Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Rainey Street Ripper Strikes Again? More Death at Lady Bird Lake

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Rainey Street Ripper Strikes Again? More Death at Lady Bird Lake · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: The city of Austin gripped by fears of a serial
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Speaker 2: killer as law enforcement reveals thirty eight bodies thirty eight
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Speaker 2: three eight have been found in and around one lake
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Speaker 2: in the last days. Another victim, I'm Nancy Grace. This
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Speaker 2: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 1: That's right. In the last days, a grim.
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Speaker 2: Discovery made, a spokesperson for Austin PD says, a teen
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Speaker 2: boy goes missing Sunday as he was strolling along and
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Speaker 2: planning to kayak Lady Bird Lake. Authorities immediately launch a
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Speaker 2: search and rescue effort to no avail. Days later, a
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Speaker 2: paddle border makes a grim discovery, spotting the teen's body
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Speaker 2: floating in the water near a busy intersection at West
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Speaker 2: Riverside Drive at South Lamar Boulevard.
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Speaker 1: What happened to the teen boy?
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Speaker 2: The artificial lake, Ladybird Lake stretches over five miles.
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Speaker 1: Was this death an accident?
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Speaker 2: We may never know, but the backdrop is thirty eight
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Speaker 2: bodies found in and around Ladybird Lake.
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Speaker 1: For instance, there's Jeff Jones.
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Speaker 2: He flies into Austin last year for what he thought
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Speaker 2: would be a bachelor party. He went to dinner with
1:50
Speaker 2: his friends and started and headed out to move on
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Speaker 2: to bars along West sixth Street. Around one am, he
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Speaker 2: got separated from his friend ends Two weeks later, he
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Speaker 2: wakes up in the hospital with metal rods supporting his back.
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Speaker 2: He doesn't remember a thing. Doctors find the date rape
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Speaker 2: drug or hypnol in his system and told him he
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Speaker 2: had been found in the water near a twenty five
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Speaker 2: foot high drop from a bridge. Terrified, Jones thinks he
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Speaker 2: was drugged and pushed by a potential serial killer that
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Speaker 2: many believe is roaming the streets of Austin. Listen to
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Speaker 2: Austin police officers speaking out.
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Speaker 3: Our initial information doesn't show anything suspicious, but we don't
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Speaker 3: make that final determination until the medical examiner has been
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Speaker 3: able to conduct their review.
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Speaker 4: As well.
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Speaker 5: A lot of bodies been pulled out of the water
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Speaker 5: off sir, Can you understand the public's concern, worries and
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Speaker 5: the heighten of alert.
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Speaker 1: Sure? Absolutely.
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Speaker 3: You know, one thing to keep in mind is that
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Speaker 3: Austin has thousands of acres of green space and water.
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Speaker 3: You know, it's a very nature focused large metropolitan area.
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Speaker 3: So you know, we would just encourage people to always
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Speaker 3: be aware of your surroundings, you know, and if you
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Speaker 3: can go with friends, keep yourself safe, right so that
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Speaker 3: way we don't have unfortunate incidents that that can occur.
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Speaker 2: What unfortunate incidents many people call it murder.
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Speaker 1: Now, I've been researching.
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Speaker 2: This and there are many bodies that have just been
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Speaker 2: recently pulled out of Lady Bird Lake, But all the
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Speaker 2: way back to two thousand and eight, there have been
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Speaker 2: suspicious deaths, bodies floating up in Ladybird Lake that have
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Speaker 2: been deemed accident or suicide. Specifically in two thousand and eight,
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Speaker 2: read hamad read a mod a dad, a husband, great job,
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Speaker 2: second job.
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Speaker 1: He's found dead in Ladybird Lake.
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Speaker 2: His hands and feet are bound and he has tape
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Speaker 2: over his mouth and nose. Witnesses saw it when he
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Speaker 2: was pulled out of the water. Multiple witnesses saw that
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Speaker 2: he was bound and duct taped. But it was ruled
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Speaker 2: a suicide. How did he bind his feet and hands,
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Speaker 2: get duct tape on his mouth and nose, and what
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Speaker 2: hobble into the water and flee himself in That's statistically impossible.
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Speaker 2: If you look at method and assessment of homicide and suicide,
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Speaker 2: that assessment is very wrong. But let's fast forward to
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Speaker 2: now cops and Austin still insisting it's all just a coincidence.
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Speaker 2: Agree or disagree. Another body just found. Take a listen
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Speaker 2: to Rachel Benia crime online.
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Speaker 6: Another body has been found in Eady Bird Lake in Austin.
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Speaker 6: At one thirty one pm, Austin Police respond to a
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Speaker 6: chech welfare urgent call after a nine to one to
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Speaker 6: one caller reports seeing a body about twenty feet off shore.
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Speaker 6: Police arrive at one thirty three pm, minutes after the
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Speaker 6: call is made and find a body of an unknown
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Speaker 6: person who's pronounced dead. So the body is found in
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Speaker 6: the same site where other deceased individuals have been recovered
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Speaker 6: in recent months.
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Speaker 2: Okay, let me understand what's happening. First of all, let's
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Speaker 2: go out to a special guest joining us, a Brianna
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Speaker 2: Hollis crime reporter k XA and News.
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Speaker 1: Brianna, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 2: First of all, tell me about Lady bird Like. I
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Speaker 2: understand it's a man made.
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Speaker 1: Like to what hold water for a reservoir?
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Speaker 7: What is it correct for? You know, the average person
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Speaker 7: who hasn't been to Austin. It's referred to as the river.
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Speaker 7: It's I believe about four hundred and seventy acres of
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Speaker 7: service surface area, and it flows under the two major
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Speaker 7: highways in town, goes all through downtown, is lined by
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Speaker 7: a lot of green space, is close to bars, right
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Speaker 7: by a popular walking and hiking trail.
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Speaker 2: So let me understand Lady Bird Lake actually has a
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Speaker 2: ban on swimming in it, doesn't it.
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Speaker 1: For most parts of it?
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Speaker 8: Correct?
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Speaker 1: Because so many dead bodies have been fished out.
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Speaker 7: There's other reasons for that as well, just kind of
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Speaker 7: I believe general safety and bacteria in the water kind
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Speaker 7: of issues as well.
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Speaker 2: Okay, I understood that swimming was banned a few years
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Speaker 2: after Riat Hamad was found floating with his hands and
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Speaker 2: feet bound and duck tape. After a few more bodies
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Speaker 2: floated up and officers continued fishing them out, swimming was
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Speaker 2: in fact banned at Lady Bird Lake.
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Speaker 1: But let's move forward to what we know now.
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Speaker 2: Also near Ladybird Lake is a popular area that includes
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Speaker 2: food trucks, food trucks, and it's a long rainy street.
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Speaker 1: Listen.
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Speaker 9: Rainy Street in downtown Austin is one point eight miles
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Speaker 9: from Ladybird Lake. It's a raucous bar and food truck area,
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Speaker 9: where many of the victims were seen before their deaths.
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Speaker 9: It's also an area with a long standing reputation for crime.
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Speaker 9: One theory is that people are in danger of having
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Speaker 9: their drink spiked so they can be robbed or worse.
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Speaker 9: Over the last two years, the Austin Police Department has
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Speaker 9: been investigating crimes where men are being potentially drugged while
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Speaker 9: out for the evening. KXAN reports in each case, a
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Speaker 9: man meets a woman at one of the downtown establishments,
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Speaker 9: and during the course of the evening, the victim is
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Speaker 9: drugged and the suspect takes off with their credit cards
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Speaker 9: and cell phone. Investigators say the cell phones and credit
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Speaker 9: cards been used to commit more than seventy five thousand
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Speaker 9: dollars in fraudulent purchases and transactions. The suspect uses the
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Speaker 9: credit cards for physical purchases at various businesses and the
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Speaker 9: cell phone for banking apps for fraudulent purchases and other transactions.
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Speaker 2: This would not be the first time that late night
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Speaker 2: food trucks have been linked to homicide. Brian Coburger specifically
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Speaker 2: as to whom I am referring listen.
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Speaker 9: To a four murdered University of Idaho students caught on
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Speaker 9: video less than two hours before they were stabbed to death.
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Speaker 9: Madison Mogan and ki Leakansolves ordered a ten dollars portion
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Speaker 9: of carbonara from the Grub Truckers, a food truck at
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Speaker 9: one for three am. During their ten minute wait, they
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Speaker 9: took photos of each other and chatted with other customers.
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Speaker 9: They arrived at the truck with an unidentified young man,
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Speaker 9: but didn't leave with him. The video was filmed by
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Speaker 9: the food truck operators as part of a livestream.
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Speaker 1: Joining me an.
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Speaker 2: All star panel to makes sense of what we know
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Speaker 2: right now. But I want to go to Frank's former
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Speaker 2: FBI Supervisory Special Agent, President of Investigative and Security Global Solutions, Dennis, thank.
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Speaker 1: You for being with us, Good morning.
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Speaker 10: Thank you.
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Speaker 2: The food truck and bar and restaurant area along Rainy
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Speaker 2: Street not far from Ladybird Lake, and I believe in
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Speaker 2: criminal law there is no coincidence. And I base that
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Speaker 2: on not only ten years of prosecuting nothing but felonies,
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Speaker 2: of course, including homicide, serial murders, spree murders, but in
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Speaker 2: all the cases that I've covered, when you keep having
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Speaker 2: dead bodies float up in the same lake, you have
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Speaker 2: to at least consider a serial killer.
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Speaker 10: I would agree you count the number of bodies that
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Speaker 10: have been found in this area over the last several years.
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Speaker 10: And this is an area where, well don't their motorized
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Speaker 10: boats are not allowed. You know, there are a few
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Speaker 10: drownings every year on Lake Austin and Lake Travis, but
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Speaker 10: these are usually from boating situations and swimming situations. So
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Speaker 10: this number of bodies in one location, to me, is
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Speaker 10: not a coincidence either. In there probably I think I've
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Speaker 10: counted maybe their fifteen bars on Rainey Street and they're
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Speaker 10: all within distance walking distance of the lake joining me.
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Speaker 2: In addition to Brianna Hollis from k x a N
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Speaker 2: and Dennis Frank's former FBI, another special guest is Reagan Apodicio,
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Speaker 2: mother to one of the Ladybird Lake victim's son. I
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Speaker 2: am referring to John Christopher Hayes Clark. He was found
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Speaker 2: dead April fifteen, twenty three. His CEO d cause of
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Speaker 2: death even now is un determined.
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Speaker 1: Reagan, thank you for being with us, Thank you for
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Speaker 1: having me.
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Speaker 2: Freagan, what do you make a police insisting that all
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Speaker 2: of these deaths are either accident or suicide?
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Speaker 5: I don't believe anything the Austin Police Department says. I
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Speaker 5: haven't since I've known, since I first got the call
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Speaker 5: about Chris. It's been crazy dealing with them, and I
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Speaker 5: haven't had too much clarification on anything of his death.
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Speaker 5: So that makes me not believe them.
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Speaker 2: When you say it's been crazy dealing with them, what
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Speaker 2: do you mean by that.
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Speaker 5: Little to no contact with them? I have to keep
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Speaker 5: basically begging to talk to the detective at the time
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Speaker 5: when all this happened, I literally only talked to him
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Speaker 5: two times, met him one time, and the one time
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Speaker 5: I met him is when they were about to close
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Speaker 5: the case.
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Speaker 1: Is the case actually closed? Yes? And what was their
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Speaker 1: decision as to cause of death?
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Speaker 5: They deemed it as undetermined and they closed the case
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Speaker 5: because they said they had no information on Chris.
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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: Over three dozen bodies have been found in or around
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Speaker 2: Lady Bird Lake in just three years, nineteen pulled from
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Speaker 2: the water, the rest discovered on land, police shutting down
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Speaker 2: suggestions that there is a serial killer name the Rainy
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Speaker 2: Street Ripper, while half a dozen causes of death remain unknown.
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Speaker 2: So how can they say that if they don't even
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Speaker 2: know the cood causes of death on at least six
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Speaker 2: of the victims. What do we know about the so
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Speaker 2: called Rainy Street ripper? And why is law enforcement insisting
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Speaker 2: there's not a serial killer when we don't even have
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Speaker 2: all the CODs. Reagan Apodiicio, mother to one of the
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Speaker 2: Ladybird late victim's young son, and he wants to know
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Speaker 2: what happened to dad? And can I tell you? As
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Speaker 2: each year passes is going to nag him and haunt
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Speaker 2: him the rest of his life if we don't get answers,
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Speaker 2: now is the time to get those answers, really get
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Speaker 2: hold on just one moment. Also joining us is renowned
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Speaker 2: medical examiner chief Medical Examiner in Texas of Terrance County.
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Speaker 1: That's Fort Worth Lecturer.
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Speaker 2: University of Texas, Austin and at TCU, Texas Christian University
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Speaker 2: Medical School, doctor Kendall Crown's Dodtor Crowns, thank you for.
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Speaker 1: Being with us. To me, when a case is.
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Speaker 2: Labeled undetermined CEOD cause of death and the family has
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Speaker 2: no answers, that's not a case that I would consider
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Speaker 2: to be closed.
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Speaker 11: Yeah, you're correct on that, Nancy. Any case that's left
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Speaker 11: undetermined means that the medical examiner wasn't able to figure
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Speaker 11: out an exact cause of death, and so because of that,
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Speaker 11: they've left it undetermined in case any investigative information comes
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Speaker 11: up on a later date, or anything else may come
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Speaker 11: arise that may change the outcome. So when you get
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Speaker 11: an undetermined, especially in a case found in a lake
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Speaker 11: like that, it means that they didn't find anything specific,
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Speaker 11: because drowning finding themselves are non specific, and so they
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Speaker 11: didn't find anything that they felt was valid enough to
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Speaker 11: cause it to give a good valid cause death.
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Speaker 2: Well, they're saying that about so many of the cases.
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Speaker 2: Doctor Kendall Crowns, I want to circle back to you
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Speaker 2: on obtaining cause of death when a body has been
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Speaker 2: in the water submerged for a period of time. But
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Speaker 2: I want to go back to Reagan Apadicio, mother to
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Speaker 2: victim Christopher Clark's son, question to you regarding the death
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Speaker 2: of Chris Clark. You guys were together for over ten years.
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Speaker 2: I understand you last saw him on Easter Sunday, It's correct,
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Speaker 2: and when he walked out after visiting with you and
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Speaker 2: your son, you had no idea you would never see
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Speaker 2: him again.
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Speaker 1: When did you learn that Christopher had been killed.
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Speaker 5: I learned Sunday after they let his mother know what.
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Speaker 1: Were you told?
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Speaker 5: His best friend called me and he was very distraught
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Speaker 5: and let me know that they had found.
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Speaker 1: Chris in the lake.
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Speaker 5: And I didn't believe it, and I went to his
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Speaker 5: mom's house and she told me that the police had
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Speaker 5: came and let them know that they had identified him
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Speaker 5: in the lake and that, you know, he was deceased,
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Speaker 5: and I kind of lost it from there.
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Speaker 2: Do you know, Reagan, whether he had drugs or alcohol
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Speaker 2: in his body?
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Speaker 7: Yes?
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Speaker 2: I do know, Diddy, Yes, you know. That leads me back.
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Speaker 2: Brianna joining me, Brianna.
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Speaker 1: Hollis k x A N to.
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Speaker 2: The scheme that apparently some women have drugging and robbing
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Speaker 2: male victims and then they are found in and around
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Speaker 2: Ladybird Lake. Are you familiar with that scheme? That investigation
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Speaker 2: by Austin p DA.
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Speaker 7: In my experience, when it has come to cases similar
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Speaker 7: to what you have brought up in the past two
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Speaker 7: years that I personally have looked into, they have either
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Speaker 7: been not reported to police or have been unsubstantiated, or
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Speaker 7: the police department has suspended the cases on the bonus
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Speaker 7: of the complaint end.
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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm really not sure what you're saying. Are you
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Speaker 2: saying that you know of other cases where it's alleged
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Speaker 2: victims were drugged and then robbed but they were never prosecuted.
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Speaker 2: Whether it's because it couldn't be substantiated or the victim
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Speaker 2: didn't want to testify, is that what you're saying I'm saying.
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Speaker 7: Or because the alleged victims didn't report it to police
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Speaker 7: at all and it was just social media.
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Speaker 2: Chatter or okay, people reaching out my question? Do you
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Speaker 2: know of cases, whether they've been prosecuted or not, where
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Speaker 2: victims claimed they were drugged and robbed in the area? Yeah, okay,
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Speaker 2: let me go to doctor Kendall Crown's again, chief medical
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Speaker 2: examiner there in Fort Worth. Doctor Crowns, I find this
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Speaker 2: baffling and confusing that so many bodies have been pulled
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Speaker 2: out of Ladybird Lake, but police are continuing to say
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Speaker 2: it's all just coincidence. Could you explain to me whether
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Speaker 2: in life of psychology reports that it could be determined
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Speaker 2: if these victims had been drugged anyway.
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Speaker 11: So the toxicology of reports will tell you what drugs
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Speaker 11: are in the system, and there are certain drugs that
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Speaker 11: are used to try and.
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Speaker 12: Coerce or to.
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Speaker 11: Drug an individual like ro Himbi and I think is
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Speaker 11: one of the daybreak drugs. But if you're seeing other
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Speaker 11: types of drugs, it may or may not have been
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Speaker 11: used coercely. So it's difficult to say this on toxicology.
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Speaker 11: The problem is, as you pointed out, you have many
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Speaker 11: bodies coming from the same area in a short period
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Speaker 11: of time, so you have to kind of wonder if
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Speaker 11: they're clustering like that, what's going on and what's causing it.
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Speaker 11: It's more than just as simple, oh, they all happen
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Speaker 11: to go to the same area and die. I do
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Speaker 11: feel that that's something the Medical Examiner's office in Travis
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Speaker 11: and the police in Austin should be really looking at.
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Speaker 10: Why are all.
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Speaker 11: These same people ending up and dead in the same area.
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Speaker 11: There's got to be a connection.
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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, can I say something sure, Chapin.
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Speaker 7: There's a lot of talk that all of these bodies
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Speaker 7: have been found near Rainy Street, and that isn't true.
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Speaker 7: There have only been I'm looking at our map right now,
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Speaker 7: there have only been two found near Rainy Street, where
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Speaker 7: the victim was reported last seen on Rainy Street since
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Speaker 7: twenty twenty two. The rest of it in all different
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Speaker 7: parts of Ladybird Lake, which again, if you're looking at
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Speaker 7: it on a map, that looks more like a river.
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Speaker 7: So I think it's really important to note that all
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Speaker 7: of these bodies aren't showing up near Rainey Street.
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Speaker 11: That's good to know, yeah, but that's not Laborg Lake
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Speaker 11: have a current associated with it, so those bodies can
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Speaker 11: be being dropped at the centralized location and then washing
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Speaker 11: down the rivers, so they don't look at there.
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Speaker 7: That has been found upstream from Rainey Street.
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Speaker 2: Upstream Ot is that Dodger Kendall crown speaking. Yes, sorry, okay,
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Speaker 2: doctor Kendall Crowns, you took the words straight out of
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Speaker 2: my mouth. Because the current leading into and out of
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Speaker 2: and in Ladybird Lake is considerable and your analysis is correct.
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Speaker 11: Well, that's actually one of the reasons why they don't
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Speaker 11: want people swimming in Ladybird Lake is because the current
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Speaker 11: is very dangerous and people that aren't very good at
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Speaker 11: swimming get caught in that.
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Speaker 12: Current and drown.
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Speaker 2: Is a serial killer stalking the Austin area, particularly a
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Speaker 2: popular nightlife area called Rainy Street not far from downtown.
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Speaker 1: Austin.
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Speaker 2: It was the death of Clifton Axtell, forty six. He
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Speaker 2: was found March twenty twenty three. The cause of death
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Speaker 2: COEOD ruled undetermined. Other bodies, according to police, are not
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Speaker 2: being investigated as homicides. So I'm supposed to believe that
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Speaker 2: these guys, all male, were just drunk and fell in
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Speaker 2: the water. Police say multiple victims were basically drunk or
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Speaker 2: high and fell into the water and just died. That
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Speaker 2: includes Ricky Parks, his body was found July twenty twenty two.
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Speaker 2: He drowned, Christopher Gutaris, Kyle Thornton, Christopher Hayes Clark. They
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Speaker 2: were also deemed not suspicious. Two of the victims, Jason
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Speaker 2: John and Jonathan Honey, were deemed to a drowned accidentally.
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Speaker 2: Both men last seen on Rainy Street. One man, Hussu Moreno,
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Speaker 2: shot while driving his vehicle, plunging into the reservoir. You
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Speaker 2: think that's a heart attack too. Local bartenders state they
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Speaker 2: have a hard time excepting there is not something much
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Speaker 2: more sinister going on. I mean, what's the likelihood that
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Speaker 2: all that we know of, I've got drunk end quote,
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Speaker 2: fell in the water. Let him go to Alan Bennett,
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Speaker 2: former felony prosecutor now partner at Gunter Bennett and anthus
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Speaker 2: at gbafirm dot com. Alan, I mean, you're a former
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Speaker 2: felony prosecutor like myself. If you're prosecuting this case or
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Speaker 2: investigating it, do you really care if the victim is
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Speaker 2: pushed into the water or dumped upstream in the lake
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Speaker 2: or downstream?
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Speaker 1: Do you care?
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Speaker 2: It's a series of young men of men dead in
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Speaker 2: and around Lady Bird Lake. So I appreciate the distinction,
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Speaker 2: and it sounds like a wonderful distinction a veteran defense
22:39
Speaker 2: attorney might make at trial. But I have handled serial
22:45
Speaker 2: murder cases. I have argued them to the Georgia Supreme Court.
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Speaker 2: What are the first ones?
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Speaker 1: You'll like?
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Speaker 2: This for its analogy to the current case, Alan Bennett,
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Speaker 2: was a string of young blackmales were killed in Atlanta,
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Speaker 2: Everyone within a certain age range, everyone African American, everyone
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Speaker 2: killed with I believe it was a thirty six caliber
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Speaker 2: in the head in the middle of a sex act,
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Speaker 2: or so police thought.
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Speaker 1: But yet no one would say serial killer.
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Speaker 2: Well, it was a serial killer who would lure these.
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Speaker 1: Young guys out of a bar, go out to have
23:29
Speaker 1: sex and kill them? Why? I don't know. Did he
23:32
Speaker 1: hate himself, did he hate them? I don't know, and
23:35
Speaker 1: I don't care why.
23:37
Speaker 2: But he was a serial killer ever the longest time,
23:40
Speaker 2: nobody would say serial killer, and.
23:44
Speaker 1: I don't know why.
23:45
Speaker 2: But when you have this many bodies, whether they're upstreet,
23:48
Speaker 2: in the lake or downstream, they all have to be
23:51
Speaker 2: examined very closely.
23:53
Speaker 12: Allan yes, ma'am, I would agree. I think o psychology
23:57
Speaker 12: reports need to be done on all of those folks.
24:00
Speaker 12: I can't speak to this investigation directly in I can't
24:03
Speaker 12: speak for APD, but having worked with APD the last
24:07
Speaker 12: thirty seven years now, both as a prosecutor, infens learning.
24:10
Speaker 12: One thing I see across the board, and I'm sure
24:14
Speaker 12: you've seen us as well, answer across the board. In
24:16
Speaker 12: law enforcement, any detective, investigator, a forensic analyst, officer, everyone
24:22
Speaker 12: across the board. Good detective work dictates that you work
24:26
Speaker 12: the facts, not the theory, and I've heard that countless times.
24:31
Speaker 12: I suspect APD may take the position that this isn't
24:34
Speaker 12: necessarily a coincidence. There is a common thread to all these.
24:37
Speaker 12: We have a bunch of young people in a very
24:42
Speaker 12: very well working entertainment district, here in Austin a bunch
24:45
Speaker 12: of bunch of alcohol. They're very close to a very
24:48
Speaker 12: dangerous body of water with a strong current. They would
24:51
Speaker 12: say that it's Oncidentally, there are a number in such
24:54
Speaker 12: a short period of time. And I'll be the first
24:56
Speaker 12: to admit the number of bodies found in such a
24:58
Speaker 12: short period of time the old adage where there is smoke,
25:01
Speaker 12: there is fire. That's a lot a lot of smoke.
25:04
Speaker 12: But I think former speciality of friends will hopefully agree
25:08
Speaker 12: with me. You have to work the facts and not
25:10
Speaker 12: the theory. The facts and the clues will help you
25:13
Speaker 12: develop the theory. The theory doesn't help you develop facts,
25:17
Speaker 12: and it may very well be as Miss Hollismans the
25:19
Speaker 12: long ago APD, they close cases, but they will also
25:23
Speaker 12: administratively close the case, which basically means we're just not
25:27
Speaker 12: doing anything right now. We don't have any lease to follow,
25:30
Speaker 12: we don't have any anywhere this is taking us.
25:33
Speaker 1: They're not going to go more.
25:34
Speaker 12: If additional evidence comes up, as doctor Brown to mention, absolutely,
25:38
Speaker 12: they'll reopen that case if they can find that common thread,
25:41
Speaker 12: and it may as well be the currently APD is
25:44
Speaker 12: not finding the common thread that our intuition tells us
25:49
Speaker 12: must be there, should be there, and it must be
25:52
Speaker 12: something more than simply young folks bunch of alcohol close to.
25:56
Speaker 1: A bottley of water.
25:57
Speaker 2: Now, I know why you want so many cases minute.
26:00
Speaker 2: I agree with everything that you just said. But for
26:04
Speaker 2: Austin Police to just come out and announce there isn't
26:06
Speaker 2: a serial killer at this juncture, I think is highly,
26:09
Speaker 2: highly premature and a risk to the public because we
26:13
Speaker 2: really don't know. And you're right, you've got to follow
26:16
Speaker 2: the facts before you develop a theory. Another thing you
26:20
Speaker 2: said that I think should be very comforting to Miss
26:23
Speaker 2: Reagan Apodicio, the mother to victim Christopher Clark's twelve year
26:28
Speaker 2: old son, is that the cases are not closed in
26:32
Speaker 2: the TV sense, in the street and vernacular sense of
26:35
Speaker 2: the word. They are closed, as in, we've got a
26:39
Speaker 2: dead end, we're not giving up. Well, you don't have
26:42
Speaker 2: anywhere to go right now. And I got to tell
26:45
Speaker 2: you something, Reagan. When I became a felony prosecutor, I
26:50
Speaker 2: inherited a courtroom, a very very busy felony courtroom in
26:54
Speaker 2: inter city Atlanta, and I inherited about one hundred and
26:57
Speaker 2: fifty pending cases. While getting about one hundred new cases
27:02
Speaker 2: every week or so. So the case isn't gone, it's
27:06
Speaker 2: not done. It's closed for now until new evidence emerges.
27:12
Speaker 2: And that's why we are talking about this case today.
27:16
Speaker 2: I want to go to doctor Dana Anderson, forensics psychologist,
27:21
Speaker 2: host of Killer Psychologist podcast, and you can find doctor
27:25
Speaker 2: Dana at Killer Psychologist. Doctor Dana, thank you for being
27:29
Speaker 2: with us. Why do you believe police don't want to
27:34
Speaker 2: even entertain discussion of a serial killer in Austin.
27:38
Speaker 4: Well, one reason is you don't want to brighten the public.
27:42
Speaker 4: You want to create that sense of safety. And maybe
27:47
Speaker 4: they do have more information and they don't want the
27:49
Speaker 4: public to know about it. They don't want to create
27:52
Speaker 4: that panic and fear. Although too late, that's actually already happening.
27:57
Speaker 4: If you scour the internet, and even this morning, I
28:00
Speaker 4: went online and looked at the bars on Rainy Street,
28:06
Speaker 4: the Sidebar, and there's hundreds of reviews saying don't go
28:09
Speaker 4: out to these places, you're going to get drugged. And
28:13
Speaker 4: there's lots of information on the internet about these individuals
28:19
Speaker 4: that have gone missing, and a lot of speculation and theories.
28:23
Speaker 4: So there is panic and people want answers and it
28:27
Speaker 4: is concerning to hear that cases are being closed to
28:31
Speaker 4: prematurely agree.
28:33
Speaker 2: Agree and again based on what Alan Bennett was just explaining,
28:37
Speaker 2: the cases may not be closed in the layperson understanding,
28:41
Speaker 2: they're closed, as in, we don't have any updates right now,
28:46
Speaker 2: we're waiting for more evidence to be uncovered.
28:49
Speaker 1: It would not be the first.
28:51
Speaker 2: Time, by any stretch that a serial killer stopped an area,
28:56
Speaker 2: while police steadfastly deny any such apparition as a serial killer.
29:04
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut sixteen A.
29:06
Speaker 2: This is Dave Mack from Crime Online discussing a recent
29:10
Speaker 2: spate of murders. For the longest time, police refused to
29:14
Speaker 2: acknowledge a serial killer.
29:16
Speaker 1: Alert to the area.
29:17
Speaker 8: Listen with Eric Opania's description of the man, the make
29:20
Speaker 8: and model of the truck. Authorities were able to identify
29:22
Speaker 8: Border Patrol Agent one David Ortiz as their suspect. As
29:26
Speaker 8: authorities mobilized to look for One David Ortiz, they couldn't
29:29
Speaker 8: find him. After Painia's escape from Martes, officers only knew
29:32
Speaker 8: of victims Melissa Ramirez and Claudine Duerra, but while they
29:36
Speaker 8: were chasing after him, they heard about a third body
29:39
Speaker 8: that had been found, later identified as thirty five year
29:42
Speaker 8: old Gizelda Alisa Hernetez kno. Believing Ortiz will return to
29:46
Speaker 8: the home he shares with his wife and children, authorities
29:48
Speaker 8: head to his home, hoping to avoid an armed confrontation.
29:51
Speaker 2: That's right, a Border Patrol agent was in fact a
29:53
Speaker 2: serial killer, and if police had acknowledged that these women
29:58
Speaker 2: were dropping like fly at the hands of serial killer,
30:01
Speaker 2: that last victim may very well have been saved. And
30:05
Speaker 2: that's certainly not the only one. The same thing happened
30:10
Speaker 2: in Oregon. Listen weeks after saying the deaths of several
30:14
Speaker 2: women were not linked to one murderer, Investigators and prosecutors
30:18
Speaker 2: say they're working together on the evidence that now links
30:20
Speaker 2: one person, jesse Lee Calhoun, to at least four of
30:23
Speaker 2: the murdered women. Kristin Smith reported missing December twenty second,
30:27
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, found dead eight weeks later in Portland.
30:30
Speaker 2: Twenty two year old Ashley Real reported missing in Portland
30:33
Speaker 2: April second, twenty twenty three, found dead five weeks later
30:36
Speaker 2: in Clackhamus County. Charity Perry twenty four, found dead in
30:39
Speaker 2: Eastmolnomah County. Bridget Leanne Ramsey Webster thirty one found dead
30:43
Speaker 2: in Paul County April thirtieth, twenty twenty three.
30:51
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
30:58
Speaker 2: Many of the victims who end up in Ladybird Lake
31:01
Speaker 2: had been partying on Rainy Street. It's a really popular
31:05
Speaker 2: bar scene and it's just feet away from the river.
31:09
Speaker 2: Now many believe the party scene in downtown Austin, it's
31:12
Speaker 2: a beloved destination for bachelorette and bachelor parties, has only
31:17
Speaker 2: exacerbated the problems. Witnesses are drunk or high, they don't
31:22
Speaker 2: remember when the victims go missing, or the last time
31:24
Speaker 2: they saw them, or what time they saw them, and
31:27
Speaker 2: then the victim ends up dead in or around the water.
31:31
Speaker 2: How can thirty eight bodies not be connected. Let me
31:36
Speaker 2: go back to you, doctor Kendall, Crown's Chief medical Examiner,
31:38
Speaker 2: Terrence County. Let's talk about potential drugging of the victims.
31:46
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on any way to link some
31:49
Speaker 2: of these victims together.
31:51
Speaker 1: For instance, a date rape drug.
31:53
Speaker 2: Could be used like I believe it was used in
31:55
Speaker 2: the Natalie Holloway case. Or victims could be watched, or
32:00
Speaker 2: they could be partying with the victim and when they
32:02
Speaker 2: pull out their own drugs. That's a perfect chance to
32:06
Speaker 2: rob them or kill them. So I'm trying to figure
32:10
Speaker 2: out all the various ms most operati method of operation
32:13
Speaker 2: a killer could utilize in this scenario. So where would
32:19
Speaker 2: a medical examiner sit into this puzzle to help link
32:23
Speaker 2: victims potentially.
32:25
Speaker 11: So what you can do is when you have a
32:27
Speaker 11: string of victims all from the same area, or you
32:30
Speaker 11: start looking for similarities, you know, as they have a
32:34
Speaker 11: similar pattern of bruising where they similarly tied up, things
32:38
Speaker 11: of that nature.
32:39
Speaker 10: If you're worried about a.
32:40
Speaker 11: Drug someone drugging them and then you know, jumping them,
32:44
Speaker 11: you look for similar if they have similar toxlogic findings.
32:47
Speaker 11: Because the serial killer, if you will, isn't going to
32:51
Speaker 11: be switching up drugs between victims. They're going to go
32:53
Speaker 11: with what works and then continue to use it. So
32:56
Speaker 11: if the medical examiner has noticed you have a cluster
32:59
Speaker 11: of bodies from the area and they all have the
33:01
Speaker 11: same drugs on board, then you have a very obvious issue.
33:06
Speaker 2: Now I've been looking at a lot of the victims
33:08
Speaker 2: and Brianna Hollis may be able to help me out here.
33:11
Speaker 2: KXA in News again, thank you for being with us.
33:16
Speaker 2: So many of the victims, and of course to my knowledge,
33:19
Speaker 2: they're dating back to two thousand and eight, but some
33:23
Speaker 2: of them had facial bruising, some of them had broken bones.
33:28
Speaker 2: I don't really understand how that can fit into an
33:33
Speaker 2: accidental death scenario. But what can you tell me about
33:37
Speaker 2: the most recent victims, Rihanna.
33:40
Speaker 7: So obviously we had a case where a body was
33:44
Speaker 7: pulled from Ladybird Lake. This was near City Hall, which
33:48
Speaker 7: is northwest of Rainey Street.
33:51
Speaker 1: Upstream how far from Rainey Street.
33:53
Speaker 7: Probably about a mile and a half or so two
33:55
Speaker 7: miles and this was identified as a few That's all
34:00
Speaker 7: the information we have, but that is what we know
34:04
Speaker 7: at the moment of this case. Otherwise, like I said,
34:09
Speaker 7: most of my reporting has been on the cases dating
34:12
Speaker 7: back to July of twenty twenty two. I'm looking at
34:17
Speaker 7: our map and our chart here right now, all kind
34:22
Speaker 7: of what you guys have been talking about. Accidental drowning,
34:25
Speaker 7: cause of death undetermined. There's two cases I do want
34:27
Speaker 7: to bring up the and before I get into that,
34:31
Speaker 7: I do want to mention that, of course, every death
34:35
Speaker 7: is a tragedy, no matter how it happened.
34:38
Speaker 5: So I go into these details with you.
34:40
Speaker 7: Know, the utmost level of respect and sensitivity for the
34:44
Speaker 7: family members of these victims. Just wanted to put that
34:46
Speaker 7: out there. But two of the cases that sparked a
34:49
Speaker 7: lot of alarm were the Jason John case and the
34:53
Speaker 7: Jonathan Honey case. These were two instances, the only two
34:56
Speaker 7: incidents in my reporting since I've gotten here, where the
35:01
Speaker 7: victim was actually last seen on Rainy Street. And in
35:05
Speaker 7: the two cases of toxicology reports found no drugs but
35:09
Speaker 7: found alcohol. And then in the Jonathan Honey case, they
35:14
Speaker 7: found drugs consistent with over the counter I believe allergy medicine.
35:18
Speaker 2: Okay, so those two victims on Rainey Street did not
35:23
Speaker 2: have anything such as GHB, gamma hydroxyvity rate or another
35:31
Speaker 2: potential sedative. But to you, doctor Kendall Crowns, in this scenario,
35:37
Speaker 2: if people are getting guys or women to party, getting
35:42
Speaker 2: them drunk, getting them to use drugs, and killing them,
35:46
Speaker 2: I don't know that drugs would be in their system.
35:49
Speaker 11: Well, I they're getting them drunk or any If they
35:52
Speaker 11: aren't getting them drunk, then yes, or giving them drugs,
35:57
Speaker 11: of course there wouldn't be drugs in their system. But
35:59
Speaker 11: if they're giving them anything, it should show up on
36:01
Speaker 11: the toxicology. But of course you could lure them away
36:05
Speaker 11: into those areas and then strangle them and push them
36:08
Speaker 11: into the river or whatever you're doing to them.
36:10
Speaker 12: Who knows at this form?
36:11
Speaker 2: You know? Another issue, and let me go to Dennis
36:14
Speaker 2: Franks on this former FBI special agent now with Investigative
36:18
Speaker 2: Security Global Solutions. Dennis, so many people assume that theft
36:26
Speaker 2: would be the motive with a serial killer. That's not
36:30
Speaker 2: necessarily the motive. The joy of killing is very often
36:36
Speaker 2: the motive.
36:37
Speaker 10: I agree, and you know, I'm not a behavioral science expert,
36:41
Speaker 10: but yet you know these I do not see theft
36:45
Speaker 10: as being a situation where somebody gets robbed and then
36:49
Speaker 10: they kill them and toward them in the lake. I
36:52
Speaker 10: would go on to say that that the oft the
36:56
Speaker 10: police department has a behavioral science unit or experts trained
37:01
Speaker 10: in that they should be looking at this, looking at
37:04
Speaker 10: any patterns anything at all, coordinating with the FBI's and
37:07
Speaker 10: behavioral science unit, looking at statistics nationwide, and looking for
37:12
Speaker 10: any clues at all that might whether or not they're
37:15
Speaker 10: going to admit that this might be a serial killer.
37:17
Speaker 10: They should be doing this, and I would hope they are.
37:20
Speaker 2: All I've been in joining us former felony prosecutor, joining
37:23
Speaker 2: us out of Austin. You've handled so many homicide cases,
37:27
Speaker 2: but in serial killer cases, I mean John Wayne Gacy.
37:31
Speaker 2: He didn't steal from his victims. He molested them, then
37:35
Speaker 2: he killed them and buried him in his crawls base
37:37
Speaker 2: off his basement. Ted Bundy, he didn't rob. While many
37:42
Speaker 2: serial killers do take a mento like jewelry, or they
37:46
Speaker 2: might take a driver's license or a hair rib and
37:48
Speaker 2: or underwear, theft is not the motivator for for instance,
37:54
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy.
37:55
Speaker 1: I could go on and on and on like.
37:58
Speaker 2: Ortiz the Border patrol, I said he hated prostitutes, so
38:01
Speaker 2: we kill them, the boss and strangler for Pete's sake.
38:04
Speaker 2: He didn't rob the victims. He hated them because they
38:07
Speaker 2: were prostitutes. So motivation for serial killers is not by
38:14
Speaker 2: far always theft.
38:15
Speaker 12: I agree n answer. In fact, I'm not sure that
38:18
Speaker 12: I'm aware of any serial killer in history who was
38:22
Speaker 12: in fact motig Boat up and again, how they special
38:25
Speaker 12: agent crimes could give us a better participate. My understanding
38:29
Speaker 12: is that at any given time, the FBI believes there
38:33
Speaker 12: are only about fifty serial killers operating within the United States.
38:37
Speaker 12: Mm hmmm, because our lady mentioned a moment ago. If
38:40
Speaker 12: that is the most is most prevalent crime, that's the
38:43
Speaker 12: most important crime. Serial killers are not I think. I
38:48
Speaker 12: think you're right all the serial killers you mentioned, they
38:51
Speaker 12: are a special breed of people, and they may collect souvenirs,
38:56
Speaker 12: they may take momentos from the victims, but they're not
39:00
Speaker 12: they're not robbing their victims. In fact, I'm not even
39:02
Speaker 12: sure if there's any evidence that any of the bodies
39:04
Speaker 12: that have been pulled from the late or impact victims
39:08
Speaker 12: of robbery orth. I'm not sure if any of those
39:11
Speaker 12: bodies were pulled that had their wallet impacted, their money
39:14
Speaker 12: still in their wallet. I'm not sure if there's any
39:16
Speaker 12: association or any connection of that.
39:18
Speaker 1: Brianna Hollis, what about it, k X A N. Have
39:21
Speaker 1: any of these victims been robbed?
39:23
Speaker 7: Not to my knowledge the ones I've covered.
39:25
Speaker 12: There.
39:26
Speaker 2: You go, Alan Bennett, what you're saying is really interesting
39:29
Speaker 2: to me because I disagree with the FBI, and I
39:33
Speaker 2: certainly don't want to poke the bear. It's like having
39:37
Speaker 2: a tiger by the tail. You can't hold on and
39:39
Speaker 2: you can't let go, but it'll be a cold day
39:41
Speaker 2: in HG double L. There's only fifty serial killers in
39:45
Speaker 2: America right now.
39:47
Speaker 1: No, they may only know.
39:49
Speaker 2: Of fifty serial killers in America, but I guarantee you
39:52
Speaker 2: that is woefully, woefully under reported to you joining us.
39:59
Speaker 2: Brianna Hollis KXA N. I'm curious as to the physical
40:04
Speaker 2: appearance of the victims. What can you tell me about that?
40:08
Speaker 2: Are they similar in appearance?
40:10
Speaker 7: That's something I don't know directly. The only information that
40:13
Speaker 7: we've gotten from police regarding this was just difficulties when
40:19
Speaker 7: it comes to the autopsy and the investigations because of
40:23
Speaker 7: you know, bodies being in the water with you know,
40:27
Speaker 7: bloating and decomposition and whatnot.
40:30
Speaker 2: Many of them are light complected with dark hair. That's
40:34
Speaker 2: my observation so far. And as you know to Dennis
40:39
Speaker 2: Frank's former FBI now in security, serial killers typically kill
40:46
Speaker 2: within their own race. Also, they have a type a
40:51
Speaker 2: type of victim to which they gravitate. I mean, if
40:55
Speaker 2: you look at Ted Bundy's victims, they all look like
40:59
Speaker 2: then will white females with dark hair, part of down
41:02
Speaker 2: the middle. There are a few variations, but that's what
41:05
Speaker 2: you find very very often What do you make of that,
41:08
Speaker 2: Dennis Franks, Yeah.
41:09
Speaker 10: I think that's true. I think that they're usually a
41:12
Speaker 10: pattern of the victims with serial killers, and I've been
41:15
Speaker 10: looking at that in these uh you unfortunate does and
41:19
Speaker 10: it does seem that there the victims do have that
41:23
Speaker 10: picture of look. It doesn't seem for sure, you know,
41:28
Speaker 10: certainly there's not random you know, victims or people who
41:32
Speaker 10: have found that of different uh you know, different looks.
41:37
Speaker 10: And so that's a factor that I think is important
41:40
Speaker 10: in this because you're going to look at any pattern
41:43
Speaker 10: you can, and that's an important pattern, and then you're
41:46
Speaker 10: going to look for other commonalities. And you know, it's
41:54
Speaker 10: it's a mystery that they may not say that it's,
41:57
Speaker 10: you know, a serial killer, but they have to be
42:00
Speaker 10: looking at it. I just can't see why they wouldn't.
42:03
Speaker 2: The city of Austin has announced that more safety measures
42:06
Speaker 2: like lighting and fencing around the lake are going to happen.
42:11
Speaker 2: They're also quote considering part rangers around the water and
42:17
Speaker 2: more surveillance cameras. Okay, wait a minute, why are you
42:20
Speaker 2: still quote considering it. I considered it for about five seconds,
42:25
Speaker 2: and I think you should do it immediately. How many
42:28
Speaker 2: more bodies have to be pulled fished out of Ladybird
42:34
Speaker 2: Lake before safety measures are taken. I look for patterns.
42:41
Speaker 2: There is a pattern. Males within a certain age bracket
42:47
Speaker 2: from a certain location, on certain times of the night
42:52
Speaker 2: are going missing and ending up dead in Ladybird Lake.
42:58
Speaker 2: The lattice remains in Ladybird Lake we believe belonged to
43:04
Speaker 2: a teen boy. The seventeen year old African American male
43:09
Speaker 2: was with his family when he goes missing around seven pm.
43:14
Speaker 2: Now why do we think it's him Because there's an
43:16
Speaker 2: initial identification of the victim's clothes that matched the description
43:24
Speaker 2: of the teen boy pulled from the water. Whether the
43:28
Speaker 2: teen boy's death is foul play or not, it brings
43:33
Speaker 2: to light the other thirty seven bodies and the possibility
43:39
Speaker 2: that a serial killer is stalking the city of Austin.
43:44
Speaker 2: I don't understand how that possibility can be ruled out.
43:49
Speaker 2: We wait as justice on false goodbye for