Latest / Dots and Dreams / Episode 10: I Don't Believe in Work-Life Balance But I Do Believe in Non-Negotiables.

Transcript

Episode 10: I Don't Believe in Work-Life Balance But I Do Believe in Non-Negotiables. · Dots and Dreams

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever been on vacation?
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: That break you were counting down the months, then the weeks, and then the days to.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: You get there only to realize that you're needed at work.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: You turn on your phone or you open your computer and your heart just sinks.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Not because something is wrong.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Not because someone is bleeding out on the surgeon's table.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: You are not a lifesaver after all.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: But simply because you are now mentally completely in a different place.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: You are no longer on vacation.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: You are no longer surrounded by nature or wherever you decided to go,
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: but you are now back to being sucked into some sort of hierarchical process
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: or something that you've been working on that isn't that big of a deal,
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: but it strokes so many people's egos that,
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: in fact, you do care at the end of the day.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: You may as well be back in the office wherever that is because you are no longer on vacation.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: That has happened to me many times in my career,
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: but the first time it stuck out was when I was in my late 20s living in New York
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: and working as a digital marketing manager for Louis Vuitton.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Dots and Dreams,
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: a podcast about the real vulnerable and my sometimes in the moment stories
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: of life transitions.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Jenny Sidorova and I've been an immigrant, marketer, mother and serial reinventor.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: And today I want to talk about work-life balance and why there's no such thing.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's 2012 and Max and I are on vacation with his family in Canada.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: This is our first year of dating but we had such limited vacation.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Max had 10 paid vacation days a year and I think I had about 15 back then.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we tended to use them on trips with our parents when they would visit,
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: and then we would each respectively go home for the holidays.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: That is the extent to what vacation looked like back then.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: We were in this gorgeous little town inside.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: In Quebec country called Camarusca.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: I distinctly remember having gone on a beautiful bike ride.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: We got back to chill a bit.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: You could literally see the lake from our room.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: I laid down on the bed to look out the window and just Admire the view.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: The alarm goes off on my I think it was BlackBerry back then.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: These were the BlackBerry days.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: The reminder of check email for product launch.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: I had set that reminder because there was some sort of very important product launch
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: that I just had to check in on.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Did anyone tell me to do that?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Would anyone have fired me if I didn't check in?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Also no.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: But let's just say that the work culture in New York City and
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: a company like Louis Vuitton had me feeling like I better check in.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Within just two seconds of seeing my inbox count and skimming a few email titles,
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: my heart completely sank.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: There was one single email that pulled me fully back into this toxic headspace
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: and literally ruined my vacation.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: I remember distinctly thinking, that's it.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: I am no longer on vacation.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was that moment then and there that I told myself,
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: never again, never again am I pulling up a work email when I am on vacation.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't actually know the words work-life balance in 2012.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: But clearly, I had an inkling of it.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: This is me in my 20s working in fashion in New York.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is not an industry, a country, definitely not a city with a concept of work-life balance.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just think about American vacation norms for a moment.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: How can you have 10 paid vacation days a year?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: There must still be people that have only that.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: That seems crazy to me today.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: I am the kid of immigrants, so hard work and integrity are not unknown values to me.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I also distinctly remember my parents using every single last day of vacations.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't a lot.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: I believe they had just 10 days for a very long time.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually,
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: later in their careers in Silicon Valley,
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: they finally started to reap the rewards of having what they call unlimited.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: My parents, I think they were just
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know what?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: We moved here with nothing.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: We worked so hard.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: We are taking one month a year.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: And they would go to Vietnam, Thailand, Argentina.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: They went all over the world and they would go for an entire month.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: So they would try to very deeply visit each country.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I was in high school at the time.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember just getting to stay home alone for a really long time, throw some house parties.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, I had my grandparents checking in regularly, but I was very responsible.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: So my parents trusted me completely.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I just remember them really planning their year around this time
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: that they were going to take off.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it took time,
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: but they got to a place in their careers where they just kind of knew
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: that no one would fire them the same way that no one would ever say thank you.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: So you work hard, you deliver on your objectives, but you take your damn vacation too.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: But in my 20s, I had no language for that.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: I just had this inkling that working evenings,
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: weekends and checking my phone on vacation was not normal.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't have the experience to frame an actual opinion about it.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: But in my gut,
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: every Saturday morning when I would sit and work for two to three hours,
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: I remember thinking, There's got to be more to life than this.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: And this is in my 20s.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Most people in their 20s are just thinking money, money, money, crush it, crush it, crush it.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that pattern really repeated itself everywhere at Louis Vuitton,
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: then at Walmart e-commerce when I lived in the Bay Area,
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: and then with L'Oreal in Paris.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: That vibe of just working kind of all the time,
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Even if the hours were better,
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: at Walmart you could leave at 5, but then you would reconnect from 8 to 11.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: So is it really worth leaving at 5 then?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: And this is pre-kids.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is just me being single and only having myself to answer to.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: There was also something else in those bigger corporate companies that I noticed, which was...
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: There was this very cult-like culture where everyone lived and breathed the company.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Their friends were from the company.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Every weekend they would see each other.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: But there was this specific hypocrisy that really stands out to me,
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: which was in Paris with L'Oreal.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Every time I left at 5 p.m.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: on a Friday,
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: I would have a comment from someone telling me,
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: oh, are you taking the weekend early?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking 5 p.m. on a Friday, people.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: And this is in a place where a lot of these commentators would take 15 coffee breaks
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: and then hit send on an email at 7 p.m. just so everyone
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I was already starting to form a very firm opinion about this is not normal.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: There is such a thing as thinking about work-life balance.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't actually think it exists, but I do think the thought of it exists.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it was kind of at L'Oreal where I had this breaking realization
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: that I would like to work differently than all of these companies have shown me.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: At L'Oreal,
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: I got really good at prioritizing what mattered most to me,
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: which was my private life, because let's just be honest for a second.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: No matter how much you love your job,
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: no matter how much money you're making,
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: your family and your personal life are always going to be the most important things
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: in your life.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: That is just a fact.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: If you get a call that someone you love needs you, you are going to drop what you're doing.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: So at L'Oreal I already understood that.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: I already prioritized my parents, my husband and so on.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: When I got the call that my uncle was in the hospital in Germany,
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: I hopped on a train without so much as checking in with my boss.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: But that is also a testament to the type of person I worked for
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: because I knew he would understand.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it does also have something to do with the type of people you're working with.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: At L'Oreal,
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: I got really good at kind of also managing people and delegating in a way
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: that empowered me not to check my emails on vacation.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: I liked to actually catch up on what I missed the Sunday before going back to work.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: No one ever enforced that.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it quickly became clear to me that that is precisely the point.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: No one is ever going to enforce anything when it comes to this timeline.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: We can all catch up the way that we want as long as we come into work, deliver and crush it.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: For some people, it's never disconnecting and that's their choice.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's disconnecting fully,
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: not looking at a single email,
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: but dedicating my day before going back into the office to catching up so that
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: when I show up that first day after two weeks out, I already know what's up.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: I like to come in already knowing,
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: especially if you're managing a team and people are relying on you.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: When I worked at DX,
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: the smaller B2B tech Norwegian company I worked in,
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: where we were all fully remote,
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: I started to form what would kind of become part of my manifesto.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: The motto I live by today and ever since this opportunity is
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: that there is no such thing as a personal and a professional life.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have two lives.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: They are intertwined.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: As whole humans in everything we do, there is just Jenny Sidorova.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: There is no personal Jenny Sidorova and professional Jenny Sidorova.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm always going to be thinking about non-work related stuff during the workday.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to be thinking about work related stuff at night with my kids.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that is just how we humans operate.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: There is no divide.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of gained confidence and a really strong perspective on myself
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: and how I show up during this experience in that I'm someone with a lot of integrity
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: and I deeply care for everything I do.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: I might even care a little bit too much.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I really can't stand the idea of disappointing others.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I have to be truly careful with who I
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: tend to treat every company as if it's my own.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: I treat every marketing budget I've ever had as if it's my money.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And when you bring that kind of attention to someone else's profits,
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: you have to protect yourself.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: So DX, the Norwegian company,
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: is where I kind of saw that companies and leaders with a different point of view and
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: a different way of doing things do exist.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Let me just share a few things of why this company was so different.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, we were fully remote and we did have core hours.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't like you can work between midnight and 4 a.m.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: because no other colleagues are going to be available.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: We were all on the European time zone.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: But we did still have a real culture of asynchronous work,
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: which means you reply when you reply.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's not because somebody tagged me on something that I have to drop everything
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: and reply right away.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Our core hours were more for meetings and working through things together,
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: but we still applied asynchronous work in our culture.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: A concrete example is I used to block creativity time for myself
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: at least three hours a week because when you're in marketing,
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: you need the space to step away and have ideas and be creative.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times that would involve going for a walk
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: or it would involve doing something in my house that was not sitting in front
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: of my computer.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: I would a lot of times get pings on Slack because when you work for
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: a remote company, your Slack is just blowing up nonstop.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it was really hard for me at first not to feel like I had to immediately answer
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: because coming from companies like Walmart,
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Louis Vuitton, L'Oreal, you always had to immediately answer.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you didn't, you'd get a call.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: It took me a long time,
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: a couple of months at DX to realize that if I'm blocked for creative work,
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have to be anxiously waiting for pings or replying to them.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: I can do that later thanks to our asynchronous culture in the company.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: DX is also the first company I worked for that just wasn't reactive by default.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: We were not constantly putting out fires.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: We tried to be very proactive and that in itself just made it so much more fun
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: and less stressful and easier to be efficient
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: where we're not constantly chasing our tails or chasing egos.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Also, a culture that prioritizes trust over control as really like an opera.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: We just had this mindset,
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: and I was part of the management team,
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: so I really know this was embodied in the culture of the company.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: But we had this mindset of we are all adults.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: We should all trust each other to do what we're good at and what we're getting paid to do.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it is amazing how happy people are when you prioritize trust over control
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: and how much they actually want to deliver for you.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: They end up working more.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: And the clearest proof of that is multiple people on
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: the management team had small kids and nobody was ever afraid
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: to say they were taking a sick kid day.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: And this is something that is specifically Norwegian, but also something that I...
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: I've just never experienced anywhere else that you actually don't have to say I'm sick.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: You can say my kid is sick and you have dedicated kid sick days so you don't have
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: to tap into your own vacation or your own sick time.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: What a concept.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm telling you all this
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: because I wish someone had handed me this thinking 20 years ago when I was
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: at Louis Vuitton.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: I still have friends living in cities and working in industries where the only life
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: on offer to them is the one that is built around a very frantic,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to be clear that I'm not saying work doesn't matter.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: It matters enormously to me.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: What I'm saying is that no company,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: no boss,
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: no culture is ever going to hand you permission to prioritize
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: the life you actually want.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody sends you that email.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: The never again I made for myself in Kamerushka with Vacation was
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's the same thing that I'd hand you right now.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Do not take time off with your hard earned money just to ruin it for yourself
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: by being connected to work all the time.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: But that is also in alignment with my priorities and my values.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So figure out what yours are.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Today,
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm at a point where I know very clearly what I would and would not be willing
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: to compromise.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, that is work environment, culture and leadership.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Those are probably the three things that matter most to me as I embark right now
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: on looking for full-time work.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: The role is super important.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: The salary is also important.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: I have a family to support.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: But if the environment is uplifting,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: empathetic,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: and human,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: if the culture is thoughtful and embodied at the top,
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: and if the leadership lives by the values of the company,
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: then I know I can compromise on other things,
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm not going to compromise on those things.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: There are some red flags that you can look for when speaking to companies
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: because it is kind of hard to know,
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: well, what is a company culture going to be like?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: How do I know up front that they're going to shame me for leaving at 5 p.m. on a Friday?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because I certainly didn't know that with L'Oreal online.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: So a few red flags to look out for are if before you even get the job,
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: you have to do 10 hours of work for free,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: then there probably isn't going to be a whole lot of integrity on the company side.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have to do like three case studies and at no point are you offered money
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: for your time, there might be an integrity problem.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing to look out for is if you're getting emails during
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: the recruitment process at weird times in the night from the sender's time zone,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: then that's something to make a mental note of because then
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: that means they are okay sending emails at that time in the night.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Something I have always done as a manager,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: and I actually started doing this at L'Oreal,
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: is I would never send emails past 6 p.m.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: I would schedule them to go out the next day at 8.30 a.m.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: I would write them,
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: but I would not send them because I did not want the more junior people
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: on my team feel pressured like they had to reply to me.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Or I would send the email and write up front,
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sending this now, please don't worry about replying.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: But it is really important to kind of set the example of what you want others
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: to keep in mind when they're building their careers
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: and figuring out what their priorities are.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: If the only questions you are being asked on an interview process are related to
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: the job and nothing to do with you,
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: the human,
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: applying for the job,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: then that gives you an insight of what a day in the life of
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: that company would look like.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: And those three things to me are red flags.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Your red flags might look completely different.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that companies have the upper hand right now.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: I understand that.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: The job market is really tough.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: But human-minded companies...
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Do exist.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Companies that take into account more than just filling a seat are out there.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just about identifying what matters to you and what you're willing
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: to compromise on and whether or not you feel alignment with where you're working.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: And no one can do that work for you.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: You have to do it yourself.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to see photos from the different periods of my life that I talk about,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: make sure you're subscribed to the Dots and Dreams podcast substack.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: I share them in the newsletter that goes out with each episode.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: You can even hit reply and tell me what's your experience with work-life balance
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: and how have you reframed your thinking around this topic.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed listening to me and could rate
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: and review this episode wherever you're listening,
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: that will help others like you and I find this show.