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What Men Lose When They're Told to Stop Crying with David Cutler · Reclaiming Consciousness

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I did get in like a big argument with my dad basically about whether crying was allowed anymore in the house.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was 13.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: He was like, you just can't cry the way you've been crying anymore.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: In general, it was like kind of like established like at a certain age, you just you're a man now or whatever.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was like exactly at that age where this kind of enforcement happened.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe he felt like he had to be a dad in that way.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Teach me that I'm a man now, you know.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right at that same time, for whatever reason, I got back into the martial arts.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like that let me stay in my body in a place where otherwise, like if I weren't allowed to feel things, because like crying is just basically processing feeling.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: If I didn't have an outlet for feeling, I think something else would have happened.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: I probably would have gone into drugs or something like that, which a lot of my friends did at that age.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Reclaiming Consciousness.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Elise Bassine, trauma and breath work expert and creator of the Metamorphosis Method, the only methodology bridging the gap between spiritual healing and clinical trauma work.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: For many years, our consciousness has been hijacked by societal and cultural programming, religion, the media, and familial and ancestral trauma.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: In this podcast, you'll discover my unique perspective on trauma healing and how it is the gateway to fully reclaiming your consciousness.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_03: You'll hear stories and teachings that expand your mind as you discover how every relationship challenge, business block, or limiting pattern is an invitation to reclaim the parts of your consciousness you unknowingly gave away.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: Get ready to go deep.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: Now let's dive in.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: Hi everyone, welcome back to the show.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: This week I have David Cutler back on the show, who is a longtime client and friend.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I just was tuning in to like what I wanted to talk about on the podcast this week.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I just decided to have a conversation with him because him and I always have the best conversations like all day long.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: So I was like, let's just have a conversation on the podcast.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I originally I wanted to talk about this idea of just like men and personal growth work and like why women seem to be so far ahead in that realm.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I know there's men that are great and do this work, and David is one of them.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: He works with a lot of men, so I wanted to get his perspective on that.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: But then we kind of go in a bunch of different directions just naturally about our own process and feeling your feelings and the power of that and all these different things.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I think you guys are gonna love this episode.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: And if you are interested in diving into this work in any capacity, if you are someone that has done a lot of work already, but you still are coming up against some of the same challenges in your life, in your relationships, in your business, if you have been wanting to move forward with something and feel like you keep getting stuck or keep having decision fatigue or fear of criticism or all of those things that are stopping you, then reach out to me.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: We can get on a call.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: I can listen to what's going on and let you know what I think the block is and what needs to be done.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: I love hearing from you guys.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: I love talking about this stuff.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: And from there, you can decide if you want to move forward in any capacity, but it's no pressure because I just love to hear from you and where my audience is at.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: It just gives me so much more information as to what you need and content to create and all of the things.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: I know some people have resistance to moving into this work or even getting on a call with me because then it's like, oh my God, now I can't hide from it anymore.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_03: And now I actually have to move forward with it.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: But the thing is, even though we think we're hiding from it or we think we don't want to do the work, it's actually more work not to do the work because you're just like low level resisting it at all times.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: And it takes a ton of energy, it makes you extremely tired, and you kind of have this like low-level anxiety or fear or sadness or whatever.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: And the more that you can just bring that to light and feel it and get support with it and shift it when you come out on the other side.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_03: Things are always so much better than you can imagine.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: Definitely reach out.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'd love to hear from you.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: And if you have any questions about any of my programs, the metamorphosis or the certification, please reach out.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sending you all so much love and enjoy the episode with David.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, everyone.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back to the show.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I have one of my favorite people with me again, David Cutler.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I have a topic of conversation, but we're gonna see where it goes.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_03: So, David, welcome to the show.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: Can you just like give everyone a little overview of who you are and what you do and whatever you want to say about yourself?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_03: The shortened version or longer version.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: The long version is pretty long.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: I am named David Cutler, uh, and I have a coaching business called energetic coaching, where I take people through a manifestation process.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: I use like breath work, I use different meditative kind of techniques and also energy work and some more like I guess like esoteric ways of kind of manifesting their world from the inside out.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: I take people through a process that both helps them get to know themselves and also to create the things they want like simultaneously.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been doing that for about two years.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Before that, I did massage for like five years.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: I started practicing energy work and stuff in like 2018, and then before that I was a professional musician.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that's kind of what I do.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's who I am.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: And this is where I kind of wanted to start because for you, obviously, I think you felt drawn to this stuff from a young age.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: And you started doing martial arts when you were younger too.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and obviously you work with a lot of men, and I actually work with more men right now than I ever have.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: So I think there's definitely more men who are getting more into personal growth.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: But obviously, there's like this huge like gap between like men and women doing personal growth work.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: Not to say men aren't, and I don't want to like talk shit about men at all because I think they also have a lot of times like a different way of relating to this type of work.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: And this is something that you and I have talked about as I've like supported you with working with male clients and like some of the stuff that comes up that I think is different than working with women.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I wanted to get your take.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like, why do you think there's this gap?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like, why isn't it like, oh, men and women are both doing personal growth work now because that's where we're at on the planet?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_03: Why isn't it like that?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know because I've been in a lot of different spaces in this field and the acupuncture, traditional Chinese medicine space, yoga space, Tibetan Buddhism space, some other like consciousness kind of circles, and almost exclusively it's all predominantly women in all these different spaces.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it is a trend.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what came to mind when you were talking was I watched this documentary years ago.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's called The Mask We Live In.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just about cultural bias around feelings and how that affects male-bodied people specifically, and how a lot of this work is like requires it's kind of crazy actually how much you can just if you just feel everything, like your life will be fine.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: Say more about that.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the more I do this work and I correlate what's going on in the inside with what's going on in the outside, the more I see the importance of taking responsibility for like the felt landscape of my body.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of that is emotional.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I sort of see that if I am able to be fully self-responsible for these emotions and all the tactile sensations that go along with them, then I can, you know, I can't prove this, but I I basically feel like I can offset like negative events in my life, like in my relationships and just different life situations.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that in our culture, at least in the West, I don't know how it is in the East, I think it may be a little different.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: But around the age of 13, like feeling in men is like heavily discouraged culturally, just across the board.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: And with women, it's less so.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that has its own pitfall fall pitfalls, because then we have stereotypes of like the overly emotional woman and stuff like that.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: But at least in general, it's not shunned like for a woman to cry or to feel stuff, right?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, I think that with men there's this other layer of like an emotional education, and there's a lot more armoring like around the heart that's been expect this far, such that like either that's why they're less in the space because they just got pushed out of that kind of aspect of themselves, like at a younger age, or also because there's sort of a steeper learning curve.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think there's like one nook for like a particular type of masculinity that's sort of appreciated culturally.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's only like five percent of men that I think that like really fall into that, and it's sort of more the like demonchismo and like super disciplined, super rigid, which I think has a place, and I think it can be done well.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I see like men's retreats and stuff, and they're they're mostly oriented around like that archetype.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there are other archetypes like more like uh that's more like an Achilles kind of archetype, like that warrior slash like dominant, but there's also like the more like Merlin archetype, you know, and that doesn't have a lot of space in the culture because that's more about feeling and and it's not like not masculine, it's just a different approach to it.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I remember being a kid, and like just it just like as soon as you hit 13, you're just like not okay to cry as a man, at least in my upbringing, both personally in my household and also like going outside and being with friends and stuff.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, and then I wonder too, because obviously we've talked a lot about like your childhood and your dad and all that stuff, and like share whatever you feel comfortable sharing because you weren't an exception to this, like you were told you shouldn't feel your feelings and all that stuff, too, but you somehow figured it out.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, why do you think that was the case for you versus like other boys or men who had that same thing going on?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: I would say probably the martial arts actually, because right around that same time, so I did get in like a big argument with my dad, basically about whether crying was allowed anymore in the house, you know.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: So did he tell you it wasn't allowed?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, pretty much at like a certain age.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was 13.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: He was like, You you just can't cry the way you've been crying anymore, you know.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, I might have been being more boisterous, I don't know, but like in general, it was like kind of like established like at a certain age, you're just you're a man now or whatever.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking like about his he's Ashkenazi Jewish and he had a bar mitzah and I didn't have a bar mitza, but like it was like exactly at that age, at that 13-year-old mark, where this kind of enforcement happened.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if that's like was like happening for him subconsciously or something, like maybe he felt like he had to be a dad in that way.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Teach me that I'm a man now, you know, and there's stuff like that.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh the other thing is like um, you know, we don't have any real ritual in our culture around like coming of age for really either gender.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that because with the exception of like sex education or like young women learning about their menstrual cycle, there's not really any way that like the adults sort of transfer the children into like a more maturated framework.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: But right at that same time, for whatever reason, I got back into the martial arts.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like that like let me stay in my body in a place where otherwise, like if I weren't allowed to feel things, because like crying is just basically processing feeling, so that if I didn't have an outlet for feeling, I think something else would have happened.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: I probably would have gotten into drugs or something like that, which a lot of my friends did at that age.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them went to jail and stuff like that.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's pretty serious.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: But for whatever reason, I got into the martial arts right at that time, pretty seriously.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it was such a visceral thing for me.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like without knowing it, I was like doing a lot of processing in the environment.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, and then I was into music, which is like a with music, like you you kind of have to cultivate like a particular emotional landscape, or at least access to a like a through line to your own emotional landscape in order to present a good performance to the world.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Then I was like, oh well, then I can just transmute my emotions.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: I always had some sort of transmutation tech like without knowing that that's what that was at the time, you know.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh some sort of transmutation.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: And that makes sense now that I've been doing calari, which now you're doing too.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: And it's weird because obviously I've done yoga for so long, and that does put you in your body, but there's something about I think martial arts that puts you in your body in a different way.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_03: I don't really know how to describe it.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: And it helps you process things in a different way and like move, open up your channels, I feel like.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: So things have more of a like way to move.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: So that is really important.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I also think just that most of the people I work with, and you can say if this is different for you, like they don't really have a context for their emotions or like what's happening because no one, along with like the ritual of like growing up or whatever, it's like no one even has a context for like what they're feeling and what that means and why.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_03: So they're just like feel like they're crazy or they feel this way, but they shouldn't feel this way, or whatever.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: And then they don't really have this context to understand why they feel what they do and like what that means and like what to do with it.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I know you work with probably more men than I do, but like, what do you see as the biggest like challenge for them?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I would say um that most men can only drop into their lower body in certain activities, and that there's so much emotional information in like the hips and the lower body that I feel like that's like the main kind of unconscious driver for like human behavior, unconscious emotion in the hips and the reproductive system and those lower chakras and stuff like that.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like with for men, it's like there's only certain instances where like dropping into that part of themselves is like really appropriate.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's like interrelationally, like maybe romantically, or like in certain like business kind of like bull-headed business kind of stuff, but like in general, just like living in that place is not really at a certain point for whatever reason, it stops happening.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't exactly know why, but you know, I think that's a big part of it is like starting to bridge that connection of like, well, your emotions are felt, they don't happen in your head.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: They're like information throughout the whole vessel that's like pinging and giving you stuff.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have not been in in contact with that for a while, there's like cobwebs, you know, and you have to go through the process of clearing the cobwebs to drop back into oneself and and really feel what's going on.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then, like you said, like you have to develop a whole language for it.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was on a call with someone today.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: It was like we could get them to drop in, and then it was like in order to describe what was happening in their body, they have to come up, kind of come up and out to just because there's not like a through line yet.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: There's not an established like line of communication between like the felt self and like the kind of vocabulary and languaging that we use around like talking about our day.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: I I feel like there's just a huge kind of re-education that has to happen around communication.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I don't know why I was like, I just was stuck in my body.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, at the beginning, it was kind of a burden to be like in my body as much as I was because I was like having a lot of discomfort and then learning how to navigate that.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: But for whatever reason, I never got pushed fully out.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: It is so weird, you have to develop a whole new language.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like there are a lot of men in the quote unquote like spiritual space, but it's still all like intellectual too.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like that's why there's so many like dysfunctional things going on in like those spaces, is because they're like talking about it, but they're not actually like doing it or feeling it or aware of it.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: And then I feel like it gets like weaponized to or it gets like misused, I'll say.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, you could say that.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think the the main thing for me, and what I really learned a lot over the last couple of years, it's like in the in-between spaces.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of that's like a good example of like, let's say there's like a shaman or or like a yoga teacher or something, it's like that's one of the places where they can drop into their body and be really powerful.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: But then it's like when that's over, and you know, and I don't know what people are doing, I don't know their lives, but it's like, do they come back out again?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And is it more of like a ping-ponging?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it like really like a commitment to like being in that aspect of yourself, like also while you're doing the dishes, like also while you're like taking care of your mom or like hanging with your cat or with your pet, or and I feel like if you really committed to that, what what you're discovering doesn't happen as much because it's more of like a continuity.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I, you know, I think that there is some weird, like almost like the archetype of someone who's gonna, I might end up in a space like that, but like the archetype of someone who's like gets famous doing something like that is also one of this contrast.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why, you know, but there's something about that, like where the it's like these selective environments where they're like empowered, and then they're and then there's a big disparity.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because it's like, well, uh a man who has a big like following for like whatever their like spiritual thing is or whatever, like they're able to hold that energy when they're in that space.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: But then when it comes to like, oh, there's all these like women that like them and stuff, and like then that brings up whatever their other unhealed shit is around like their mom or relationships or whatever, and they can't like apply the energy that they held there in that position of like leadership or teacher or whatever to these other things that are that are happening and bring like consciousness to that, or use like spiritual language to like act like what they're doing is like conscious, but really it's not, it's just playing out wounding and stuff.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that can happen.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: That's what happens.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was just thinking while you're talking, like one of my first meditation teachers was a a nun who studied in this Thai Buddhist tradition, and she lived at a nunnery.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, if someone had a big realization or something and like thought they might have gotten enlightened or something like that, they would send the monk or nun home to live with their parents for a week.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: That's a perfect thing to do.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I and I think it's like that.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like, because I'm not perfect in each different role.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think there are roles in my life where I'm more empowered than others and stuff, but I think it's it's more about having this continuity and the consciousness of it.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like you're able to say, like, oh, I just like hung out with my dad and it was just shit show, but you're like willing to look at what's going on and willing to not have it all figured out or not have some black and white opinion on it.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: You're willing to be like, okay, what aren't I seeing, or how can I heal this, or what's coming up?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you don't have to have it all figured out, but you just have to have that like awareness of like, okay, something's happening here that I need to look at.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Again, it's like the discomfort of like, for whatever reason, just you know, having some kind of commitment around being embodied and then being like, Well, I just had this experience, you know, like I was in my power in this setting, and then I hung out with this person and or my parent or my dad, or and then I feel really uncomfortable.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, okay, I don't want to feel uncomfortable.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: And for whatever reason, you know, it really all comes back to like the only way to not feel uncomfortable is to take full responsibility for your inner landscape.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know how I was blessed in a way to just have that as a thing in my life.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: I've had times where I tried very hard to not have that, it was always there in the background.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's like the commitment to that.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, as long as that commitment is there, then you have to come back to the drawing board.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Every time there's an upset, every time you connect with someone in a way where there might have been a lack of integrity, you have to come back to like, oh, well, like what's in me?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the driving force for me in that was like not wanting to feel uncomfortable.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think I find myself with both men and women, all gendered people, it's like, how do we get this to be a commitment to oneself to have an orientation around, like, I say like our own center?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: How often do we just like abandon ourselves?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then we have to come back and feel what's there.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: And how do we convince people to like make that a priority in their lives?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm gonna be the center of my own life, not in a selfish way, but in the sense that like this is like the axis around at least my own world, like my own limited world, spins around this axis.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah, because I think also that takes a level of like self-responsibility.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: And even for me, like who lives like that too, like there's times, and I'm sure you've experienced this too, where you're like, when you have something that's going on and you know you're kvetching about it.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: We we David and I have coined the term constructive kvetching, which is like your way of processing shit that's going on that's bothering you.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: But the end of the day, at some point you have to come back to like, okay, how am I creating this?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_03: And what is this representing for me?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a point in that process.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: I know sometimes for me where I'm like, Yeah, yeah.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't want to.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: And also it sometimes it can like bump up against the part of me that's like feels like I'm not doing a good job or I'm not good enough.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Or whatever, and then I'm like, oh, and then it feels like, oh, it's me, it's me, like I did something wrong or something.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it's confronting, you know, and you have to be willing to be uncomfortable not only with what you're feeling, but also like in confronting why this thing is showing up in your life.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it is us.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I think that one of the things I've garnered a lot from working with you is like that you can take self-responsibility without making it bad.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And like that's a huge pivot point because you know, there's like this real corollary with a sense of freedom in the world.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like it starts with freedom and then it extends to like really being able to build a capacity to care for others, take care of people.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that and self-responsibility.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like impossible to have one without the other.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's true that if I am self-responsible, then every time something goes wrong in my life, it's kind of my fault.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Either something I did, some way that I'm behaving in a different relationship or in a different paradigm is being reflected here, and I don't like it on that reflection, but I'm doing it somewhere, I'm doing it right.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be the case.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be so.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: And at the beginning, I think when people learn these philosophies, through whatever medium they learn it, it's like there's also usually a lot of self-deprecation and like self-hatred and like all this crazy stuff that has to get let go of and processed before we can get to a place of being like self-responsible without self-blame, and then that's like where all the magic happens.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I mean, I resisted too, where I'm like, oh, something happened, and then I'll like I'm like, I could try to like investigate this now, but I'll just like wait two days and eat like just like lay on the couch or whatever.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, it just all comes back to feeling like eventually it's just so uncomfortable that you just want to change it.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_03: And once you get used to like feeling what's going on, you know that it's better to just do that because you know you're gonna come out on the other side and you're gonna have a shift or whatever, yeah.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: You know, yeah.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like you know at a certain point that like that's just the case, and you're just like, all right, fine.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally just admit.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: Can you share a scenario that was like a challenge for you around that of really having to be able to look at like, okay, how am I actually creating this?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's mostly in relationships, probably romantic partnerships is the probably the most vulnerable space to like have that exploration.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's like I almost always find that there was some opening in me that let the disadvantageous dynamic continue, you know, perpetual in relationships that like have turned out to be more volatile or something.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Being like, okay, like some sort of lack of self-love like enabled this to prolong this disharmonious connection or dynamic or something.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's a hard thing to take responsibility for, I think.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's probably the hardest.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: That's the hardest.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's probably the hardest.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: Because there's so much to it, because I think that relationships, well, obviously, there's like the element of like how it reflects your dynamic with your parents and like what way.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_03: And then also like, and I think we've talked about this, like being able to discern between like what we would call like a trauma bond, right?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_03: That feels very real.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like that feels like love, or it feels like this like deep connection.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: And then to be like, wait, is this like a trauma bond?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: But it's like feels everything in you feels like it's a real thing.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: And like to discern between, like, I feel like that is probably one of the hardest things to like actually be able to discern between.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it also like it goes in like arc, or sometimes it's and other times it is like bonded in a we were talking about that positive projection thing.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: I can explain it, I guess, for the audience.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, explain it, explain it, yeah.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, it's like when you don't have the capacity to see your own goodness, so you project your goodness outwards onto like usually onto like a romantic partner or a teacher or an authority of figure of some type until your ego or whatever part of you is ready to come to terms with you, that as you, yourself as that.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: It creates all sorts of problems because there's almost like an inherent power dynamic that you can't break out of.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: And also you can't really come into your own power and maintain that projection.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why people like, you know, when they first get into a relationship, they're like, Oh my god, this person is like so great.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: But really, they're just like seeing their own light or their own like greatness like reflected back in the other person.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: And not to say the other person isn't great, but like that's kind of like the honeymoon phase.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: And then like when everyone's shit comes up, it all breaks down.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I mean, I think with our parents, I tend to believe that there are these like moments in our childhood where despite whatever the conditions were, there's like there's like some sort of immaculate feeling.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Both our reference point for positive connection and negative connection come from the same like early bonded relationships.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really about the process of disentangling that.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think for me, if I had those fake experiences with a partner or something, I hadn't yet done the work around like, well, there are also instances where like that, like if I really learned what like true love was like as a child from like one of my parents, but then like there are also instances where like there was a less than advantage, disadvantageous relationship with the same parent.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're starting, you can't, without starting to sift that apart, you start to conflate both things with like a relationship.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is how relationship I think this is where I've been doing a lot of like kind of personal investigation around like dissolving codependency and maintaining like a sense of romantic love or a sense of like wonder and stuff like that, and how so much of that comes from our childhood, and also so much of what we have to let go of comes from our childhood too.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of strange to do that kind of work, you know, and like sort of in this in-between phase where if you really like start doing all this work, you're like all these movies just like they're just like about like codependence, and it's like, oh no.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's funny because I feel like so much work I've been doing with myself and everyone is around dissolving codependence.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's huge.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think we even realize the way everything's kind of set up around that.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: And the levels that it goes to, like where you think you like, okay, well, on the surface level, it's like, okay, well, my feelings are contingent on someone else's happiness or someone else being okay, right?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: But then when you go the deeper and deeper and deeper into it, it's so visceral almost, where it's like just this like survival mechanism where you're like constantly putting your energy outwards to feel the temperature of the people around you in order to feel safe.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not even like a thought process, it's like a visceral.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: And to me, that would be like more of an infant type of like level, but that has to be addressed to really like be able to not have dysfunction, you know, and it feels like you're gonna die.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's crazy.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I keep coming back to feeling, you know.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: I keep coming back to the word amorphous.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: These feelings, it's really like there's this really deep visceral intrinsic feeling that in order for my body to feel okay, yours does too.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then if that isn't happening, there's all these like unconscious signals firing all the time.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not as simple as like, well, I understand that you're not my mom or dating.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's just like like at the visceral level, there's like this constant entanglement and reaction.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is like where it gets really interesting.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's like to do the work of kind of clearing that is like you have to.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really have a word yet to describe the feelings, but it's like, yeah, like wound-level stuff, infancy level stuff, like embryonic level stuff, where we're like attuning to this thing, you know, it's like come, it's not really defined yet, and we're not really established yet as like separate.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: And the feelings that come with that territory are really strange.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because you're just you're just like absorbing the feelings that are around you or like the energy that's around you.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: But then the other thing I always come to around this too is like, well, in a certain way, like we have to do that anyway, right?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: And and like in order to be able to do what we both do, we have to be able to feel the energy of the people we work with and the people around us.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's more just like when you untangle all this stuff, then you can gain mastery over that so that it doesn't turn in on you, you know.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_03: I think I heard someone describe it as like it's like a dog on a leash, like you have to get control over the dog on the leash.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: Which I like that analogy.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not necessarily about control, it's more about like mastery over how do I like hold my energy so that I can feel what's going on and I can use it to like help people, but that it's not like hurting me or making me not know the difference between me and everything else.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Totally, totally.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I come to this with clients a lot, especially clients who are also in the similar field and help the field of helping people in some way.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: And as we start to work through some of this stuff, it's interesting.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same thing with codependence.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like with codependence, there's often a feel of fear like if I dissolve this codependent stuff, I'll be completely alone.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I always try to teach people that codependence, it's not inverse with independence, it's inverse with interdependence.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Once we can start to feel ourselves more separate, we can actually understand how we're we're actually connected.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: But also I feel like what happens for people is they associate whatever their role is in that codependent pattern with their like value and purpose and connection and love and survival.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like, then when you stop doing that, it literally feels like you're gonna die.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, or you're gonna lose everything if you stop like serving that function in the relationship.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of it is so it's so unconscious, right?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like I see with a lot of women, like, and myself included, like when they get into relationships, they have these like unconscious agreements around codependency, where it's like, okay, I'll protect you from feeling your shame if you make me feel like secure.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's not conscious, but it's like these unconscious codependent agreements that like come together, and then dismantling it feels like a fucking landmine because it's like, oh, well, if I dismantle this, the whole relationship just falls apart.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Totally, yeah.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: And feel you think you're gonna disappear.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_03: And you're just gonna like lose everything.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's one of the biggest things that I see too is like the fear around doing this work is feeling like you're gonna lose everything and like your whole world's gonna fall apart.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it is, but not in the way you think it is.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it is, but in a good way.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, people always feel like, and I always tell them, especially the ones who work with clients and stuff, like all this stuff is basically like a superpower that you just don't have, like you said, you don't have mastery, you don't have control over it.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: And the same thing with this identity stuff, or like, well, this is what defines me, how I'm related with others.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like people think they're gonna lose that, and actually, what they're not, they're gonna lose the part of them that's using that to survive or like to kind of control their life or something, which is usually unconscious.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: But you you keep it, you keep the good parts.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why, ironically, you do because, like, you know, like you said, like it is actually a tool, you know.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I um, you know, in certain uh like healing traditions that are more alternative, you do use your own body as like a like a diagnostic tool for what someone else is feeling, but you do it in a way where you're not you're you're not entangled, yeah.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: You're not taking it on or you're not feeling responsible for it.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: You can just see, like, oh, this is how I feel in this person's presence.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: And this is like what I feel in my body, and so that like gives you information.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I I for me, I would have those experiences, and then I would hang out with my mother, and it was exactly the same thing.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh, well, that's where this blueprint came from, and I don't have to take on her emotions anymore, and she'll be fine.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: And also, going back to the relationship thing, like I don't have to blame my partner.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you're making me feel you're taking on your emotions or whatever, because I I can see that it comes from an earlier place, and then also once I start to disentangle it, I don't have to do it uh unconsciously anymore.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like I can choose.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: And with my mom, it's like I probably started doing that when I was like, I don't know, two years old or something.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, everybody does, and I think like a lot, and maybe you can speak to this too, just like bring it back to men too.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think what ends up happening with men too is like because they don't feel like they're allowed to have emotions, but whatever they didn't get from their moms, right?
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: They're looking to reconcile in a relationship, but don't realize that that's what they're doing.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: So they're like unconsciously looking for somebody to take care of them or or be that emotional presence that they didn't get, but then they they end up then just turning into a child.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's like I don't know, maybe you can speak more to that, or what you see with men in relationships that you work with.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I do feel like it gets conflated with value as a partner.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I can know that I'm appreciated or something if I get taken in these ways, in the ways that you know my mom did or my mom didn't.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: And usually that's not conscious at the beginning.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's again the same thing.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how am I gonna relate to someone if I let go of that thing or these things?
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there is a real fear, especially people in long-term committed relationships, as they begin to change, like that they're gonna lose their partners.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I've had this myself where I'm like, okay, I'm like, I sort of see that I'm on a trajectory and I don't know actually know where I'm going, but I have a sense, a feeling, and that like certain things they're um aligned now.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: But then what if I if I change, if I keep going the way I'm going, like, is this still is this thing gonna last?
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: Is it gonna, you know, I think that's a real kind of concern or fear that people have.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: And also I would say that it's just like everything else that we're saying, like as long as one is self-responsible, even if it does transform or end, it always does so in a way where there's like a deep learning, and usually it's not like super toxic or violent or anything like that, you know, because you're doing the internal processing and taking like complete or as close to complete as you can, self-responsibility for yourself.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: But usually also what's happening is kind of like this.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's like we're kind of coming together again, and and sometimes it's not the same rate of speed that we're changing with the world around us, you know.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, and then this kind of brings me to like kind of the ongoing conversation we have around relationships in terms of like the kind of old paradigm or structure of what we think relationships are versus like what they could be now as we're like evolving as humans, because I think a lot of the ways that we see relationships don't actually work for people, you know.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: And then as you evolve, like you said, you might come apart and you might come back together.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: And like if you can't be okay with that because it doesn't look like, oh, we're just like together now and that's it, then it's not gonna work for you.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: But I think a lot of it too has to be about like taking responsibility for your feelings such that you can be okay with how a relationship evolves, even if it doesn't look like how you said.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_03: And then also being open to like different ways of relationships that like actually work better for you.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that's hard too, if that doesn't line up with the rest of the world or with like with what you grow up with, which is interesting because like I feel like a lot of times it's a response to what you grew up with to want to try a different thing, to want to try something different.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, you know, I just think it's like that we just have these different as I get further along in processing and kind of like figuring out what I am and what I'm not.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's true that when we're with different people, we kind of show different sides of ourselves.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: And also it doesn't have to be that that's for the other person.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of times those two things get conflated, and then and then it's about letting go of I really like the way the person I am when I'm with this person, and when they're not around, I feel more lonely or I feel more insecure.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, you just have to be okay with the version of yourself that kind of presents itself to each of all of those different things.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I really think it's like it's just an education.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, it's like seeing like what version of you, how you get to experience yourself in relation to another, right?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's not like, oh, this person is making me feel this way.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, no, this person is like mirroring back to you a part of yourself that you get to now like experience and explore in the container with this person.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that's something that we don't really like talk about.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: And it doesn't even have to be a romantic, it can just be like in general, but I think it that's important to for people, because it's not just about like, oh, this these are like my friends or this.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, no, like we are attracted to different relationships because of what we get to like experience and learn about ourselves in reflection, you know.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know if like, like I always say, I have so much Libra in my chart.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like I am naturally oriented towards learning through relating.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm like, maybe not everyone's like that.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's kind of like how I always say you need to learn about what you do through doing it, right?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_03: Through as a practitioner, just go work with people, but that's also like very much like a one-three human design thing.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm always like, oh, wait, maybe that's not everyone, maybe it's just me.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_03: But I kind of think it is everyone.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, maybe I'm wrong because I can't see it the other way.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but I do think that like there's something really valuable and important about the sharing and expressing in relationship, you know, to somebody else, because you would never learn or never be the way you would with someone else like other than that other person or whatever.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: You get what I'm saying?
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally, totally.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I just think there are certain experiences that you can't have alone, you can't have by yourself.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: And also I think it's really interesting to do this kind of like consciousness work or whatever you want to call it, like uh any sort of waking up process to like have those different mirrors.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I was thinking like there's the me I am with another person, there's the me I am when I'm alone, and then there's like the me that is like on my way to seeing them, or like just having disconnected and separating, and like I have to be okay with each of those aspects, and there's like so much information in all of those different places.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: Again, back to like the earlier part of the conversation, like with this whole like learning how to feel stuff and starting at the beginning, it's it kind of feels really uncomfortable.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: But as you get to know the process, it's not really uncomfortable.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: I keep having like feelings arise, and like my mind wants to be like, This is so uncomfortable, but I'm like, that isn't really true.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of information, but it's not really wrong or bad, and it's like immediate, like its essence, or whatever.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: So once you get to that place, which I think are a lot, a lot of people are not that far, it's not as far as it seems.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: Then, like each of those instances of like I'm with this way with this person, or when they leave, I feel this thing, or when I'm alone, I want I crave them, or I want I want connection, and like feeling all those little dissonances, and each of them is like a full, like a gusher, like it's this bursting with information, you know.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: Once we can wrap our heads around the process of like, oh, whenever I feel that I have a choice to like get back in my body, feel stuff, process, do whatever, whatever techniques or whatever kind of philosophies or worldviews that help you to like investigate that phenomena.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: And every time you do it, you learn more.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: You learn more about yourself.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then that's what you get you to this place where you really can be like interconnected.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: Once you start getting comfortable just feeling what's there, then it just like keeps moving and it's not like it's easier because you're just like moving the energy, moving the energy, moving the energy, feeling it.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_03: And it doesn't take that much effort when it's not that uncomfortable because you're just used to it.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not like something that you have to think about or make a problem, you know.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I think for men, especially if they associate like feeling with not being strong or being like weak or whatever, then they're like making it into something it's not because actually, when they do that, they're actually gonna be stronger.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: You have to feel it, you know.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what like the martial arts is like an amazing place to learn that.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: Posture, certain techniques, you you can't.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Do like without breathing, for instance.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: I never had a teacher be like, don't feel it.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: All my teachers have always been like, Gotta feel the pain, brother.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's the way that we that's where the seeing like a blacksmith, like that's where it where that whole outcome.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's where it happens, you know.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I know we don't have that much time, but I also wanted to say, um, oh, about the feeling stuff too.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: I think sometimes too, what can happen is that because I'll say to people, like, you know, you have to feel your feelings, and they're like, I am, but there's a difference between feeling feelings like you said, and taking responsibility for them versus feeling it, but like making it about another person or a situation.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_03: And that type of feeling is not actually productive when you are not taking ownership or even getting to the the root of like, well, where is this actually coming from?
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: And feeling it from that place versus feeling, oh, I'm just crying because my boyfriend said something mean to me.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like, that's not you're feeling it, but you're not actually feeling it from the lens of like, this is mine, this isn't about this person and like what they did to me, right?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's a very important caveat to yeah, and it's like almost like an infinite loop, I think.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's always a story, and you can always attach to the story, and you can always let go of the story and then find like a deeper, more subtle story.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, I don't know for sure, but I think that's endless.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think as long as we're associating with the label, your mind is always gonna produce a label for what's going on, for what's happening.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I feel like this idea that like thought information versus like tactile information in our culture, especially, we tend to really give a lot of credence to the thought.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a different language, like to it's like color and shape in the realm of feeling.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: That that's what the eventually, when you really let go of the story, you start to see different things that aren't really like uh so easily put into words.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just about a commitment of like, okay, like just a reorientation.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, like I feel this thing, it's really intense.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: Every time it gets too intense, my mind jumps into a story about it.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: And like, okay, from there I have a choice, I can just keep feeling it.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then, like you said, if you do that enough, then it's more of like there's like a constant fluctuation and a moving landscape.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and like what would you say?
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I can say this, but I want to hear from you first.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like, are the benefits of that?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what are the changes you see in your life as you get better and better at that?
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's like much richer life, like much, much richer, literally.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: You can like just more like technicolor.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and also you are like one of the best manifestors I know, too.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like, oh, I think I want this, and then like it literally like knocks on your door the next day or something.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm having students have that experience too, so that's a good thing.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: But I think but I bring that up to say I think that's part of what happens too when you do that, because then there's nothing like because a lot of times when we want to create something, we then are automatically faced with like what is in the way, right?
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like the emotional stuff, the beliefs or whatever.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_03: But if you're constantly in that process of like processing all that, there's nothing in the way.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, except for what appears to be in the way, which isn't in the way at all.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_03: Or like, you know, whether it's something that's just like a matter of like unfolding or something, you know, unfolding, that kind of a thing, but it's not like a problem.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think you get to enjoy a little more.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: And this is something I'm starting to like tune into, like, oh, you can just like relax, you can just rest in like the receiving of what your creation, you know, whatever you're engaging with, because it's like there is a real visceral confidence that you almost have to remember.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think there's a period where when you do this kind of work enough, it's happening on its own in a way.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you actually have to let go and let it happen.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: And there is, I think there's like a point where you have to actually be like, oh, well, I actually don't have to do anything, or I don't have to do that much at least.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: And like you can just drop into like enjoyment of whatever it is that's happening, you know, and I but with a confidence, like again, back very at the very beginning of the conversation, like that you are like being self-responsible, you know.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I remember like a yoga teacher of mine five or six years ago, she's like, you know, these people who are like like famous yogis are they're just like kids, but they've gotten to a place where they're they're so self-responsible that they can all they can enjoy life again like there are children.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's something to that, like there's like a real letting go, but it's in the adult theme, you know, it's it's more fun.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it's like going through all that stuff.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_03: So you come out on the other side and then you're like you're open and receptive to that.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_03: I know you have to go.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_03: We should probably have a whole nother talk about the receptive, the receptivity thing.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's a whole other thing, which we don't have time to get into, but being able to drop in and be receptive to just like what's there is a whole other thing.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_03: But I know you have to go.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_03: We'll share all your stuff below.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_03: And um, this was great.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 49:12
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• 49:14
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• 49:34
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• 49:38
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