  So I have had that. If you suspect something like
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  that, then it pays to ask and find out, and there's no harming
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  asking. And then you should do something
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  about it. Yes, obviously it works out well
• 13:32
  for you. I imagine they were probably
• 13:34
  quite awkward or difficult conversations to have.
• 13:37
  They are difficult conversations, but at the end of
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  the day, and and this is something I do catch all my
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  mentees, it said your career is down to you to a lot of extent.
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  You know, you can't sit there waiting to be noticed.
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  You have to put the effort in to do sell yourself and you do have
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  to do and it can be exhausting, but you've got to be able to.
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  So I'm always there saying, look, when you've when you've
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  done something and someone's given, you know, if they give
• 14:06
  you some feedback that says it was a really good job that you
• 14:08
  did there, save that, document it, get it in your evidence pack
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  because that's what you need to. You know, when you next have
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  your conversation about where your career is going with your
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  line manager, your one to one-on-one, you can then bring
• 14:20
  all this stuff out and says, actually, I think I'm ready for
• 14:22
  the next level because of, and here's all my evidence.
• 14:25
  So you know, you've got to really it, it's down to you as
• 14:29
  an individual to, to gather that evidence and to push yourself
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  forward. Definitely.
• 14:34
  That is brilliant advice. That's such brilliant advice.
• 14:37
  OK. Did you, did you want me to give
• 14:40
  say what I think about mansplaining and.
• 14:43
  I'd love you to tell yes. I'd love you to tell me about
• 14:46
  mansplaining and. So, so when I'm in meetings and
• 14:51
  say somebody has made a point, so let's call them Joe blogs,
• 14:55
  for example, I will say, oh, I'd like to build on Joe's blogs
• 15:01
  point. I think it's really effective
• 15:02
  that he's made. But actually I think we should
• 15:03
  take this this way. So if you start using that,
• 15:07
  you're quite often start to see people mirror in the meetings
• 15:11
  and then you'll get, Oh, Emma's, you know, I really like that
• 15:14
  point that Emma's made. So just if you start bringing
• 15:18
  that language in, quite often people will start mirroring it
• 15:22
  in the meeting. So don't be afraid to do that.
• 15:25
  Likewise, I have said in in meetings before I have brought
• 15:30
  people to attention. Maybe it's because I'm so long
• 15:33
  in the tooth now, but I just sort of say, you know, if
• 15:35
  someone that if I've made a point and then someone else then
• 15:39
  like 2 minutes later decides that they're going to make the
• 15:42
  same point and I'll go. I'm so glad you agreed with what
• 15:45
  I said. Thank you so much for backing me
• 15:47
  up. You're not being rude, you're
• 15:49
  not being aggressive. All you're just saying is
• 15:51
  actually reminding people in the meeting that actually that came
• 15:55
  from you. We're APM, the only chartered
• 16:04
  membership organisation for the project profession.
• 16:08
  When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and
• 16:11
  support you need to make an impact, delivering better
• 16:13
  projects with better outcomes. Plus, you'll access exclusive
• 16:17
  training and benefits to support your ongoing career development.
• 16:21
  Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting
• 16:24
  apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed,
• 16:29
  society benefits. Is becoming a board trustee a
• 16:34
  good way for underrepresented groups within a profession to
• 16:38
  represent their views at a very senior level?
• 16:41
  Definitely, I think it is and I think because you're all there
• 16:44
  with the same same principles really, which is obviously it
• 16:48
  hold APM to account, but also to develop APM and support.
• 16:54
  I do think it is a a really good way of doing it.
• 16:57
  So we've got one of our board members who is very young in
• 17:00
  their career and they do, you know, they have, their voice is
• 17:05
  absolutely listened to with equality across the board.
• 17:09
  And I think that's great. And we've got others that have
• 17:13
  neurodiversity as well. So again, it's, it's, it's great
• 17:18
  that we've managed to sometimes adjust because we have some of
• 17:22
  our meetings are face to face and some of them are online.
• 17:25
  And it can be quite difficult to, I guess, do that
• 17:28
  concentration online. And people, particularly with
• 17:33
  some maybe neurodiversity as well, asking for those regular
• 17:36
  breaks to be put in and accommodated.
• 17:39
  And it's just, yeah, it's just great because it, it gets you as
• 17:43
  an individual as well to see things from a different
• 17:45
  perspective, which is always, always healthy.
• 17:48
  I think it's great for for your career progression as well to
• 17:53
  sort of because it shows that you're passionate about the
• 17:56
  profession that you're in and you're willing to do more than
• 17:58
  just your today job. And that will always be looked
• 18:01
  unfavourably by employers, definitely.
• 18:04
  How much of A time commitment is it?
• 18:07
  Was it more than you expected? I think.
• 18:09
  It was a bit more because you do need to be diligent in reading
• 18:12
  through the board packs and the board packs can be quite meaty.
• 18:16
  How many pages are we talking? About 150 usually.
• 18:19
  And you know, you do need to read them, you do need to
• 18:22
  question them. You you need to be prepared.
• 18:26
  Some of them are for information only, which is to be noted, and
• 18:29
  that's absolutely fine, but you can still query things.
• 18:31
  Then there are others where we've actually got to make a
• 18:33
  decision and vote. So again, you do need to be well
• 18:36
  prepared for that. So it isn't just about attending
• 18:40
  the meetings, it is about that preparation time as well.
• 18:45
  So I think that needs to be really clear.
• 18:47
  And obviously you need to ensure that your company or your own
• 18:50
  private or your own personal time can definitely accommodate
• 18:52
  that. And then, you know, you will be
• 18:54
  absolutely encouraged to take on champion roles as and when
• 18:58
  required. So as board champions, you know,
• 19:00
  like I took on the website as I mentioned earlier.
• 19:03
  So yeah, do think carefully about the time time.
• 19:06
  Commitment to pick up on the topic we talked about earlier
• 19:09
  around influencing. How do you use your influencing
• 19:13
  skills to bring about positive change as a trustee?
• 19:18
  I do feel that I am able to clearly articulate my views.
• 19:24
  I strive to get across definitely what success would
• 19:27
  look like and I always try and bring that into the
• 19:31
  conversation. If I'm honest, being a trustee
• 19:34
  is relatively easy to influence when you're there to ensure,
• 19:39
  because you're, you're there to ensure the board, as the board
• 19:42
  that you're supporting APM delivering its commitments.
• 19:45
  You've been brought on to be listened to and for your view,
• 19:49
  so you'd expect to be listened to and to be able to have the
• 19:52
  same matters. What about if you're not in a
• 19:55
  privileged position to be on a board?
• 19:57
  What what kind of other tips would you have about being a a
• 20:02
  capable influencer and and how important is that to the success
• 20:07
  of a project? Any advice you'd pass on?
• 20:10
  Honesty is, is always is, is just a key thing really, you
• 20:14
  know, whoever you're trying to work with or whoever you're
• 20:16
  trying to influence rather you, you've got to understand what
• 20:19
  success looks like for them and, and back to the piece we've
• 20:23
  already discussed around tailoring your messaging to suit
• 20:26
  because obviously you, you want to show that actually what
• 20:29
  you're going to do is going to help them achieve what they're
• 20:31
  looking for. So their outcomes, whatever
• 20:34
  their success measures are looking at how they again, back
• 20:39
  to what is their preferred communication method.
• 20:41
  So ensure, so you ensure that your message meets that and, and
• 20:45
  just be genuine and yourself. Because you know, at the end of
• 20:49
  the day, we, I can't remember is it's not 80% you get from body
• 20:52
  language. People will read you like a
• 20:55
  book. And if they don't think you're
• 20:56
  being genuine and honest, the chances of you having any
• 20:59
  influence in that space is pretty, pretty low.
• 21:03
  Your career, you've switched sectors and it seems to me that
• 21:08
  that's something that the profession wants to encourage
• 21:12
  project professionals to do because there's demand
• 21:14
  everywhere and project management is exploding in into
• 21:17
  non traditional sectors. What was it like for you jumping
• 21:21
  from, correct me if I'm wrong, from manufacturing into the
• 21:25
  water industry, which is where you are now?
• 21:27
  What? What?
• 21:28
  Why did you decide to make the jump and how easy was it to
• 21:32
  switch sectors? I had a career of nearly 30
• 21:35
  years in Rolls Royce, which was aerospace and manufacturing.
• 21:39
  It was quite daunting leaving a company after that length of
• 21:42
  time, but I went into the manufacturing technology centre.
• 21:45
  So again, sort of understanding my manufacturing knowledge was
• 21:50
  fine, I could carry that across. But actually it made me realise
• 21:55
  even more that it was my project management skills.
• 21:58
  They, they don't change. You might use a different
• 22:01
  project management system or it might be a, a different planning
• 22:04
  tool, but on the whole, you're predominantly, your skills are
• 22:08
  exactly the same from from what one sector to another.
• 22:11
  So it's learning the language of the sector.
• 22:14
  You would do that for me anyway. You would do that no matter what
• 22:18
  job you were going to, you would do the research to learn about
• 22:22
  the sector, about the company you were going to.
• 22:25
  So it's about that preparedness. Again, if you're a project
• 22:29
  manager, you'd know that actually for projects to
• 22:32
  succeed, it's all in the planning element, doing as much
• 22:35
  of planning and upsight work that you can do as possible.
• 22:38
  And that's exactly the same in your career.
• 22:39
  So if you're going to make that jump, just make the time to go
• 22:43
  and read round the subject, you know, So going from
• 22:47
  manufacturing to the water sector, it was just
• 22:49
  understanding what the language is, learning that the acronyms
• 22:52
  that you thought you knew acronyms to suddenly have
• 22:55
  different meanings to them within the different sector.
• 22:59
  But I've really loved change in the respect that even I was a
• 23:04
  Rolls Royce for 30 years. I moved around from like the
• 23:07
  energy business to the aerospace, the submarines.
• 23:10
  So I've always loved that challenge of learning, but
• 23:13
  taking your core skills and project management with you.
• 23:16
  So that's why I think it's just the best profession ever because
• 23:19
  it enables you to move around all of the sectors.
• 23:22
  Do you think project professionals need to be more
• 23:24
  confident about the transferability of their skills?
• 23:27
  I think people feel a bit stuck in their kind of siloed sector.
• 23:31
  Do you think there needs to be a greater confidence or ambition
• 23:34
  that you that it's fine, you will have to be, You're not
• 23:37
  starting out from scratch again, but you are working within a new
• 23:40
  in a completely new sector that you like.
• 23:42
  You say you have to learn the language and that can maybe put
• 23:45
  people off. Will be a bit daunting.
• 23:47
  It can be daunting and I think this definitely will hold some
• 23:51
  people back thinking, well, I've got no 20-30 years maybe in the
• 23:54
  rail industry. Could I move into something like
• 23:57
  the water industry? And the, and the answer is, is
• 24:00
  definitely yes. I've noticed as well that in
• 24:05
  it's sometimes sectors of we have, but we want some more like
• 24:08
  sort of 10 years experience in this sector and you're like, but
• 24:12
  why tell me why or because they'll understand language that
• 24:17
  have worked with the site, the supply chain etcetera.
• 24:20
  But if you take someone from the rail industry, they
• 24:23
  predominantly work down a very almost like the same parallels.
• 24:26
  So they're working with the same contractual terms, they're
• 24:29
  working with the same types of supply as in the contacts of the
• 24:34
  contractors etcetera. So it's just a case of got a new
• 24:38
  use the new language and actually where it's so
• 24:41
  competitive, it's so it's the demand is so much.
• 24:44
  You can't just keep getting people from the water sector.
• 24:48
  You need to start bringing people across from what I'd say
• 24:52
  almost like our parallel sectors and pulling them in.
• 24:55
  And actually when you know, we've had that conversation and
• 24:57
  we've managed to do that, they've been really appreciative
• 25:00
  of it and actually, Oh yes, OK, that's that works really well.
• 25:03
  So I think employers as well need to wake up to the fact that
• 25:07
  actually taking someone from comparable or sort of parallel
• 25:11
  sectors is really valuable because they they are really
• 25:16
  good skills and they just transfer across.
• 25:18
  So I think it works both ways. As an employee, you've got to
• 25:21
  have the coach to make that jump, but do your research.
• 25:24
  And as an employer, you need to have the coach to actually pull
• 25:27
  people across and actually you will get you will grow your
• 25:31
  talent pool, which is what you need just.
• 25:33
  Wanted to give you an opportunity to pass on any
• 25:36
  career or project lessons. Definitely keep up to date with
• 25:41
  current thinking. User organisations such as APM
• 25:45
  got great networking events, got subject webinars, loads of
• 25:49
  project management articles out on the web as well.
• 25:52
  So absolutely keep up to date with current thinking.
• 25:56
  And and in Project magazine just.
• 25:58
  Oh, yeah. Sorry.
• 25:58
  Yes, yes, yeah, definitely. But in short, you've got to keep
• 26:04
  abreast of what's going on in the profession because you've
• 26:07
  got to pick up and learn the new ways of working and thinking and
• 26:10
  any language shifts that are going on as well.
• 26:13
  So just keep up to date. I mean you should be doing it
• 26:15
  anyway. If you're a member of APM, it is
• 26:18
  incumbent on you to do your continued professional
• 26:21
  development and and this is a really key way of of doing that.
• 26:25
  It's been a pleasure talking to you.
• 26:26
  Thanks for sharing your insights not only into your crib but also
• 26:30
  being a a trustee. Any last things you wanted to
• 26:34
  add? Even if you've had sort of, oh,
• 26:37
  might quite fancy being a trustee, really just put
• 26:40
  yourself out there. Go for it.
• 26:43
  It's just such a fantastic opportunity.
• 26:47
  It's so insightful looking at how APM are running, how you can
• 26:52
  help guide them. I just can't.
• 26:55
  I can't express enough how much people should just have a go.
• 26:59
  It's just great. Well, that's the perfect way to
• 27:02
  end the podcast, I think. It just leaves me to say thank
• 27:04
  you again and it's been an absolute pleasure talking to
• 27:07
  you. Thank you, Emma.
• 27:17
  Thanks again to Emma for joining us and to you for listening to
• 27:20
  the APM Podcast. APM members who would like to
• 27:23
  serve as a trustee have until 5:00 PM on Wednesday, the 4th of
• 27:26
  September to nominate themselves.
• 27:29
  This year's ballot will see three new trustees elected.
• 27:32
  For more information, see the link in the episode.
• 27:34
  Description. Don't forget.
• 27:36
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• 27:38
  To rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts.
• 27:41
  We'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback and
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  suggestions by emailing us at APM Podcast at thinkpublishing
• 27:49
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• 27:51
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• 27:57
  This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body
• 28:00
  for the project profession. For more information on APM,
• 28:03
  visit APM. Dot org.uk.