Latest / Jeep Talk Show / Paul Bruno Reveals the Surprising Truth About the Jeep Name

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Paul Bruno Reveals the Surprising Truth About the Jeep Name · Jeep Talk Show

• 1:00:00
  Hi, boys and girls.
• 1:00:01
  It's time for another
• 1:00:02
  Jeep Talk Show interview.
• 1:00:03
  We're gonna be talking with Paul Bruno.
• 1:00:05
  You're no relation to
• 1:00:06
  the guy, the singer, right?
• 1:00:08
  Oh, that's Bruno Mars.
• 1:00:09
  I'm thinking of something else.
• 1:00:11
  I'll take it if I get some of his money.
• 1:00:13
  Oh, that'd be nice, wouldn't it?
• 1:00:14
  Recognized as one of the most
• 1:00:15
  knowledgeable living experts
• 1:00:17
  on the earliest
• 1:00:17
  history, origins, concepts,
• 1:00:19
  and creation, design,
• 1:00:20
  development, implementation,
• 1:00:21
  and worldwide delivery of
• 1:00:22
  the iconic Jeep vehicle,
• 1:00:25
  Paul Bruno has spent 25 years
• 1:00:27
  researching, writing,
• 1:00:29
  early Jeep history.
• 1:00:31
  We have some people on the show
• 1:00:32
  that just absolutely
• 1:00:33
  adore the early Jeeps.
• 1:00:35
  I didn't get into the whole Jeep thing,
• 1:00:37
  get interested in it
• 1:00:38
  until I was about 16, 17,
• 1:00:39
  so that would have been the CJs.
• 1:00:41
  So I really don't know a
• 1:00:43
  lot about the early Jeeps.
• 1:00:44
  I've learned a lot of it through the show
• 1:00:46
  and through some of the individuals
• 1:00:47
  that have been on the show like yourself.
• 1:00:50
  So I appreciate
• 1:00:51
  Edgemacating some of us, including me.
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  Paul has more than 35 years of experience
• 1:00:56
  in the fields of project management
• 1:00:59
  and information technology.
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  He holds a bachelor's
• 1:01:01
  degree in management
• 1:01:02
  and computer software, as
• 1:01:04
  well as a master's degree
• 1:01:05
  in business administration and history.
• 1:01:07
  Paul was previously on the show,
• 1:01:09
  I know you guys are
• 1:01:10
  remembering, episode 458,
• 1:01:13
  and that was October of 2020.
• 1:01:15
  Paul, you were just
• 1:01:16
  asking me when that was,
• 1:01:18
  because it was some time ago.
• 1:01:19
  That was, gosh, was that,
• 1:01:22
  was COVID going on then?
• 1:01:23
  I think it was.
• 1:01:24
  I think January, February,
• 1:01:27
  or March, March certainly,
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  I think of 2020 is whenever COVID
• 1:01:30
  officially hit the news
• 1:01:32
  or big time on the news.
• 1:01:35
  That's correct, and I'll look forward
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  to catching your audience
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  up on what I've been up to
• 1:01:40
  since then and link
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  all the pieces together.
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  So, but one thing I like to say,
• 1:01:44
  since we kid around here
• 1:01:45
  on the Jeep Talk Show is,
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  is luckily I'm not the, recognized
• 1:01:49
  as one of the most
• 1:01:50
  knowledgeable dead experts.
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  (Paul laughs)
• 1:01:52
  That would have been a short interview.
• 1:01:54
  You know, we're gonna have Paul up,
• 1:01:56
  but that didn't work out.
• 1:01:57
  We're not saying it
• 1:01:57
  wouldn't be interesting.
• 1:01:58
  It'd just be really short.
• 1:02:00
  So, for you guys that
• 1:02:02
  would like to know the website
• 1:02:04
  for the book and where to
• 1:02:05
  go and get more information
• 1:02:06
  about it,
• 1:02:07
  originaljeeps.com, originaljeeps.com.
• 1:02:10
  And this, the book we're
• 1:02:12
  gonna be talking about today
• 1:02:13
  and the prior book, our books,
• 1:02:16
  you can get information there,
• 1:02:17
  especially the one from the episode 458
• 1:02:19
  of our past episode.
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  I know you said your ex-wife,
• 1:02:26
  or did you say that she had passed?
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  Yeah, it was my late wife, yeah.
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  That your late wife would not approve
• 1:02:33
  of me giving you carte blanche.
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  But bring us up today,
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  Paul, the show's yours.
• 1:02:38
  All right, well, you
• 1:02:39
  know, she had to live with me.
• 1:02:41
  So that, you know, you
• 1:02:41
  only had to deal with me
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  for about an hour or less.
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  So you probably can, you know,
• 1:02:46
  you're a strong
• 1:02:47
  individual, you can handle that.
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  Yeah, so let me see if
• 1:02:50
  I could connect the dots
• 1:02:51
  for your audience in
• 1:02:52
  terms of what I've been up to.
• 1:02:55
  We'll go all the way back
• 1:02:56
  to the beginning briefly.
• 1:02:58
  And I wrote a book about the first Jeep
• 1:03:01
  called Project Management
• 1:03:03
  and History, the first Jeep.
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  And it was written from a project
• 1:03:06
  management perspective
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  and it's more of a case study book.
• 1:03:11
  And then in 2019, I
• 1:03:13
  decided that really would like
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  to rewrite it as a history book and add,
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  and I realized there was more, you know,
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  Paul Harvey, the rest of the story,
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  there was more to the story.
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  That might be, you know,
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  that's way back referenced
• 1:03:31
  when I was a kid,
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  but, and update the story
• 1:03:36
  beyond just the first Jeep.
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  And it's interesting
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  that you mentioned COVID.
• 1:03:40
  So we started in 2019 to do that project
• 1:03:44
  and early Jeep history can be broken down
• 1:03:48
  into three distinct periods.
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  Basically end of World
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  War I to October, 1940,
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  when the first Jeep
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  was tested and accepted,
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  then October, 1940 to about March, 1941,
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  when they did all the machinations
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  to get the experimental models done,
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  where they ordered 1500
• 1:04:09
  from Bantam, Ford and Willis,
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  who were the three
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  manufacturers they were dealing with.
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  And then there was a third
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  section from about April, 1941,
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  the January, 1942, where things happened.
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  And so it's really in three stages
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  and then a lot of stuff
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  going on inside those stages.
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  So the first book covered the
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  first phase to October, 1940.
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  And we had the
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  intention of the second book,
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  which we titled "The Original Jeeps"
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  to go all the way to January, 1942.
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  Well, we got up to March, 1941,
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  and the pandemic hit
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  and everything stopped.
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  And we decided that it would be too hard
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  to complete the work all the
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  way through to January, 1942.
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  So the original
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  edition of the original Jeeps
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  was came out 20-tonny,
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  covered through March, 1941,
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  and covered basically
• 1:05:11
  the original prototypes
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  and basically how
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  they got to the contract
• 1:05:16
  for the 1500 experimental models,
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  which were the BRC40, Bantam
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  Reconnaissance Car 40,
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  the Willis MA and the Ford GP.
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  And they were the successors
• 1:05:27
  to the Bantam
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  Reconnaissance Car prototype,
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  the Willis Quad prototype
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  and the Ford Picme prototype.
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  So in the interim from 2020,
• 1:05:37
  I realized that "The Original
• 1:05:39
  Jeeps" book is very detailed.
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  And it's kind of a commitment to read.
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  And I said, "What can I do to get a
• 1:05:48
  easier read out there?"
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  So in 2022, I decided to
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  tell the story in images
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  and basically created a
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  book where it's a caption,
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  a short blurb, and the pictures are
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  telling the stories.
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  And it's something
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  you can read in an hour.
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  Okay, and it gives
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  people the basic overview.
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  And the other reason I
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  wanted to do that book was,
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  well, maybe it's just me and the interest
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  to actually put in there
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  some of the actual documents
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  that no one have ever published or seen
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  from the Jeep procurement,
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  like Dan was bid proposal,
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  the June 6th, 1940 memo,
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  we kicked everything off,
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  put the actual document
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  there so the people can read
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  what the words were
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  from the actual people
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  that were the
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  documents they were producing.
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  So that came out and
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  that worked out really well.
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  Finally, this year, really
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  the beginning of this year,
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  I had known for four years,
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  I had that last piece to do
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  between April of 1941 and January 1942,
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  and the same level of
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  detail that I had done before.
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  And I'm gonna mention the court case,
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  because that is the core of the book.
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  The court case, which
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  I probably talked about
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  in the prior interview, during the war,
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  the Federal Trade
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  Commission sued Willis Overland
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  for false advertising,
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  say they'd created the Jeep.
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  They did this whole trial,
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  3,500 plus pages of testimony,
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  527 exhibits, where they
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  basically deposed anyone
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  anyone and everyone
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  who had anything to do
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  with the creation and
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  development of the Jeep in 1940
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  and 1941 in extensive detail,
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  basically a complete oral history
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  of the creation and
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  development of the Jeep.
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  Wow. Exactly.
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  Beautiful.
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  So that's what I was able
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  to put in the first book
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  and the second book.
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  So what I knew was I'd
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  went to the archives,
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  I knew to do the last
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  portion of the book,
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  that they probably had
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  the same level of detail
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  for what they did in 1941,
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  but I'd have to go back and
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  read 3,000 pages of testimony
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  because it's all
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  buried inside the testimony.
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  It's not organized in any way.
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  Sure.
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  So what I've done since I
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  started this book journey
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  in 2011, I started my
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  journey with early Jeep history
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  in 1999, trying to get
• 1:08:20
  a screenplay written,
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  produced about, a movie produced about
• 1:08:24
  the creation of the first Jeep.
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  When I found the court case,
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  I'd seem to be the only
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  one for some odd reason,
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  which it just astonishes me,
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  that thing sat around for 70 years,
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  first at the FTC and
• 1:08:37
  then at the archives,
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  that no one went in there
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  and realized what this was,
• 1:08:42
  a complete oral history by
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  the people who had done the work
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  on the whole creation
• 1:08:50
  and development of the Jeep
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  in their own words.
• 1:08:51
  And the beautiful part about this is
• 1:08:53
  it doesn't guarantee it's truthful,
• 1:08:55
  but it's more than likely truthful
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  because they were under oath.
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  So--
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  I like to say it does guarantee
• 1:09:01
  that it was truthful as possible
• 1:09:03
  because they were under oath,
• 1:09:04
  which is different from
• 1:09:05
  other oral histories where,
• 1:09:07
  well, you know, you
• 1:09:07
  interview me and I'm not under oath,
• 1:09:09
  so you might make embellish a few things.
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  I have some wonderful bullshit I can
• 1:09:14
  spend till you hear.
• 1:09:15
  Exactly, you know.
• 1:09:16
  So, and the other thing
• 1:09:17
  that was amazing about it,
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  they're under oath and you could see
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  when you read the testimony
• 1:09:21
  how seriously they took it,
• 1:09:23
  they were nervous.
• 1:09:23
  Some of these people
• 1:09:25
  that were testifying,
• 1:09:26
  you can actually read it in their words.
• 1:09:28
  Well, they had to be very careful.
• 1:09:30
  They had to be very careful.
• 1:09:31
  They were coming across honestly.
• 1:09:33
  It's wonderful.
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  I mean, that's a treasure trove.
• 1:09:36
  It's a treasure.
• 1:09:36
  I call it the holy grail.
• 1:09:37
  Yeah.
• 1:09:38
  Literally of early Jeep
• 1:09:39
  history, this court case,
• 1:09:42
  and not only did they have all the
• 1:09:44
  testimony for the people,
• 1:09:46
  it was also just a few years after they
• 1:09:48
  had done everything.
• 1:09:49
  It wasn't like 30 years later.
• 1:09:50
  It was done during the war, 1944, 1945.
• 1:09:54
  So it was only two or
• 1:09:55
  three, four years before.
• 1:09:56
  So all the people were alive.
• 1:09:58
  All the people still had good memories,
• 1:10:00
  and they went through in
• 1:10:01
  meticulous detail, okay,
• 1:10:04
  of every single phase of the Jeep.
• 1:10:06
  So when I read the 3,000 pages
• 1:10:10
  to create what we call
• 1:10:11
  the expanded edition,
• 1:10:12
  which is why I'm on your show
• 1:10:13
  today, of the original Jeeps,
• 1:10:16
  the cover of the
• 1:10:17
  period between April, 1941,
• 1:10:19
  and January, 1942, they
• 1:10:20
  had all the detail in it.
• 1:10:22
  On the four major milestones,
• 1:10:25
  which were they decided to,
• 1:10:29
  they were testing the vehicles,
• 1:10:30
  and I have a whole chapter on
• 1:10:32
  the testing they did in 1941.
• 1:10:34
  I have test reports
• 1:10:35
  that they did everything.
• 1:10:36
  And I put some of that in
• 1:10:37
  there to give people a flavor
• 1:10:39
  of how detailed they went into
• 1:10:41
  to test those experimental
• 1:10:43
  models I mentioned before.
• 1:10:44
  They ordered the
• 1:10:45
  1,500 experimental models
• 1:10:47
  from all three vendors to test them
• 1:10:50
  and combine them
• 1:10:51
  eventually into one vehicle
• 1:10:53
  to have the best
• 1:10:54
  vehicle possible as it evolved
• 1:10:56
  from the prototypes to
• 1:10:58
  the experimental models.
• 1:10:59
  Well, then I have all the documentation
• 1:11:02
  when they decided we are
• 1:11:03
  cutting off the testing,
• 1:11:05
  and we're gonna go out and
• 1:11:06
  get 16,000 of these vehicles.
• 1:11:10
  And that's from a year
• 1:11:11
  before, literally, exactly a year.
• 1:11:14
  Where they were going for 70.
• 1:11:17
  And so you see as the
• 1:11:19
  evolution progresses,
• 1:11:21
  you also see through the testimony
• 1:11:23
  how they started to realize
• 1:11:25
  this is something they
• 1:11:26
  had never dealt with before,
• 1:11:27
  because you're right back with these
• 1:11:29
  people in the 1940s,
• 1:11:30
  okay, when we're reading this,
• 1:11:32
  the magnitude of World War II
• 1:11:34
  had not dawned on any
• 1:11:35
  of these people in 1940.
• 1:11:37
  You can see it.
• 1:11:37
  It's like, we just want 70.
• 1:11:39
  You know, hey, that's it.
• 1:11:40
  And literally a year
• 1:11:41
  later, they're going for 16,000,
• 1:11:43
  which is what, 200%,
• 1:11:44
  2,000, whatever the numbers are.
• 1:11:46
  That's a big number difference, yeah.
• 1:11:48
  Yeah, big number difference.
• 1:11:49
  And so then there was also,
• 1:11:51
  and I'll give you one
• 1:11:52
  example, two examples,
• 1:11:55
  a tremendous amount of detail
• 1:11:56
  on how they evolved to the MB from the MA
• 1:12:00
  when Willis won that contract,
• 1:12:01
  stuff never before published anywhere,
• 1:12:03
  all in the court testimony.
• 1:12:05
  And then also the absolute detail
• 1:12:08
  on how Ford was
• 1:12:09
  brought back into the fold
• 1:12:12
  for Jeep production,
• 1:12:14
  all the stuff and the
• 1:12:15
  new chapters that we wrote
• 1:12:17
  to the original Jeeps.
• 1:12:18
  And then I found some information
• 1:12:20
  that I hadn't had before.
• 1:12:23
  So I updated the current text too
• 1:12:25
  with some extra information.
• 1:12:27
  But just to give you one
• 1:12:28
  example, never published anywhere.
• 1:12:31
  In the court, they had the guy testify.
• 1:12:33
  Now this is one of the people,
• 1:12:34
  he was one of the key people
• 1:12:35
  of the three or four people
• 1:12:37
  that worked on the Willis vehicles,
• 1:12:39
  that worked on the quad.
• 1:12:40
  He worked on the Willis MA,
• 1:12:42
  he worked on the Willis MB.
• 1:12:43
  He went back to the
• 1:12:44
  office, they were in Toledo,
• 1:12:46
  came back and read into the testimony
• 1:12:49
  the 38 major
• 1:12:50
  modifications to the Willis MB
• 1:12:52
  from the time it went
• 1:12:53
  into production to 1944,
• 1:12:56
  which 10 pages of beautiful
• 1:12:59
  detail of what the change was
• 1:13:02
  and when it went into production
• 1:13:03
  where you can read through this
• 1:13:05
  and it's in chronological order,
• 1:13:07
  exactly how the vehicle
• 1:13:09
  evolved during the war
• 1:13:11
  in terms of becoming the
• 1:13:12
  Willis MB that it was by 1945.
• 1:13:15
  It's unbelievable, that level of detail.
• 1:13:17
  It's nowhere else.
• 1:13:19
  And you had no idea,
• 1:13:21
  doing the book you
• 1:13:22
  found out about this stuff.
• 1:13:24
  I bet you couldn't
• 1:13:25
  believe what you had found.
• 1:13:26
  I was stunned.
• 1:13:27
  I mean, literally, even after all the
• 1:13:30
  other amazing tidbits,
• 1:13:32
  and I'll just give
• 1:13:32
  one from the beginning,
• 1:13:34
  yeah, reading along,
• 1:13:35
  and this is what I mean,
• 1:13:36
  you have to read the testimony.
• 1:13:37
  It's question, answer, question, answer.
• 1:13:39
  You can't skip any of it.
• 1:13:40
  So I'm reading along
• 1:13:41
  and I get the page, TAY91,
• 1:13:43
  and it goes, "Now, Mr.
• 1:13:44
  McCaslin, you went back to the office
• 1:13:46
  and you now have the document,
• 1:13:47
  you're gonna read into the testimony
• 1:13:49
  of the 38 major
• 1:13:50
  changes made to the Willis MB
• 1:13:52
  since the start of production.
• 1:13:54
  There's been 250 to 300,
• 1:13:55
  but these are the major
• 1:13:57
  changes from your perspective
• 1:13:59
  and your teeth's perspective."
• 1:14:00
  It's like, are you kidding me?
• 1:14:02
  It's like, who has this?
• 1:14:05
  So it's really invaluable information
• 1:14:08
  in terms of something to wanna see,
• 1:14:10
  the Jeep that won the war, how it evolved
• 1:14:12
  to be able to really
• 1:14:15
  function in any and all environments
• 1:14:18
  around the world, from
• 1:14:19
  sub-freezing temperatures
• 1:14:20
  to tropical heat, just remarkable.
• 1:14:23
  Oh, it's an amazing thing.
• 1:14:25
  And in that 3,500 pages
• 1:14:28
  that you were reading through,
• 1:14:30
  you haven't found anything
• 1:14:31
  about the reverse alien technology.
• 1:14:33
  And the reason why Jeep is so good
• 1:14:35
  is because it was
• 1:14:35
  actually created by aliens.
• 1:14:38
  Well, the only problem with that is,
• 1:14:40
  Roswell didn't happen in 1947.
• 1:14:43
  Well, that's what they tell us.
• 1:14:44
  They couldn't say
• 1:14:45
  anything until the aliens landed
• 1:14:47
  and then they would have copped to it,
• 1:14:49
  but it's pretty amazing.
• 1:14:52
  So you were talking
• 1:14:53
  about how writing the book
• 1:14:55
  and how coming up with a book
• 1:14:56
  and your first book being
• 1:14:58
  really detailed and factual,
• 1:14:59
  and how do you make
• 1:15:00
  the book, not your words,
• 1:15:02
  but my words, more entertaining,
• 1:15:04
  more easier to stay involved in.
• 1:15:08
  And I can't help but think
• 1:15:10
  that you've been asked a number of times,
• 1:15:12
  and I don't know if you
• 1:15:12
  cover this in your book,
• 1:15:14
  where did the name Jeep come from?
• 1:15:16
  That's some basic things that
• 1:15:18
  is probably insulting to you
• 1:15:20
  because there's so
• 1:15:20
  much more detail in here
• 1:15:22
  than where the word Jeep came from.
• 1:15:24
  But it's that kind of stuff that people,
• 1:15:26
  they wonder about,
• 1:15:27
  because Jeep is kind of a strange name
• 1:15:30
  for the call something.
• 1:15:32
  Right, and actually
• 1:15:34
  that's a great question, okay?
• 1:15:37
  Right in the wheelhouse
• 1:15:38
  because they spent a lot of time
• 1:15:42
  during deposing
• 1:15:43
  everyone on the court case,
• 1:15:45
  trying to figure out
• 1:15:46
  when the Jeep name was--
• 1:15:48
  Oh really?
• 1:15:50
  Interesting.
• 1:15:51
  Because the initial
• 1:15:53
  moniker for the vehicles
• 1:15:55
  was quarter ton four by four light,
• 1:15:58
  because it was only
• 1:15:59
  supposed to weigh 1,250 pounds.
• 1:16:01
  And it was supposed to replace the
• 1:16:04
  motorcycle with sidecar
• 1:16:06
  and the mule.
• 1:16:09
  And between that, the motorcycle sidecar
• 1:16:12
  weighs about 500
• 1:16:12
  pounds and a half ton truck.
• 1:16:14
  So I've talked about it before
• 1:16:16
  where they just came up with this figure,
• 1:16:18
  well, it's gonna weigh 1,250 pounds
• 1:16:20
  without asking anybody.
• 1:16:21
  And that was a massive issue.
• 1:16:24
  Oh yeah.
• 1:16:25
  And the whole Jeep procurement.
• 1:16:27
  But what happened was,
• 1:16:29
  this is testimony that
• 1:16:30
  I read for this update
• 1:16:32
  that I hadn't read before,
• 1:16:33
  because I saw these names and I'm like,
• 1:16:35
  who are these people?
• 1:16:37
  They're like nothing,
• 1:16:38
  they're like not anybody.
• 1:16:40
  So I decided to read their testimony.
• 1:16:41
  They actually had
• 1:16:42
  these two people come in
• 1:16:44
  and testify that they
• 1:16:45
  were calling things Jeeps
• 1:16:47
  the year before the Jeep was begun,
• 1:16:50
  or before the Jeep whole quarter ton.
• 1:16:52
  What happened was they
• 1:16:54
  called a lot of things
• 1:16:56
  in that time period vehicles Jeeps.
• 1:16:58
  It was just kind of
• 1:16:58
  like this generic term.
• 1:17:00
  So when the quarter ton
• 1:17:02
  started arriving in Holobird
• 1:17:03
  in the fall of 1940,
• 1:17:05
  they actually called them the
• 1:17:06
  Bantam, the Willis, the Ford,
• 1:17:10
  but they also said,
• 1:17:10
  hey, bring that Jeep out.
• 1:17:12
  And they, oh yeah, we knew what it was.
• 1:17:13
  And somehow it kind of
• 1:17:14
  evolved between October, 1940
• 1:17:19
  into early 1941,
• 1:17:20
  where the term Jeep
• 1:17:22
  just was singularly applied
• 1:17:23
  to the quarter tons.
• 1:17:25
  It really wasn't someone named it.
• 1:17:27
  It really was someone didn't name it.
• 1:17:30
  It was an evolution.
• 1:17:31
  And that's what the
• 1:17:32
  court case came to decide.
• 1:17:34
  It was a major thing
• 1:17:34
  that decided because,
• 1:17:36
  hey, Willis is saying,
• 1:17:37
  hey, we created the Jeep.
• 1:17:38
  Well, how did the Jeep name get in?
• 1:17:40
  The court case basically came,
• 1:17:41
  we will never know exactly
• 1:17:44
  who called it a Jeep first
• 1:17:45
  because it was such a
• 1:17:47
  common term that they used,
• 1:17:48
  which is why they had
• 1:17:49
  that people testify.
• 1:17:51
  They were calling
• 1:17:52
  these other vehicles Jeeps
• 1:17:53
  because that was just this slang,
• 1:17:55
  generic term that people used.
• 1:17:57
  And so that was a major
• 1:17:59
  thing in the court case.
• 1:18:00
  It's a really great question.
• 1:18:01
  There's so much that I
• 1:18:02
  want to just point out.
• 1:18:03
  One of the things my book does,
• 1:18:05
  and I am now calling it humbly,
• 1:18:07
  because I am a humble guy.
• 1:18:08
  Okay, maybe I'm not that all that humble.
• 1:18:10
  It's literally the Magnum Opus
• 1:18:13
  of the creation
• 1:18:14
  development of the Jeep now.
• 1:18:16
  The earlier version, which only went
• 1:18:18
  through March of 41,
• 1:18:19
  one of the reviewers on Amazon said,
• 1:18:22
  no better account of
• 1:18:24
  the creation of the Jeep
• 1:18:25
  has been written.
• 1:18:26
  And now that it goes through the entirety
• 1:18:29
  of the whole process right
• 1:18:30
  up to January 1942 in detail,
• 1:18:34
  no book has ever been written like this,
• 1:18:37
  the original Jeeps that covers the
• 1:18:39
  creation development
• 1:18:40
  of the Jeep and the historical accuracy
• 1:18:43
  using all this stuff from the court case,
• 1:18:45
  the people who actually did it,
• 1:18:47
  and all the documents from there
• 1:18:49
  and then everything else I found,
• 1:18:50
  which supplemented that, ever done.
• 1:18:53
  And it stuns me, because I actually,
• 1:18:55
  I'm kind of like, who
• 1:18:56
  the heck am I to do this?
• 1:18:57
  But I just had the
• 1:18:58
  perseverance just to keep going.
• 1:19:00
  And I enjoy this stuff, I'm wired for it,
• 1:19:04
  so on and so forth.
• 1:19:05
  And so really, so one of
• 1:19:08
  the things my book does
• 1:19:10
  is it dispels all,
• 1:19:12
  there's so many myths out there
• 1:19:14
  in this early Jeep history period.
• 1:19:16
  But before you go into that,
• 1:19:17
  let me just make a connection here
• 1:19:19
  and see if you've
• 1:19:19
  already made this connection.
• 1:19:20
  So it amazes me about the Jeep name.
• 1:19:25
  You know that people
• 1:19:27
  name their Jeeps things,
• 1:19:29
  but for them, they
• 1:19:30
  don't actually name it.
• 1:19:31
  Somebody else has to name it.
• 1:19:33
  It's like being given a nickname,
• 1:19:34
  your friends or enemies or whatever
• 1:19:36
  has to give you the nickname.
• 1:19:38
  So Jeep is actually a nickname
• 1:19:41
  of this critter that they built.
• 1:19:44
  So Jeep, the Jeep name
• 1:19:46
  is actually a nickname.
• 1:19:47
  (laughs)
• 1:19:49
  And it was doing the nickname thing
• 1:19:51
  before Jeeps were invented
• 1:19:52
  and before people were
• 1:19:54
  putting their nicknames on Jeeps.
• 1:19:56
  And I think that is so cool
• 1:19:58
  that the name is a nickname.
• 1:19:59
  I still don't know where Jeep came from.
• 1:20:01
  I don't know why
• 1:20:02
  anybody is in their right mind
• 1:20:04
  how you would come up with Jeep,
• 1:20:06
  unless it was, if the timing is right,
• 1:20:08
  if it was Popeye and Eugene, the Jeep,
• 1:20:10
  to go anywhere, a little animal
• 1:20:12
  that would pop in and out of existence.
• 1:20:14
  But I think that that
• 1:20:14
  actually was happening
• 1:20:16
  after the Jeep was built.
• 1:20:17
  So it just sounds like
• 1:20:19
  a weird thing to say,
• 1:20:20
  call things a Jeep, but
• 1:20:22
  very, very interesting.
• 1:20:23
  I had no idea about that.
• 1:20:25
  Yeah, that's a really
• 1:20:25
  good point, actually,
• 1:20:27
  because it was a nickname.
• 1:20:29
  Now where the term
• 1:20:30
  Jeep came from in the 30s,
• 1:20:32
  I really have no idea.
• 1:20:34
  Then we hear it.
• 1:20:34
  And it was a generic term.
• 1:20:36
  And then it just got applied,
• 1:20:38
  because again, the official
• 1:20:40
  moniker throughout the war,
• 1:20:43
  even up to today, is it's the quarter,
• 1:20:46
  one quarter ton four by four light,
• 1:20:49
  which is really amazing,
• 1:20:50
  because they never
• 1:20:51
  changed that title of it,
• 1:20:54
  even though the eventual
• 1:20:56
  weight they came for the vehicle
• 1:20:57
  was 2,160 pounds.
• 1:20:59
  Yeah, I was gonna say,
• 1:21:00
  it wasn't anywhere close to the 1250.
• 1:21:02
  Yeah, I remember that.
• 1:21:03
  But I think they kept
• 1:21:06
  calling it the quarter ton
• 1:21:07
  throughout, even in the court case,
• 1:21:09
  throughout the war and beyond.
• 1:21:11
  And so it was
• 1:21:12
  distinguished from half ton trucks
• 1:21:14
  and other half ton vehicles,
• 1:21:16
  because they renamed it the
• 1:21:17
  half ton four by four light,
• 1:21:20
  which really isn't all that light.
• 1:21:22
  It wouldn't have made any sense.
• 1:21:23
  So the army just kept that quarter ton,
• 1:21:25
  and never weighed a quarter ton, ever.
• 1:21:28
  Now one of the brothers,
• 1:21:29
  so again, it's one of
• 1:21:30
  those quirks of the whole thing
• 1:21:32
  that came in in terms of the procurement.
• 1:21:38
  I'll just give you one other example.
• 1:21:39
  I was reading recently,
• 1:21:41
  how did Ford get their license?
• 1:21:43
  And someone's reading online and it says,
• 1:21:45
  well, there was some
• 1:21:46
  chance meeting with Edsel Ford,
• 1:21:47
  and all of a sudden they had a license.
• 1:21:50
  No, that's not what happened.
• 1:21:52
  It's right in the court case.
• 1:21:53
  The army was figuring
• 1:21:56
  after they'd given the 16,000
• 1:21:58
  to Willis in early August, 1941,
• 1:22:02
  by September, they're going like,
• 1:22:04
  we're gonna need a bigger boat.
• 1:22:05
  It's like Jaws, okay?
• 1:22:07
  It's like, we're gonna need a lot more
• 1:22:09
  than 16,000 of these things, right?
• 1:22:12
  And so they're looking
• 1:22:12
  around and they're going like,
• 1:22:14
  well, how do we get a second supplier?
• 1:22:16
  So they reached out to Willis.
• 1:22:19
  Now I missed it in one of the documents.
• 1:22:20
  I said early October, it was
• 1:22:22
  actually October 3rd, 1941.
• 1:22:24
  In the documentation,
• 1:22:25
  Willis had the exact date
• 1:22:26
  they were contacted, I
• 1:22:27
  think it was by telephone.
• 1:22:29
  And they said, it was
• 1:22:30
  kind of the godfather.
• 1:22:31
  Yeah, we're gonna make you
• 1:22:33
  an offer you can't refuse.
• 1:22:35
  What would you like?
• 1:22:36
  What would it take to
• 1:22:37
  have a second supplier?
• 1:22:39
  And so Willis is like,
• 1:22:40
  probably didn't wanna do it,
• 1:22:41
  but it's like, well, we
• 1:22:42
  really need this contract.
• 1:22:44
  So they wrote a letter
• 1:22:45
  on October 10th saying,
• 1:22:47
  here's what we need to make
• 1:22:50
  sure we have a second supplier
• 1:22:52
  who would build our
• 1:22:53
  vehicle under license.
• 1:22:54
  It would be exactly our vehicle.
• 1:22:56
  And I had that letter.
• 1:22:58
  I put it in the book.
• 1:22:59
  It's like, gee, right?
• 1:23:01
  And then the
• 1:23:01
  quartermaster got ahold of that
• 1:23:03
  within two weeks, they'd let
• 1:23:04
  a contract for 15,000 of Ford
• 1:23:06
  underneath that letter.
• 1:23:09
  Cause they wanted Ford on board,
• 1:23:10
  but that's how it came about.
• 1:23:12
  The quartermaster was
• 1:23:13
  saying, we might need this.
• 1:23:14
  They reached out to Willis.
• 1:23:16
  Willis said what they would need.
• 1:23:17
  And the quartermaster
• 1:23:18
  took what they said and said,
• 1:23:20
  we're gonna create a
• 1:23:21
  licensing agreement underneath this
• 1:23:24
  based upon what Willis
• 1:23:25
  said and give it to Ford.
• 1:23:27
  And Ford, this is where you get the GPW.
• 1:23:30
  Their experimental model was the GP.
• 1:23:33
  G was for government.
• 1:23:34
  P was for 80 inch wheel base.
• 1:23:36
  They named it the GPW cause
• 1:23:38
  it was then the GPW Willis.
• 1:23:40
  That's how you got that name.
• 1:23:42
  And they built the Willis under license.
• 1:23:44
  And one of the things
• 1:23:45
  they wanted to make sure was
• 1:23:46
  there was exact standardization
• 1:23:48
  between the two throughout the war.
• 1:23:50
  And they testified how they did that.
• 1:23:52
  So I put that in the book.
• 1:23:53
  Here's how they made sure
• 1:23:55
  the Willis MB and the Ford GPW
• 1:23:57
  were exact, the same exact model,
• 1:24:01
  just being built by two
• 1:24:02
  different manufacturers.
• 1:24:02
  That would be tough
• 1:24:03
  because you got to figure that
• 1:24:05
  the different
• 1:24:05
  manufacturer wants to do something
• 1:24:07
  a little different, engineers and people
• 1:24:09
  that are doing things, but
• 1:24:10
  it would be important for them
• 1:24:11
  to be the same, especially
• 1:24:13
  when they're out in the field
• 1:24:14
  and being worked on to get
• 1:24:16
  soldiers from point A to point B.
• 1:24:17
  So that's pretty damn amazing.
• 1:24:19
  Yeah, right.
• 1:24:20
  And that's a really good point.
• 1:24:21
  It's really tough.
• 1:24:23
  And it was one of the major
• 1:24:25
  things that was the problem
• 1:24:26
  in World War I was lack of
• 1:24:28
  interchangeability of parts
• 1:24:29
  and standardization among
• 1:24:30
  all the vehicles they had
• 1:24:31
  over there in France, it was a nightmare.
• 1:24:33
  And all these people were in
• 1:24:35
  the now in their 40s and 50s,
• 1:24:37
  they all remembered that.
• 1:24:38
  So they were fanatical
• 1:24:40
  about making sure things were
• 1:24:41
  standard and they went
• 1:24:43
  through in the detail,
• 1:24:45
  going to your point of
• 1:24:46
  how difficult it was.
• 1:24:47
  Here's everything we had
• 1:24:48
  to do on the Willis side
• 1:24:49
  and the Ford people testified.
• 1:24:51
  Here's everything I had
• 1:24:51
  to do on the Ford side
• 1:24:52
  to make sure these stayed always in
• 1:24:56
  exactly the same model
• 1:24:59
  and nobody went in
• 1:25:00
  another different direction.
• 1:25:01
  You say, cause it's just easy to do.
• 1:25:02
  Oh yeah.
• 1:25:03
  And the communication
• 1:25:04
  level they have to have.
• 1:25:05
  It may have been a great idea,
• 1:25:06
  but you can't non-standardize it
• 1:25:08
  because it's going to screw something up.
• 1:25:11
  Weren't things, and
• 1:25:12
  then you may not know this,
• 1:25:13
  but weren't things in
• 1:25:14
  the 30s more handmade?
• 1:25:16
  I mean, it wasn't Henry
• 1:25:17
  Ford that actually started
• 1:25:19
  with the replication of the
• 1:25:21
  same part over and over again
• 1:25:23
  and made the vehicles inexpensive.
• 1:25:25
  So I would have well
• 1:25:26
  imagined that World War I,
• 1:25:27
  a lot of stuff was handmade.
• 1:25:30
  Well, again, to your audience,
• 1:25:32
  we did actually not set this question up.
• 1:25:34
  This is just happening.
• 1:25:35
  But that's another great point.
• 1:25:36
  You say, Paul, why is that?
• 1:25:38
  Thanks for asking.
• 1:25:40
  What happened was when
• 1:25:42
  everything was handmade
• 1:25:43
  in World War I, World War II,
• 1:25:44
  they had manufacturing, right?
• 1:25:46
  But for the prototypes, it was such a,
• 1:25:49
  and this is going back
• 1:25:50
  to the summer of 1940.
• 1:25:52
  So when Bannon was
• 1:25:53
  building their prototype,
• 1:25:55
  which ended up being the
• 1:25:55
  Bannon Reconnaissance Car,
• 1:25:57
  and Willis was building their prototype,
• 1:25:59
  which ended up being the Quad, okay?
• 1:26:02
  And then later on in the fall,
• 1:26:03
  when Ford built their
• 1:26:05
  prototype, the Pygmy,
• 1:26:06
  they were all handmade from scratch,
• 1:26:09
  handmade, the parts put in, everything.
• 1:26:12
  So going to your point,
• 1:26:13
  and that's one of the things
• 1:26:14
  that points I've made in the book is,
• 1:26:16
  in all three of the manufacturers,
• 1:26:18
  but especially Bannon and Willis,
• 1:26:20
  these were vastly experienced car people.
• 1:26:25
  And in that era, from 1900 to 1940,
• 1:26:29
  the people that were
• 1:26:30
  involved in vehicles,
• 1:26:32
  it was a very much,
• 1:26:33
  exactly to your point,
• 1:26:34
  a hands-on, even with
• 1:26:36
  all of them in the back.
• 1:26:36
  They were artists, really.
• 1:26:38
  Yes, they were artists, they were
• 1:26:40
  mechanical geniuses.
• 1:26:43
  And that comes out in the book.
• 1:26:45
  So in the original Jeeps, and the detail,
• 1:26:48
  in terms of the
• 1:26:49
  hands-on knowledge they had,
• 1:26:51
  where they could actually build parts
• 1:26:53
  and then do the drawing
• 1:26:54
  after the parts were made.
• 1:26:55
  Oh, interesting, that's cool.
• 1:26:57
  That sounds like the way I do things.
• 1:26:59
  That's not how you're supposed to do it,
• 1:27:01
  but when Bannon only
• 1:27:02
  had 49 days, they said,
• 1:27:04
  "Yeah, well, you know, we're
• 1:27:05
  gonna break all the rules,"
• 1:27:06
  and they did, so.
• 1:27:08
  It amazes me that
• 1:27:10
  they developed something
• 1:27:11
  that was just so phenomenal.
• 1:27:14
  And was this case to
• 1:27:17
  figure out who it was
• 1:27:18
  that came up with the best design,
• 1:27:20
  the one that really
• 1:27:21
  was the genius behind it,
• 1:27:23
  the manufacturer that was behind it?
• 1:27:25
  Well, again, what the book documents is,
• 1:27:28
  the infantry's testing in the late 30s,
• 1:27:30
  where they were looking for a vehicle,
• 1:27:32
  they knew they had this mobility problem.
• 1:27:34
  And then they get to 1940
• 1:27:36
  and they have no solutions.
• 1:27:37
  And then through this whole series
• 1:27:39
  of miraculous circumstances,
• 1:27:41
  Bannon gets married up with the infantry,
• 1:27:43
  they come out with the June 6th memo,
• 1:27:45
  okay, and this is all
• 1:27:47
  documented in the book in detail,
• 1:27:49
  saying, "Here's the
• 1:27:50
  general idea of what we want."
• 1:27:52
  And so then they went through and they
• 1:27:54
  got to later in June
• 1:27:56
  and it was basically, it's a
• 1:27:59
  long story, it's in the book,
• 1:28:00
  how they got to the Ordus department,
• 1:28:01
  and the Ordus department said,
• 1:28:03
  "We have no idea how
• 1:28:05
  to procure a vehicle.
• 1:28:06
  How about we go up the
• 1:28:07
  butler and talk to some people,
• 1:28:09
  because we really have no
• 1:28:11
  clue beyond the general,
• 1:28:13
  very general
• 1:28:14
  characteristics in this June 6th memo."
• 1:28:16
  Well, in one of the two most important
• 1:28:18
  days in Jeep history,
• 1:28:20
  June 19th to 20th, 1940, in Butler,
• 1:28:22
  they went up there and had
• 1:28:24
  a whole bunch of discussions
• 1:28:25
  between the Army and Butler team
• 1:28:29
  and Spicer-Axel team who
• 1:28:31
  had to create the axle.
• 1:28:33
  And then after that conference,
• 1:28:35
  they had a better
• 1:28:36
  understanding of what was to happen.
• 1:28:38
  Now, let me give you an
• 1:28:39
  example from the court case.
• 1:28:40
  Now, most people will be able to say,
• 1:28:42
  "Well, they went to Butler
• 1:28:44
  and they had some discussions
• 1:28:46
  and by the end of those two days,
• 1:28:48
  they had a basic idea of
• 1:28:50
  what they were gonna do."
• 1:28:51
  No, not in the magnum opus.
• 1:28:54
  In the court case, the
• 1:28:57
  head of Bantam named Frank Fen
• 1:28:59
  detailed every single thing they did
• 1:29:02
  from the time they
• 1:29:04
  arrived in Butler, the Army,
• 1:29:06
  till they left on June 20th,
• 1:29:09
  including massive detail
• 1:29:11
  on everything that happened
• 1:29:12
  on June 19th, 1940, in
• 1:29:14
  terms of they came in,
• 1:29:16
  we went to the
• 1:29:17
  fairgrounds, we discussed this,
• 1:29:18
  Mr. Chris took them
• 1:29:19
  on a tour of the plant,
• 1:29:20
  I discussed this with this.
• 1:29:22
  And then this is the great,
• 1:29:24
  this is the stuff that just,
• 1:29:25
  it bowls you over
• 1:29:26
  when you're reading this.
• 1:29:26
  Then it said, "Now, there was a line,
• 1:29:28
  I saw this drawing that would say,
• 1:29:31
  well, we believe this
• 1:29:33
  is the first drawing
• 1:29:35
  of a Jeep-like vehicle drawn in 1940,
• 1:29:38
  but we're not sure where
• 1:29:39
  it was drawn and who drew it
• 1:29:41
  and why, dudes, that
• 1:29:44
  drawing is in the court case
• 1:29:46
  and Frank Fen testified
• 1:29:48
  that at the end of the day
• 1:29:49
  on June 19th, 1940,
• 1:29:51
  Mr. Beasley and Mr. Brown
• 1:29:53
  took a yellow scratch pad
• 1:29:55
  like this person's holding
• 1:29:56
  in their hand, he's
• 1:29:57
  pointing in the courtroom
• 1:29:58
  and drew a drawing of what they thought
• 1:30:01
  the vehicle would look like in Beelie.
• 1:30:04
  And so now you know who drew it,
• 1:30:07
  Mr. Brown and Mr.
• 1:30:08
  Beasley, when they drew it,
• 1:30:09
  drew 1940 at 5 p.m. and why they drew it,
• 1:30:12
  it was at the end of the
• 1:30:13
  day in terms of coalescing
• 1:30:17
  all the ideas they had had.
• 1:30:19
  Amazing.
• 1:30:20
  Yeah, amazing, and I'm like,
• 1:30:21
  why am I the only one
• 1:30:23
  that found this out?
• 1:30:24
  That says, so me
• 1:30:25
  being me, because Humble,
• 1:30:27
  remember that's the theme of this.
• 1:30:28
  Mr. Humble, we're
• 1:30:29
  gonna call you Mr. Humble.
• 1:30:31
  So I decided, well, since I have it,
• 1:30:33
  I will give it its own name,
• 1:30:35
  so I called it the Beasley Brown drawing.
• 1:30:36
  There you go.
• 1:30:37
  They're never giving it a name.
• 1:30:39
  Because they're the
• 1:30:39
  two guys that drew it.
• 1:30:40
  Well, you gotta be able to reference it.
• 1:30:42
  I mean, and Jeep has already taken,
• 1:30:44
  so it makes perfect sense.
• 1:30:45
  Oh yes, thanks for
• 1:30:46
  working with my ego here.
• 1:30:48
  It's good, Tony, I appreciate that.
• 1:30:50
  So other questions that
• 1:30:52
  are coming to your mind.
• 1:30:53
  So one of the questions I had,
• 1:30:55
  this is going back a while,
• 1:30:57
  but I didn't wanna stop you.
• 1:30:59
  The documents and
• 1:31:00
  stuff that you're using,
• 1:31:01
  drawings especially, is
• 1:31:03
  there any copyright issues
• 1:31:05
  that you had to go through on that?
• 1:31:07
  I don't know a lot about copyright.
• 1:31:09
  There may be, it may
• 1:31:10
  be like the Disney thing
• 1:31:11
  where everybody can use Mickey Mouse now.
• 1:31:13
  (laughs)
• 1:31:14
  Because it has a statute of
• 1:31:15
  limitations type thing on it.
• 1:31:17
  Well, the good news, and
• 1:31:20
  that's another great question.
• 1:31:21
  Actually, should I not
• 1:31:22
  have asked that question?
• 1:31:23
  I'm sorry.
• 1:31:23
  No, no, no, actually
• 1:31:24
  it's really good news.
• 1:31:25
  Because I'm an American
• 1:31:26
  taxpayer, so are you, right?
• 1:31:27
  Yep.
• 1:31:28
  So anything that's
• 1:31:31
  created by the government
• 1:31:33
  that's been declassified
• 1:31:35
  is in the public domain.
• 1:31:36
  Gotcha.
• 1:31:36
  Because we paid for it.
• 1:31:38
  So all the
• 1:31:39
  documentation from the archives,
• 1:31:42
  including the Beasley Brown
• 1:31:43
  drawing, it's public domain.
• 1:31:45
  Gotcha, okay.
• 1:31:46
  So I could use all the testimony.
• 1:31:47
  It sounds like wonderful
• 1:31:48
  stuff to have in the book,
• 1:31:49
  but I'm thinking, oh, you
• 1:31:51
  had to be a little concerned
• 1:31:52
  about who might come back on you on that.
• 1:31:54
  But yeah, if it's in the public domain,
• 1:31:56
  that actually absolutely makes sense.
• 1:31:58
  And I knew that, I double checked it.
• 1:31:59
  Federal government
• 1:32:00
  documents, every single thing.
• 1:32:02
  Now there's other
• 1:32:03
  things I used in the book
• 1:32:04
  that I had to give credit
• 1:32:05
  for and stuff like that.
• 1:32:06
  I knew, but all the documentation,
• 1:32:09
  all the Bana's bid proposal, the drawing,
• 1:32:13
  Beasley Brown drawing,
• 1:32:15
  Willis documentation,
• 1:32:17
  all the stuff that's in the court case,
• 1:32:18
  and any other documents I
• 1:32:20
  found outside of the court case
• 1:32:22
  at the National
• 1:32:22
  Archives, all public documents
• 1:32:25
  that anyone can use for their purposes.
• 1:32:28
  And even photographs,
• 1:32:29
  which if they're created
• 1:32:31
  by the government,
• 1:32:33
  they're also public domain.
• 1:32:35
  I like that, that's good, it makes sense.
• 1:32:36
  It does make sense.
• 1:32:38
  So I got a question for you.
• 1:32:39
  And you've already
• 1:32:40
  mentioned several things
• 1:32:41
  that were surprising and
• 1:32:43
  shocking that you found.
• 1:32:44
  I mean, just having the
• 1:32:45
  documentation was surprising,
• 1:32:46
  and the level of detail and accuracy.
• 1:32:49
  Was there anything that you
• 1:32:50
  were just blown away about
• 1:32:53
  reading in that
• 1:32:53
  document, the court document,
• 1:32:56
  the 3,500 pages, something
• 1:32:58
  that being a big history buff
• 1:33:01
  and jeep buff, and you went, I did not
• 1:33:03
  realize that was that
• 1:33:05
  or that was there or
• 1:33:07
  anything come to mind.
• 1:33:08
  Don't feel bad if you
• 1:33:09
  can't think of anything, but.
• 1:33:11
  Oh, no, no, again,
• 1:33:13
  appreciate the question.
• 1:33:14
  I think there was a lot of those moments,
• 1:33:16
  like the June 19th moment I mentioned,
• 1:33:19
  they deposed, I didn't
• 1:33:21
  mention this, on the Ford license,
• 1:33:23
  they actually deposed
• 1:33:24
  the lawyer for Willis
• 1:33:25
  who developed the whole license.
• 1:33:27
  They explained it in detail.
• 1:33:29
  But one good one is I'm reading through
• 1:33:32
  and I didn't know this,
• 1:33:33
  and I didn't see it out there
• 1:33:35
  anywhere near, again,
• 1:33:36
  another one of those aha moments
• 1:33:38
  that the Willis quad
• 1:33:40
  failed in the testing.
• 1:33:43
  And Willis was gonna be
• 1:33:45
  eliminated from the competition
• 1:33:48
  in January, 1941.
• 1:33:50
  And the quartermaster
• 1:33:52
  themselves wrote a memo
• 1:33:54
  that the second in
• 1:33:55
  command, a guy named Barzinski,
• 1:33:58
  pleading with the chief of staff,
• 1:34:00
  which was George Marshall's office,
• 1:34:02
  that we can't allow this to happen.
• 1:34:05
  And I'm like, are you kidding me?
• 1:34:08
  The quartermaster is running
• 1:34:10
  a letter on behalf of a vendor
• 1:34:13
  who their own committee is
• 1:34:14
  saying they shouldn't continue
• 1:34:16
  to make sure they continue.
• 1:34:17
  There's one that was like, what?
• 1:34:19
  Yeah, that seems fishy.
• 1:34:21
  Well, it's not, I
• 1:34:23
  understand why they did it,
• 1:34:24
  but it's just so
• 1:34:25
  unusual going to your point,
• 1:34:27
  what are you reading and going along?
• 1:34:29
  And it's like, wow, that's
• 1:34:31
  incredible that that happened.
• 1:34:33
  And the other thing that's incredible,
• 1:34:35
  while I'm thinking about
• 1:34:36
  that, again, aha moments is,
• 1:34:40
  I call Willis Overland
• 1:34:41
  the Phoenix of the Jeep,
• 1:34:43
  creation development of the Jeep.
• 1:34:45
  They were gonna be
• 1:34:46
  eliminated in July, 1940,
• 1:34:48
  when they didn't get the first bid.
• 1:34:50
  And then they rise from
• 1:34:51
  the ashes to stay alive
• 1:34:53
  when the quartermaster
• 1:34:54
  says, well, if you wanna build,
• 1:34:55
  pilot models on your own
• 1:34:57
  expense, you could do that.
• 1:34:59
  So they did that.
• 1:35:00
  So then they go and
• 1:35:03
  they're almost eliminated
• 1:35:04
  in late January, 1941,
• 1:35:06
  early February, 1941,
• 1:35:09
  when the quad failed
• 1:35:10
  and they're saved again
• 1:35:12
  through the bureaucracy
• 1:35:14
  where it's like, well, no,
• 1:35:15
  you could stay, we're just
• 1:35:16
  gonna approve your prototype,
• 1:35:18
  even though it didn't
• 1:35:18
  pass all the testing.
• 1:35:20
  Really?
• 1:35:21
  Yeah.
• 1:35:22
  Was it because they needed as many Jeeps
• 1:35:25
  as they could get for the war?
• 1:35:26
  It was because they wanted to keep
• 1:35:31
  the various interpretations of the
• 1:35:34
  vehicle going forward.
• 1:35:36
  So they had the Bantam interpretation
• 1:35:37
  and they were very
• 1:35:38
  similar in a lot of ways,
• 1:35:39
  but very different, okay?
• 1:35:41
  They had the Willis interpretation
• 1:35:42
  and they had the Ford interpretation.
• 1:35:43
  So they wanted this multi vendor approach
• 1:35:46
  as the vehicle evolved.
• 1:35:47
  So that's why they went
• 1:35:48
  to bat so much for Willis.
• 1:35:50
  And it's kind of understandable.
• 1:35:51
  And it was good they did,
• 1:35:53
  because what happened
• 1:35:54
  was Willis went back
• 1:35:56
  to the drawing board
• 1:35:57
  and the weight got raised
• 1:35:59
  up to 2,160 pounds.
• 1:36:01
  They had put in a more powerful engine.
• 1:36:03
  Oh yeah.
• 1:36:04
  Into the quad, which caused
• 1:36:06
  a massive weight problems.
• 1:36:07
  And in fact, the army recommended,
• 1:36:10
  it's in the book, in the
• 1:36:12
  technical committee report,
• 1:36:13
  you need to get rid of this engine.
• 1:36:16
  And then I have the
• 1:36:16
  testimony where Delmar Roo says,
• 1:36:19
  I had a meeting with Mr. Frazier
• 1:36:23
  and we decided we were gonna plan our
• 1:36:24
  flag on this engine.
• 1:36:26
  We know it's a great engine.
• 1:36:27
  We know it has more power, 60
• 1:36:29
  horsepower to 40 horsepower.
• 1:36:31
  And I Delmar Roo's
• 1:36:33
  know that more horsepower
• 1:36:34
  to military vehicle is never a bad thing.
• 1:36:36
  It's never a bad thing.
• 1:36:38
  And so they were able
• 1:36:40
  to get the weight down
• 1:36:41
  in the Willis MA and the Willis MA,
• 1:36:44
  their experimental model
• 1:36:45
  proved to be a next level better
• 1:36:48
  because of that powerful engine,
• 1:36:50
  because then the Ford and the Vanna,
• 1:36:53
  because they had used
• 1:36:54
  40 horsepower engines
• 1:36:56
  to try to keep their weight down.
• 1:36:58
  So let's move forward
• 1:36:59
  to the final aha moment
• 1:37:00
  for Willis, right?
• 1:37:02
  So the new edition of the book,
• 1:37:03
  this is brand new material,
• 1:37:05
  I'm reading along and
• 1:37:06
  it's like, all right,
• 1:37:08
  they had a procurement
• 1:37:10
  for the 16,000, right?
• 1:37:12
  So they all put their bids in.
• 1:37:14
  And what did the quarter master do?
• 1:37:15
  The quarter master
• 1:37:16
  wrote a four page memo,
• 1:37:18
  which I put in the book,
• 1:37:19
  called the technical analysis,
• 1:37:21
  basically saying Ford is God
• 1:37:23
  and Willis and Bannum stink.
• 1:37:25
  Therefore, we're gonna
• 1:37:26
  give all this to Ford.
• 1:37:28
  That's the Paul Bruno
• 1:37:29
  short version, right?
• 1:37:32
  I mean, you read this memo and it's like,
• 1:37:34
  literally I've been in bureaucracies,
• 1:37:37
  things happen, I'm an old man now.
• 1:37:39
  There's decisions that are made
• 1:37:41
  and then you write stuff to
• 1:37:42
  justify the decision, right?
• 1:37:44
  They wanted to give this to Ford.
• 1:37:45
  So this whole memo, which I
• 1:37:47
  actually put the whole memo
• 1:37:48
  because it's good for
• 1:37:48
  people to read this stuff
• 1:37:50
  instead of me saying,
• 1:37:50
  hey, they wrote this memo,
• 1:37:52
  they can read for themselves
• 1:37:53
  and get the feel for what happened here.
• 1:37:55
  Oh yeah, absolutely.
• 1:37:57
  So this is July 30th, 1941,
• 1:38:01
  the quarter master
• 1:38:02
  writes this memo saying,
• 1:38:04
  we want Ford.
• 1:38:05
  They literally go to the chief of staff
• 1:38:09
  and the director of
• 1:38:10
  purchasing to get approval
• 1:38:11
  to award the 16,000 contract to Ford,
• 1:38:14
  which means you would have
• 1:38:15
  only had a 40 horsepower engine,
• 1:38:17
  which means it wouldn't
• 1:38:18
  have been as good a Jeep.
• 1:38:19
  It probably would have been
• 1:38:20
  fine as the Willis Jeep, okay?
• 1:38:24
  It goes up the chain
• 1:38:26
  of command and one man,
• 1:38:28
  William Knudsen says, no.
• 1:38:31
  Willis has the lowest price
• 1:38:34
  and maybe the best vehicle,
• 1:38:35
  but they had the lowest price
• 1:38:36
  and you're supposed to award
• 1:38:37
  a contract based upon price,
• 1:38:38
  right? Right.
• 1:38:40
  I am ordering the quarter
• 1:38:41
  master to award this to Willis.
• 1:38:44
  So Willis again, rises
• 1:38:47
  from the ashes of the Phoenix
• 1:38:48
  for the third time and is
• 1:38:50
  awarded the 16,000 contract.
• 1:38:52
  And that's how you
• 1:38:53
  get the iconic Willis MB
• 1:38:55
  that everybody knows,
• 1:38:56
  but most people don't know
• 1:38:57
  they were that close to
• 1:38:59
  not getting that contract.
• 1:39:01
  They were gonna give it to them.
• 1:39:03
  And so it's just so
• 1:39:04
  funny, people never change.
• 1:39:06
  The quarter master writes another memo
• 1:39:09
  to get the Willis thing approved.
• 1:39:11
  And they were so mad.
• 1:39:12
  The memo basically
• 1:39:12
  says, Paul Bruno paraphrase,
• 1:39:14
  well, because you overrode us
• 1:39:16
  and wouldn't let us give this to Ford,
• 1:39:17
  here's the approval for Willis.
• 1:39:19
  Say yes.
• 1:39:21
  (laughs)
• 1:39:22
  It's like, I don't
• 1:39:22
  wanna say little children,
• 1:39:23
  but it was just like, they were so mad.
• 1:39:26
  And that's how you went to the Willis MB.
• 1:39:28
  And then in the court
• 1:39:29
  case and the testimony said,
• 1:39:30
  well, all that detail, the
• 1:39:32
  machinations on the 16,000.
• 1:39:34
  Then I had the detail on Delmar Ruz.
• 1:39:38
  I talked about the
• 1:39:38
  changes during the war.
• 1:39:40
  Delmar Ruz talked 15 pages.
• 1:39:44
  I only put 10 in the book.
• 1:39:47
  Here's the changes between what we bid on
• 1:39:50
  for the 16,000, a drawing that the
• 1:39:55
  quarter master put out
• 1:39:56
  and the actual first vehicle we built.
• 1:39:59
  15 pages, like 45 changes they had done
• 1:40:03
  just between when
• 1:40:04
  they awarded the contract
• 1:40:05
  to build the first MB.
• 1:40:07
  So I put 10 in the book to
• 1:40:08
  give people a flavor for it.
• 1:40:10
  Again, detail never found anywhere else.
• 1:40:13
  And it shows, I didn't
• 1:40:14
  wanna put so much of it in,
• 1:40:17
  but at least the 10
• 1:40:18
  or 12 examples I put in
• 1:40:21
  shows how the vehicle was still evolving
• 1:40:23
  even from when they
• 1:40:25
  were awarded the contract.
• 1:40:27
  And there's also testimony that I put in
• 1:40:29
  when they awarded the
• 1:40:29
  contract in 1941 of,
• 1:40:32
  hey, we had meetings,
• 1:40:33
  this is what we discussed,
• 1:40:34
  this is what we had to do.
• 1:40:36
  So again, just astonishing detail,
• 1:40:39
  why I humbly truly say
• 1:40:41
  it's the magnum opus,
• 1:40:43
  I wrote the book deliberately using
• 1:40:45
  as much of the testimony as I can
• 1:40:47
  and then putting in
• 1:40:48
  connectors and other information
• 1:40:52
  to allow the people who did
• 1:40:53
  it to tell their own story.
• 1:40:55
  Yeah, that's wonderful.
• 1:40:57
  It's really just that wonderful.
• 1:40:59
  So I know we have people going,
• 1:41:00
  not that it wasn't
• 1:41:01
  interesting to begin with,
• 1:41:02
  but all these
• 1:41:02
  revelations that you've outlined
• 1:41:04
  with us talking here.
• 1:41:06
  People are going, what's the
• 1:41:07
  name of that website again?
• 1:41:08
  It's originaljeeps.com,
• 1:41:12
  save you from having to rewind,
• 1:41:14
  originaljeeps.com.
• 1:41:15
  And that's really got
• 1:41:16
  some extra information,
• 1:41:17
  but if the books are available at Amazon,
• 1:41:19
  the original Jeeps, the
• 1:41:21
  original Jeeps and Pictures,
• 1:41:23
  which is the picture book,
• 1:41:24
  the images book I talked
• 1:41:25
  about that I wrote 2022,
• 1:41:27
  then the original book,
• 1:41:28
  which if I was people,
• 1:41:30
  I wrote it as a project management book,
• 1:41:32
  it's a nice book on the first Jeep,
• 1:41:34
  Project Management History,
• 1:41:35
  Project Management and
• 1:41:36
  History of the first Jeep.
• 1:41:37
  But if I was just the general person,
• 1:41:39
  I'd buy either the original,
• 1:41:41
  oh, this is the vision I wanted to say,
• 1:41:43
  thank you for letting me talk long enough
• 1:41:44
  so I can remember what
• 1:41:45
  that guy was gonna say.
• 1:41:46
  Regent that, mea-kik-kik-kik-kik-kik-kik.
• 1:41:48
  So if you want the story
• 1:41:52
  and the detail in words
• 1:41:55
  or to the original Jeeps,
• 1:41:57
  if you want the story
• 1:41:59
  and easy read and pictures
• 1:42:00
  to get a basic
• 1:42:01
  understanding of what happened,
• 1:42:03
  you can read an hour,
• 1:42:04
  which is why I wanted to make the story
• 1:42:06
  more accessible to people.
• 1:42:07
  So you buy the
• 1:42:09
  original Jeeps and Pictures
• 1:42:11
  and obviously you can buy them together.
• 1:42:14
  They're not expensive
• 1:42:15
  books, I'll tell them right.
• 1:42:16
  The original Jeeps in 1999
• 1:42:17
  and the original
• 1:42:18
  Jeeps and Pictures in 999.
• 1:42:20
  So we tried to make them--
• 1:42:23
  It's more about getting
• 1:42:24
  the information out there
• 1:42:25
  than it is to become
• 1:42:26
  millionaires, I would assume.
• 1:42:28
  Yeah, for me, it really
• 1:42:29
  was a calling on my life,
• 1:42:31
  a quest to tell this story and the
• 1:42:35
  further I got into it,
• 1:42:37
  especially when I found the court case
• 1:42:38
  and for some odd reason,
• 1:42:40
  maybe the only person that
• 1:42:41
  went into it enough detail
• 1:42:43
  to realize what it was, what it is,
• 1:42:47
  yeah, so for me, I'm
• 1:42:50
  not in it for the money,
• 1:42:51
  never have been, it's just really good.
• 1:42:54
  And thank God for
• 1:42:55
  individuals like yourself
• 1:42:56
  that brings this
• 1:42:57
  information to the light.
• 1:42:58
  I mean, if you were just looking at this
• 1:43:00
  and looking at it from a
• 1:43:01
  dollars and cents figure,
• 1:43:02
  you go, nobody's
• 1:43:02
  gonna buy enough of these
• 1:43:03
  to make me enough money,
• 1:43:04
  but it was your passion to put this
• 1:43:06
  information together.
• 1:43:07
  And had you not had that passion,
• 1:43:09
  I'm sure you wouldn't have
• 1:43:10
  run across that court case,
• 1:43:11
  which to me is just
• 1:43:13
  like a huge stroke of luck
• 1:43:15
  that they went through all this,
• 1:43:17
  if nothing else because
• 1:43:18
  of the truthfulness of it.
• 1:43:20
  So let me ask you a quick question
• 1:43:21
  and I'm sure the main answer is wait,
• 1:43:25
  but was there ever any discussion
• 1:43:26
  about putting any assemblance
• 1:43:28
  of a roll bar on these Jeeps?
• 1:43:31
  Because the soldiers are out there
• 1:43:33
  and they're not in pristine conditions.
• 1:43:36
  And I would imagine a
• 1:43:37
  few of them got injured
• 1:43:38
  with a Jeep flip flipping over.
• 1:43:41
  As far as I know, at least through my,
• 1:43:43
  I'm only early Jeep history through 1942.
• 1:43:46
  No, I didn't see
• 1:43:48
  anything in the 38 major changes
• 1:43:50
  that talked about a roll bar.
• 1:43:52
  So, and I have read that
• 1:43:54
  that was a massive problem
• 1:43:56
  with the World War II
• 1:43:57
  Jeeps is rolling over.
• 1:44:00
  Far as I know, no, I guess they figured,
• 1:44:01
  well, the military take a chance.
• 1:44:03
  We were men and we die like men.
• 1:44:06
  That's right.
• 1:44:08
  (laughing)
• 1:44:08
  So roll bar, who
• 1:44:10
  needs a stinking roll bar?
• 1:44:11
  Yeah. Come on.
• 1:44:12
  They would call, they would
• 1:44:14
  have called that a sissy bar.
• 1:44:16
  (laughing)
• 1:44:16
  Maybe, like I said,
• 1:44:18
  and the other thing is,
• 1:44:20
  maybe adding a roll
• 1:44:21
  bar would have changed
• 1:44:21
  the dynamics of the vehicle in a way that
• 1:44:23
  I really don't know.
• 1:44:24
  Yeah.
• 1:44:25
  So the other question I have for you is,
• 1:44:27
  do you own a Jeep?
• 1:44:29
  Everybody asks me that and
• 1:44:31
  the truthful answer is I don't.
• 1:44:33
  You don't want one of the original Jeeps?
• 1:44:36
  I thought about it,
• 1:44:37
  but I don't really have the space for it.
• 1:44:39
  If I was gonna get a Jeep,
• 1:44:42
  I would buy either a GPW or a Willis MB,
• 1:44:45
  that's left over from--
• 1:44:46
  That was gonna be my next question
• 1:44:47
  with all the research you had done,
• 1:44:48
  which one would you want?
• 1:44:49
  Because I mean, all
• 1:44:50
  of them of course, but.
• 1:44:52
  Well, there's only, from my reading,
• 1:44:55
  there's only 23, they
• 1:44:56
  only built 1500 MAs,
• 1:44:59
  and there's only 23 of those left.
• 1:45:02
  The Ford Pygmy is actually in a museum
• 1:45:04
  in Hudsonville, Alabama,
• 1:45:05
  the third Jeep still exists.
• 1:45:07
  And so, but the only Jeeps you could get,
• 1:45:10
  I don't know if there's any GPs left.
• 1:45:11
  So the ones you get are the, you know,
• 1:45:13
  they built 600,000 between
• 1:45:15
  the GPWs and the Willis MB.
• 1:45:17
  That's the ones I would get
• 1:45:18
  because I've written so
• 1:45:19
  much about them, if I hadn't.
• 1:45:22
  I just like to say, well,
• 1:45:23
  you know, my, how I'm wired,
• 1:45:25
  I'm not really the outdoorsy type person,
• 1:45:28
  or have the Jeep for that reason.
• 1:45:31
  I'm more of the academic
• 1:45:32
  type, so I write about them.
• 1:45:33
  So that's my role.
• 1:45:35
  No, you don't have to own a Jeep.
• 1:45:36
  You don't have to wanna own a Jeep.
• 1:45:38
  I just think that after
• 1:45:39
  all the research and stuff,
• 1:45:40
  even if you weren't taking it off road,
• 1:45:42
  it'd be cool just to
• 1:45:43
  have to cruise around,
• 1:45:44
  you know, drive through
• 1:45:45
  Wendy's, get a Frosty,
• 1:45:46
  you know, that type of thing.
• 1:45:48
  I like Frosty's actually, I
• 1:45:49
  have no idea how you knew that.
• 1:45:51
  Everybody likes Frosty's.
• 1:45:52
  That's why the machine's
• 1:45:53
  broken every time you go there.
• 1:45:54
  I probably should buy one
• 1:45:56
  and just put it in the garage
• 1:45:57
  so I can say, yes, I own a Jeep.
• 1:45:58
  Exactly, you're ready for that question.
• 1:46:00
  Or you could just lie,
• 1:46:01
  this isn't a court case.
• 1:46:02
  You could just lie and say, yeah, well.
• 1:46:05
  I know, if I'm gonna lie,
• 1:46:06
  it's gotta be something bigger than that.
• 1:46:08
  You know, I gotta get
• 1:46:08
  some real money out of it.
• 1:46:09
  If you're gonna lie, I
• 1:46:11
  gotta sell your soul.
• 1:46:12
  I gotta sell it just so I own a Jeep.
• 1:46:13
  And I think people are okay with that
• 1:46:15
  because my contribution to
• 1:46:18
  the Jeep world is really,
• 1:46:20
  and that's why I
• 1:46:20
  specify early Jeep history,
• 1:46:24
  1940 to January 1942,
• 1:46:26
  or really end of World War I to January.
• 1:46:29
  I stop after, you know,
• 1:46:30
  once you get to the war.
• 1:46:32
  Though in the new book
• 1:46:33
  in chapters 13 and 14,
• 1:46:35
  as we were going
• 1:46:36
  through the denouement of,
• 1:46:38
  excuse me, of the Jeep development,
• 1:46:41
  creation development,
• 1:46:42
  we did an homage to the Jeep
• 1:46:44
  starting in chapter 13 in 1941.
• 1:46:47
  And we have photographs of
• 1:46:49
  the Jeep from 1941 to 1945
• 1:46:52
  in chronological order.
• 1:46:54
  So people can see the Jeep and the war
• 1:46:56
  while they're going
• 1:46:57
  through how they got the 16,000
• 1:46:58
  and how the Willis MB came about,
• 1:47:00
  and then obviously the Ford license.
• 1:47:02
  So that was fun to do that,
• 1:47:04
  to kind of pay an
• 1:47:05
  honor or homage to the Jeep
• 1:47:08
  at the end of the book.
• 1:47:10
  Here is all this work
• 1:47:11
  and effort and detail
• 1:47:12
  that these individuals had gone through,
• 1:47:15
  and this was the payoff.
• 1:47:17
  It was used everywhere.
• 1:47:19
  All right, folks, so originaljeeps.com,
• 1:47:21
  we mentioned that you can go to Amazon.
• 1:47:23
  I make it really easy for you.
• 1:47:25
  You could just do a
• 1:47:26
  search for Paul Bruno,
• 1:47:29
  and several books actually come up.
• 1:47:31
  Some of them are about Jeeps,
• 1:47:33
  and there's the
• 1:47:34
  original Jeeps and pictures
• 1:47:35
  that Paul mentioned.
• 1:47:36
  The original Jeeps, which is the,
• 1:47:39
  I believe the first book that you wrote.
• 1:47:41
  And let's see, do I
• 1:47:42
  see the most current one?
• 1:47:43
  Yes, the most current one out there.
• 1:47:45
  Well, actually the first Jeep,
• 1:47:47
  that was the project management one.
• 1:47:50
  The project
• 1:47:51
  management was the first book.
• 1:47:53
  The current book, if
• 1:47:54
  you want soup to nuts
• 1:47:56
  on the creation development of Jeeps
• 1:47:58
  is now what we call the expanded edition
• 1:48:00
  of the original
• 1:48:00
  Jeeps, which is on Amazon.
• 1:48:02
  And then if you want the accessible
• 1:48:04
  version of the story
• 1:48:06
  picture tells a thousand words,
• 1:48:07
  the original Jeeps and pictures.
• 1:48:09
  And like I said earlier,
• 1:48:11
  if I was someone I'd buy,
• 1:48:12
  if you want the detail,
• 1:48:13
  get the original Jeeps,
• 1:48:14
  if you want just the
• 1:48:15
  overview, get the picture book,
• 1:48:17
  if you want the whole
• 1:48:18
  story, both words and pictures,
• 1:48:20
  buy both.
• 1:48:21
  Yeah, I was gonna
• 1:48:22
  say, if you get the one,
• 1:48:24
  then you're gonna have
• 1:48:24
  to stop what you're doing
• 1:48:25
  in order to net the other one.
• 1:48:27
  So just get the picture one
• 1:48:28
  and then get the other one as well.
• 1:48:30
  Get all three, and then you
• 1:48:32
  have plenty of things to do
• 1:48:33
  whenever the EMP hits
• 1:48:35
  and all the power's out.
• 1:48:37
  (laughing)
• 1:48:37
  That's kind of true.
• 1:48:40
  Paul, thank you a lot
• 1:48:40
  for being here today.
• 1:48:41
  Tell the kids where they
• 1:48:42
  can find you on social media.
• 1:48:43
  We've got the original Jeeps
• 1:48:45
  website, originaljeeps.com.
• 1:48:48
  Are you on the Instagram?
• 1:48:49
  Are you on the picture, the
• 1:48:50
  Pinterest, the picture things?
• 1:48:52
  The only one we have is
• 1:48:54
  we have a Facebook page,
• 1:48:55
  the original Jeeps that
• 1:48:56
  people can go out and check out.
• 1:48:58
  And I keep that up to date.
• 1:48:59
  I've been going through a weekly post
• 1:49:03
  for over two years now,
• 1:49:05
  posting each page of the
• 1:49:07
  original Jeeps out on the,
• 1:49:11
  the original Jeeps of pictures
• 1:49:12
  out on the original Jeeps Facebook page.
• 1:49:14
  Oh, that's neat.
• 1:49:15
  So lots of really cool pictures there
• 1:49:17
  that people can read
• 1:49:17
  through the particular posts.
• 1:49:19
  And I still have, you
• 1:49:21
  know, seven or eight,
• 1:49:22
  six or seven chapters to go through.
• 1:49:23
  So that keeps the Facebook page fresh.
• 1:49:27
  So for people to check out
• 1:49:29
  as I do those weekly posts.
• 1:49:30
  So now, I know there's some
• 1:49:32
  keyboard warriors out there
• 1:49:34
  that think they know
• 1:49:34
  everything about the early Jeeps.
• 1:49:36
  So now you can go over
• 1:49:37
  there and pick fights with Paul
• 1:49:39
  on the Facebook page and he
• 1:49:40
  can show you where you're wrong.
• 1:49:42
  Well, I wouldn't say we would have
• 1:49:43
  a civilized discussion.
• 1:49:46
  A friendly thing, a friendly game.
• 1:49:48
  Well, can I say people
• 1:49:49
  have tremendous passion
• 1:49:52
  for the Jeep and the early Jeeps.
• 1:49:53
  And as people know stuff
• 1:49:55
  that I don't know, you know,
• 1:49:57
  in fact, truth in advertising,
• 1:50:00
  we're doing an update to the
• 1:50:04
  original Jeeps and pictures.
• 1:50:06
  And there was someone who I known
• 1:50:08
  who gave us some really good feedback
• 1:50:11
  and he had detail that it didn't hurt
• 1:50:13
  that it wasn't in there,
• 1:50:14
  but adding it to the, you know, the
• 1:50:16
  update will be nice.
• 1:50:17
  So people have lots of good information
• 1:50:19
  that they can choose.
• 1:50:21
  Book's still really great now.
• 1:50:22
  And I'm not sure exactly
• 1:50:23
  when we get the updates.
• 1:50:24
  But don't hesitate to buy the
• 1:50:26
  original Jeeps and pictures.
• 1:50:27
  It's just going to your point.
• 1:50:29
  People have so much
• 1:50:30
  good knowledge out there,
• 1:50:31
  but I can definitely
• 1:50:32
  discuss some of this.
• 1:50:34
  These are not expensive books.
• 1:50:36
  So don't worry about
• 1:50:37
  trying to save a nickel.
• 1:50:39
  Take the latest information.
• 1:50:40
  Well, that'll be, you know, $200.
• 1:50:42
  It's 30 bucks all in if
• 1:50:44
  you went for both books,
• 1:50:45
  like plus shipping.
• 1:50:47
  Great job, Paul.
• 1:50:49
  And you really covered a lot of stuff.
• 1:50:50
  I appreciate it.
• 1:50:50
  You made the interviewer position here
• 1:50:53
  really, really easy.
• 1:50:54
  I appreciate that.
• 1:50:55
  Paul, thank you so much
• 1:50:56
  for being with us here today.
• 1:50:57
  And, you know, whenever
• 1:50:58
  you uncover some, you know,
• 1:51:01
  the next thing you
• 1:51:01
  should research is Roswell.
• 1:51:03
  There was Jeeps involved in Roswell.
• 1:51:04
  We spoke about that earlier.
• 1:51:06
  Now you just need to go
• 1:51:07
  a whole nother direction.
• 1:51:08
  Maybe you can find some court documents
• 1:51:10
  that won't get you killed.
• 1:51:12
  Well, you know, we'll
• 1:51:12
  start an urban legend that,
• 1:51:14
  you know, the Jeep was,
• 1:51:16
  you know, designed by aliens
• 1:51:18
  because it was that great.
• 1:51:19
  So it was a step ahead.
• 1:51:20
  Nobody else seems to be
• 1:51:21
  able to make anything as good.
• 1:51:23
  We're going with the
• 1:51:23
  alien theme on the, you know,
• 1:51:25
  the Jeep talk show today.
• 1:51:26
  So there you go.
• 1:51:28
  All right, man.
• 1:51:28
  Thanks so much.
• 1:51:29
  Thank you for having me.
• 1:51:31
  Broadcasting Sense 2010.