Latest / North Meets South Web Podcast / The one about onboarding junior developers

Transcript

The one about onboarding junior developers · North Meets South Web Podcast

• 0:00
  Michael: Hi. I'm Michael Dyrynda.
• 0:01
  Jake: And I'm Jake Bennett.
• 0:03
  Michael: And welcome to episode 155 of the North Meet South Web podcast.
• 0:11
  Jake: Hey, everybody. How's it going? I am back in town. Last week, when we were recording the Laravel News podcast, I was at a conference in Chicago, Chi Town, and, I got to hang out with some fun folks. TJ Miller was there, which was really cool.
• 0:25
  And Jason McCreary, that was a good time. And then Joel Clermont and Aaron Saray, which are 2 dudes from No Compromises, which was fun. Yeah. It was a good time. It's a good fun a good time.
• 0:36
  Met some other, Laravel devs there and, got to give the state machines talk version 2. Not a whole lot changed. A couple little couple little things here and there. Got to hear TJ Miller talk about his AI sparkle and shine stuff. And I finally understand what it is now, which is really fun.
• 0:54
  So we can talk about it a little bit on the show, but glad to be home. To be back. And, if you're watching this live, you will know that there's a happy birthday banner behind me. And, this happens quite often. In fact, it's sort of a running joke now on the show.
• 1:08
  It's
• 1:08
  Michael: a running gag.
• 1:09
  Jake: Michael It
• 1:09
  Michael: feels like there's always a happy birthday banner there, which is obviously not the case. But, I think there's a period through, like, May, June where you've got a few birthdays, like your birthday, your Harrison's birthday, and then there's, like, obviously one now. And then there's a few more later in the year. Yeah.
• 1:24
  Jake: That's right. Yep. So Lyndon Lyndon has her birthday right now, and then it's my birthday and then Harrison's birthday, all within a pretty short period of time. So, yes, it's it all kind of falls in the same area there. And so, yeah, it's it's fun.
• 1:38
  It's kind of the birthday section of the year. And so, yeah, we're celebrating celebrating my daughter's 11th birthday today, so that's really cool. Super fun. And that was a it was a good day for her. So, yep, we got the birthday banner up.
• 1:50
  It's kind of cool. Like, we have the same birthday banner that we've had for forever. Like, I think we've had this since my one kid. It's just tiny. And then we actually have a birthday plate too that we have that we always eat.
• 1:59
  Yeah. It's a plate, that we always eat. Whatever they whoever whoever has, you know, it's their birthday, they eat their cake off that plate. It's just a happy birthday plate. Boar made it when our kids were like, I think Graham was 2.
• 2:13
  And so, yeah. Yeah. It's a fun fun little tradition. It's good times.
• 2:17
  Michael: What, what kind of cake? Very important question.
• 2:20
  Jake: So today, it was a bundt cake. There is this bundt cake. There was a, there's a place in town called Nothing Bundt Cakes. That's the The most there is. That's the yep.
• 2:32
  That's the name of it. And they make bundt cakes, and they're super good. And I don't know if you've ever had a if you've never had a bundt cake, it's sort of like a shaped cake. I don't know. It's like you have this little mold.
• 2:41
  They put it in there, and they flip it upside down, and it pops up. It's like
• 2:43
  Michael: a jello mould. Right?
• 2:45
  Jake: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think, that we had 2 different flavors. We had, like, vanilla, and then there was, like, blueberry lemon, which is really good.
• 2:50
  So yeah. And then it it was it was just it's fun. It was a it's a busy day today because, yeah, the kids are, in a play this time of year. And so they're all practicing until, like, late late this week, like 8:30, 9 o'clock. And the the the show is on Friday.
• 3:07
  So, yeah, we didn't get to do any dessert stuff until late today, but it was fun. It was a good day. So
• 3:12
  Michael: It's very cool.
• 3:12
  Jake: My friend? How was your day? What'd you guys do today?
• 3:15
  Michael: How well the Eli's back at school this week. So we he was a bit, he was a bit nervous about going back, which, you know, after 2 weeks off and and not seeing everyone and kind of just hanging out. And, and I don't know, it was, you know, Monday night, he was a bit nervous, but Tuesday, it was, like, quarter to 7. It's like, can we go to school now? Can we go to school now?
• 3:32
  Is it time
• 3:33
  Jake: to go?
• 3:33
  Michael: Like, for an hour and a half. And we got to school when he was a bit he was a bit nervous because he was waiting for his friends to turn up. We got there early because, you know, he'd been wanting to go for an hour and a half. And, yeah, once his friend stood up, it was like, see you later. Let's not even see you later.
• 3:46
  Dad just got up and left.
• 3:47
  Jake: Just by just left. Yeah. That's fine. No warm up period needed. Just running off playing with the boys.
• 3:52
  Michael: Soon as the friend's there, he's out. So which is like, you know, I kinda feel bad because it's like, hey. I wanna give him a hug. Let's just send him off to school. But at the same time, it's like, he's he's gone.
• 4:02
  You don't wanna embarrass me. Exactly. Come back and give me a hug, man.
• 4:05
  Jake: For sure. For
• 4:06
  Michael: sure. Yeah. But he he was definitely tied out by it because, you know, he got into that angry, cranky, tired
• 4:13
  Jake: Mhmm.
• 4:13
  Michael: Face last night, like, just yelling. It's like, alright. Okay. We gotta just work through this. We can make it to bedtime.
• 4:20
  And by the time he gets to bed, he's alright. Just a big big sweetheart there. Raise his stories, has his cuddles, and and off he goes. So, yeah, it's a it's
• 4:27
  Jake: a good fun times.
• 4:29
  Michael: But, yeah, we And then you're also, go ahead. Yeah. They had a pupil free day on Monday, so, I had the day off to to look after the kids Monday. Kept kept coming home from childcare as well. We went bowling and and had a bit of fun there sort of brushing up on on my bowling, getting ready for Aragon.
• 4:48
  Jake: Did you bowl with the bumpers, Michael? Did you put the bumpers up?
• 4:51
  Michael: With the bumpers. Yeah. A 100%.
• 4:52
  Jake: Yeah. Did They're
• 4:53
  Michael: like, do you want do
• 4:54
  Jake: you want the bumpers,
• 4:55
  Michael: you know, for all
• 4:55
  Jake: the kids? And I was like, yeah. Yeah. I was like, no.
• 4:55
  Michael: It's fine. I, I I don't I don't bowl into the bumpers. The kids it's they use, like, you know, the the rail, the the ramp that you can roll the ball down. Right. Because after, you know, know, after 5 or 6 games, the ball gets a bit heavy, so they're not throwing it anymore.
• 5:14
  But it, like, it doesn't take much. Because when the ball slides down that ramp, it kind of wobbles, and so the ball doesn't go where you aim it anyway. But it's like, it doesn't take much movement for that ball to just To go to the rim over. Into the bumpers. So
• 5:29
  Jake: Yes.
• 5:30
  Michael: Yeah. It got to the end, and, like, I had been bowling as I've been bowling, and it got towards the end. I was I I gained a bit of a lead on the kids, and I was like, nah. It's gonna, like but you can't throw gunner balls when the bumpers are up, so I'm just, like, trying to get it straight
• 5:43
  Jake: down to the side. To avoid hitting
• 5:44
  Michael: the pins. But I think the lane that we were on was a bit dodgy as well because there was, like, 4 or 5 times where I bowled and I, like, took 2 pins out. And I gotta gotta have my second bowl so I can send the bowl back down the lane. And, it's it's like you bowled a strike. I'm like, I absolutely did not did not bowled a strike.
• 6:04
  Jake: Took 2 pins out tops.
• 6:06
  Michael: So, yeah, me funny. Eli's like, who won? Who won? I'm like, Liv won this one. You know?
• 6:10
  She Liv won, buddy. Ahead of don't don't worry about dad's squad. Dad's just here for and, you know, I got Just
• 6:15
  Jake: for practice.
• 6:16
  Michael: 7th frame. And I was like, you kids can just throw the ball down the line an extra couple of goes because they're like, we wanna go. I wanna go because there's the arcade, so they gotta go play the arcade as well.
• 6:25
  Jake: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Bowling alleys all have to have arcades.
• 6:29
  Michael: Yeah. Yeah. It's like the thing. The tap and go like the recharge card to go into and it's just like, oh, yes. Disappears so quickly.
• 6:34
  Oh, my word. So fast. Game and the games don't last very long with a 3 year old and a 5 year old. So
• 6:41
  Jake: whatever happened to the quarter game days. Right? I mean, that was it. That was the golden era of video games. I was thinking back, do you remember because
• 6:49
  Michael: the allies are not making the money on these things. It has to go back to the, like, whoever operates the machines.
• 6:55
  Jake: Yeah. And typically, like, on the machine where you give the where you put the money in, there'll be like, hey. If you were if you need any help, call this number or whatever. Yeah.
• 7:01
  Michael: Definitely not cool to venue.
• 7:03
  Jake: Yeah. Pro tip. I, actually, we were in Florida. There was a little arcade like that at the hotel we were staying at, and it was my son's birthday. And so I called them on the thing, and I was like, hey.
• 7:14
  Do you guys do anything for birthdays? They're like, like, what? I was like, do you guys give away, like, free tokens or anything for birthdays? They're like, we don't usually. I was like, well, I've got a kid turning, like, 5.
• 7:26
  I was like, do you guys, like, wanna, like, give any free games or anything? The guy's like, you already have a card? I was like, yeah. He's like, what's the number? I gave it I read it to him.
• 7:34
  He's like, alright. Happy birthday. I was like, went to the machine, put it he put $50 on there.
• 7:39
  Michael: That's pretty good.
• 7:40
  Jake: $50. I was like, no way. And so Harrison had a heyday. It was crazy. He was playing every game, didn't look at any of the number, you know, how many tokens.
• 7:48
  They just put every game was awesome.
• 7:49
  Michael: It's pretty good. Yeah. It's nice. Like, all you have to do is ask like people. Exactly.
• 7:53
  We, you know, we've seen this around the community for ages. This is this is what this other spin off podcast of mine is. It's all about, you know, putting yourself out there. Just ask the questions.
• 8:01
  Jake: Yep.
• 8:01
  Michael: The worst they can say is no.
• 8:03
  Jake: But Yeah. Exactly. I was
• 8:04
  Michael: even listening. Give you $50 worth of tokens, you know?
• 8:07
  Jake: Totally. I was listening to James Brooks, happy dev season 2, which I love that podcast. It's really fun. And, he said that that's how he got the job working for Laravel, is he Taylor posted the Forbes job, and he said, sounds great. I'll take it.
• 8:22
  Michael: I love that.
• 8:22
  Jake: Yeah. I'll take the job. No. I'm sorry. Alright.
• 8:26
  Sounds good. So funny. But, yeah, he he said that same thing. He's like, if you don't ask, you don't get. Like, it's like, just ask.
• 8:33
  And so sometimes, yeah, the worst they can say is no. Worst they can say is no. I was going to say, do you remember I mean, I don't know how long ago it was when you were bowling when you were a kid, you know, but I remember when we would get bumpers, they would have this big blue inflatable, like, thing that they'd put in the bumper or put in the put in the gutter, and they'd blow it up, and it would, like, roll all the way down the lane. That was, like, the earliest bumper things that they had. It was there was, like, it wasn't, like, a rail that came up on the side to, like, bump off of.
• 9:00
  It was literally, like, an inflated isn't that crazy? But I remember I remember that being chased.
• 9:04
  Michael: The first time I ever went bowling would I would have been, like, 10 or 11. And it was definitely like the rail that came out. It was not no no inflatable snake
• 9:13
  Jake: or anything. It was like it was like an air mattress. You know what I mean? But it was like it was it was like a long blue inflatable tube that would go down the gutter. It was hilarious.
• 9:21
  And so it just kinda like lazily bounced off this thing, you know, like, it was it was ridiculous. So
• 9:28
  Michael: You don't wanna hear that either. That'll impact the the velocity
• 9:31
  Jake: as well. Yes. It did. It would. And,
• 9:35
  Michael: motion?
• 9:36
  Jake: Yep. You didn't care because I was 4, 5, you know, at the time, but good times. Hey. Anyway, I was gonna say also you've got some, Laracon stuff that you're prepping for as well, cooking up over on the Laracon AU Kitchen. What you got going on over on that side?
• 9:51
  Michael: Yeah. So we we we put a teaser out last week, I think of some of the branding that we're doing. So we're not doing the the brown and yellow you you the cash money has seen some bits and pieces of of Mhmm. The direction we're taking it. The the website is done now.
• 10:08
  I was wiring it all up to all of our, like, convert kit and, you know, just redoing that because we redesigned it. So I had to rewire up all of the speaker submission and the sponsorship stuff last night and just going through all the content and things like that just to make sure that, you know, there's no typos, and and we're covering everything off. So the the website is done. We'll be just going through bits and pieces now, but we're just putting the the finishing touches in finishing touches on what the the marketing plan is for that. So we will after we finish recording this, I've got some bits and pieces that I need to film, and we will we'll be doing, like, a little announcement, later today for for
• 10:52
  Jake: Pretty awesome.
• 10:52
  Michael: For for more details. So by the time this this episode is out, you you will have already seen it probably. But, yeah. So we've got 2 weeks left.
• 11:02
  Jake: Do you feel ahead of schedule from where you usually are? Like, do you feel good? I know you started, like, prepping for 2024, 4, like, as soon as 2023 was done. So it feels like Yeah. You guys are killing
• 11:12
  Michael: it. Every like, everything in terms of, like, the the behind the scenes stuff is ready. You know, the venue's organized. The hotel's organized. We've got like, the hotel for speakers is organized.
• 11:22
  We've organized all of the venues for networking and after dark and all that kind of stuff. Like, all of that is locked away now. So, really, the only thing left now is obviously to to select the speakers and to to launch the website and put tickets on sale, which I feel like we're a little bit behind on only because, like, as we were kind of planning when I say we, like myself and Nucleus, the the agency that's that's doing all of the branding for us, we we kind of got to a point where we we found that, like, it's it's there's too much information that we need to to publish this year to make it a one pager, you know, to communicate everything that we wanna communicate. So it took a little bit longer to kind of figure out what those extra pages look like and and put all of that information together. So we're in a good spot.
• 12:09
  We're we're a little bit behind where we had planned to be at the start of the year in terms of, scheduling, but, I think I think we'll be okay. You know, we'll we'll I think we're about a week behind at the moment, which is not not too bad. Not too bad. Not bad.
• 12:22
  Jake: Not bad. Yeah. So you have a good time to catch up.
• 12:26
  Michael: I've got the the marketing bit to to do today, just as, like, a little get ready, keep your eyes keep your eyes peeled kind of video, and then we will have, like, a proper announcement video and website launch and all of the email stuff going out.
• 12:43
  Jake: Will you show all the branding, like, when you do that big launch thing? Sweet.
• 12:47
  Michael: Okay. Cool. This would be all all the full branding that that we've been working on in secret for the last
• 12:52
  Jake: 2 I'm hoping 3 months. I'm secretly hoping you guys open up a Laracon AU store just for a bit for, in case I'm not able to make it, which not gonna be able to. But, it would be amazing if I could buy a t shirt. I know it's gonna be expensive for shipping, but I'll pay it. I'll pay it.
• 13:10
  I've seen I've seen enough of the branding to know I want a shirt. And so very cool, very cool stuff.
• 13:16
  Michael: We entertained the idea last year, and we kind of it's we kind of landed on, you know, it's it's a you've got to be in the room where it happened kind of situation. We're like, you know, we can sell it. It diminishes. Yeah. It diminishes the
• 13:30
  Jake: It does.
• 13:31
  Michael: The value of it. But, I'll I'll look after you. That's okay.
• 13:35
  Jake: It's the exclusivity thing. Right? Like, the supply and demand. Yeah. That sort of deal.
• 13:40
  I get that. I get that totally. But anyway, yeah, really excited for, like, the branding stuff. I I know that, like like I said, the stuff that I've seen is just incredible. It's hard to get that stuff right.
• 13:49
  You know what I mean? There's so many different directions you could go, and it's like you really have to and sometimes it comes down to, like, making a brave choice. It's like, do I do just, like, the standard fare? Like, this looks very conferency, or do I do something a little bit more edgy, but I sort of, you know, like, a little bit more risk? And so, man, I I'm really excited.
• 14:07
  I think it's turning out super cool. So excited for everybody else to be able to see it in the next couple of weeks here too.
• 14:13
  Michael: It it will be interesting. Like, I think it I think where we have landed, it's it's gonna be great. Initially, we kind of I didn't know quite what it was with with this idea. And so we initially knocked it back, but Nucleus came back and was like, we've got we've got some ideas. So they went back and did the 2nd second round of refinement.
• 14:35
  And we're like, here is how we're gonna kind of explore and expand the brand. And the way that we're looking at it is to have, like, the Laracon Australia brand as something that kind of fits in with Laracon EU and Laracon US to kind of make that recognizable as a Laracon. And then, we will then have our own identity, which would be the kind of thing that we want to live on, and we'll grow it year to year. So we don't have to do a full full scale branding exercise every 12 months, which is Yeah. A lot of work.
• 15:07
  So,
• 15:09
  Jake: I think that's a great idea, honestly.
• 15:10
  Michael: We were we were very full colour last year. In terms of, like, everything was we used all the colours.
• 15:17
  Jake: Yeah, really colourful.
• 15:18
  Michael: Yep. Back here. Yep. This year, we we've toned it down a little bit, but I think it's still gonna be pretty pretty snazzy. So we've got some great ideas to to work on and and, expand, you know, not only this year, but it needs to come as well.
• 15:32
  So see how that goes.
• 15:33
  Jake: Yeah.
• 15:33
  Michael: Taylor Taylor initially didn't like this idea either, but, I said that we're we're gonna we're gonna go ahead with it anyway. So
• 15:39
  Jake: Yep. Yep. I mean, you know, like you said, like, sometimes you just gotta kinda put it out there and see what happens. And so it'll be good. I'm really excited for it.
• 15:46
  I think it's I think it looks great. So that's fun. I was going to say, we're we're probably about halfway through here, so I thought I'd let you know kind of what I've been working on recently. We hired a brand new junior junior junior junior junior junior junior developer.
• 16:00
  Michael: Straight out of boot camp?
• 16:02
  Jake: Straight out of not even boot camp, straight out of college, which is even harder because, you know, you come out learning knowing c sharp or something, and that's
• 16:10
  Michael: that's it.
• 16:10
  Jake: So, but he's a quick learner. And, so, you know, I was listening to, Daniel and, Caleb talk about stuff, and Daniel was just talking about, like, nobody's hiring juniors unless you're me, in which case I just taught all my friends to program, and now that's what they do full time. And he's like their little mini Daniel Colbourns because I taught them, and they just do exactly what I do. And then, like, this kinda sounds appealing. You know?
• 16:35
  Like, what Yeah.
• 16:35
  Michael: What would
• 16:36
  Jake: that be like? And the cool thing too, and I think maybe it was Ben Orenstein talked about this too, is like the idea of just being able to have, like, a group of people locally that you can work with. I mean, that's pretty rare, like, I feel like anymore that you have a group of developers locally, especially if you don't live in, like, a big city, which I don't. I live in a moderately sized city. It's not tiny, but it's not huge.
• 16:58
  It's not like a metropolis. It's not a Chicago or Adelaide or something like that. It's not that large. So what I did is I hired this guy, and I'm like, this guy's local, which was the biggest requirement I was looking for. And then I'm just teaching him from, like, the ground up.
• 17:14
  And the other thing I really wanted to be sure of is that this was something that got him really excited. You know? Mhmm. So it was like when when I, you know, talk about some of these problems that you're gonna be solving, like, do his eyes light up? Is that like does that sound like something that you would want to do for, like, the next 5 years?
• 17:29
  It's like, oh, dude. Yeah. That's super exciting. So I had another guy that interviewed, and he was like, I mean, you know, right now, I'm just kinda looking for my next step in my career. I'm like, yeah.
• 17:37
  You're not the guy. You know what I mean? It's like, No. I want somebody who wants to do this, you know, who really, who loves this stuff. And so he's that guy.
• 17:45
  So he's, it's been so interesting to kind of go through it and remember all the things that you forgot you learned. And it makes it so evident, again, that there are so many people out there who need great teachers and great education. You know, when it's like I'm struggling to come up with an idea for a talk, it's like, holy cow, any of these things that I'm teaching him right now could be a full session. You know? Yeah.
• 18:09
  But so many times, you literally forget. I'm talking about, like, Git. You know, like, Git. Like, how do you use Git effectively?
• 18:15
  Michael: Critically, you you have me to go back and learn how to teach it puts you in the best position to teach it.
• 18:23
  Jake: Right.
• 18:23
  Michael: Because you are right in the weeds and you need to find for someone else. You know, how do I make this approachable?
• 18:29
  Jake: Yeah. Yep. And I'm so thankful once again for laricasts because Geoffrey Way has so much good content on there. The one that I'm pushing, my new developer through right now is PHP for beginners. And he goes through everything from start, like literally from like, you know, bracket, question mark, PHP.
• 18:48
  You know what I mean? Like, what is a PHP tag? You know, what's, how do you define a variable? How do you what's an array? You know, like all this stuff.
• 18:55
  And Jeffrey just does such a great job of teaching it. But the other thing that I really like about it too, is that he gives them a project to work on as he goes through it. Not a Laravel project, just a PHP project. Like straight up, how do we do a form? How do form requests work?
• 19:10
  What does a CSRF token? All that. Mhmm. And what Landon was telling me, my new developer, what he's telling me is that he'll do it. He'll show you sort of like the long way, and then he'll say like, okay.
• 19:20
  Now how can we make this better? And then he'll show you the easier way to do it. And then eventually, I know what's gonna happen. At the end, he's gonna be like, now all that stuff we learned, here's how Laravel makes that incredibly simple. But the great part about it is he's laying all that foundation.
• 19:32
  You know? Here's all the stuff that you have to know. He's not just skipping that and going straight to the Laravel stuff. It's like, by the time you get to the Laravel stuff, you understand that this is a shortcut to what you originally learned how to do. And so, man alive, if I had to teach all that myself, just bare bones, just had to go straight from nothing to that, oh, man.
• 19:50
  It would be a it would be a slog for sure. But, man, Jeffrey Way is such a good teacher. So good stuff. It's it's been really cool to kinda go through it and, see the questions he has to ask and, you know, some of the things some of the things he's learning. I'm like, oh, yeah.
• 20:05
  I totally forgot about that. So it's been pretty cool.
• 20:08
  Michael: You're nice. It's, yeah. Teaching teaching is one of those things, that you're either good at or you're not. Like, I don't think there's a gray area for teaching. You can either and, I mean, I suppose Jeffrey has the the benefit of doing it all the time.
• 20:26
  And so it's fresh to him, and so he knows, you know, what what actually resonates. But, I I spoke with Greg about this the other week, and it's like Eli learning to read now. I don't know how to teach him to read.
• 20:39
  Jake: Yes. Correct. Because
• 20:40
  Michael: I don't remember 30 years ago, when I was learning to read what the what the approach was. And I'm sure 30 years ago, it was very different to what it is now. I become he comes home from school with his with his books of like three letter words. And, you know, there's there's sight words like a and the and he and and whatever else. Like, the the the letters, you just you just recognize them as, you know yeah.
• 21:03
  All of these things that you recognize, and they don't the letters don't and the sounds don't form the word. But then, you know, he's doing other things where he's, like, looking at Sam, and he's going at Sam, like any any kind of phonetically puts these things together, which is, like, I wouldn't have known, You know? This is this is how we do it. So and then that, you know, starting with these simple three letter words, and then they worked 4 letter words. And then, you know, before you know it, they're reading.
• 21:30
  So but, yeah, this was, like, last night, he got to page 1 of the book that he picked out to to bring home, and it was like, nah. Not doing it. Like, he just didn't wanna, you know, tied or just, you know, we left it a bit late, close to bed, and he just didn't wanna play the game. But, yeah. It's it's it's and it's, like, frustrating for me because it's like, well, I'm trying to follow what you're doing, and Mhmm.
• 21:54
  You're getting frustrated because you're tired. You know? He knows it. Like, he knows the sounds and the letters and all of that kind of stuff, but he tries to like, we have to cover the picture so that he doesn't try and guess because when he tries to guess, he's kind of like guessing what's happening rather than reading, and it's not always correct. So, yeah, it's a it's a bit of an exercise in, you know, how how much patience do you have sometimes.
• 22:18
  Like, some most most of the time, he just blows through it. Like, he's got it all figured out. And and then every now and then, it's just it's a it's a challenge. So
• 22:28
  Jake: I I know exactly what you mean, though.
• 22:29
  Michael: Tremendous level of respect for, you know, for Jeffrey. But, like, any teacher that has the ability to, you know, to make and, like, especially with kids, but, like, adults as well, they all learn in different ways and different things resonate and click with different people, which is why we say, you know, teach the thing that you're learning, teach the thing that you're excited about, as you're learning as you're excited about it, because the way that it, like, makes sense for you may be the approach that someone else will understand, and it will help them to learn it. So it's, it's definitely not not a thing for everyone, but those of you that that are good at it, I, have tremendous respect for you.
• 23:15
  Jake: Yeah. The, couple things there. Like, number 1, it's so magical when your kids learn to read. You know what I mean? It's so cool.
• 23:22
  Even just a couple letter words. Like, even
• 23:23
  Michael: the fact that you can
• 23:24
  Jake: read Sam. I remember just being like, oh, well, that is so cool.
• 23:27
  Michael: It kinda hurt me out.
• 23:28
  Jake: I was like to read.
• 23:31
  Michael: Excuse me.
• 23:32
  Jake: Yeah. It's just the wildest thing. And then you'll be driving around somewhere, and they'll say they'll, like, you'll hear them in the back seat, like, sounding out something. And you're like, oh my gosh. They know how to read.
• 23:43
  It's so cool. It's just so cool. And it sounds so basic, but it's, like, it's amazing.
• 23:49
  Michael: There's a game that like, it's a web web app. I don't know if it's something that that you guys have over there. It's called Rating Eggs. And he's like, dad, can I play Rating Eggs? I'm like, sure.
• 23:58
  You know, you get the iPhone.
• 23:59
  Jake: Check this out.
• 23:59
  Michael: And, and he just, like they've got a a login through school. I don't know what the what the model is for, like, the public to use it. But you go in there and it helps sound it out. And, you know, it's all all web based, so you can use it anywhere, basically. And, yeah, he would just like sometimes he wants to just sit down and do reading eggs by himself unprompted whenever, you know, he's ready for it.
• 24:21
  So
• 24:22
  Jake: That's super cool.
• 24:23
  Michael: It's like yeah. Not just that he's doing it, but also that he's enthusiastic enough about it to want to do it, you know, by himself whenever.
• 24:32
  Jake: Yeah. I mean, and the thing too is, like,
• 24:37
  Michael: what do
• 24:37
  Jake: they say? Like, leaders are readers. Right? I mean, it's like a little kitschy saying. But, truly, I mean, having so my one daughter was she could read, but she just wasn't great at it.
• 24:48
  And, I went with you. Like, I could not figure out how to teach her how to do it. I just I couldn't. You can't I can't go back that far. I don't remember how the the techniques or whatever.
• 24:57
  So we got her a reading teacher, and, reading is so connected to, like, their confidence, you know, like how much confidence they have. And and then also just, you know, that if you can read, you can learn anything. You know? And so having good reading skills and being able to comprehend what you're reading is so critically important just for life. So it's super cool that he, like, enjoys it and is, like, really finding, you know, finding it fun to learn that stuff.
• 25:23
  That's that's really cool. So but, yeah, like, you know, another thing that's like that is math. I used to teach math. Right? But it was like high school level math.
• 25:33
  So I don't know. I can't teach kids how
• 25:34
  Michael: to like
• 25:35
  Jake: math. I don't. Yeah. No. I can't do that.
• 25:38
  I don't know how to do that anymore. But it is similar like that. Like with PHP and stuff too. It's like sometimes you're like, dude, I don't like Git. Like, okay.
• 25:46
  Mhmm. I mean, I just know my aliases now. Yeah. It's like I have some tips maybe for, like, how to create a pull request using GitHub command line. But even it was funny too.
• 25:56
  Like, you take for granted also, like, all the setup you've got with your dotfiles after years years years of using them. And it's like they don't have it. They don't even know what dotfiles are. And so it's like you're starting from absolute scratch. And they're like, how do I like like, what is Xcode command line tools or something?
• 26:12
  It's like, oh, that's right. I totally forgot you had to do that. Like, you know, before you can install brew, you gotta install Xcode command line tools. You know, it's just like, oh, jeez, haven't been in that world for a long time. You know, it only happens once every time you get a new computer and you've done it 5 times, so it's pretty quick.
• 26:28
  When you get somebody who doesn't even know anything, takes a little bit of time. So anyway, he's getting up to speed. And the other thing I was gonna say too is, this idea of, like, you know, so like when somebody's learning a new language, like a foreign language, for example, they say one of the best ways to do that is to just go immerse yourself in that language, in that culture. Like, just it's sort of like learning to swim by jumping in the deep end sort of thing. You know?
• 26:50
  So, like, if somebody's trying to learn Spanish or whatever, you just go go, you know, eat with a family that speaks only Spanish or something like that. You know, you might not understand 90% of what they're saying, but you're gonna pick up little bits and pieces. And the more you do that, the more you immerse yourself in that, the more you're going to pick up just by context. And so I've been trying to do that as well. Anytime I'm pairing on code, I'll pull him out of that, thing that, you know, that series that he's going through and just be like, hey.
• 27:16
  You're just gonna sit with us while we talk about this code. And you're not gonna know what 90% of it is, but that's fine. You're gonna pick up some things. You're gonna see some things that you'll recognize from what you're working on. And, like, oh, okay.
• 27:26
  I know kinda what's going on there. But it's just that idea of, like, throw him right into the deep end. And I'm not asking him to contribute any code, but just watch and learn and listen to the discussion and, like, the trade offs that we're having to make while we're talking about this code. And what's that comment you just did in a pull request? What's that?
• 27:41
  I don't know. You can do that. You know what I mean? Or what keyboard shortcut are you using to pull that up? What's that refactor thing that's in PHP store?
• 27:47
  And those sorts of things. And so I think that's really helpful too, just kind of getting them in as early as you can to just seeing production code and how the how the workflows work and how pairing works and and all that stuff. So that's been that's been interesting. I don't know I don't know if, like, what part of, your job is to do onboarding for developers or if you guys pretty much only hire seniors or, like, what that looks like for you. But, have you had any experiences like this?
• 28:13
  Michael: No. Not not directly. I mean, all of all of the developers that we have, or sorry, the majority of the developers that we have a senior and they and then we've got a couple of mid level ones that, you know, they kind of pick it up. So but they're they're pairing and they're like, reviewing and work, you know, we're all working with each other all the time. So and it's nice having a team where the I mean, they they mostly all work in the office, but, you know, sometimes you're trying to go back and forth on something that's like, let's just have a let's just have a huddle.
• 28:45
  Because the huddle, you can talk through it. You know, you don't you can see what and, like, I we've mentioned Ben Orenstein before. Same same kind of thing. You know, he knows he started a company for pair programming. It's just so much easier to sit next to someone in virtually or or in person and just go through what you need to go through because you can see what they're saying.
• 29:09
  You can ask questions about what they're thinking. Text back and forth is just there's too much of a of a blocker. Like, it's okay for some things, but just to be able to sit down and have, like, a 5 minute huddle or a pairing session and just figure something out. It's just, it's just much, much more useful. And even if, like, you don't have to know the person as long as you're not sharing company secrets or, you know, breaching NDAs or anything like that.
• 29:34
  It's easy to sit down with someone in isolation and and talk through problems like that. So but, yeah, you're right. Yeah. You know, learning a language to to immerse yourself, exposure, to to that. Like, conversational language is very different to, like, Duolingo.
• 29:49
  If you go and do Duolingo, it's it's much different to learn those things in the context of like learning the words than it is to Yeah. Go and actually speak the language. Because what you'll find is, you know, I was I was trying to, as an adult, relearn to speak Polish, and Duolingo will teach you, you know, the the gendered term the gendered wording and conjugating verbs and all that kind of stuff. But you go and speak to a Polish person, and they are talking a 100 miles an hour, number 1. Like, they're always talking in their native speed because they've been speaking the language for, you know, decades.
• 30:23
  Jake: Right.
• 30:24
  Michael: And number 2, conversational Polish is often very different to the the what you're learning. Yeah. I had a guy that I used to work with was trying to learn Polish, and he just, like, set his computer to Polish and was playing on hard mode. Oh, boy. Things that way.
• 30:46
  Yeah. So, you know, you he'd reply to emails, and everything would be, like, you know, where it would say, all all of the, like, the reply the previous reply stuff, it would all be in Polish. All the dates, all of the, you know, such such said and whatever else. He get this back every now and then. Like, he wasn't customer facing, so it's not like people outside his in the service or it, but it was still funny to to say it and be like, okay.
• 31:08
  Jake: Yeah. It's sort of like uninstalling your code editor, your IDE and just going hardcore mode on Vim, you know, like, I will figure it out. If I don't know, I will Google it and I will figure out that that
• 31:18
  Michael: Stick with it for a while.
• 31:19
  Jake: Do that.
• 31:19
  Michael: Not forever. Yeah. Yeah.
• 31:21
  Jake: Exactly. And it's or keyboards. You know what I mean? Same thing. It's like, hey.
• 31:23
  If you're gonna switch keyboards, like, stick with it for a couple weeks at least. Because if you don't, if you try to switch back and forth, you're not gonna get it. So Right. Anyway. Well, dude, that's all I got for today.
• 31:34
  And, if you got anything else, happy to chat through it. Otherwise, we can wrap this one up.
• 31:38
  Michael: No. I gotta go and record some embarrassing videos for for this You
• 31:42
  Jake: got this, man. I believe in you.
• 31:44
  Michael: And and we'll we'll see how that lands when it when it gets posted. But, I mean, it won't just be me. Fortunately, we're gonna have some, some branding artwork over the top of it, which will make it make it look better and hopefully distract from my own my own stupidity.
• 31:58
  Jake: You're gonna crush it.
• 31:59
  Michael: I'm gonna have
• 31:59
  Jake: to You're gonna crush it.
• 32:00
  Michael: With it.
• 32:01
  Jake: No doubt. Absolutely. Folks, thanks for tuning in. You can find a shown us for this episode at northmeetsouth.audio/155
• 32:07
  Hit us up on Twitter @JacobBennett @michaeldyrynda or @northsouthaudio. If you like this, rate it up in your pod catcher's choice. 5 stars would be incredible. And until next time, folks, we'll see you later. Bye bye.
• 32:20
  Michael: Bye