Latest / The Bad Roman: Christian Politics for Modern Times / Was America Founded as a Christian Nation? Faith, History & Power with Daryll Bryant

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Was America Founded as a Christian Nation? Faith, History & Power with Daryll Bryant · The Bad Roman: Christian Politics for Modern Times

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They didn't say, hey, you can believe in Jesus as your savior and Augustus or Tiberius or whoever at the time, Nero or whoever you can have him as your Caesar and Jesus is just your savior and every- thing's okay.
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Jesus will get You to heaven, but we really need to make Rome great again.
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There's nothing in scripture anywhere that says that Christians are to be about making pagan nations great again.
Darrell Bryant, welcome to the Bad Roman Podcast.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, for sure.
I appreciate you sending me this article.
I don't know, we've talked maybe a little bit on social media stuff and, Yeah.
but you sent me this article and I was like, we need to talk about this on the show because it, it, I'm seeing it at least once a week.
And you'll see, don't know how your, what your feed looks like on Facebook, but I'll see a post, a random post from somebody I don't follow.
There's something that pops up in my algorithm.
I don't know why it's there, but America's a Christian nation.
And I can't ever help myself.
I had to go on there and explain to them, no, this is not true.
And I don't know if it's, these are just bot farms that are they're posting this stuff or not because there's not a whole lot of resistance in, in the, in the comments whenever I mention this or e- even when I push back against this notion that a Christian nation.
So when you sent me this article, I was like, this is very timely because I'm seeing a lot of this stuff come, pop up on social media.
There's a lot of Christians I know that actually believe America's a Christian nation.
yeah, so the, uh, the prem the idea for the article was the same, the same thing that I was seeing a lot of, a lot of stuff, a couple of guys doing, um, video, YouTube videos and podcasts and stuff about it and getting pretty, uh, almost pretty heated in some of them.
Um, you know, and then you've got your, your fringe guys like Joel Weben and, and different things that are really pushing it.
Um, and I think, so I think the reason that there's not too much pushback, like you said, when you comment on a Facebook article is because most people can't argue it, but they've fallen for the, the propaganda points, the speaking points, just saying it's a Christian nation, we're built on all Christian values, um, you know, these kinds of things, which there is some truth to that.
I mean, there's, there's a sliver of truth to the fact that, yes, the founders of our country were predominantly Christian.
Now, they were also predominantly from very different, uh, um, flavors.
I don't know if that's the right word to use, but different threads of Christianity.
I mean, you had everything from Catholics, uh, on one, uh, end of the spectrum to, uh, you know, your Quaker and, and Amish and your Anabaptists, I think on the other, and a lot in between, uh, Lutherans and Presbyterians, uh, Episcopalians, you know, those kinds of things, uh, kind of everything in between.
Um, one thing that we did have that was a very interesting study, um, leading up to the, to the war for independence, um, was a group called the Black Robe Regiment.
And, uh, they were actually, uh, Anglican and Presbyterian and I think some Episcopalian, but predominantly Presbyterian, uh, very conservative, reformed Presbyterian pastors that were preaching, um, pretty hardcore for independence or, uh, you know, basically exiting the, um, the king and the English system that we were tied to originally.
Um, one little quick tangent, um, I, I hate referring to the war for independence as the Revolutionary War, um, because if you look at history, it was not a revolutionary war, it wasn't a revolt.
Um, we didn't take up arms against England initially.
Um, so in that, in that sense, there was a very, um, biblical Christian, uh, methodology to our independence, um, and that was basically built on the fact of, of Exodus rather than revolt.
So, for instance, when the, when the Israelites were being brought and the Hebrews were being brought out of Exodu out of Egypt, they just simply exited.
They didn't take up arms against Egypt, they just exited the system.
And so we have our, uh, the, the colonies and a lot of the pastors and things at that time preaching or, or teaching the idea of, um, not full on passivity, but, you know, Romans 13 kind of, in my opinion, taken wrongly, but using that as a way of saying, "Hey, we shouldn't take up arms against the government."
And so, uh, they basically just exited the system.
They just said, "Listen, we're out.
We're not following the, the orders of the king.
Um, we're basically declaring our independence."
And then when England brought it to us, we simply def I say us as a country, we defended ourselves.
So there's a, there is a big difference between a revolutionary war and a war for independence.
That being said, um, our independence has a lot of background, uh, from John Locke, um, predic- predic pre- predominantly John Locke and his, uh, political, uh, theories and things, um, which has not come from a biblical or a Christian perspective.
Um, most of our founding can be traced back to Greek and Rome more so than, than the Bible or, or a Christian worldview.
Um, so that's where it gets, that's where it gets tangled, right? Because the majority of our founders were definitely Christian.
Um, I don't think there's anybody that could argue against that.
Um, the argument becomes when you're, when you're saying that we were founded specifically as a Christian nation, um, I don't, I don't think that's, that's true.
I think the reason that it's become so predominant is, um, groups like wall builders, uh, David, David Barton with wall builders doing a lot of preaching and teaching and apologetics and stuff, uh, from that standpoint.
Um, and his, his teaching with wall builders, um, there's some good stuff in it, but it's got a lot of propaganda, a lot of stuff that's just not, um, the dots that he connects, connects in that, in his teachings and stuff aren't connectable, in my opinion.
Well, let's, before we get too far off that, that, that was great because we're gonna talk about all this stuff throughout the show.
Yeah.
But I wanna get some background from you.
So just first time on the show, get, you know, maybe tell us your, your kinda your journey from where you were to where you are now and Yeah.
whatever you, whatever you want us to know about you and then we'll get into the article, talk, get, get more in depth about what you were just talking about because this is a very important topic, especially right now.
So let, let's hear who Darryl Brian is Yeah.
Uh, so for sure, uh, I, uh, originally from Philadelphia, uh, Pennsylvania.
Um, my parents moved to Colorado Springs, uh, in the early '80s, um, just completely relocated.
Um, came to Colorado Springs with no family, no friends or anything.
My brother and I grew up here.
Um, my parents became believers, uh, after we moved here and they, uh, immediately stuck my brother and I in Christian school.
Um, and we went to a very conservative, uh, reformed Presbyterian church, uh, PCA church here in the Springs, um, pretty much all of our, of our growing up.
Um, my mom, uh, both my parents, uh, were very involved in, in politics, local politics.
Um, and then I went to, uh, there's a Christian leadership camp here, uh, in a little town called Manitou Springs, just out of o- outside of Colorado Springs called Summit Ministries.
Um, and they do, uh, Christian leadership, apologetics, worldview teaching.
Um, and so I actually went there two summers in a row as a student, and then I worked there one summer, uh, when I was back from college.
Um, so very, uh, brought up in the, in the reformed Christian, very conservative church, um, politics, apologetics, that kind of thing.
Um, got married, had a couple daughters, and, uh, in the early 2000s, I started a, um, apologetics ministry for college students called Campus Sanity, um, and had a, a weekly radio show, and we did kind of a, uh, a TV show that we cut onto DVD and then sent out to youth groups and churches.
Um, and that was all before YouTube, uh, or anything like that.
And so did that for a little while and then, uh, did some other things ministry-wise, been involved with several churches.
And then for me, a huge turning point in about 2008, um, I read a book called Pagan Christianity, uh, by Frank Viola and George Barna.
And that was a, an eye opener, uh, for me.
A friend of mine asked me to read it and he wanted my opinion, my take on it.
And, uh, and that started kind of a disentangling.
Um, I, I, I, I don't always like using the word, uh, deconstructing, um, because I didn't really deconstruct my faith or my religion or anything, but I did start to disentangle from, um, from pagan Christianity, uh, as the book describes and stuff.
And, um, and so that started me down a, a, a, a interesting path.
Um, at the same time I was, my brother and I were leading a, um, Bible study every Monday night.
We've actually still have it.
We've been going for about nine, 18, 19 years now, uh, every Monday night.
And one of the guys in that Bible study years ago, um, and it was right at the time of Trump's, uh, first election, um, and he challenged me, um, as far as voting, um, from a Christian perspective and, um, or from a biblical perspective, um, and just politics as a whole.
And I though he was absolutely crazy.
I was of the mindset still at that point that absolutely we have to vote because if we don't vote, we're gonna lose control, we're gonna lose all of our protection, all of our provision from a conservative Christian standpoint.
Um, we would just be giving it up.
And he challenged me with some different scriptures.
Um, one predominantly that sticks out is one Samuel eight, where the people come to Samuel and say, "Hey, we want a, we want a king like all the other nations around us."
And, uh, and Samuel says, "You don't want a king."
First, first of all, if you have a king, you're, you're completely rejecting God as your king.
And if you do have an earthly king, this is all the list of stuff that's gonna happen.
And he goes through a whole, whole list of, uh, taxation and, you know, uh, taking, uh, your kids for warfare and, you know, all kinds of stuff.
Basically everything that our country's part of now today, right? so to make a long story short, through that whole process, um, 2016 was the last time I voted.
Um, and, uh, and so my mentality now is, I think, very similar to, uh, the Black Robe Regiment that I mentioned earlier, uh, the pastors and, and preachers of the early days of our country, of our colonies, um, their mentality was, "We just exit the system.
We don't need to fight the system, and the system is definitely not gonna save us."
Um, and so you just walk away.
And, uh, so that's kind of been my mentality, um, teaching, um, and, uh, writing.
So I wrote a book in, uh, 2001, uh, 2001, 2002, called Real Christians, and Christians is spelled with an X, so it.
looks like Real Exians.
Um, and, uh, and that book is free online.
Um, if anybody wants a digital copy, it's realexians, realchristians.com.
Um, and then I also have a Substack where I've put a lot of articles and even some of the chapters of that book.
Um, but Yeah.
that's kind of my mentality now is that, um, if you're looking...
The...
Let me back up.
The, the, the reason that people vote is because they are voting for the person that they believe is going to protect or provide for them the best.
And if they're looking for somebody, an earthly leader to provide and protect for them, then they've rejected Christ, Jesus, as their provider and their protector.
That's my, uh, real, a short version of my, uh, biblical worldview at this time.
Uh, so all that being said, I wrote the article because a lot of, uh, you know, stuff right now is every- everything's kind of raising its head about being a Christian nation.
Um, I think we're a nation founded by Christians, but we are intrinsically not a Christian nation in and of itself.
Yeah.
I think it's gonna be important to separate the two and point out why as we go throughout the show.
the you, you mentioned one Samuel eight.
Now, that was something that maybe if I'd read it before, I kinda started thinking differently.
It would've been, been one thing, but I never really paid attention to it until after I started thinking differently.
And somebody, when I got into these circles, I, I was asking for biblical evidence of what we believe.
And one of the first ones that comes up is one Samuel eight, you know, and he even mentioned in the article too that When you're voting, when you're, when you're demanding another king as the Israelites were, s they've rejected God.
We're rejecting God in that sense as our king.
But you even, it went further and we're getting kinda get jumping ahead in the article.
We'll, We'll, bounce back.
But you've, um, you you brought it up that, I can't remember where it was, what part of First Samuel it was, but he said, "You used to have a king."
Like your rejection of God through your voting, through through demanding a king, whatever it is, means that you no longer have God as your king.
You made the states your king.
And I've tried to make this argument towards two people who come to the project and they're, they're, they're like, "Well, we don't have kings.
We have presidents."
I said, "Well, they just didn't call them presidents back then.
That's a stupid argument.
I'm, you know, let's, let's try let's try to think a little bit better about Yep, Yeah.
at that time, they had kings, right? And then, uh, democracy raises its head during the Greeks, which the Greeks come to power in that, uh, that inner testimon- testimonial period between the Old and New Testament, basically between, between Malachi and Matthew.
We have about 400 years, uh, of history, and in that 400 years is Persia and Greece, uh, and, and you have the whole Tolamy and salucid warfare and everything else, and then the Romans.
So the Greeks kind of were the ones that really, uh, put together the idea of democracy.
And, uh, so here's an interesting, uh, just to play on word, not play on words, but understanding the words, democracy means rule by majority, right? Demos is the people, and so you have rule by the people, a republic, which is what Rome started out as, republic means rule by law.
And so United States now, um, and that's another, whole nother thing is that everybody, you know, starts talking about us being a democracy.
We're, we're not a democracy, at least not yet, um, but we are a democratically elected republic.
And so the republic being the idea that our laws are built, uh, on, on the Constitution, and we elect people to enforce, or most of the time it's not even enforcing the Constitution anymore, it's making absurd interpretations of it.
But you're going back to s to, to the Israelites and Samuel saying you're gonna get a king, and then people saying, "Well, we don't have kings anymore."
Well, the idea i- isn't to get hung up on the word king, right? The idea is the leadership.
Because if you look at what the, what, what Samuel says, "Here's what's gonna happen if you get a king," and you look at what has happened in our country today as far as what, what the leadership has done, it is identical, Yeah.
right? I mean, he says you're, that you're gonna get taxed, you're, he's gonna take your sons and daughters for warfare, um, you know, and he goes through everything, he's gonna take away your land, all of the things that, that it's said there, that's what's happened in our country today.
So it's not the, it's not to get hung up on the word king or president or democracy or republic or whatever, the fact is, is that if we're looking to human leadership to provide and protect for us, that's where we go off the rails.
Um, and I was just talking to a guy, uh, a couple nights ago, um, we were talking about voting and I said, "I don't...
Here, here's a, uh, something that blows people's minds usually is that, the word vote actually comes from the Latin to pray."
Uh, and when people go in, Catholics and stuff go into church, they light these little candles, right? And what do they call those little candles? I think I have one sitting around here someplace, but the little candles are called votive candles, and you light them and put them on, like, an altar or something if you're lighting a candle for a loved one or just for whatever reasons, um, in, in Catholic churches and some other churches and stuff.
Um, so the, i- if you do an etymology, if you study the word vote and take it back to its original meaning, it comes from the Latin to pray or to plead with.
And so that's what you're doing.
If you're, if you're voting for somebody, you, people vote for the person who is going to provide and protect for them the best, as opposed to another candidate, Yeah, right? really good stuff.
I, not to make the show about voting, which we talk about quite a bit on this, on this podcast, but something that's been coming up a lot, and I'm seeing people who, you could tell they're frustrated with, with what's going on, but they still believe they could kind of make some change through voting or, or whatever.
And I, this is one guy, he keeps coming around.
He even started kind of following me on my personal page, but he said, he said, "It's, it's the only way to resist them."
And I was like, Voting is not resistance.
Voting is, is consent to be governed.
Right.
You're not, that's not resistance.
You are asking to be governed.
You're asking to be ruled over when you go to vote."
And then they'll have people who will call themselves an anarchist, who they're not, uh, they're mid-archist at best, will run for political office.
And they'll say things like, "Well, we're doing this to keep more taxes from happening, you know, protect your life, liberty, and property."
Never happened.
them, I said, "Listen, it's, it's, it's not gonna work, first of all."
And I said, "But you, you, you view your life, liberty, and property within the systems of, uh, in a system of oppression where I view my life, liberty, property within the, that exists within the kingdom of God."
There's, there's two different things.
Yep.
God pro God created me with my life, liberty, and property myself.
The government was supposed to protect it.
That was the idea of the Constitution, right, this new, this new republic that doesn't, it's not happening.
Everything first say, in verse Sabul eight, like you said, describes exactly what's gonna happen when you demand a king.
Now, the reason I wanna kinda talk about this a little bit, we'll, we'll move into the article as well, but this is probably gonna publish around midterms.
I think the rhetoric of Are a Christian Nation is gonna ramp up the closer it gets.
And you're gonna see the propaganda from probably the right where they're saying, "If you vote for the left, then you're voting against Christianity," and all this other nonsense that we see pop up among the evangelical types uh, voting comes around when there's a new election cycle.
Anyway, let's start at the beginning of the article.
And this is important because in some of the documents, the founding documents, you see a reference to a God or to nature or...
And so people automatically interpret that as, well, he's talking about the Christian God because they were all Christians.
Well, they weren't all Christians.
We've already established that.
And the, the, the, Constitution itself is supposed to protect religious freedom, meaning it doesn't just so your, your Christianity, your Christian freedom.
That's not, it's, there's also Muslims, Hindus, and they understood this when they were found in the country.
So where, where, is it, where is the disconnect when people say we're a Christian nation when they're reading some of these documents? And first of all, I don't think they're actually going back and reading the founding documents like some of us have understand.
They're just hearing something and they're playing off of it.
But where do you think the disconnect is from people claiming that this is a Christian nation? Who, when I hear this, they'll say this, I'm like, "I want you to prove it to me.
it to me that we're a Christian nation.
Maybe that was an idea of Christianity back then, but if you look at 2026 right now, there's no resemblance of Christianity in this country when it comes to government.
None of it.
They'll have their prayer circles and stuff in the White House.
That's, that's theater.
I think they're praying to it a whole different God than what the, than what we actually believe in.
Well, it's syncretism.
Syncretism, uh, at the, at the very least, I think, is syncretism.
Um, you did a pod couple podcasts ago with, uh, John, um, I just spaced his last name, uh, Kinder.
Um, and, uh, one of the things I think you guys mentioned on that show, um, was the idea of the Asherapoles, um, and the idea that if you look back and read through the Old Testament, the people, uh, the Hebrews never actually rejected Yahweh.
They never rejected their God for other gods.
They just set up other gods- gods all around their God, right? Even coming out of Egypt, when they made the golden calf, most people don't realize this, when they made the golden calf, they didn't reject Yahweh for the golden calf.
They made the golden calf and called it Yahweh, Yeah.
Right.
that's the same type of thing that, that, that's gone on today is, is everything is syncretized.
Um, now, part of it, and this is where, uh, the argument gets a little, uh, dicey when you're, when you're going back with people is, when you look at our founding documents, our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution, none of it outright describes us as a Christian nation.
Now, I think some of the founders of our country, I think a few of them at least, intended for it to be a Christian, a Christian nation, um, but they never set it up intrinsically as a, as a Christian nation.
And I think the reason, part of the reason is, is because they fell back on the idea of states' rights.
We don't have states rights anymore.
States rights went away at the time of this, the, the Civil War.
But prior to that, though, you had state's rights, and if you look at the initial states, and this is where the argument most people take this argument is the, all of the states initially had requirements that you had to be a Christian, uh, I think with the, with the exception of Maryland, um, that you had to be a Christian to hold office.
The problem is, is that was never put in the Constitution.
So once the state's rights go away in the early and mid- mid 1800s, that opens up Pandora's box for all hell to break loose, so to speak, within our country.
And that's exactly what's happened.
So, um, the problem is, is that we were never specifically set up as a Christian nation, and over time, all of those loopholes have been found and, and, uh, ex uh, expounded on, uh, to the point where you, you, we can't backtrack to a point, uh, of ever even being close to what we originally were.
So there's no doubt, I, I don't think anybody argues the fact that at the beginning of our country, we were far, far, far, far more Christian, biblical, uh, in worldview and actions and, and people's mentality and stuff.
Obviously, things were way more, uh, conservative and Christian, close to being a biblical Christian worldview, uh, at the time of the founding of our country.
and today, it's, I mean, it's gone now.
Today, the, I think the reason that this is rearing its head is because we have a president and a contingency of Christians that he has supposed, you know, supposed Christians that he has put in his cabinet and in different positions, and, uh, and some or many of them are, are trying to, uh, spearhead this propaganda of being a Christian nation.
Um, and, and, And it's in name only, right? There's a, uh, I don't know if you remember years ago, uh, I think Rush Limbaugh or somebody coined the term rhino, Republican in name only.
Uh, and I think right now we have a slew of Chinos, Christians in name only.
Um, you know, guys like Pete Hegseth and, and some of these other guys that are in, you know, top positions, um, that are trying to claim, you know, Christian nation and, and Christian nationalism, um, they're, they're, they don't have a basis for their arguments.
They're, they're just trying to, um, drive a wedge between conservatives and liberals, Democrats and Republicans, and that's how they keep control, right? The, the control comes from dividing everybody.
Um, and when the, when the people wake up, hopefully it'll be in our lifetime, but when the people wake up, they'll just walk away from it all.
I- if, if we had an election, if, if come this November, if anybody and everybody that considers them calls themselves a Christian said, "We're not voting, we're out," the system would collapse.
I mean, it would be devastating if, if, you know, seven eighths of the country just decided not to vote on anything anymore.
Yeah.
They wouldn't know what to do.
we've been preaching that right there since the inception of this project.
Right.
And that's what's gonna hap that's what's gonna take.
That's what's gonna, uh, you, know, when, when the people just say, "We're out, we're not participating in any way, shape, or form, uh, voting, taxes, government, we're done.
We're, we're literally just walking away and we're gonna be our own independent, self-regulating people."
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it, the idea that America's a Christian nation, and when I said earlier, I said I, when people say that I want them to prove it.
I want you to prove it to me.
And you mentioned Hexeth and some of these other dopes in, in, in, in, in Washington.
They, they'll say these things, Christian nation, uh, Christian nationalism drives me crazy, but they say all this stuff, they say all this stuff, but it's, there's nothing to, there's no substance to it.
It's just words.
Right.
It's like they say something and they, and they've got enough people duped into believing this that it, it, it helps keep them in control or given some kind of semblance of control.
Now, but there's, if there's no s because you could go, it, Christian nation bothers me because this is one thing that bothers me so much, because you could go to these folks and say, "Listen, biblically, in scripture, I want you to show me nation states are Christian.
Anything about a nation state is cr because you need to look at the fou and how, how a nation state is set up.
Right.
How, how are they funding themselves? What are they doing with these funds? You need to look and, and tell me, is, is there anything that you could see in that, that Jesus would approve of? If you're calling it a Christian nation, wouldn't you think that Jesus would approve of what you're doing? It seems Jesus spent his most, his, his entire ministry speaking out against stuff like this.
Again, out against political power, religious power, religious authority.
He's, his 32, was it 32, 33 years he was on earth the entire time.
Even when he was a child, he was speaking out against this stuff.
Yeah.
me in scripture where we are a Christian nation.
And I want folks, when y'all, when y'all get done listening, we'll plug everything at the end of the show again.
Go read this article because Daryl does a fantastic job of...
I mean, this is one of the deepest arg articles I've ever read on this topic.
Like there was so much information in it too.
And don't have all day to talk about.
I wish we did.
Thanks.
But I want you to kind of, kind of, kind of break that down a little bit because you, when you talk about the founding, you talk about Thomas Jefferson and John Locke and natural rights and all this stuff, this is towards the beginning of the article still as well.
Is there anything that you could see that where Thomas Jefferson was trying to make this a Christian nation? Or where was he getting his information from? Or what he, he didn't, he wasn't specifically referring to Locke, was he? Or was he, because it sounds like a lot of their, a lot of their wording sounds very similar to me.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think he was, I think he was a huge proponent of John Locke.
Um, and there's some other philosophers I mentioned in the article and stuff, but the, the, the idea is, I mean, these guys were coming out of the enlightenment or were still in the, in the, the enlightenment, tail end of the enlightenment.
Um, and so you've got these guys that are going against the king of England.
Um, the king of England, there was still feudalism had, had basically just kind of ended or was in the, in the tail stages, um, to where nobody had private property, right? In, in feudal England, in medieval Europe, the king owned everything and the people could work the land of the king and get some kind of pay or, you know, something be taken care of in some way, shape or form.
They didn't have land ownership or any of those kinds of things.
Uh, private property does go back to a biblical idea, right? When the Israelites go into, to take the promised land, God commands them that everybody get their own piece of land and they're to, to take care of their piece of land according to God's word as they, as they have crops or if they have livestock and those kinds of things.
Um, and if people fall into need, they can sell land, but every seven years, the land goes back to its original owners.
Most people don't realize that.
So the idea of private property does have that biblical background.
Now, John Locke was a huge proponent of private property, um, as well as other, other political ideas that, that come from, again, going back to Greek and Roman, uh, political ideologies.
Um, and so that's where Thomas Jefferson and I think Benjamin Franklin and some of these other guys that are, are proponents of this idea, uh, they're, they're taking John Locke's philosophy and they're not saying, "Oh yeah, John Locke is biblical.
We're gonna go back to the Bible."
They're taking John Locke and saying, "Hey, John Lock's a genius.
We're gonna follow John Locke."
Um, and, and others.
I'm just using him as the, as the main one because he was a predominant voice, uh, at that time, his books and things.
So, um, so that was the founding of our country was built off of the idea of private property, uh, God given rights, um, and then Thomas Jefferson phrasing it more of natural rights, natural law.
There was a very big kind of dichotomy between God's law and, and natural law.
And during the enlightenment, a lot of Christians, uh, tried to bleed them together, the ideas.
And so when you have these guys talking about natural law, so a lot of them are intending it to mean God's law, like our, our rights are given from God, they're natural law or natural rights.
Um, so that's where some of these guys are coming from.
Uh, again, though, they don't go back to God's word.
They're sticking with their, the political ideologies that are proposed by these enlightenment thinkers.
Um, one thing that a lot of people, uh, kind of on our side, I think, tend to jump to is they're pointing out that these guys were all Masons, right? Uh, in their Masonic lodges and everything else conspiring, uh, to make America, uh, an independent nation and that kind of thing.
Um, and so people will attack that and say, "These guys were Masons.
They weren't Christian.
Uh, they say they were Christian, but when they're, you can't be a Mason and a Christian at the same time, those kinds of things.
Um, that's hu- hugely debatable because most Masons aren't high up or into, uh, Masonic, uh, ideology and things.
And the Masons drastically changed, uh, in the mid to late 1800s.
Um, so I think that's a foolish argument to say that they were Masons, and so therefore they weren't Christian.
Um, but going back to, uh, you know, these guys were enlightenment thinkers, they were Masons.
Mas- Masonry is very much built on, uh, demo the ideas of democracy and the ideas of, um, the brotherhood of all men and those kinds of things.
and, and you have the idea of, uh, you know, the, in the Masons, uh, you just have to adhere to one of the, the, uh, monotheism religions.
So you can be either Muslim, uh, Jewish or Christian to be part of, part of the Masons.
So you did have a blending of some of these guys, uh, with other religions or even other denominations that were, um, very much opposed to each other.
Most people don't realize, uh, that, you know, you take guys like the, the Quakers and the Anabaptists on one side and the Lutherans and Presbyterians on the other side, uh, at the time, these guys are almost arch enemies in their theology or, or theological thinking.
Um, and so you have them coming together in the founding of our country, uh, you know, they, they had to be very open-minded, so to speak, in a lot of their, their things.
Now, does that mean, you know, uh, when most people say we're, we're a Christian nation, founded as a Christian nation, I think in the back of their mind what they mean is we were founded on the 10 commandments.
Well, so is like 99.9%
of every other country, right? I don't know a country that says, you know what? In our country, you can murder, you can steal, you can commit adultery.
I mean, nobody says those things are legal or, or right.
So that's, you know, but that's in the back of their mind, that's what they're thinking.
I think that's what they've been propagandized into, into thinking.
You know, the idea, the, the basis of propaganda is you repeat something enough times, people believe it.
Yeah.
That's the, the 10 commandments thing cracks me up because when you got the government, what the, the, like, I think it was the state of Texas wanting to put the 10 commandments up in schools and stuff and I'm like, bit, the, the state, the state violates every one of these things.
Every, every one of these commandments the state violates.
So it's kind of, it's it's hypocritical.
it's theater and it's, it just cracks me up.
Now, I wanna touch on something real quick in the article and then I wanna jump to the Treaty of Tripoli because I found this portion of the article very interesting because I was unfa I'd heard of it, but I was very unfamiliar with it, the way you kind of, uh, broke it down.
But we'll start with this one right here.
The political imagination of the founding generation was therefore not confined confined to Jerusalem.
It also looked toward Athens and Rome.
Even America's vocabulary reflects inheritance.
Senate Republic Capital.
What I find interesting about this too would, if you look back into the early, with the early Christians, early church, they viewed the Roman Empire as pagans.
They u they reviewed them as pagans.
Now, the Roman empire viewed the Christians as pagans.
Correct.
Yep.
when, when, the US government or the founding, or they're using words like Senate Republic Capital, they're getting this stuff from Rome.
And even the early church, like I said, considered the Roman Empire pagans.
When you call America a Christian nation, you ignore this or you just are ignorant to what that is, what's going on here.
America's the new Rome, the new Babylon, I believe.
Um, but if they're taking all their s their, the examples from Rome to, to found this, they're just found in another pagan nation, in my opinion.
Where the early church would consider America or in any nation state as pagan because they've given their devotion over to someone other than Jesus, our king.
Kinda talk about that a Yeah.
bit, because I think this is, this is, an interesting, int- interesting point for people to kinda listen to and think about on this topic.
Yeah.
So here's an interesting, uh, uh, let me try to take it back to actually Christ right before his crucifixion.
so Christ is crucified not because he was espousing love and a way to heaven.
Okay? That is not why he was crucified.
He was crucified because as, as later on in, in Acts 17, uh, they refer to it as, uh, another king turning the world upside down, right? So Jesus comes into Jerusalem as their new king, and he is basically usurping the Pharisees and their leadership.
And the Pharisees knew it, right? Because the Pharisees, if you look at John eight, uh, where the guy is healed, Jesus heals the blind guy and, uh, the Pharisees come to him and say, "Who healed you?" And he says, "I, I don't know this guy."
He didn't realize who it was at first.
They go, they go to his parents and the, the parents don't say, "Oh, it was Jesus."
They say, "Our son is an adult, go ask him."
And then it says later on, right after that, it says, "The reason that they didn't tell the Pharisees was because they were afraid they would be kicked out of the synagogue."
The, the Pharisees had basically already made up the rule that if you follow Jesus, you can't be a part of the synagogue anymore.
And that doesn't mean, "Hey, you're just kicked out of our church."
The synagogue system in, in Israel at the time was the welfare system.
I- if you weren't part of the synagogue, you lost your job and you needed help, there, you had to rely on relatives maybe.
But if your relatives were part of the synagogue, you know, you would be told, "Well, you need to go and get on welfare," and that kind of thing.
So the greatest welfare the world has ever known was Rome at the time of Christ.
That's, that was the Pax Romana, and that's where we get the idea of bread and circuses.
That welfare system trickled down and Herod had his own system and the Pharisees had their own systems.
So when Jesus comes on the scene, he's telling people they need to repent.
Well, repent means to turn away from what you're doing.
It doesn't mean to just confess your sin.
It means to turn, turn 100 degrees and go the other way.
When they come on the scene, John the Baptist and his disciples and then Jesus and all of his disciples, they're proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom of God before the crucifixion and resurrection.
So the gospel of the kingdom of God is not about the believing that Jesus died for your sins and you'll go to heaven.
That's a misnomer.
People jump to, to one Corinthians 15 and Paul says, "This is the foundation of the gospel."
He doesn't say, "This is the gospel."
If you read it carefully, he says, "This is the foundation of the gospel that Christ died and rose again."
That's the foundation.
That, that's what sets up the proof that Jesus is who he says he is, that he is the king of kings is because he rose from the dead.
No other king has ever died and rose again.
So now we jump forward, Jesus is in front of Pilate, right? And Pilate says you're a king and he says, "Well, you say so."
And he says, "My kingdom is not of this world."
Now, in our churches today, we've been taught to believe that this is a way for Jesus to just say, "Oh, don't worry, Pilate.
My kingdom's not gonna compete with yours because my kingdom's of a different world.
My kingdom is of like some celestial, faraway, you know, almost like a Mormon mentality of a different planet.
My kingdom is someplace else in the universe.
My kingdom isn't of this world."
That's not what Jesus was saying.
The word world there means cos is cosmos and it's a jurisdictional term.
Jesus was standing in the priatorium of Pilate, which is a Roman courtroom under a governor of Pi uh, Pilate as a governor.
And when he turns to Pilate and he says, "My kingdom is not of this world," he's saying specifically, "My kingdom doesn't adhere to the rules and jurisdiction of Rome."
We use the same term today.
If, uh, if I, um, let's say for some crazy reason, somebody hears this podcast and says, "Hey, we want you to come and speak at the World Economic Forum next year."
And I go and I speak in, in, at the World Economic Forum in front of everybody there, my response would be, "And you guys are in a totally different world, Right.
You guys play by a totally different set of rules.
You're in a, you're in a totally different la la land than I am."
That's the same idea that Jesus was saying to Pilate.
He wasn't saying, "My kingdom is of some celestial other planet."
He was saying, "I don't play by your rules.
My kingdom is not of this world that I'm standing in as a Roman, Roman courtroom."
Jump forward to Acts 17, like I said, Paul goes into Thessalonica and has to be, uh, gotten out under, you know, secret, get him out of here quick because they were starting to riot.
And these guys come before the, the city, uh, uh, officials and they accuse these people.
They say, "These guys are preaching a different king than Caesar and they're turning the world upside down."
They didn't say, "Hey, you can believe in Jesus as your savior and, Augustus or Tiberius or whoever at the time, Nero or whoever, you can have him as your Caesar and Jesus is just your savior and every thing's okay.
Jesus will get You to heaven, but we really need to make Rome great again."
There's nothing in scripture anywhere that says that Christians are to be about making pagan nations great again.
Yeah.
You know, and you've got 300 years of early church history that backs all that up too.
If you don't wanna go, if you don't wanna go look at it in scripture, go look at early church writings.
There's nothing there that says we should be making Rome great again.
Nothing.
You know, and that's a, that's a, red Until Constantine.
Yeah, until Constantine.
And then that's things, things went off the rail a little before Constantine.
Um, Can you touch on that a little bit too? Because I've had people in the past, and I haven't been able to find it.
it.
it, you apparently know about this, but I've had people in the past tell me that this started prior to Constantine, because I always just, the way I looked at it, it's like the, the early church was going through, they were tired of getting martyred, tired of getting slaughtered by, by Rome.
And then when Constantine gave, came in and, and offered them some protection basically, and then this is where it all went off the rails.
But you're saying it started prior, prior to Constantine, So, I'm kind of curious about this.
so I have a chapter in my book and I actually just wrote a new article, um, kind of expounding on it a little bit more, But, um, I believe that things really went off the rails for the early church.
And this is interesting because I think it's the same parallel of when our country really went off the rails, um, is when they started paying pastors a salary.
When, when being a clergy or a pastor became a profession, that's where things started to really go off the rails, uh, which wasn't predominant until, uh, probably the mid, late 200 AD.
Um, so you're talking probably, probably 75 years maybe before Constantine, um, is where, uh, the clergy or the pastors became a profession.
And as soon as that started to happen, then you'd have all this.
jockeying for position and who's higher, higher than the other bishops over, you know, uh, just priests and, and all these different things.
Um, I, I believe that's where things really went south or started, started to go south.
And then Constantine, you know, Constantine comes on the scene and says, "I had this vision, uh, by this sign conquer, and it's a cross."
And the idea is that Christ is telling Constantine to take up the cross as a symbol and go start conquering other nations, which is like, that goes against everything in scripture, predominantly, right? I mean, the last time that you had, uh, anybody claiming to go and take a, take a, a nation or anything by force was when they took the promised land.
And that can be very well argued that it wasn't just a, "Hey, go in and, you know, take over these countries."
It was these countries had gotten so evil that God used them as a tool to be able to go in and, and, you know, cleanse, cleanse what was going on by these pagan nations.
So totally different.
Uh, I, I don't think Christian, I don't think Constantine, uh, was a, was a Christian, uh, in any way, shape or form.
I think he was an opportunist.
Um, I think he saw, uh, something that he could utilize to get more control.
Um, I, I think Christianity had gotten a foothold in Rome enough, um, at the time to where the idea of if we're gonna go in and just try to slaughter, make martyrs of all these people, it's gonna backfire.
So I think rather, I think he, I don't know if there, who the others were around him at the time and stuff, but he had, you know, bishops and stuff that were in his back pocket, so to speak.
Um, and I think they probably conspired and told him, said, "Hey, you're not gonna be able to, to martyr all of this many Christians.
It'd be better to partner with them, you know?" And so Constantine basically does that.
You have the beginnings of the, what becomes the Catholic church, and that's where we get into major syncretism, right? At that time, the church says, "Well, we need to Christianize all these things," right? We have, December 25th is, uh, Saturnalia, all these big celebrations around Saturnalia and Soul Invictus and, and these different gods.
Uh, so we're just gonna Christianize them and say that Christ was born in December 25th, just happens to be the same time that Saturnalia happens, and so we're gonna do our festival, our holiday, our holy day at the same time that these pagans do their holy day.
Um, and I think it just took on from there.
The syncretism just grew and grew and grew.
to your point about Constantine, and I though this was, that's an interesting thing to think about, because if, if he did have Bishop Spenz in his back pocket, it kinda sounds familiar to what we're seeing now.
Like you can't...
If, if, if instead of trying to slaughter all of them, let's just join, join with them, bring them in as part of our, our bunch.
And it'd be easier that way.
When you look at how America is today, they just try to bring, like, this whole Christian nationalist movement, it's like they're trying, they've co-opted the church and they're trying to bring Christians into, they're not trying, they have successfully brought Christians into statism and following the state and making the, the, state their God.
So I, I kinda saw some parallels listening to you talk about Constantine and the bishops, and then when you talk, it mentioned earlier about, uh, pastors being paid, is there not somewhere in scripture where they, it talks about paying now, because we, anybody with any kind of...
If you could think for yourself, I should let me put it that way.
You, if you could look at modern American churches, it's so, it's corporate.
It's all very corporate churches.
And the article you, you referenced a while ago about what you, when you were talking about Constantine, you sent it to me yesterday.
It's a fantastic article.
We probably need to do a sh whole show on that, on that, topic as well.
But, um, kind of what I, what I was just talking about, have you, are you seeing this as well, or I'm just making this stuff up in my, in my Oh, no, no, no, no.
In fact, I just saw, uh, uh, somebody did a YouTube video the other day and I was watching it, um, showing major pastors, um, that are saying, uh, uh, you know, you have Doug Wilson, for instance.
Um, Doug Wilson, uh, in the argument he was explaining, he used the analogy of a fire.
If there's a fire and all of these people rush together and put out the fire, and then after the fire's put out, you stand around and you're talking and you realize, oh, this guy's Mormon, this guy's Catholic, this guy's actually an, a complete atheist.
Um, but we can still come together to put out a fire.
Um, and so that's what, that's what's happened.
So the idea, I mean, you can look at it, if you're a conservative, you're in, right? I mean, Christians will, will, in the government, as far as government's concerned, as long as you're con- conservative, it doesn't really matter your, the background or your worldview background and stuff.
Um, years ago, uh, I think it was before, uh, when Biden was running, um, Caitlin Jenner became a huge, you know, name.
They were going to her, had her on all kinds of, you know, the, the, the newscasts and different things.
And I think she even, uh, uh, backed Trump, you know, because she's a conservative.
She's a tranny.
But I mean, uh, you know, the idea is, well, at least she's our tranny, right? I mean, it's like, where are we going with this? Uh, so the, you know, you have other guys, I mean, um, who was the other, uh, the conservative, uh, gay guy that got married and then adopted kids, uh, Dave Rubin, Right.
Dave Rubin, same type of thing, sup very conservative in his worldview, but he's gay.
So we can, we can, we can partner with him to get things done.
We can partner with the Mormons, we can partner with All of these different religions, um, you know, to get, to make America better, make America great again, right? I mean, that's the, so that's the syncretism, uh, that follow, that, that comes into play.
If we're a Christian nation how, how do you justify the syncretism? Uh, you can't.
So, I mean, that's, you know, you, you can't be, you can't serve two masters at the same time, Right.
I wanna jump toward, to, forward to the Treaty of Tripoli.
Yeah.
a, um, and this is, so much in this article, folks.
When we get done, please go read this article.
You'll get way more out of it than you're gonna get this conversation because we've, we're talking about a lot in a short amount of time, and this article's very in depth.
Now, maybe break down what the Treaty of Tripoli was.
I mean, there's some language in this treaty that I thought was very interesting and you s you even said that is, that sentence is remarkable.
Yeah, So, the treaty of, the tre that we were, we were at war with the, um, Muslim barber, the barbery, Barbery Coast off of Tripoli, uh, with Muslim pirates from, I think it was 1801 to 1805, something like that.
Uh, we cut the, the Treaty of Tripoli.
Um, the, the, the article, I mean, the, uh, the sentence or the statement that's always brought up by those that try to prove that, that we're not a Christian nation, and most of the time this is brought up by, you know, your atheists, you know, your people that are trying to say that we're, uh, we were never founded under any, uh, religious morals or any of that kind of thing.
So I, I don't think anybody can go that far.
We were founded on good moral principles, many can be found in, in scripture.
And like I've said, the vast majority of our founders were, were strong Christian men, um, and that kind of thing.
but I believe that's different than founding our country as a Christian nation.
Anyway, in the, in the Treaty of Tripoli, uh, Jefferson states, The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."
and so that's, uh, that's what I comment in my article about being a very remarkable, uh, uh, sentence, because that's a, that's a very black and white statement and so what is he, what is he saying there This is a diplomatic, um, treaty with a Muslim nation.
Um, so it's not just, you know, this is, is deeper than just a off the cuff comment trying to gloss over, uh, you know, he's not speaking on the street to a Muslim and say, "Oh, don't, don't, don't, don't worry.
We're not really a Christian nation."
This is in a treaty.
I mean, this is a government document.
there was more than a point you made too about the, that treaty is that in the Arabic language of this, that wasn't even part of the, Jefferson said in that sentence wasn't even part of the Arabic, uh, translation of this, I guess, you would say, or...
So Yeah, this is the part I...
that wa why that was a c- case or...
That I don't know.
Um, I'd have to do probably a little more research, or if there's somebody in your audience that does know the background of that, um, I would love to, to hear more.
Um, uh, I mean, obviously there's copies that have to be made for, you know, both governments and I'm sure there was copies made for different officials in the government and those kinds of things.
Um, so I don't, yeah, I don't know the specific answer to that.
Okay.
It's neither here nor there.
I was just curious if you knew.
Now, one more point in the article, because this is something that we, we see, and then I will talk about your project, Unbound, Yeah.
that you've mentioned in, in messaging as well.
Um, and then I'll let you get out of here.
But this, this, idea that when we're pushing back on this idea that, that, that, America's a Christian nation, then you get pushback from people that they think we just hate America.This
is not true.
We don't hate America.
We...
It's the systems of America that we're opposed to.
governments of the, Yep.
America that we're opposed to.
I, we're su Jesus teaches us to love our neighbor and our enemy.
We consider, consider the systems of this world our enemy.
They are definitely antithetical to the teachings of Christ, we're supposed to still find a way to love them.
Yeah, absolutely.
But so, just because we're talking about this, and I think that this is missed by a lot of people who believe that we're a Christian nation, that we just somehow hate America.
That's not true.
I don't, I don't, hate America.
I don't hate the people of America.
I am 100% opposed to the governments of America, the governments of Israel, the governments of, of Iran.
I don't care what government I'm opposed to because it's, it's enmity to God.
All of them are.
It doesn't matter what, what, what piece of land they're laying on or what, what piece of land they're representing.
Right.
Talk about that a little bit, then we're gonna talk about Unbound, and I'll let you get out of here.
I'm, I'm with you 100%.
I don't hate America one, one bit.
Uh, people, uh, you know, when you talk about different, just different things like this, one of the things that people come back with, their smu snide remarks of, "Well, if you, if you hate America so much, go live someplace else, right? Go find another country that's free to live in."
Well, There's tons of countries that are free, that are just as free as America, uh, or, or I should say the ones that seem free are just as socialized as America, right? Most people don't realize America is a socialized nation.
And I, and I believe we have been, we have gone full into socialism in 2017, 2016, 2017, I think is, was a tipping point where fi over 51% of Americans get their livelihood from the government.
That's a mind blowing statement when you think about what that means.
over 51% are on the government dole and 49 or less percent are supposedly trying to fund the 51% and all of the government and everything else.
Now, I don't think that's...
why we're 40 trillion dollars in debt right I was just gonna say, because we're not really funding it, they're just printing more, printing more money as they go along.
I mean, at this point it's monopoly money.
Anyway, uh, so going back to, um, one of the ar the, the arguments that They always say is, "If you don't like it, leave."
I, I'm not against America.
I, I, I think the, the, the form of government is completely faulty.
It's definitely not biblical.
Um, I think it was way better at the founding of our country, um, way better, way more libertarian, uh, and those kinds of things.
I think where it really jumped off the rails was in 1855, our politicians went from being servants, paid a stipend to, to go to Washington once or twice a year.
And in 1855, Congress voted to pay themselves full-time salaries equivalent to $100,000 a year at that time.
They vote themselves raises every, every year too.
So I mean, it's not, it's, Yeah.
they just pay, keep paying themselves more.
Not even, and their salary is so insignificant to the money they bring in through, uh, from the lobbyist, you know? Oh, absolutely.
Right.
getting rich off all that anyway.
Yeah.
So if they, if we wanted to really get back to the roots, uh, then all politicians should be servants.
They shouldn't make a dime as a profession.
In my.
be a great way to weed out the ones that are there to try to, the corrupt ones, Absolutely.
Yep.
know people, you hear people say this all the time that, that this, this type of system attracts the worst of, of mankind.
And I believe that, you know, what? Pastors, the pastors of churches would, should follow suit.
You would have almost all of the problems, the scandals, uh, the problems of the church would go, instantly go away if pastors were no, no longer paid as a full-time profession.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You mentioned too the founding may be more libertarian and it, it's so, it's...
think America's a great example of what can happen when you reference one Samuel eight.
If he, because it was probably a better i- it was a better idea at the founding compared to what we are now.
Oh, absolutely.
it, all the way to 2026, just reading one Samuel eight.
reading, you're reading what God warned us about in one Samuel eight.
It's so to to me, it's so glaringly obvious that I, and that's where my frustration comes in is why, why aren't other people seeing this? Are they, not ta I think it's because they're not taking the time to go research it themselves.
They're relying on Oh, ab- saying.
They're relying on what their favorite politicians say and they're not looking this up themselves.
They're not trying to think for themselves.
absolutely.
Yeah, that, that's 100, 100% I agree.
so before I let you go, you, uh, are working on a project called Unbound and it's, can be found at school.com.
I'm not familiar with school.
S-K-O-O-L.com.
Yeah.
Tell us a little bit about, about, Unbound and I'll let you get out of Yeah.
So it's a, it basically is a, is a community that I, um, am, am putting together.
Um, it's super cheap, seven bucks a month.
Um, the only reason I'm charging anything is just to weed out uh, really weirdos from getting involved a little bit.
Um, but it'll be, um, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll be watching it so it's not gonna get run off with comments of of bad apples, so to speak.
But if anybody's looking for a place to, uh, be in community together, ask the tough questions as far as disentangling from, uh, politics, uh, churchianity, um, all those kinds of things.
It's all listed on the front, front page and it gives a big explanation.
But it's just a community where we can come together, we can ask hard questions, get, uh, you know, look at, like you were just saying, do some study, um, talk amongst ourselves without having, um, you know, to worry about stupid people saying things like, "Well, if you don't like it here.
leave."
You know, it's not gonna have that kind of stuff.
It's gonna be people that are wanting to really think and learn and understand, um, and basically sharpen one another, help each other grow.
Um, as a community, I've got, uh, a bunch of articles and courses and stuff that are in there already and, uh, and we'll be doing, uh, weekly live discussions and, um, Yeah.
it'll just be a, a community to, to be able to learn from one another and to sharpen one another and help each other out of the disintent, the, the tanglement of tribal politics and, um, you know, churchianity that's teaches things that are not even biblical, that are taught as biblical, all those kinds of things.
So, um, there's also a lot of links, like I said, I wrote a book, uh, that I've given away for free.
Um, they can go to real, realexians.com,
Real Christians with an X.com,
um, or the Un- Unbound, uh, if you just go to school, S-K-O-O-L.com
and then search Unbound, um, it should pop up.
uh, Substack is under Real Christians as well, Real Excians.
Um, you can find my Substack there as well.
And I have links to my Substack in the school and on realexians.com,
uh, all of its links together so you can find stuff pretty easily back and forth.
Plus I'm on all the social media, uh, YouTube, Facebook, uh, Twitter, Instagram, all of it, so.
We'll have all of that in show notes.
My producer's fantastic at finding all these links and she'll, she'll, put them all in there.
So Cool.
that's, uh, didn't get it, what, at the close of this show, go check out the show note to go look up Darryl.
Um, this has been fantastic.
you're Yeah, thanks.
I, I love, I love getting to talk to people who spend a lot of time, well, a lot of time where they're very, they're very intentional about their writing and I, I, I see that in what you've sent me so far to read and I appreciate that.
That, that article you sent me last night, I do wanna do a show with you on that if you're interested Yeah.
on in the year or first part of next year or Sure, sure.
but for now, we're gonna, we're gonna use this one probably to hopefully either stir up a hornet's nest or get people to kinda, wake up and start thinking about this a little differently.
Yeah, I'll look forward to any, uh, comments or questions, so...
For sure.
Um, Darrell, I will let you get out of here, enjoy the rest of your Friday afternoon and I will talk to you soon.
Thanks, man.