Latest / MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt / Ashley Ciminski: Ketamine, EMDR & What Actually Works for Trauma Healing
Transcript
- Brynne Erickson (00:28) Ashley Siminski, I am so excited to have you here with us tonight. How are you feeling about being on middle ground? Ashley Ciminski (00:34) I'm so happy. I'm just thrilled to be here, got the kids to bed, and I've just been relaxing leading up to this. So I'm excited. Brynne Erickson (00:43) all the good vibes. Let's put them into this. It's gonna be great. We're talking about some kind of heavy stuff. We're gonna be talking about mental health today. Ashley is a clinical mental health counselor and she's been in this field for how long now, Ash? Ashley Ciminski (00:45) Mm-hmm, for sure. ⁓ three years now. Brynne Erickson (01:00) How did you find yourself in this realm of health? Ashley Ciminski (01:05) Man, so I took a test at a career day when I was like 16 or 17 and I remember getting like orange or something, which I don't even know what test it was because it wasn't the Myers-Briggs, but who knows? And the career that it had suggested for me was a therapist and I was just kind of like, that sounds cool. And then for like the next couple of years, when anyone asked me what I wanted to do, I would say I want to be a trauma therapist. Well, and I look back at that now and I was just such a naive little baby and I did not understand the realm of trauma, but it really was like a calling where it was like I didn't understand it yet. I knew that's what I wanted. And now having trauma be my main focus. It has been like self-fulfilling prophecy, if you will. Brynne Erickson (02:01) That's really cool. That's awesome. So you went to school, did your undergrad. What schooling is required to become a counselor versus a therapist? Ashley Ciminski (02:05) Mm-hmm. So I am a therapist and a counselor, it's all the same. ⁓ So people will use the term counselor more often for like an LCSW, which is like social work, so more macro ⁓ type approach. I do more micro, which would be more therapist, but it really is a fluid term. So it really just depends on what the person feels better using. I will go by either of them. ⁓ But it took... Brynne Erickson (02:16) Is it? Okay. Okay. Ashley Ciminski (02:40) my bachelor's in psychology. I got that at U of A where I met Brynn. And then I got my master's in clinical mental health counseling in 2022, 2023, 2023. So because you do a year of clinicals and practicum leading up to graduation where you practice. And then once you graduate, you have to get 3000 hours to be Brynne Erickson (02:45) Yes. So 23, okay. Ashley Ciminski (03:09) independently licensed by the state and I just completed that so now I am getting ready to sit for the state exam to be independently licensed so then I can open my own practice or whatever I choose to do but yeah. Brynne Erickson (03:10) Okay. Yay. Very cool. That's so exciting. Way to go. Ashley Ciminski (03:25) Mm-hmm. I love it. It really is my dream job. Brynne Erickson (03:29) Very cool. I love, I know for me growing up, mental health wasn't a real, real thing, right? Like it was kind of made fun of in movies and stuff. You'd go and see your therapist, your shrink, right? But now we are learning so much more. And so many people are feeling that calling to psychology and mental health, which I think is amazing because it. Ashley Ciminski (03:38) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (03:52) I mean, doesn't it make sense that our brain needs to be taken care of just as much as every other organ and muscle and bone in our body? Ashley Ciminski (04:02) Mm-hmm. for sure. And I have this conversation often with clients that are just like I just don't know like there's nothing actually wrong with me I just stress all the time and it's like that is your body telling you something's not right, something's not firing okay, or even the medication side of psychology where they're just like, I don't want to take meds because I don't want to be dependent on medication. And I'm like, but if this was medication to keep your heart functioning, would you take it? Like anxiety and stress and depression, they impact your physical body as much as your physical health can impact your mental health. Like it is all one system. Brynne Erickson (04:17) Yes. Yeah. Yeah, like they're not separate entities. Like they are literally linked together. So to deny that our brain doesn't need help just seems kind of sad to me because we know so much and we can help that part of the anxiety, the depression, the stress and live lives that are alleviated of those things, right? Ashley Ciminski (04:46) Right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't even require suffering to need mental health help either. Like even just recognizing I only keep friends for a couple of years and then I move on to the next. What's going on there? Or it's really hard for me to have a long term partner or rely on my my partner for things. Those are all. Brynne Erickson (05:12) True. Ashley Ciminski (05:27) like things that can be worked on in therapy or even like I have a short fuse with my kids or I don't understand where I'm at spiritually. Like it doesn't take the suffering to be like, OK, I need help like the everyday stuff. It's also so great to have a third party unbiased person to just kind of sit in on your life and be like, how can we improve your your relationship, your capacity, your top, your tolerance threshold stuff like. Brynne Erickson (05:55) That is so true. In fact, I have stepped into the world of like life coaching and mentorship and I've realized that I want to have some form of a mentor as much as I want to have like a gym membership or a personal trainer because I love when something is bothering me or I've become more aware of like a pattern that I have that is not allowing me to show up as the person that I really want to be. I can bring it up with that. person I'm working with, my mentor at the time, and they'll help me work through it. And it's been really empowering. So I'm really glad you brought that up. Ashley Ciminski (06:27) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and there's so many varieties of ways of healing like I know sometimes there can be a life coach versus therapy Feud if you will ⁓ but to me, I'm like healing is healing my ⁓ Guy that I work with he always would say ⁓ Whatever works works Brynne Erickson (06:39) Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ashley Ciminski (06:49) And I think that's a great way to look at any type of help, whether that is more energy healing or I even did my first breath work a couple of weeks ago. That was amazing. Like healing is healing. I don't think that there really is a stigma on what that should look like. But having just this this life raft that isn't your people changes things. And I just wish more people could experience that because. Brynne Erickson (06:49) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ashley Ciminski (07:15) There's some things you just can't do on your own and even and I want to even put this little caveat in there. Sometimes people are like, well then just rely on God more or your higher power more and then you can do it yourself. And it's like, but I also think we were given humanity as a gift. Like being able to talk human to human, this is what I'm going through, is just as much as a gift as your relationship with your higher power. Brynne Erickson (07:25) you Absolutely. Yeah, I love that. And there's some things important about like that unbiased person in your life too, that really doesn't know your history, your background, or even your quirks and your struggles. Like you get to decide what those are rather than the people in your life telling you, you have such a problem with this. yeah, whereas like your counselor, your therapist, your coach can be like, Ashley Ciminski (07:48) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Brynne Erickson (08:09) I'm noticing this and then, yeah, I've heard that before or I've never heard that before. It's just totally different to have that unbiased, unattached perspective, I think too. Ashley Ciminski (08:12) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. For sure. And like, as the person saying it, like, I'm going to tell you about me through my eyes. Like, you don't know me through anything. Like, my therapist, it's so interesting the things that she knows about me ⁓ versus like anyone else in my life. Like, she knows this just very specific side of me. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (08:30) Yeah Ashley Ciminski (08:45) that like is so vulnerable because she has no skin in the game because she can be like, I'm recognizing this pattern with this specific person in your life or that sounds more like a you problem than a them problem. Like having someone kind of call you on your crap is super helpful. And I, I try to be that for, for my clients as well. It's just like what I always say to them. And if any of them hear this, they'll probably laugh. But I say, I'm saying this with love. And then I kind of like bring down the hammer of like Brynne Erickson (08:57) Tough love. Yeah. Ashley Ciminski (09:14) Sounds like it's a you problem. But it's moments like that where I can say that and they may have difficult feelings with me or have emotions come up, but it is just a relationship. So it's like, tell me what you think about like that. Let's talk through it. If you're mad at me, let's talk through it. Like this is the best place to practice conflict resolution because neither of us fail by improving conflict resolution. And yeah, so it's just there. There is no way to fail therapy. Brynne Erickson (09:16) you Yes. Yes. you Ashley Ciminski (09:44) even though sometimes it does take a minute to find your right person, whether that is a life coach or a therapist or breath work or energy work or whatever. Brynne Erickson (09:52) Yes. Yeah, that's a really good point as well. If you don't mesh with the first person that you try or even the second or third, like don't give up. It doesn't mean it's not for you. It just means that that person wasn't a good fit. And just like all relationships, you're not meant to be friends with everybody. And I think that's the same, like your doctor, if you don't like your doctor, you go get a new doctor. It's the same concept, right? Ashley Ciminski (10:04) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. For sure, for sure. And it has taken a lot of work that they do like in schooling. So I don't take that personal. I'm like, I can't be everybody's cup of tea because if I was, I wouldn't be authentic to me if I was for everybody. And just kind of taking that approach of like, I say that in intake usually is like, how is this working for you? Like we both are deciding to work together. It's not just, am I going to take on your case? It's do you want me to? Like making it this dual. Brynne Erickson (10:25) Right? Mmm. Right. Ashley Ciminski (10:47) decision, I find really empowers like the autonomy of the client so they can be like, this is what I'm looking for in therapy. Can you do that? And I can honestly answer yes or no. And there has been times when people tell me something that they're experiencing and I'm like, I am uneducated on this. I will educate myself, but we'll both be learning together. Is that okay with you? And most people say yes because you're like, they just recognize the Brynne Erickson (11:11) Right. Cool. Ashley Ciminski (11:16) I am no omnient being, I don't know at all and I will never pretend to. Brynne Erickson (11:22) Yeah, it's, do, because my husband's a doctor, so it's funny when people expect him to have all the answers and he's like, I do not, I really do have to Google things and I really do have to look at the physician's reference. So I love that you're willing to be honest and rather than pretending like you do know it all, that's so cool. And I think you both could be reading the same thing, like on Google, but you would be able to understand it so much better than I could. Ashley Ciminski (11:30) Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. Brynne Erickson (11:50) because of your experience and your background and your learning and your education, whereas I have very minimal of that rather than what I'm taught by the professional. So that's actually, that could be a really cool and empowering process. I love that. Ashley Ciminski (12:00) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, for sure. Brynne Erickson (12:05) Cool. So Ash, I'm curious, ⁓ what are we learning about trauma? Like what is trauma? I know this is kind of a hot word and a buzzword and it's all about ⁓ trauma. So what can you teach us about that topic? Ashley Ciminski (12:15) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love trauma. And I catch myself saying that because I don't love that trauma happens to people, but I love when people recognize the trauma and then they're able to heal it. But ⁓ I like this saying that comes in a CPTSD workbook, which is complex PTSD, complex, complex post-traumatic stress disorder. That's kind of where little micro traumas happen repeatedly throughout your life, such as having abusive parents, living in unsafe situations, things like that. ⁓ But it says how it ⁓ defines trauma is you are not broken and needed fixing instead of you are deeply wounded in need of healing. And I think that's a beautiful way to look at trauma because it trauma at its core is so personal. and it's like an event happens and you and I can be in the same event and we both interpret it different and so does our nervous system. So when your nervous system gets alerted, fight, flight, freeze, or fawn, things are happening, alarm bells can get stuck along the way and then Brynne Erickson (13:19) Right. Mm-hmm. Ashley Ciminski (13:32) let's say a dog barks and then we get hit by a car. So every time I hear a dog bark, my nervous system starts freaking out and you're like, what's going on? And I'm like, remember that dog barking before the accident? And you're like, I don't remember that at all. And I'm like, every time I hear a dog bark, my nervous system feels unsafe. ⁓ And that's kind of how your body processes it. It kind of is trying to preemptively minimize further damage. So what that can look like in each person is different, but how to recognize it is, is the way that I'm responding to this situation like, quote unquote, normal? it, is, am I feeling a constant state of overwhelm and a lack of safety? There might be some trauma that has happened around this or I might feel unsafe in a relationship. when my partner starts yelling at his video game because I know what it feels like to be yelled at and I don't feel safe even though there isn't a court like I know my partner's not gonna hurt me but I don't feel safe and this can happen even with medical trauma. ⁓ When I had my first daughter I experienced quite a bit of trauma and ⁓ two weeks later. Yeah, so with my first daughter, I had trauma on the operating table with the anesthesia not working and I was able to fill the C-section and then two weeks later I had to go in and get my gallbladder out with the same anesthesiologist and I was like, my nervous system was not okay. Like where I was like, I'm getting the same guy at the same hospital. I'm going back under for surgery. Like I am. Terrified so then there were all of these little warning signs where I was like, okay I don't remember what happened in this phase of life. Okay, that's a warning sign Some traumas happen like my brain is trying to repress things then I would have to I would have like panic attacks randomly Brynne Erickson (15:23) Yeah. Ashley Ciminski (15:43) because I just never felt safe. never felt like my baby was safe. I was like, I'm gonna die or my baby's gonna die. It's inevitable. Like these intrusive thoughts were kind of taking over. ⁓ then, I just like, couldn't sleep, right? Like I was having nightmares. I was having like, just kind of replaying my birth over and over again or having a fear that I need to go back to the emergency room. And I was just like this. Brynne Erickson (15:48) Hmm. Ashley Ciminski (16:10) This may not be an average postpartum experience. Maybe there was some trauma here. So in a very long story long, kind of is how trauma is so personalized and different for each person. Brynne Erickson (16:13) ⁓ Yeah. Yeah, and I, this, had actually just thought of something. So when I was sending my oldest off to kindergarten, I was almost like debilitating, because I was so fearful of not being able to protect him. And I have never had like a personal experience of being threatened, taking advantage of or anything, but I do hear about that a lot on the news. and through social media and stuff. So is there such a thing of like having, like creating trauma or stress within ourselves based on other people's experiences? Is that a real thing? Ashley Ciminski (17:09) for sure, for sure. ⁓ Especially so, especially when you hear something that you can you have kids that same age, like we have this like connection, which you think is such a biological like thing to evolve with of like, hey, over by that mountain, there's a volcano. Brynne Erickson (17:30) Mm-hmm. Ashley Ciminski (17:30) Don't go by that volcano. And so every time you go by a mountain that looks like that volcano, you're like, that could be a volcano. Like we, our brains are so magnificent and like, great, that's dangerous. Got it. I will remember that. Yep. Yep. And especially when it's our kids where we've had full control over to them. And then at five, we're like, see you later. I'll see you in eight hours. Like it is releasing so much control. It is so hard. Brynne Erickson (17:41) Trying to protect us. Mm. Ashley Ciminski (17:58) So yeah, I would say it sounds like there's factors like that just bring up a lot of anxiety, the locus of control of like having to hand that over. But then also the root of it, the root of all fear is like your most valuable things. So your kids like the fear is also how strong your love is for him. So it doesn't it's hard because when you hear other people's traumatic experiences, we are we just are like. Okay, I need to do X, Y, and Z, so I'm never in that boat. And I even saw that with pregnancy. I don't know about you, but like, especially when you're trying to get pregnant and then you get pregnant, you're like, OK, I will not do anything to lose this baby or to have something go wrong with this child. And I remember like not drinking caffeine, not like getting in the hot tub. mean, all these things you really shouldn't do. But I was so strict with the rules because I had heard stories and I didn't want to be one of those stories. Brynne Erickson (18:43) Yeah. Yeah, and it can be really stressful. if it is, I'm trying to think of how to word this. like knowing at what point you should seek out professional help would be it's conflicting, it's inhibiting you from living a peaceful life. Is that a good way of putting it or how would you put that? Let's rephrase that again. Ashley Ciminski (19:36) I would seek out help when... Brynne Erickson (19:39) Yeah. Ashley Ciminski (19:42) I'm living my life around something that happened ⁓ or I am like going around like I'm altering my life out of fear. That's the best way to say it. I or I feel stuck. I feel unsafe. If any of those words resonate with you, I think those are really big warning bells or overwhelmed. If you feel constantly overwhelmed. your nervous system is telling you something like if you are feeling this constant state of burnout, how hard are you working to function like things like this because another aspect of trauma that I think is important to mention is there's so many different ways you can experience trauma. So there's like acute trauma where something a single event happens that smaller big Big tear, small T is kind of what we call them. Big tear, little T traumas. So an acute is just like a single event that happens. That can be like you get rear-ended. A natural disaster, like the earthquake in 2020. I've heard so many things about the earthquake in 2020 from my clients. Like this single acute trauma, okay? But then there's chronic trauma. So these are like repeated experiences that happen over a long period of time. So like we had talked about earlier with complex PTSD. So we're just kind of like crap keeps happening and I'm not okay. Like I'm this, happens a lot for my nurses or firefighters or things like that, where they're just kind of like getting these micro doses of trauma over a long period of time. And it's just part of the job. ⁓ But then it can also be from unsafe housing situations too. But, then, ⁓ Yeah, and then those are kind of the big ones. I'll let you know if I think of another one that I'm forgetting to mention, but there's just different ways that we can experience trauma, and some are big and some are small. I don't know if that answers your question. I don't know where I was going with that. ⁓ okay. Brynne Erickson (21:52) No, you're good. But the sound got really bad. So we're going to go back because I do like what it was. It was just a connection thing. So you were, it was where your nurses, your firefighters, little micro doses adding up over time. Ashley Ciminski (22:00) okay, okay. Yeah, so they have little microdoses that add up over time and what's hard is up. Brynne Erickson (22:14) Here, hold on, Ash. Say nurses. So a lot of my nurses clients, my firefighter clients, experience these microdoses. So let's just pick up from there. You ready? OK, go ahead. Ashley Ciminski (22:25) Yeah, a lot of my nurses clients and firefighter clients just have these micro doses of trauma over time. And it can be ⁓ repeated from each one kind of adds onto another. Like I have a lot of nurses that are like working with small babies and. There's things that happen to one baby that might happen to the next but they're always trying to pick up these pieces of like, okay I can't do that this time so that or I can't do this next time so that maybe that baby will live and then I can't do that next time maybe that baby will live and you're just kind of carrying all of these weights with you in hopes that one day you'll know everything and be the most perfect nurse ever and save everybody and But that's just not possible, which is is super hard Brynne Erickson (22:59) Mm. Ashley Ciminski (23:18) And then there's calm and that's more the chronic, the chronic trauma where complex trauma can be like in childhood where it's like repeated harm or repeated abuse from within a situation. Brynne Erickson (23:34) Okay, yeah, that's a good reminder. I think all of us have moments where we just feel stuck. So it's good to look inward and be like, is this something that I have been trying to handle on my own and I just can't anymore? And it's time for me to get help. Where might someone go to in order to find like the best match for what they're looking for with help, whether it's... abuse or religious stress and trauma or family stress and trauma? Is that something you just Google like a therapist for this kind of trauma? Ashley Ciminski (24:14) Yeah, and there's Psychology Today, which is kind of like the Google of Therapists. ⁓ And I know, like, I'm not personally on there just because my caseload's full and they make you pay every month, but that could be a way to do it. But you can also just Google in your area. I know that if anyone searches trauma therapists late in Utah, our clinic would come up. So I would kind of do those things. Or you just say, like, you could even start with Brynne Erickson (24:18) Okay. Okay. Ashley Ciminski (24:40) Here's what I'm experiencing. What does Dr. Google say I have? Okay, maybe I have anxiety, maybe I have trauma. Anxiety Trauma Therapy, Minnesota, wherever you're at. And ⁓ see what comes up for you. I strongly suggest reading the bios. And something a lot of people don't know that I think is valuable is you can do consultation appointments. They are usually free. They are 15 minutes where you can just see how you vibe with a therapist. And I find that to be super helpful. I, it took me three or four therapists before I found mine. And I, I asked for a consultation appointment because I was so tired of finding the wrong therapists and you kind of get through all the intake. Here's all of my crap. And then you're just like, well, if I have to start over, this isn't working. And that is very discouraging. So I, highly encourage anyone to do even an intake or say to a therapist or psychiatrist like this is what I'm going through. Can you help with that? Okay, next like it really just speeds up and like helps you not get ⁓ what do we call it? A vulnerability hangover where you just kind of share everything. emotionally vomit everything out that you've been keeping in all these years only to find someone who doesn't adequately catch it and then you just kind of feel this fatigue that follows and maybe even this regret for what you've said. That can be common when you don't feel like that person was the right person to tell all of that to. Brynne Erickson (26:23) Okay, so listen to your intuition. Like after you have, yeah, cause I would imagine that after you say something, if it feels validated or received, then that's probably a good match, would you say? Ashley Ciminski (26:27) thousand percent. yeah. yeah. And I think like looking back at my fails, if you will, ⁓ I remember the first the first therapist that I ever saw, she just didn't talk back and she just like wanted it, which is it is a modality. It's like the blank slate modality where you're just kind of like this is this is your empty journal. Fill it up. And I didn't need that. Brynne Erickson (26:46) Mm-hmm. Ashley Ciminski (27:08) And then the next one, she took half of the intake to tell me about her and what's going on in her life and her family drama. And that's not okay either. And just things like that. when you notice those warning signs and you're like, I don't like that. That is your, that is you telling you that it is not vibing with you. End of story. You don't even need to have a discussion. You could say, I don't know if this is going to work for me. I will get back to you if anything changes. Like you can really make it simple and kind. This isn't working for me. On we go. Brynne Erickson (27:46) Okay, let's dive into your clinic specifically. Your clinic is kind of unique. You use some different methods and approaches in order to help people. So what does your clinic offer? Ashley Ciminski (28:01) So we offer a variety of treatment care, however you view it. ⁓ And starting with our psychiatrists, which we have nurse practitioners and physician assistants that are specialized in psychiatric care. And word to the wise is you don't have to be like extremely like high acuity to receive psychiatric care. women, most women clients as well as my friends, we feel safest going to like an OBGYN to be like, hey, I'm feeling sad all the time, which is great. You're telling someone no shame in that. But that's like going to an OBGYN and saying I broke my arm. They would know what to do. and they would probably be able to know like where to refer you. But that is a lot more advanced than psychiatric help right now. So what I would suggest for anyone is looking for someone that's a little bit more specialized in psychiatric care just so that you can fine tune exactly what medication works for you, side effects, things like that. I just find it, it's amazing. And then they can also suggest other mental health related treatment plans that maybe your OB-GYN or primary care provider don't know about or don't have access to within their clinic. so starting there, have our psychiatric medication management. And then we have our therapists where... ⁓ Me and another therapist, we're specialized in postpartum and perinatal mental health ⁓ and paternal mental health as well. And trauma, most of us ⁓ are trained in a variety of different trauma therapies. ⁓ I am trained in EMDR, which that's just another way to heal trauma, which is eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing. Do you have any questions about that? Brynne Erickson (30:11) Yeah, all the questions. So what is EMDR? Is that what you said? What is that? How does it work? What would I expect if I signed up for that kind of a treatment? Ashley Ciminski (30:15) Mm hmm. Yes. So what it would look like, I really only do it with my established clients because I think trust is one of the most important foundations for trauma work. ⁓ I need you to trust me because I'm going to pull you in the crap and then I'm also going to pull you out of it ⁓ and get you back to your safe place and help your nervous system. ⁓ What's really cool about it is it uses bilateral stimulation. So it uses both sides of your brain. Some people practice it by having a light go back and forth or using their hand motions back and forth. I find that's really hard, especially for my ADHD clients, to focus on the back and forth. So what I have is these electric pads that they hold in their hands and they just alternate vibrating while I talk to them and I go through this script. and I monitor your body's reaction to things and we pull you in the trauma. We talk about it. We notice what's coming up for you and I pull you back out and we go to your safe place and we we like we regulate your nervous system and then I'm like, are you ready to go back in? Let's go back in. What happened that day? And we just kind of do this yo-yo in the trauma back to the safe place in a trauma back to the safe place while your brain is doing the bilateral stimulation of having both sides of your brain activated. It acts very similar similarly to REM processing because you're giving that memory a once over a twice over like you just keep kind of reliving it until your your nervous system and your mind are not as triggered by it. So how that really helps trauma is you'll take an event like a car accident and we're just going through each step. What's coming up for you each step? What's coming up for you? And then suddenly you can tell the story. and self-regulate because it's no longer like, my gosh, I'm reliving this. I feel completely like out of control and overwhelmed. Instead, you can be like, I can talk about this and I can return to self and soothe and I can go back into it and I can soothe and then pretty soon you don't even notice you're doing that. And it is so cool and so powerful. Brynne Erickson (32:33) Yeah, that would be incredibly empowering because you can't get rid of the memories. Like you can't just blank slate, get rid of it. Um, and so it's learning the tools to be able to move forward and have more, I guess, control over your reaction when it comes up. And I love how it kind of like desensitizes, um, the severity of that memory of that scenario too. Ashley Ciminski (32:37) Mm-mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (33:03) That's really cool. Ashley Ciminski (33:04) And when we look at the alarm bell scenario that I used at the beginning of this is like if I can quiet turn down the volume on that alarm and teach you tools on how to disable that alarm, it's not as scary. It's not like, my gosh, there's a fire. And it's like, there's not a fire. You just heard a dog barking again. And that's what happened before your car accident. Like you're just like, ⁓ little alarm bell. We're good. We're safe. I'm good. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (33:13) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I acknowledge it. Yeah, but check in. We don't have to ignore it, but we don't have to freak out. We don't have to panic. We don't have to flee. We're not going to die. That's cool. Absolutely. Ashley Ciminski (33:34) Check it. Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And there's so much power to that self understanding too of just like when some and I mean, I think that's also a buzzword is triggers and trigger warnings, but. Brynne Erickson (33:49) Yes. Yeah. Ashley Ciminski (33:51) And a very clinical level, when you recognize your triggers, they are your job and you can regulate them and you can work with your provider to regulate them. And then you can just like live your life without having other people modify themselves for your triggers, because that's also hard where it's like we need to put the dogs away because Brin's coming over and when a dog barks, she freaks out. that is that is just. Brynne Erickson (34:01) Yeah. Ashley Ciminski (34:15) as hard for the person that they're catering to as it is for the people trying to involve them. And the more that you can own your triggers and have that autonomy of like, I didn't have control over myself in that situation. I didn't have control that that car was gonna hit me, but I have control now and I'm good. Brynne Erickson (34:19) Yeah. Yes. you Yeah, that is super empowering. Taking your circumstances back and ownership for them and control of them. That's really cool. Now you offer some other, do you offer two other? Yes, what's the next one we're going to talk about? Ashley Ciminski (34:35) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Two others, yeah. We do TMS therapy, which is trans magnetic stimulation and where you wear like this helmet on your head and it sends shock waves to your brain. And it looks kind of medieval to me if I'm going to be honest with you, but I've seen amazing things with it where people will go in and they'll sit down and they'll have an intention much like with energy work or any other type of healing process of just like self understanding, self love. And then as Brynne Erickson (35:07) Yeah. Ashley Ciminski (35:21) the shock goes to your brain, because they map your brain. They make sure it's in a very safe spot. There's a lot of scientific research on this, but they make sure it's in this specific spot. And then it just kind of regenerates maybe a part of your brain that is dormant or used to the same rivets in the road. And it allows for maybe new things to be stimulated there, new growth. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (35:47) Mm-hmm. Ashley Ciminski (35:51) What I think is really cool about TMS, there is a great time commitment. It's usually daily for a week or two or three, depending on whatever you and your provider agree on. But for weeks at a time, every day. But what I've seen when people come out of it, especially for seasonal depression, they feel hopeful. Brynne Erickson (36:02) huh. you Ashley Ciminski (36:15) Hope is probably one of the hardest things to come by in mental health. And when you're able to have just that little bit of hope of like, maybe it'll be okay. Maybe it won't be a hard winter. Maybe I won't end my life this week. Just allowing that little bit of wiggle room is just super important for mental health. Brynne Erickson (36:24) Mm-hmm. you Yeah. When I learned that your brain can create new pathways, like essentially grow, I was like, wait, what? Like it was so mind boggling to me. But again, like if we think of how our muscles can grow and, um, our skin grows, our hair grows, like everything is either in a state of dormancy or growing or atrophy, right? Where they're getting smaller. Our brain is no. Ashley Ciminski (36:41) Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (37:04) exception. Like, it is fascinating to me. Ashley Ciminski (37:05) Yes. Yeah. Right. Like we can literally like heal a bone, but we thought our brains were like stuck forever. Like it's kind of silly when you think about it that way. And I, I think that's a great way to go into our last option is ketamine therapy, which ketamine, it has a lot of stigma around it. And I just invite everybody to just kind of like put their stigmas in a little jar and listen with like open ears, because it is a very, it has helped so many lives. Brynne Erickson (37:12) Right? Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Agreed. Ashley Ciminski (37:38) and it does a very similar process. you take the ketamine, which it can be administered different ways. At our clinic, we do Spravato, which is like a nasal spray in your nostrils and it sends you on your way. Or you can do inner muscular. So like a shot in your upper arm and you come in, you're in this cozy room, you lay down on this chair that like turns into a bed. We give you a Brynne Erickson (38:06) Nice. Ashley Ciminski (38:07) Clean blanket, clean pillow, an eye mask, a throw up bag if needed. Sometimes people get nauseous, but we also give you Zofran to help with that. And you come in with an intention. The lights are dimmed. Everyone that works there is super. Brynne Erickson (38:14) you Ashley Ciminski (38:25) attentive to attention and mental health and just kind of where you at today, how can we help you, things like that. And then you get your dose, whether that's in your nose or in the arm. Other clinics do offer IV. Yeah, we just don't at ours ⁓ for different reasons, but it really just depends on the person and the experience they want to have. ⁓ so then you get sent off your way and we call it a flight. Brynne Erickson (38:39) intravenous. Okay. Ashley Ciminski (38:53) in a lot of ways, not in a lot of ways, we call it the pre-flight and then the flight because you just kind of separate your soul from your body for a minute and the ways that that can be helpful. So like when we're in the moment and there's this separate experience, it really allows for like, I am a person, but I am also just me. And what do I want to experience? and you kind of let the inner healer take the wheel from there. I like to give my clients this analogy of like, it's just you and your intention in the boat and your inner healer is the water deciding where it goes. And for example, I have people come in with ⁓ grief, trying to understand the grief. they're someone that they love died or chose to leave them in this life or ⁓ Brynne Erickson (39:45) Yeah. Ashley Ciminski (39:52) even just what could have been my what my life could have been had had I made different choices and they kind of take that of like self understanding or releasing sadness or forgiveness. I've seen forgiveness be a super powerful intention and you're sitting there with forgiveness and inner healer takes control and some people have visual experiences. Some people just have this like deep feeling. We offer you music, but you're welcome to use your own. And we suggest not doing any music with words so that it doesn't steer the waters, if you will. ⁓ And when you're in that experience, it really, it really takes you on this euphoric ride. But sometimes that's hard and especially hard for people who aren't used to relinquishing control. Brynne Erickson (40:32) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Ashley Ciminski (40:51) That is like the hardest part and one of the biggest ways that I, cause I do ketamine assisted psychotherapy where I basically do therapy while people are dosed with ketamine and I'm like your guide, I'm your tour guide, but I, Yeah, and if you would like more of a tour guide and doing it with a therapist, I'm like, where are we at? What are we doing? How are we feeling? Like, I mean, I'm not bogging down your experience. I'm more just checking in. Brynne Erickson (41:02) Right, right. They're never alone. There's always someone there monitoring them, guiding them through the experience. Mm. Okay. Ashley Ciminski (41:20) And then at the end we do a lot of processing, but we'll get there. And what I think is really cool is whether it's a quote unquote good or bad experience, it's what was needed to happen. And it all serves a purpose in the end. And what I find to be amazing about that is, I mean, I've had clients who cry for the first time in 10 years. And that was the worst experience. That was the worst experience. I sobbed my face off and I'm like, yeah, but how did it feel? What if it wasn't bad? What if it just was like you surrendered to the ketamine and and that's what it showed you. What did that what did it feel like to experience that? And people say like cathartic or I felt hideous crying and it's like, why did you feel hideous? And it's like, because I felt judged. It was just like, what who taught you that you would get judged? Like everything has a purpose. So whether it's quote unquote good or bad, it was needed. Brynne Erickson (42:23) Yeah. Ashley Ciminski (42:25) And then you take from that experience like this transformative like neural pathways where you're just like, maybe I can cry and the world doesn't end. Maybe, maybe. And then you have a really hard day at work and you've like filled tears on your face. You're like, I'm crying for the first time in years and the world still isn't ending and I feel more regulated and I don't feel as angry. I feel like I can not take this home to my family and I can just have a bad day and leave it there or whatever. Brynne Erickson (42:48) you Yeah. Ashley Ciminski (42:56) And then it just sprinkles like this miracle grow throughout your mind and just allows like this nourishment to take place of like, what if life can be different than the way that I have lived thus far? And what if that can be for good? Like you just kind of approach it with curiosity and trust. Brynne Erickson (43:13) Yes. Ashley Ciminski (43:17) And it rarely, if ever, will lead you astray. Brynne Erickson (43:23) That's so fascinating. like the ketamine kind of takes off like that inner monitor, like the, we don't say that. We shouldn't do that. We don't cry. Like it takes it, the self awareness kind of, right? And allows you to just show up authentically. So I love that even though they come out of it being like, that was so bad. I wasn't, I shouldn't have done that. It'd be like, but you did do that. So what does that mean? Ashley Ciminski (43:38) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (43:53) Like, what could we make this mean? And you get to decide, which is really, I think that's a really beautiful and empowering thing. that, opportunity for, this is how my authentic self really wanted to manifest right now. Huh, that's so interesting. Ashley Ciminski (43:56) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it may not even be like this visual experience that like signifies anything to you. Like I have one client, she's always flying over a skyline and it just changes where she goes. And which I think is so cool. I would love, I'd love to experience that. And, but since that's that miracle girl is sprinkled, if you will, at that point you get to choose what plants you want to put in it. So you come out of ketamine and that's what we call integration. You're like, okay, so that was super relaxing and chill. Cool. Brynne Erickson (44:17) Mm-hmm. Ashley Ciminski (44:43) I want to start working out more. I want to... I want to cook myself the best meal and like savor it or I want to have a bonfire with my friends and have like this genuine heart to heart connection because I feel like that's what I really need and you have that miracle grow there and then you put whatever flowers you feel like are needed and it just like flourishes. So it's amazing when people are like, I want this for me. I've been feeling so alone right now. And then it's like, how can we integrate that into your ⁓ How can we integrate that post-ketamine? And then it just creates a new neural pathway where maybe you're having a hard day instead of your brain saying I'm alone and nobody wants me here. It says like who can I call or Yeah, because if there's not just a equals b anymore you kind of have like ABC Like there's another option there Brynne Erickson (45:21) into your life, yeah. Mm. How can I take care of myself? Right. Uh-huh. Ashley Ciminski (45:46) And that can be scary for a lot of people too, because they're just like, what if I can't change? And I always challenge like, but what if you can? Like that is just as cool. Like that is just as scary and empowering as what if I don't? Because I've never seen anyone who walks away from ketamine worse off. ⁓ And I, and I'm not saying that in a general experience. I'm just saying in the last three years I have worked with ketamine pretty much every day and Brynne Erickson (45:53) Yes! Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ashley Ciminski (46:15) I've not seen anyone leave worse off. But obviously it's up to you and your provider if it's the safest option for you. But if you're doing it in a safe setting with a pure intention, what could go wrong? Brynne Erickson (46:29) Man, I'm super intrigued by it. Though I am kind of, I do not like laughing gas. I don't like even Percocet. So, but I am also a very like working with therapists. I'm very open and ⁓ vulnerable. So, but I am intrigued by ketamine. We'll have to see what my future holds, but I'm, it's nice cause I'm not like afraid of it. Ashley Ciminski (46:35) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Thank Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (46:56) When it first came out, like, that's stupid. Like, why would anybody do that? That sounds terrifying. But now that I've gotten more information about it and heard about some very positive and helpful experiences, I'm like, maybe this actually could be helpful for people. doesn't mean it has to be for me, but it doesn't mean that it has to be wrong for everybody else, right? Ashley Ciminski (46:56) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep, for sure. And even who knows, maybe in this season of life, it's just kind of an option for you. Or maybe in the next season of life or future down the road, it feels like you feel more of a calling to it and you're educated on it. And like what I think is cool about it is there's no commitment. Like if you just do it once, see how it goes that Brynne Erickson (47:24) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There you go. Ashley Ciminski (47:40) that's fine. Like you don't have to do the like full treatment plan to get anything out of it. I think some people like especially with medication, it takes four to six weeks for most mental health medication to kick in. Where this you receive benefits within immediate like immediately following your session to 24 to 48 hours after and that can last up to two weeks to a month at a time. So when you get those kind of benefits, it is unlike any other medication. Brynne Erickson (47:51) Right. Ashley Ciminski (48:10) And it really helps with like suicidal ideation, addiction, like things that medication has a really hard time touching, at least not immediately. That it's great in anybody's toolbox, even if you don't access it now. Brynne Erickson (48:24) Yeah. Very cool. So Ash, how do we know if a clinic is like a credible clinic or a safe and yeah, an actual clinic that is worth trying? Ashley Ciminski (48:45) that is hard because I think ketamine now that it's getting on the the bandwagon, if you will, especially with like shows talking about it and stuff. ⁓ I think it's hard to find. ⁓ It's hard to find people that have high values with I wouldn't say it's hard to find. It just takes work maybe to find ones that have intentions that match yours, but I would look for words like. Brynne Erickson (48:47) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ashley Ciminski (49:13) Therapeutic support that's probably like one of the biggest ones like if you have something big come up Is there anyone there to debrief with is there? professionals nearby And then I would also think it'd be worth looking into like are they giving you? Education on what ketamine is how to prepare for it ahead of time and what to do Right after so that you can get the most out of it Or they just trying to get your money and send you out the door Yeah Brynne Erickson (49:17) Mm. Yeah, okay. Okay, awesome. So remind us what is the name of the clinic that you work at in Layton? Ashley Ciminski (49:48) It's Salt Lake Psychiatry. It's in Lake and Utah. And ⁓ we do telehealth and in person. So whatever anybody suggests or whatever is best for anybody, try to we try to meet the clients where they're at, not necessarily at your house, but like emotionally. ⁓ shoot. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (50:09) Yes. Ashley Ciminski (50:12) but we try to meet clients where they're at emotionally and mentally of just like, is telehealth best for you on your lunch break and you're in the car crying? That's fine. We can make that work. But we have a great, I have great coworkers. This is the best practice I've ever worked for. And I can't say enough good things about like, everybody truly believes in like the power of healing that I think. finding any clinic that resembles that, again, can't go wrong. Brynne Erickson (50:45) Awesome. Okay, Ash, you've taught us so much and shared some, given us opportunities for open-mindedness and curiosity. So thank you so much for your time. Ashley Ciminski (50:56) No problem. Thanks for having me. I'll come back whenever you need me. Bye. Brynne Erickson (50:59) Perfect, thanks, see ya.